Public vs, Private [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

sanjuro_ronin

10-30-2008, 11:04 AM

The recently locked thread of public and private versions of an art got me thinking. Is there a private version of striking an opponent? Or a public version of striking an opponent? Is there a public vs. a private way of submission? :)

Martial arts are either functional or not.

Private vs. Public versions is like teaching for money, but not really teaching...

I have heard about public and private versions for many a time, but I think these are just people's way of saying, "I'm special, I've got the secrets."

People love a good mystery.

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

This is a subject close to my heart for I have had this debate with people many times.
There are many different ways to view it but I narrow it down to what is best for a system, being public or private?
Better in the sense that it makes it/keeps it, functional.
The answer:
It depends.
IF a system is closed door AND continues to be tested VS other systems, than its fine.
If it is private and only testes VS itself, NO, not a chance.

sanjuro_ronin

10-30-2008, 11:20 AM

Now, there is something about keeping stuff private, look at BJJ and when it came on the scene and how well it did because no one had seen it before, well...almost no one.
Even guys like the Dog Brothers keep some stuff "private and closed door".
Its natural to keep certain things private.
I have a few "tricks of the trade" that I don't teach and may never teach, I am sure we all do.
Remember, not to long ago WC and SPM, for example, we closed door systems.

donbdc

10-30-2008, 11:31 AM

You know I never heard of this stuff until I started studying Chinese Martial Arts.
Their were no secret wrestling moves, no secret boxing moves, no secret western fencing steps and nothing I ran across in Korean Arts!
My first Kung Fu instructor was Robert Smith, and he said so many intersting arts were taken to the grave, some from the boxer rebellion and some just not told.
Since thenI have studied some philipino and Malaysian arts and the seem to keep things in villages and families as well.
Just curious, is it a cultural phenomina.
It's a shame a lot of people get hurt w/ this stuff.
Cheers
Don :confused:

couch

10-30-2008, 11:45 AM

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

TMA is dead. Oops...except here on the forums. :rolleyes:

MMA (which is MT + BJJ just in case of some dispute) is all the rage right now.

Most stuff is going to people's basements if it isn't there already. Most clubs have a handful of students while MMA and BJJ gyms can have hundreds of students. So the fact that someone is teaching "secret" stuff isn't going to help any.

As it was stated before, either fighting a certain way is functional or not. MMA, IMO debunked a lot of martial arts and, like boxing does, shows that higher percentage stuff works.

If stuff is secret and shrouded in mystery...it might help keep the rice bowl filled but it doesn't help TMA on the grand scale. He!!, it doesn't even help on a moral scale!

Was talking with a friend last night about TMA and if there will ever be a comeback. Perhaps...but it will depend on the 'effective' and 'pressure-tested' martial arts to keep pushing forward. Dunno. Interesting topic.

sanjuro_ronin

10-30-2008, 11:49 AM

TMA is dead. Oops...except here on the forums. :rolleyes:

MMA (which is MT + BJJ just in case of some dispute) is all the rage right now.

Most stuff is going to people's basements if it isn't there already. Most clubs have a handful of students while MMA and BJJ gyms can have hundreds of students. So the fact that someone is teaching "secret" stuff isn't going to help any.

As it was stated before, either fighting a certain way is functional or not. MMA, IMO debunked a lot of martial arts and, like boxing does, shows that higher percentage stuff works.

If stuff is secret and shrouded in mystery...it might help keep the rice bowl filled but it doesn't help TMA on the grand scale. He!!, it doesn't even help on a moral scale!

Was talking with a friend last night about TMA and if there will ever be a comeback. Perhaps...but it will depend on the 'effective' and 'pressure-tested' martial arts to keep pushing forward. Dunno. Interesting topic.

Well, TMA have never been for the masses, that's what combat sports are for.
TMA = Elitist MA
What most view as TMA are the Sport arts that keep alive certain traditions, like TKD, Judo, Karate and so forth and they will always have their place with the masses.
MMA may be the "flavour of the month" and rightly so, but it doesn't appeal to all.

Ultimatewingchun

10-30-2008, 01:09 PM

"But our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think."

***Here's what I think...you're right, Robert. :cool:

TenTigers

10-30-2008, 02:02 PM

well, how do you explain certain Masters of unique skill, that although they have many students, none were able to 'get their hand" except maybe one or two?
-besides maybe he wasn't a good teacher? And those two were exceptional-bright, talented, and driven?
So sometimes it isn't that a skill is secret, or closed door. Sometimes the students never really invested the time to achieve that skill.
Perhaps the students weren't able to comprehend the methods.

Another point-I have had teachers tell me,
"This stays here."
"This is for you. Not for outsiders"

What goes on in Vegas...

taai gihk yahn

10-30-2008, 02:06 PM

, no secret western fencing steps
not now - go back a few hundred years, when swords were used regularly, and I bet the community was rife w/that sort of thing (in fact, I can think of two european "period" fencing-themed movies dealing w/just that sort of notion)

Knifefighter

10-30-2008, 02:20 PM

Now, there is something about keeping stuff private, look at BJJ and when it came on the scene and how well it did because no one had seen it before, well...almost no one.
The reason BJJ was so effective was because it had been tested publicly in Brazil for 50 years. If it had been a closed door system, it would never have been as effective.

SimonM

10-30-2008, 02:24 PM

Knifefighter you forget that for a lot of people on this board if it didn't happen in the USA it didn't happen. ;)

(I'm 90% teasing with this)

Grilo

10-30-2008, 02:24 PM

Well, TMA have never been for the masses, that's what combat sports are for.
TMA = Elitist MA
What most view as TMA are the Sport arts that keep alive certain traditions, like TKD, Judo, Karate and so forth and they will always have their place with the masses.
MMA may be the "flavour of the month" and rightly so, but it doesn't appeal to all.

Umm... if they have never been for the masses why is judo so popular or TKD? or JKD for that matter. The sport arts do not keep "the" traditions alive that need to be kept. TMA like the kung fus' and jj's are the arts keeping the traditions alive. Case in point Judo. It use to be the MMA. It has strikes, throws, and submissions but as the sport side of it grows slowly and slowly they are not striking or submissing as much as they use to.

TMA will make a come back. MMA will die out as all the fighters are getting the same training and will plateau. Someone will revive an old TMA and start beating all the MMA and then it will be the flavor of the week.

What has to happen for TMA is for them to get together and make alliances so that resources can get shared and fees stay low.

my two cents

TenTigers

10-30-2008, 02:36 PM

forgive my ignorance, but what did the Gracies do for 50 years?
What innovative technique did they develop-besides GnP, which for most streetfighters, is part and parcel.
I understand they refined it, along with the mount, and escapes from it,
but fifty years?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U

people act is if they reinvented the wheel.

SimonM

10-30-2008, 02:47 PM

anerlich

10-30-2008, 03:07 PM

There is an argument that the teaching process is best handled by providing the student with information in a controlled fashion.

The common BJJ example is keeping beginners away from leglocks, so that they learn to pass the guard.

That said, IMHO secrets are ultimately counterproductive. The best techniques are the common high percentage ones that work even though people know them. To properly test a move, and fully develop it, you need to do so against the widest possible variety of actively resisting opponents. You can't do that with secret or "too deadly for competition" techniques.

I've always seen parallels with cryptography. "Security through obscurity" is usually futile. The best algorithms are those which are publicly known and widely published, which have had the best cryptographers in the world try to break them over periods of years. If the algorithm still holds up after that sort of pressure testing, you can have a high degree of confidence it's going to be unbreakable.

TMA will make a come back.

I don't think it ever went away. It just has some competition and many of its assumptions and claims are being actively questioned whereas they weren't before.

MMA will die out as all the fighters are getting the same training and will plateau.

I doubt it. MMA is the fastest growing and evolving combat sport on the planet. BJJ has so many different flavours and approaches that one could never learn them all, and new approaches are developing all the time. IMO BJJ is at least as technically rich and diverse as any KF style. Also, unlike many TMA's it has no problem blending in and adapting techniques from other arts. I've been to a number of BJJ and MMA schools and approaches vary enormously. no way is everyone "getting the same training".

Plateaus occur when an MA regards itself as complete, fully developed, incapable of improvement, and doesn't need to change with the times and as new information and approaches come about. That's (some) TMA's, not MMA.

Someone will revive an old TMA and start beating all the MMA and then it will be the flavor of the week.

Unlikely. If you don't train for MMA competition and rules, you won't succeed. Most (not all) MMA is based on MT and Jiu Jitsu, both of which are based on traditional MA. Boxing and wrestling have traditions, which many overlook because there are no "Sifus" or "Masters" or Oriental mystique. You don't HAVE to train boxing, MT, wrestling and Jiu Jitsu to compete in MMA - its just that hardly anyone who doesn't train at least some of these arts has succeeded as yet, save for a few judoka like Yoshida and Parisiyan who cross-trained anyway.

What has to happen for TMA is for them to get together and make alliances so that resources can get shared and fees stay low.

There are some very large TMA organisations already. TKD and judo are Olympic sports. Sport karate and wu shu are alive and well.

I can't ever see the various WC orgs getting together. Too many egos, entrenched positions, and bad blood. Can you?

IMO what makes or breaks any MA academy, be it TMA or MMA, is the mat culture. You can find MMA and BJJ schools whose attitude is little more than glorified thuggery, but you can find others full of mutual respect, strong ethics, intelligent instruction and training, and discipline.

Good TMA schools teach healthy values. But you don't have to look far to find TMA schools run by dangerous fruit loops who stunt, or bring out the worst, in their students.

Knifefighter

10-30-2008, 03:46 PM

IIRC most people mark the Helio Gracie / Mas Oyama (I think it was him) fight as the origin of the split between BJJ and JJJ. That was a while back now.

And it wasn't so much GnP they contributed (that was more the contribution of the UFC) it was rather a significant expansion of the tactical ground game for submission wrestling beyond what was previously available in Judo and JJJ.

I'm sure others can vet my statement for accuracy as I'm not 100% on this.

Mas Oyama was a Karate guy.

BJJ is basically the ground work of judo.

The break was between judo and JJJ and it was Kano.

The only "break" between BJJ and judo was the gradual inclusion of vale tudo into BJJ.

TenTigers

10-30-2008, 04:03 PM

I don't think it ever went away. It just has some competition and many of its assumptions and claims are being actively questioned whereas they weren't before.

I find the ones who have the loudest voices in this regard are the nobodys who have not actually been exposed to high level techniques in the first place. Since they have never seen it, and their teacher's never taught it, then therefore nobody else has it either.It doesn't exist.
The "If I can't have it, then nobody can have it" whining of the spoiled child that didn't get his way.

Let me put this out there:
How many of you have seen, or felt technique that has absolutely blown your mind? Not the skill that is simply really, really good. But something that you thought, up to that time, just simply wasn't attainable, or even possible?

I'll give you a few.

Y.H. Park was one of the most amazing TKD practitioners I have ever witnessed. His technique was picture perfect. He moved so effortlessly, and when he would in a relaxed manner, nonchalontly side kick the leather Everlast heavybag, it would buckle in half, and hit the ceiling.
The whole building shook. I thought I would never see another human like that again.
Then I trained with Hong Young Ki-Hwang Kee's son in law, who used to train the ROK Marines. He was breathtaking. He moved like a fine tuned machine. When you grabbed his wrists, he would flex his hands, and his wrists would expand, and your grip would break. His wrists felt like steel cables with thin skin over them.
He once did a spinning back kick and stopped it with a snap, an inch in front of my nose-while I was attacking. His control was astonishing. He wasn't human.

