Snake and Crane in Wing Chun

[BruiserBrody]

Can anyone tell me the relationship between snake style(s) and crane style(s) to wing chun. Where these arts among those wing chun derives?

[Phil Redmond]

Can anyone tell me the relationship between snake style(s) and crane style(s) to wing chun. Where these arts among those wing chun derives?
Snakes strike linear like WC's straight punch and biu jee. Cranes use their beaks and wings to fight on an angle like gan, bong, double gan, etc.

[Toby]

There are sections in CK, BJ and the dummy that are very snake-influenced. Both in terms of striking and mechanics of movement. Phil covered the crane.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig

For those that can't get youtube at work and/or may not know who those gentlemen are, can you bring them up to date?

[chusauli]

WCK is based on one animal -

the Ameba!

Now if someone calls you the lowest form of life, thank them!

:)

Forget about Crane and snake... :)

[Wu Wei Wu]

"It becomes even more of a mystery. Amoebas seem to use different engulfing tactics to suit the various types of prey. They can detect if a prey needs a fast approach (ciliates) or can be feasted on as a slow meal"

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artsep01/amoeba.html

If the idea is to move like an amoeba to 'eat the space of your opponent' then sure, Wing Chun is very much like the amoeba. If the idea is to adapt and 'be like water', then sure Wing Chun is like the amoeba. If the idea is to be like a single-celled organism limited to discussing Wing Chun in a youtube clip by sitting around a table, then sure, Wing Chun may be like an amoeba.

(Sorry Hendrik, just a cheeky poke. To be honest I didn't watch your clip in its entirety and I am sure there are things I would agree with. Its just that I like to watch Wing Chun in action is all).

In terms of Snake and Crane in Wing Chun. For me, their relevance is limited to the origin myth of Wing Chun. Far better to be concerned about making Wing Chun work than seeing which animal each move looks like.

Suki

[Hendrik]

WCK is based on one animal -

the Ameba!

Now if someone calls you the lowest form of life, thank them!

:)

Forget about Crane and snake... :)



Robert,

Very True :)

[LoneTiger108]

In terms of Snake and Crane in Wing Chun. For me, their relevance is limited to the origin myth of Wing Chun. Far better to be concerned about making Wing Chun work than seeing which animal each move looks like.

As far as I'm concerned, what a Wing Chun student 'looks like' can depict what type of strength he is using, or 'jing' as Hendrik puts it. This isn't just muscle manipulation, it's oldskool heigung (chigung/qigong)

How and when the snake & crane combination came about is anyones guess, although I have heard various 'stories and folklores'. One of the first dual animal styles to come out of Shaolin was the Tiger & Crane (if not THE first) of Hung family origin.

The snake was more linked with older Taoist principles, especially with regards to breathing and tendon strengthening exercises. These ideas wer also closely linked to the females of the time, many claiming to know the 'secrets' of the Tao. I believe the legends surrounding our style only help us to understand the development of Chinese Martial Arts as a natural process (and one in which HAS to involve women)

Therefore snake = yin/soft/female and the crane = yang/hard/male

If you do not train in this way and are 'unbalanced', you may never even feel what Wing Chun is in it's simplest form. Indeed, SLT has both yin/yang snake/crane but how you decipher and find the knowledge is not commonly known imo.

Stanzas and Kuen Kuit are a 'finger pointing to the moon'. They help and assist, but are in no way an ultimate truth. Most I've read are just 'individual hints & tips' to be honest.


Now if someone calls you the lowest form of life, thank them!

I forgot to thank you the first time Robert Sifu, so thank you.

FWIW I like your analogy.

[bennyvt]

very very funny

[chusauli]

Forget snake and crane, think ameoba!

Snake and crane = limbs, although they have body motion, too. If you want to think snake and crane, think the body not the limbs. Snake is entering "s" like, slithering, movement left and right and darting; Crane is like a dog shaking off water, but also floating, sinking, swallowing and spitting...combining is the 6 powers...

Ameoba = body entering at all weak points against weak bridge unsupported by a structure. That means posing type gung fu - all show, no use.

[Hendrik]

As far as I'm concerned, what a Wing Chun student 'looks like' can depict what type of strength he is using, or 'jing' as Hendrik puts it. This isn't just muscle manipulation, it's oldskool heigung (chigung/qigong)....



Since decade ago, the discussion of snake and crane and SLT have seldom passed the physical or biomechanical domain thus it looks like the Jing and flow of energy part of WCK is fading away with time.



We old guys are obsoleting.....

Somedays all of these will become a legend or legends....

[stonecrusher69]

Forget snake and crane, think ameoba!

Snake and crane = limbs, although they have body motion, too. If you want to think snake and crane, think the body not the limbs. Snake is entering "s" like, slithering, movement left and right and darting; Crane is like a dog shaking off water, but also floating, sinking, swallowing and spitting...combining is the 6 powers...

Ameoba = body entering at all weak points against weak bridge unsupported by a structure. That means posing type gung fu - all show, no use.

