Of relevance to Wing Chun

[HardWork8]

I just found the following short clip from a DVD made by sifu Douglas Wong, where he demonstrates some Snake techniques that should be of interest to Wing Chun practicioners.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lKR48H30UG4

Sorry, if it has been posted before.

[Mr Punch]

I just found the following short clip from a DVD made by sifu Douglas Wong, where he demonstrates some Snake techniques that should be of interest to Wing Chun practicioners.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lKR48H30UG4

Sorry, if it has been posted before.I liked it.

Can't see it's relevance to my wing chun. I don't do any hand conditioning that would safely enable me to use finger strikes, finger strikes are overrated in Yip Man lines even within biu gee, and I don't any sideways heading strikes unless I'm well inside working in or getting out of a clinch.

Maybe it has more relevance to mainland styles.


That stuff either will not work or is such low-percentage to make it useless.If you have the position, you've conditioned your hands, don't have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don't want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, I don't see why it wouldn't work. However, those four criteria make it pretty low percentage!


This just underscores the problem of having nonfighters, like Wong, teaching fighting -- they are the blind leading the blind. They have no significant, useful experience with fighting (and trying to use their "techniques") to draw upon, and so can't develop fighting skill, judgment, or understanding.Sorry, do you know this bloke?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Finger strikes can and do work, if you have properly conditioned fingers, something that very few do.
Look up Shinjo Sensei from the Uechi-ryu and see what he can do with his fingers.

[t_niehoff]

If you have the position, you've conditioned your hands, don't have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don't want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, I don't see why it wouldn't work. However, those four criteria make it pretty low percentage!


That's precisely my point -- people don't "see" because they approach this from a theoretical POV (you THINK it should work). Instead of approaching it from theory, from conjecture, why not approach it from the POV of experience? When, where, etc. have we ever seen it work?

Try this experiment, get a decent opponent, someone with some good boxing, muay thai, MMA, etc. skills and with some decent attributes, then have him put on goggles, and spar with you at 100% -- tell him to really try to knock you out, take you down, pound the living daylights out of you. Then, you try to hit him on the goggles with your fingers. See what happens.

[Mr Punch]

That's precisely my point -- people don't "see" because they approach this from a theoretical POV (you THINK it should work). Instead of approaching it from theory, from conjecture, why not approach it from the POV of experience? When, where, etc. have we ever seen it work? Early wrestlers in Virginia were infamous for gouging out eyes, biting off noses, ripping off ears etc... where have we ever seen them!? :rolleyes:

Oh. (http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm)


Try this experiment, get a decent opponent, someone with some good boxing, muay thai, MMA, etc. skills and with some decent attributes, then have him put on goggles, and spar with you at 100% -- tell him to really try to knock you out, take you down, pound the living daylights out of you. Then, you try to hit him on the goggles with your fingers. See what happens.Blah blah blah... I don't need to! I've gone the full contact route, and I don't pretend to have the conditioning, the skills or the will to do what that guy was advocating in that vid: and I do know enough good submissions not to need it.

But my point still stands: let me rephrase it as you don't seem to have understood it the first time...

It's low percentage, but...
If you have the position, you've conditioned your hands, don't have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don't want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, it would work.

Oh, and Terence... do you know that guy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

somewhat relevant:

A buddy of mine and I will debating the use of fixed blades, not wither they work, but more like the size of them and things of that nature.
We got to the knife used in the move "the Hunted", called the tracker, not an ideal fighting knife to be sure, but a good survival/all purpose type blade.
His view was that it was too bulky and too heavy and too un-balanced to be of any good as a decent fighting blade, my point was that if one trained with it, the law of specificty would "take over" and and one would be as good with it as ones training allowed you to be.
He argued not, so I gave him a Khurki, far bulkier than the tracker and mentioned how well the Ghurkahs use them, he was unconvinced so we "sparred" a bit ( as much as one can with a live blade, LOL), he afterwards agreed that someone well trained with a heavier blade can make it work, though we were BOTH in agreement that it is far than the ideal blade for knife fighting.

[Vajramusti]

You have to have a top quality Gurkha to show you what a kukhri(of various sizes) can really do.

As in other activities there are differences between rank and file and the elite.



joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

Early wrestlers in Virginia were infamous for gouging out eyes, biting off noses, ripping off ears etc... where have we ever seen them!? :rolleyes:

Oh. (http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm)


I see . . . so your evidence is that these things have been done (on the ground and Wong showed it being done in stand-up) by poorly skilled fighters against other poorly skilled fighters in the past. Do you think it wise to base conclusions about fighting on what one poorly skilled guy can do to another?



Blah blah blah... I don't need to! I've gone the full contact route, and I don't pretend to have the conditioning, the skills or the will to do what that guy was advocating in that vid: and I do know enough good submissions not to need it.


You may have done "full contact" but that isn't what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about drawing conclusions from evidence (experience) as opposed to theory or conjecture.



But my point still stands: let me rephrase it as you don't seem to have understood it the first time...

It's low percentage, but...
If you have the position, you've conditioned your hands, don't have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don't want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, it would work.


And let me repeat, no, you BELIEVE BASED ON SPECULATION that it would work.



Oh, and Terence... do you know that guy?

He's quite well-known.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have to have a top quality Gurkha to show you what a kukhri(of various sizes) can really do.

As in other activities there are differences between rank and file and the elite.



joy chaudhuri

That was my point Joy...

[Mr Punch]

I see . . . so your evidence is that these things have been done (on the ground and Wong showed it being done in stand-up) by poorly skilled fighters against other poorly skilled fighters in the past. Do you think it wise to base conclusions about fighting on what one poorly skilled guy can do to another?No, that was not evidence for this case. I've told you I think it's very low percentage, and I'm not defending Wong any further than to say it could work. I was using that example as one example of how things have been proven to work without video evidence.

It's a long time since I read that article, but I think you should reread it too - I was under the impression that some of those guys mentioned were the pioneers who brought the long-continued traditions of English bare-knuckle and catch to the US, and some of them therefore would have been very capable fighters, not just 'a poorly skilled guy'.

The rest of your post seems to be suggesting based on this one case that I don't understand scientific method, and that my whole logic process is ****ed. Quite funny, but doesn't need an answer.


He's quite well-known.OK, I didn't know that.

[anerlich]

A guy I know who is highly skilled in WC and other MA's, and has extensive ring, security, and streetfighting experience, and is fairly amoral as regards hurting people, doesn't use "finger strikes" per se, but uses the thumb in the eye, from the inside corner outward to good effect.

It's not a stopper against a fully committed opponent, but he claims it works in situations to stop one guy temporarily while he's dealing with another, or to indicate to someone looking for a fist fight that he's biting off more than he wanted to chew.


Look up Shinjo Sensei from the Uechi-ryu and see what he can do with his fingers.

I've seen demos of Karate guys that can split apples in mid-air and break boards with their fingers. Impressive. It must take loads of conditioning. But then again, I'd bet these guys can punch like battering rams as well.


He's quite well-known.

Probably more so in the US. He's been around for decades, one of his books was my first MA-related book purchase in 1977. He has a number of students or associates that you often see in bit parts in Hollywood movies or on TV, Like James Liu (?) who was in Perfect Weapon, and Al Leong, the Asian guy with long hair from Lethal weapon.

He's always been a bit on the pudgy side for a supposedly top class martial artist IMO, but his books were OK.

[Liddel]

None of that related to my VT at all.

The snake style which i think relates to VT body mechanics, in my VT - is quite different to what is shown in the vid.
My elbow behaviour and Wrist hinge action (connected to my horse) where i develope power/force in actions are not even similar at all to whats in the clip.

It certainly had me laughing though when he mentioned using finger techs on dead rabbits LOL

Just like boards... dead rabbits dont hit back. :D:cool:

DREW

[HardWork8]

I liked it.

I am glad :). Douglas Wong is a good communicator and one needs to be one in order to put forward the sometimes unusual techniques and concepts that are present withing the kung fu family of styles.

He seems to have the "Kung fu Essence". Or at least that is how he comes across in his videos. I have 3 earlier videos from him.


Can't see it's relevance to my wing chun. I don't do any hand conditioning that would safely enable me to use finger strikes,
That is a pity because the relevant hand conditioning can open up your combat options. However, I appreciate that nowadays many people don't have the time to put into such training, specially if the MA school does not have this training in its curriculum.


finger strikes are overrated in Yip Man lines even within biu gee, and I don't any sideways heading strikes unless I'm well inside working in or getting out of a clinch.
As far as Biu Jee in my lineage of Wing Chun goes, I have been told that there are two versions that are taught. One version is the standard one and the other is the version that is taught to the few. I suspect that the snake type finger strikes will have more relevance in the latter version.


Maybe it has more relevance to mainland styles.

It looks like it so far, but then I wouldn't be suprised if the Snake manifests itself in one of the Yip Man lineages as well, because I really believe that all Wing Chun has these elements. Maybe a Yip Man practitioner can pleasantly surprise us in this thread.:)


If you have the position, you've conditioned your hands, don't have much knowledge of submissions and for some reason don't want the uncertainty of just hammering his head, I don't see why it wouldn't work. However, those four criteria make it pretty low percentage!
There is a 5th important and very fundamental factor and that is the internal training that will creat the softness/subtleness needed to execute the required techniques and with the correct energy.

The Snake hints at the internals of Wing Chun. Wong's description of what he teaches as "Female" also hints at this fact.

The Snake (together with the Crane, Tiger and the Dragon) is a logical area of investigation/crosstraining for serious Wing Chun practitioners, that is and as always, after they have built a good understanding of the core style first.


Sorry, do you know this bloke?
I know the question was not aimed at me, but here goes. Douglas Wong has experience in various Kung Fu styles INCLUDING WING CHUN and has been around for a zillion years.

He has created his own kung fu style called "White Lotus". However, unlike the various hybrid "kung fu" styles that one sees so often nowadays, his system seems to be the real deal.

[HardWork8]

None of that related to my VT at all.
I believe that it does. Perhaps some sifus who teach it, do not give these aspects any emphasis, for whatever reason.


My elbow behaviour and Wrist hinge action (connected to my horse) where i develope power/force in actions are not even similar at all to whats in the clip.
The Snake element in most Wing Chun will refer to the various finger strikes to vulnerable areas and to the internal/softness training necessary to make those strikes work.

The softness is also relevant in the "listening" ability that is present in all high level kung fu.


It certainly had me laughing though when he mentioned using finger techs on dead rabbits LOL
That is because he forgot to tell us that he first killed the rabbits with his Tiger strikes.;)


dead rabbits dont hit back. :D:cool:
I don't think that anyone will hit you back once you have taken out their eyeball...If they do, then you better run fast...:eek:

[HardWork8]

I see . . . so your evidence is that these things have been done (on the ground and Wong showed it being done in stand-up) by poorly skilled fighters against other poorly skilled fighters in the past.
I suspect that you wouldn't want one of these "poorly skilled" fighters coming at you in a bar.


Do you think it wise to base conclusions about fighting on what one poorly skilled guy can do to another?
"Poorly skilled" guys have been gouging each other's eyes and biting noses for centuries. What makes you think that a fighter trained in kung fu cannot do the same?


You may have done "full contact" but that isn't what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about drawing conclusions from evidence (experience) as opposed to theory or conjecture.
Talking of experience, how many Snake stylists have you defeated in real fights, recently? Actually, how many ANY stylists of kung fu have you defeated, recently?

I am asking a logical question, here!


And let me repeat, no, you BELIEVE BASED ON SPECULATION that it would work.
Actually it is you who BELIEVE BASED ON SPECULATION THAT IT WOULDN'T WORK!

OR do you want me to send an email to Douglas Wong asking him to gouge somebody's eye for real on YouTube? LOL,LOL,LOL! But then some people would say that the, now blind man, was being compliant....LOL,LOL,LOL!

As I always say, a good laugh never hurts.:)


He's quite well-known.
Apparently by the wrong people, as well.:D

[HardWork8]

Look up Shinjo Sensei from the Uechi-ryu and see what he can do with his fingers.
The same probably holds true for Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu who has been conditioning his hands for decades.

[By the way, and this is going back a bit and is off topic, but has to be stated for the sake of enlightenment - Higaonnas Goju-ryu DOES address the ground scenario, just like Kyokushinkai did many years ago!]

[Liddel]

I believe that it does. Perhaps some sifus who teach it, do not give these aspects any emphasis, for whatever reason.

You cant have a belief on MY Ving Tsun... cause you havent seen me :cool:
So its actually fact that it has no relevance....TO ME

I have snake techs (or rather techs that are said to be from the snake) and they are emphasised but like i said the method is different to that shown, no more no less.
Its fine because i haver my own ideas towards VT many of which dont fit with a lot of other views on VT..... as one example -



The Snake element in most Wing Chun will refer to the various finger strikes to vulnerable areas and to the internal/softness training necessary to make those strikes work.

