thanks canada!!!

[uki]

the future never looked brighter!!! http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=57228

don't worry, i won't return fire until fired upon... :)

[WinterPalm]

I sincerely hope this is fake. I seriously doubt many Canadians would like this.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's fake.

[uki]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's fake.yeah and once the earth was pretty sure to have been flat...

[SanHeChuan]

yeah and once the earth was pretty sure to have been flat...

that is a misconception, Myth of the Flat Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_mythology)

[David Jamieson]

It's not fake, it's true.

There are very close bonds between our two nations.
The integration of our armed forces has been ongoing since the 50's and our battle group training is all designed around meshing with larger American units.

Infrastructure wise, Canada and the US are probably the tightest 2 countries on the planet and for sure we share the longest unprotected border in the world.

[SimonM]

And, that being said not all of us are too happy about it.

But then I didn't vote for that tool Harper, his actions do not represent me or my interests.

This represents just another tie to a dying behemoth that Canada should be working to disentangle from.

[David Jamieson]

Harper has little if anything to do with these machinations.

This was started by William Lyon McKenzie King and the deal was sealed by Lester B. Pearson and the finishing touches by Deifenbaker. It was a deal that ensured that Canada would not have to spend itself to death on military expenditures and instead it came under the rules of UN peacekeeping forces and as a NATO member, we were not required to have a full spectrum armed forces.

Everyone after Deifenbaker is merely signing off on plans that stem from the end of WW2.

Most, if not the greater majority of both countries have no idea about the ties that bind our countries. That's why you read so many magnificently stupid things about us two on the internet.

If nations were people, Canada and the USA would be blood brothers and England would be our parents with France being the Uncle we always liked, but he drank and smoked too much. lol

[SimonM]

I am painfully aware of the "ties that bind us". And I dislike it. I dislike the united states. I have not particularly enjoyed the time I spent there. Although I know many Americans who are good people I am distrustful of American mass culture and wary of the influence the united states holds.

[D-FENS]

I am painfully aware of the "ties that bind us". And I dislike it. I dislike the united states. I have not particularly enjoyed the time I spent there.

What is it about the U.S. that you dislike? Just out of curiosity...

[David Jamieson]

I can understand people disliking the cultural and political systems of a given country. But in reality, there isn't a whole lot of cultural difference between our two nations.

we all watch the same hollywood movies, have the same lifestyles more or less and live in highly similar circumstances as far as infrastructure goes.

as for people, well, people are people where ever you go and there are a great deal of disparate cultural idioms available in the USA and Canada.

Heck I live in Toronto which is comprised of some 65% recent immigrants! It is the petri dish of multiculturalism in the world!

It's not a melting pot like in the States where everyone is American first, then the heritage has some sort of play, whereas here, it is opposite. The heritage comes first, then the affiliation to Canada. That, I don't care much for, I would prefer that Canadians were Canadian first.

Even I used to do it about my Scottish heritage and I've never even set foot in Scotland. Which is probably a seat of racism/nationalism and misplaced loyalties in a great many peoples of the so called "new world".

anyways, America is a large country with a lot of different cultures within it. Canada, has 3 major cities and a few moderately sized cities and many small towns, but not huge gaps overall culturally due to our smaller population.

all in all, if you were knocked out in a small town in canada and transported to a similar one in america, you wouldn't notice much difference if any at all when you woke up. :)

[uki]

all in all, if you were knocked out in a small town in canada and transported to a similar one in america, you wouldn't notice much difference if any at all when you woke up. :)i dunno, but something tells me the people are more obese here... just shooting from the hip though.:D

[Becca]

I am painfully aware of the "ties that bind us". And I dislike it. I dislike the united states. I have not particularly enjoyed the time I spent there. Although I know many Americans who are good people I am distrustful of American mass culture and wary of the influence the united states holds. Influence is given, not forced. We don't ask anyone to go along with our pop culter, and don't perticularly care if you like it or not. We do. It's ours. Don't like non-Americans following our pop culture? Go rag on them.:rolleyes:

[SimonM]

I didn't say that american pop culture inevitably failed to entertain. I just don't trust it that much. The united states has a very specific agenda in the world and I'm not onboard with manifest destiny... so I look at the cultural exports of the USA as being suspect.

[Lucas]

thats because the government created death metal to create enraged super killers to infest the rest of the world with distortion filled vocals and violent slam dancing.

[Becca]

I didn't say that american pop culture inevitably failed to entertain. I just don't trust it that much. The united states has a very specific agenda in the world and I'm not onboard with manifest destiny... so I look at the cultural exports of the USA as being suspect.I have to agree to a certain extent. Our banking crisis would have stayed ours if everyone else hadn't jumped on bord the uniquely American idea of buying high risk futures. Not that there aren't other nations with hair-brained investment tools and ideas, but that one was definantly ours. I guess we'll see if nationalizing banks actually sorts sh!t out. I can see the potential to do good things, but the potential for abuses is also there.

[SimonM]

thats because the government created death metal to create enraged super killers to infest the rest of the world with distortion filled vocals and violent slam dancing.

Silly Lucas, everybody knows Scandanavia is responsible for death metal...

It's to condition their viking berzerkers.

[Lucas]

Silly Lucas, everybody knows Scandanavia is responsible for death metal...

It's to condition their viking berzerkers.

hehe, i suppose you might be on to something there.

[Ray Pina]

Its population is growing sick.

youth are exposed to thousands of murders on TV before they are 18. Yet, the culture is full of week men who neither grasp the realities nor consequences of violence because at the same time they've been sheltered.

The women are no longer feminine. The idea of being liberated mixed with joining the work force has made them more aggressive, because this is the trait that America rewards. Aggressive work habits, aggressive, actions and speech.

So now the family unit is out of balance.

Throw in tremendous consumerism, commercialism, insecurity.... yup. America is not what it used to be. Not for some time.

Thank God the rest of the world is going to $hit too and has its head up its a$$, so it doesn't seem so bad.

[David Jamieson]

it's always darkest before the dawn.

[uki]

it's always darkest before the dawn.have you ever noticed that it gets the coldest right about then too.

[Hebrew Hammer]

How about a group hug? Just between us modern western democracies...all this doom and gloom is giving me gas.

The Cannucks have given us Pam Anderson....

[TenTigers]

jue faegoht

[uki]

all this doom and gloom is giving me gas.it's almost an ironic statement...

[bakxierboxer]

How about a group hug? Just between us modern western democracies...all this doom and gloom is giving me gas.

The Cannucks have given us Pam Anderson....

Let's not forget Kristin Kreuk and Laura Vandervoort.

[David Jamieson]

Or Mike Myers? Jim Carry? Martin Short? the Late John Candy? Lorne Michaels? ...wait, this list will be too long.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't see a problem with it.

[Becca]

Its population is growing sick.

youth are exposed to thousands of murders on TV before they are 18. Yet, the culture is full of week men who neither grasp the realities nor consequences of violence because at the same time they've been sheltered.

The women are no longer feminine. The idea of being liberated mixed with joining the work force has made them more aggressive, because this is the trait that America rewards. Aggressive work habits, aggressive, actions and speech.

So now the family unit is out of balance.

Throw in tremendous consumerism, commercialism, insecurity.... yup. America is not what it used to be. Not for some time.

Thank God the rest of the world is going to $hit too and has its head up its a$$, so it doesn't seem so bad.Interesting... So you advocate a stagnent society? Why don't you head on over to the middle east? That region is full of stagnant societies that haven't made any advances in 500 to 600 years.

[WinterPalm]

Influence is given, not forced. We don't ask anyone to go along with our pop culter, and don't perticularly care if you like it or not. We do. It's ours. Don't like non-Americans following our pop culture? Go rag on them.:rolleyes:

The first part is dead wrong. The US has used all sorts of means including economic sanctions to get corporate culture (Pepsi, Tobacco, cinema) into regions where it didn't exist before.
The empire doesn't just use military means to alter the global culture landscape. The sad thing is that many people have bought into it.:( With the few exceptions, American culture, much like Canadian, in terms of media, is rubbish.