Hi Robert wanted to ask you since you talk a lot about structure. Do you feel structure (as great as it is) is also limited.Just as muscle strength is limited so is structure.If two people possess great structure then who has the advantage? Both are on the same playing field. At that point, I think the next step would be to let go of the structure but still have it at the same time. To be in the Void....

[Lee Chiang Po]

Black and white will make gray. Good and bad will make mediocre. You can not mix anything with WC without degrading it's foundations. Snake, tiger, crane, and especially mantis, will literally destroy your structure and the very foundations of your WC.

[Phil Redmond]

Black and white will make gray. Good and bad will make mediocre. You can not mix anything with WC without degrading it's foundations. Snake, tiger, crane, and especially mantis, will literally destroy your structure and the very foundations of your WC.
Don't take the snake and crane principles so literally. It's just a way of explaining linear and angular attacks and defenses.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Don't take the snake and crane principles so literally. It's just a way of explaining linear and angular attacks and defenses.


OHHH. ok

[Liddel]

If two people possess great structure then who has the advantage? Both are on the same playing field. At that point, I think the next step would be to let go of the structure but still have it at the same time. To be in the Void....

hypothetically two fighters with equal structure = it then becomes about timing IMHO...

I would argue will is the decider also over to physically equal fighters.
I give my opinion cause im big on VT structure also.

P.S i like alot of what the Chi Sau li guys advocate :)
DREW

[Wu Wei Wu]

"As far as I'm concerned, what a Wing Chun student 'looks like' can depict what type of strength he is using, or 'jing' as Hendrik puts it. This isn't just muscle manipulation, it's oldskool heigung (chigung/qigong)"

I have no issue with you examining students in terms of which animals they look like. However, I am not sure how this would provide any insight as to "what strength he is using". Wing Chun men should be pragmatists. The type of indicators they should use for assessing a movement, is its effectiveness. You would be hard pressed to find an effective fighter who mimics animal movements whilst fighting (outside of Kung Fu flicks). However, if you want to name good fighters based on whether they are effective you need look no further than the top rated guys in MMA.

I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, ether, telekinesis, remote viewing... etc. While it may be fun to try to think in pseudo-supernatural energetic terms, I don't think it is progressive. If anything, it is unhelpful as it can become a preoccupation used as an excuse to avoid training with intensity and purpose.

FWIW, I think Phil is on the right line with "Don't take the snake and crane principles so literally. It's just a way of explaining linear and angular attacks and defenses".

Lastly, I am not sure whether Robert's post mentioning "spitting and swallowing" is appropriate for a family oriented forum like this ; )

Suki

[Hendrik]

"


I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, ...



Until we know what is Jing, Chi and how to evoke them and direct them, we dont know what is it means.

What is Jing? what is Chi? for some Jing is as real as gold.

Crane and snake have thier significant in training the Shen, Qi, and Jing. Until those are experience as the ancient, we dont know. Dont we want to find out what happen?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, ether, telekinesis, remote viewing... etc. While it may be fun to try to think in pseudo-supernatural energetic terms, I don't think it is progressive. If anything, it is unhelpful as it can become a preoccupation used as an excuse to avoid training with intensity and purpose.



Suki


Quote for importance.

[Wu Wei Wu]

"Until we know what is Jing, Chi and how to evoke them and direct them, we dont know what is it means. What is Jing? what is Chi? for some Jing is as real as gold. Crane and snake have thier significant in training the Shen, Qi, and Jing. Until those are experience as the ancient, we dont know. Dont we want to find out what happen?"

Hi Hendrik,

Do we have any proof that Jing, Chi is not a product of a psychosomatic desire to look beyond the human condition almost akin to a strong desire to believe in God. I respect your search and wish you success and hope that one day we will all be able to share in the spoils of your endeavour once you have uncovered the 'secret'.

Right now, I don't know how to evoke Jing anymore that I know how to evoke poltergeist. I am not in search of Jing, Chi, the philosopher's stone or El Dorado. You suggest that the ancient experienced these things and for some reason they are now lost to us. If they are lost, let them remain lost!

Why not embrace those things that are available. Why not invest that effort into understanding the biomechanics behind force generation? Why not look at technological advances and see how they can be used to facilitate Wing Chun skill? Why not look at increasing tendon and ligament strength, maximizing the incorporation of fast twitch fiber, trying to figure out how to overcome golgi tendon inhibition?

Similarly, why not go so far as looking to see how your perceptive reality is a product of your linguistic frame of reference (Korzybski), how to overcome psychological barriers in performance using reframing, anchoring, swish patterns, understanding the nature of aggression on a hormonal level (adrenaline/cortisol), as well as understanding how violent confrontations happen, and how the street predator is likely a hardened recidivist?

Judge a punch by the impact it makes, not the way in which your body vibrates creating a spiral of chi reverberating through your spine.

In short, time can be spent in one of two ways; searching for meaning through a cloud of smoke or creating meaning by touching, feeling and embracing that which is manifest!