IMO BJ is not about finger strikes. I know many hold to this idea and thats fine.
For me its more about the crossover mechanics of what the fingers strikes make you do. Its about developing a different power and its applications outside the theory of the other 2 forms, IMHO people who reach BJ focus too much on the finger strikes like they are the death touch or something, when Finger strikes are in the other forms already...but thats another thread. LOL



The softness is also relevant in the "listening" ability that is present in all high level kung fu.

High level Kung fu is all but dead IMO but ok. LOL



I don't think that anyone will hit you back once you have taken out their eyeball...If they do, then you better run fast...:eek:

Who are you Pai Mei ? this is not the world of Kill Bill... you will never pluck my eyeball without it being blind luck. Poke gouge sure.

Ive had a finger in the eye up to the first knuckle on the index finger, it was an accident by my sparring partner but i was still standing although my eye was watering like a faucet....

Like anthing i wouldnt want to rely on one tech, but its obvious gouges and fingers have thier place.

Its amazing to me what people can do in pain and thats from first hand expereince of going on ride alongs with police friends...:o

DREW

[HardWork8]

You cant have a belief on MY Ving Tsun... cause you havent seen me :cool:
So its actually fact that it has no relevance....TO ME
Fair enough.


I have snake techs (or rather techs that are said to be from the snake) and they are emphasised but like i said the method is different to that shown, no more no less.
Fair enough.



Its fine because i haver my own ideas towards VT many of which dont fit with a lot of other views on VT
As long as they fit the Wing Chun principles then I don't think that there is anything wrong with different ideas and individual approaches.


IMO BJ is not about finger strikes. I know many hold to this idea and thats fine.
Before we go any further let me say that I am not at Biu Jee level,yet. What I know about Biu Jee is based on my Sifu's explanations.

Bj is about finger strikes and a whole lot of other things as well.


For me its more about the crossover mechanics of what the fingers strikes make you do. Its about developing a different power and its applications outside the theory of the other 2 forms, IMHO people who reach BJ focus too much on the finger strikes like they are the death touch or something, when Finger strikes are in the other forms already...but thats another thread. LOL
Interesting point and valid points, but again and as far as my lineage is concerned there are two versions of Biu Jee so I will have to hold judgement until or if I am taught the second version.


High level Kung fu is all but dead IMO but ok. LOL

I know for a fact that high level kung fu is alive and (not so) well, nowadays.


Who are you Pai Mei ? this is not the world of Kill Bill... you will never pluck my eyeball without it being blind luck. Poke gouge sure.
People see such techniques as singular actions. If thug is coming at me 30 miles an hour with all guns blazing then plucking his eye would be very difficult, but then if he walks into my fists first then I suppose plucking his eye would not be so challenging, if I were that way inclined that is.;)


Ive had a finger in the eye up to the first knuckle on the index finger, it was an accident by my sparring partner but i was still standing although my eye was watering like a faucet....
But I am sure that for the most part, it knocked the fight out of you.


Like anthing i wouldnt want to rely on one tech, but its obvious gouges and fingers have thier place.
They do, and that is why they exist in kung fu.


Its amazing to me what people can do in pain and thats from first hand expereince of going on ride alongs with police friends...:o
Agreed!

But again, if we use that logic then we will never hit anyone in self defense because they may withstand the pain and make minced meat out of us.:eek::)

[sanjuro_ronin]

A guy I know who is highly skilled in WC and other MA's, and has extensive ring, security, and streetfighting experience, and is fairly amoral as regards hurting people, doesn't use "finger strikes" per se, but uses the thumb in the eye, from the inside corner outward to good effect.

It's not a stopper against a fully committed opponent, but he claims it works in situations to stop one guy temporarily while he's dealing with another, or to indicate to someone looking for a fist fight that he's biting off more than he wanted to chew.



I've seen demos of Karate guys that can split apples in mid-air and break boards with their fingers. Impressive. It must take loads of conditioning. But then again, I'd bet these guys can punch like battering rams as well.



Probably more so in the US. He's been around for decades, one of his books was my first MA-related book purchase in 1977. He has a number of students or associates that you often see in bit parts in Hollywood movies or on TV, Like James Liu (?) who was in Perfect Weapon, and Al Leong, the Asian guy with long hair from Lethal weapon.

He's always been a bit on the pudgy side for a supposedly top class martial artist IMO, but his books were OK.

The thumb gouge you describe is quite common as a grappling counter in a few MA, Goju and Kyokushin for example ( since I trained in them) have them in their self-defence curriculm and, of course, Steven Seagal does a fine example of the two handed ( or should I say two thumbed) one in Marked for death :)

It works really well of a "raking palm strike" and, while not a fight ender as part of a strike, it can be quite the fight ender as part of a "ripping" technique on an immobilized head.

[Toby]

Bj is about finger strikes and a whole lot of other things as well.I know a couple of versions of biu jee and neither has anything to do with finger strikes. In fact in all the WC forms I know the strikes and moves are kind of unimportant if you're thinking in terms of application. Finger strikes in biu jee? Meh. Much more important things going on than that.

[HardWork8]

I know a couple of versions of biu jee and neither has anything to do with finger strikes. In fact in all the WC forms I know the strikes and moves are kind of unimportant if you're thinking in terms of application. Finger strikes in biu jee? Meh. Much more important things going on than that.

I can only talk about what I know of my lineage and I will also say that if your Wing Chun does not have IP training then learning finger strikes (Snake and the Crane) would be irrelevant.

It is also possible that a lot of the "quick fix" schools of Wing Chun that are prevalent nowadays will not teach you techniques that are time consuming, specially if the sifus that are teaching, have no knowledge of their existance, just like many instructors who have no knowledge of IP and the internals that are part and parcel of Wing Chun.

[Toby]

At my school the main teacher's been learning MA for about 50 years and WC for at least 30, maybe 40. At various times up to 3 systems of WC have been taught and I think he's learned 5, some in more detail than others. We've got students who've been at the school for about 20 years and earned "sifu" status, although they still consider themselves students. So if it's a "quick fix" school they're all obviously slow learners.

With respect to IP, we don't train IP, no (although my teacher has). I don't think any private students learn it either at this stage. But we do tend to emphasize a particular strike, and it must be conditioned to be effective and it takes a long time and lots of effort so there are some parallels to IP. It's regarded as higher percentage than finger techniques.

With respect to "internal training", there might be some in WC but IMHO it's not something that is discussed in any system that I've seen, at least not in any online videos. Furthermore, in most IMA systems I've seen there isn't any "internal training".

But anyway, you're missing my point. Irrespective of what strikes are/aren't in WC forms, the strikes themselves aren't the most important part. In fact, the important part might demonstrate part of what you're calling "internal training" although I doubt you know what I'm talking about since like I said you missed my point and you're focussing on the hands.

E.g. to emphasize my point - think of a strike like a straight jab. Does it really matter what's on the end of your arm? Could it be a flat palm, a bagua palm, a sun fist, a horizontal fist, a leopard fist, a phoenix eye fist, a horizontal finger strike, a vertical finger strike, etc, etc? It's irrelevant. It's what's driving the strike that's important. What drives your strikes? How is that trained in your forms?

[t_niehoff]

I suspect that you wouldn't want one of these "poorly skilled" fighters coming at you in a bar.


Any sane person doesn't "want" to be assaulted.



"Poorly skilled" guys have been gouging each other's eyes and biting noses for centuries. What makes you think that a fighter trained in kung fu cannot do the same?


Poorly skilled people getting away with stuff against other poorly skilled people isn't a good barometer of how we should proceed to develop skill in fighting.



Talking of experience, how many Snake stylists have you defeated in real fights, recently? Actually, how many ANY stylists of kung fu have you defeated, recently?

I am asking a logical question, here!


No, you're not. The question you should be asking if you are interested in these "Snake tactics" is not what I've done but what evidence exists that "Snake stylists" have ever been able to use these things successfully and consistently in fighting against decent-level competition. And the answer to that question is none. And that is a partial answerto your next point.



Actually it is you who BELIEVE BASED ON SPECULATION THAT IT WOULDN'T WORK!


No, my conclusion is based on evidence (see above). Also, instead of listening to the opinions of nonfighting "kung fu men" tell you what things will or will not work in fighting, why not talk to proven high-level fighters and fight trainers about the sorts of things that will work?



OR do you want me to send an email to Douglas Wong asking him to gouge somebody's eye for real on YouTube? LOL,LOL,LOL! But then some people would say that the, now blind man, was being compliant....LOL,LOL,LOL!

As I always say, a good laugh never hurts.:)


Wong's never fought and will never fight.

People can either base their views and opinions on theory and conjecture or on experience/evidence. In an earlier post I gave a simple way for a person to see for themselves whether this stuff is useful or not -- through experience. Similarly if someone thinks this stuff works on the ground, all they need to do is roll with some good grapplers and try to bite or poke and you'll see. That's my point: these sorts of things never come from people with actual experience, from someone who says "I routinely pull this stuff off in rolling against purple belts in BJJ", but from people with no experience but theoretical beliefs of what should work based on stories. The fact we don't hear it from anyone with experience is revealing.

[LoneTiger108]

I am glad :)..It looks like it so far, but then I wouldn't be suprised if the Snake manifests itself in one of the Yip Man lineages as well, because I really believe that all Wing Chun has these elements. Maybe a Yip Man practitioner can pleasantly surprise us in this thread.

Strictly speaking, I'm of Ip Man heritage via Lee Shing. SO I'd have to confirm that Snake concepts are used in what I have been taught, along with the Crane. Also, Snake characteristics should NEVER be boxed into the idea that it's all about finger strikes etc. NEVER. Just as The Crane doesn't JUST fly?!


Similarly if someone thinks this stuff works on the ground, all they need to do is roll with some good grapplers and try to bite or poke and you'll see. That's my point: these sorts of things never come from people with actual experience...

I agree on the most part with what you're saying here T, and although you may not like it this point helps me explain my previous ramble.

Snake 'characteristics' ARE present throughout BJJ imo. Its not the finger striking, but it is definitely present in the 'gripping', rolling and submission tactics. After all, that's all a Snake will do. Bite you, poison you, wrap around you and squeeze you to death. All this before it eats you! :D

Sounds like decent BJJ to me...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Strictly speaking, I'm of Ip Man heritage via Lee Shing. SO I'd have to confirm that Snake concepts are used in what I have been taught, along with the Crane. Also, Snake characteristics should NEVER be boxed into the idea that it's all about finger strikes etc. NEVER. Just as The Crane doesn't JUST fly?!



I agree on the most part with what you're saying here T, and although you may not like it this point helps me explain my previous ramble.

Snake 'characteristics' ARE present throughout BJJ imo. Its not the finger striking, but it is definitely present in the 'gripping', rolling and submission tactics. After all, that's all a Snake will do. Bite you, poison you, wrap around you and squeeze you to death. All this before it eats you! :D

Sounds like decent BJJ to me...

Adding animal names to what we do is a cultural thing, even BJJ is guilty of it with their "anaconda choke: and their "mata leao" ( Lion killer).
Its all good.

[couch]

Adding animal names to what we do is a cultural thing, even BJJ is guilty of it with their "anaconda choke: and their "mata leao" ( Lion killer).
Its all good.

Then there's my hero - Eddie Bravo and his names like:
New York
Chill Dog
Kung-Fu Move
etc...


These are names so they can remember positions as well as for calling things out from the sidelines in competition your opponent isn't aware of. Very true re: cultural influences in MA. The ancient Chinese studied the moon, sun and stars...nature...weather patterns and seasonal changes. It's no wonder that Tai Chi (based on the Tao) has "natural" names for movements.

[LoneTiger108]

Adding animal names to what we do is a cultural thing, even BJJ is guilty of it with their "anaconda choke: and their "mata leao" ( Lion killer).
Its all good.

Part of what I'm saying here, but I'm not just referring to 'names' of techniques (used secretively or not!)

I'm on about the fundamental characteristics of the early systems. From what I see and who I've spoken to BJJ IS a 'Snake Style'. Why wouldn't any of the combos or trainig ideas be IN Wing Chun if we're snake based also?

The simple answer is, they are! Just need to look harder and study more imo

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then there's my hero - Eddie Bravo and his names like:
New York
Chill Dog
Kung-Fu Move
etc...




Dirty Sanchez
rusty trambone
angry pirate...

:D

[couch]

I'm on about the fundamental characteristics of the early systems. From what I see and who I've spoken to BJJ IS a 'Snake Style'.


Yes and no, I guess. Thing it, BJJ is a Judo/JJJ derivative that took the Ne Waza/Ground Fighting and expanded on it. We can draw parallels in any MA to Snake this or Crane that. The main concern is always does it work - pressure tested. :cool:

Stop being such a Dirty Sanchez, LoneTiger! JK Had to use that phrase...LOL

[anerlich]

From what I see and who I've spoken to BJJ IS a 'Snake Style'.

I agree with Couch. Analogies will only get you so far.