[Becca]

I've yet to see U.S. sanctions set up spacifically to force U.S. consumerism into closed markets. I have seen where the lifting of sancions put in place for other reasons have ushered in a flood of consumerism, but never has it been done to create the flood. It is also usually a two way flood, so to speek. The U.S. tends to be heavily influenced by our tradeing partners as well. The U.S. culture most people seem to detest isn't a purely American thing any more, and hasn't been since the end of WWII.

[SimonM]

Are you suggesting that the religious fundamentalism on the upswell over the last decade in the USA is a syncretic responce to the involvement of the USA with countries like Saudi Arabia - where religious fundamentalism is common?

[Becca]

Yes, actually. Seeing others willing to kill us for our religious beliefs because thier religious beliefs tell them they need to has, indeed, rekindled may fudementalist groups. Given time and space, Americans tend to take the middle road and assume that everyone else is also on the middle road too. 9/11 forced many to rethink this belief. And the typical American knee jerk reaction is "If you are going to attack me for being christian, I'm going to be the best **** christian out there!"

[SimonM]

See I find any sort of religious fundamentalism as a dangerous thing. The 9/11 excuse just doesn't hold water for believing that you have a duty to bring about the rapture.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, actually. Seeing others willing to kill us for our religious beliefs because thier religious beliefs tell them they need to has, indeed, rekindled may fudementalist groups. Given time and space, Americans tend to take the middle road and assume that everyone else is also on the middle road too. 9/11 forced many to rethink this belief. And the typical American knee jerk reaction is "If you are going to attack me for being christian, I'm going to be the best **** christian out there!"

Who tried to kill "you" because of your religious beliefs?
9/11 had nothing to do with religion, don't fall into that convenient excuse.

[SimonM]

Truth is that Al Quaeda did not target the USA for being Christian.

They targeted USA for being imperialist.

This doesn't make what they do right... but it is why some of us have trouble buying that it's a valid reason to run into the arms of fundamentalism.

[Lucas]

well, the USA isnt christian anyways. a lot of it is, but there are a lot of us as well that are not.

[MasterKiller]

Truth is that Al Quaeda did not target the USA for being Christian.

They targeted USA for being imperialist.

This doesn't make what they do right... but it is why some of us have trouble buying that it's a valid reason to run into the arms of fundamentalism.

Uh...no. They targeted the USA because of our support for Israel.

[lkfmdc]

They targeted us for supporting Israel

They also targeted us for being Christion and not "obeying the word of G'd"

They also targeted us for having troops in Saudi Arabia, their holy land

Like any fundamentalist, they are convinced they are right because they own the true words of G'd and that anything is acceptable because they are fighting those who dare disobey the word of G'd

All fundamentalists are teh same, it isn't the religion, it's the variation

[SimonM]

All fundamentalists are teh same, it isn't the religion, it's the variation

Truth. :D

[Becca]

See I find any sort of religious fundamentalism as a dangerous thing. The 9/11 excuse just doesn't hold water for believing that you have a duty to bring about the rapture.Who said it had to wold water to get a group of people to follw it, though...... I imagine it would make perfect sence if your were a religious nut.

[Becca]

Who tried to kill "you" because of your religious beliefs?
9/11 had nothing to do with religion, don't fall into that convenient excuse.
Since you seem to have missed the very obvoius point.... "us" is the U.S. "We" as a society took that as a very personal hit, just as we took Pearl Harber as a personal hit. And that is enough of an excuse for those inclined to look for an excuse. I am not a bible thumper, but like every other human being, I have a tendancy to look for excuses. Much like you'd rather just blame and mis-trust Amrica for pretty much everything.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since you seem to have missed the very obvoius point.... "us" is the U.S. "We" as a society took that as a very personal hit, just as we took Pearl Harber as a personal hit. And that is enough of an excuse for those inclined to look for an excuse. I am not a bible thumper, but like every other human being, I have a tendancy to look for excuses. Much like you'd rather just blame and mis-trust Amrica for pretty much everything.:rolleyes:

I guess you missed the "" around the "you"...
And my question too it seems.
I will try again, who tried to "Kill the US" because of their religion?
By the way, I think you may have mistaken me for someone who is anti-US.

[bakxierboxer]

Or Mike Myers? Jim Carry? Martin Short? the Late John Candy? Lorne Michaels? ...wait, this list will be too long.

It's already too danged long!
WTF are you doing listing dudes?

[uki]

WTF are you doing listing dudes?that is a creepy thought...

[David Jamieson]

you boys H0M0Phobes or something?
Get with the times you sissies.

[uki]

Get with the times you sissies.resorting to name calling... how professional.:p

i am up with the times and just because everyone else seems to be leaping for joy off the bridge, i choose not to follow...

[Becca]

I guess you missed the "" around the "you"...
And my question too it seems.
I will try again, who tried to "Kill the US" because of their religion?
By the way, I think you may have mistaken me for someone who is anti-US.I answered your question. It was not the answer you were phishing for. You asked who tried to "kill me." I pointed out that I was speeking rhetoricly about why there has been a revival in religious fundamentalism in the U.S.

As to why 9/11 happened, if the attack was only because America is imperialistic, then why does Al Quida also attack powerless christians in the middle east? Israel is not the the slightest bit imerialistic, and while they are not christian they are also ont muslim. They have to be so alert to attack, they are proactive. The Trade Center was targeted because it was high profile, had a large mix of people inside, including muslims who chose to work with "infedels", and would make a better statement to the world. The fact that our money as "in god we trust" on it put us on the list of Infedels To Be Destroyed. The fact that we are a high profile nation put us at the top.

[lkfmdc]

They targeted us for supporting Israel

They also targeted us for being Christion and not "obeying the word of G'd"

They also targeted us for having troops in Saudi Arabia, their holy land

Like any fundamentalist, they are convinced they are right because they own the true words of G'd and that anything is acceptable because they are fighting those who dare disobey the word of G'd

All fundamentalists are teh same, it isn't the religion, it's the variation

[SimonM]

IIsrael is not the the slightest bit imerialistic, .

WHAT?!?!?!??!

West Bank;
Gaza Strip;
Golan Heights;
The abject subjugation of the Palestinians...

Israel is NOT innocent.
Nor is Al Quaeda or Hamas...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets us first remember that TRUE Muslims view Christians and Jews as their brothers, regardless of what extremists may use as an EXCUSE.
Second, lets remember the difference between the reasons behind Islamic terroists and the excuses they make.
If we don't this problem will never go away.
Its the reason it hasn't gone away yet.


They targeted us for supporting Israel


Correct, old news too as you know.


They also targeted us for being Christion and not "obeying the word of G'd"

That's only because you are the great Satan !
LOL !!


They also targeted us for having troops in Saudi Arabia, their holy land

Correct.


Like any fundamentalist, they are convinced they are right because they own the true words of G'd and that anything is acceptable because they are fighting those who dare disobey the word of G'd

All fundamentalists are teh same, it isn't the religion, it's the variation

Correct and all fundamentalist use religion as an excuse to push their true agenda, be it Imperialistic gains, personal "hatred" ( as is the case with Osama), even governmental forgein policies ( As was the case with Roberts saying the US shoudl assasinate Chaves, an elected head of state).

[David Jamieson]

They targeted us for supporting Israel

They also targeted us for being Christion and not "obeying the word of G'd"

They also targeted us for having troops in Saudi Arabia, their holy land

Like any fundamentalist, they are convinced they are right because they own the true words of G'd and that anything is acceptable because they are fighting those who dare disobey the word of G'd

All fundamentalists are teh same, it isn't the religion, it's the variation

I think your point #3 is accurate and I am not so sure about the rest.

I would ask what would america do with a standing army of a foreign nation on it's soil, say not far from washington?

Also, there are plenty of so called fundamentalist thinkers in the west here who hold to exactly the same principles and ideals, but just on the topsy turvy side of the coin.

Why do we launch an all out offensive on a backwater place that can't actually send an army at us, take over their country, take their natural resources and build our pipelines through thier territories? Why do we do that?

We are doing it for a couple of reasons.