Suki

[Hendrik]

"Until we know what is Jing, Chi and how to evoke them and direct them, we dont know what is it means. What is Jing? what is Chi? for some Jing is as real as gold. Crane and snake have thier significant in training the Shen, Qi, and Jing. Until those are experience as the ancient, we dont know. Dont we want to find out what happen?"

Hi Hendrik,

Do we have any proof that Jing, Chi is not a product of a psychosomatic desire to look beyond the human condition almost akin to a strong desire to believe in God. I respect your search and wish you success and hope that one day we will all be able to share in the spoils of your endeavour once you have uncovered the 'secret'. ......

Judge a punch by the impact it makes, not the way in which your body vibrates creating a spiral of chi reverberating through your spine.

In short, time can be spent in one of two ways; searching for meaning through a cloud of smoke or creating meaning by touching, feeling and embracing that which is manifest!

Suki

I cant expect more than your Good honest reply.

however, lets not forget that we all sees the world within our mind set. Some has wider mind set some is narrower and some is limitless.

Different people exist in this world with different purpose and doing different things.

Thus, everything is well and so be it.

[chusauli]

Hi Robert wanted to ask you since you talk a lot about structure. Do you feel structure (as great as it is) is also limited.Just as muscle strength is limited so is structure.If two people possess great structure then who has the advantage? Both are on the same playing field. At that point, I think the next step would be to let go of the structure but still have it at the same time. To be in the Void....

LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword. :)

Assuming the "level" playing field, the one who changes better is better.

Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

Most know the positive, if they know any at all.

[Iron-Man]

LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword.

Dont kid yourself .........that is what you would like to believe !



Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

An obsession with body structure is only useful if you intend on fighting like a robot....its the actual strike that counts. IMO flow and power is more important. All structures achieve is locking a position momentarily........against a punch rather a waste of energy !

Structures is only really useful when weapons are involved.

[kung fu fighter]

LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword. :)

Assuming the "level" playing field, the one who changes better is better.

Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

Most know the positive, if they know any at all.

Hi Robert,

Structure is generally known as ground reaction force similar to peng jing's expanding force in tai chi, which is what I assume you ment by positive structure.

what's your definition of negative structure? is it the opposite contracting force like lu jing in tai chi?

[LoneTiger108]

I like Wing Chun, lots in fact. But I see no reason why an effective Wing Chun man needs to get caught up in esoterica like 'jing, hei-gung, nei-gung, chi, ether, telekinesis, remote viewing... etc. While it may be fun to try to think in pseudo-supernatural energetic terms, I don't think it is progressive. If anything, it is unhelpful as it can become a preoccupation used as an excuse to avoid training with intensity and purpose.

sanjuro_ronin added:
Quote for importance.

Yes it is important that these terms do not interfere with your training Suki, but when you use words like 'intensity' and 'purpose' you are actually linking to the shen, qi and jing concept Hendrik mentions. In fact, I would debate whether either is actually possible without the other.

As far as the 'characteristics' of the animals, that is ALL they are. Characteristics.

This can be seen and experienced in numerous ways and isn't JUST depicted by the movement or breathing imo. There is something to be said for 'strategy' don't you think? The strategy of the snake in comparison to the crane?

[TenTigers]

Dont kid yourself .........that is what you would like to believe !




An obsession with body structure is only useful if you intend on fighting like a robot....its the actual strike that counts. IMO flow and power is more important. All structures achieve is locking a position momentarily........against a punch rather a waste of energy !

Structures is only really useful when weapons are involved.

What are you talking about? Flow and Power IS structure. Structural alignment does not mean stiff and unyielding, locked up like a robot. You can be "soft,"resilient and rooted at the same time. You can be strong and hard in an instant. You can "whip" into a strong alignment, only to completly relax in an instant. Anytime you use your body to jolt someone, you are doing this. If you had no structure, you would collapse at the point of misalignment. Whether it is your stance, your body, or your bridge. These things are Basic Martial Arts 101.

-well, the concepts are.
Achieving the skill is quite another story. ;-)

[stonecrusher69]

LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword. :)

Assuming the "level" playing field, the one who changes better is better.

Structure is powerful on the negative as well as the positive.

Most know the positive, if they know any at all.

Do you mean dumping or letting go of the force? when you talk about a negative structure.

[chusauli]

Fighting like a robot! LOL! That's in your mind! :) But is okay; if you never saw, you don't know...

What Ten Tigers is talking about is more like it. You whip your core into your weapon or contact point and immediately uproot your opponent, then you give them a good beating.

But of course, this is unkind talk. We martial artists don'thave to do that.

Mostly WCK people without structure fight like robots! Only moving shoulders and arms, and locked stance with no kua movement. That's robotic and idiotic! :) Or even kicking with a snap of the leg and no stomp or hip movement. You may need to practice your pelvis/kua on your girlfriend or SO more... :)

Positive = when you throw force in your strike
Negative = receiving force back into your root and skeletal alignment

As for Jing, Qi, Shen, we beat that topic to death. The Chinese meant it metaphorically for processes they were trying to describe.