My SPM teacher makes the air pop from inches away, his hands stop my hardest punches with what feels like a baby's caress, and can with the same move, jolt the nerves in my arms like electric shocks. I have seen him "block" a 6'6" 300 lb Eighth dan's punch and send him flying back from it-with what appeared to be a mere flick.
He says his teacher is twice as good-that boggles the mind.
HIS teacher says Lam was twice as good as he is!
It's not magic, it's not fantasy, it's devotion.
But it exists.
Maybe the only real secret is hard work, time, effort, dedication.
Ever wonder why we call it,"Gung-Fu?"

So share with us some of your experiences.

Liddel

10-30-2008, 04:19 PM

I agree with alot of whats been said.....

My personal view robert is that, certainly in a TCMA sence the idea of having secrets has been blown out from something that was a smaller issue and made sence in a certain setting back in the day.

Knowledge is power and years ago keeping things indoors and not sharing was good for maintaining a MA's function or effectiveness.
How do you develope a strategy for something you've never seen before :rolleyes: especailly because there were and are so many different styles.
Secrecy was how they gained an edge.
Today the edge isnt knowledge or indeed experience, in a compitition setting at high levels its about conditioning and will IMO.

I think it also stemmed from showing someone but not releasing the theory to a student so they couldnt change and adapt it for other instances in fighting or as a training method, like Andrew pointed out not showing leg locks to focus on passing guard. Or in VT learning sticking first before learning how to get to a point where we can stick.... its a training method.

I believe its a cultural thing, or it was... nowadays it been blown out to be mysterious and to develope intrest. Its basicaly BS marketing. We are unique we have stuff others dont.... its a ploy, because in this day and age of information nothing is really secret or special its just got different packaging.

DREW

LoneTiger108

10-30-2008, 04:50 PM

... Martial arts are either functional or not.

Private vs. Public versions is like teaching for money, but not really teaching...

I have heard about public and private versions for many a time, but I think these are just people's way of saying, "I'm special, I've got the secrets."

People love a good mystery.

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

For your martial art to live inside you, you must have connected in some way to a great teacher.

Sometimes, to do this, we have to discuss how to teach new students. Private and public tuition is different. Money isn't an issue.

During your relationship with a Sifu, or brother, uncle, aunt and sister you all share times of hardship whilst training. Years go by and you're all still there learning, and witnessing people change and build into skilled martial artists. This may be more dramtic if you witness the beginning of a new school, where numbers are low and each individual receives specifics that others do not. Not secrecy, but selective teaching.

How we all arrive at our peak during our martial journey is our own little secret that is hard to share. Even if you can remember the exact path, your journey changes and you start again. The people have gone. Newbies try hard but can't endure. There's not enough time. Money is running out. Language changes. We all grow older.

Sharing is acheived through discussion more than fighting imo.

Let me put this out there:
How many of you have seen, or felt technique that has absolutely blown your mind? Not the skill that is simply really, really good. But something that you thought, up to that time, just simply wasn't attainable, or even possible?

I like this question. :) Probably the best question I've read on this forum. :D

Me? Too many times...

anerlich

10-30-2008, 07:05 PM

TenTigers

10-30-2008, 09:47 PM

anerlich

10-30-2008, 10:13 PM

no Anerlich, I wasn't referring to you, and judging by your answer, it obviously doesn't apply.

Cool. Peace.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 04:11 AM

The reason BJJ was so effective was because it had been tested publicly in Brazil for 50 years. If it had been a closed door system, it would never have been as effective.

Yes, we are aware of that, doesn't change the FACT that the people going into the early UFC's had no clue, does it?
Heck I heard of GJJ before the first lethal weapon, where it made its "debut"

t_niehoff

10-31-2008, 04:12 AM

no Anerlich, I wasn't referring to you, and judging by your answer, it obviously doesn't apply. There are others, however who perhaps due to a bad experience, a sound thrashing, or frusutration because they couldn't make their s*** work,or for self-promotion, or perhaps just because they found a new toy, insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

For another POV, let me say that over the years I too have seen amazing demonstrations but what I haven't seen is any of these people with amazing demonstration abilities able to do those things while fighting genuinely resisting, competently-skilled opponents. And while we hear stories of that happening, like Bigfoot and the Lochness monster, proof of such things always elude the light of day.

My view is that those sorts of demonstrations are both useless and deceptive -- used to convince people that "you too can have superpowers", that those guys have something to offer, so that people go off chasing (money in hand) those things when in fact no one can do these things in fighting (certainly not consistently and reliably), including the the demonstrating master. They are just demo skills (though highly developed) and nothing more. Put one of these amazing demo masters in against some moderately skilled MMA fighter, someone with no secrets, with no superpowers, with just solid fundamentals, and we'd see the demo master ground into pulp.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 04:13 AM

Umm... if they have never been for the masses why is judo so popular or TKD? or JKD for that matter. The sport arts do not keep "the" traditions alive that need to be kept. TMA like the kung fus' and jj's are the arts keeping the traditions alive. Case in point Judo. It use to be the MMA. It has strikes, throws, and submissions but as the sport side of it grows slowly and slowly they are not striking or submissing as much as they use to.

TMA will make a come back. MMA will die out as all the fighters are getting the same training and will plateau. Someone will revive an old TMA and start beating all the MMA and then it will be the flavor of the week.

What has to happen for TMA is for them to get together and make alliances so that resources can get shared and fees stay low.

my two cents

I don't think you read my post correctly.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 04:25 AM

I find the ones who have the loudest voices in this regard are the nobodys who have not actually been exposed to high level techniques in the first place. Since they have never seen it, and their teacher's never taught it, then therefore nobody else has it either.It doesn't exist.
The "If I can't have it, then nobody can have it" whining of the spoiled child that didn't get his way.

Let me put this out there:
How many of you have seen, or felt technique that has absolutely blown your mind? Not the skill that is simply really, really good. But something that you thought, up to that time, just simply wasn't attainable, or even possible?

I'll give you a few.

Y.H. Park was one of the most amazing TKD practitioners I have ever witnessed. His technique was picture perfect. He moved so effortlessly, and when he would in a relaxed manner, nonchalontly side kick the leather Everlast heavybag, it would buckle in half, and hit the ceiling.
The whole building shook. I thought I would never see another human like that again.
Then I trained with Hong Young Ki-Hwang Kee's son in law, who used to train the ROK Marines. He was breathtaking. He moved like a fine tuned machine. When you grabbed his wrists, he would flex his hands, and his wrists would expand, and your grip would break. His wrists felt like steel cables with thin skin over them.
He once did a spinning back kick and stopped it with a snap, an inch in front of my nose-while I was attacking. His control was astonishing. He wasn't human.

My SPM teacher makes the air pop from inches away, his hands stop my hardest punches with what feels like a baby's caress, and can with the same move, jolt the nerves in my arms like electric shocks. I have seen him "block" a 6'6" 300 lb Eighth dan's punch and send him flying back from it-with what appeared to be a mere flick.
He says his teacher is twice as good-that boggles the mind.
HIS teacher says Lam was twice as good as he is!
It's not magic, it's not fantasy, it's devotion.
But it exists.
Maybe the only real secret is hard work, time, effort, dedication.
Ever wonder why we call it,"Gung-Fu?"

So share with us some of your experiences.

I hear you bro and you know what? that is more than anything else, the crux of the matter.
What one has seen and experienced.
Now, as you know, I typically don't take anyone's word for anything, even more so MA related and even more so if I am being taught something that can save my butt or cost me my butt, I don't leave it to chance.
The high level of skill you mention, I have been blessed to see and even experience first hand.
When people make fun of TKD I laugh because I have seen what TKD can do.
Fact is, like I said before but I will clarify more now, Traditonal FIGHTING systems are not and never have been for anyone.
EX:
A friend of mine is heavily into MMA and he had no faith in the PE fist, "that crap doesn't work, it's useless" he said and he had a WC back ground before MMA.
He said that all the times HE tried to work it, it never worked and even his teacher couldn't make it work.
I asked him how many PE fist push-ups he could do and he said, " How many what?".
He couldn't even do 1, how can someone make a call on the effectivness of a technique if he can't even perform its most basic "function" ?
I showed him mine, first I did 10 PE push-ups then, when he held a yellow pages book to his chest, I drilled him with it.
He understood then.

LoneTiger108

10-31-2008, 04:47 AM

... A friend of mine is heavily into MMA and he had no faith in the PE fist, "that crap doesn't work, it's useless" he said and he had a WC back ground before MMA.

PE fist? Would that be a Phoenix Eye? If it is, and he's a WC man, he should've had more knowledge of it in the first place!!

...They are just demo skills (though highly developed) and nothing more. Put one of these amazing demo masters in against some moderately skilled MMA fighter, someone with no secrets, with no superpowers, with just solid fundamentals, and we'd see the demo master ground into pulp.

Agreed (to some extent)

But ask for a duel on the streets or a beimo in front of the village with no rules, and I feel these 'Demo Masters' might just walk away intact. And if they are too old to fight they would just select a good level student to give it a go instead.

Truth is, we all know a few tricks here and there. Solid fundamentals is just good kung fu imo and most decent teachers have that, plus years of experience teaching.

Far too much credit is given to the new breed of MMA competitor imo. It's almost like a severe 'lack of respect' has caused the new generations to question the old boys. I dunno about the States, but here in the UK our generation gap is widening but the 'respect' is still hanging in there!

You don't visit a Master to learn to brawl imho.

t_niehoff

10-31-2008, 05:12 AM

But ask for a duel on the streets or a beimo in front of the village with no rules, and I feel these 'Demo Masters' might just walk away intact. And if they are too old to fight they would just select a good level student to give it a go instead.

Many people mistakenly believe that alot of things they hear or that the things they see in demo/nonfighting will work/transfer to fighting. That's why those things sell. They don't sell based on proven usefulness in fighting. Instead of relying on belief, let's rely on evidence -- seeing for ourselves someone actually do those things while fighting a competant fighter -- and reject those things we never see.

Truth is, we all know a few tricks here and there. Solid fundamentals is just good kung fu imo and most decent teachers have that, plus years of experience teaching.

Good, solid skills don't depend on tricks. Solid fundamentals (fundamental skills) are those things that work -- and have proved and continue to be proved -- in fighting with competant opponents. If someone has those solid fundamentals they will be able to show them in fighting/sparring against competant fighters. And, in fact, you can't show or see the fundamentals except in/by fighting.

t_niehoff

10-31-2008, 05:17 AM

EX:
A friend of mine is heavily into MMA and he had no faith in the PE fist, "that crap doesn't work, it's useless" he said and he had a WC back ground before MMA.
He said that all the times HE tried to work it, it never worked and even his teacher couldn't make it work.
I asked him how many PE fist push-ups he could do and he said, " How many what?".
He couldn't even do 1, how can someone make a call on the effectivness of a technique if he can't even perform its most basic "function" ?
I showed him mine, first I did 10 PE push-ups then, when he held a yellow pages book to his chest, I drilled him with it.
He understood then.

This is a good example of what I mean: you use an example of a nonfighting demo to "prove" your point of the usefulness of TMA. "Boards don't hit back."

Why not a demo of your PE while sparring with a (genuine) muay thai fighter?

couch

10-31-2008, 05:24 AM

Sharing is acheived through discussion more than fighting imo.

You know, it's hard not to wax and wane on the "MMA/BJJ' stuff when it's so prevalent and in your face like Brittany Spear's you know what. Face it, popular culture and fads brainwash and that's what that marketing is designed to do. (Just another side of the coin)

The above quote from LT108 makes me think about my acupuncture education and now my martial education.

