Sad but true

[Ray Pina]

After 30 years of training and thinking about martial arts it is sad to say there are maybe 5 different types of stand up techniques that I own, am completely calm and confident in using. Guess that's better than nothing, but that's not a lot for so many hours training.

I can say, I am getting a lot more techniques from BJJ. Simply because I can use them 3 days week, full resistance, week in and week out. Armbars, Americanas, Kimoras, a handful of chokes and a few leg locks. I'm pulling these off regularly now.

I miss teaching my students because I could train safe drills with boxing gloves and headgear the way I wanted to. The sharpest my hands were were right before I moved down here. Maybe it's time to get a few students.
Ray

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is so sad about it Ray?

[MasterKiller]

After 30 years of training and thinking about martial arts it is sad to say there are maybe 5 different types of stand up techniques that I own, am completely calm and confident in using. Guess that's better than nothing, but that's not a lot for so many hours training.

I think if you dig a little deeper, you will see you have many more. Just in the clinch alone, you can have many high-percentage techniques. You have underhooks, overhooks, steering, knees, spurs (striking with the heels), shoulder strikes, pummeling, neck clinching, etc...not to mention all the counters.

Sure, striking is basic compared to grappling. But striking isn't the only component of stand-up fighting.

Hell, I have at least 20 different throws and takedowns that I try to use.

[Golden Arms]

Wow, striking is basic compared to grappling? That is an interesting point of view at least.

[SimonM]

It's kind of true.

[MasterKiller]

Wow, striking is basic compared to grappling? That is an interesting point of view at least.

Realistic striking is basic compared to grappling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Basic striking is basic compared to basic grappling.
Advanced striking is something different.
Grappling is much more natural for almost anyone than striking is.
Its a lot easier to be a functional grappler than a functional striker.

[TenTigers]

"Don't fear the man who knows a thousand teachniques,
rather, fear the man who knows one technique,
and practiced it a thousand times"

ok, so in your case, 5.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Don't fear the man who knows a thousand teachniques,
rather, fear the man who knows one technique,
and practiced it a thousand times"

ok, so in your case, 5.

Tyson "only" had a left hook, right uppercut and an overhand right...;)

[Golden Arms]

Maybe what is realistic for you.

The striking game has more variables, less control over the opponent, and is more punishing of mistakes than grappling in my book. I count striking to include long range (punches and kicks), short range (hooks, elbows, knees, etc.), clinching to throw, clinching to strike from, footwork for closing, evasion, sweeps, etc.

If that is how you guys see it though, that is fine by me. I am also a fan of grappling.

Agreed, Ronin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe what is realistic for you.

The striking game has more variables, less control over the opponent, and is more punishing of mistakes than grappling in my book. I count striking to include long range (punches and kicks), short range (hooks, elbows, knees, etc.), clinching to throw, clinching to strike from, footwork for closing, evasion, sweeps, etc.

If that is how you guys see it though, that is fine by me. I am also a fan of grappling.

Agreed, Ronin.

Striking also happens at a much faster pace with less room for errors.
Never the less, at its core, the principles of striking are more basic than those of grappling.

[SimonM]

and is more punishing of mistakes than grappling in my book.

WHAT?!?!??!?!?!??

Have you done much submission wrestling Golden Arms?

[sanjuro_ronin]

WHAT?!?!??!?!?!??

Have you done much submission wrestling Golden Arms?

Context Bro, you make a mistake in striking you get knocked out, in grappling you get to tap.
Context.

[Golden Arms]

Like I said, I am ok with differing opinions. There is a reason that when a human is being hit, they try to clinch instinctively, and not the other way around.

[SimonM]

Context Bro, you make a mistake in striking you get knocked out, in grappling you get to tap.
Context.

I've been nearly knocked out before... it didn't hurt nearly as much as the worst tap-out I ever had... nor did it require nearly as much rehabilitation time. I'm not saying a knockout is pleasant. I'm just saying that, especially at sub-pro levels a mistake in wrestling is more likely to be something that punishes you long-term.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've been nearly knocked out before... it didn't hurt nearly as much as the worst tap-out I ever had... nor did it require nearly as much rehabilitation time.

I will take a choke out over a KO anytime.
In grappling I have had a dislocated shoulder, sprained elbow, torn ankle and some dislocated fingers and toes.
I would take any of them over spitting up blood and not breathing from broken ribs( 3) or ****ing blood from a bruised kidney, not to mention the nice headaches that go with a concussion...