1. Afghansitan is a lawless wasteland and has been for almost a half a century, if we don't get in and take control, we wind up with taliban doing the same, so, lets get in there.

2. For iraq, that the worlds 3rd or 5th largest oil reserves. For America it makes economic sense to destroy it's government and infrastructure and steal the rest. It took a lot of years to orchestrate the result that we have now and it was done across a few presidencies. The set up being played and dealt by teh neo-cons since as far back as the Nixon era when Rumsfeld was first starting out as was Cheney.

3. War was not declared after the bombing of the wtc the first time.

4.war was not declared when the embassy was bombed in africa.

5.war was not declared when the uss cole was attacked

6.war was not declared when american soldiers were dragged through the streets of mogadishu.

7. war was not declared when hezbollah was launching rpgs and rockets into israel.

The entire premise and storyline is severely flawed and cannot be justified under any banner except for imperialism and expansionism.
The only question is do we in the west ave the fortitude and will to carry on with our aggressions towards these other countries, conquer them and take the spoils?

I don't know if that sits well with such a society as ours. It's a bit too roman perhaps.

It's hard to soft sell necessary actions based on the desires of a nation.

Killing must be done at times and for people who have grown up and lived their entire lives in a sheltered and insulated manner, well, they have difficulty relating to the necessity of killing, conquering and making war as an aspect of the human condition.

we have spoiled ourselves by sparing the spartan demeanour we need to keep such a huge economy and wasteful take it for granted society of consumer slaves running. lol

anyway, something to mull over...

[lkfmdc]

I think your point #3 is accurate and I am not so sure about the rest.



well, YOU may not be so sure about the rest, but most informed foreign policy experts ARE!

Again, you are dealing with people who think they represent the ultimate truth and have G'd on their side. Don't expect reason to play into it

[David Jamieson]

There has to be reason.

Let's face it, Bin Laden is a highly educated person who was recruited and trained by the CIA and formed the mujahadeen in afghanistan with the blessing and support of the US in yet one more proxy war against the russians.

he's a boogey man that gets pulled out and shown around like a puppet to scare the kids.

Canada supports Israel as well, but we don't have people bombing us. Pundits on cnn are not necessarily foreign policy experts either.

there is a lot that has been written by plenty of foreign policy experts that supports my viewpoint.

I really do think that Bin Ladens original beef had to do with the stationing of a foreign army so close to mecca. The rest of the stuff came afterwards.

It's interesting to see what's going on in Saudi Arabia right now. I wonder how much of that news mainstream america is getting. I know you must be hearing some of it... yes?

[lkfmdc]

Let's face it, Bin Laden is a highly educated person who was recruited and trained by the CIA and formed the mujahadeen in afghanistan with the blessing and support of the US in yet one more proxy war against the russians.



Wow, you really aren't informed very much on the facts are you? :confused::eek:

Bin Laden was a "johnny come lately" to the war against Russia. He showed up very late in the conflict and his most prominent contribution was money because he was/is rich. He was not trained by the CIA nor had much relations with them

Was he highly educated? Yes. He was originally very "westernized" as was much of his family. Then he CONVERTED. He became a fundamentalist. That's the whole idea of convertion to fundamentalism, it is a change in the way you think

Cat Stephens was a dope smoking music star who slept with 2 women at a time, then he converted to extreme Islam and now he wants some guy's head cut off because he wrote a book about the prophet.

IE when you convert to a fundamentalist position, logic and reason go out the door




Canada supports Israel as well, but we don't have people bombing us.



You might want to read the news more. Canadians have been kidnapped and executed. Canadians have been targets overseas. American targets are of course "high profile" but if you think you could walk through an extremist part of a middle eastern nation just because you are Canadian you are in for a bad time

[Hebrew Hammer]

West Bank;
Gaza Strip;
Golan Heights;
The abject subjugation of the Palestinians...


The spoils of victory my friend...Israel did not set out to aquire these areas via Imperialism, they were seized as a direct result of armed conflict initiated by their neighbors.

[SimonM]

Sorry but they were acts of expansionism that should not have been allowed. The only one that REALLY can be counted as protectivist expansion is Golan Heights and that only ever happened BECAUSE Israel had captured the other two palestinian territories.

The fact is that Israel is a big part of the problem in the middle east.

They aren't the whole problem.

Islamic fundamentalism and christian colonial intervention have also been insturmental in screwing up the region.

But anyone who portrays Israel as an innocent victim is a liar. Plain and simple.

[David Jamieson]

sorry but they were acts of expansionism that should not have been allowed. The only one that really can be counted as protectivist expansion is golan heights and that only ever happened because israel had captured the other two palestinian territories.

The fact is that israel is a big part of the problem in the middle east.

They aren't the whole problem.

Islamic fundamentalism and christian colonial intervention have also been insturmental in screwing up the region.

But anyone who portrays israel as an innocent victim is a liar. Plain and simple.

qft
123456789

[SimonM]

Whatever. It's true. Israel is an equal share in that clusterfvck.

[David Jamieson]

Other nations not directly responsible for the middle eastern soil are a huge contributing factor to the strife and trouble in the Middle east in general.

the fact that there is economic and political infighting between the G7 nations doesn't help at all either.

we have France , Germany and Russia and China cutting deals over here and we have the US, Britain and Canada cutting deals over here and when the crap hits the fan, everyone beats on the guys who are the weakest. Other developed nations aren't presenting quite so many problems.

It's very poor form, but typical of todays world leaders. TO me, it looks like more proxy war between russia and UK/US. If you look at how oil is distributed and by whom in europe, the picture gets a little clearer.

ps, if you don't think it's about energy (oil and gas) and control of it, then you shouldn't even enter the argument as you are wholly unequipped. :-)

[sanjuro_ronin]

All are to blame for the mess in the ME, there is no country that is blameless for that craptascular mess.

[David Jamieson]

All are to blame for the mess in the ME, there is no country that is blameless for that craptascular mess.

I dunno, there's a lot of countries that aren't involved at all.

or do you mean the players mentioned?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dunno, there's a lot of countries that aren't involved at all.

or do you mean the players mentioned?

LOL, yes, I don't think Fiji is to blame :D

[SimonM]

It's very poor form, but typical of todays world leaders. TO me, it looks like more proxy war between russia and UK/US. If you look at how oil is distributed and by whom in europe, the picture gets a little clearer.



That element isn't absent. I said christian when referencing colonialism because in the colonial powers (us, uk, russia, france, germany, etc) christianity is the dominant religion... and religion has played such a large role in the middle east.

[Becca]

WHAT?!?!?!??!

West Bank;
Gaza Strip;
Golan Heights;
The abject subjugation of the Palestinians...

Israel is NOT innocent.
Nor is Al Quaeda or Hamas...Didn't say they were innocent, said they weren't imerialistic. The Palestinians aren't innocent, either. they are 2 factions living in the same region, who both can claim historical ownership of that land, and can't seem to live there side by side in peace.

[SimonM]

Territorial expansionism is, IMO imperialistic, even if undertaken on a small-scale. And Israel has been, historically territorially expansionistic.

[lkfmdc]

Learn some history and you'll discover that well over 80% of what was "palestine" is what is now Jordon and Syria, ie the Israels didn't steal their land, their fellow arabs did! In fact, it serves Jordon and Syria's interests to direct Palestinian anger at Israel rather than at them so they capitalize on mass under education and propogandize the issue

Furthermore, Israle is a spec in the Arab world and was even more smaller and insignificant before the expansion. You would have thought that allowing the Jews to have a few acres of land in their historical home wouldn't have been such a huge imposition but Egypt, Syria and Jordon had to try and drive them off the face of the planet. If they hadn't started the wars they wouldn't have lost the land, it is that simple really

[Becca]

Territorial expansionism is, IMO imperialistic, even if undertaken on a small-scale. And Israel has been, historically territorially expansionistic.How many thousands of years of being pushed around do they have to put up with before it's ok for them to play as nasty as thier neibors do? We, the WWII Allies, made Isreal as a salve because we allowed the Holicost to happen. We shoved one people over, making them homeless, to make room for another homeless people. Both have claim, one has powerfull allies and the other the suport of the region. There is no answer to this power struggle but tollerance, and that isn't the human way.