Good martial arts => Good health, when mind, body, spirit align

More tea please!

You guys need to become the lowest form of life for your core and kua; but don't start taking on those personality traits in talk and action... LOL!

All tongue in cheek! Don't get your undies bunched up!

[taai gihk yahn]

Why not embrace those things that are available. Why not invest that effort into understanding the biomechanics behind force generation? Why not look at technological advances and see how they can be used to facilitate Wing Chun skill? Why not look at increasing tendon and ligament strength, maximizing the incorporation of fast twitch fiber, trying to figure out how to overcome golgi tendon inhibition?
I think I'm gonna fall down on top of myself - YES, finally, what I've been saying for, like, ever: acknowledge that, as technology has improved, the ability to analyze how the body is constructed and how it functions have moved beyond the METAPHORICAL DESCRIPTORS utilized by TCM and the like; meaning that, there is nothing at all wrong with using those descriptors, because they were based on empirical "research" from which a relatively reliable and valid system was derived; however, we can now more specifically understand how muscles and tendons are built, and know how to optimize their function; and yes, if you look at "classical" exercises, many of them do "get it" and do work these things based on empirical outcome-based "research", but at the same time are laden with certain misconceptions as well; current understanding about how the neuromuscular system organizes in gravity is very useful in terms of understanding the biomechanics of force generation, vis a vis coordinating neuromuscular function and viscoelastic properties of connective tissue with breath mechanism and ground reaction force (basically explaining why a good push-hands player can "effortlessly" toss you around to a certain extent, especially if you are willing to participate on a non-conscious level);


Similarly, why not go so far as looking to see how your perceptive reality is a product of your linguistic frame of reference (Korzybski), how to overcome psychological barriers in performance using reframing, anchoring, swish patterns, understanding the nature of aggression on a hormonal level (adrenaline/cortisol), as well as understanding how violent confrontations happen, and how the street predator is likely a hardened recidivist?
I feel like a kid in a candy shop! cognitive behavioralist technology (NLP) is a very powerful tool and absolutely has ramifications in this regard; managing adrenaline dump / mediating sympathetic response is critical, both for oneself and understanding the notion of habituation vis a vis repeat violent offenders; also, the behavioral piece explains a lot about why certain "masters" are able to toss their students around even when the student believes that they are maximally resisting...


Judge a punch by the impact it makes, not the way in which your body vibrates creating a spiral of chi reverberating through your spine.
this metaphor is really about how the tensegrity-based connective tissue system mediates ground reaction force in conjunction with neuromuscular activity...


As for Jing, Qi, Shen, we beat that topic to death. The Chinese meant it metaphorically for processes they were trying to describe.
can I have an "AMEN" from the choir, and an "ALLELUIA"!!!

good GOD!! HW8 banned and all of a sudden some sort of innate forum intelligence spontaneously manifests itself!

[Iron-Man]

What are you talking about? Flow and Power IS structure.

I assumed Robert was referring to biomechanical structural alignments. Power and flow is a combo of muscular reflexes.


You can be "soft,"resilient and rooted at the same time. You can be strong and hard in an instant. You can "whip" into a strong alignment, only to completly relax in an instant. Anytime you use your body to jolt someone, you are doing this.

True but you can also uproot someone easily without the need for momentary alignment (if you dont know how then maybe i can say 90% who know also have no idea ;))

Having to jolt someone to uproot or to send them back IMO is 'Old school' knowledge and pretty common knowledge amonst most Southern CMA.

You just need to know how to press off from your hips and torso but your arms does half the work but they dont have to be structured to take someones balance.

Everytime you have to 'lock' or 'whip' into alignment you interupt flow and still acting robotic even if it is only for a split second. If one knows how it should be enough just to breath in to uproot, why do it the hard way ?

Wrestlers can do it so why cant WC !

[TenTigers]

you left something out:


Anytime you use your body to jolt someone, you are doing this. If you had no structure, you would collapse at the point of misalignment. Whether it is your stance, your body, or your bridge. These things are Basic Martial Arts 101.

I get what you are saying, and your points are valid,
but I was not simply referring to only uprooting. (I'm not as articulate as I would like)

Notice I said,"Whether it is your stance, your body, or your bridge"
include your strikes, kicks,jerks,etc.
Absorbing energy on your bridge, such as when you strike and you are met with opposition-you can absorb,collapse,eat his power, or change the direction of your energy into it at another angle. Without structural alignment, you will simply collapse under the opponent's energy.
Alignment is also crucial in striking.
Muscular strength will only get you so far. It will enable you to accelerate the mass, and of course increasing the mass will add to this,
but if there alignment behind this, the strike will indeed hit much harder,
as well as avoid injury.
When you punch, is your elbow behind the fist?
This is alignment, yes?
In Gung-Fu there is the saying,"The whole body is the fist."
Alignment, body integration, converging energy-it's all connected.