In acupuncture schools, (esp. in large schools) you are taught in the 'western way' in that you sit in front of a prof in a big room and just listen and take notes. That's NOT how acu and Chinese medicine was learned back in the day. It was learned via master-disciple transmission. Now there is a resurgence in Chinese medicine called Classical Chinese Medicine (to label it differently than Traditional Chinese Medicine - the 50 year old 'westernized' version of the medicine) to bring the medicine back to its Taoist and master-disciple roots.

When I was in school, I was blessed with a small class. Sometimes I was the only one in the class and one of my instructors (who is now my friend) would ask me if I just wanted to grab a Starbucks and shoot the crap. He would teach me about Taoism, Tai Chi, quantum mechanics, manifesting your destiny, how to grow an acu practice, etc. Not once did he sit down and teach anything 'physically' to do with acupuncture and CM. And I know now that that was the BEST part of my education.

In the Moy Yat family, they call that Kung-Fu life. Now looking at the above, I pose a question that is on the top of my head: Obviously we have to DO the physical part of the art and pressure test, but how much of the way of combat is learned via discussion? How much of the art is in the 'transmission' vs. the mash-mash? Is this way still valid or does it waste time or miss the point?

Just a side note, there are lots of MMA/BJJ schools who have a UFC night for all their students to keep up the comradeship, but is it the same as in the KF schools?

t_niehoff

10-31-2008, 05:33 AM

In the Moy Yat family, they call that Kung-Fu life. Now looking at the above, I pose a question that is on the top of my head: Obviously we have to DO the physical part of the art and pressure test, but how much of the way of combat is learned via discussion? How much of the art is in the 'transmission' vs. the mash-mash? Is this way still valid or does it waste time or miss the point?

In my view if we look at martial arts as athletic endeavors (like any sport) as opposed to "something else" (whatever that might possibly be), then the answer to your question is obvious. Do you become a better golfer by sitting around talking about golf? A better basketball player by sitting on your @ss? Or, do you develop better skills through practice, by doing it?

That's not to say that good (PROVEN) athletes can't give good pointers, inspire, etc. verbally. But physical skills are learned and developed by and through performance.

LoneTiger108

10-31-2008, 06:15 AM

... I pose a question that is on the top of my head: Obviously we have to DO the physical part of the art and pressure test, but how much of the way of combat is learned via discussion? How much of the art is in the 'transmission' vs. the mash-mash? Is this way still valid or does it waste time or miss the point?

I'm glad to see a post of mine made someone think at last!

Honestly, and especially where Wing Chun is concerned, most if not ALL the 'knowledge' can be picked up from general discussions and direct transmission. How we decide to use this knowledge is completely individual imo. I like to use the knowledge to improve peoples lives, to enrich their experience within Chinese Martial Arts (Chinese being the operative word here as language is very important imo) I've never been a fighter, and never intend to be one either.

I have nothing against the 'DOers', the fighters, the athletes but I do find that their attitude tends to also be as 'mixed up' as their martial arts. Many a time have I seen a fighter enter the hall and 'believe' in himself so much that he thinks nothing will hurt him, and if he connects with his right hook, clinch, or round kick then it will all be over. 10/10 times I have aslo seen very 'young' students dance around these guys as if they were a tree. Dominating the space time and time again.

Bottom line is that it's all subjective to the individual. People I guess like to smash ten tonnes out of eacother and feel that they are 'learning'. Although fighting is learning to some extent, it isn't the only way martial arts should be promoted.

I find nothing more barbaric than watching two grown men pit themselves against eachother in a 'cage', but then that's just me. I have a lot of respect for the athletes, the sportsmen, and I would hope they have respect for the older 'Classical' practitioners too.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 06:58 AM

This is a good example of what I mean: you use an example of a nonfighting demo to "prove" your point of the usefulness of TMA. "Boards don't hit back."

Why not a demo of your PE while sparring with a (genuine) muay thai fighter?

Actually, the point of that demos was how to STRUCTURE the PE fist, hence I mentioned how he can't even do a PE fist push-up so he has no business even trying to do it in a fight.
As for me doing it in a fight, I have done them in real fights and in bare knuckle matches, certainly not in MT, gloves and all that, but I used them in my kyokushin matches, though at the time it was not as well developed as I have it now, and they worked "just fine".
I used to do them in sparring but my partners didn't think it to kosher so, like elbows, I tend to use them "half power" just to make a point.
By the way, I don't know if you have ever been hit by a full force tempered PE fist, I have, in a full contact match and took out my right shoulder in one shot.
I friend of mine once described a true PE fist as a "blunt push-dagger".

t_niehoff

10-31-2008, 07:11 AM

Actually, the point of that demos was how to STRUCTURE the PE fist, hence I mentioned how he can't even do a PE fist push-up so he has no business even trying to do it in a fight.
As for me doing it in a fight, I have done them in real fights and in bare knuckle matches, certainly not in MT, gloves and all that, but I used them in my kyokushin matches, though at the time it was not as well developed as I have it now, and they worked "just fine".
I used to do them in sparring but my partners didn't think it to kosher so, like elbows, I tend to use them "half power" just to make a point.
By the way, I don't know if you have ever been hit by a full force tempered PE fist, I have, in a full contact match and took out my right shoulder in one shot.
I friend of mine once described a true PE fist as a "blunt push-dagger".

I agree that not being able to do something outside of fighting indicates that you won't be able to do it in fighting. However, being able to do something outside of fighting is no indication that you will be able to do it in fighting -- or that if you can that you'd necessarily want to (that it produces good results).

I don't find personal anecdotes to be particularly compelling evidence (for a number of reasons). If I did, then I'd accept stories of alien abductions and Yeti sightings.

Grilo

10-31-2008, 07:14 AM

Sorry sanjuro_ronin I did read it wrong. I totally mis read it. Will teach me to read two things at once and try to reply to each.

On Transmission vs Action I have read many pages, with a grain of salt, that old WC Sifus would teach parts and then in the Kung Fu way of life talk about the rest while walking en the garden or having tea. If talking about it doesnt help you get better you are viewing it as a sport. and Yes having done research in the field of sports psychology elite athletes do talk about their sport just as much as they practise.

If you dont talk about your art and fully understand it how do you know you are doing it right? There are tons of people doing the wrong thing right and the right thing wrong. and WC specific if you are not talking about your Concept as it is a concept art how do you even know you are doing WC. Center line THEORY not technique.

IMO

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 07:18 AM

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 07:20 AM

Yes, we are aware of that, doesn't change the FACT that the people going into the early UFC's had no clue, does it?
Heck I heard of GJJ before the first lethal weapon, where it made its "debut"

Wanted to add something to this, The Gracies tested their MA in public VS all systems and people, but they did train in "private" and kept many things "in the family".
Supposedly they still do.

Kansuke

10-31-2008, 07:24 AM

I find nothing more barbaric than watching two grown men pit themselves against eachother in a 'cage'.

Why "barbaric?"

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 07:32 AM

bar·bar·ic /bɑrˈbærɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bahr-bar-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. without civilizing influences; uncivilized; primitive: barbaric invaders.
2. of, like, or befitting barbarians: a barbaric empire; barbaric practices.
3. crudely rich or splendid: barbaric decorations.
[Origin: 1480–90; < L barbaricus < Gk barbarikós. See barbarous, -ic]

—Related forms
bar·bar·i·cal·ly, adverb

—Synonyms 1, 3. See barbarian.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
bar·bar·ic (bär-bār'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of barbarians.
2. Marked by crudeness or lack of restraint in taste, style, or manner.

[Latin barbaricus, from Greek barbarikos, from barbaros, foreign.]
bar·bar'i·cal·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
CITE THIS SOURCE|PRINT
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
barbaric

adjective
1. without civilizing influences; "barbarian invaders"; "barbaric practices"; "a savage people"; "fighting is crude and uncivilized especially if the weapons are efficient"-Margaret Meade; "wild tribes" [syn: barbarian]
2. unrestrained and crudely rich; "barbaric use of color or ornament"

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 07:33 AM

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
bar·bar·i·an /bɑrˈbɛəriən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bahr-bair-ee-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person in a savage, primitive state; uncivilized person.
2. a person without culture, refinement, or education; philistine.
3. (loosely) a foreigner.
4. (in ancient and medieval periods)
a. a non-Greek.
b. a person living outside, esp. north of, the Roman Empire.
c. a person not living in a Christian country or within a Christian civilization.
5. (among Italians during the Renaissance) a person of non-Italian origin.
–adjective
6. uncivilized; crude; savage.
7. foreign; alien.

t_niehoff

10-31-2008, 07:39 AM

If you dont talk about your art and fully understand it how do you know you are doing it right? There are tons of people doing the wrong thing right and the right thing wrong. and WC specific if you are not talking about your Concept as it is a concept art how do you even know you are doing WC. Center line THEORY not technique.
IMO

When does someone "fully understand" golf or tennis or basketball -- or wrestling or boxing? "Understanding" isn't really an issue. Performance is. And performance doesn't come from understanding but understanding (fwiw) comes from performance. Increased skill in performance comes with practice (from repeated performance).

Focusing on "understanding" comes from viewing WCK as a "conceptual art" ("I must understand the concepts"). It's not a conceptual art. But some people try to teach it from that approach. However, you can't teach or develop skill in athletic activities, like golf or tennis or boxing or wrestling -- including WCK -- from a conceptual approach.

You asked about knowing when you are doing something "right." You know that you are "doing it right" when you can consistently and reliably use the movements of WCK (the movements from the forms and drills) successfully in fighting with competant, genuinely resisting opponents. Just like you know you're drive in golf is "right" or your forehand in tennis is "right" by your performance results. You don't need anyone to tell you that you are doing it right.

LoneTiger108

10-31-2008, 07:50 AM

Why "barbaric?"

I think Sanjuros posts say it all! ;) Albeit a little too precise for what I was meaning I think.

I just don't like fighting for competitive reasons, money and fame.

Any fight I've been in (and yes there have been a few scraps!!) ended very very quickly, and normally from one strike. I personally have yet to pound someones head in the ground for them to know they can not 'win'.

Martial Arts is, or should be, about self preservation imo. Not violence and competitions.

Focusing on "understanding" comes from viewing WCK as a "conceptual art" ("I must understand the concepts"). It's not a conceptual art. But some people try to teach it from that approach. However, you can't teach or develop skill in athletic activities, like golf or tennis or boxing or wrestling -- including WCK -- from a conceptual approach.

Probably the worst post from you in a while T. :o

SimonM

10-31-2008, 07:51 AM

Mas Oyama was a Karate guy.

BJJ is basically the ground work of judo.

The break was between judo and JJJ and it was Kano.

The only "break" between BJJ and judo was the gradual inclusion of vale tudo into BJJ.

I defer to your superior knowlege on jma and the relationship of jma personages to the origin of BJJ. :)

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 07:56 AM

I defer to your superior knowlege on jma and the relationship of jma personages to the origin of BJJ. :)

It was Kimura not Oyama, by the way.

TenTigers

10-31-2008, 08:24 AM

I wasn't referring to tricks, demos, parlor trcks, or whatever. I was referring to seeing, touching, witnessing real, high level skill. Period. Skill that even a blind man can see is immediately applicable, transferrable, useabel(pick a word) in combat.
Sure, I know in past threads, and on youtube, people have shown some pretty cool feats, breaks, techniques, whatever. This is not what I was referrring to. If you need to, re-read my original post.