Taking the West bank may look to you like expansionism. But to me it looks like a people who have just gotten sick of all the BS and took controll of some land to use as a buffer.

[lkfmdc]

We shoved one people over, making them homeless, to make room for another homeless people. Both have claim,



read above, most of the Palestinian homeland is Jordon and Syria! Not Israel!

[Becca]

read above, most of the Palestinian homeland is Jordon and Syria! Not Israel!
Historacly, yes. But in 1947, no. In 1947, they had half of the land they'd barely been able to hang onto taken away and given to a people their ansestors had driven off and murdered for thousands of years. GIVEN, not won.

[SimonM]

How many thousands of years of being pushed around do they have to put up with before it's ok for them to play as nasty as thier neibors do?

It's never alright to say "others oppressed us so now we will become oppressors. NEVER."



We, the WWII Allies, made Isreal as a salve because we allowed the Holicost to happen.

So where is the Romani homeland?
How about we partition a section of the USA off just for gays...

The holocaust was bad.

BUT

1) TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKE A RIGHT
2) More than just jewish people were oppressed by it. And yet now you get accused of anti-semitism if you oppose Israel expanding beyond it's originally proscribed boundaries but most people won't even blink an eye if you call Romani "Jypsies".

[uki]

but most people won't even blink an eye if you call Romani "Jypsies".romanian gypsies... i lived in bistrita and cluj-napoca for about 5-6months, the common consensus in romania is that they desire another vlad the impaler because he killed the gypsies... i must say as a people they are something else, yet they have a better exchange rate than the local romanian banks, which were charging me 5 bucks for every 20 dollar travellers check i cashed, the gypsies on the otherhand paid the market price, cash. it's all about mutual respect, to me the gypsies are just a people who go about things abit different than the rest of the population... but don't p!ss them off.:D

[SimonM]

Romani doesn't just refer to "gypsies" in Romania Uki.... It's the name that ethnicity has for themselves. And they are one of the biggest targets for petty racism.

[lkfmdc]

The holocaust was bad.



wow, understatement :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Really fvcking bad with a heaping side-helping of awful... is that better?

Because my point is that it's not right to cut the state of Israel slack just because some psychos in Germany went and tried to genocide people of Hebrew ethnicity.

I mean... maybe you could make that argument... if Israel were located IN Germany and if they had expanded into other German areas which they claimed as part of a reparations package.

But even that doesn't address inequal treatment of other victims of nazi genocide and eugenics campaigns.

Or other victims of modern genocides.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Holocaust was a horrible, horrible event in Human history, one that had Zero to do with the Palestinians.

[uki]

The Holocaust was a horrible, horrible event in Human history, one that had Zero to do with the Palestinians.that depends on if you take into account sumerian history... i'll not say anymore of it because people can do their own homework if they choose to.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

that depends on if you take into account sumerian history... i'll not say anymore of it because people can do their own homework if they choose to.:)

Are you seriously suggestion that there is a connection between the palestinans and the Nazis in some way??

[SimonM]

The Holocaust was a horrible, horrible event in Human history, one that had Zero to do with the Palestinians.

That is PRECISELY my point. You have RNC'd the correct.

And, SR, for everything you need to know about Uki just look at my sig line.

[uki]

Are you seriously suggestion that there is a connection between the palestinans and the Nazis in some way??okay... i recant, the least i should do is to tickle your imagination by one of your very own... http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/10/26/01917.html

enjoy your journey...

[SimonM]

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!

You don't acutally believe this unmitigated nonsense do you Uki?

Here is the wikipedia entry for the... ahem... brain trust who is behind this rediculous crap. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Salla)

And here we have name drop number two in Uki's thirty two flavors of crazy article. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)

And nothing says "respectable journalism" like:

BLATANT GRAMMAR ERRORS


John Lash documents in Metahistory.org that the Gnostics has correspondingly sought to warn humanity about "demons from the sky" that acted as an opportunistic parasite on the human consciousness.

and

COME-ONS FOR CASH INSIDE THE BODY OF THE TEXT


The Canadian can only continue to publish investigative articles in such areas, with the donations from members of the public in Canada, the U.S., and abroad. Consider making a donation of $50.00, $75.00, $100.00, $200.00 or more. Donors are eligible to receive our first collector's print edition in mail.

[sanjuro_ronin]

okay... i recant, the least i should do is to tickle your imagination by one of your very own... http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/10/26/01917.html

enjoy your journey...

This is the beauty of freedom of expression and such, we get to know who the "unconventional" ones are...

[uki]

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!

You don't acutally believe this unmitigated nonsense do you Uki?why not? you believe your own brand of BS...



Here is the wikipedia entry for the... ahem... brain trust who is behind this rediculous crap. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Salla)and you trust in wikipedia as a source for your information... please...:rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Actually, yes, I do tend to trust Wikipedia as a source for information. A few years back there were a couple of double-blind tests of the level of veracity of information in Wikipedia compared to Encyclopedia Britannica and it was found to be not significantly different in level of veracity.

Are you suggesting that the information I posted about Michael Salla was factually incorrect? If so, please, outline the inaccuracy.

[uki]

This is the beauty of freedom of expression and such, we get to know who the "unconventional" ones are...you almost seem to imply that unconventionality is not in ones bests interests?





Actually, yes, I do tend to trust Wikipedia as a source for information. A few years back there were a couple of double-blind tests of the level of veracity of information in Wikipedia compared to Encyclopedia Britannica and it was found to be not significantly different in level of veracity.well good for you.



Are you suggesting that the information I posted about Michael Salla was factually incorrect? If so, please, outline the inaccuracy.actually i just sought out a canadian link to the topic i was instigating(for purposes of my own)... i don't even know who michael salla is...:p

[SimonM]

A proper researcher should understand who his sources are.

[Becca]

It's never alright to say "others oppressed us so now we will become oppressors. NEVER."

Palistinians aren't being oppressed, they are loosing a 60 year long "war" they started.


So where is the Romani homeland?
How about we partition a section of the USA off just for gays...

The holocaust was bad.

BUT

1) TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKE A RIGHT
2) More than just jewish people were oppressed by it. And yet now you get accused of anti-semitism if you oppose Israel expanding beyond it's originally proscribed boundaries but most people won't even blink an eye if you call Romani "Jypsies".
Won't disagree about any of that.

BUT

The personal oppinion of one who has never had an entire world personally judge his actions has little to do with what actually happens in the world. Two wrongs don't make a right, but hind sight is 20/20. And people are still making goofy choices based on irrational guilt to this day.

[uki]

And people are still making goofy choices based on irrational guilt to this day.goofy choices which leads to war, death, and destruction... are you sure goofy is an accurate adjective enhancing the concept you are attempting to relay here?

[Becca]

Are you seriously suggestion that there is a connection between the palestinans and the Nazis in some way??The country of palistine cir. 1947 was split in half so the Jews could have thier own home land. This was done because people pretended that the Jews who died in the holocast wouldn't have if they'd had thier own country rather than having to live in Poland, Germany, ect.... This is, of course B.S. The holocast victoms would not have died if someone would have steped in and stopped the Nazi bastid when it became obvoius he was a pscycotic killer... And the powers to be at the time knew it.

And that is the only connection that I know of between Palistinians ans the Nazi party.

[Becca]

goofy choices which leads to war, death, and destruction... are you sure goofy is an accurate adjective enhancing the concept you are attempting to relay here?
Works as well as any other. Some ideas that lead to mass murder are very well thought out. Some are really retarded. Well thought out being Dubwya's plan to get the American People to suport his war. Really retarded is the consept that Numerology can predict the future. Guilt trip-base desisions that aren't real well thought out definantly fall under the heading of goofy.

[uki]

Some ideas that lead to mass murder are very well thought out.nearly so well that people tend to call them conspiracy theories.


Some are really retarded.just take a look at the people who hatched them.