Get it? "It's all connected!" HAHAHAHA :-)

(****, that's funny.)

[Iron-Man]

good GOD!! HW8 banned and all of a sudden some sort of innate forum intelligence spontaneously manifests itself!

Actually i for one thought some of his post were quite intelligent its just that some of what he was saying was over and above a few of the guys who post here ! Its probably a case in a few years time when some of those guys get more exposure to other CMA that they might actually see that some of his points are actually valid though i admit his mannerism is not 'Chan' enough. But then Robert insulted pretty much all of us here and didn't see anyone complain? So i shall assume i am part of the 10% using this great Buzzword but not quite really understanding it !

Better get ready for the mad influx of $$$students to your door as now we all finally realise we all had it wrong..........:rolleyes:

The fact is there is a lot of Kung Fu Perse coming into WC and just on this thread alone gives a good example. WC is no different to MMA in that it is evolving and as such is sourcing and integrating more knowledge from other CMA that fits its framework.

It wasn't that long ago when blinkered WC'nrs were making claims that they were the invincible/superior MA'rts and that it must be learnt from Grandmaster HK Phooey to be effective (or you may even seriously hurt yourself !)and i guess a few of them are still preaching.

[T.D.O]

i stopped reading this.....

but i thought the snake was direct and the crane was redirecting and simultaneous attack and defence.... hence when the snake attacked the crane it used it's wing to redirect the attack and at the same time pecked the snake

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually i for one thought some of his post were quite intelligent its just that some of what he was saying was over and above a few of the guys who post here ! Its probably a case in a few years time when some of those guys get more exposure to other CMA that they might actually see that some of his points are actually valid though i admit his mannerism is not 'Chan' enough. But then Robert insulted pretty much all of us here and didn't see anyone complain? So i shall assume i am part of the 10% using this great Buzzword but not quite really understanding it !




If you don't or can't see the difference between Robert and HW8, I feel for you, I truly do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the best examples of "structures" one can see in every day sport performance are the elite level fighters or athletes that seem to perform with never effortless power and grace.
They do this because they have found the best way to get "maximum gains through minimum effort", in other words, structure.

[CFT]

Actually i for one thought some of his post were quite intelligent its just that some of what he was saying was over and above a few of the guys who post here ! Its probably a case in a few years time when some of those guys get more exposure to other CMA that they might actually see that some of his points are actually valid though i admit his mannerism is not 'Chan' enough. But then Robert insulted pretty much all of us here and didn't see anyone complain? So i shall assume i am part of the 10% using this great Buzzword but not quite really understanding it !Newbie Iron-Man wades in and defends HW8. Anyone smell a rat?

A high percentage of HW8 were condescending and boiled down to "sifu sez". As to the content being over people's heads ... when some experienced people like cjurakPT (RIP, long live "t g y" ;)) take him up on the details he complains that it is too difficult for everyone else to understand :rolleyes:. Of course he presumes this because he considers every other forum member a "kickboxing knucklehead" because they train more than one martial art or compete. Such an "intelligent" assessment.

[Vajramusti]

One of the best examples of "structures" one can see in every day sport performance are the elite level fighters or athletes that seem to perform with never effortless power and grace.
They do this because they have found the best way to get "maximum gains through minimum effort", in other words, structure.[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True that. BUT: For top performance, top performers go to top coaches and trainers who know what they are doing.
Details of structure will vary with the nature of the activity involved. Good wing chun structure will be different from that of other "performers". Best to get a wing chun teacher, sifu or coach who knows what they are doing- rather than "debating" on net forums. To say that much of thread discussions is true debating would be inaccurate anyway, IMO

joy chaudhuri

[Iron-Man]

Newbie Iron-Man wades in and defends HW8. Anyone smell a rat?

Oh so now one is not allowed freedom to express an opinion on this forum :confused: Do i have to follow the sheeps.......? I happen to feel he has livened up the threads he has joined based on the number of hits they got :D

Robert obviously thinks posters of the like of you are ............are hmm ....how can i say ?
The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure I'm actually defending you doh !

For the record i did say 'SOME' of HW8 post........ and for that matter i also think 'some' of Roberts posts are intelligent and also above a 'few' of your heads because he too i'm sure has taken the time & effort to look outside of his front door to enable him to speak with authority. But that does not allow him the luxury of denigrating other forum members.

Personally i thinks he's not too far of the mark but etiquette like that would certainly not be welcomed in my house.


If you don't or can't see the difference between Robert and HW8, I feel for you, I truly do.

An insult is an insult even if Downey Jr had said it ! though i would still want his autograph afterwards :D

This is my final post on this thread and i'll leave you all to work out what 'TRUE STRUCTURE' is ??? (psst. if you cant work it out ? there is a good vid from one of his students you can buy which shows you... shhhhhhhh dont tell everyone ;))

Sorry Bruiserbody for the sidetracking your thread.

[CFT]

I'm actually defending you doh !You praise me with faint d@mns. Thanks but no thanks.

