Keep hitting a guy after he's down? vid

[IronFist]

Warning: it's pretty graphic

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/7/Fight-533306.html

I heard the guy died.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Love the way the no one even put down their beer to help him, LOL !

Well, if he did die, not only is Mr.Yellow in trouble with the law, but so are the guys that STOPPED the people from helping Mr.Red when Mr.Yellow was beating him while he was helpless.
What have we learned from all this?
Don't elbow people and just stand there with a stupid look on your face.
Keep your chin down when getting punched.
Careful who you pick a fight with, he may not have an "off switch".
If they guy did die, Mr.Yellow wil also learn the valuable lesson of "degree of severity".

[David Jamieson]

actually, if this is the usa:

yellow is not in trouble as he has a legit self defense claim because red attacked him first and there is a witness.

only one guy, the witness appeared to be interfering, but ultimately, it was broken up quickly.

if red died, yellow will not be held at fault because he was attacked first.

I believe that when that happens you are allowed to defend yourself, especially in a fist fight.

[1bad65]

actually, if this is the usa:

yellow is not in trouble as he has a legit self defense claim because red attacked him first and there is a witness.

Your wrong. Even in Texas, which has a broad use of the term 'self-defense' he would be charged.

The law says you are entitled to defend yourself UNTIL the threat is removed. A guy who is out cold, face down is no longer a threat.

The 'Hockey Dad' case in the USA is good example.

[naja]

I believe that when that happens you are allowed to defend yourself, especially in a fist fight.

Beating the life out of someone doesn't fall into the same category as defending oneself.

Civil cases can be brought after the fact, even if the defendant won the initial criminal case with a self defense plea. Ever heard the term "excessive retaliation"?

[SimonM]

I thought the reasonable force limitation was used in US law - except in cases of home invasion...

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually, if this is the usa:

yellow is not in trouble as he has a legit self defense claim because red attacked him first and there is a witness.

only one guy, the witness appeared to be interfering, but ultimately, it was broken up quickly.

if red died, yellow will not be held at fault because he was attacked first.

I believe that when that happens you are allowed to defend yourself, especially in a fist fight.

Incorrect.
I see that Ibad65 already addressed that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought the reasonable force limitation was used in US law - except in cases of home invasion...

Even in home invasions, though the degree does fall on the courts definition.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your wrong. Even in Texas, which has a broad use of the term 'self-defense' he would be charged.

The law says you are entitled to defend yourself UNTIL the threat is removed. A guy who is out cold, face down is no longer a threat.

The 'Hockey Dad' case in the USA is good example.

Yep and to top it all off, everythign was on video and it shows that, while RedMan hit first he hardly did any damage, certainly the degree of the retaliation was FAR ABOVE the attack, not to mention RedMan was down and defensless while Yellowman hit him over and over and over and even after that stomped and kicked him in the head and, to top it all off, left him there.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

actually, if this is the usa:

yellow is not in trouble as he has a legit self defense claim because red attacked him first and there is a witness.

only one guy, the witness appeared to be interfering, but ultimately, it was broken up quickly.

if red died, yellow will not be held at fault because he was attacked first.

I believe that when that happens you are allowed to defend yourself, especially in a fist fight.

Are you serious? Good thing you are not an attorney...

On the other hand, you should KNOW WHAT THE LAW IS CONCERNING SELF DEFENSE IF YOU ARE TEACHING PEOPLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES....DON'TCHA THINK?

A little irresponsible if you don't...

[SimonM]

I watched that video last night.

That wouldn't constitute reasonable self defense anywhere.

In David's defense he lives in Canada and, as such, only really needs to be versed on Canadian defense laws to be an effective instructor. I doubt you expect American instructors to know Mexican defense law after all. ;)

[lkfmdc]

He got elbowed once and then there was considerable distance between them, the guy who elbowed didn't advance toward him, thus the entire episode would NOT be "self defense"

AFter the guy fell down completely out, my guess would be you might be even able to charge him with attempted murder

[sanjuro_ronin]

I sent this clip to a buddy of mine who is prosecuter for the Crown here in Ontario and he said that not only would YellowMan be charged, the one guy that stops the bystander from interfereing/helping, would also be charged as an acomplice at worse and with interference at least.

[David Jamieson]

ok, so i can accept that legally I am incorrect.

Having said that, while the guy went overboard, I see that as well, he was attacked first and in my opinion was in the right for giving the guy a licking.

That the guy in red went down like a sack of potatoes and should have been left after that I agree, but the nature of rage is strange and many people can't regulate it or control it.

I personally would have reciprocated after being attacked like that. I think most of you would too and I seriously doubt that you would care much about the law if someone elbowed you in the face.

[SimonM]

I sent this clip to a buddy of mine who is prosecuter for the Crown here in Ontario and he said that not only would YellowMan be charged, the one guy that stops the bystander from interfereing/helping, would also be charged as an acomplice at worse and with interference at least.

**** straight.

I mean... in some ways I thought that guy was even more reprehensible than the guy issuing the beating. I mean... at least that guy had something that could resemble provocation even if his reation was entirely out of proportion. But for a third party to interfere with a person who clearly came in to break up the situation....

Disgusting.

I hope they both faced charges, wherever they were.