Well thought out being Dubwya's plan to get the American People to suport his war.do you think it really mattered if the people supported it or not? does it matter now? wake up already... you just said yourself some plans are well thought out.


Really retarded is the consept that Numerology can predict the future.more reassuring evidence of your mental naivete'... numerology doesn't predict absolutes, just possibilities; basic math 101, yet one mustn't forget to factor in the differential equations.


Guilt trip-base desisions that aren't real well thought out definantly fall under the heading of goofy.along with your classic american train of thought...

[Becca]

Telling me to wake up is rather retarded; I stated my opinion and it seems to be one you are, rather reluctently, agreeing with. Perhaps the problem isn't that I am not "awake". Perhaps the problem is that you are deluded enough to think you are the only one thinking these things. Though I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory. I bet Dubya honestly believed it was a good idea. The fact that good ideas don't usually need to be disguised should have pointed out to him that maybe it wasn't, but most people make mistakes like that. Most just don't do so and cause the loss of thousands of lives.

[uki]

Telling me to wake up is rather retarded.okay... i am not telling you to, i am commanding you to... is that better?



I stated my opinion and it seems to be one you are, rather reluctently, agreeing with. Perhaps the problem isn't that I am not "awake". Perhaps the problem is that you are deluded enough to think you are the only one thinking these things. Though I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory. I bet Dubya honestly believed it was a good idea. The fact that good ideas don't usually need to be disguised should have pointed out to him that maybe it wasn't, but most people make mistakes like that. Most just don't do so and cause the loss of thousands of lives.wow.

[SimonM]

Becca: saying that the Palestininans started it (or even that the "war" started only 60 years ago) is not fully accurate.

60 years ago reaction to the holocaust shifted popular support away from the palestinians and towards the formation of two states on the land.

Quite frankly the colonial interference in former ottoman territories (brits in this case) cause much of the problem by leaving the palestinian state in limbo. The 1947 agreement was basically disregarded by both the arab league states and by Israel and Israel came out on top.

These days most parties, except the USA, that matter in the UN want a return to the 1947 agreement boundaries with the establishment of an official palestinian state in those areas not seen by the 1947 agreement as part of Israel.

But the state of Israel isn't having that.

Sorry but no matter how you cut it Israel is not an underdog-victim. Israel is a state that was expansionistic and refuses to return it's occupied territories... and that is no more of a tenable position than one that denies the state-hood of Israel as established by the 1947 plan.

[Becca]

more reassuring evidence of your mental naivete'... numerology doesn't predict absolutes, just possibilities; basic math 101, yet one mustn't forget to factor in the differential equations.
along with your classic american train of thought...
And this little bit of @sshatery gets its own post....:rolleyes:

Numerology 101:


Today, numerology is often associated with the occult, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts. The term can also be used for those who, in the view of some observers, place excess faith in numerical patterns, even if those people don't practice traditional numerology. For example, in his 1997 book Numerology: Or What Pythagoras Wrought, mathematician Underwood Dudley uses the term to discuss practitioners of the Elliott wave principle of stock market analysis.



[edit] "Numerology" in science
Scientific theories are sometimes labeled "numerology" if their primary inspiration appears to be mathematical rather than scientific. This colloquial use of the term is quite common within the scientific community and it is mostly used to dismiss a theory as questionable science.

[Becca]

Sorry but no matter how you cut it Israel is not an underdog-victim. Israel is a state that was expansionistic and refuses to return it's occupied territories... and that is no more of a tenable position than one that denies the state-hood of Israel as established by the 1947 plan.Agreed; never said they were. That they aren't under dogs still doesn't make them imperialistic, or expansionistic as you are now calling it. They weren't trying to expand thier infulence or territory. They chased thier friggin enemies right back to Ciro and "kept" nothing but the west bank, and then only becuase it makes a fantastic buffer zone. In content, the end result was expanded infuence, but in context, it wasn't; they really don't control a d@mn thing in the west back and they know it.

[uki]

And this little bit of @sshatery gets its own post....

Numerology 101:i must say i feel as confused as you are after reading this post.:)

[SimonM]

Than they should just let it go.

Officially state recognition of the palestinian state as defined by the 1947 boundaries as a sovereign nation pursuant to an equivalent recognition by palestine. Pull out ALL the settlers in the west bank.
And accept that Jerusalem is equally important to three religions and Israel can't keep it just for themselves. Put the **** place under direct UN mandate and call it a day.

[Becca]

i must say i feel as confused as you are after reading this post.:)I'm not confused. I choose to look at the whole picture and not the part that best supports my trolling habit.;)

[Becca]

Than they should just let it go.

Officially state recognition of the palestinian state as defined by the 1947 boundaries as a sovereign nation pursuant to an equivalent recognition by palestine. Pull out ALL the settlers in the west bank.
And accept that Jerusalem is equally important to three religions and Israel can't keep it just for themselves. Put the **** place under direct UN mandate and call it a day.I agree. But then, I'm not living there. Nor are you. And lets face it; they've been getting away with it long enough that ye old "posession is 9/10 of the law" argument can be used.

[uki]

I'm not confused.of course it would seem that way...

I choose to look at the whole picture and not the part that best supports my trolling habit.perhaps you need to get your vision checked.:p

[bakxierboxer]

you boys H0M0Phobes or something?

More like heteronormative.
As for your suggestion of setting aside an area of the US for them, it might be easier to
"annex" a portion of Canada for that.
Of course, the prior to the UN and allies breaking it up, the "Mandate of Palestine" kinda sounds like it would have been "ideal" for that purpose.

[bakxierboxer]

I would ask what would america do with a standing army of a foreign nation on it's soil, say not far from washington?

That's the reason for our 2nd Amendment.

......


Why do we launch an all out offensive on a backwater place that can't actually send an army at us, take over their country, take their natural resources and build our pipelines through thier territories? Why do we do that?

Not even close to an "all out offensive".
The modus operandi we "objected" to was manifest in the terrorist attacks of 911.
We have not "taken" any resources from them... simply sought to
secure their availability to the "free market".
We do it because it "makes sense" of one sort or another.


We are doing it for a couple of reasons.....

Not to make too fine a point about it, but your points 1-7 are what's normally called "showing restraint".



The entire premise and storyline is severely flawed and cannot be justified under any banner except for imperialism and expansionism.

Which is conspicuously absent, since we have not annexed any of those territories.
(at least "not lately")



The only question is do we in the west ave the fortitude and will to carry on with our aggressions towards these other countries, conquer them and take the spoils?

It would make a helluva lot more sense if we did do that.



Killing must be done at times and for people who have grown up and lived their entire lives in a sheltered and insulated manner, well, they have difficulty relating to the necessity of killing, conquering and making war as an aspect of the human condition.

it's a bit more like "War Lite".... much better "perceptions" from the "madd(en)ing crowds".

[bakxierboxer]

well, YOU may not be so sure about the rest, but most informed foreign policy experts ARE!

Again, you are dealing with people who think they represent the ultimate truth and have G'd on their side. Don't expect reason to play into it

It's beginning to look like he "feels better" "playing for the other side" in some number of things.

[bakxierboxer]

Sorry but they were acts of expansionism that should not have been allowed. The only one that REALLY can be counted as protectivist expansion is Golan Heights and that only ever happened BECAUSE Israel had captured the other two palestinian territories.

What?
Ah, sorry, but that looks like yet another example of your much-vaunted Canadian "edumakashun", since the Golan Heights were heavily fortified Syrian territory much used by the various terrorist factions for launching attacks against Israel.



But anyone who portrays Israel as an innocent victim is a liar. Plain and simple.

I'd call them "pro-active".

[bakxierboxer]

Whatever. It's true. Israel is an equal share in that clusterfvck.

If you really think that, then, since they're vastly outnumbered in any number of ways, are you saying that each individual Israeli is "worth more" than their opponents?

[bakxierboxer]

Are you seriously suggestion that there is a connection between the palestinans and the Nazis in some way??

One starting point would be: http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/storobin_nazis.html

[David Jamieson]

dude...

your disparate quote threads don't present an opinion. They are all over the map and don't offer much in the way of continuity.

just saying.