Maybe Robert Chu and HW8 are saying the same thing in different words, but RC is addressing the missing skills not outrightly calling everyone a knucklehead. Sifu Chu speaks from a position of experience whereas HW8 from personal bias.


This is my final post on this thread and i'll leave you all to work out what 'TRUE STRUCTURE' is ??? (psst. if you cant work it out ? there is a good vid from one of his students you can buy which shows you... shhhhhhhh dont tell everyone ;))Old hat. Alan Orr's video/DVD series is public knowledge on this forum. I have had the pleasure of attending one of his seminars and it was a wake up call. If the seminar attendees are representative of the general WCK practicing populace then Robert Chu's 90% figure is not far wrong, and I count myself in that 90% so I don't need defending. Guilty as charged.

I'm not in a position to train to be in the other 10% but I know it is out there and when my personal circumstances change I will want to train in those methods.

FWIW I give you the benefit of the doubt. Please share your thoughts on structure with us.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the best examples of "structures" one can see in every day sport performance are the elite level fighters or athletes that seem to perform with never effortless power and grace.
They do this because they have found the best way to get "maximum gains through minimum effort", in other words, structure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True that. BUT: For top performance, top performers go to top coaches and trainers who know what they are doing.
Details of structure will vary with the nature of the activity involved. Good wing chun structure will be different from that of other "performers". Best to get a wing chun teacher, sifu or coach who knows what they are doing- rather than "debating" on net forums. To say that much of thread discussions is true debating would be inaccurate anyway, IMO

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

100% agreed.
Though humans move as humans and certain things are uniform, there is still quite a bit of specilaization in almost any physical activity, even more so at the elite levels.

[Ali. R]

One of the best examples of "structures" one can see in every day sport performance are the elite level fighters or athletes that seem to perform with never effortless power and grace.

They do this because they have found the best way to get "maximum gains through minimum effort", in other words, structure.


To any wing chun scholar or martial artist out there: that information is more then worth it’s weight in gold…

Thanks Joy!


http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To any wing chun scholar or martial artist out there: that information is more then worth it’s weight in gold…

Thanks Joy!


http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

LOL !
Thanks Ali ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Here's a pic from an out of print White Crane book. I see a tan sao and a mid level bong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's a pic from an out of print White Crane book. I see a tan sao and a mid level bong.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen that move in other systems, even some very modern, practical, weapon arts.

[chusauli]

Yesterday, my mechanic and his apprentice came to my home to change my brakes. The elder, senior mechanic let his 20 year old apprentice do most of the work removing the tires and old brakes. You could se the definition in his forearm and biceps and triceps as he struggled with removing the tire and brakes.

When it was time for the senior man to work, he was a model of efficiency; in very little wasted motion, he was able to replace the brakes and mount them in seemingly little effort. I studied his body motion and saw he was positioned properly and used proper mechanics to turn nuts and bolts and with a careful eye check for damage to my car's structures to avoid any future breakdowns.

It was all very clear who was more efficient!

Structure is not just on or off, but varying degrees of it. You have partial tension in certain muscle chains and can guide vector forces through the body. All WCK has some knowledge theoretically about structure; but not everyone pays full attention to it.

As for Iron Man, please take things less personally; no one needs defending here. There is no attack, just a discussion over tea. Also the emoticons may have been omitted from your visual perception... :) Perhaps a weakness in the armoring or from armoring? :) Everything read with a neutral tone will do quite nicely.

Nice to hear from you Joy! Hope life is well!

Best regards,

[Phil Redmond]

I can't tell you how many times I have seen that move in other systems, even some very modern, practical, weapon arts.
And so have I. A shape is a shape. The Chinese like to use "colorful" descriptions for things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And so have I. A shape is a shape. The Chinese like to use "colorful" descriptions for things.

Indeed, they are not the only ones though, have you heard of some of the colorful names that the Dog Brothers give their stuff?
Zirconia
Dracula
Dog catcher
etc..

[LoneTiger108]

And so we attack with structure like this:


LOL! The problem is 90% of WCK have no idea of true structure, and the other 10% just use the buzzword. :)

Then we realize that the ferocity is noted, so we re-root with comments like this:


All WCK has some knowledge theoretically about structure; but not everyone pays full attention to it.

It may be better for the discussion to align the structural debate with the snake and crane characteristics.


... A shape is a shape. The Chinese like to use "colorful" descriptions for things.

Okay Phil, so what IS name for the posture in the White Crane book? :D

[TenTigers]

I have that book, one of my personal faves. Whatever happened to Micheal P. Staples?
Sifu Chu, I understand what you mean about the skilled mechanic. I would drive a screw home, and my dad, who was late into his seveties would always be able to put another turn on it, and I was twice his size. Experience. There is no substitute for the years one puts into his craft. btw- any word from Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming ?

[chusauli]

Hi Phil,

I have that book! Michael Staples' White Crane Gung fu book! A blast from the past!