[SimonM]

Although I would agree that some of the things you mentioned would suck hardcore I've personally never experienced them post-boxing. I have however experienced most of the wrestling related injuries you mentioned at one time or another.... except for the elbow. And instead of a dislocated shoulder it was the connective tissue that connects my shoulder to my torso at the front getting torn... worst injury I have ever had. Took a month to recover full use of my left arm and another 15 days before I was able to use it properly in a fight.

[David Jamieson]

5 or 6 things is plenty.

i got may 2 or 3 solid things that i can count on. so you got me by 2 and you are also more recently active than me.

[Ray Pina]

From my experience, you can be in a room of 20 grapplers, and they'll all be gung ho and game to roll to submission. The moment the vibe changes to wrapping up the hands and getting into the ring, you're lucky if three hang around.

A lot of people aren't comfortable with cracking someone good. Nobody wants to get hit.

I love BJJ. It is a pleasure to train. I've always loved training "stand up" in my karate and later Kung Fu days. Now it is a chore I have to do because I'm fighting. I aint dancing around with form. Tonight I was kicked in my left leg 20 times at about 65% to 70% power. Took the same number of punches to the gut, as part of the training.

Shield the attack, change levels, hit. 10 times with each training partner.
Shield the attach, kick the leg. 10 times with each training partner.

This sucks. It's much more fun to learn a cool leg bar.

I will say I've been injured more grappling. But their is more fear to deal with when striking.

[TenTigers]

. But their is more fear to deal with when striking.
'that is a very honest and truthful statement. It takes alot of personal courage to be able to admit this.
:cool:

[Kansuke]

Context Bro, you make a mistake in striking you get knocked out.




No, you get hit. Strikers often fall into the trap of believing that everytime someone gets hit it equals a knockout. Not you personally, just a general observation.

[Kansuke]

From my experience, you can be in a room of 20 grapplers, and they'll all be gung ho and game to roll to submission. The moment the vibe changes to wrapping up the hands and getting into the ring, you're lucky if three hang around.
.



I don't know what sort of grapplers you are talking about but that's a bit extreme. The great majority of grapplers I have ever known would (have) jump at the chance to throw on the gloves and hop in the ring - especially if they had no idea what they were doing. However, I take the more general point that grapplers might not be so comfortable strking, but on the other hand, how many strikers in the room of 20 would find something else to do if they had to switch to being dumped on their heads and/or chocked unconscious working in a context they are not so familiar with?

Generalized fear is usually about the unknown. That is always going to be relative.

[David Jamieson]

No, you get hit. Strikers often fall into the trap of believing that every time someone gets hit it equals a knockout. Not you personally, just a general observation.


actually, it's dreamers who fantasize that every time they hit someone they'll score a knockout. and when the dude turns his head back and he looks even more pizzed, that's about when that fantasy collapses in a heap on the ground. :p

[Ray Pina]

There are many amazing technique and variations, but the first step entries are comparatively few. Without mastering them, the others are useless.

www.imperialtao.com

This is what I'm talking about. Round one of my last fight, I won it. I was able to get in, land some strikes and get out, or get clinched. Landed some kicks.

Round two he figured out I was jamming him, and just waited for me to come in and give me the business with his heavy right. And he did. Repeatedly.

I'm now working on boxing, so that's a different look than my normal strong right lead. But I had no business bringing it out too soon. I need to work on changing levels.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, you get hit. Strikers often fall into the trap of believing that everytime someone gets hit it equals a knockout. Not you personally, just a general observation.

You have to take the context of the whole post...

[MasterKiller]

I don't know what sort of grapplers you are talking about but that's a bit extreme. The great majority of grapplers I have ever known would (have) jump at the chance to throw on the gloves and hop in the ring - especially if they had no idea what they were doing. However, I take the more general point that grapplers might not be so comfortable strking, but on the other hand, how many strikers in the room of 20 would find something else to do if they had to switch to being dumped on their heads and/or chocked unconscious working in a context they are not so familiar with?

Generalized fear is usually about the unknown. That is always going to be relative.
I think Ray is right on the money. Lots of "MMA" folks are just grapplers, only train grappling, and only want to grapple. Once the gloves come out, these guys disappear as fast as wushu players.

[Ray Pina]

I didn't want to get into it, but that is truly my experience. In fact, one of my pet peeves is BJJ guys referring to submission grappling matches as "fights."

I don't want to take anything away from them. Hell, my last BJJ tournament was as physically taxing as anything I've ever done, but it was not a fight. A fight is looking across at another man who is going to punch, kick and stomp you as hard as he can until you quit.

