crunching numbers.

[uki]

this morning at work i was pondering martial arts, this forum here, and basic strength training... what i concluded was that in 3 hours i pushed approximately 9 yards of concrete for a footer in a wheelbarrow; altogether their were 18 yards, but two of us equally shared the load. now 1 yard of concrete weighs 4000 lbs(2 tons) and averages out to being roughly 9 wheelbarrows a yard at approximately 440 lbs per wheelbarrow plus 70 or so for the wheelbarrow itself. all in all, each of us unloaded 36,000lbs(9 tons)... so that is 81 wheelbarrows at 500+ lbs in 3 hours; the average push is between 30-80 feet depending on the size of the job and how far the truck can get into the hole. so these are some of my daily thoughts on one aspect of my daily job-training regime... not to mention all the blocks we'll need to use. so... who else has some numbers to crunch? :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

this morning at work i was pondering martial arts, this forum here, and basic strength training... what i concluded was that in 3 hours i pushed approximately 9 yards of concrete for a footer in a wheelbarrow; altogether their were 18 yards, but two of us equally shared the load. now 1 yard of concrete weighs 4000 lbs(2 tons) and averages out to being roughly 9 wheelbarrows a yard at approximately 440 lbs per wheelbarrow plus 70 or so for the wheelbarrow itself. all in all, each of us unloaded 36,000lbs(9 tons)... so that is 81 wheelbarrows at 500+ lbs in 3 hours; the average push is between 30-80 feet depending on the size of the job and how far the truck can get into the hole. so these are some of my daily thoughts on one aspect of my daily job-training regime... not to mention all the blocks we'll need to use. so... who else has some numbers to crunch? :cool:

Your point?
You do realize that you are not lifting the weight of the wheelbarrow or the total weight of its contents, don't you?

[uki]

Your point?you seem to be a good judge of character... figure it out


You do realize that you are not lifting the weight of the wheelbarrow or the total weight of its contents, don't you?true... but i still push it from point A to point B, continuously until the job is done... i suppose this phenomenom might classify as repetition... are you pushing around 81, 500 lb wheelbarrows in 3 hours? a completely different type of workout nonetheless, yet i am quite sure you can see the obvious benefits of it. this is why i was thinking of this topic at work, just so i could see all the knucklehead responses... eh tough stuff?:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

you seem to be a good judge of character... figure it out
true... but i still push it from point A to point B, continuously until the job is done... i suppose this phenomenom might classify as repetition... are you pushing around 81, 500 lb wheelbarrows in 3 hours? a completely different type of workout nonetheless, yet i am quite sure you can see the obvious benefits of it. this is why i was thinking of this topic at work, just so i could see all the knucklehead responses... eh tough stuff?:p

Oh yes, indeed, manual labour is quite a workout, no doubt about it at all.
No intense, but the sheer volume is quite impressive, for a ball juggler :p

[uki]

Oh yes, indeed, manual labour is quite a workout, no doubt about it at all.i'm glad to see you are a reasonable man.

No intense,i must say you'll have quite a different opinion after one day of doing it... it is a conditioned trade...


but the sheer volume is quite impressive,you're telling me, i had the concrete driver call the owner of the concrete plant to get the tonnage for a yard.


for a ball juggler.who ever can juggle my balls, can play with my balls. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

i'm glad to see you are a reasonable man.
Well, I am not unreasonable.


i must say you'll have quite a different opinion after one day of doing it... it is a conditioned trade...

By the very definition of "intense", if you can do it for hours, it isn't intense:
100 meter run = intense
5000 meter run = less intense

And I have done quite a bit of manual labour in my time, though it usually involved steel and not concrete.

[uki]

Well, I am not unreasonable.that's reasonable enough.


By the very definition of "intense", if you can do it for hours, it isn't intense:
100 meter run = intense
5000 meter run = less intensei beg to differ... intensity is relative to the conditioning, so to speak...


And I have done quite a bit of manual labour in my time, though it usually involved steel and not concrete.completely different modes of physical exertions... i would like to get involved with steel, but 'til then, i'll continue to conquer earth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i beg to differ... intensity is relative to the conditioning, so to speak...

No, its not.
Some may want to define it that way, but going full out is going full out and pacing is pacing and intensity is DIRECTLY proportioned to HOW FULL out you go, not at what PACE you go.