[uki]

dude...

your disparate quote threads don't present an opinion. They are all over the map and don't offer much in the way of continuity.

just saying.what exactly do your posts accomplish? just butting in dude.

[David Jamieson]

wasn't talking to you.

you really need to let go of that selfish sense of importance you have.

[uki]

wasn't talking to you.i realized this, which is why i stated i was butting in.


you really need to let go of that selfish sense of importance you have.i didn't realize it was considered selfish by believing yourself to be important... so i take it you are one of the unimportant people... eh? usually it is important people that get things done by instigating a change...:p

[David Jamieson]

?

seriously, lay off the drugs mmmkay?
It's an internet forum, ergo it is entirely irrelevant to anything other than selling magazines.
do you subscribe or buy from the newsstand.
I do the latter.

Anything beyond that is piffle and nonsense, name calling and useless debate that ends nowhere.

get with the program. You're in the wrong place if you want a soapbox where people will act on what you say.

[uki]

seriously, lay off the drugs mmmkay?another online guidance counselor.


It's an internet forum, ergo it is entirely irrelevant to anything other than selling magazines.
do you subscribe or buy from the newsstand.
I do the latter.i am a two year subscriber, it was a gift, til then i was a newstand buyer... subscribe some, buy some...


Anything beyond that is piffle and nonsense, name calling and useless debate that ends nowhere.i do recall the use of the word sissies.


get with the program.i rewrote the program.


You're in the wrong place if you want a soapbox where people will act on what you say.i maintain the absolute belief that one will always be in the right place at the right time...

[bakxierboxer]

dude...

your disparate quote threads don't present an opinion. They are all over the map and don't offer much in the way of continuity.

"disparate" is good!
This is especially true when it comes to alleviating the tiresome leftist spewings from such as yourself.


just saying.

Apparently "just to hear yourself" "say" "something"?

[uki]

Apparently "just to hear yourself" "say" "something"?hey you don't have 10,000+ posts for not just saying anything...

[Becca]

hey you don't have 10,000+ posts for not just saying anything...Nope, you get that many by being a long time, and respected, forum member. The flip side is knowing a mouthy troll when they thier post count is low despite frequent posting wars. ;)

[SimonM]

I agree. But then, I'm not living there. Nor are you. And lets face it; they've been getting away with it long enough that ye old "posession is 9/10 of the law" argument can be used.

I'd love to see a home invader who kicked his next door neighbour out of his suburban house and moved his kids in say that to a judge: "but posession is 9/10 of the law..."

[D-FENS]

I'd love to see a home invader who kicked his next door neighbour out of his suburban house and moved his kids in say that to a judge: "but posession is 9/10 of the law..."


Come to California. The Mexicans do it all the time.

[SimonM]

LOL

And how many times has a judge in the USA ruled in favor of squatters who forcefully evicted the previous tennants?

[D-FENS]

Well, if forceful eviction includes being demographically driven out by competitive breeding, widespread gang violence, depressed wages and cramped, overflooded social services then yes, judges have ruled in favor of it on a few different occasions. 187 comes to mind.

And then there was this little snafu a couple of years ago...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/MYSA082005_1A_border_justice_226d6b73_html35464.ht ml

[SimonM]

Not what I meant at all.

[uki]

Nope, you get that many by being a long time, and respected, forum member. aaaaaahhhhh....


The flip side is knowing a mouthy troll when they thier post count is low despite frequent posting wars. changing the world... one post at a time. :)


;)an old proverb state: never trust someone with a winking eye.
even though it's just a smiley, the intention to use it is manifested from the desire to wink in person... :D

[Becca]

SO YOU THINK THE EMOTICON HAS A THING FOR YOU?????:eek:

[David Jamieson]

"disparate" is good!
This is especially true when it comes to alleviating the tiresome leftist spewings from such as yourself.



Apparently "just to hear yourself" "say" "something"?

um..so what is it that you are trying to say then?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this is additional to your previous post which also made not much sense.

tiresome leftist spewings? wtf? lol
whatever dude.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One starting point would be: http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/storobin_nazis.html

Ok, that's kind of taking the reverse time line view, but I guess that there is some AFTER THE FACT "palestinian-nazisim", or whatever you wanna call it.
My point was that the inhabitants of Palestine that were removed from their homes to make way for the Jewish settlers had nothing to do with the holocaust and, probably, deserved a tad more consideration.

[uki]

SO YOU THINK THE EMOTICON HAS A THING FOR YOU?????don't flatter yourself... you're not articulate enough and vegetarian is the indian word for lousy hunter.:p

[SimonM]

And Uki would know, his maternal great-grandmother was (1/64)x10^-99th pure blooded cherokee, that's why he doesn't celebrate thanksgiving. :rolleyes:

The first-nations people I know have no sayings with regards to vegetarianism. Neither do the indians I know.

[Becca]

don't flatter yourself... you're not articulate enough and vegetarian is the indian word for lousy hunter.:pSo now you are saying i'm an emoticon? And a vegitarian one at that?!?!?

First off, I can be a bit of a troll, but I'm not a friggin' smiley face..... And I'm not a vegitartian, my avatar is. And G!d help us if the hampsters of the world ever figure out how good red meat is.......

[SimonM]

That's almost quote worthy... :D

[uki]

So now you are saying i'm an emoticon?it's futile to attempt a play on words...


And a vegitarian one at that?!?!?vegetarian...


First off, I can be a bit of a troll, but I'm not a friggin' smiley face.....actually you were a winking face when i wrote this last post.


And I'm not a vegitartian, my avatar is.so you admit to being deceitful, which was the point of the whole winking comment to begin with... cheers.


And G!d help us if the hampsters of the world ever figure out how good red meat is.......perhaps you should script an ocasr winning horror flick...:p

[bakxierboxer]

um..so what is it that you are trying to say then?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this is additional to your previous post which also made not much sense.

"Freedom of expression" works both ways.
Don't expect a "free ride" when you choose to express something others may find "objectionable"....
or you'll end up sounding like a "Democrat"....
HEY! you're probably fârther left than one of those "Democrats".



tiresome leftist spewings? wtf? lol

Pretty much what they look like to me.

[bakxierboxer]

Ok, that's kind of taking the reverse time line view, but I guess that there is some AFTER THE FACT "palestinian-nazisim", or whatever you wanna call it.

But it does show that "Palestinians" were (to some degree) "in cahoots" with some upper-echelon Nazis.



My point was that the inhabitants of Palestine that were removed from their homes to make way for the Jewish settlers had nothing to do with the holocaust and, probably, deserved a tad more consideration.

Take it to the "International Community"/UN/whatever that "made it happen".
Hey!
You ever think that maybe they were just a bunch of hómóphobes who misunderstood the whole deal with that old "Palestinian Mandate"?

[David Jamieson]

"Freedom of expression" works both ways.
Don't expect a "free ride" when you choose to express something others may find "objectionable"....
or you'll end up sounding like a "Democrat"....
HEY! you're probably fârther left than one of those "Democrats".




Pretty much what they look like to me.

fair enough. can you indicate which of my postings in this thread is a leftist spewing?

And is the world so full of absolutes for you? really?

I don't think a black and white world of left and right exists except for absolutists and I had thought there weren't many of those left, due to a free public education that was available to everyone.

But you are entitled to you view. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

But it does show that "Palestinians" were (to some degree) "in cahoots" with some upper-echelon Nazis.




Take it to the "International Community"/UN/whatever that "made it happen".
Hey!
You ever think that maybe they were just a bunch of hómóphobes who misunderstood the whole deal with that old "Palestinian Mandate"?

I think that, from knowing how some of those old ****s used to think back then, it was a question of "not in MY backyard", so they put them in the "promised land" and washed their hands of the whole thing.

[bakxierboxer]

fair enough. can you indicate which of my postings in this thread is a leftist spewing?

:confused:
Nothing in this particular thread....
I think I may have "lumped you in" with SimonM when you two were agreeing about something.



And is the world so full of absolutes for you? really?

Nope.
There's even some overlap when issues get towards "the center".