I use python analogies a lot when teaching choke entries - firm but flexible, strong but not tense, constricting, etc.

But BJJ is IMO a different, er, animal from Snake style KF.

You could say BJJ is like a python, Snake KF more like a rattlesnake or cobra. But ultimately analogies will only get you so far.

To assume that one is a type of the other or vice versa, or that knowledge of one implies some understanding of the other, is IMO doing a disservice to both.

[Liddel]

I also agree, which is why i posted earlier...


I have snake techs (or rather techs that are said to be from the snake)

...Because the tech and its effectivness are first and foremost not which animal thier said to derive from.

Which lends back to the original post..."of releance to VT"... the only relevance actions have to that of VT are in two important areas IMO.

Body Mechanics - how your body creates each action.
Timing - where and when you use it.

and with these points in mind i feel whats shown in the vid isnt relevant to MY Chun. His mechanics and timing are differnt, regardless of what experience he has with VT.


You could say BJJ is like a python, Snake KF more like a rattlesnake or cobra. But ultimately analogies will only get you so far.

I agree. I know some are of the opinion that these names derive from the cultural beliefs etc which makes sence, but i also think that using names that we see today
i.e " Dragon steals lotus flower" LOL (one of the more elaborate names, so glad i do VT :) )
served to preserve thier knowledge and keep ones kung fu close to thier chests.

People couldnt steal theory etc back in the day without learning from a master because of these terms and there... somewhat misleading desguise...
Just my opinion. ;)

DREW

[HardWork8]

At my school the main teacher's been learning MA for about 50 years and WC for at least 30, maybe 40. At various times up to 3 systems of WC have been taught and I think he's learned 5, some in more detail than others. We've got students who've been at the school for about 20 years and earned "sifu" status, although they still consider themselves students. So if it's a "quick fix" school they're all obviously slow learners.

Quick Fix schools are just an example of why certain techniques may not be taught in many Wing Chun schools. As you probably know, the majority of Wing chun schools are quick fix schools even some with "credentials". My mention of these type of schools was meant to be just an example of why some schools may not teach these aspects.

Other reasons may include the fact that some sifus may consider it "irrelevant".

Some lineages or branches may have taken them out of the curriculum or perhaps they did not have them in the first place.

So there are many possible reasons why you have not seen significant emphasis on the finger strikes.


With respect to IP, we don't train IP, no (although my teacher has). I don't think any private students learn it either at this stage. But we do tend to emphasize a particular strike, and it must be conditioned to be effective and it takes a long time and lots of effort so there are some parallels to IP. It's regarded as higher percentage than finger techniques.

I am not aware of the system that parallels IP, so I cannot really comment. I can however say that in our lineage IP is fundemental how else will one use finger strikes, chi-na and even - at the later stages of training- some Tiger Claw techniques. So it all depends on the contents of your style.


With respect to "internal training", there might be some in WC but IMHO it's not something that is discussed in any system that I've seen, at least not in any online videos. Furthermore, in most IMA systems I've seen there isn't any "internal training".

And that is what I mean when I say that many schools don't teach certain aspects. The internals are in ALL kung fu styles. We were taught that the first part of Siu Lim Tao is a chi kung exercise.

Here is another school that is of the same opinion:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=7kFBHp9oB7g


E.g. to emphasize my point - think of a strike like a straight jab. Does it really matter what's on the end of your arm?
It does in the way I understand what I practice. It depends on the target you are aiming at, to start with. You are not goint to hit the hard part of the skull with a closed fist, but perhaps a palm strike. Or if you are targeting the eyes, then a finger strike or a phoenix eye may be more relevant.


It's irrelevant. It's what's driving the strike that's important. What drives your strikes? How is that trained in your forms?

I am not sure about your question, but here goes. There is never one thing that drives one's strike. On one level it is intention on the other level it is forward elbow motion inside the body unity and structure, within the Wing Chun concepts and principles. Furthermore the breathing has to be co-ordinated to the strike.

The forms practice incorporate all of the above in relevant dosages.

[HardWork8]

Any sane person doesn't "want" to be assaulted.
In that case let me state again, I suspect that you wouldn't want any of these "poorly skilled" coming at you in a bar.:D


SERIOUSLY Terence, they are "unskilled" fighters, so it would be a piece of cake for a "Functionally" trained fighter such as yourself. If such a fighter grabs you to bite your nose, then all you have to do is to blow your nose "functionally" of course, inside his mouth.


Poorly skilled people getting away with stuff against other poorly skilled people isn't a good barometer of how we should proceed to develop skill in fighting.
You are making more of your "fantasy" assumptions, Terence old boy. For all you know some those guys in the old days had more REAL or dare I say functional fighting experience than you.


No, you're not. The question you should be asking if you are interested in these "Snake tactics" is not what I've done but what evidence exists that "Snake stylists" have ever been able to use these things successfully and consistently in fighting against decent-level competition.

The fact that they have survived generations and not only in China, but in Okinawa(in other formats), should tell you they are not useless. However, if you are that interested, then lets form a forum posse (I almost spelt that the wrong way ;)) and search the YouTube for fights where Snake stylists gouge the eyes and puncture the throats of fellow competitors.:rolleyes:


No, my conclusion is based on evidence (see above). Also, instead of listening to the opinions of nonfighting "kung fu men" tell you what things will or will not work in fighting,
How do you know that they are nonfighting kung fu men. How many of them have you beaten in real fights????????????

All the sifus that I have had contact with have had numerous fights between them. However, they do not follow what you would classify as "modern" mode of training.


why not talk to proven high-level fighters and fight trainers about the sorts of things that will work?
There are some techiques that do not transfer well to competition - and no sir, goggles won't do!!!, so they are trained in other ways. If you are in doubt then go to your local Chinatown and find out for yourself!



Wong's never fought and will never fight.
Did you challenge him and he refused?


People can either base their views and opinions on theory and conjecture or on experience/evidence.
As I stated my sifus have had plenty of fighting experiences.



In an earlier post I gave a simple way for a person to see for themselves whether this stuff is useful or not -- through experience. Similarly if someone thinks this stuff works on the ground, all they need to do is roll with some good grapplers and try to bite or poke and you'll see. That's my point: these sorts of things never come from people with actual experience, from someone who says "I routinely pull this stuff off in rolling against purple belts in BJJ", but from people with no experience but theoretical beliefs of what should work based on stories. The fact we don't hear it from anyone with experience is revealing.

Sheesh! now we have to search the YouTube for people who have bitten off the noses of BJJ purple belts.:rolleyes:

Terence, why BJJ purple belts only? Will the bitten-off noses of brown belts do? Come on help us here!


TERENCE! you are the one without experience, if you have not met traditional kung fu sifus who have not fought for real then that is because you have not looked. You have not looked because you were afraid of what you would find!

In short you didn't want YOUR FANTASY WORLD to crumble to the ground!

[HardWork8]

Strictly speaking, I'm of Ip Man heritage via Lee Shing. SO I'd have to confirm that Snake concepts are used in what I have been taught, along with the Crane. Also, Snake characteristics should NEVER be boxed into the idea that it's all about finger strikes etc. NEVER. Just as The Crane doesn't JUST fly?!

Agreed. I believe that I have stated earlier that the Snake element also refers to the softness. And of course, this in turn has relevance to "listening" and "leaking" concepts.

[Liddel]

There is never one thing that drives one's strike.

errrr.... momentum.

There is never just one thing that powers momentum though.

and take this with a grain of salt but.... i get the feeling you parrot alot of what your told and not from things born of your own experience.

But i could be wrong, its just a feeling.

:cool:
DREW

[Toby]

And that is what I mean when I say that many schools don't teach certain aspects. The internals are in ALL kung fu styles. We were taught that the first part of Siu Lim Tao is a chi kung exercise.

Here is another school that is of the same opinion:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=7kFBHp9oB7gI totally disagree with the school of thought that relaxation is the path to internal mastery. There is nothing correct in that video from my perspective, nothing at all. We are also taught that in the first section of SLT there is a lot more going on than meets the eye, but none of that is evident in anything else I've seen. Simply standing there and saying relax and feel the chi in the fingertips, nope, doesn't do anything IMHO.


It does in the way I understand what I practice. It depends on the target you are aiming at, to start with. You are not goint to hit the hard part of the skull with a closed fist, but perhaps a palm strike. Or if you are targeting the eyes, then a finger strike or a phoenix eye may be more relevant.

I am not sure about your question, but here goes. There is never one thing that drives one's strike. On one level it is intention on the other level it is forward elbow motion inside the body unity and structure, within the Wing Chun concepts and principles. Furthermore the breathing has to be co-ordinated to the strike.You're missing the forest for the trees. I don't care what my hand's doing (to a certain extent obviously - e.g. it can't collapse under pressure). It's what's powering the hand that's most important. Where does that come from? IMHO training time would be better spent developing that than developing IP.

Think of a sun fist. Even if the fist is tightly clenched and held strong at impact, what happens if the wrist is loose and floppy and not perfectly aligned? It'll collapse and you'll break your wrist. What about if the wrist is straight and you hold that strong too but your elbow is flared out and loose? It'll pop out sideways and you won't transmit any force. So fix your elbow then think about what drives that, and what drives that, and what drives that, and so on ... the hand is not the most important IMHO. Not to mention it's much easier to develop than other things. From our perspective one thing drives everything else ... that's what is most important.

[cjurakpt]

as to the first part of siu lim tao being a qigong - I don't know how widely held a belief this is in the WC world, but one piece of "evidence" supporting this perspective is that the first section of SLT bears a strong resemblance to one part the Yi Jin Jing I learned which is called "pan hei" ("expelling breath"); now, the hand motions are not as specifically WC-like, as the set is not training specific fighting movements, but it has the extending "tan sao" and sort of a "fuk sao"-like movement for the single-arm work, and the double arms stuff has some similarities as well;

what's also similar is that the "pan hei" is done at the beginning of the practice, following some initial "soft" work, with one main purpose being (among other things) to expel residual volume from the lungs prior to other later exercises that work on increasing inhalation capacity (e.g. - some of the exercises are done with up to 20 inhalations before exhaling); I don't know how the breathing is taught for SLT, but for us, it's done with a full exhale on the extension / expelling, and then a series of sequential inhales on the gathering / coming back in

so, it does not seem unreasonable that this part of YJJ was used somewhere at some point as a "template" on top of which the specific WC hand movements were overlaid; but this makes sense, as there are other sections of the YJJ that clearly serve as pre-cursors to the stance, iron body / palm and tiger claw training I have seen in various shaolin / shaolin derived styles (meaning that we practice them for health, not fighting, but it wouldn't take too much tweaking to make them martial)

[Toby]

^ I could believe this. We're taught to synchronise breathing with the inward/outward movements. Initially it's taught to breathe out with the outward movement, in with the inward. I changed it in SLT for various reasons so now I do the opposite and apparently that's fine too, but I'm specifically training a mechanic that works well with outward motions with an in breath. Apparently as I get better I should be able to do the mechanics of what I want to do regardless of breath direction, as in a spontaneous situation I can't delay a movement in order to synchronise my breathing. Makes sense :p . I'm not good enough to get the right sort of feeling happening when I try to do that - at this stage I really like to do the in breath/expansion movement, feels just right. It feels empty if I don't have my breath pattern where I want it. Not bad, just empty.

I have also heard that it said that YM said that SLT should take 45min to perform correctly, mostly due to a long time spent on this specific section we're discussing. Obviously with those time spans you can't do one breath/one movement. But with that timeframe something else is being trained and at this stage I really like to work on my breathing and synchronicity so that's what I do instead. I get the other things other ways. Not that I work on WC much any more in comparison to my other style.

WRT what you said in another thread, we essentially do the reverse, Taoist breathing style.

[cjurakpt]

I changed it in SLT for various reasons so now I do the opposite and apparently that's fine too, but I'm specifically training a mechanic that works well with outward motions with an in breath.
interesting; what caused you to decide to do so on your own (just wondering about your process in that regard)?


Apparently as I get better I should be able to do the mechanics of what I want to do regardless of breath direction, as in a spontaneous situation I can't delay a movement in order to synchronise my breathing.
I believe that is the end goal / result: breathe and movement harmonize to the point where one can no longer tell which "causes" the other; this is a common concept in many different system, both Chinese and others


I have also heard that it said that YM said that SLT should take 45min to perform correctly, mostly due to a long time spent on this specific section we're discussing. Obviously with those time spans you can't do one breath/one movement.
that makes sense - same with YJJ (and taiji): at the initial level it's conscious (e.g. - breathing / moving slowly); later on, it's spontaneous, meaning that the body naturally takes a longer time (it's own time) to do certain things - actually, it probably always wants to do it, just that the "conscious" mind hasn't learned how to "listen" to that particular frequency - dovetails w/meditation practice, as well;


WRT what you said in another thread, we essentially do the reverse, Taoist breathing style.
based on my personal experience and verifying it w/my sifu, eventually, that one actually gets to the point where the "regular" and the "reverse" merge into something that's like a "natural reverse" (:confused:) - ok, meaning that the abdomen doesn't go totally loose, but you also don't contract it fully - in fact, it almost "pumps" / changes tension during the course of the breath depending on what you are doing (also same w/pelvic floor / bottom of feet); I think this is what allows you to have root but also stay loose up top (this applies to both "health" and "combat", just varying in intent, sorta, depending on what you are doing specifically);

[bennyvt]

the form should take about 45mins to 1 hour. Meaning that the tan takes about five minutes to reach the right position. If that is one breathe then you are doing good. As long as you use your abdominal breathing it should not matter. The first section should also be done with force. This teaches with the slow movement, constant forward pressure.