[sanjuro_ronin]

completely different modes of physical exertions... i would like to get involved with steel, but 'til then, i'll continue to conquer earth.


True that, moving around steel beams and steel pipe by hand is very different than moving around concrete by wheel barrow.
Grinding with a 15lbs grinder all day is quite different than shoveling dirt.

[uki]

Grinding with a 15lbs grinder all day is quite different than shoveling dirt.i don't shovel dirt... i lay block, flagstone, and stone... excavators move dirt. blocks weigh in at 30-80lbs each, depending on size and type, quite different than holding 15lb grinders all day, yet we do use a demolition saw from time to time.

p.s. i mean't to crack a joke about the steel beams comment... so you're puerto rican eh? seen the onion movie yet?? hahahahaha!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

i don't shovel dirt... i lay block, flagstone, and stone... excavators move dirt. blocks weigh in at 30-80lbs each, depending on size and type, quite different than holding 15lb grinders all day, yet we do use a demolition saw from time to time.

Specificity.


p.s. i mean't to crack a joke about the steel beams comment... so you're puerto rican eh? seen the onion movie yet?? hahahahaha!!!!

Racist, be careful.
I am actually Portuguese-Canadian, born in Portugal, Canadian Citizen.

[SimonM]

I don't think Uki is actually racist SR... I think he's just a buffoon who is incapable of vetting what he types before he posts and who types whatever pops up to the top of his head regardless of the relative intelligence, relevance or appropriateness of the statement.

[uki]

I don't think Uki is actually racist SR...i must admit that it would be difficult to adhere to the principles of racism when one is a genetic mutt or heinz 57... so to speak.


I think he's just a buffoon who is incapable of vetting what he types before he posts and who types whatever pops up to the top of his head regardless of the relative intelligence, relevance or appropriateness of the statement.as i clearly do like to be adamant about in allegory... the pond is never prepared for the stone.


Specificity.each to his own.

Racist, be careful.i guess you didn't see the movie...


I am actually Portuguese-Canadian, born in Portugal, Canadian Citizen.must be nice to have burgundy passports...

[sanjuro_ronin]

i must admit that it would be difficult to adhere to the principles of racism when one is a genetic mutt or heinz 57... so to speak.
as i clearly do like to be adamant about in allegory... the pond is never prepared for the stone.

each to his own.
i guess you didn't see the movie...
must be nice to have burgundy passports...

If the Puerto Rican comment was from a movie, then I take back the racist part.
Perhaps you can be more clear in the future.
By the way, specificity is just that, to each his own, to each activity that is.

[uki]

If the Puerto Rican comment was from a movie, then I take back the racist part.yes i was from the onion movie: raw and uncut. there is a scene where they are describing the different races and how puerto ricans are reknowned for hanging from steel beams with one arm... lol. a funny movie that attacks everything and everyone.


Perhaps you can be more clear in the future.highly doubtful... as i am happy with the way i am doing things. :)


By the way, specificity is just that, to each his own, to each activity that is.i know. that's why i posted each to his own. :p

[bodhitree]

I've worked in concrete before, good tiring work.


Not as effective as Benching, Deading, and Squatting.

[uki]

I've worked in concrete before, good tiring work. perhaps you were just not phyiscally cut out for it since it doesn't seem to tire me out... perhaps your attitude towards the job was off; did you embrace the day for the dollar or the physical workout? remember: mind is the path.


Not as effective as Benching, Deading, and Squatting.not as effective for what? no offense, but a mason will have a heavier punch than most folks... physical lab or such as metalworking and masonry provides a well-balanced workout if one is in the proper mindset; for it works the entire body at once instead of dumbed down isolation methods that only increase ones boob, bicep, and buttock size to impress the unfortunate ladies that fall victim to this line of mentality...

the best pours are the crawlspaces where one has to push within the parameters of a lower liang yi stepping methods, without the fists of course... and then there is the pours where we wheel over wire, this is excellent chicken stepping practice while pushing a 500lb wheelbarrow around without tripping.

[sanjuro_ronin]

perhaps you were just not phyiscally cut out for it since it doesn't seem to tire me out... perhaps your attitude towards the job was off; did you embrace the day for the dollar or the physical workout? remember: mind is the path.
not as effective for what? no offense, but a mason will have a heavier punch than most folks... physical lab or such as metalworking and masonry provides a well-balanced workout if one is in the proper mindset; for it works the entire body at once instead of dumbed down isolation methods that only increase ones boob, bicep, and buttock size to impress the unfortunate ladies that fall victim to this line of mentality...

the best pours are the crawlspaces where one has to push within the parameters of a lower liang yi stepping methods, without the fists of course... and then there is the pours where we wheel over wire, this is excellent chicken stepping practice while pushing a 500lb wheelbarrow around without tripping.

Anyone that involves themselves in a heavy physicla activity will be stronger than "most folks".
What is your point?

[SimonM]

The point Uki is that

Being strong =/= knowing how to fight.

Knowing how to fight = being strong (Because a person who technically knows how to throw a punch but can't back it doesn't know how to fight)

But without training all a person is... is strong.

[uki]

The point Uki is that

Being strong =/= knowing how to fight.

Knowing how to fight = being strong (Because a person who technically knows how to throw a punch but can't back it doesn't know how to fight)

But without training all a person is... is strong.and you have the gall to ask if i finished school...:rolleyes:

[SimonM]

A question you rather tellingly never answered.

In cases such as that I default to the null hypothesis. (IE: that you did not)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can take any labourer that can haul serious weight all day and have him puking his lungs out on the heavy bag or have him be out punched by a few 130lbs girls I know, I know this because I have done it and seen it done.
I can take a world class power lifter and he won't make it through the day doing what many labours do.
I can also take the strongest labourer you can find and he won't even qualify in an amateur strength event.
And it all means ZERO.
Specificity rules.

[SimonM]

You speak truth.

[Lucas]

i learned to breakfall from skateboarding :p

is this of relevance? probably not.

[uki]

i learned to breakfall from skateboardingollie-onefooters are kicks...


is this of relevance? probably not.everything is relevant... imagine crunching the numbers to how many ollie kickflips you have done and what the energy ratio would be when viewed as a workout.

[Lucas]

well i can tell you that i went into kungfu with better balance than a lot of 'advanced' students had.

i can also run full speed and dive at concrete no problem.

i do think that the un expected crashes, and ubrupt dumps you take in skating for years does increase your reaction time to adjust for imbalances.

other than being thrown or tripped/sweeped, I havent fallen down in years, oh ive lost my balance, but ive always caught myself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well i can tell you that i went into kungfu with better balance than a lot of 'advanced' students had.

i can also run full speed and dive at concrete no problem.

i do think that the un expected crashes, and ubrupt dumps you take in skating for years does increase your reaction time to adjust for imbalances.

other than being thrown or tripped/sweeped, I havent fallen down in years, oh ive lost my balance, but ive always caught myself.

I bet you can fight on a skateboard better than I, I don't know how to ride one !

[Lucas]

lol, maybe. i stopped skating years ago.

but i would be down for a good ol skateboard jousting if your interested. ;)

[SimonM]

And I bet Ray Pina could rawk us all on a surf board based battle platform. But most fights don't happen in such scenarios.

[Lucas]

i cant tell you how many times ive gotten into raging battles on the back of my bike.

i just bust a wheelie and rub their faces off with the front tire. like in pet cemetery 2

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I bet Ray Pina could rawk us all on a surf board based battle platform. But most fights don't happen in such scenarios.

Well, in anti-shark grappling....

[Mr Punch]

perhaps you were just not phyiscally cut out for it since it doesn't seem to tire me out... perhaps your attitude towards the job was off; did you embrace the day for the dollar or the physical workout? remember: mind is the path.Some work tires you out, good attitude or no. But it's a good point you make. I've worked in forestry, landscaping and building patios and whatnot, and occasional work like cleaning industrial solvents out of a stainless steel chimney ( :( ) ... can't say embracing the dollar didn't come into it (there's not much to look forward to with industrial cleaning) but I've often ended up less tired which I put down to effiency of body movement, breathing techs, balance etc I've learnt in MA.


not as effective for what? no offense, but a mason will have a heavier punch than most folks... physical lab or such as metalworking and masonry provides a well-balanced workout if one is in the proper mindset; for it works the entire body at once instead of dumbed down isolation methods that only increase ones boob, bicep, and buttock size to impress the unfortunate ladies that fall victim to this line of mentality... Forestry has its pros and cons compared with weights... but overall it comes down to this: in forestry I couldn't choose exactly what I wanted to work on and how or how long, or whether I was solo or part of a team or with part mechanical help. In the gym, I can. My main regret with regards to this subject is that I'm not still working in physical labour knowing what I now know about good lifting technique and other aspects of training.

Your 'points' about dumbed down isolation methods are irrelevant. Bodhitree mentioned benching, deading and squatting (to which I'd probably add pull-ups and some kind of overhead press), which are compound movements, not isolated muscle movements at all. Squats and deads are certainly in themselves whole body exercises. All of the above mentioned have direct relevance to everyday functional strength and fighting relevance (with the possible exception of the bench).

Quite apart from which, I'm not sure on this, the training section of the KF forum where most of us seem to be married (or settled) and in our thirties, how many of us are really that concerned with impressing the ladies. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, back to the number crunching: on my current programme I'm moving 8-10 of your tons in an hour.

[Mr Punch]

Incidentally, there was a thread on the wing chun forum eons ago where people were talking about applying MA to everyday life and getting training out of everyday life... I mentioned things like walking through crowds, standing on 270% crowded subway trains in a rush-hour crush with no access to a strap to hold on to, negotiating a moving forest of eye-level umbrellas whilst watching your footing on a rainy day in Shibuya etc etc. As you said, with the right attitude anything can be training... doesn't have to be manual labour! :)

[uki]

we just finished a full foundation using 12 inch blocks. it was 13.5 courses high... total cubes of block were like 9 or so - 108 blocks in a cube... there were also 1 1/2 cubes of FHA's. 12 inchers weigh around 8o pounds each and the FHA's are about 110 or so... reflecting on the foundations of the work, we build up from the ground and cap off with FHA's - so at the end of a wall you are lifting and throwing up the last course of FHA's onto the scaffolding... anyhow... it's quite the workout especially when you begin crunching all the numbers one is forced to carry around all day; spreading block, stocking scaffolding, moving mud... oh and lets not forget the fact that we used 3 6ft lintels and 2 9ft lintels - a 9footer takes 4 masons to lift up onto scaffolding. :)

[Oso]

dude, you're confusing work and power

but, i hear you on doing actual 'work' for your work (day job as I put it)

I regularly move or help move hot tubs...thay can range up to 1100 pounds and we have to move them in any variety of ways from using work reduction tools (dollies) or often simply muscleing them around. I will dead, clean, jerk and overhead press up to the maximum of my ability (meaning, sometimes the hot tub doesn't move) multiple times a day. I also regularly work the eccentric portion of most of those lifts as it's not good to just let a tub drop. And, sometimes the tub may still have water in the lines so there can be dynamic loading.

so, sometimes it's amusing for me to go to CrossFit and see all the office people come for their daily workout...or hear about how CF trains you for life.

Don't get me wrong, CF has a lot to offer and I have gotten more capable at work due to the CF training. I flipped a 600# hot tub on it's side by myself last week...it's been one of my benchmarks :D

but, i think a lot of people training CF or other protocols would not last a day on a jobsite with most hardcore construction types without the training or conditioning time for that job. specificity as already stated.

[uki]

dude, you're confusing work and powerhow so??


but, i hear you on doing actual 'work' for your work (day job as I put it)it's quite amazing what can be learned when one applies a little conscious effort.


I regularly move or help move hot tubs...thay can range up to 1100 pounds and we have to move them in any variety of ways from using work reduction tools (dollies) or often simply muscleing them around. I will dead, clean, jerk and overhead press up to the maximum of my ability (meaning, sometimes the hot tub doesn't move) multiple times a day. I also regularly work the eccentric portion of most of those lifts as it's not good to just let a tub drop. And, sometimes the tub may still have water in the lines so there can be dynamic loading.alot of possibility for static postures and leverage structure.


so, sometimes it's amusing for me to go to CrossFit and see all the office people come for their daily workout...or hear about how CF trains you for life.i am not familiar with crossfit...