I don't think a black and white world of left and right exists except for absolutists....

"black and white" are mostly irrelevant when you're face to face with an absolutist form of "government".



I had thought there weren't many of those left

Absolutist forms of government still exist.
Most of them toss around lefty-sounding names, but are essentially absolutist.
Many of them started in military take-overs.
Newer ones tend to have elected "lefty-lite" administrations.
The major problem with lefty-lite forms of government is their tendency to slide slowly in the direction of ever-more government activities... which usually seem to need ever-more "controls" to make them "just right". One level of control leads to more levels of control and pretty soon you find yourself sliding down into what slowly becomes more and more absolutist.



due to a free public education that was available to everyone.

What's "free"?
Government-run "education" is anything but free.
Governments tend to be spectacularly inefficient in providing anything at all.



But you are entitled to you view. :)

As are we all.

[bakxierboxer]

I think that, from knowing how some of those old ****s used to think back then, it was a question of "not in MY backyard", so they put them in the "promised land" and washed their hands of the whole thing.

NIMBYs?
I think they're a sub-group of the DNC..... :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

NIMBYs?
I think they're a sub-group of the DNC..... :rolleyes:

I actually wrote old Fatrs (spelled badly to get by censor :p ).
You facist !
:D

[bakxierboxer]

I actually wrote old Fatrs (spelled badly to get by censor :p ).

You did that this time.... but not the last.



You facist !
:D


Zat supposed to be some kinda insult aimed at someone who honors their teacher?
... or were you talking about a fascist?
They run about lugging their handy-dandy fascisti (bundle of sticks)(think they're into kali or know the Dog Bros?) so they whip a couple of sticks on ya any time they please.

Oh... you can use â, ä, à, å to write fârt...........
(alt-key + numeric 131/132/133/134)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You did that this time.... but not the last.





Zat supposed to be some kinda insult aimed at someone who honors their teacher?
... or were you talking about a fascist?
They run about lugging their handy-dandy fascisti (bundle of sticks)(think they're into kali or know the Dog Bros?) so they whip a couple of sticks on ya any time they please.

:p
That said, I h ave never been one to care for absolutes, any absolutes, the world tends to be too many shades of gray.
Besides, only a Sith believes in absolutes !
:D

[SimonM]

Absolutist forms of government still exist.
Most of them toss around lefty-sounding names, but are essentially absolutist.
Many of them started in military take-overs.
Newer ones tend to have elected "lefty-lite" administrations.
The major problem with lefty-lite forms of government is their tendency to slide slowly in the direction of ever-more government activities... which usually seem to need ever-more "controls" to make them "just right". One level of control leads to more levels of control and pretty soon you find yourself sliding down into what slowly becomes more and more absolutist.


How did an unregulated free market work out of you...

Oh yeah...

Wall street crash.

Whoops!

Guess some control isn't such a bad thing sometimes after all.

Yet here you are preaching about how any government involvement in the public sphere leads inevitably down into totalitarianism.

let me make this nice and big for you so that maybe it will help your comprehension UNREGULATED FREE MARKET ECONOMIES DO NOT WORK!!!!!!!

[bakxierboxer]

:p
That said, I h ave never been one to care for absolutes, any absolutes...

That vodka is supposed to be rather good........



the world tends to be too many shades of gray.

PRETENDERS all!



Besides, only a Sith believes in absolutes !
:D

You said that as though you think it's an absolute statement?

[bakxierboxer]

How did an unregulated free market work out of you...

Oh yeah...

Wall street crash.

Whoops!

Guess some control isn't such a bad thing sometimes after all.

Yet here you are preaching about how any government involvement in the public sphere leads inevitably down into totalitarianism.

let me make this nice and big for you so that maybe it will help your comprehension UNREGULATED FREE MARKET ECONOMIES DO NOT WORK!!!!!!!


Sorry! (NOT!)
The facts behind this particular economic problem are directly traceable to the regulations called the "Community Reinvestment Act" of 1977, under feckless (and thoroughly fücked-up) Jimmuh Cahtuh.
"Over time" (the ensuing 20-30 years), "it turned out" that it wasn't "good enough" and this was cause for further fiddlings with the "regulations".... to make them even MORE dumb-assed than they were to start.

People/orgs taking advantage of it were "the usual suspects". (lefties all)
The provisions of the CRA not only made the subprime mortgages more or less "the law of the land" but also provided for "community organizations" to "review" the banking institutions. The threat of negative reviews gave those organizations a strong enough hold on the banks that they were frequently used to extort pay-offs.

Decent legislation would have prohibited loans of "that type"....
OTOH, prior to the passage of said legislation/regulation, the banks weren't issuing them!
(basically because it wasn't smart to issue them!)

For a bit of background, you might want to read the relatively even-handed article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

[David Jamieson]

You blame jimmy carter for the greed of the sub prime mortgage fiasco?

ridiculous.

[bakxierboxer]

You blame jimmy carter for the greed of the sub prime mortgage fiasco?

ridiculous.


Perhaps not "his idea", but he did sign it into law.
Additional "measures" to make it suck even more were enacted during the
"Clinton Administration".

[David Jamieson]

so you are blaming democrats...despite the fact that this occurred on a republican administration's watch after 8 years of republican policies and deregulation of the banking and credit financing and more generally the money markets, which George W brought into play with a republican dominated house and senate in his first term.

I believe I posted a link to the actual speech where Bush himself gives the go ahead that lead directly to the crisis that has occured and is occurring. YOu know, teh one that is seeing your RRSP's and 401 K's losing about 20% of their overall value or more depending on how risky you played.

really? You're gonna stick with that old "it's the dems fault" theme?

I'll post the speech again if you like. It's a direct speech with no embellishments.

[bakxierboxer]

so you are blaming democrats...

Sure, it's "their" legislation.
It also pretty much impossible to get rid of "stuff like that" once it's been passed into law.... so-called "vested interests".



I believe I posted a link to the actual speech where Bush himself gives the go ahead that lead directly to the crisis that has occured and is occurring.

Don't bother.
I'm pretty sure that if you did post it, I already ignored it.



really? You're gonna stick with that old "it's the dems fault" theme?

"If the shoe fits..."



I'll post the speech again if you like. It's a direct speech with no embellishments.

Yeah, likely as good as somebody's earlier reference to that Annenberg "source".

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I mentioned on the other thread, in regards to the economic crisis, there is enough blame to go around for all parties involved.
"everyone" thought it was win-win for them.
The financial companies that didn't think that property values would drop.
The people that would normally not have a chance to buy a new home.
The government that saw it as something to simulate the very lagging economy.
The builders and resellers of homes.
No one wanted to see the downside and now they are all paying for it in one way or another and they have dragged "everyone else" into it too.

[David Jamieson]

You ignored it?

Ok, well then you and I should just end the discussion.
If you are not going to deal iwth the facts and deliberately obfuscate the issue that we are discussing, then you are just wasting time.

please check the facts. YOu are entirely wrong. The deregulation happened on Bushes watch as did the sub prime mortgage fiasco and former chair of the fed Alan Greenspan just spoke about it the other day.

shouting louder doesn't make one correct.

[SimonM]

Even ****ing greenspan admitted that this issue was one of the failure of the banks. This is not the legacy of Jimmy Carter. Idiots may bury their head in the sand and go "lalalalalalalalalalalalala There is no inherent failures to unregulated free markets lalalalalalalallalalalalalalalalalalalala ronald reagan is my messiah" but that doesn't change the truth.

UNREGULATED FREE MARKETS DON'T WORK!!!!!!!

[SimonM]

The government that saw it as something to simulate the very lagging economy.



I know this is a typo and you meant stimulate... but it's such a perfect typo I just wanted to point it out... because in a way that's exactly what this deregulation allowed banks to do... SIMULATE an economy.... because reality left the park a long time ago.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know this is a typo and you meant stimulate... but it's such a perfect typo I just wanted to point it out... because in a way that's exactly what this deregulation allowed banks to do... SIMULATE an economy.... because reality left the park a long time ago.