[couch]

the form should take about 45mins to 1 hour. Meaning that the tan takes about five minutes to reach the right position. If that is one breathe then you are doing good. As long as you use your abdominal breathing it should not matter. The first section should also be done with force. This teaches with the slow movement, constant forward pressure.

I'd just like to emphasize that this is okay only when you're at home and not at the club. This, perhaps, could be some good homework...but IMO time is better spent on doing other things like hitting heavy bags, etc.

It's one thing to develop the position and proper mechanics through the forms...but then you have to have them break down under stress and find out why. Guess I'd rather spend my time doing other things than 45 mins of one form. Once or twice daily is good...but it should be minutes to perform and then on to other things.

When you've got your own business and two little kidlets...time is precious to me.

[HardWork8]

errrr.... momentum.

There is never just one thing that powers momentum though.

As stated in my post, I was not sure about the question, so I answered it as holistically as possible, showing the MECHANISM that was involved in the delivery of the strike.

Momentum or speed is the obvious answer even you must discount the possibility that in our school we make our strikes in slow motion!:rolleyes:

Nice try, anyway.:rolleyes:


and take this with a grain of salt but.... i get the feeling you parrot alot of what your told

We all learn from what we are told, well except for some knuckleheads who take a little bit of kung fu "knowledge" and then go MMA!


and not from things born of your own experience.
That is right. Now you are implying that I have no experience of punching. Very good! You must have gained a "black belt" in your discusson class.


But i could be wrong, its just a feeling.
Save your "feelings" for you Siu Lim Tao (if you ever practise it, that is) and also for your Chi Sao!

:cool:
HW8

[HardWork8]

I totally disagree with the school of thought that relaxation is the path to internal mastery.
Then I am afraid that you have totally misunderstood the internal approach to kung fu.

You can never and I mean NEVER get anywhere in the mastery of the internals without understanding the SCOPE and the DEPTH of relaxation involved. It is a complicated theory and it is not widely taught beyond a superficial level and hence all the misunderstandings.

Good internals will encompass various concepts including "listening", "leaking", "sticking" and so on. To even gain proficiency in these beyond a superficial level one will need the muster relaxation and the "softness" that is the fundemental part of the internals.



There is nothing correct in that video from my perspective, nothing at all.
Then feel free to contact the sifu or master in the video with your criticisms and "teachings"!


We are also taught that in the first section of SLT there is a lot more going on than meets the eye, but none of that is evident in anything else I've seen. Simply standing there and saying relax and feel the chi in the fingertips, nope, doesn't do anything IMHO.
That is because nobody is going to learn anything significant about the internals from a video. The sifu in the video is only showing the approach. By the way, he is not from my lineage of Wing Chun!


You're missing the forest for the trees. I don't care what my hand's doing (to a certain extent obviously - e.g. it can't collapse under pressure). It's what's powering the hand that's most important. Where does that come from?
The power comes from the roots and structure - and of course the muscles that generate the speed (among other things), not forgetting the proper breathing.


IMHO training time would be better spent developing that than developing IP.
Until presumably you get hit by an IP practitioner. ;)
However, that is your opinion and that is fare enough just don't share with various grand masters of many styles of kung fu who have used that method for centuries.


Think of a sun fist. Even if the fist is tightly clenched and held strong at impact, what happens if the wrist is loose and floppy and not perfectly aligned? It'll collapse and you'll break your wrist. What about if the wrist is straight and you hold that strong too but your elbow is flared out and loose? It'll pop out sideways and you won't transmit any force. So fix your elbow then think about what drives that, and what drives that, and what drives that, and so on ... the hand is not the most important IMHO. Not to mention it's much easier to develop than other things. From our perspective one thing drives everything else ... that's what is most important.
Well I have given you our perspective!

However, when you do have the required power in your strikes then you need to think about the TECHNIQUES and their possible variations. And areas like the Snake, Tiger, Leopard will widen that scope, but NOT without the complimentary Iron Palm practice!

[HardWork8]

By the way, what is the Lee Shing approach to Siu Lim Tao? Maybe Lone Tiger 108can say a few words on that regard?:)

[HardWork8]

the form should take about 45mins to 1 hour. Meaning that the tan takes about five minutes to reach the right position. If that is one breathe then you are doing good. As long as you use your abdominal breathing it should not matter. The first section should also be done with force. This teaches with the slow movement, constant forward pressure.
Is the first part of Siu Lim Tao practiced as a chi kung exercise in your Wing Chun school, because your post seems to imply it?

[Liddel]

Toby had posted......

I totally disagree with the school of thought that relaxation is the path to internal mastery. There is nothing correct in that video from my perspective, nothing at all. We are also taught that in the first section of SLT there is a lot more going on than meets the eye, but none of that is evident in anything else I've seen. Simply standing there and saying relax and feel the chi in the fingertips, nope, doesn't do anything IMHO.

Life is about balance and so to is anything you do IMO. But a balance between what depends on the thing your doing. We are doing Kung Fu so its mainly physical.

To fully relax is to cut off your nose despite your face IMO. So i agree with toby somewhat.

One thing about that clip i noticed is, from my POV his body mechanics suffer as a result of trying to relax.
As an example - after the center punch most lineages turn to Tan Sau then roll that action into a fist via huen sau and take it back.. "huen sau sau kuen"

When i do this action (huen rolling from tan to Kuen) my elbow is straight, Why ? to isolate the wrist for huen Sau giving it a better range of motion trianing my inch power in the wrist more so than if my elbow was bent slightly.

Try and feel with elbow bent then elbow straight. Isolating the wrist improves the training of the action IME.
Now in the clip his relaxed elbow doesnt isolate the wrist so the heun isnt as effective in improving power dexterity etc etc.
Now perhaps hes focused on just the relaxation and his explosive power but thats to the detriment of improving his inch power or wrist force which is fairly important in my VT.

So with that example in mind, which applies to other actions i saw in the clip to.... relaxing is fine but one needs to know how much relaxation to have and how that affects other atributes of your training...ESPECIALLY IN THE FORMS.

He may not be concerned with isolating the wrist which is his perogitive but looking at clips of others and trying to make it work for you can be a hit and miss affair IMO. More than likely you may have differnt priorities. :rolleyes:

For me, im about body mechanics and trainnig muscles and tendons to work together with my VT techs, so im relaxed in ways seperate to whats shown....i have my own version of balance between relaxation and body mechanics based on what im trying to accomplish physically.

IMHO one common example of using relaxation in the forms seen today is in CK.

Some schools in the second section turing with Lan sau then turning back to middle Bong etc. some pull lan Sau and then turn straight from the Lan into Bong.
Others lower the hands from Lan into a crossed wrist type position around the waist then turn the horse and into the middle Bong.

When i noticed the changes or difference to how i was taught years ago i asked my teacher and he had told me his teacher Lok Yiu had made that change in the form (for our lineage anyway) for two reasons. One of which was relaxing the shoulders after than Lan Sau.. the other was to help emphasise the elbow force which is more apparent when turning into bong with the hands coming from a lowered waist position.

So depending on your purpose relaxing is fine just be aware of its downstream effect on your habbit actions and behaviour of body mechanics.

My view on SLT is far removed from a Chi Gong (sp?) exercise. :o and i can still be very soft if you touch hands with me.

DREW

[anerlich]

Meaning that the tan takes about five minutes to reach the right position. If that is one breathe then you are doing good.

If you can do five minutes for one breath, you should consider trying for some freediving records. Staying totally relaxed while taking this long to breathe, stretches credibility.


As long as you use your abdominal breathing it should not matter. The first section should also be done with force. This teaches with the slow movement, constant forward pressure.

Opinions vary widely in WC, but my lineage too practices this section with some tension and constant forward pressure, including thinking forward while withdrawing the wu sao hand.

I share the opinion that this duration of practice is not optimal. I suspect that some teachers do this to avoid having to provide their students with more material. 3-4 breaths out and the same returning is ample IMO.

Total relaxation while performing dynamic movements is an oxymoron. One wants to move with a minimum of tension in muscles and tendons not assisting the movement for efficiency (like relaxing the shoulders, as Drew mentioned), but the movements you can perform without a muscle contraction are rather limited. The best way to relax a muscle is often to tense it first, per PNF.

Many athletic disciplines have developed sophisticated approaches to incorporating breath with movement and body alignment for maximum efficiency and effectiveness. This is what IMO we should be trying do in TCMA. Good health per se comes from a wide variety of good lifestyle choices, not just unusual breathing patterns accompanied with unusual body movements. A lot of KF guys died young, whereas Helio Gracie is still kicking.

In my experience, Xingyi claims the most precise targeted effects on the body via movement, breathing and alignment. Each of the five element and animal movements is meant to activate a specific set of nerves emanating from the cervical and thoracic spine, and this is meant to affect the corresponding organ associated with the TCM element, etc, with which it correlates.

We also had a set of five movement and breathing drills my Xingyi teacher called "Taoist Yoga", which we did daily prior to 36 macrocosmic/microcosmic orbit breath cycles taken while sitting in seiza (kneeling) on a hardwood floor. My feet still hurt just thinking about it.

My teacher at that time was one of the first Gwailos to qualify as an acupuncturist in Taiwan and HK, as well as his MA qualifications, which for Xingyi and BaGua came from Hung I Hsiang and Wang Shu-Chin, both mentioned at length in Robert W Smith's "Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods". My teacher had a wealth of knowledge in these areas. Like too many others, he liked to play games with his students about this stuff (some have pulled the wool over their own eyes as well as their students, but that's another story).

His personal life was a train wreck with two failed marriages and four kids behind him, and then stealing his business partner's wife from under his nose.

I lived this stuff for over five years, with meditation, etc. thrown in. I was healthy, but I wouldn't say unusually so - I went on some weird diets, and did some other questionable health practices which were prejudicial IMO. Basically, if anything extraordinary was going to happen to me as a result, it would have in this time. And my own personal life was seriously out of balance also.

Diminishing returns eventually kicked in. My next foray into MA was looking for effectiveness not dogma.

As we are told constantly with scams, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."


When i do this action (huen rolling from tan to Kuen) my elbow is straight, Why ? to isolate the wrist for huen Sau giving it a better range of motion trianing my inch power in the wrist more so than if my elbow was bent slightly.

We do a tight Huen with the wrist isolated in Chum Kil, but a wider Huen incorporating the elbow and shoulder as well in SLT. I see value in isolating the wrist to get the action correct - a lot of beginners seem to find this difficult - but do it in concert with the other joints most of the time as incorporating more joints leads to increased movement efficiency.

We used to do another SLT with the isolated wrist before learning this version, but dropped that a while ago. I'm wondering now if that was a bad idea.


My view on SLT is far removed from a Chi Gong (sp?) exercise. and i can still be very soft if you touch hands with me.

Same here. If total relaxation is my goal, I'll jump in a hot tub.

[HardWork8]

Toby had posted......


Life is about balance and so to is anything you do IMO. But a balance between what depends on the thing your doing. We are doing Kung Fu so its mainly physical.

To fully relax is to cut off your nose despite your face IMO. So i agree with toby somewhat.

One thing about that clip i noticed is, from my POV his body mechanics suffer as a result of trying to relax.
As an example - after the center punch most lineages turn to Tan Sau then roll that action into a fist via huen sau and take it back.. "huen sau sau kuen"

When i do this action (huen rolling from tan to Kuen) my elbow is straight, Why ? to isolate the wrist for huen Sau giving it a better range of motion trianing my inch power in the wrist more so than if my elbow was bent slightly.

Try and feel with elbow bent then elbow straight. Isolating the wrist improves the training of the action IME.
Now in the clip his relaxed elbow doesnt isolate the wrist so the heun isnt as effective in improving power dexterity etc etc.
Now perhaps hes focused on just the relaxation and his explosive power but thats to the detriment of improving his inch power or wrist force which is fairly important in my VT.

So with that example in mind, which applies to other actions i saw in the clip to.... relaxing is fine but one needs to know how much relaxation to have and how that affects other atributes of your training...ESPECIALLY IN THE FORMS.