As far as learning over tea. There are many things you learn about your art, yourself, connections, understandings occur through discussion, perhaps due to the relaxed atmosphere, that do not occur otherwise. Often times, you need to think about your art. What youare doing right, what you are doing wrong. How different things affect you. Sometimes learning the correct attitude for training is explained. It is endless. Many things happen in discussion over tea. There is much more to direct transmission than simply hitting you in the head.

Some of you keep sidelining and hijacking the discussions. Give some of us the benefit of the doubt that we might have been around the block a few times, and what you are "enlightening" us with is nothing new. Your discussion has been done to death, and really belongs on another forum. We are discussing something else entirely.

KPM

10-31-2008, 08:27 AM

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

I agree with you 100% Robert! I have had one prominent Wing Chun Sifu from Australia tell me that he did not speak about his lineage in forums or amongst people that weren't his students because this would be like "casting pearls before swine." Yet I think back to when Ted Lucaylucay was still around and going strong. He did a series of seminars around the country aimed exactly at revealing things that might have been considered "secret" about FMA instruction in the past. His concern was for quality and effectiveness amongst FMA practitioners, not about keeping things secret. One of my previous instructors, who many are familiar with on this forum (but who shall remain nameless lest the moderators feel the need to lock this thread as well) once seriously chastised me for asking in a semi-private discussion forum about the use of a "Got Sao" in a Wing Chun lineage other than our own. He was concerned about telling people outside our lineage too much about what we do. It got to the point that he told me not to participate in any on-line forums because I have a big mouth (which may be true) and he was afraid I would say things he didn't want me to say. That whole "Chinese Master" act that even some on this forum like to put forth where you insinuate you know something but won't say it outright just really irritates me. It does no one any good. There may have been a place for secrecy in the past when keeping a potential opponent in the dark about how you fought might save your life just doesn't apply today. We should all be willing to share what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 08:30 AM

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 08:32 AM

I agree with you 100% Robert! I have had one prominent Wing Chun Sifu from Australia tell me that he did not speak about his lineage in forums or amongst people that weren't his students because this would be like "casting pearls before swine." Yet I think back to when Ted Lucaylucay was still around and going strong. He did a series of seminars around the country aimed exactly at revealing things that might have been considered "secret" about FMA instruction in the past. His concern was for quality and effectiveness amongst FMA practitioners, not about keeping things secret. One of my previous instructors, who many are familiar with on this forum (but who shall remain nameless lest the moderators feel the need to lock this thread as well) once seriously chastised me for asking in a semi-private discussion forum about the use of a "Got Sao" in a Wing Chun lineage other than our own. He was concerned about telling people outside our lineage too much about what we do. It got to the point that he told me not to participate in any on-line forums because I have a big mouth (which may be true) and he was afraid I would say things he didn't want me to say. That whole "Chinese Master" act that even some on this forum like to put forth where you insinuate you know something but won't say it outright just really irritates me. It does no one any good. There may have been a place for secrecy in the past when keeping a potential opponent in the dark about how you fought might save your life just doesn't apply today. We should all be willing to share what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general.

Its a tricky slope bro, on the one hand, knwoing soemthing that is not common knowledge gives you the edge, on the other, how can you develop it correctly and practically without exposing it to OPEN fighting?

chusauli

10-31-2008, 09:55 AM

My guess is if an instructor teaches, they should simply teach.

Of course, each may have their requirements before releasing "advanced" material.

Secrets of the past like the Yi Jing, Feng Shui, Astrology, medicine, acupuncture points, are hardly secrets these days, as well as physical training, forms, etc.

Of course, real secrets are in the training progression and application. I have yet to see fighters get knocked out by mysterious secret techniques. Most people lose by the most popular movements - i.e. knee to the face, right cross, naked choke, etc.

Many of these "secrets" are just details or part of the lore of a system. But some of these details are so difficult to train, that unless you went and trained in a particular system for a while, you wouldn't be able to do what a trained practitioner could do.

Others use this to their advantage for ego boost, money, ego enhancement, advertising, etc.

This has been a great discussion!

Best regards,

couch

10-31-2008, 10:19 AM

This has been a great discussion!

Best regards,

This HAS been a great discussion so far. It has given me a lot to think about.

Knifefighter

10-31-2008, 10:43 AM

But ask for a duel on the streets or a beimo in front of the village with no rules, and I feel these 'Demo Masters' might just walk away intact. .

As someone who has been around for years in environments of no rules matches, my experience has been that, almost without exception, the Demo Masters get smoked.

Knifefighter

10-31-2008, 10:45 AM

Obviously we have to DO the physical part of the art and pressure test, but how much of the way of combat is learned via discussion?

Very little.

Knifefighter

10-31-2008, 10:56 AM

Wanted to add something to this, The Gracies tested their MA in public VS all systems and people, but they did train in "private" and kept many things "in the family".
Supposedly they still do.

Keeping something private means that others will pass you by. The Gracies have learned this lesson. Which is another benefit of open testing. It only lets you keep disadvantageous practices for relatively short durations before you are forced to change them.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 11:00 AM

Keeping something private means that others will pass you by. The Gracies have learned this lesson. Which is another benefit of open testing. It only lets you keep disadvantageous practices for relatively short durations before you are forced to change them.

Agreed, but its not only the TMA that are guilty of this.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 11:03 AM

As someone who has been around for years in environments of no rules matches, my experience has been that, almost without exception, the Demo Masters get smoked.

I would tend to agree, perhaps not so much in the past, though it may be debatable, but more so now.
One of the reason you almsot never see MA being done in a fight like they are demo'ed is because they DON'T pressure test them in THAT way and when they do try, because of lack of pressure testing, the fail because their whole training was base don a false premise.
Typically.

chusauli

10-31-2008, 11:10 AM

As someone who has been around for years in environments of no rules matches, my experience has been that, almost without exception, the Demo Masters get smoked.

I agree 100%!

Let's say someone has studied in secret an unknown system, maybe one that was once proven in previous generations, but without testing in today's environment, they wouldn't know how to handle boxing, wrestling, judo, muay thai, BJJ, etc. or even popular martial arts system of the present, let alone the weapons of today.

Having a student only study Chi Sao without fighting training is ineffective. There has to be ongoing adaptation to the environment.

That's also why no one art is complete.

Knifefighter

10-31-2008, 11:13 AM

I would tend to agree, perhaps not so much in the past, though it may be debatable, but more so now.
One of the reason you almsot never see MA being done in a fight like they are demo'ed is because they DON'T pressure test them in THAT way and when they do try, because of lack of pressure testing, the fail because their whole training was base don a false premise.
Typically.

When I was 19, I fought a kung fu "master" that had resulted from a heated pick-up flag football game. I knew the guy and had seen him do some amazing demos. He had a reputation as some kind of unbeatable fighter based on these demos. My only training at the time was high school wrestling and I was convinced that I was going to get completely creamed. I shot it in, double legged him and beat the snot out of him on the ground. The guy had no clue about anything related to actual fighting... although he looked like he did when he did his demos.

lkfmdc

10-31-2008, 11:13 AM

I started off in Korean arts, then spent two decades (+) in TCMA.... If a teacher tells you that you can only learn something "later" or it is "special" or "secret" etc I can say without reservation it is little more than a way to deflect your inquiry. And in many cases it is because the teacher DOES NOT KNOW THE MATERIAL

There are things I learned from CTS that were supposed to be "secret" or "advanced" or "private"... He taught them to ALL OF US. I would visit with teachers on the west coast, mention those things, they'd give me the old "secret" speech and then I would inform them that I had already learned it. 9 out of 10 times they would then admit that they didn't learn it.

Even if I have a student regularly attending classes it is going to take me YEARS to teach them everything I've learned over the years.

To make that more complicated, I keep learning, and as I learn I change stuff. Why would I hold back when I don't even have the time to teach them the things I consider basic?

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 11:15 AM

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 11:18 AM

When I was 19, I fought a kung fu "master" that had resulted from a heated pick-up flag football game. I knew the guy and had seen him do some amazing demos. He had a reputation as some kind of unbeatable fighter based on these demos. My only training at the time was high school wrestling and I was convinced that I was going to get completely creamed. I shot it in, double legged him and beat the snot out of him on the ground. The guy had no clue about anything related to actual fighting... although he looked like he did when he did his demos.

Heck, when I was 13 I got my clock cleaned by a boxer because I thought my uber deadly skills were just that based on my quite excellent forms and demo-skills.
Got learn sometime.

kung fu fighter

10-31-2008, 11:52 AM

I agree with you 100% Robert! I have had one prominent Wing Chun Sifu from Australia tell me that he did not speak about his lineage in forums or amongst people that weren't his students because this would be like "casting pearls before swine." Yet I think back to when Ted Lucaylucay was still around and going strong. He did a series of seminars around the country aimed exactly at revealing things that might have been considered "secret" about FMA instruction in the past. His concern was for quality and effectiveness amongst FMA practitioners, not about keeping things secret. One of my previous instructors, who many are familiar with on this forum (but who shall remain nameless lest the moderators feel the need to lock this thread as well) once seriously chastised me for asking in a semi-private discussion forum about the use of a "Got Sao" in a Wing Chun lineage other than our own. He was concerned about telling people outside our lineage too much about what we do. It got to the point that he told me not to participate in any on-line forums because I have a big mouth (which may be true) and he was afraid I would say things he didn't want me to say. That whole "Chinese Master" act that even some on this forum like to put forth where you insinuate you know something but won't say it outright just really irritates me. It does no one any good. There may have been a place for secrecy in the past when keeping a potential opponent in the dark about how you fought might save your life just doesn't apply today. We should all be willing to share what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general.

I completely agree with Keith regarding "sharing what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general". when i joined this forum that was what i thought it was all about, not about holding secrets from one another to protect certain wc linages. wing chun already has a bad enough reputation as not being practical under real pressure from guys who actually fights such as MMA and Muay thai fighters. while we fight to hold secrets from one another instead of uniting to bring back respect to the wing chun system, they laugh at us when you mention you practice wing chun. Look no further that the record of wing chun fighters in the ufc, they never won a fight. No wonder we have yet to produce a professional fighter who wins at that level.

sihing

10-31-2008, 12:20 PM

And that truly is the crux of the thing, pressure testing to see in what regard you system is lacking.
How do you do thing in a "closed door" environment?
You can't.
There was a time that systems were created to "defeat" other systems and to some extent, this still goes on.
The view that some have that WC was created to defeat the "long bridges" of the typical systems of the time, is an example.
But this is possible only by pressure testing a system VS the types of systems that they will be facing.
Training WC VS WC makes WC work VS WC.

Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Regarding training WC vs WC, I belive this is a good method if you want to acquire specific Wing Chun skills. Partly because WC is used in a specified arena of combat IMO, and that is when there is a clash of arms or a interruption of your strikes towards someone by them blocking your strike, or you making contact with his, this is where some of the skills acquired from WC training come into play (the most common skills that WC is known for, there are other skills learned as well). If I train WC vs Boxer to early, with the boxer avoiding contact and hitting around my centerline attacks and defense, I will never Learn what to do when my strikes are defended with a arm to arm contact. Do you get my drift?......Now, some fighters when there is a clash at close range will shoot in for a takedown, throw another punch with the other side, use that same hand to come around with a hook, etc etc.. there are a million and one things one can do when there is a clash of strikes and defenses.....Basically, in WC we follow in and go forward towards your COM, regardless of how someone defends my strikes, we learn not to go around something, but to deflect/absorb/ward off, trap it, hit thru it, push/pull, and lots of other things. All of this is happening very fast. We learn to not stop, but to flow thru things, while maintaining a certain body mechanic and structure......Now once this is learned, how to deal with heavy contact pressure and such, we then have to learn how to deal with people that avoid the pressure. Most of this has to do with eating their space, and functioning in very close range environment, so that they can't use their longer range strikes or kicks effectively, because you are attacking their COM, while hitting them with everything you got. This takes a certain body mechanic and sensitivty to perform effectively. WC requires courage to work the way it is meant to, as you learn not to retreat from someone attacking, but rather go forward, into their attacks, eating their space and taking it to them, applying this is hard, and not for everyone.