Don't get me wrong, CF has a lot to offer and I have gotten more capable at work due to the CF training. I flipped a 600# hot tub on it's side by myself last week...it's been one of my benchmarks.nice... i suppose one of mine is the ability to root and stop a wheelbarrow from flipping over when pushing it across uneven terrain - they weigh like 450lbs when filled with concrete and when they start to go, they go... sometimes the concrete driver is oblivious and he'll over load the wheelbarrow sending it onto its side, yet i look forward to these opportunities to put rooting power and structure to the test, not to mention overall body strength and the balanced distribution of it.


but, i think a lot of people training CF or other protocols would not last a day on a jobsite with most hardcore construction types without the training or conditioning time for that job. specificity as already stated.i hear ya... we tend to run thru a lot of laborers simply because they cannot bear the work load. masonry is by far one of the most aggressive jobs in general and like our company shirt logo reads, "GO HARD, OR GO HOME", it is no place for whiny little be'otches. :D

[Oso]

work, power and intensity all have very specific definitions. look them up and apply the definitions to your original post.

[Lee Chiang Po]

My two older brothers were masons. I worked as mud boy for several years. Hauling mud, bricks and blocks. I could toss a big block up 2 stories. I developed an amazing grip doing that, and both my brothers could rip you apart their hands were so strong. We all developed large muscles from this work. Working concrete is a fast and furious job as it will set up on you if you don't move quickly. So if you have to move a lot of it you have to do it as quickly as you possibly can. It is very intense work at this point, and you don't get to rest until the job is done.
Being very skilled at fighting is one thing, but being strong and skilled at fighting is another. All things equal otherwise, being stronger gives you the edge. Being stronger allows you to hit and kick harder, block more efectively, and move faster and smoother. There is just no denying this. And it is a fact that your line of work can very often give you a much stronger body then the average person.
However, even though I did develop a strong body in that short few years, I learned that there were vocations that required far less physical effort. Being a criminal offers you a good wage with less work, but it does have it's drawbacks. So working for criminals is the next best thing. You do have a bit more latitude. However again, you still need to have a line of work to show for your income. Printing was mine. Long hours, but not physically hard. Just takes some acquired skills.

[uki]

And it is a fact that your line of work can very often give you a much stronger body then the average person.which would undoubtedly give you an edge in the criminal world... i am sure your experience working in masonry made you a harder criminal than the rest of them. :D

[Mr Punch]

Just another musing to add to yours Uki...

physical labour is a great workout, sure. And one of the reasons it's so good is what you hit on with working your way over 'wire' (not quite sure what you're actually talking about there: I'm envisioning some kind of mesh to keep unstable earth together as you move loads across it, but if it turns out to be a tightrope of some kind - even more kudos to you! :eek: :D ): i.e. the irregularity of your action will work the muscles more than predictable motion for various reasons.

Buuut, with movements you can plan (such as a crossfit routine) where you still work assymetric movements or whatever, you have less of a chance of injury and less of a chance of developing one preferential side of your body.

I remember when I did patio laying and landscaping, I was always conscious of trying to work one side as much as another, but for example, when I was preventing a barrow tipping, if it was always the same part of the path and always tipped in the same direction, or if I always used my body naturally to my stronger side, it was not always great training, as one side of my body would sometimes end up strained and the other not as worked out at all.

Just musing. I'm sure you try and balance it out too.

[Oso]

he's probably talking about what I call 're-mesh' : a wire mesh of heavy guage constructed in 6" squares that is laid down between the gravel and the concrete on a pad...though, i thought mesh was a thing of the past with higher psi concretes now available.

it's a ***** to walk across because it often has a mind of it's own and will apparently grab you of it's own volition.

we still use it in pool building because it also acts as the electrical bond.

he could be talking about something completely different.

[uki]

he's probably talking about what I call 're-mesh' : a wire mesh of heavy guage constructed in 6" squares that is laid down between the gravel and the concrete on a pad...though, i thought mesh was a thing of the past with higher psi concretes now available.

it's a ***** to walk across because it often has a mind of it's own and will apparently grab you of it's own volition.

we still use it in pool building because it also acts as the electrical bond.

he could be talking about something completely different.you got it oso... we use the roll out kind so you have to re-bend it straight in order for it to sit on the floor somewhat smoothly... if it's not tied down it snags everything... we usually use fiber now, but sometimes we get some old redneck who wants wire instead of fibers.