He may not be concerned with isolating the wrist which is his perogitive but looking at clips of others and trying to make it work for you can be a hit and miss affair IMO. More than likely you may have differnt priorities. :rolleyes:

For me, im about body mechanics and trainnig muscles and tendons to work together with my VT techs, so im relaxed in ways seperate to whats shown....i have my own version of balance between relaxation and body mechanics based on what im trying to accomplish physically.

IMHO one common example of using relaxation in the forms seen today is in CK.

Some schools in the second section turing with Lan sau then turning back to middle Bong etc. some pull lan Sau and then turn straight from the Lan into Bong.
Others lower the hands from Lan into a crossed wrist type position around the waist then turn the horse and into the middle Bong.

When i noticed the changes or difference to how i was taught years ago i asked my teacher and he had told me his teacher Lok Yiu had made that change in the form (for our lineage anyway) for two reasons. One of which was relaxing the shoulders after than Lan Sau.. the other was to help emphasise the elbow force which is more apparent when turning into bong with the hands coming from a lowered waist position.

So depending on your purpose relaxing is fine just be aware of its downstream effect on your habbit actions and behaviour of body mechanics.

I'll just say interesting opinions and approach.


My view on SLT is far removed from a Chi Gong (sp?) exercise. :o and i can still be very soft if you touch hands with me.


And that is where many of the externalists misunderstand "softness", where one is soft and relaxed yet "heavy" and without floppiness. I am afraid that the only way an externalist is going to understand, is by being shown by a sifu, a REAL sifu I might add.

[Liddel]

- a lot of beginners seem to find this difficult - but do it in concert with the other joints most of the time as incorporating more joints leads to increased movement efficiency.

I totally agree Andrew newbies do find it tough., our view is that its better to get it right in the beggining to forge habit, so begginers can have a rough time at our school.
Our approach is very step by step, more so than other schools ive visited and the incorporating of more joints is slowly introduced. mainly in touching hands parts of VT which we teach before CK. Which is when you put the SLT actions on the CK horse for the whole body experience. :)


I'll just say interesting opinions and approach.

I like to use the word - pragmatic.



And that is where many of the externalists misunderstand "softness", where one is soft and relaxed yet "heavy" and without floppiness. I am afraid that the only way an externalist is going to understand, is by being shown by a sifu, a REAL sifu I might add.

This infers my Sifu isnt a real Sifu. LOL .crack up :p

Dont think that because one doesnt see SLT or any of the forms for specifically training chi kung, they cant hold the attributes that youd get from doing so.

I am very much
soft and relaxed yet "heavy" and without floppiness but FOR ME its born out of doing the actions in a fighting context not from specific breathing during the forms....its from doing !

Chi Dan Sau Poon Sau Gor Sau Luk Sao... fight.

DREW

[HardWork8]

This infers my Sifu isnt a real Sifu. LOL .crack up :p
Maybe he isn't or maybe he is or just maybe he is somewhat limited in whatever he teaches. Maybe he teaches the external aspects very well? Who knows.

All I know is that the internals are present in all kung fu and they are balanced with the external aspects of each given style by design.
If one aspect is not taught, then THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG SOMEWHERE!


Dont think that because one doesnt see SLT or any of the forms for specifically training chi kung, they cant hold the attributes that youd get from doing so.

You can only get the attributes of internal training from internal training, which by the way, is not solely limited to breathing exercises!


I am very much but FOR ME its born out of doing the actions in a fighting context not from specific breathing during the forms....its from doing !
Don't assume that we don't practise the actions in a FIGHTING CONTEXT. The forms training is just one aspect (important)of the internals and don't make the mistake of thinking that the internals are only about the breathing exercises!


Chi Dan Sau Poon Sau Gor Sau Luk Sao... fight.
So do we and so do other traditional schools but we also do the internals. Why do you think that is the case?

[Liddel]

You can only get the attributes of internal training from internal training

Ok



which by the way, is not solely limited to breathing exercises!

I had mentioned that myself in the last thread so we're lost in translation...

For the sake of the discussion please let me know what you consider internal training, meaning the main specific methods and what results they yeild compared to someone not having internal training...(dont worry about breathing cause we already touched on that)

Then perhaps ill get a better understanding of what exactly you mean by internal...

DREW

[bennyvt]

No we dont use it as Qi gung. The main idea is that by moving slowly you learn what contstant forward pressure is. It also teaches the most important thing in a fight, will power. To stand for about an hour take alot of mind control whiich will win fights. Wong shun leung , yip man and barry Lee all did hour forms.
No I dont do it in class as it only goes for 2 hours, we do a quick one (15mins) then check each others form. I do it on my own as I dont have a class that goes all day. I normally do it at work as I work as a security gaurd doing patrols every hour so I have the time.
Wong had a very dim veiw of "internal" arts, he was hit with a dim mak in a fight and lived for another 20years, left people when he was young because they used used qi as a way of making claims and trying to look good.
Long forms make better stances, more control, learn to relax what you need and tense others, mind over matter and many more.

[HardWork8]

No we dont use it as Qi gung. The main idea is that by moving slowly you learn what contstant forward pressure is. It also teaches the most important thing in a fight, will power. To stand for about an hour take alot of mind control whiich will win fights. Wong shun leung , yip man and barry Lee all did hour forms.
You have just mentioned some internal elements there, even if they are not part of deep internal training. If that is how you train then fair enough and it is good training.

We do the long version of the Siu Lim Tao and tend to concentrate a lot on the breathing.


Wong had a very dim veiw of "internal" arts,
His view of the internals is very well known.:eek:


he was hit with a dim mak in a fight and lived for another 20years,
And then he died suddenly! Umm, I wonder...........Maybe it was a very,very,very delayed death touch???

Seriously though, a lot of people claim a lot of things about kung fu. The fact is just because who Dimmaked him didn't kill him doesn't mean that such techniques don't exist and that Internal training is bad.

There are a lot of crooks in the external side of the martial arts as well. It does not mean that these martial arts are bad!


left people when he was young because they used used qi as a way of making claims and trying to look good.
A lot of people who practise external MA's claim to teach the ultimate selfdefense techniques as well. Many of these "functional" martial artists are crooks as well. That does not mean that all such martial artists are con men.



Long forms make better stances, more control, learn to relax what you need and tense others, mind over matter and many more.

You are correct, but there are forms that have internal aspects that are not always taught, because sometimes they are considered "treasures" of a given system.

However, and because of the former fact, many sifus do not know of their existance and hence do not give such aspects the "respect" that they deserve. By the way, I am not talking about Wing Chun necessarily as this type of "richness" more often exists in the major internal styles, such as Hsing I, Tai Chi and others.

[HardWork8]

For the sake of the discussion please let me know what you consider internal training, meaning the main specific methods and what results they yeild compared to someone not having internal training...(dont worry about breathing cause we already touched on that)
I am not going to go into specifics or "methods" as those are kept within the school, but I will tell you that the "non breathing" exercises involve the development and training of tendons for combat application.

This is considered internal as well! And by the way, we do this kind of training more in my non Wing Chun school. But the fact is that there is more to internals than just breathing exercises.


Then perhaps ill get a better understanding
You have plenty to work on there.



of what exactly you mean by internal...
The more correct way would be to say "of what the original masters of particular styles of kung fu meant by internal." As these are not concepts invented by me. I don't invent styles, even if it seems to be the fashion nowadays!

[anerlich]

From another site:

In the 1950's, Chang Tung Sheng, grandmaster of the Pao Ting Chinese wrestling system, national free sparring champion of China and undefeated in all challenges (and would remain so the rest of his life!) gave an interview in a Chinese news paper. He said that for years, he had heard people say that wrestling was not effective because to get that close, you could be subject to the fabled death touch of dim mak!

Chang found the comment amusing because he said that in all his years of fighting, it had never happened. It had never happened even when fighting so called experts at Dim Mak. In a nut shell, Chang said two more things. First, that if he could get close to you, he could hurt you! (It was the truth, pure and simple and if you've ever seen tapes of the 70 year old Chang tossing people you'd understand completely). Second, he said the whole Dim Mak thing was created by NON FIGHTERS to avoid fighting, keep their students and take money from other non fighters.

Chang then issued a very public challenge with money involved for anyone to Dim mak him. For another 30 plus years (the rest of his life) it never happened.

[anerlich]

There are as many different definitions of "internal" as there are people claiming to know something along these lines.

Some see it as nothing omre than correct alignment and structure for transmission of power, or its absorbtion/dissipation.

My Xingyi instructor saw it as movements and practices which adhere to the principles of TCM - Xingyi is based on five element theory, BaGua on the 8 trigrams, taiji on Yin and Yang. He claimed that for this reason styles other than these three cannot be internal. I have seen arguments that the 5 elements can be mapped onto WC movements, and therefore WC can be internal, but IMO the arguments are unconvincing.

Performance in any physical endeavour has to comply with the laws of physics and biomechanics first and foremost, as much as some seem to claim and wish it to be otherwise.

There seems to be an opinion helde by some that Iron Palm training is closely related to Qigong. Not really. Iron Palm, from what I've seen from several sources, involves striking bags and surfaces of varying hardness at varying intensities, coupled with the external application of herbal medicines to assist recovery and achieve the desired effect. Other than the herbs, the recipes for which are usually jealously guarded (meaning there is little comparison of efficacy and thus no guarantee of it, and concepts such as scientific testing and double blind trials an utter pipe dream), there is little mystery here, your body is adapting to imposed demands.

There is plenty of material on point hitting and the alleged affects thereof on the web - Erle Motaigue's site has a huge amount of stuff, some of which stretches credibility. Renzo and Carlos Gracie Jr were dead keen to fight him during an Australian visit some years ago after he insulted Gracie Jiu Jitsu in a mag article, but he surprisingly declined.

William Cheung does, or used to do, a seminar on dim mak. Like many, I have a copy of Yip Man's alleged notes on the subject. After the seminar, he basically says unless you can actually fight without it, it's a waste of time, and if you can fight without it, then its value is still questionable.

Nothing there you won't find in a basic TCM seminar (notes in my .sig)

[Liddel]

Interesting post Andrew thanks for the info...

Hardwork8 - i didnt ask because i have no clue of the internals :rolleyes: i asked to get your perspective which you cant offer cause of your secret school policies LOL

Just like who you train under and the 'other style' you train in....ive seen the miriad of threads addressing your BS...
Just thought we could take a step in the right direction, but hey come to a forum to announce you cant announce $ h i t.. WTF LOL

First sign of a trolling keyboard warrior. Its not like i could steal your techs from a worded description...you said earlier you need actuall instruction from a competent master, which i agree with from my own personal experience...

My Sifu is of the same opinion as myself that Dim Mak isnt that effective in a fight.... and as far a 'death touch'.... its legend. Which to me says a lot because as well as being a VT sifu he is a Sifu of Caligraphy and chinesse medicine...so he has a valid opinion in this area....:cool:

DREW

[couch]

I am not going to go into specifics or "methods" as those are kept within the school, but I will tell you that the "non breathing" exercises involve the development and training of tendons for combat application.

This is considered internal as well! And by the way, we do this kind of training more in my non Wing Chun school. But the fact is that there is more to internals than just breathing exercises.


You have plenty to work on there.



The more correct way would be to say "of what the original masters of particular styles of kung fu meant by internal." As these are not concepts invented by me. I don't invent styles, even if it seems to be the fashion nowadays!

You're a freaking piece of work. You come off to Drew like he has 'plenty to work on?' (I know he can defend himself, but you're ridiculous). And then he asks you a legitimate question about what YOU mean about training internals and you completely dodge the question.

Answer the questions and don't patronize the people on the forums that are actually putting in work - or go elsewhere.

[Toby]

interesting; what caused you to decide to do so on your own (just wondering about your process in that regard)?I was taught a version of SLT in class with the in/in, out/out method and that was all well and good, I trained that way for a while. Then a couple of years ago we were working on a few things where inhaling reverse-breathing style initiates movement, so one day I found myself incorporating that into that section of SLT and it felt good. I asked my teacher about it and he said fine, if that felt right and I got the right mechanics happening. He then went on to tell me about the natural, no-rhythm approach. Nowadays I could breathe in or out in that section of SLT and both would feel fine since I've spent time on both. I will say that I very much find myself synchronising all my form movements with breathing, can't/won't/don't do the natural thing at all.

[Liddel]

Clutching at straws 'man'.

[Toby]

Then I am afraid that you have totally misunderstood the internal approach to kung fu.

You can never and I mean NEVER get anywhere in the mastery of the internals without understanding the SCOPE and the DEPTH of relaxation involved. It is a complicated theory and it is not widely taught beyond a superficial level and hence all the misunderstandings.I'm aware of what most people think. It doesn't make sense to me at all, nor to my teacher, nor his. Not that I care, but AFAIK I'm in a very traceable and reputable line of IMA so this isn't something I've made up. I will say this - apparently eventually I should expect to reach a level where I might look "soft" to an observer and feel "soft" and "relaxed" myself, but I should actually feel like an immoveable object to an opponent (i.e. the "needle wrapped in cotton" analogy). However I should expect ~10 years of pain and hard work first, by training very "not relaxed".