Too many BJJ guys cry when they accidentally catch an elbow. And they want you to say you're sorry, as if it's not their responsibility to protect themselves.

Obviously this is referring to the lower levels, the guys I spend most of my time with. White and blue belts.

I have some black belt friends at Renzo's who grew up with BJJ and they would beat me like a gong. They have the healthy bodies. They have the control of their center. And they know enough to cover up and pop you when the chance comes along.

[SimonM]

It actually annoys me when people appologize for accidents during training that I could have avoided if I had been paying better attention. The only thing more annoying is when somebody appologizes after they hit me in a wrestling or sparring session.

Seriously...

Don't appologize for punching me ever. :D

[Pork Chop]

I didn't want to get into it, but that is truly my experience. In fact, one of my pet peeves is BJJ guys referring to submission grappling matches as "fights."


This bothers me as well.
I hear it all the time from a good friend of mine who rolls bjj.
He gets all nervous about competing too, like it's a real fight.

I don't doubt joint injuries in grappling can be painful, but it's safe money to bet that there are more deaths each year (percentage-wise) in amateur boxing & kickboxing, than grappling.

Brain damage is serious business.
I've known a few folks that showed early signs of it as a result of constant hard sparring sessions leading up to their first or second fights.

There's also the factor of not having a tap to save yourself in striking sports.
Sure, you can not come out for the round, but if you wave your hand & say you don't want to get hit anymore mid-round; that doesn't necessarily mean the other guy's gonna stop. I've broken my arm sparring in boxing & I've also bruised my ribs on a botched takedown while grappling, the difference is I still had to finish out the round in the boxing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of the BJJ guys I know were/are practitioners of full contact striking systems so, I don't know of any that are the way you guys describe, but then again I don't know any BJJ rookies.

[Ray Pina]

I've broken my arm sparring in boxing & I've also bruised my ribs on a botched takedown while grappling, the difference is I still had to finish out the round in the boxing.

Exactly. Only a fighter understands. Once you go in there's no stopping until you get KOed or the ref raises someone's arm.... hasn't been mine yet (****ers!).

[Kansuke]

Because of my posture training I don't need to sprawl.






Well, that's an...interesting attitude...

[Kansuke]

I think Ray is right on the money. Lots of "MMA" folks are just grapplers, only train grappling, and only want to grapple. Once the gloves come out, these guys disappear as fast as wushu players.



Then they aren't really 'MMA' folks, are they?

[Kansuke]

I didn't want to get into it, but that is truly my experience. In fact, one of my pet peeves is BJJ guys referring to submission grappling matches as "fights."

I don't want to take anything away from them. Hell, my last BJJ tournament was as physically taxing as anything I've ever done, but it was not a fight. A fight is looking across at another man who is going to punch, kick and stomp you as hard as he can until you quit.



So, by that standard a boxing match is not a 'fight?'

[Pork Chop]

So, by that standard a boxing match is not a 'fight?'

well there are an average of 9 deaths a year from professional boxing matches - even at the highest levels (more if you live in Indonesia/SE Asia).
how many deaths are there a year at the highest levels of bjj competition?

In bjj, it's not too uncommon for people to actively seek out & roll with every competitor in their division the day of a competition.

In striking arts, while tournament style competition exists, the very nature of the physical abuse involved with competition (win or lose) excludes one from the amount of full-out experience a grappler can pick up, due to a much lower incidence of injury.

[MasterKiller]

So, by that standard a boxing match is not a 'fight?'

Hi, Uki !

[SimonM]

Jury is still out on that one. So far all Kansuke has done is ask baiting questions with no follow up. No sign of insane new-ageyness or poorly educated attempts at philosophy yet.

[Kansuke]

well there are an average of 9 deaths a year from professional boxing matches - even at the highest levels (more if you live in Indonesia/SE Asia).



Ok, so what is the minimum number of deaths per year before something can be considered a fight?

[banditshaw]

Jury is still out on that one. So far all Kansuke has done is ask baiting questions with no follow up. No sign of insane new-ageyness or poorly educated attempts at philosophy yet.

I think MK might of meant ''Hi Unk!''
:cool:

[Pork Chop]

Ok, so what is the minimum number of deaths per year before something can be considered a fight?

the goal of a grappling match is not injury, it's submission
the goal of a striking match (ie a real fight) is injury & concussion; though in some cases submission will serve.
what part of that is so hard to understand?

[Kansuke]

the goal of a grappling match is not injury, it's submission
the goal of a striking match (ie a real fight) is injury & concussion; though in some cases submission will serve.
what part of that is so hard to understand?