That White Crane book is Tibetan White Crane, a close system to Hop Ga and Lama systems, not the Fujian White Crane system that WCK hails from. A simple youtube search and people can see a mega difference in the two White Crane systems.

Many thanks for the pic!

Best regards,

[sanjuro_ronin]

...
not the Fujian White Crane system that WCK hails from.



My God Robert !!
What have you done !!
:D

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil,

I have that book! Michael Staples' White Crane Gung fu book! A blast from the past!

That White Crane book is Tibetan White Crane, a close system to Hop Ga and Lama systems, not the Fujian White Crane system that WCK hails from. A simple youtube search and people can see a mega difference in the two White Crane systems.

Many thanks for the pic!

Best regards,
YW,
Yup there is a difference. When I was in Hung Mun we used to train on Canal
St. on the same side of the street where Bok Lei Tat used to be. There was a White Crane school below us. They used to leave their door open and I would look in at their training on the way upstairs. Do you know what version of White Crane that school taught?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . That White Crane book is Tibetan White Crane, a close system to Hop Ga and Lama systems, not the Fujian White Crane system that WCK hails from. A simple youtube search and people can see a mega difference in the two White Crane systems.
There is a Sifu near us in NJ named John Lee who is a close friend of Cheung Sifu. He makes swords and Do. He's from Wing Chun city in Fujian. He does Fujian White Crane.

[TenTigers]

YW,
Yup there is a difference. When I was in Hung Mun we used to train on Canal
St. on the same side of the street where Bok Lei Tat used to be. There was a White Crane school below us. They used to leave their door open and I would look in at their training on the way upstairs. Do you know what version of White Crane that school taught?

That would be Fai Chan's school, BAK Hok P'ai-Tibetan White Crane

[Phil Redmond]

That would be Fai Chan's school, BAK Hok P'ai-Tibetan White Crane
Thanks, this is one of the good aspects of this forum. Some of us are hear to share. ;)

[bakxierboxer]

YW,
Yup there is a difference. When I was in Hung Mun we used to train on Canal
St. on the same side of the street where Bok Lei Tat used to be. There was a White Crane school below us. They used to leave their door open and I would look in at their training on the way upstairs. Do you know what version of White Crane that school taught?

On Canal?
The school on the second floor was Chan Hok Fu's.
I never really looked at it to see/remember if there was a 3rd floor.......

[bakxierboxer]

That would be Fai Chan's school, BAK Hok P'ai-Tibetan White Crane

Okay, okay..... my info is "dated"....... :eek:

[chusauli]

Hi Phil!

I think you mean Hung Ching - Chinese Youth Free masons on Canal Street...not Hung Mun!

Was Norman Chin the instructor there then? I know Lum Sang was there teaching when he came back from Taiwan. They taught Lion Dance and Village Hung Gar, and later Jook Lum. Mark Foon may have taught there if memory serves me correct.

Yes, that building atop of the old Bok Lei Tat on Canal Street was the site of the Shr Jung Tai Chi group of Cheng Man Ching and on the 3rd floor was the Chan Hak Fu Tibetan White Crane school, usually taught by his son, Chan Fai (Warren Chan).

Certainly brings back old memories of old NY Chinatown! Even now, I am nostalgic walking that route when I visit NYC, and then its off to Dai Wong for the best Char Siu in Chinatown!

A stroll down memory lane...

Thanks!

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil!

I think you mean Hung Ching - Chinese Youth Free masons on Canal Street...not Hung Mun!

Was Norman Chin the instructor there then? I know Lum Sang was there teaching when he came back from Taiwan. They taught Lion Dance and Village Hung Gar, and later Jook Lum. Mark Foon may have taught there if memory serves me correct.

Yes, that building atop of the old Bok Lei Tat on Canal Street was the site of the Shr Jung Tai Chi group of Cheng Man Ching and on the 3rd floor was the Chan Hak Fu Tibetan White Crane school, usually taught by his son, Chan Fai (Warren Chan).

Certainly brings back old memories of old NY Chinatown! Even now, I am nostalgic walking that route when I visit NYC, and then its off to Dai Wong for the best Char Siu in Chinatown!

A stroll down memory lane...

Thanks!
You are right. It was the Hung Ching training hall. That's where I learned Mo Si. Lam Sang did teach there. I wasn't there when Mark Foon taught. I also used to see Lam Sang at the lodge on Mott St. You have to come back to the city for a visit. I'm starting a class at Bok Lei Tat on Mulberry. We could shoot the breeze and have some dim sum.