I don't understand how people advocate total relaxation will make you faster, harder, stronger. Not possible IMHO. Unless you train those attributes in another way.


Then feel free to contact the sifu or master in the video with your criticisms and "teachings"!Why? I couldn't care less.


However, when you do have the required power in your strikes then you need to think about the TECHNIQUES and their possible variations. And areas like the Snake, Tiger, Leopard will widen that scope, but NOT without the complimentary Iron Palm practice!So you've got the required power? I don't. I won't ever be satisfied with my level of power. That's what I prefer to develop over my hand shape.

[Toby]

Some interesting things said in this thread, lots I agree with.


There are as many different definitions of "internal" as there are people claiming to know something along these lines.Yeah, the main ones I've heard are "internal" to China, i.e. Taoist roots. One I can't remember offhand, and this one:


Some see it as nothing omre than correct alignment and structure for transmission of power, or its absorbtion/dissipation.This ties in closely with what I spend a lot of my time training.

[cjurakpt]

I was taught a version of SLT in class with the in/in, out/out method and that was all well and good, I trained that way for a while. Then a couple of years ago we were working on a few things where inhaling reverse-breathing style initiates movement, so one day I found myself incorporating that into that section of SLT and it felt good. I asked my teacher about it and he said fine, if that felt right and I got the right mechanics happening. He then went on to tell me about the natural, no-rhythm approach. Nowadays I could breathe in or out in that section of SLT and both would feel fine since I've spent time on both. I will say that I very much find myself synchronising all my form movements with breathing, can't/won't/don't do the natural thing at all.

cool; thanks for sharing your experience

[cjurakpt]

I don't understand how people advocate total relaxation will make you faster, harder, stronger. Not possible IMHO. Unless you train those attributes in another way.
this is a common misconception, and IMPE relates to a misunderstanding of the Chinese term "sung", which is a core concept in taiji and bagua (and probably other arts) and which is a very difficult term to translate - many people interpret it as relaxation and manifest it as almost a collapse of the body's structural integrity; certainly relaxation is part of it, but it's a dynamic "relaxation", combined with a springy-ness, a resiliancy - you know you have it when you have it, both by how you feel inside once you get it, and also when you touch hands w/someone who has it (once you get it, pushing / rolling hands is totally changed: you listen, stick, etc. at a different level); based on your previous post, it sounds like you are not unaquainted with this concept in your solo practice at least...

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are as many different definitions of "internal" as there are people claiming to know something along these lines.

Some see it as nothing omre than correct alignment and structure for transmission of power, or its absorbtion/dissipation.

My Xingyi instructor saw it as movements and practices which adhere to the principles of TCM - Xingyi is based on five element theory, BaGua on the 8 trigrams, taiji on Yin and Yang. He claimed that for this reason styles other than these three cannot be internal. I have seen arguments that the 5 elements can be mapped onto WC movements, and therefore WC can be internal, but IMO the arguments are unconvincing.

Performance in any physical endeavour has to comply with the laws of physics and biomechanics first and foremost, as much as some seem to claim and wish it to be otherwise.

There seems to be an opinion helde by some that Iron Palm training is closely related to Qigong. Not really. Iron Palm, from what I've seen from several sources, involves striking bags and surfaces of varying hardness at varying intensities, coupled with the external application of herbal medicines to assist recovery and achieve the desired effect. Other than the herbs, the recipes for which are usually jealously guarded (meaning there is little comparison of efficacy and thus no guarantee of it, and concepts such as scientific testing and double blind trials an utter pipe dream), there is little mystery here, your body is adapting to imposed demands.

There is plenty of material on point hitting and the alleged affects thereof on the web - Erle Motaigue's site has a huge amount of stuff, some of which stretches credibility. Renzo and Carlos Gracie Jr were dead keen to fight him during an Australian visit some years ago after he insulted Gracie Jiu Jitsu in a mag article, but he surprisingly declined.

William Cheung does, or used to do, a seminar on dim mak. Like many, I have a copy of Yip Man's alleged notes on the subject. After the seminar, he basically says unless you can actually fight without it, it's a waste of time, and if you can fight without it, then its value is still questionable.

Nothing there you won't find in a basic TCM seminar (notes in my .sig)

You have to take Dim Mak for what it is and ignore it for what it is not.

[Toby]

this is a common misconception, and IMPE relates to a misunderstanding of the Chinese term "sung", which is a core concept in taiji and bagua (and probably other arts) and which is a very difficult term to translate - many people interpret it as relaxation and manifest it as almost a collapse of the body's structural integrity;Yes! This is what I see a lot of in online videos, and this is what I vehemently oppose (IMHO of course - others obviously see it as a valid training method and an effective vehicle to get them where they want to be). It's scary (to me) to see how many advocate this method (as evidenced in a recent thread on the other "internal" forum (fuck I hate that word). Hell, it was clearly evident in the SLT/qigong video earlier in the thread. I can find so many faults in that video (from my perspective) it's not funny.


... certainly relaxation is part of it, but it's a dynamic "relaxation", combined with a springy-ness, a resiliancy - you know you have it when you have it, both by how you feel inside once you get it, and also when you touch hands w/someone who has it (once you get it, pushing / rolling hands is totally changed: you listen, stick, etc. at a different level); based on your previous post, it sounds like you are not unaquainted with this concept in your solo practice at least...Yes again. I edited a previous post to reflect what you've said. I should've thought about that post more carefully, I missed a few things. I've felt this and maybe occasionally get glimpses of it when freeplaying (for want of a better term). But I'm not at that stage in my training and I don't train to get that effect yet, there are stages I need to progress through first.

[Sihing73]

TTT

Just making sure you know its back :D

Please keep on topic and refrain from insults, personal attacks, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TTT

Just making sure you know its back :D

Please keep on topic and refrain from insults, personal attacks, etc.

Where's the fun in that ??

[Liddel]

What i want to know form you guys is how 'In your opinion' does practice of the internals maifest itself in your application of Wing Chun....

What does it add to the use.... So we can actually get some valid info rather than the "i cant mention the methods cause its secret" BS. :rolleyes:

I find that the VT im taught has the idea of being firm but relaxed...but in application its when and where possible.

IMO Chun by its very nature is internal because regardless of Lineage not using force against force has major cross over between lines, more so than other maxums

IMO though, all MA's have this in some part.

For me the idea of being firm but springy (someone used this term earlier) is about holding your ground in an area of fighting but knowing when to change and adapt depending on whats going on.

For example my Tan is firm in dispersing an attack, forces pressing on it are met with resistance...but to a certain point, at which time i let it go and change to Bong for instance to let forces go and attack open space with my free weapon, kick or punch.

The threshold obviously differs for each individual.

If im cliched up and pushed back im may try to stop being pushed but if the force becomes to much i may turn and try a throw or at least gain space ad timing to land an uppercut from CK or an elbow etc...

This is one aspect IMO and its just scratching the surface..... i would like to hear more from others...but

I find the idea of the 'internals' from my own POV to be entwined in the VT i do, its not here's VT now well do some internal training, its inherent in my actual style if you will. We train our bodies to behave and have the physical atributes to assist the body mechanics for the techs we're using as were doing learning them...

So this is why from my own POV i find it interesting when people talk about the internals as being a kinda seperate entity etc...

Thoughts ?

DREW

[anerlich]

Some other thoughts:

IMO this discussion won't reach any resolution or consensus (not that it has to!) without some sort of common understanding of what "internal" means.

My Xingyi/BaGua teacher held that internal does not necessarily imply softness.

According to him, Xingyi techniques can be HARD. "Hard as a fist of diamond," to paraphrase Henry Rollins. Far from flowing like water, they're like a titanium battering ram going straight up the middle. But, once again in his opinion, Xingyi is the most internal of the three neijia arts because it most precisely uses the principles of TCM , five elements, in its fundamental techniques and even basic defensive strategy. It's internal because of its base in TCM principles, not because it is "soft".

Is "internal":

* a system built on a conceptual framework of TCM

* built on yi (mind force) and qi (you know what that is, don't you?) rather than li (muscular strength)

* a set of training methods whose movements with respect to their purported goals are unusual, counterintuitive, esoteric, or even weird, goofy and run counter to modern science and even common sense

or something else?

[Mr Punch]

...I find the idea of the 'internals' from my own POV to be entwined in the VT i do, its not here's VT now well do some internal training, its inherent in my actual style if you will. We train our bodies to behave and have the physical atributes to assist the body mechanics for the techs we're using as were doing learning them...

So this is why from my own POV i find it interesting when people talk about the internals as being a kinda seperate entity etc...Nicely put. This is what I've been slowly trying to nudge HW towards.

If I had to choose, I'd say my wing chun was external. But it has a lot of internal components. Chi is not one of them.

Anerlich is bravely trying to recouch the 'What is internal?' question. Well, that question is eternal!

Briefly put, to me internals are training parts of your body you can't see. It manifests itself in structure: an awareness and connectedness to kinetic chains in the body and how they effect your opponent through principle and technical application.

But that's all bull. There's no need for the distinction.

[Toby]

"Hard as a fist of diamond," to paraphrase Henry Rollins.I prefer "as hard as a diamond in an ice storm", to paraphrase Ricky Bobby.

Otherwise agree with this:

I find the idea of the 'internals' from my own POV to be entwined in the VT i do, its not here's VT now well do some internal training, its inherent in my actual style if you will. We train our bodies to behave and have the physical atributes to assist the body mechanics for the techs we're using as were doing learning them...

So this is why from my own POV i find it interesting when people talk about the internals as being a kinda seperate entity etc...
and this:

a set of training methods whose movements with respect to their purported goals are unusual, counterintuitive, esoteric, or even weird, goofy and run counter to modern science and even common sense
and this:

Briefly put, to me internals are training parts of your body you can't see. It manifests itself in structure: an awareness and connectedness to kinetic chains in the body and how they effect your opponent through principle and technical application.

But that's all bull. There's no need for the distinction.

For me, I find anerlich's quote resonates particularly well. Stuff I learn often seems counterintuitive (or at least not something you'd think of yourself) yet it feels right and works well. A simple, harmless example - spread your fingers as wide as you can, keep your thumb straight. Now keep everything the same but pull the index finger as much as you can towards the thumb. Dunno about you but for me it engages the hand, forearm, upper arm and shoulder much more. One small change brings lots of change. I've got plenty of examples like that, where a minor change completely changes everything. This is just a simple "trick" with moving a finger, I've got things like that that apply to the whole body. The finger one is easy for anyone to try and less important than a body one. I've got another good "trick" I'd like to mention but it's probably best to refrain from posting it publicly. Anyway, nothing secret or "internal", it's just training in a different way, building a machine by individually tweaking all the parameters.

So in reply to:

What i want to know form you guys is how 'In your opinion' does practice of the internals maifest itself in your application of Wing Chun....

What does it add to the use.... So we can actually get some valid info rather than the "i cant mention the methods cause its secret" BS. :rolleyes:I dunno. I don't have a control sample since it's ingrained. I'd like to think that it makes me stronger, faster, better than a hypothetical control sample. It certainly hurts more so I can feel myself working harder. I've lifted a lot of weights so as an analogy it feels like the weight's always going up - it never gets easier. I know I'm doing the work so hopefully it's producing results. Dunno.

[jooerduo]

the extra power or strength you get from being relaxed, is not from being relaxed alone

you need to be relaxed, have a supporting body mechanic and know how to use that body mechanic with correct use of intentions in the mix, with a good balance of yin and yang, and works better if you time it based on your opponent's intention - thats my experience in a nutshell

[HardWork8]

I'm aware of what most people think.
I am also aware of what most people "think" as well.


It doesn't make sense to me at all, nor to my teacher, nor his.
Maybe you should search "outside"? I am not recommending that you leave your present school, but you can always attempt to research this concept further. Who know, you might even find a master or sifu who can give you a better personal understanding?


Not that I care, but AFAIK I'm in a very traceable and reputable line of IMA so this isn't something I've made up.
The world is full of kung fu schools of "traceable and reputable lines" but as everybody knows it is not full of authentic kung fu schools.

;)That is an interesting paradox.


I will say this - apparently eventually I should expect to reach a level where I might look "soft" to an observer and feel "soft" and "relaxed" myself, but I should actually feel like an immoveable object to an opponent (i.e. the "needle wrapped in cotton" analogy).
Now, that sounds familiar.

The concept is sound and that is what many internal martial arts train for and when they are doing so, they include a lot of chi kung exercises in their training. Emphasis is placed on training of tendons. Furthermore weight training is avoided specially by the most internal of styles.



However I should expect ~10 years of pain and hard work first, by training very "not relaxed".

And after 10 years of hard training you may touch hands with someone who is "softer" than you and he will completely overwhelm you. The "softness" training is an ungoing practice and it continues until the "end".