David: There is reciprocation and then there is reciprocation.

Understandable reciprocation would be punching the guy once and telling him to go screw himself.

Beating the guy into the pavement and then continuing to beat him for a while after he dropped is not understandable.

[David Jamieson]

**** straight.

I mean... in some ways I thought that guy was even more reprehensible than the guy issuing the beating. I mean... at least that guy had something that could resemble provocation even if his reation was entirely out of proportion. But for a third party to interfere with a person who clearly came in to break up the situation....

Disgusting.

I hope they both faced charges, wherever they were.

David: There is reciprocation and then there is reciprocation.

Understandable reciprocation would be punching the guy once and telling him to go screw himself.

Beating the guy into the pavement and then continuing to beat him for a while after he dropped is not understandable.

I don't have a problem understanding what I see. I don't think anyone can honestly say that they would accurately meter their own rage.

There was alcohol involved it seems and I just don't have so much faith in humanity when it comes to proactivity in regards to altercations that turn to violence.

When sh!t goes down, it goes down.

just sayin

[SimonM]

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't try to justify what happened in that video.

[seisei]

I guess the point here is, that's how it happens in the street,no cops no lawyers,no friends, just whatever your self defense style or method is "BE READY at all times--if possible practice always .I assume both were drinking
M

[David Jamieson]

i don't think it matters whether we justify the actions or not.

In one perspective the action is justifiable although the degree of reaction is more than what was required.

In another perspective, it was totally wrong to react in that manner at all, I guess. Or I get the sense that some people are putting it forth that the guy should've reacted differently.

My perspective is that if someone were to elbow me upside my head for whatever reason, Then I would do my best to hurt that person and to end the possibility of them doing it to me again.

So, while I think that you shouldn't kick at someones head while they are down, I do understand how it could happen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Careful who you pick a fight with, he may not have an "off switch".


To echo Dave, see above.

[golden arhat]

regardless of what the law says


i really enjoyed that video, like really.



like more than i should be enjoying that video ahaha

[stonewarrior67]

hey here's the real deal on this and listen good as I wont say it again....what were we talking about????

Oh yeah! Legally and I've seen this before...the guy has every right to defend himself...a prosecutor, even a poor one, could understand the guy nailing him in the back of the head a few times after he's down...the guys ****ed...who would'nt be after taking a elbow to the mush? you would, I would, the jury and judge would.

but after he stood up and then put the boot to the guys head that is a criminal act in any state in the US and would be a winner at trial.

Just my (un)educated 2 cents

SW

[sanjuro_ronin]

hey here's the real deal on this and listen good as I wont say it again....what were we talking about????

Oh yeah! Legally and I've seen this before...the guy has every right to defend himself...a prosecutor, even a poor one, could understand the guy nailing him in the back of the head a few times after he's down...the guys ****ed...who would'nt be after taking a elbow to the mush? you would, I would, the jury and judge would.

but after he stood up and then put the boot to the guys head that is a criminal act in any state in the US and would be a winner at trial.

Just my (un)educated 2 cents

SW

Here is the thing, it was caught on video.
Now, picture that video in a courtroom and picture the jury seeing it.
Picture them seeing RedMan hiting Yellowman in the face ONCE and backing off and then seeing Yellowman hitting redman, knocking him out and hitting him over and over and over and over and over and over while he is defenceless and then seeing him kick and stomp on his head.
Do you know of any jury or judge that would see ANY part of that as self-defense?

[CFT]

Good point s_r, it stopped being self defence when RedMan stepped back. It was pure retaliation. Maybe drunken p1ssed-offness is a defence in the USA.

[Mr Punch]

Even a couple of punches could've just about been wangled as self-defence: Yellow had no idea whether Redman would try to sucker elbow him again. As soon as Red hit the deck, it should be jail time.

[Scott R. Brown]

How about,

The moral is:

Control you temper!

[IronFist]

Wait.

So you guys are saying it's ok to hit someone but then if immediately you back off, the other guy's not legally allowed to hit you back cuz he's no longer "defending himself?"

:wtf:

[SimonM]

Not OK. The initial strike is assault and illegal.

We are just saying that, from a legal perspective, it's not justifiable self defense to hit him back if he backs off immediately. Legally you are supposed to just call the police and file a complaint for assault in such a case....

Legally...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wait.

So you guys are saying it's ok to hit someone but then if immediately you back off, the other guy's not legally allowed to hit you back cuz he's no longer "defending himself?"

:wtf:

So, there is no in between from doing nothing and beating on an unconciousperson?

[SimonM]

If somebody elbowed me in the face I'd hit him back... but I wouldn't attempt to murder him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If somebody elbowed me in the face I'd hit him back... but I wouldn't attempt to murder him.

I would say,:
"Why do you do this? I feel no pain".
:D

[SimonM]

Rotflmfao bciwtwsiwctael!

[IronFist]

So, there is no in between from doing nothing and beating on an unconciousperson?

I think the guy was defending himself.

However he should have stopped when it was obvious he was owning the other guy.

[Water Dragon]

Guy in red didn't back off. The guy in yellow backed up after he got clocked, and the guy in red took 2 or 3 steps toward him with his hands up. THAT's when the guy in yellow went bat sh!t in him. I think it was self defense up until the guy in red hit the ground.