IMO it is never about testing the "System", but rather testing the individuals increased combat effectiveness due to his training in the WC system. WC by itself cannot do anything, it is us, human beings that makes the training become alive. So if that is true, it is never WC vs Boxing, or WC vs Wrestling, or WC vs MT, rather it is individual A vs Boxing, Individual C vs Wrestling, and Individual D vs MT, since WC is only a Training system, rather than a MA that says when he does this you do that, this is application based model......One has to learn the system, than apply it for themselves by putting it to the test with other people from whatever discipline ***this is an individuals personal decision, based on their needs and wants from the system they train in***, as no two people that learn a specific set of knowlege apply things exactly the same way. The goal is to "Never" need to exibit or demonstrate WC in a fight, but to use the training when ever it is needed. WSL said it best, never be a slave to the system, we need to use it as it is needed for whatever situation comes our way.

WC is not complete, in that it encompasses all techniques and concepts/principles known in the MA, it is a specific, simple system that teaches basically one punch, but one punch with total body mechanics behind it giving one good solid power in their strikes, that can be launched one after the other in quick succession with a built in guidence system towards it's target. It is meant to be used in situations that are unexpected, will no prior knowledge by the person being attacked. One could easily come up with a strategy to defeat a so called "WC" fighter, if they had prior knowledge and awareness that the fight was going to take place. This can be said for any practitioner of any MA/Fighting art. Some people prefer Boxing, or Karate or FMA striking systems as their stand up method, this is find and dandy, as all of these arts have something to offer. It is only when you say, "Only I have the answers, and Only what I do is the best", that you need to stand up and prove your point.

Private vs Public, this is marketing scheme's to bring the gulible in for the purposes of increasing profits. I know for a fact, thru my own experience, that some people just don't know what they don't know. Most of us have to be taught how to do something, and then practice it over and over again. There are no real secrets out there, just things we don't know yet:)

James

Knifefighter

10-31-2008, 12:50 PM

If I train WC vs Boxer to early, with the boxer avoiding contact and hitting around my centerline attacks and defense, I will never Learn what to do when my strikes are defended with a arm to arm contact.

And you will never learn how to fight against a boxer... only against another WC guy.

BJJ guys learned this lesson about leg locks about 10 years ago or so (although some of them still haven't take that lesson to heart when it comes to heel hooks).

SimonM

10-31-2008, 01:06 PM

Nobody is saying it's BAD to train VS your own style.

Just that it's BAD to JUST train VS your own style.

sanjuro_ronin

10-31-2008, 01:39 PM

sihing

10-31-2008, 03:38 PM

The issue of training only or the majority of time VS your own system is one of function and practicality.
How practical is it to train in a way that has very little cross-over in terms of real fighting in a self protection or even sport application?

I think one has to see how the training does relate to self protection. When I teach something very WC specific, like dan chi for example, I try to relate it to how one could use what they are learning from the drill to an actual situation. All we are really doing with a drill like dan chi is isolating a particular situation or moment in time, to learn a particular attribute, body mechanic or concept. Problem is people become masters of drills, without the knowledge of how it actually relates to a real situation. Fights will not happen from a dan chi structure, but if I punch you, and you defend by having a hand/arm on the inside of my forearm, right there is the moment that the training kicks in, and only for that moment (e.g. I can use the idea fok sau teaches to subdue your arm, make it go down and away from me, all the while I am still heading towards your COM and striking you). The drill is a basic one, and is accompanied with other drills later on that bring about more realistic actions in the training, but dan chi is the starting point.

JR

Liddel

10-31-2008, 07:54 PM

I think from that point james you need to take the isolated part from the drill and then put it in an isolated sparring setting.

Put gloves on and ask a guy to try and hit you from chi dan position with full intent and perhaps half force etc... that would then lend to Ronins call about having practical application towards a real situation.....well, closer than the drill anyway.

Ive found 6oz fingerless can help for this platform of training.

DREW

bennyvt

11-01-2008, 08:08 AM

wasnt the thing with helio with a Kosun judo guy. He has videos out saying, watch the man that beat helio in 1951. That was were the kimura came into BJJ as helio got his arm broken.

Ultimatewingchun

11-01-2008, 08:12 AM

Or maybe it's hard to find the WC "look" in a real fight because the "look" only predominates against other WC that expects every fight or spar to emphasize arm-to-arm contact as part of basically every exchange - and that it be done from very close range.

Without a somewhat different "look" at any range other than very close quarters (and sometimes even including close quarters against a good hook and uppercut puncher whose arms won't engage before hitting a target) - WC has problems...

hence a "more-of-a-boxing-look" (or a kickboxing look) is always the criticism when watching a WC fight or a realistic spar against a skilled opponent or partner.

WC is basically a one dimensional art, and until people fully understand that, the art is going nowhere in 2008 and beyond, imo.

chusauli

11-01-2008, 09:13 AM

These are secrets:

- Not banging your forearm with a kettlebell when you snatch or clean
- Walking into an oncoming punch or kick to deliver your own
- timing a strike
- optimally using your structure to issue power
- flowing from one submission base to another
- sliding your knives up and down a long pole
- alter your stance to have balance
- properly manipulating a pole with your whole body and not just your arms
- ignoring your students' gossip/criticism
- punching a wall bag without hooks on the wall
- not gassing out after 3 minutes of all out attack on airshields
- striking focus mitts with power in either hand
- the discipline to train daily
- many more...

...but these all come out in regular, proper training.

The ancients were right when they referred to Yat Daam (1st Courage), Yee Lik (2nd Power), Saam Gung Fu (3rd Attainment). I can't give you courage, its something you need to push things through; I can't give you power - you need to develop it properly by doing your work and finding that momentum and proper use of the body; I can show you my attainment, but you have to have your own atttainment - find it in yourself to move well and follow the guiding principles.

In forums, you can only talk about them, but in your school you can develop them.

TenTigers

11-01-2008, 09:27 AM

The ancients were right when they referred to Yat Daam (1st Courage), Yee Lik (2nd Power), Saam Gung Fu (3rd Attainment). I can't give you courage, its something you need to push things through; I can't give you power - you need to develop it properly by doing your work and finding that momentum and proper use of the body; I can show you my attainment, but you have to have your own atttainment - find it in yourself to move well and follow the guiding principles.

That's golden.

With your permission, I would like to have that printed up and placed on my wall in my Kwoon.

(That would make a terrific poster-you should market it!):cool:

Ali. R

11-01-2008, 09:28 AM

Or maybe it's hard to find the WC "look" in a real fight because the "look" only predominates against other WC that expects every fight or spar to emphasize arm-to-arm contact as part of basically every exchange - and that it be done from very close range.

Structure is one of the main arteries that intertwine within the body of wing chun, it’s structure that gives the system it’s identity…

If one lose structure, he lose the heartbeat of the system…

Ali Rahim.

chusauli

11-01-2008, 11:01 AM

That's golden.

With your permission, I would like to have that printed up and placed on my wall in my Kwoon.

(That would make a terrific poster-you should market it!):cool:

Sure, go right ahead!

Many thanks!

Knifefighter

11-01-2008, 11:24 AM

- sliding your knives up and down a long pole
- properly manipulating a pole with your whole body and not just your arms
-.

You can train all you want with your poles, but if you never fight full contact with them you will never be able to fight with them at all.

chusauli

11-01-2008, 11:31 AM

"You can train all you want with your poles, but if you never fight full contact with them you will never be able to fight with them at all. " - Knifefighter

Absolutely!

Few really practice the pole with full contact. It was the norm for Southern pole - pretty dances aside, you had to really use it. That's why all Southern fist have a good polework.

LSWCTN1

11-01-2008, 02:49 PM

You can train all you want with your poles, but if you never fight full contact with them you will never be able to fight with them at all.

disagree completely...

however - if you never fight full contact with them, you will never prove you can fight with them.

if the situation arises where someone swings a pool cue at you your training will kick in, even if that training has never been full contact

Liddel

11-01-2008, 03:56 PM

if the situation arises where someone swings a pool cue at you your training will kick in, even if that training has never been full contact

.....Of course it will kick in, it just wont be very good !

If this was the case then VT wouldnt need Chi Kwan and Chi Do drills to bridge the gap for a student from form to application. Its the step between form and full contact training.

I realise that alot of people stop at this point thinking they've got it. But IME its just the tip of te iceberg.
Ive learnt a whole lot of VT from training under my Sifu but ive leart so much from application in full contact settings it almost is more important because it then becomes yours and its a part of you not a copy of your Sifu.

You cant be told or learn just from the classroom, you have to experience it yourself...... Read Roberts post

The ancients were right when they referred to Yat Daam (1st Courage), Yee Lik (2nd Power), Saam Gung Fu (3rd Attainment). I can't give you courage, its something you need to push things through; I can't give you power - you need to develop it properly by doing your work and finding that momentum and proper use of the body; I can show you my attainment, but you have to have your own atttainment - find it in yourself to move well and follow the guiding principles.

DREW

couch

11-01-2008, 04:26 PM

If this was the case then VT wouldnt need Chi Kwan and Chi Do drills to bridge the gap for a student from form to application. Its the step between form and full contact training.
DREW

Same goes with Goh Sau, hey? I'm continually amazed at how 'complete' the system is at times. It has all these pieces to bridge the gaps. IMO, WC starts with simple partner drills that ingrain the concepts, then it starts to put a little pressure on in a post-contact scenario. Then you pour it on with a little bit of a gap in between...then a 'full gap' between.

Love this stuff.

Wu Wei Wu

11-01-2008, 05:04 PM

My interpretation is that Wing Chun theory should undergo constant pressure testing (falsification) and only those aspects that continue to operate following such testing should be retained. I am an admirer of Kuhn and Popper's theories of scientific verification and think they can apply to Wing Chun.

For example Popper's theory of falsification:

"5. Every genuine test of a theory is an attempt to falsify it, or to refute it. Testability is falsifiability; but there are degrees of testability: some theories are more testable, more exposed to refutation, than others; they take, as it were, greater risks.

6. Confirming evidence should not count except when it is the result of a genuine test of the theory; and this means that it can be presented as a serious but unsuccessful attempt to falsify the theory. (I now speak in such cases of "corroborating evidence.")

7. Some genuinely testable theories, when found to be false, are still upheld by their admirers — for example by introducing ad hoc some auxiliary assumption, or by reinterpreting the theory ad hoc in such a way that it escapes refutation. Such a procedure is always possible, but it rescues the theory from refutation only at the price of destroying, or at least lowering, its scientific status. (I later described such a rescuing operation as a "conventionalist twist" or a "conventionalist stratagem.")

One can sum up all this by saying that the criterion of the scientific status of a theory is its falsifiability, or refutability, or testability."