LOL, typo indeed.
"Bubble" economies and "fake" economies are just part of doing business it seems, every so often we go through them, be it a real estate bubble or a technology bubble.
Manufacturing continues to be the "black sheep" that is ignored and always comes back to bite governments and economists.
Heck I remember reading a a few years ago that manufacturing was on the way out in N.America and that we would have to be a "service industry", that there was no way we could compete with the emerging markets and their cheaper labour rates, and in some ways, that was quite correct, of course a government infusion of 600 billion dollars in the manufacturing sector THEN would have averted the crap we are in now but that was never gonna happen.
Money to save white collar jobs, yes, blue collar?
Please !!

[bakxierboxer]

You ignored it?

Probably.



Ok, well then you and I should just end the discussion.

Good idea.
There are already too many Canadians/socialists mucking about in what you insist is a
US/free-market problem.



If you are not going to deal iwth the facts and deliberately obfuscate the issue that we are discussing, then you are just wasting time.

You may consider your sources as "facts", I do not.



please check the facts. YOu are entirely wrong. The deregulation happened on Bushes watch as did the sub prime mortgage fiasco and former chair of the fed Alan Greenspan just spoke about it the other day.

I've already posted a link to what appeared to be a "balanced" article.
Greenspan? He's already "out to pasture".



shouting louder doesn't make one correct.

The guy doing all the "shouting"/caps is another Canadian.

[Becca]

You may consider your sources as "facts", I do not...You know, I was going to stay out of this side topic, but... You are the second Republican I know of to call solid, non-biased proof fake in the las 24 hours. How is a word-for-word transcript not factual of what was said durring a speech????? Does it have to pass a second stage of validation known as "Doesn't disproove liberal bashing theories". You know, liberal bashing is as well know for being dead wrong as concervative bashing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Perhaps not "his idea", but he did sign it into law.
Additional "measures" to make it suck even more were enacted during the
"Clinton Administration".

Ok, but if the Carter Administration started it, there has been 8 years of Reagan, 4 of Bush, 8 of Clinton and another 8 of another Bush.
By my Socialist math :D, that is 20 years of republicans VS 8 of Democrats ( not counting Carters).

[bakxierboxer]

You know, I was going to stay out of this side topic, but... You are the second Republican I know of to call solid, non-biased proof fake in the las 24 hours.

WOW!
The SECOND!!???
Want to take a while to count up all the "liberals" doing that kind of thing?
It's a whole bunch more than 2.



How is a word-for-word transcript not factual of what was said durring a speech?????

I don't know what the reference was linked to.
Like I said, I probably ignored it since I've already gotten a pretty good handle on the stuff these guys try to pass off as their facts.
I have absolutely no problem with a balanced presentation, but folks mostly only put up stuff that serves their own viewpoints.



Does it have to pass a second stage of validation known as "Doesn't disproove liberal bashing theories".

Nah!
Just the "stink test".



You know, liberal bashing is as well know for being dead wrong as concervative bashing.

Not that I've seen.

[bakxierboxer]

Ok, but if the Carter Administration started it, there has been 8 years of Reagan, 4 of Bush, 8 of Clinton and another 8 of another Bush.
By my Socialist math :D, that is 20 years of republicans VS 8 of Democrats ( not counting Carters).

.... and you're going to "gloss over" those "vested interests"?

[sanjuro_ronin]

.... and you're going to "gloss over" those "vested interests"?

Well, if it was implemented in Carter's reign, was it used?
Was it used in Clinton's reign when you guys had a huge economic boom and 100's of billions of dollars in SURPLUS?
Even if it was, it wasn't removed during the 20 years of Republican administrations.

Hey, I am hardly a liberal or a socialist, but I also tend to follow the ol "buck stops here" view when it comes to running a country, business or family as it were.

If it happens on your shift, its your fault.

[Becca]

WOW!
The SECOND!!???I don't know what the reference was linked to.
Like I said, I probably ignored it since I've already gotten a pretty good handle on the stuff these guys try to pass off as their facts.
I have absolutely no problem with a balanced presentation, but folks mostly only put up stuff that serves their own viewpoints...Spoken like a true ostridge. "it might have been biased. I don't know... safer to ignore it...."

I posted a direct like to validated and varified proof that Obama's birth certificate had been made available and that was the exact same thing my republican freind said. LOL!!! this is why I don't usually discuse polotics with him. :p

[bakxierboxer]

Spoken like a true ostridge. "it might have been biased. I don't know... safer to ignore it...."

Heh!
Remember the latest definition of "insanity"?
Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.......



I posted a direct like to validated and varified proof that Obama's birth certificate had been made available and that was the exact same thing my republican freind said. LOL!!! this is why I don't usually discuse polotics with him. :p

I don't recall that link... in any case, his presence on the political scene is fairly ample proof that he was born.
The examples of the certificate that I've seen don't inspire an awful lot of confidence that he was born in the US, and there was an awful lot of moving about and changing of citizenship status that went on after that.

[bakxierboxer]

The "All American Boy" in person!

[Becca]

Heh!
Remember the latest definition of "insanity"?
Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.......




I don't recall that link... in any case, his presence on the political scene is fairly ample proof that he was born.
The examples of the certificate that I've seen don't inspire an awful lot of confidence that he was born in the US, and there was an awful lot of moving about and changing of citizenship status that went on after that.
You aren't the one I was sqabbling with yesterday, so you wouldn't have seen the link long enough to forget seeing it. :D

A u.s. citizen living outside the u.s, even for years, even as a child, is still a u.s. citizen. While the u.s. doesn't like duel citizenships, it isn't against the law and doesn't exclude one from being eligable to be POTUS. The sole suport of that argument is wether you belive the validation of Obama's birth certificate. And as I told my friend yesterday, Obama would not still be in the running if it had not been validated to the satisfaction of actual experts.

[Becca]

And here's the Republican grass roots movement:


Nothing says family like stealing Obama signs with the wife and kiddies at 11pm... (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/17810369/detail.html?treets=den&tid=2659772064813&tml=den_12pm&tmi=den_12pm_1_01000210272008&ts=H)

Nothing says "I'll stand behind you" like beating yourself up so you can claim you were mugged for your political affiliations.... (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/17792799/detail.html?treets=den&tid=2659772064813&tml=den_irr&tmi=den_irr_1_01000210272008&ts=H)

[David Jamieson]

there's republicans, then there's "lalalalalala I can't see, hear or speak the truth" republicans. lol

democrats have their own variety of this too. But in this thread, someone who says "i got a handle on..." and then refuses to do anything but ignore the facts is a waste of time talking to.

Not that they can't be swayed, but that they can't even put up a good argument "for" something and instead fall into shouting lies and nonsense because they are afraid of something.

I think this election is bringing to light a lot of problems that America still faces.

I mean, there's still a lot of Americans who's Dad's thought nothing much of lynchings and treating people as second class citizens if they were treated as citizens at all!

This is the real problem with the current issues at hand. NO one talks about the war, or money or how each candidate would deal with that and the dems waste time calling republicans off base and the republicans waste time in their denial of the failure of their party and it's president over the last 8 years in their desperate attempt at maintaining power they don't deserve at all.

[Becca]

NO one talks about the war, or money or how each candidate would deal with that and the dems waste time calling republicans off base and the republicans waste time in their denial of the failure of their party and it's president over the last 8 years in their desperate attempt at maintaining power they don't deserve at all.
hey! I've had several very good conversations covering exactly that. I've spoken to firm Democrats, firm Republicans, and idependants. I didn't base my opinion or my vote off of the mud slinging. I based it off of what the followers of each canidate felt and on how much they could verify. Both canidate are pretty much on the same page with only minor diferences in how they want to accomplish those goals. I was completely undescided untill McCain pick Palin as a running mate.

I'm sure she was a great Mayor, but she's been less than honest as a governor, and quite frankly scares me as a V.P. canidate. She's actually more of a bubble head than Quail was. We don't need a laughing stock for a V.P. Add to that McCain's age and past health? She could end up finishing a term for us, or at least covering the big office like Nixon had to cover for Ike back in the 50s. I realy, really don't want to see that happen.