[TenTigers]

BLT moved to Mullberry, John, Lisa, and their Mom, (who I called "Ah-Sahm" and she used to call me 'Saw-Jai")no longer run it. (I used to have a crush on Lisa!):o I remember the one on Canal, with the huge billboard of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris from "Return of the Dragon." Ah-Di, who ran the bookstore downstairs ,used to train with you, Chu-Sifu, if I'm not mistaken?
Dai Wong, Chan Hak-Fu's school(I stand corrected-Ah-Fai was the son) and the Hung-Ching gym are still there.
-and Dai-Wong still has the best char-siew in Chinatown!

who sez, "You can't go home again!";)

[Phil Redmond]

BLT moved to Mullberry, John, Lisa, and their Mom, (who I called "Ah-Sahm" and she used to call me 'Saw-Jai")no longer run it. (I used to have a crush on Lisa!):o I remember the one on Canal, with the huge billboard of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris from "Return of the Dragon." Ah-Di, who ran the bookstore downstairs ,used to train with you, Chu-Sifu, if I'm not mistaken?
Dai Wong, Chan Hak-Fu's school(I stand corrected-Ah-Fai was the son) and the Hung-Ching gym are still there.
-and Dai-Wong still has the best char-siew in Chinatown!

who sez, "You can't go home again!";)
That BL Chuck sign was the meeting place for many back in the day. Becky was once the owner right? Now Johnathan runs the store. I was teaching there with Chris Serras but that went out the window. I got a call from BLT last week wanting to know if I wanted to start a class of my own. I'm planning on Sat. afternoons to start. Maybe the Sat. after election day. We can continue our conversation if you'd like when I come to Chinatown.

[TenTigers]

That'd be great. I go in every Saturday for Cantonese class.
We can have yum-cha!
pm me and we can exchange phone numbers.

[chusauli]

BLT moved to Mullberry, John, Lisa, and their Mom, (who I called "Ah-Sahm" and she used to call me 'Saw-Jai")no longer run it. (I used to have a crush on Lisa!):o I remember the one on Canal, with the huge billboard of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris from "Return of the Dragon." Ah-Di, who ran the bookstore downstairs ,used to train with you, Chu-Sifu, if I'm not mistaken?
Dai Wong, Chan Hak-Fu's school(I stand corrected-Ah-Fai was the son) and the Hung-Ching gym are still there.
-and Dai-Wong still has the best char-siew in Chinatown!

who sez, "You can't go home again!";)

LOL! Yes, the good ole days at BLT! Yes, Ah Di (Anant Tinaphongs) was my student there, now he's back in his native Thailand (He's Thai of Chinese descent). Lisa was hot at that time, but I haven't seen her lately. Saw Jai (Silly Boy) is not the most flatteringof nicknames. :)

Yes, I was there last March - to the new store on Mulberry. I had my Saam Bao Faan at Dai Wong, and saw Hung Ching and Bak Hok still going strong there on Canal Street!

Phil, next time I come to NYC, I'll drop by! Might be as early as December. I might be here in Los Angeles for the last 20 years, but I am still a NYC Chinatown boy!

[TenTigers]

Saw Jai (Silly Boy) is not the most flattering of nicknames. :)

yeah, I know. (I thought it meant crazy.-you're just being polite!;)) Sifu Tsang used to call me Faan Tung, (as a joke....um, I think) when I would forget part of a form.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . Phil, next time I come to NYC, I'll drop by! Might be as early as December. I might be here in Los Angeles for the last 20 years, but I am still a NYC Chinatown boy!
Cool, I start at BLT Nov. 8th. Hope to see you in December.

[Phil Redmond]

That'd be great. I go in every Saturday for Cantonese class.
We can have yum-cha!
pm me and we can exchange phone numbers.
Where is the Cantonese class? Since I was in Detroit I'm losing my tones. There were more Fukien people there than Cantonese. In fact it seems that the Fujianese own most of the Chinese restaurant there and in NJ.

[TenTigers]

Saturdays
At IS 131 100 Hester street
12:15-1:30 ESL with Tony (PLENTY of room...get your parents to come)
1:30-2:30 Toisan with David
1:30-2:30 Cantonese 103 with Kam (began October 4th)
2:45-4:00 Intermediate Cantonese with Hung
2:30-3:45 Cantonese 101 with Tony (new cycle began October 4th)

At Silk Road Cafe 30 Mott street
1:00-2:00 Cantonese 102 with Kit (a.k.a Kim) on the 1st and 3rd Saturdays of the month
*Kit's next Cantonese 102 class will be October 18th

Mondays at IS 131 100 Hester street (NO CLASS OCTOBER13) Happy Columbus Day!!!!!!!
6:00-7:00 Chinese menu Reading/Writing with Tony
7:00-8:30 Intermediate Cantonese with Hung

Wednesdays at IS 131 100 Hester street
6:00-7:00 Cantonese 101 with Tony (new cycle began October 1st)
7:00-8:00 Cantonese 102 with Mia

[chusauli]

Hey man, sign me up for the Toisan class! LOL!

[iwingchun]

Look this video about snake and crane http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98-snake-and-crane-&Itemid=54

[LoneTiger108]

Look this video about snake and crane http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98-snake-and-crane-&Itemid=54

Forget Jackie Chan!

Check these guys out...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=upDsl97DnsU

It's not Wing Chun. But is it? Where are we?

Regardless. This clip is superb imo. Big up to PS :D