Suki Gosal

LSWCTN1

11-01-2008, 07:21 PM

.....Of course it will kick in, it just wont be very good !

that i agree with - it could certainly be much improved by full contact sparring/or whatever you prefer to call it, but to say that you will never win without that said training is wrong

you may not beat a skilled 'pole artist' but how many of them turn into drunken idiots in pubs or bars? i'll hazard a guess at not many

i suppose, again, it comes down to what you learn wc for. for me i am not interested in competing - but i am interested in sparring with somebody from whatever discipline to see how well i have progressed. if it comes down to a real fight - a proper 'straightener' as we call them on this side of the pond - then i am confident based on my training and previous experience that i can handle a pub drunk or most interpretations of trouble maker.

for me this is enough, i dont actively seek fights and if i am forced into a situation where i need to fight i'm a dirty little cheat who will kick you in the knackers and most certainly strike your neck to make sure that i go on enjoying my night and you leave me alone.

im not going to be allowed to attempt this in competition so to practice and train in a competition that limits your repertoire (for me) is wrong

i think people who do cross train and pressure test are to be admired - but i dont think they should then spout off this 'holier than thou' cr@p saying that it is the ONLY way

-have i seen wing chun work in a true street encounter? on more than a few occasions.
-am i confident that if i practice hard enough it will serve me well? most definately
can i use it to defend myself? id like to think so
-is the average street fight going to be against a trained fighter of any discipline? most probably not.
-therefore am i acheiving my present goals? i believe so.

stonecrusher69

11-02-2008, 09:29 AM

Its a tricky slope bro, on the one hand, knwoing soemthing that is not common knowledge gives you the edge, on the other, how can you develop it correctly and practically without exposing it to OPEN fighting?

I think if Chunners share openly it will raise the bar of wing chun just like MMA has because everyone is looking for the next edge so wing chun will grow.But thats not what's going to happen because of ego.

GreenCloudCLF

11-02-2008, 10:14 AM

I think if Chunners share openly it will raise the bar of wing chun just like MMA has because everyone is looking for the next edge so wing chun will grow.But thats not what's going to happen because of ego.

It's not ego. It's fear. Too many TMA are scared that their stuff won't hold up to what is readily available these days. Now, I am not saying the WC, CLF, or any TMA is no good, but there are too many that teach "secretly" for whatever reason. But mostly, IMO, it is fear of realizing 20 years of training was worthless.

TenTigers

11-02-2008, 11:54 AM

there are too many that teach "secretly" for whatever reason. But mostly, IMO, it is fear of realizing 20 years of training was worthless.

I don't think that is the situation -at least that's not what I think of when I think of private instructors.
I have one teacher that is 75 yrs old, is retired, but still maintains a small dit da practice, making house calls, and teaches a few cops, a small tai chi group, his grndson, and me. Why? Because at this point in his life, he does it purely for enjoyment.

My SPM teacher is not so unique to our system. Traditionally, the teacher takes in only five students at a time. In this way, each student can pair off with a partner, while the teacher can rotate with the odd man out, training hands on-direct transmission. Too large a class, and he is spread too thin. That is how he chooses to teach.

There are plenty of very good people out there looking for just one or a few good men to hand their system down to. They don't seek big schools, magazine articles,or the limelight. They simply feel that they have something special and they want to share it.

stonecrusher69

11-02-2008, 12:28 PM

It's not ego. It's fear. Too many TMA are scared that their stuff won't hold up to what is readily available these days. Now, I am not saying the WC, CLF, or any TMA is no good, but there are too many that teach "secretly" for whatever reason. But mostly, IMO, it is fear of realizing 20 years of training was worthless.

I agree...but some teachers also are just selfish and greedy holding back information fearing their students will surpass him.That's why you always hear the student say my teacher is twice as good as me and his teacher is even better,so that tell me either two things.either the students is not practice or the teacher is with holding information.

TenTigers

11-02-2008, 12:44 PM

I agree...but some teachers also are just selfish and greedy holding back information fearing their students will surpass him.That's why you always hear the student say my teacher is twice as good as me and his teacher is even better,so that tell me either two things.either the students is not practice or the teacher is with holding information.

or three-that the teacher is still learning, evolving and improving, as well as the student.

Knifefighter

11-02-2008, 12:45 PM

for me this is enough, i dont actively seek fights and if i am forced into a situation where i need to fight i'm a dirty little cheat who will kick you in the knackers and most certainly strike your neck to make sure that i go on enjoying my night and you leave me alone.

I've been around the combative systems for 30 years now and I can say with certainty that these are invariably the words of someone who is very inexperienced at fighting in any form.

TenTigers

11-02-2008, 12:55 PM

Knifefighter's got a point.

HA! YA GET IT? POINT! KNIFE? POINT? AYE? HAHAHAHA!
(I kill me)
but, yeah. He does.

sanjuro_ronin

11-03-2008, 05:30 AM

These are secrets:

- not gassing out after 3 minutes of all out attack on airshields
...

...but these all come out in regular, proper training.

The ancients were right when they referred to Yat Daam (1st Courage), Yee Lik (2nd Power), Saam Gung Fu (3rd Attainment). I can't give you courage, its something you need to push things through; I can't give you power - you need to develop it properly by doing your work and finding that momentum and proper use of the body; I can show you my attainment, but you have to have your own atttainment - find it in yourself to move well and follow the guiding principles.

In forums, you can only talk about them, but in your school you can develop them.

If you can find me someone that can go FULL BORE for even 3 minutes, please let me know, I know a few olympic coaches that would love to meet him or her !!

Great last part Robert, very well said.
LOL @ the "pole" training :D

SimonM

11-03-2008, 09:32 AM

I agree...but some teachers also are just selfish and greedy holding back information fearing their students will surpass him.That's why you always hear the student say my teacher is twice as good as me and his teacher is even better,so that tell me either two things.either the students is not practice or the teacher is with holding information.

Or... third possibilty: Teacher has just been doing it for a lot longer and hasn't gotten to a point where age has stripped a lifetime of experience of it's teeth.

TenTigers

11-03-2008, 10:10 AM

Although there are selfish teachers who hold back, there are also teachers who hold back due to the nature of the student, and there are-and this seems to be IME, a large amount of students who "felt they desrved" such-and-such, and that the teacher was holding back. Too many spoiled brats, who have not put in the time, yet feel that they can dictate to the teacher.
The first grader does not give advice to the principal of the school on how the curriculum should be taught.

anerlich

11-03-2008, 03:00 PM

this seems to be IME, a large amount of students who "felt they desrved" such-and-such, and that the teacher was holding back. Too many spoiled brats, who have not put in the time, yet feel that they can dictate to the teacher.

You've reminded me of three students at a school I attended in the early 1980s who actually took the teacher to Consumer Affairs, asserting that his merciless holding back of the good stuff constituted a breach of the membership contract.

They failed. Strange days.

That said, the teacher was a consummate manipulator who was forever hinting at secret techniques and training methods that the student body weren't quite ready for. He used to start teaching something and then would suddenly stop if a student flubbed something or transgressed in some other way, thus gaining the ire of all.

His business eventually failed and school closed, but that was due to his own mismanagement (guys with messiah complexes tend to be light on detail) and the conflagration of burned bridges he left behind him.

Shadow_warrior8

11-04-2008, 11:10 AM

Something I borrowed from Tokyo Drift, which seems appropriate

But i realise now, outsider or insider, it doesn't really matter. All that matters is knowing what you really want....and going after it.

TenTigers

11-04-2008, 11:41 AM

anerlich's story contained both Messiah complex,carrot dangling teacher, as well as spoiled brat student with feelings of entitlement. Some people are just meant for each other.:rolleyes:

bennyvt

11-05-2008, 04:34 AM

this also goes with the closed door stuff. My teacher says a closed door student is someone allowed in the sifu's private bedroom. Some say it is if you start after the sifu has stopped teaching properly, or its his disciple. I always took it as more of a goffer thing. As in go for this and go for that. As i was for bill and he was for barry. More being a friend and spending more time in which you end up learning more for as bill used to say when i thought i made some thing up, i told you that fifty times. Hanging around you hear how other ways of thinking about things. But bill says he taught me to teach so he spent more time them the people that just paid the money .

couch

11-05-2008, 06:13 AM

this also goes with the closed door stuff. My teacher says a closed door student is someone allowed in the sifu's private bedroom.

Eek! My training partners will never be allowed in my bedroom! Sorry boys!

Some say it is if you start after the sifu has stopped teaching properly, or its his disciple. I always took it as more of a goffer thing. As in go for this and go for that. As i was for bill and he was for barry. More being a friend and spending more time in which you end up learning more for as bill used to say when i thought i made some thing up, i told you that fifty times. Hanging around you hear how other ways of thinking about things. But bill says he taught me to teach so he spent more time them the people that just paid the money .

My training partners ARE my friends. How can I humble myself and ask them to HELP me with something I'm working on if I'm the Great Grandmaster of Almightiness - the one who knows it all?

Generally, people have this "movie/popular culture" way of looking at Sifu/Student relationships but I try to demolish that barrier and just be real with people. I tell them my MA education wasn't always the best but I've been working my butt off (and continue to do so) to put some pieces back together. I tell them who I look up to and where I think my MA needs to go. Then I show some stuff and ask for help.

I have no problems asking my training partners what they think (for an example) a technique is for. Or how they would deal with something. We've all got pieces and different perspectives.

bennyvt

11-05-2008, 06:33 AM

i feel its a bit different student to student then teacher to student. Bill would start by giving people extra exercises and those that did them, trained hard and helped others he would spend more time on them. We don't call them sifu just there names. But in any school there are the close nit guys and the guys that just say to be there and in through the motions. But isnt there a grand master of almightyness already. I went a a seminar that he taught and he he walked up to you, you had to move. Couldn look at him directly or ask him things. But to be fair i asked stuff and he was happy that i did. I think its a case me students needing to note them up the ladder so they can be grand master and such.

sanjuro_ronin

11-05-2008, 06:45 AM

In the end, in terms of function and practicallity, common sense tells us that closed door training is inferior to open training because of lack of exposure to other systems of combat, the whole "know your enemy" thing.
So one wonders, if and how these "closed" systems address this crucial issue.

bennyvt

11-05-2008, 07:53 AM

my point is that the only difference is how much time is put into each student. Being a closed door student doesn't mean that you cant train with other people or that you only do private lessons (pretty useless in chi sao when u want to train with different types of build etc) more about your relation ship with your teacher. If they like you and you show you will try and work hard they will generally spend more time. Not teach you more but you hear stuff 100 times and discuss things more. Like me and bill used to in drinking and we would end up talking vt all night. And i learnt things that just dont come up in class. Or you just do the little things more cause you are there all the time. Like when i went to hong kong one guy was having trouble cause cliff's guys were doing heaps me hoon sao's and said 'we need to do there more in class' i said we do it all the time but hes not there.

Ultimatewingchun

11-05-2008, 08:35 AM

The entire "closed door" student business...or "special student"....or "in-door student"...etc.

...is in my opinon the single biggest reason why CMA in general (including wing chun) is on the downswing in 2008. By trying to keep the "best" things secret means that very few people ever learn the advanced material and fewer still actually pressure test it to the point where the principles, strategies, and techniques get scrutinzed adequately...

meaning...OPENLY...and therefore against skilled fighters from other systems in an atmosphere wherein many people get to see what works and what doesn't - thereby increasing the odds that the systems in question evolve and get better over time.

Just look at mma events in 1993-94-95 and compare them to what's going on today - the jump in skill levels has been emormous.

chusauli

11-05-2008, 10:37 AM

I agree with Victor here 100%.

Its hard enough to practice without all the secrecy nonsense.

To test the martial arts is to advance their study and refine them. Every generation has to succeed in making it alive for the environment that they are in.

In HK during the '50's and '60's it was more against other Southern Fist.

Later as the arts came here it was important to make work against Karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Boxing.

Now its BJJ and MMA.