The part about how many deaths per year are required for something to be considered 'fighting.'

[taai gihk yahn]

I think MK might of meant ''Hi Unk!''
:cool:

oh yeah - posting style is dead on...

[Ray Pina]

This is exactly why I don't like Kung Fu.

It is true, that from my experience, most pure BJJers don't want to trade hands and feet. Why is this surprising? It is a grappling style? Most guys who train hands and feet every week in every mentionable kung fu style don't want to do the same either.... that's point No. 1.

Point No. 2 is that wrestling is not fighting.

Now we can go back and forth all day over whether boxing is fighting, MMA is fighting because of rules. Now we're getting crafty. Trying to use speech and semantics to try to make one school of thought feel better about themselves. That's not my thing. The points are clear.

if you're a wuss wushi player and it makes you feel better that BJJers don't want to fight either. Then stagnate and feel good about yourself. If you're out of whack and think going 13 rounds with a professional boxer isn't going to be a fight for survival, go ahead. Keep doing your form and thinking about eye pokes.

Type it all out. Talk about it. Find one of the many Kung Fu masters out there willing to make you a dynamo. Ya probably did already. Which is why this is all so low level to you.

[David Jamieson]

This is exactly why I don't like Kung Fu.

It is true, that from my experience, most pure BJJers don't want to trade hands and feet. Why is this surprising? It is a grappling style? Most guys who train hands and feet every week in every mentionable kung fu style don't want to do the same either.... that's point No. 1.

Point No. 2 is that wrestling is not fighting.

Now we can go back and forth all day over whether boxing is fighting, MMA is fighting because of rules. Now we're getting crafty. Trying to use speech and semantics to try to make one school of thought feel better about themselves. That's not my thing. The points are clear.

if you're a wuss wushi player and it makes you feel better that BJJers don't want to fight either. Then stagnate and feel good about yourself. If you're out of whack and think going 13 rounds with a professional boxer isn't going to be a fight for survival, go ahead. Keep doing your form and thinking about eye pokes.

Type it all out. Talk about it. Find one of the many Kung Fu masters out there willing to make you a dynamo. Ya probably did already. Which is why this is all so low level to you.

Ray, I think terminology is important. How can you not like Kungfu when you seek to attain it?

I think you could say, and more appropriately so that you don't care for the state or quality of traditional chinese martial arts because they are lacking in kungfu.

It's important to delineate. Otherwise you blanket all chinese martial arts, and frankly, some of them are just fine. Also, they are broad and varied and there needs to be context.

otherwise, youwind up looking like just a bitter person. It's like saying "I don't like all of russia because they all drink vodka and beat their spouses". This is a stereotype and Traditional Chinese Martial Arts has a particularly bad stereotype within the circles of people who train to fight and not to appear badasssss. lol :-)

[Kansuke]

Ok, so let's see - any kind of striking is 'fighting' and any kind of grappling is not. Is that it?

[taai gihk yahn]

Ok, so let's see - any kind of striking is 'fighting' and any kind of grappling is not. Is that it?

now yer learnin' (passes Kool Aid)

[lkfmdc]

I want credit for being the first to welcome unkowhatevertheheckitis back (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=895481&postcount=155)

PS: many, many, many BJJ people do not like getting hit and I would not characterize them as MMA people. MMA, by definition, includes striking. On the other hand, as I spend more and more time with wrestlers, they seem rather crazy and not afraid of anything (also, some of the stuff that is LEGAL is still rather nasty)

[Kansuke]

LOL, good points!

[taai gihk yahn]

I want credit for being the first to welcome unkowhatevertheheckitis back (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=895481&postcount=155)
yours is the superior intellect...


PS: many, many, many BJJ people do not like getting hit
I would agree with that in context of the current environment, with people knowing how to effectively strike against grapplers (meaning maintaining their structure / base instead of getting taken down w/out a clue how to deal w/it...)


On the other hand, as I spend more and more time with wrestlers, they seem rather crazy and not afraid of anything (also, some of the stuff that is LEGAL is still rather nasty)
yeah, I still remember the first time I played w/one of the NYU wrestling guys a bit - he threw an elbow in the middle of whatever it was he was doing, I was like "isn't that illegal?", he was like, "yeah, and your point?"; he basically told me that he got hit by stuff all the time, it was just part of the game...

[lkfmdc]

Been working with George Pardos, former OSU wrestler, Mark Coleman's wrestling coach, was assisstant coach at OSU. NOt that long ago stuff that was basicly submissions was still 100% legal. Plus, even today, shoulders, heads, knees and hips smack into you, they may not call it striking, but you end up just as black and blue. I'm supposed to go work out with Mark Coleman soon, that should be "fun" :D

[Ray Pina]

It's important to delineate. Otherwise you blanket all chinese martial arts, and frankly, some of them are just fine. Also, they are broad and varied and there needs to be context.

I'm definitely not bitter. Having too much fun, enjoying a happy, wonderful life. Just one of the major principles I live by is being open and honest.

You are telling me some of these Chinese martial arts fine. Aside from San Da, which I view more as a modern art, like Sambo, drawing on finer universal techniques, which Kung Fu art is fine?

I define "fine" as being at least on level with modern hand to hand fighting standards.

Which of these arts, under which master, is competing successfully in kick boxing or MMA venues? If they're not the sporting type, who have they beat?

I'm basically always keeping an eye out for "the good stuff." The ones that have "the good stuff" don't mind. They know they are golden and appreciate having discerning tastes.

[Eddie]

Well, the very nature of any sport-competition would mean that the are would have to be changed to adapt to the rules. This is what traditionalists usually fight abut. There are many kung fu schools and fighters who compete in such events, and some probably even use a few regular techniques from their styles (dare I say forms), but in the end, their stand up fighting will look just like any other type of stand up fighting. If a guy is successful, he would probably be labeled as a glorified kickboxer, and if he is not, probably be given the same name too.

People can and will argue until they are blue, it wont change the fact that in order to be a successful fighter, one need to be able to adapt, change and grow.

I so hate that word traditional when people like to refer to some sort of weird art.

[David Jamieson]

I'm definitely not bitter. Having too much fun, enjoying a happy, wonderful life. Just one of the major principles I live by is being open and honest.

You are telling me some of these Chinese martial arts fine. Aside from San Da, which I view more as a modern art, like Sambo, drawing on finer universal techniques, which Kung Fu art is fine?

I define "fine" as being at least on level with modern hand to hand fighting standards.

Which of these arts, under which master, is competing successfully in kick boxing or MMA venues? If they're not the sporting type, who have they beat?

I'm basically always keeping an eye out for "the good stuff." The ones that have "the good stuff" don't mind. They know they are golden and appreciate having discerning tastes.

so you only like mma and if it's not like mma you don't like it?

as far which arts are fine, pick one and you will have the extreme end of dross and the other extreme end of great stuff. the same is true of mma, there's crap and there's good stuff. It all evens out in the end, ultimately it is not about style anyway, but I figure you mighta known that already anyway.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yours is the superior intellect...


I would agree with that in context of the current environment, with people knowing how to effectively strike against grapplers (meaning maintaining their structure / base instead of getting taken down w/out a clue how to deal w/it...)


yeah, I still remember the first time I played w/one of the NYU wrestling guys a bit - he threw an elbow in the middle of whatever it was he was doing, I was like "isn't that illegal?", he was like, "yeah, and your point?"; he basically told me that he got hit by stuff all the time, it was just part of the game...

Stinker...

You now, ages ago (its seems), I had the chance to do a wrestling "seminar" with Stu Hart.
I think I am still in pain.

[taai gihk yahn]

Stinker...

You now, ages ago (its seems), I had the chance to do a wrestling "seminar" with Stu Hart.
I think I am still in pain.

it's because you were then, are now and always will be a Glorified Kickboxer (it's also why your dog has fleas, your 401K tanked and your wife cheated on you with the lawn maintenance supervisor...)

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's because you were then, are now and always will be a Glorified Kickboxer (it's also why your dog has fleas, your 401K tanked and your wife cheated on you with the lawn maintenance supervisor...)

Lawn maintenance supervisor?
I don't even know what that is !
LOL !

[SimonM]

yeah, I still remember the first time I played w/one of the NYU wrestling guys a bit - he threw an elbow in the middle of whatever it was he was doing, I was like "isn't that illegal?", he was like, "yeah, and your point?"; he basically told me that he got hit by stuff all the time, it was just part of the game...

Like I said before: Elbows are a definate part of wrestling; as long as you don't get caught by the ref.


Lawn maintenance supervisor?
I don't even know what that is !
LOL !

Head gardener.

[Kansuke]

Like I said before: Elbows are a definate part of wrestling; as long as you don't get caught by the ref.


LOL, there's a whole mess of stuff that is 'part' of wrestling. Basically anything you can get away with.

[SimonM]

LOL!

This is true.