I don't understand how people advocate total relaxation will make you faster, harder, stronger.
It is relaxation without FLOPPINESS! I have been through this subject with other "distinguished experts" of this forum. Thanks for bringing back the memories,:mad::D!

By the way, I hope that you can bring yourself to see the relationship between being relaxed and striking "faster", to hitting "harder".........The whole concept goes further than this, but this is a good place to start.;)



Not possible IMHO.
It is possible once the concept is better understood.


Unless you train those attributes in another way.
Unfortunately, sometimes the "another way" will take you away from that very "relaxation" and "softness" you are looking for.;)

A decent internal school will help you "connect" your internal training with those very attributes of making you harder, faster and stronger.

I am not talking necessarilly about Wing Chun here, either. Wing chun's internals are limited in most part compared to arts such as Hsing I.


Why? I couldn't care less.
But you "cared" enough to criticise that very same sifu. As I stated before, you should perhaps consider "looking" outside!


So you've got the required power?
I did not say that I have the required power. It is an ungoing process.


I don't.
Join the club.


I won't ever be satisfied with my level of power.
That is good too and I would suggest that you go further and don't be satisfied with your level of kung fu knowledge and understanding, that way you will research and perhaps see the other possibilities that exist inside the arts.



That's what I prefer to develop over my hand shape.
If you are referring to Iron Palm, then I will tell you that the purpose of this type of training is not to change the shape of your hand and at an advanced level nor is it to harden your hands.

[Toby]

The concept is sound and that is what many internal martial arts train for and when they are doing so, they include a lot of chi kung exercises in their training. Emphasis is placed on training of tendons.Yes, we do this through "hard work", not total relaxation and feeling the chi (like the guy in that video).


Furthermore weight training is avoided specially by the most internal of styles.I'm allowed to weight train, no problem. But I do powerlifting, not some of the more detrimental forms of weightlifting. I'll admit that e.g. bodybuilding might not be ideal.


And after 10 years of hard training you may touch hands with someone who is "softer" than you and he will completely overwhelm you.Maybe. We'll see.


It is relaxation without FLOPPINESS! I have been through this subject with other "distinguished experts" of this forum. Thanks for bringing back the memories,:mad::D!Yeah, this is the distinction that no-one can define. How much should you relax? The answer is usually "just enough effort to get the job done". How do you know that in advance? And then when you strike, e.g. in that video, guaranteed you "unrelax" to strike. So when should you relax and when "unrelax"?


By the way, I hope that you can bring yourself to see the relationship between being relaxed and striking "faster", to hitting "harder"...Yeah, I know that relaxing an antagonist muscle can help with the striking, but what about the agonist muscle? No-one from the "relaxation" school of thought likes to talk about those.


I am not talking necessarilly about Wing Chun here, either. Wing chun's internals are limited in most part compared to arts such as Hsing I.Agreed.



But you "cared" enough to criticise that very same sifu.I was responding to a post. Doesn't mean I'm going to find the guy, contact him and give him a bullet-point list of what I think's wrong with his approach from my perspective. And do you think he's going to care what I say?

[CFT]

It is funny how many "kung fu" people who don't think twice about crosstraining in a dozen other (sometimes irrelevant) MA's or "cross-fighting", don't take the time to research and understand the more subtle aspects of kung fu."Cross-fighting" is just another name for beimo (competing/comparing martial arts). The history of kung fu is replete with beimo stories.

[bennyvt]

call it what you want. Its crap. You try to pretend that you know more then everyone else and you believe fairy tales . You insult people that are legends and proba why you and your teacher did vt in the first place. Its alot easier when you keep it a secret or say people just didnt learn it when you have nothing to back it up. I believe you are completely full of 'chi' and you need to either stop insulting your betters (i mean wong not me) and keep your internal crap to your boyfriend

[bennyvt]

my point warmt about how long you have trained. 7 years is a considerable time but some of the people that you have said have "missed' out on some thing have done alot more. The fact that a lineage doesnt have internal stuff was your point. Then you refer to mckwoons as to say that because i or my school dont beleive in chi that we dont do it right. Or did i misunderstand. Can u see how that is insulting. I have gone to hong kong and china and looked and felt others and do not feel that i an missing anything.. And as far as the weights go what do you think the sold and knives do. Heavy arent they. And with different equipment like medi calls. Kettle bells. Off set bars etc, you can nearly replicate an alive weight.

[SimonM]

"Cross-fighting" is just another name for beimo (competing/comparing martial arts). The history of kung fu is replete with beimo stories.

<cough>Huo Yuenjia<cough>

[anerlich]

HardWork8
Banned

Simon M, I know you're atheism's warrior, and I agree, but sometimes I think there is a God (or at least a decent moderator).

[Ali. R]

Why should someone as truthful as he, ‘HW8’ get banned? Could you give me at least two honest answers, and please be careful on your approach, remember you took the horse around the barn many times (disrespect) including me.

And if ‘God’ was to make such a move, then we all should be banned, including you…

Be careful on what you ask for.

I remember a church that prayed for rain during a democratic convention, and during their convention (GOP) they got over three hurricanes…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why should someone as truthful as he, ‘HW8’ get banned? Could you give me at least two honest answers, and please be careful on your approach, remember you took the horse around the barn many times (disrespect) including me.

And if ‘God’ was to make such a move, then we all should be banned, including you…

Be careful on what you ask for.

I remember a church that prayed for rain during a democratic convention, and during their convention (GOP) they got over three hurricanes…


Ali Rahim.

IF you have to ask, you haven't been paying close enough attention.
Now, I don't know WHY he was banned NOW, but I know WHY he should have been banned before:
Making dubious claims about a WC lineage that he showed no proof of belonging to.
Now, I say dubious simply because I think fradulent is too strong a word.
He made simialr claims on another website, except on that one their were investiagted and shown to be false.

[Ali. R]

Slow down, that’s not enough, especially without proof within your post that deals with his character, and its many people that are here as we speak, are not trust worthy, and they shouldn’t be banned because of that fact…

Before or while making your claims of his character, please add proof…

Thanks, but no thanks… The question was not for you…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Slow down, that’s not enough, especially without proof within your post that deals with his character, and its many people that are here as we speak, are not trust worthy, and they shouldn’t be banned because of that fact…

Before or while making your claims of his character, please add proof…

Thanks, but no thanks… The question was not for you…


Ali Rahim.

Proof?
There was TONS, links and everything !
This was months ago !
Well, since as YOU said, the question wasn't for me and I have closed the chapter on HW8 a long time ago when I put him on ignore, I suggest you PM Gene, since HE banned him.

[Ali. R]

I’m reading all of his post (on this thread) and just cant figured it out…
Well I’ll just drop the subject…
:confused:

Ali Rahim.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Please keep in mind that several of his (HW8) posts have been deleted so you are looking at what was not deleted.

Simply put, HW8 was given ample opportunity to change his manner of posting, yet failed to do so. He would often cite the failures of others without taking the time to consider his contributions to such behaviour. There were numerous instances where his abrasive manner of posting was inflamatory and could also be construed as insulting to others on this forum, many of whom would be considered his seniors. One of the biggest considerations was his personal flame war between himself and several others carrying over to this forum.

There were many reasons which would be used to "justify" banning someone. In all cases this is a last resort and one not desired by myself. However, when someone brings nothing but dissent to this forum then they need not be here. There are several who are close to this, but in almost every other instance when asked to reign it in a bit they do so, at least for a while. In this case the individual, and another, failed to do so and as a result were banned. Whether or not they return in the future will depend on their ability to learn from this instance.

As always anyone wishing to discuss this or any other matter is free to contact me directly. However, please do not continue to waste bandwidth discussing matters which have nothing to do with Wing Chun.

[Ali. R]

Thanks Dave,

Thanks for the informative information that sounds more believable… I got banned for using religious saying in my signature when asked not to, but did anyway, and I can point out one that still does…

When you get a letter from the Mod, just stop doing what you’re doing, because they will ban you , lets all just move on.


Ali Rahim.

[SimonM]

Simon M, I know you're atheism's warrior, and I agree, but sometimes I think there is a God (or at least a decent moderator).

Yea let us give thanks to the almighty Gene Ching who smiteth the troll, the flamer and the unworthy. May he hear our "aves" and let his countenance to shine down upon us.

And now, having just read Sihing73's request I will say no more on this matter.

[Ali. R]

As always anyone wishing to discuss this or any other matter is free to contact me directly. However, please do not continue to waste bandwidth discussing matters which have nothing to do with Wing Chun.

I think this statement was a statement meant for everyone, unless you’re a contributor or something…

What’s done is done, lets move on.


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing Chun in Norway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj5B4NN_yu8&feature=related

[Liddel]

Why should someone as truthful as he, ‘HW8’ get banned?

OMG
:eek::p:cool:

I asked this pages back and even people that had nothing specific posted as such, if you not sure say so.... im certain of some things not so sure of others so i ask questions from those that appear to have more insight... perhaps like yourself Ali.....


What i want to know form you guys is how 'In your opinion' does practice of the internals maifest itself in your application of Wing Chun....

DREW

[Toby]

What i want to know form you guys is how 'In your opinion' does practice of the internals maifest itself in your application of Wing Chun...I sort of tried to answer this before in saying that I don't know. But here's an example. Say you're splitting logs for the fire, digging a trench with a mattock or driving posts with a sledgehammer. You raise your arms to lift the tool above your head - start position. To initiate the action, instead of swinging your arms, you keep your arms still in relation to your body and crunch your stomach like you're doing a sit up*. The arms will still move somewhat but the whole action is driven much more by the body than the limbs. The WC analogy is maybe a jum - your body presses your opponent, not your arm - the arm is fixed relative to your body.

Same thing with horizontally swinging an axe to chop a tree down - the stomach drives the action*, not the arms - ideally the arms stay fixed in relation to the upper body. The WC analogy is kau sao (sp?) to get from inner gate to outer gate and either turn the opponent's centre and/or trap his elbow.

* "Stomach" is greatly simplifying things. But in terms of "internal" training we work the core a lot and this carries over to all actions. I can and do use it a lot of the time, not just for WC but for everyday actions (picking something up, opening a door, etc).

I used to train my stomach heavily with my fitness and strength training (i.e. outside WC) and similar principles were used occasionally in old-school exercises. E.g. Pavel Tsatsouline's "full contact twist" springs to mind.

[Liddel]

Nice one Toby i fully appreciate what your saying... my curiosity is sparked though in respect to calling this 'internal'.

If this is widely accepted that what you provided are some good examples of what we refer to as 'internals' then it stems back to my point about, for me personally - i feel its very integral in terms of my VT.... and also that almost every martial art has elements of this.

They way we turn using body and horse together is the biggest commonality in the VT world.

One life example is picking up heavy objects - my father has a bad back - his habbit action when picking things up was with his back, more often than not nowadays people are a little more informed knowing to bend at the knees to avoid such back problems etc... and the knees and ams together are more powerful than the back alone.

One example i notice in VT is double guarn Sau. Many put the guarns out to the side of the body first and using all arms press them to the center. Others put them out in front from thier guards and turn from the waist in unisen etc...

I turn at the waist and hinge with the wrists for added attack force (inch power) with Guarns but yeah it lends to your point.

Do you feel that you have to practice internals seperate or are they an integral part of your chun like i touched on earlier ?

Anyone else got examples of application of internal training ?

DREW

[Toby]

... my curiosity is sparked though in respect to calling this 'internal'.Yeah, hence my dislike of the term. There's more to it though, which is why the asterisked part.


They way we turn using body and horse together is the biggest commonality in the VT world.Yeah.


One example i notice in VT is double guarn Sau. Many put the guarns out to the side of the body first and using all arms press them to the center. Others put them out in front from thier guards and turn from the waist in unisen etc...You mean the double garn sao section from BJ? Then yeah, agreed again. Your comment brings up an important point though - turning the waist has to be trained. Typically a beginner (pre-CK stage) won't have learned the turning so they'll just wave their arms around like you mentioned. You've got to learn how to do it right.


Do you feel that you have to practice internals seperate or are they an integral part of your chun like i touched on earlier ?Both. It's integral, but it doesn't come from WC (it's been added in). And we do separate exercises to train stuff, from different systems. Most of the more senior students in the school learn other systems too besides WC so we have a fair amount of mixture happening. Boundaries are clear, but we do mix and match e.g. in one evening. But even beginners are taught from very early on some of the stuff that they will need to concentrate on and which becomes more important when they progress. E.g. when I started learning XY, I'd already trained a bunch of stuff unwittingly, we get prepped along the road without knowing it. It's also why XY isn't typically taught to beginners in our school, the WC is a "proving ground".


Anyone else got examples of application of internal training ?Related to my earlier example and your discussion of double garn saos. I'm sitting in a chair right now with my arms in front - start position. Nothing happening in my stomach*. If I hold my right arm to the left side like I'm reaching for something as far across as I can but keeping my body facing forward, my stomach activates a bit, mostly on the right side. I can reach to the same spot keeping my legs and bum straight ahead but turning my upper body. To do this I've got to reach across, activate my stomach* to keep up with my arms and I get much more activation. A third way would be to turn my stomach* and make the arms keep up. The effect of the last two is the same but the subtle mental difference brings a different activation level and a different intent.

* Again, lots of other things happening besides just contracting the abdominal muscles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to internal VS external, IF you wanna categorize training into this, its your choice and if you wanna categorize systems by them, agian, your choice.
I don't.
That said, when you ask for example of how something "internal" is manifiested, you need to make clear what YOU view as internal.

[Toby]

In regards to internal VS external, IF you wanna categorize training into this, its your choice and if you wanna categorize systems by them, agian, your choice.
I don't.Neither do I. I don't mind identifying IMA as the big three, BG, TC and XY, but ...

That said, when you ask for example of how something "internal" is manifiested, you need to make clear what YOU view as internal.... if I had to make a definition mine was back a couple of pages, there (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=890509&postcount=72). Specifically concentrating mostly on the "core" (another overused word I dislike).

[SimonM]

See the problem with the "concentration on the core" description of IMA is that it describes all martial arts.

Name me one, just one, valid martial art that says "don't generate power from your torso". Everyone knows that the hips and (to a lesser extent) the other major pivot points of the torso is where powre is generated from.

That doesn't make "IMA" any different from "EMA".

[bennyvt]

for anyone that read my posts before they were wiped, I shouldnt have resorted to the same level. I took several things as offencive. I was purely trying to answer the questions about the time needed for the form and had my master and school bad mouthed as we don't beleive in Chi. I should have been more "relaxed" and "flowed like water" and not let it worry me. But there was about two pages of our insulting each other which I should not get into, as they say "you can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a hockey mum" LOL:D
I find it depends on what you mean by internal. Is this Chi or energy or is it simply control, strength, structure, body unity and muscle recruitment. My teacher is a member of the sceptic society so this would tend to mould the way I think also.
Chi was a great way of explaining science when they couldnt use the tools we have now to test and discovery why things work. And when you break it down its alot like string theory. But I find that it is a major reason why people think kung fu is crap where as when you explain it using biomechanics and anatomy and physiology then I feel it makes more sense.

[Toby]

<edit>This was in reply to SimonM</edit>

You're probably right. You've had a lot more exposure to different styles than me. I guess all I can say is that the way in which we work everything (not just the core) has seemed highly unusual and counterintuitive at times to me. And with respect to the core it's not just a matter of contracting abdominal muscles, there are many other things going on. And being just a junior student I'm not really able to discuss them. But vaguely speaking there are spirals, expansion, contraction, etc happening. So that's my perspective. But yeah, again there's no distinction between IMA and EMA, they're arbitrary terms. I mean, you see the same power generation methods (driving from the torso) clearly demonstrated by high-level athletes in all sports, not just MA and combat sports. E.g. a good golf swing, a good tennis swing, a good paddler, a good surfer, etc.

[SimonM]

As they said in Little Nicky



It's all in the hips. :cool:

[Toby]

I find it depends on what you mean by internal. Is this Chi or energy or is it simply control, strength, structure, body unity and muscle recruitment. My teacher is a member of the sceptic society so this would tend to mould the way I think also.Yeah, I'm a skeptic too. My teacher explains things to me with this in mind. Nothing mystical on our part either.

[Toby]

As they said in Little Nicky

:cool:Wrong Adam Sandler movie ;) Nice quote though and spot on.

[SimonM]

Wrong Adam Sandler movie ;) Nice quote though and spot on.

IT is used in Little Nicky... in the heaven sequence... it may be used in Happy Gilmour as well...

[Toby]

No way?! I looked it up and you're right (haven't seen Little Nicky). It appears to be a cross-reference between his films. In Happy Gilmore it's when Chubbs stands behind Happy like they're very "close friends", showing him how to do a golf swing and repeating the phrase while they swing their hips together so I thought you were quoting in the context of my earlier mention of golf.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All pale in comparison to "meet the Zohan" !
" why do you hit me, I feel no pain"...

[TenTigers]

that is because there is no internal/external. These are terms first coined in an article by Sun Lu-Tang, in which he catagorized Ying Yi Kuen, Bot Gua Jeurng, and TaiGik Kuen (XY,BG,TJQ) as being of the internal school and Shaolin and others being of the External School. Now these terms are thrown around by what I refer to as Internal MA Snobs, as a Holier than Thou term. ALL MA is internal.
It combines not only "core" or integrating the torso, but unifying the entire body-"From the ground, through the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed through the hands"coupled with relaxation of antagonistic muscle groups in order to most effectively recruit the protagonistic groups, and generate power. Reaxation is not flacid and limp ("we use only the ch'i to strike"-If your body moves, muscles are being used. period.) It simply means you are not "driving with the parking brake on."

Many of the isolated movements and "Ch'i-gung" method of performing certain sets, be it SLT or Sam Bo Gin, in my opinion (based on my thus far limited experience) do more to allow the student to develop the awareness of how his muscles and sketetal alignment are used, as well as breath and relaxation, allowing for the above to occur.

I have seen my teacher, with a very small movement, project a six-foot,four,350 lb high ranking BB backwards off his feet. I have felt his shock power that for lack of a better term, felt like my body was jolted. No, it's not some mysterious power, it's the years he put in training the above principles. Something few people in this day and age are willing to do.(which is why alot of "real, high level,Gung-Fu" will probably never be seen again-but that's for another thread altogether)

BennyVT's discription of ch'i is excellent, but that being said, I must admit, there are still things that defy description and boggle the mind. So for now, I guess the term,Ch'i still stands. Again, remember that Chinese Martial Scholars have terms and concepts that in a word, describe what can fill up volumes. Take the word, Sung. People write endlessly on this. Why? Because it is nearly is impossible to describe what can only be felt and understood within one's own body. This is why true Gung-Fu can only be taught through direct, transmission, hands-on, from Sifu to student. The word, Ch'i is a term that encompasses so much, from "simple" body mechanics, to the regulating of the body's internal organs and function.

I believe that it is a term used by "people who know," that rather than spending all the time explaining every sublte nuance, simply have found a term that expresses it in a word, and it is immediatley understood.
There are many things which can only be experienced and not conveyed through words to those who have not. The feeling of the adreneline response, or total fear, or the rush of skydiving,or an orgasm,or the taste of chocolate,or the birth of your own child, or losing a loved one,etc.
So....."ch'i."

[kung fu fighter]

that is because there is no internal/external. These are terms first coined in an article by Sun Lu-Tang, in which he catagorized Ying Yi Kuen, Bot Gua Jeurng, and TaiGik Kuen (XY,BG,TJQ) as being of the internal school and Shaolin and others being of the External School. Now these terms are thrown around by what I refer to as Internal MA Snobs, as a Holier than Thou term. ALL MA is internal.
It combines not only "core" or integrating the torso, but unifying the entire body-"From the ground, through the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed through the hands"coupled with relaxation of antagonistic muscle groups in order to most effectively recruit the protagonistic groups, and generate power. Reaxation is not flacid and limp ("we use only the ch'i to strike"-If your body moves, muscles are being used. period.) It simply means you are not "driving with the parking brake on."

I completely agree with the above, i would like to add that wing chun movements are initiated from the kwa area with leverage from the ground by rooting.

[bennyvt]

I really like that describtion from ten tigers. The problem is normally down to interpretation. I class myself more as an agnostic (don't know but am willing to find out) then a skeptic but I have many disscussions over the no muscle to move thing. I agree their are many things that we can't explain but when we can using modern terms that we know are correct I think we should.

[taai gihk yahn]

that is because there is no internal/external. These are terms first coined in an article by Sun Lu-Tang, in which he catagorized Ying Yi Kuen, Bot Gua Jeurng, and TaiGik Kuen (XY,BG,TJQ) as being of the internal school and Shaolin and others being of the External School. Now these terms are thrown around by what I refer to as Internal MA Snobs, as a Holier than Thou term. ALL MA is internal.
couldn't agree more! SLT's writing seems to have been a watershed event - actually, it's a good read and very informative, in terms of how SLT basically "spins" his whole perspective - basically salesmanship 101 - create the need, fulfill the need (Tim Cartmell has a good comment on this on his website as well); SLT was literati; like any nerdy geek, he probably was stressed out about how some burly ruffian w/ 1/10 of the degree of training he had could basically kick the sh1t out of a taiji guy w/20 yrs. experience; so he comes up w/the whole "internal" not only as a set of styles, but as a concept that should take you you whole life to get, hence the lack of immediate utility...and hence the HTT attitude being not only formed but stoked


It combines not only "core" or integrating the torso, but unifying the entire body-"From the ground, through the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed through the hands"coupled with relaxation of antagonistic muscle groups in order to most effectively recruit the protagonistic groups, and generate power. Reaxation is not flacid and limp ("we use only the ch'i to strike"-If your body moves, muscles are being used. period.) It simply means you are not "driving with the parking brake on."
exactly - if you move, muscles are working; the question is, HOW are they working? are agonist / antagonist force couples opposing each other, or firing / inhibiting in a coordinated manner? and are they firing in coordination with the elastic recoil of the non-contractile connective tissue structures that store and release both ground reaction and an opponent's in coming force? this concept is encapsulated by the taiji principle "yaht dung, chai dung" - "one moves, all moves";
I think that one reason that many peeps drive w/one foot on the gas and one on the break, is that this mode of operation gives one more proprioceptive feedback - meaning that for peeps who may not have the best sens eof where their body is in space, doing this creates more resistance / noise in the system as a means of extra feedback; especially because when you operate without doing this, in a way you don't feel much of anything, so you need very good body awareness to operate this way; otherwise, it can make you feel sort of insecure; over time, as body awareness improves, you can operate w/out creating extra resistance, and all of a sudden your technique gets better;
in a way, I think that "tension" based form training sorta corrects this by going in the opposite direction: if you really exaggerate the braking while having the gas going, you highlight what that feels like, and also give the body a lot of input to handle and organize around - if you move softly right after, you have sort of satisfied the system's desire for increased proprioceptive input, and while it's chewing on that bone, you are able to move in a more integrated manner without the self-interference...great example of how to "fool" the nervous system out of a detrimental habit...
also, this is why I think the notion of using "muscle" has gotten such a bad wrap - when you self-resist, you can really tell you are using muscle; when you get out of your own way, it seems like muscular effort is minimal to non-existent; to someone unaware of the realities of neuromuscular function, t certainly could seem like you were using any muscle!


Take the word, Sung. People write endlessly on this. Why? Because it is nearly is impossible to describe what can only be felt and understood within one's own body.
personally, I like the term "resilience" - actually, and I could be wrong, but I like to think of "sung" as one side of the coin, and "pang" as the other side - "sung" being the relatively receptive aspect (hence many people misunderstanding it as "relaxed" or "collapsed", taken to an extreme by some CMC peeps IMPE) and "pang" being the expressive one - you really need both - no "sung", can't have true "pang" and vice / versa; you see illustrated this in those "suck / spit" type moves (both in taiji and so. short hand) - some people are very good at one or the other, but you need both to have the whole picture
this also relates to the concepts of "gan" (root) and "hing" (lightness); "gan" and "sung" are tied together, as are "pang" and "hing", although you find each within the other as well; again, many peeps have one or the other, but at least for many TCMA styles, it is the combination of each that is desired;

[bakxierboxer]

that is because there is no internal/external.....

A really good presentation of things I've figured out and taught over the years.

The only "exception" I take with it is that first sentence.
"Believe it or not"...... "There was a time" when the Chinese folks were, uhm, "nationalistic" (in some cases to an extreme degree) and "internal" arts were those that were "native", while "external" arts were those that originated "anywhere else".
(kind of like the more modern NIH (Not Invented Here) Syndrome.
(this is occasionally noticed with the reference to some Shaolin/Buddhist styles as "Fut Gar")

[Ali. R]

I’m a true fan of my students because; they will always be my best teachers…

The sound track is a remix that I did on my home studio 40 track digital tascam board… A song that I wrote, sang and produced…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L77c9nCuNos


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

I’m a true fan of my students because; they will always be my best teachers…

The sound track is a remix that I did on my home studio 40 track digital tascam board… A song that I wrote, sang and produced…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L77c9nCuNos


Ali Rahim.

Ive been too caught up in my own training to notice but that clip took me outside of it all. We do have a nice size group. Thanks for sharing this, mane!

[TenTigers]

nice chops! Kinda an Al Green vibe, funky and rockin at the same time.
:cool:

[Ali. R]

nice chops! Kinda an Al Green vibe, funky and rockin at the same time.
:cool:

I played that clip for my wife (the song is about her), now I’m sitting here eating fried green tomatoes, eggs, turkey bacon, home made biscuit and a hot cup of coffee , ‘Chris” knows what I’m talking about, he had breakfast with my family many of times… …

Life’s a wonderful thang…

Thanks and take care,


Ali Rahim.