What good is advanced forms or new forms if you can't make the basic tools work?

sanjuro_ronin

11-05-2008, 11:36 AM

There is another issue.
If there are no secrets and the close door training is "not where its at", what do we have left?
Hard work and training.
See, if there are no secrets then, what your Sifu can do means ZERO, its all about what you can do.
EX:
Training boxing under a coach with a devastating left hook.
Will it make your left hook better?
No, your left hook will be a left hook, and it will be as good as YOU make it.
Why?
Because there is no secret way to throw a "better" left hook, your coach with his uber-deadly left hook doesn't have some ancient secret that makes it so deadly, he just has an awesome left hook, period.
Will you ever get a left hook as good as his?
Maybe, maybe not, depends how much you put into it and even then, ther eare no guarantees.
All the people Foreman trained, do they have his left hook?
Nope.

So you see, its NOT about what your Sifu can do, matter of fact, its the furthest thing from it, it's all about what YOU CAN DO.

And all the private training and secret stuff in the world will never change that.

The limit is what YOU set it at.

LSWCTN1

11-05-2008, 04:05 PM

I've been around the combative systems for 30 years now and I can say with certainty that these are invariably the words of someone who is very inexperienced at fighting in any form.

i'm not going to go into too much detail with this reply - you will either believe me or you wont, i honestly dont give a monkeys!

i have seen in previous posts that you class yourself a veteran of 300+ (if my memory serves me correct) 'fights' - i will never, and never hope to, achieve anything like this level of combat experience. but i want to point out a few things

by 'kicking you in the balls' i didnt actually mean specifically kicking your testicles as such - just the notion that this is seen as 'unsportsmanlike' and is not something i would ever discount. HOWEVER having experienced more than my fair share of street fights (whether being dragged in against supposedly skilled MArtists or just brawlers) i do know that kicking someone in the groin rarely works unless you are in a crowd of people fighting. IME the reason is that with people around you fighting or just getting in the way a proper street fight will be broken up repeatedly. maybe it is the adrenaline but the pain from a groin shot will only come in a momentary break from fighting - argue about this all you want but this IS what happens.

secondly - i should imagine i have seen, or experienced just as many really violent encounters in my last 5 or 6 years as you have in the same time frame. i dont mean matches with rules, i mean some fella in a bar with a bottle in his hand and his mates behind him trying to get to your mate because he happened to look in his direction

the area i live is relatively small, but notorious locally for mischief - have a look at the last three digits of my username to check this information out if you have any doubt.

its not a personal attack but when someone says 'these are the words of someone with no experience' what i take that to mean is 'your words are bullsh!t, as such your opinion cannot be taken seriously' its a bit unfair - my wing chun is still very young, especially when compared to what i want it to be, but i have had enough experience to learn what tends to work and what tends not too

all the best

David

sanjuro_ronin

11-06-2008, 05:17 AM

i'm not going to go into too much detail with this reply - you will either believe me or you wont, i honestly dont give a monkeys!

i have seen in previous posts that you class yourself a veteran of 300+ (if my memory serves me correct) 'fights' - i will never, and never hope to, achieve anything like this level of combat experience. but i want to point out a few things

by 'kicking you in the balls' i didnt actually mean specifically kicking your testicles as such - just the notion that this is seen as 'unsportsmanlike' and is not something i would ever discount. HOWEVER having experienced more than my fair share of street fights (whether being dragged in against supposedly skilled MArtists or just brawlers) i do know that kicking someone in the groin rarely works unless you are in a crowd of people fighting. IME the reason is that with people around you fighting or just getting in the way a proper street fight will be broken up repeatedly. maybe it is the adrenaline but the pain from a groin shot will only come in a momentary break from fighting - argue about this all you want but this IS what happens.

secondly - i should imagine i have seen, or experienced just as many really violent encounters in my last 5 or 6 years as you have in the same time frame. i dont mean matches with rules, i mean some fella in a bar with a bottle in his hand and his mates behind him trying to get to your mate because he happened to look in his direction

the area i live is relatively small, but notorious locally for mischief - have a look at the last three digits of my username to check this information out if you have any doubt.

its not a personal attack but when someone says 'these are the words of someone with no experience' what i take that to mean is 'your words are bullsh!t, as such your opinion cannot be taken seriously' its a bit unfair - my wing chun is still very young, especially when compared to what i want it to be, but i have had enough experience to learn what tends to work and what tends not too

all the best

David

I think that most of us read your original post and saw the old "kick in he groin and chop the neck" as humor.
KF tends to like calling people on what he preceives as their lack of fighting experience.
He's been around the block a few times in terms of combat sports, he is older than Methusela by the way :)
I think he jumps the gun more often than he should, but that's part of his charm.

Knifefighter

11-06-2008, 03:09 PM

its not a personal attack but when someone says 'these are the words of someone with no experience' what i take that to mean is 'your words are bullsh!t, as such your opinion cannot be taken seriously' its a bit unfair - my wing chun is still very young, especially when compared to what i want it to be, but i have had enough experience to learn what tends to work and what tends not too

Yes, I believe your words are bullsh!t. People who have actually fought know that being "a dirty little cheat who will kick you in the knackers" gives you no extra advantage because just about everyone will do that anyway (not to mention biting and using weapons)... and I won't even go into the bullsh!t about the cluelessness of your deadly neck strikes.

LSWCTN1

11-07-2008, 05:19 PM

Yes, I believe your words are bullsh!t. People who have actually fought know that being "a dirty little cheat who will kick you in the knackers" gives you no extra advantage because just about everyone will do that anyway (not to mention biting and using weapons)... and I won't even go into the bullsh!t about the cluelessness of your deadly neck strikes.

you're such a tool!

you highlighted part of my post - but evidently failed to read the parts above it! plus if it ' gives you no extra advantage because just about everyone will do that anyway' then, by your definition, not doing it puts you at a disadvantage! therefore rendering your original argument pointless from the sake of the truth, but perhaps serving a point of simply being a tw@

i never once mentioned 'deadly neck strikes' either - i thought you did bjj? does that not also rely heavily on cutting off the blood and/or oxygen to the brain by choking somebody unconscious? some effect, different methods of getting there....

Phil Redmond

11-07-2008, 06:33 PM

you're such a tool!....
Actually he's a nice guy, (he just likes getting you guys riled up) :)
He has competed in cage fights. Some even bareknuckled from what I've seen in his videos. His opinions are based on his having to deal with resisting opponents. I have my opinions based on my experiences against resisting opponents. My way in different from his as are his from mine. Which one is right????

TenTigers

11-07-2008, 07:44 PM

His opinions are based on his having to deal with resisting opponents. I have my opinions based on my experiences against resisting opponents. My way in different from his as are his from mine. Which one is right????

all opponents are different.
Circumstances are different.
Fighting someone who is drunk in a bar is different than fighting someone who is mugging you, which is still different than fighting an enraged psych patient. Alocohol induced attackers fight different than heroin induced attackers, who fight different than crank induced attackers. Big guys fight different than small guys. Confident guys fight different than scared guys. Wrestlers fight different than boxers, who fight different than scrappers, who fight different than dojo-trained karateka.
-and every combination of the above.
-and you are different than Knifefighter
-Ten thousand things.

Knifefighter

11-09-2008, 01:12 PM

the area i live is relatively small, but notorious locally for mischief - have a look at the last three digits of my username to check this information out if you have any doubt.
Based on your posts, I believe that probably stands for cartoon network.

LSWCTN1

11-09-2008, 03:48 PM

Based on your posts, I believe that probably stands for cartoon network.

At least you have a sense of humour! lol!

bennyvt

11-10-2008, 04:00 AM

I think it mainly comes down to, it sounds better if you say that your the only one that learnt it, like stepping. Most people didnt train enough to get to learn it. Or simply didnt ask enough questions to understand it properly.
I went to a seminar from a person (being nice I wont give him a name). He said that he was doing stepping and yip man walked up and said he was doing it wrong. Then he practiced for ten years and he finally worked out how to do it. Now I would have said," So how do you do it right." I think thats what made wong shun leung so good. He would say "heh why doesnt it work and how do you do it properly". Like the story with the garn sao and how he got hit so went to yip man and "nicely" asked why the gun sao didnt work and Yip man showed him the garn for the lower attacks. Which then got added back into the system.
Also the way Yip man taught seems to have given the impressioon that you were learning something different. There are many stories where people have asked the same question and been given a different answer. Now when you understand VT you see that it could have been hundreds of answers to the same question depending on the circumstances but people are like "No he taught me different so I must have learnt the "GOOD STUFF";)
I agree that is is just an excuse to not train hard. As my teacher always says" the only secret to Ving Tsun is practice."

clam61

11-20-2008, 04:15 PM

this is because before the advent of the gun, if you were a gung fu master you were pretty much unstoppable, unless there was an army of 20 guys willing to sacrifice themselves by dogpiling on top of you.

this is the reason for the culture of secrecy

You know I never heard of this stuff until I started studying Chinese Martial Arts.
Their were no secret wrestling moves, no secret boxing moves, no secret western fencing steps and nothing I ran across in Korean Arts!
My first Kung Fu instructor was Robert Smith, and he said so many intersting arts were taken to the grave, some from the boxer rebellion and some just not told.
Since thenI have studied some philipino and Malaysian arts and the seem to keep things in villages and families as well.
Just curious, is it a cultural phenomina.
It's a shame a lot of people get hurt w/ this stuff.
Cheers
Don :confused:

anerlich

11-20-2008, 07:21 PM

Someone's been watching too many movies.

clam61

11-20-2008, 08:12 PM

ur a certified idiot and you don't know what you're talking about.

Someone's been watching too many movies.

anerlich

11-20-2008, 08:35 PM

ur a certified idiot and you don't know what you're talking about.

Opinions vary.

clam61

11-22-2008, 12:01 AM

well just imagine a time where there are no guns, and there are no telephones, and no cars for organized law enforcement to come detain and battle criminals. on top of that imagine a time where villages are few and far between in the country side.

if you were a skilled fighter you would easily be able to rob people, act as some type of bandit, or basically coerce people to do things through force.

for this reason, gung fu masters who believed themselves to possess great power (despite whether you think they did or not, they did), were reluctant to give this power to anybody.

this is why they often had long and enduring tests of character and patience before they would teach you all they knew

Opinions vary.

Hendrik

11-23-2008, 08:25 AM

There is no secret but private means personal coaching where proper concept/direction, lots of issues are being pointing out, and progress is certain on the assumption one has a teacher who really know every details of the art.

If

Private means taking the Journey lead closely by the teacher.

then

Public means on your own.

So, what is those Kuen Kuit stuffs are about?
Simply the key points/location needs to be coach... however that also subject to the teacher's kung fu. Otherwise, it is just a few chinese phrase that worth nothing in the realm of action.

KPM

11-23-2008, 04:47 PM

Private means taking the Journey lead closely by the teacher.

then

Public means on your own.

I think you are wrong. A commercial "public" school can still have group classes lead by a knowledgeable instructor that gives personal attention to each student. The students aren't "on their own" at all. Granted, "private" instruction should mean that the student gets much more one-on-one personal attention than he would in a "public" class and is therefore a better learning experience. But to say that a "public" student is "on their own" is just not accurate.

Hendrik

11-23-2008, 05:35 PM

I think you are wrong.

A commercial "public" school can still have group classes lead by a knowledgeable instructor that gives personal attention to each student.

The students aren't "on their own" at all.

Granted, "private" instruction should mean that the student gets much more one-on-one personal attention than he would in a "public" class and is therefore a better learning experience.

But to say that a "public" student is "on their own" is just not accurate.

1, a conclusion of " I think you are wrong" is no needed. For life is not a right wrong opera.

2, You are right "public" student is not "on thier own" in a sense of learning the set the form....etc. and one can be a super genious to know the set and the art just be learning the form. But, in my personal experience that is very very very rare. and even if this happen. The coach might right away make him a private student to coach him or kick him out of the school because he is a smart ass.

3, It is evidentally that in Chinese Culture, those who is the private student or inner room students get the transmission or insight of the art more then the one who is just a public student. there certainly cases that some private student doesnt have a clue of the art because they are just there for reason other then learning the art.

Your experience might be different but what I have seen in the field of Chinese Martial art, Qigong, Zen Buddhism.....etc that is the case. Your's experience might be different compare to mine and that is ok.

A honest truth is that the Process are usually not reveal to the public students.

For example,

walk into a Taiji Class.

I use Taiji for example here because TaiJi is popular, and have lots of public students,

thier theory and classical writing has been publised and even translate to other languages......etc. everything needs to be known is out there.

Now, ask those in the class on :

how is Qi being evoke how is the process? (this is thier basic basic if they dont know they are just dancing)

See for yourself how many percent will be able to answer that question and how many percent be able to do it?

But if you ask an inner student of some great master, they can do the above with ease because that is thier everyday bread and butter.

Just some personal experience

Hendrik

11-23-2008, 06:08 PM

Robert,

The recently locked thread of public and private versions of an art got me thinking. Is there a private version of striking an opponent? Or a public version of striking an opponent? Is there a public vs. a private way of submission? :) ----

There is no private version of striking an opponent but there is public version of purposely passing mis understanding of what is striking.

Private vs. Public versions is like teaching for money, but not really teaching... ----

True, Private Vs public are some marketing gimmic to make money for some sifus.

However, similar to learning music, if one wants the best one also have to pay for the best private coaching.

Thus, I see it in the way that Private and Public is not the issue it is the issue of some one taking advantage of others.

IE: I have even seen in a SEA country that those who goes to the public high school needs to pay for and arrange private tutoring with the teacher of that subject, otherwise they will not passe the exam of that subject.

So, IMHO, public and private means something and in today's unhealty enviroment, public and private means other thing.

BruiserBrody

11-23-2008, 06:53 PM

There are a million secrets in boxing when it comes to teaching. Learning the basic offense and defense is not a complete revelation of the art. Many trainers have their own unique training methods and insights they are not forthcoming with.

KPM

11-24-2008, 02:07 PM

1, a conclusion of " I think you are wrong" is no needed. For life is not a right wrong opera.

---Ok. Then let me restate it. I think your statement is inaccurate. Being a "public student" does not equate to being "on your own."

2, You are right "public" student is not "on thier own" in a sense of learning the set the form....etc. and one can be a super genious to know the set and the art just be learning the form. But, in my personal experience that is very very very rare. and even if this happen. The coach might right away make him a private student to coach him or kick him out of the school because he is a smart ass.

---Then it sounds like what you meant to say was that a "public" student may miss some of the more subtle aspects of the art and may not reach the same depth of understanding compared to a "private" student. That I can agree with. But sometimes that idea also translates to keeping the "secrets" for the "inner door" students. And that's just unfair to the "public" students. But the whole discussion about "secrets" and how they harm TCMAs in general has already been done.

Hendrik

11-24-2008, 03:50 PM

---Then it sounds like what you meant to say was that a "public" student may miss some of the more subtle aspects of the art and may not reach the same depth of understanding compared to a "private" student. That I can agree with.

But sometimes that idea also translates to keeping the "secrets" for the "inner door" students.

And that's just unfair to the "public" students. But the whole discussion about "secrets" and how they harm TCMAs in general has already been done. ------------

there are occation on purposely keeping the secrets within the inner students. Similar to keeping scerets within a tribe, a family, a country...

Just human nature based on different level of human maturity.

We like the reality or not, it is there.

What is fair? in the reality no one has to obligate to give others everyting.
And on the otherside it also could be argue the other ways.

That is reality.

t_niehoff

11-25-2008, 12:16 PM

In my view, there are "secrets" in the MAs. There are things, both in terms of training and application, that various people do that they don't - for whatever the reason - want to share. Does it really matter? No. What matters is performance, your ability to do/use whatever it is. It's not the "trick" but how well you can do it that really matters.

As far as the public/private version regular/inner student questions, I see it as a matter of honesty. Personally I think such distinctions are unethical. As a teacher, you have an ethical obligation to provide your student/trainee with the very best and complete instruction you can. To do otherwise is to mislead and cheat them. And I don't care how things were done in the past -- we're not living in the past and functioning under their norms.

Sihing73

11-25-2008, 01:53 PM

As far as the public/private version regular/inner student questions, I see it as a matter of honesty. Personally I think such distinctions are unethical. As a teacher, you have an ethical obligation to provide your student/trainee with the very best and complete instruction you can. To do otherwise is to mislead and cheat them. And I don't care how things were done in the past -- we're not living in the past and functioning under their norms.

Hello,

Obviously they missed this concept in much of our public school system :)

I queston why one would not keep certain things back from the common student though, if such exists. Often it is not the technique but some small variance which can make a difference. For example a karate straight punch can be improved by pointing the elbow downward although this is not often taught openly. IMHO, if I have a student or a member of my family who is particularily close to me I may spend more time explaining things to them and thus give them the benefit of any experience I may have. As for the common student, many are just there to learn something and paying dues, there should be a distinction between those just going through the motions and those who opt for more of a way of life.

Now most "secrets" are just a greater understanding of the mechanics, not some magical pill to be swallowed.

Hendrik

11-25-2008, 02:24 PM

Hello,

Obviously they missed this concept in much of our public school system :)

I queston why one would not keep certain things back from the common student though, if such exists. Often it is not the technique but some small variance which can make a difference. For example a karate straight punch can be improved by pointing the elbow downward although this is not often taught openly. IMHO, if I have a student or a member of my family who is particularily close to me I may spend more time explaining things to them and thus give them the benefit of any experience I may have. As for the common student, many are just there to learn something and paying dues, there should be a distinction between those just going through the motions and those who opt for more of a way of life.

Now most "secrets" are just a greater understanding of the mechanics, not some magical pill to be swallowed.

Excellent point.

There is no magical pill eventhough there is miracle effect after a continous training coaching by a greater understanding of the different levels of mechanics.

t_niehoff

11-27-2008, 06:13 AM

As for the common student, many are just there to learn something and paying dues, there should be a distinction between those just going through the motions and those who opt for more of a way of life.

The"common student" isn't "just there" to learn -- he's there to learn. And a teacher has an ethical obligation to help them the best that they can. To withhold something because you believe the student is "unworthy" is dishonest IMO. If you went to a golf pro and paid for instruction how would you feel that the pro withheld details, wasn't really interested in your development, etc. because you were a mere "common student", someone "just there" to learn and didn't see golf as more a "way of life"?

Seriously, this attitide is right out of a bad kung fu movie. Anyone holding such a view should be ashamed of themselves.

Sihing73

11-27-2008, 07:07 AM

The"common student" isn't "just there" to learn -- he's there to learn. And a teacher has an ethical obligation to help them the best that they can. To withhold something because you believe the student is "unworthy" is dishonest IMO. If you went to a golf pro and paid for instruction how would you feel that the pro withheld details, wasn't really interested in your development, etc. because you were a mere "common student", someone "just there" to learn and didn't see golf as more a "way of life"?

Seriously, this attitide is right out of a bad kung fu movie. Anyone holding such a view should be ashamed of themselves.

Hi T,

I expected as much from you and of course I am ashamed of myself ;) not.

I also find your continuation to use sports like "golf" as comparisions to WC amusing. If that is all you consider WC to be, a game, then I feel that is your loss. While many of your ideas can be thought provoking, no ones views, my own included are written in stone or all inclusive. Do you seriously believe that everyone who goes to a "golf pro" and pays the same fee gets the same instruction?

To continue spouting ones views as gospel and deriding the views of those not in line with ones own can also be found in many "bad kung fu movies". :D

Sorry, but there is always a distinction in students. Consider this, in higher learning will a teacher not spend additional time with a deserving student that shows extra interest? Or do you truly believe that all students in a class receive the same "instruction" Why then would martial arts be any different. While the same material may be presented to all, the teacher will often spend extra time or give more encouragement to some students who have shown real interest.

t_niehoff

11-27-2008, 09:31 AM

Hi T,

I expected as much from you and of course I am ashamed of myself ;) not.

I also find your continuation to use sports like "golf" as comparisions to WC amusing. If that is all you consider WC to be, a game, then I feel that is your loss.

It's not that WCK is a game, just that it is an activity no more "special" than anything else. I chose golf for a reason -- it is one activity that has more obsessive participants than just about any other (expensive clubs, exclusive golf communities complete with McMansions, golf holidays, etc.).

WCK is not a religion, it is not a "way of life", it is like boxing, like judo, like wrestling, etc. JUST a martial art. That you and others try to give it some exalted status is not my loss, it is your problem.

While many of your ideas can be thought provoking, no ones views, my own included are written in stone or all inclusive. Do you seriously believe that everyone who goes to a "golf pro" and pays the same fee gets the same instruction?

Of course not, some instructors are better than others, instruction will depend on the level of the one seeking instruction, etc. But my point is, that good instructors don't withhold instruction because they feel someone is more worthy than someone else. That is dishonest. It is cheating the one paying you for instruction. And it says a lot about the teacher -- it says they are dishonest. How could a student ever trust someone like that? How would you ever know if he was giving you the "real instruction"?

Certainly someone who goes to open classes won't get the level of instruction as someone taking private lessons. But that isn't the fault of the instructor (who gives everyone the best info/instruction he can), it has to do with the amount of time the instructor can spend with each individual.

To continue spouting ones views as gospel and deriding the views of those not in line with ones own can also be found in many "bad kung fu movies". :D

It's not gospel, it is just common sense. If you pay someone money to teach you, you expect to be taught properly, and that would include being taught to the best of the ability of the instructor. Or do you think people go to instructors expecting something else?

Sorry, but there is always a distinction in students. Consider this, in higher learning will a teacher not spend additional time with a deserving student that shows extra interest? Or do you truly believe that all students in a class receive the same "instruction" Why then would martial arts be any different. While the same material may be presented to all, the teacher will often spend extra time or give more encouragement to some students who have shown real interest.

You are changing the discussion. It is not about spending more time with someone, the issue is about not providing the very best instruction you can to everyone you teach and actually withholding things from "common students".

And btw, your argument that this might happen in other areas (not that I agree with your example) is a poor justification -- if others behave unethically does that then make it OK?

Sihing73

11-27-2008, 12:47 PM

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;898106]WCK is not a religion, it is not a "way of life", it is like boxing, like judo, like wrestling, etc. JUST a martial art. That you and others try to give it some exalted status is not my loss, it is your problem.QUOTE]

Hi T,

You know what they say about making assumptions :D I don't think you know for sure anything about my views on WC. I certainly do not make it a "religion" nor is it a "way of life". It is however, or can be, a piece of the pie though ;)

Also, there are levels in instruction just as there are grade levels in school. Perhaps the common student, if such there is, gets what they are ready for at that time while the special students are ready for more.

An instructor who "teaches" by rote is IMHO a poor teacher. IMO a true instructor acts as a guide and points the way for a student to progress. No two will be the same so having a cookie cutter approach will not work across the board.

FWIW, I enjoy playing Devils advocate if for no other reason to invoke thought. Plus it is interesting and enlightening to view the response some have when one challenges their opinions. Which by they way is not the same as "common sense". Unless you feel that those who do not agree are the ones lacking "common sense". :rolleyes: