Is There Any Hope For Traditional Martial Arts

[hulkout]

In the past number of years, we've seen the explosion of MMA. I think in many ways that's a good thing. After all, it did help to expose all the myths about one touch killing methods and whatever. But there is still a lot of value in the traditional arts if it's learned properly. And that's the key. There are so many lousy schools out there just teaching forms, unrealistic applications, and little to no sparring, it has really ruined the reputation of traditional martial arts. And that's really sad because if taught properly, the traditional styles hold up very well. The problem is that so many teachers out there only have a very superficial knowledge of the art that they're teaching, they themselves don't even understand the applications. So how the hell can these people be teaching? It's the blind leading the blind. Of course the public has become aware of this and traditional schools are dwindling down all the time. It seems that the only schools that have the money and facilities are the MMA schools. They've got huge gyms with rings, cages, tons of space, usually with a weight room also. Whereas the traditional schools are usually taught in some tiny unit in a strip mall beside a pizza joint or a convenience store. Is it just that the reputation has been ruined so badly with so many lousy instructors that even if some good ones come along, there's no chance? I mean there are good teachers out there. I'm lucky to have one. But then again, he also teaches out of a small industrial unit and sometimes I go to his house and train in his basement. That's just the way it is, but I'd like to see a comeback of the traditional arts. I fear that's just wishful thinking though.

[TenTigers]

Taditional Martial Arts have one thing going for them that the MMA schools don't.
Reputation. Most MMA fans, and schools play up to the big, macho, crewcut, or shaved head, goatee,tapout shirt,tribal tattooed fashion. Yep, MMA FASHION!
And along with that is macho attitude, stress on the beatdown, etc.

not all, as not every MMA school has this attitude-but the media hypes it, so
if that's what they hype, that's what the public buys into.

Eventually, people grow tired of that attitude. It isn't healthy for children, and once parents see the change in youth attitudes(parent are the last to notice)
they will make an exodus from many MMA schools.

And what do they want?
What do parents want for their kids?
What do adults want for themselves?
Discipline, Self-discipline, self-control, self-confidense, in a healthy enviornment.

Traditional schools provide all of this, and that is a huge selling point.

The traditional schools that have a MMA type of curricullum, providing good, real skills, along with the traditional training in a strong, healthy, enviornment, will survive. The basement schools, and schools that are run part-time, while the Sifu has a day job, will survive.
Traditional schools will always survive.
MMA is an evolution of a teaching method, and will be here to stay,
perhaps not in its present incarnation, but evolution is continuous.

ex-Lee Koon Hung ran a traditional Choy Li Fut school. All students started with the basic training syllabus.
After that, they had the option of staying in traditional CLF, or going into full contact fighting. He had the largest CLF school in HK.
Not a bad model.

[lkfmdc]

I guess I am no longer surprised when I see blatant ignorance on this board

You know why people flock to MMA schools? The see RESULTS. They see people get in real shape, learn how to actually use their techniques, see progress. Even if they don't compete they see thier classmates in matches using the techniques they are taught in class for real

Compare that to the average TMA place where you frequently won't break a sweat. There is much TALK about fighting, but very little actual fighting. There are references to how if you actualy did a technique how it might work, but no practical demonstration.

In the typical TMA place, questions are defered by talk about "higher levels" or "when you advance" or "secrets" or "indoor" or similar CRAP, yes CRAP....

TMA isn't dying because there clearly are people who want to buy into fantasy and are willing to suspend rational thought to participate. I mean, you see tons of it on this board pretty much every day

[TenTigers]

I agree and dissagree. I think that might be the norm, but only because Martial Arts is so huge, that there are just so many schools.
Just as if you ask anyone where to get a hamburger, they will say McDonalds, or Burger King, or Wendy's.
Now, ask them where to get a really good hamburger, and you will get a different answer.

I do believe the trend will be that more and more schools will be either combining the MMA mindset, or at least offerring it in addition to their regular curriculum.
The Gracies are already marketing a modified BJJ curriculum that is being "Sold" in the industry magazines, to add into your curriculum, just as they do with Krav Maga,Cardio Kickboxing, Stranger Danger, and Tai-Chi. Heck, ever since Body For Life came out, schools are doing their own version of that, so why would MMA be any different?
Don't think for a minute that there won't be McMMA.
Sure, there will always be stright up MMA gyms, but I seriously doubt that they will completely replace all the TMA schools.
Thre is plenty of room for both.
Time will tell.

Prediction: They will have MMA costumes next to the ninja costumes in Wallmart.

-and THIS
http://www.costumzee.com/tag/ufc/

http://halloween-costumes.spirithalloween.com/spirithalloween/Ufc

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=111632251
see? It's already started.:p ptthhhpppp!

[martialartspeon]

In many martial arts there is lots of artsy flash and theatrics that are non functional to the martial part of the art. If you ignore the theatrics you tend to see results faster.

[BoulderDawg]

To start with no one really agrees what "Traditional Martial Arts" is. I've read countless argument here about this lineage and that lineage....all claiming to be the true traditonal way.

I think with the cultural revolution any true authentic traditional ways have been lost. All we can do is piece together what we have in the best possible manner and go from there.

[bawang]

i think fake kung fu is dying real kung fu is doing same as before maybe even better. just because you dont see good kung fu on youtube or yellowpages doesnt mean its dying.

[uki]

just think... several generations from now, what was once deemed non-traditional today, will be the new tradition of the morrow...

[hulkout]

I think there's a problem with how people view traditional arts. If there's a traditional school that emphasizes lots of practical fighting, sparring, heavy bag work, ground work, etc, then they call it an MMA-style school. That's simply not true. A truly traditional school will include all those things. The problem is most so-called traditional schools are just money-makers selling people karate kid "wax on, wax off" stuff. And it's gotten to the point where people associate that with traditional martial arts. Now the majority of schools seem to be like that, but the art itself still holds up as well as ever. The problem is that there's almost no one who teaches it properly so the public perception is really bad. I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's gone downhill so badly that even if a whole ton of traditional schools started changing the way they do things, is it too late to make a difference?

[bawang]

i wish u r allowed to challenge schools but today they can call the police on u.
why do people worry about kung fu being less popular. who cares

[TenTigers]

"I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's gone downhill so badly that even if a whole ton of traditional schools started changing the way they do things, is it too late to make a difference?"

does it matter?
Do you think traditional Gung-Gu instructors chose Gung-Fu because everyone else was doing it?
When I started, NOBODY was doing it. The only written material was in Bruce Tegner's Complete Book of Karate-and that was about four pages.
Bruce Lee was the first time most non-Asians even heard of Gung-Fu.
Traditional schools-for the most part, are here because we love what we do.
There will always be people who love TMA. There will always be Traditional Schools.


...and there will always be McKwoons, LARPERS, wannabes,toughguys,fighters, dancers,and everything in between.
Not a big deal.

[hungmunhingdai]

Is There Any Hope For Traditional Martial Arts

東山再升

[TenTigers]

Dung San Joi Hei (Sing)

there will always be hope where there are people who truly believe in what they do. It's like the "what have you seen.." thread. Those that know, know.

[ingchao]

Any art can claim to be traditional. I thought I was upholding a "great tradition"
by adhering to the rigid strictures of the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu I studied back in the 80's, only to find out later that that particular style was only 50 or so years old.

I've recently seen a famed McDojo that teaches more respect than you would expect from any kind of belt store- even though their techniques are...well pretty sloppy. (TKD-BTW)

My point is, it's the spirit that you practice with that upholds the tradition and gives respect to those that came before you.

And that's the Warrior's Tradition. Wude, Mo Duk, The Bushido Code- whatever you wanna call it.

[jedco77]

I can assure you that as a praticioner of Traditional Kung Fu for many years now that you realize when you do blind folded chi-sao and other drills without using your eyes that you truly have gotten it. I do firmly believe that although I may not fare well in a ring with MMA fighter to some degree that if there ever came a time that I was in danger that my instincts would be able to assist me to pull of a technique that would help me in some form. Plus, on the other hand the confidence that I have achieved in my own daily interactions help me be in more control on a daily basis that keeps me out of any situations that would jeopardize my health.

[TenTigers]

I can assure you that as a praticioner of Traditional Kung Fu for many years now that you realize when you do blind folded chi-sao and other drills without using your eyes that you truly have gotten it. .

I wouldn't go quite that far. Blindfolded chi-sao is taught to beginners, in most Wing Chun schools as a developmental tool. It is a learning aid, not an accomplishment.

You are not a Jedi yet, young Padawan.;)

[TenTigers]

Christ, David. You may be right. (sigh):(

[taai gihk yahn]

I think the whole concept of "traditional" is a trap; it is first and foremost an ill-defined qualifier: what constitutes traditional? does a style have to be practiced unaltered for a certain amount of time for it to qualify as such? 10 years? 50? 100? 1,000? and is such a thing really possible? or even desirable? I mean, the "art" has to suit the need - the need of the practitioner, of the cultural milieu and, most importantly, of the moment of the actual encounter; "traditional" Ch'an Budhism would tell you in a heartbeat to forget the past, the now is all - a favorite image is Hui Neng, the Sixth Patriarch of Zen, shown cutting up the Buddhist sutras...not to say that the past should be ignored, but it should not be artificially maintained either...

I would argue that many people see 'traditional" as synonymous with "unaltered"; people use the argument that it was obviously "good enough for the 'old masters' - who are we to argue with them?" but what is it that we are really trying to preserve? something utilitarian, or our own sense of security because we train a 1,000 year-old art, and therefore feel we are in "good company"?

human nature: we love a good story; we want to have the tales of the old timers as a touchstone to give us a sense of continuity - the reality of life is chaos and uncertainty and ultimately death; we want to feel like, in life, we are doing something worthwhile, not wasting our time; what better way to ensure the relevance of what we do than be affiliating with a tradition?

but notice, that in warfare, while tradition is respected, it is certainly not adhered to blindly; so yes, at West Point they may study the tactics used at Thermopyle (sp?), and respect them both in context and in terms of what principles may be applicable to modern warfare; but they don't eschew the realities of modern combat either; likewise, to argue over minute details of a "traditional" form / kata, either in terms of execution or preservation, is really silly; but people do it...mainly because they can, of course - maybe there is a reason tha the people who train live / under pressure cannot afford the luxury of debating the nuance of where the distal MCP joint of the third finger should be during morning versus evening practice? not that it may not be a valuable debate, but in the appropriate context...

qigong is another area rife w/this - 1000 years ago, I don't care how good of an empirical knowledge the Chinese had about the human body (and certainly it is not hard to argue that Chinese medicine at the time was "better" than European medicine - but Arabic medicine was probably on par, if not better...), when you move into a biomedical model, it blows away a lot of so-called TCM (the analogy is that you used to have protracted arguments between neurologists about diagnoses based on clinical signs - now they look at the MRI for the site of the lesion); if it didn't why is it the dominant form of medicine on the planet (hint: it works...); not to say there aren't flaws, but overall, big picture is what we're talking about; and certainly, medicine learns from it's "traditional" past: like the use of leeches and maggots in contemporary wound care - but in context of biomedical principles; so as far as qigong, we can understand the mechanisms and effects in context of contemporary anatomy and physiology, and can use this understanding accordingly;

back to TCMA: 500 years ago, you often didn't know what your "neighbor" 100 miles away was doing - travel was much less convenient then, and so the chance to travel was not for everyone - those who did were seen as remarkable - Marco Polo was the exception then - now, no big deal; so a lot of "traditional" was based on the fact that if you lived in a village in China that practiced a certain style of MA, the rate of evolution was limited to who traveled outside of that village to accumulate knowledge, or who passed through it and disseminated it; add onto that the Chinese cultural baggage (Confuciust) of deference to antiquity as a means of legitimization (as opposed to innovation), and this creates an environment that is anti-change; as such, "tradition" is endemic to the cultural climate;

the world is different now; conflation of time and space due to technological innovation is a reality that will not go away; as such, the rate at which MA evolves is different, measured in years, not centuries; MMA as a construct is the logical outcome of ~50 years of American TMA-ists trying to fit into the mold of "one style forever" and "don't be a jack-of-all-trades" that probably has more to do with "eastern"-based notions of self cultivation than anything else (e.g. - the ideal that you pick one vehicle - MA, ikebana, tea, calligraphy, zen - and use that as a means of self-discovery / actualization / transcendence); it has nothing to do with actual development of well-rounded fighting skill, which, as we clearly see now, it is possible to achieve in terms of multiple skill sets: weapons, stand-up, grappling; what's more, we have "discovered" a way to live pressure-test arts in a way that approximates "reality" more closely than has been the case for some time; also, 500 years ago, life was much more fleeting: American culture is largely insulated from the proximity of death: medicine / public health, non-existent threat of invasion - we take "life" for granted more than at any time in the history - so the idea of "fighting for your life" is alien to the majority of people (not everyone, of course - certainly there are examples of areas in the US where this is not the case at all - but they are the exception, not the norm)

so again, first define "traditional" (which, honestly, in context of MA, you really can't); second, get over it - if you study a so-called "traditional art", don't let your intelligence / ability to analyze clearly become a victim of blind adherence / deference to past "authorities"; if you want to agonize of details of kata, that's fine, nothing wrong with that at all! but don't kid yourself that this sort of activity has minimal relevance to applied combat (and as for the "well, this worked for the 'old masters'", I would concede it, as long as you realize that if everybody is doing it, then you have a different context); similarly, if you practice an art that has "internal" training, go for it - and then go test yourself against an MMA guy who has trained for the same amount of time and see how it holds up; also a typical TCMA strategy, when efficacy for combat is questioned, the whole, "oh, but our art is not just for fighting" comes up - that's fine, but doesn't answer the question...of course, in the long run, you may have fewer injuries and live longer / be healthier practicing taiji than the guy who does MMA (maybe, not necessarily though...) but that's a different argument anyway;

do you want to spend 40 years finding the "secrets" of the past? or live in the reality of the now? "traditional" practice can afford one the opportunity to do both, it's a question of how you approach it...

[BrokenTitanium]

i think that the MMA craze going on right now is a faze that the M/A world is going through. I am not knocking down MMA by no means, i just think that its popularity will fade out eventually. just my 2 cents

[Laukarbo]

honestly I dont give a schitt...

call it what u want traditional,contempoary,mma,bullshido whatthefackever...

some people always have something to say,think they know it all...i know many,many people that train their chosen martial art,they live a happy life,they could defend themselfs...and thats it who cares what a couple of ego driven guys chat on the boards..the forums are not the world..they just forums which are a good thing but they dont represent the majority of martial artists in the world I know too many who dont even use the net...mma is a good thing .... for those who wanna compete or get in shape...others wanna learn to defend themselfs,they spar at their schools some not..etc who cares... i dont know why people still make a fuzz about it...

:cool:

[GreenCloudCLF]

Late 1970's - Kung Fu (Thank you Shaw Brothers)
Mid 1980's - Karate (Thank you Ralph Macchio)
Early 1990's - Ninjitsu (Thank you Michael Dudikoff)
Late 1990's - BJJ (Thank you every Gracie whose name starts with an "R" and is pronounced like an "H")
Early 00's - Reality style a la Krav Maga (Thank you Isreali marketing)
Late 00's - MMA (Thank you Dana White)

I am not saying anything about style or substance. That is a different thread that has been beaten more than any dead horse. Everything happens in cycles. It is the way of the world. TKD should probably be shoved on that liste in the late 80's also, but you get the idea.

[TenTigers]

GC, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
It was Sho Kosugi who inspired the media-watching world to get into Ninjitsu!

-and let's not forget the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!!!!
Michael Dudikoff-peh!
PEH, I say!

[GreenCloudCLF]

GC, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
It was Sho Kosugi who inspired the media-watching world to get into Ninjitsu!

-and let's not forget the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!!!!
Michael Dudikoff-peh!
PEH, I say!

American Ninja shows all Japanese how the white man can do well at anything. That movie was a huge impetus to get me into the martial arts. In fact that movie almost got Allie Alberigo a student. Good thing a Kung-Fu school was closer...

[taai gihk yahn]

In fact that movie almost got Allie Alberigo a student. Good thing a Kung-Fu school was closer...
but now he's everywhere...:rolleyes:

[irontiger1981]

to me i think there is a lot of hope for traditional martial arts, because training for mma is not training for the street. i think there is a balance between modern and tma. i say you teach the traditional arts with modern methods. namean????

[uki]

mma works only with rules... without them it is useless.

[David Jamieson]

mma works only with rules... without them it is useless.

?

care to explain that?

why can't you pull out of it whatever is useful and use it in any confrontation?

punches, kicks, takedowns, throws, locks and submission holds don't work anywhere else without rules?

[lkfmdc]

?

care to explain that?

why can't you pull out of it whatever is useful and use it in any confrontation?

punches, kicks, takedowns, throws, locks and submission holds don't work anywhere else without rules?

Dear lord, could I actually agree with a post by Jamieson :eek:

[uki]

?

care to explain that?

why can't you pull out of it whatever is useful and use it in any confrontation?

punches, kicks, takedowns, throws, locks and submission holds don't work anywhere else without rules?oh my... and here i thought you were the 10,000 post enlighted one... it's a shame you cannot grasp the concept here. have you learned anything in your training?

[TenTigers]

OOOOOOOOOH No Ya Don't! Yer not sucking people into this tired old debate and hijacking this thread with seductive little lures like a promiscuous young tart fresh out of Catholic School, showing just a hint of lace and cleavage, as she accidently on purpose bends down to check to see if there;'s a run in her stocking, innocently brushing up against me with her supple yet firm...JUST STOP IT! YA HEAR?!

[irontiger1981]

i think tma will stay alive as long as sifus teach the ways, to the right disciples.while stressing to those disciples the importance of the old ways and keeping each lineage pure, but letting modern methods and science to be a part of their training.

[David Jamieson]

Dear lord, could I actually agree with a post by Jamieson :eek:

politics and religion? No.

Martial arts? probably more same views than not.

uki, that still isn't explaining anything. what's your point?

[TenTigers]

Yep,take away the ref and the rules,and someone like GSP would be putty in my hands.:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

Initially MMA competitions were good in that they helped flush away the Crap. Now the toilet's been refilled with another type of crap... it's kinda green- with partially digested peanuts...

[taai gihk yahn]

Yep,take away the ref and the rules,and someone like GSP would be putty in my hands.:rolleyes:

I walked by him on the street the other day and kicked his asz while waiting for the light to change

BTW, if you ever get a chance to do some ground work w/Sensei Debra, seize the opportunity (you may have already for all I know, just sayin')

[notanexit]

I think MMA has opened a lot of eyes and exposed a lot of frauds.The good thing is that you can easily check the credentials of a MMA teacher/trainer.With TMA all you have to do is get some forms and techniques from dvds,put on your pajamas,teach your mimicked moves from the videos,and claim to be a disciple of a chinese teacher.That's what my former mantis instructor did(and still doing).

[TenTigers]

dude, you trained with some guy in his pajamas?
and watched videos?
What, like a sleepover?
That's like training with Micheal Jackson.
That's just so wrong.

[GreenCloudCLF]

OOOOOOOOOH No Ya Don't! Yer not sucking people into this tired old debate and hijacking this thread with seductive little lures like a promiscuous young tart fresh out of Catholic School, showing just a hint of lace and cleavage, as she accidently on purpose bends down to check to see if there;'s a run in her stocking, innocently brushing up against me with her supple yet firm...JUST STOP IT! YA HEAR?!

I went to Catholic High SChool...man I miss those days!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that MMA was a great shot in the arm for all those that THOUGHT they were doing MA in a practical way, it showed that the majority of people can't fight their way out of a paper bag, no excuses.
For those in the "know", that whole "no rules" excuse is and was BS, many of us have actually fought no rules, like thew earlier Vale Tudo matches were, and some of us have actually used our MA skills for real, not in La-La land, and those people will tell you that what does work "for real" is what works in the ring:
Speed, power, aggression, basics.

As for TMA, Since I have always viewed MMA as a step "back" to real TMA training, I don't see an issue.
All TMA have to do to "survive" is brace the core principles of MMA training:
Training with a resiting opponent ( alive training, as much as I hate that word)
Training that covers all facets and ranges of a fight, INCLUDING weapons.
Training with the highest caliber people you can find to see just how well you ARE training.

[SimonM]

mma works only with rules... without them it is useless.

Your opinions are largely useless.

[Ray Pina]

First, I can say that the men AND women that I know who compete in MMA are the most grounded, level-headed and modest martial artists that I know. They are that way because they deal in reality daily. They win, they lose and they immediately know why. The reason I love them is that they tend to train hard.

Sure, a lot of them have tattoos or crazy hair. I have a gold nose ring like a bull. This is just because we tend to be younger men, me being an oldie at 34. And of course, it attracts all types. Some deal with the fear of fighting by being loud and talking smack, other are quiet. But these men and women are very dedicated, focused and drenched with the best qualities martial arts can offer.

My view of TMA is not positive. Any combative claiming to be "traditional" is already out of the loop, finished. You can't show up to a modern fight with yesterday's technique. Not only have we all seen it, we know the counter to finish you when you employ such a relic. In the world of competitive BJJ, it's not the finishing technique, it's the set up... for the same reason. Everyone is progressing and hip to it. You have to be cutting edge.

Also, TMA schools promote themselves for the dedication, discipline and integrity they teach.... My God, they're like TD Barnum ringing the register off the suckers they lure in. Discipline? Integrity? Little Johnny gets to stand in front of the class with his black belt or sash, the big shot, without every producing or receiving a bloody nose.

And I know that isn't the point of TMA. And there's more to if than fighting. And no one needs to fight because they have ball crushing and eye popping technique. Yea, everybody has an excuse to avoid putting up.

[naja]

Training with a resiting opponent ( alive training, as much as I hate that word)

The exact reason why I went from Kung Fu to Judo.




Training that covers all facets and ranges of a fight, INCLUDING weapons.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to look into this aspect of training. Yea, I got staff and short stick training at my old kwoon, but I'm interested in knife tactics. Something tells me I'm more likely to run up against a knife than a bo staff......

[MightyB]

I see BJJ as a traditional art - same as Judo is a traditional.

ADCC creator Prof. Nelson Monterio Jr. once said that BJJ is done with a Gi and that sometimes they train without a Gi. True BJJ is a Gi art.

Anyway- I guess my definition of a traditional art is one that specializes in one of the main components of martial arts (Shuai, Na, Ti, Da). It's when they try to claim too much that the problems start- plus bad training is just bad training.

[Ray Pina]

It just goes to show you never know.

Forget everything you know about the Gracies and MMA. Then think about BRAZILIAN Jiu-Jitsu for a moment. I'd run from it. The same way I'd run from Chinese rock n' roll. But nonetheless, these guys have taken a "traditional" art that was all but dead and developed a fierce fighting style. First, because they approached it openly and with realism. And then because they kept it real and put it to the test against all kinds of fighters, first in Brazil and then internationally.

These days I don't care about codes, creeds, histories, patches... I want to train with people who have experience. Forget all this talk about "good" teachers. That's marketing by guys that have none. We're not splitting atoms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the thing, the term TMA is thrown around way too much.
A Traditional MARTIAL art is one that keeps alive the TRADITION IT WAS DEVELOPED/CREATED in, it has nothing to do with the technical aspect of it.
If a system was created with combat in mind, with practical fighting in mind then, ANYTHING that happens to it that continues that TRADITION is withing of the tradition and as such, continues to make it a TMA.
People tend to look at the TMA that have BECOME impractical and no longer truly focus on "combat effectivness", and they use them as examples of "band TMA" and as such, ANY TMA is the same and therefore, bad.

[SimonM]

claps for SR's perfect summation

T3h 1nt3rn3t 15 0\/3r, \/\/3 c4n 4|| 60 h0^^3 n0\/\/.

[Ray Pina]

If a system was created with combat in mind, with practical fighting in mind then, ANYTHING that happens to it that continues that TRADITION is withing of the tradition and as such, continues to make it a TMA.
People tend to look at the TMA that have BECOME impractical and no longer truly focus on "combat effectivness", and they use them as examples of "band TMA" and as such, ANY TMA is the same and therefore, bad.


There's no arguing with your definition. But which style was created with a solely combat focus AND retains that focus.

First one that comes to mind is Sambo and Krav Maga. Though I've seen the later completely commercialized on Long Island with practitioners that are far from aggressive.

Internal? Internal is all but dead. So dead in fact that today's representatives make the stories of the past sound absurd... and anyone who believes them akin to grown men who believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Kung Fu? God, Kung Fu is such a laughing stock it's practitioners don't even know their silly verbal defense of its various systems are hilarious to the rest of us.

Karate? Maybe in the days of Okinawan farmers. Certainly not today with the plastic trophies for form and the re-breakable boards being sold on the internet.

BJJ? Some favored positions (turtle) would get you killed in a real encounter.

So what does that leave us with? Again, back to picking a choosing the best of what you can find to strengthen any holes in your game.

For me, it has now become BJJ/Vale Tudo (same coach) and boxing. After the new year I'm going to purchase my first pistol and shotgun and learn how to maintain and use them properly and efficiently. That's the best I can think of right now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's no arguing with your definition. But which style was created with a solely combat focus AND retains that focus.

First one that comes to mind is Sambo and Krav Maga. Though I've seen the later completely commercialized on Long Island with practitioners that are far from aggressive.

Internal? Internal is all but dead. So dead in fact that today's representatives make the stories of the past sound absurd... and anyone who believes them akin to grown men who believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Kung Fu? God, Kung Fu is such a laughing stock it's practitioners don't even know their silly verbal defense of its various systems are hilarious to the rest of us.

Karate? Maybe in the days of Okinawan farmers. Certainly not today with the plastic trophies for form and the re-breakable boards being sold on the internet.

BJJ? Some favored positions (turtle) would get you killed in a real encounter.

So what does that leave us with? Again, back to picking a choosing the best of what you can find to strengthen any holes in your game.

For me, it has now become BJJ/Vale Tudo (same coach) and boxing. After the new year I'm going to purchase my first pistol and shotgun and learn how to maintain and use them properly and efficiently. That's the best I can think of right now.

You make valid points Ray and they show the sad decline of MA in general.
Though some will say that it applies only to "commercial" MA, that is yet to be determined.

[MightyB]

I'd say "buyer beware". I don't hate on the traditional- I do agree with what you guys are saying mostly 'cuz there's a lot of crap out there. But- crap isn't constrained to just "tma" anymore. The commercial success of BJJ and the UFC has led to the creation of a lot of crappy fake mcdojo MMA gyms.

Sucks doesn't it...

[Lucas]

This isn't confined to martial arts alone either. Tradition in general, will be contorted and manipulated to meet peoples personal goals and desires. A lot of times that leaves the tradition drawn on, empty, hollow, and devoid of its original essence. Thus destroying the tradition.

Many times when people say 'traditional martial art', in my opinion they are often refering to what I call 'ethnic martial art'. CMA, JMA, FMA, Etc... as opposed to a TCMA, etc.

meaning the martial art in question has a particular ethnic flare, yet may or may not hold true to its originally evolved traditions.

We have all seen a martial art that is being labeled as traditional, when it is anything but.

The trick though is establishing WHAT the tradition is. If its fighting, then there is a pretty easy way to find out if they are traditional or not. Do they fight? Period.

[lkfmdc]

I starting writing out this post, and man did I get depressed :o

When I was training in TCMA, in NYC Chinatown you had

Hung Ga - Frank Yee

Hung Ga - Wan Chi Ming

Hung Ga - Yeung Ah Ming

Pak Hok - Chan Fei

Eagle Claw - Shum Leung

Chat Sing Tong Long - Chiu Luen

Fu Jow Pai - Wai Hong

Hsing Yi - Kenny Gong

Dragon - Wing Hong Yip

Bak Siu Lam - Johnny So

Pak Mei - Kwong Man

Pak Mei - Leung Yi Chi

Choy Lay Fut - Chan- something (forget?)

Wing Chun - Moy Yat

Golden Lion - Cheung Wah

5 Animals - Chung Sit Man

Shuai Jiao - Jeng Hsin Ping

Lo Han Men - "sifu Li"

That was just in Chinatown

now who is in Chinatown? in Manhattan? IN all 5 boros?

[uki]

Your opinions are largely useless.one mans trash is another mans treasure.

[Ray Pina]

The commercial success of BJJ and the UFC has led to the creation of a lot of crappy fake mcdojo MMA gyms.

Sucks doesn't it...

I can honestly say I haven't experienced that, though I haven't gone looking for it. And my experience, especially since I moved down here, is one of meeting people at venues. But I see "teams" from all over. The guy who beat me in my last mma match, and since died in a bike accident, was from waaaay out in PA, in a small town by Amish country. He had a boxing couch and a full team with him. They all won.

A "fake" MMA school doesn't seem like a concept that would last or end well for the owner/head coach. People know what MMA is. They have pretty clear expectations. And everybody has a friend that is training for real today, that's how big its gotten. A school like that will be in for a big surprise sooner or later. I would think. I would hope.

[Ray Pina]

I starting writing out this post, and man did I get depressed :o

When I was training in TCMA, in NYC Chinatown you had

Hung Ga - Frank Yee

Hung Ga - Wan Chi Ming

Hung Ga - Yeung Ah Ming

Pak Hok - Chan Fei

Eagle Claw - Shum Leung

Chat Sing Tong Long - Chiu Luen

Fu Jow Pai - Wai Hong

Hsing Yi - Kenny Gong

Dragon - Wing Hong Yip

Bak Siu Lam - Johnny So

Pak Mei - Kwong Man

Pak Mei - Leung Yi Chi

Choy Lay Fut - Chan- something (forget?)

Wing Chun - Moy Yat

Golden Lion - Cheung Wah

5 Animals - Chung Sit Man

Shuai Jiao - Jeng Hsin Ping

Lo Han Men - "sifu Li"

That was just in Chinatown

now who is in Chinatown? in Manhattan? IN all 5 boros?

Man, you're the last generation that can make claims like that. Golden times and location.

[Ray Pina]

Truth is, Japanese martial arts and Chinese martial arts have their own distinct flavor, attitudes, objectives and ways of going about achieving them. There's good stuff in there.

When I trained karate I was a kid. Bloody noses were common place and we had a tub in the back, the men's changing room, and you'd just go back there and wash it out. No big thing. This was in the 80s. I hope there's still core schools like this. If there are, their students will be fine.

I branched out. I found usefulness in Wing Chun's sticking. Hell yea. Master David Bond Chan woke me up to real mechanics and leverage, how to generate power. Showed me a different way of solving problems that I agree with, just not battle hardened enough yet. So I try to keep what I like and not lose too much of it and go for the next thing. Right now jiu-jitsu has me. It's a wonderful style.

In the end I guess, you can't blame the schools. Everyone is free to set up shop. But what about these wack-a-doos that call themselves martial artists? With the grey robes... the yellow leggings tied up to their knees. The slippers. The three sectional staff... beautiful form. Moving like a super hero. Say "boo" too loud, too near.... and they're gone.

[TenTigers]

I starting writing out this post, and man did I get depressed :o



Hung Ga - Frank Yee -There are Yee's Hung-Ga in various locations-Chelsea, Brooklyn, etc
Hung Ga - Wan Chi Ming-Still around

Hung Ga - Yeung Ah Ming

Pak Hok - Chan Fei-Still going strong

Eagle Claw - Shum Leung-Fighthouse and 440

Chat Sing Tong Long - Chiu Luen -in Brooklyn

Fu Jow Pai - Wai Hong- Wai Hong still teaches privately, and teaches sword in Columbus Park, Kwan's is still open, and Hui Cambrelen is still active

Hsing Yi - Kenny Gong-R.I.P.

Dragon - Wing Hong Yip-still actively teaching-not on 22 Mott, but in the basement of his furniture shop-BTW-his video, which is many years old, was shot there.

Bak Siu Lam - Johnny So

Pak Mei - Kwong Man -Baxter St
Pak Mei-Chan-Daw teaches privately
Pak Mei - Leung Yi Chi

Choy Lay Fut - Chan- something (forget?) There is a Hung Sing school in Chinatown

Wing Chun - Moy Yat-Flushing

Golden Lion - Cheung Wah

5 Animals - Chung Sit Man

Shuai Jiao - Jeng Hsin Ping-His school is still active

Lo Han Men - "sifu Li"

That was just in Chinatown


now who is in Chinatown? in Manhattan? IN all 5 boros?
on top of that,There is
Southern mantis-James Cama, Norman Chin, Milton Chin, and others
Lung Ying Dragon Style-Chan Duk-San
Fut-Sao Wing Chun-Henry Leung's guys
Wing Chun-Alan Lee,Phil Redmond,VA Thomas,James Cama,Chung Chow,etc
Hung-Ga-Paul 'Koh',Bill Fong,Yui Chow
Buk Sing CLF-NY
and don't forget-LamaPaiSifu
a good dozen Tai-Chi schools
Sure, many of the older guys have retired or passed away, but many have also passed the torch.
But-I do miss seeing Fu Jow P'ai right at the top of Canal St. It was like,"Welcome to Chinatown"

[lkfmdc]

I, respectfully, disagree....

[Merryprankster]

Plenty of "fake" MMA schools. Thing is - and this is what separates sportive arts from non-sportive ones, is that I will ALWAYS be able to find good MMA instruction if I want it. Same with Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc.

I don't have to go by reputation, lineage etc. I just need to know who is turning out people who are winning. And there you go.

Will any of these arts - or MMA even - turn you into a fighter? Not necessarily. But a practitioner at a decent school (not great, not even good, but decent), will have a useable skill set in little time.

Mastery is hard work down the line, as always.

It goes back to identification. MMA Mcdojo crap is fairly prolific...but identifying the "real" stuff is super super easy. And that's the great advantage a sportive art gives.

This does not apply to point sparring tap-tap games ;-) However, if you want to be the best at point sparring, go see that coach!

[rogue]

Here is the thing, the term TMA is thrown around way too much.
A Traditional MARTIAL art is one that keeps alive the TRADITION IT WAS DEVELOPED/CREATED in, it has nothing to do with the technical aspect of it.
If a system was created with combat in mind, with practical fighting in mind then, ANYTHING that happens to it that continues that TRADITION is withing of the tradition and as such, continues to make it a TMA.
People tend to look at the TMA that have BECOME impractical and no longer truly focus on "combat effectivness", and they use them as examples of "band TMA" and as such, ANY TMA is the same and therefore, bad.

Many traditional styles have become cargo cults where the members think that by dressing a certain way, speaking a certain way, acting a certain way and going through traditional rituals that they too will have the combat skills of Master Who Flung Dung magically dropped on them. Most never understand what really develops skill.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many traditional styles have become cargo cults where the members think that by dressing a certain way, speaking a certain way, acting a certain way and going through traditional rituals that they too will have the combat skills of Master Who Flung Dung magically dropped on them. Most never understand what really develops skill.

There is a cult mentality in all MA, that is a given.
We all agree that the lack of functional fighting skills is the "disease" currently eating away at TMA, and most will agree that it has very little to do with the systems themselves but what a handful of so-called "masters" have perverted said systems into being.

[Ray Pina]

a good dozen Tai-Chi schools


A dozen?

Come on now. And some of those names are certainly bigger then their abilities.

[Ray Pina]

Strongest trees take time to grow. Time to put down roots, time to harden. ....


www.Imperialtao.com


Sir, with no disrespect, this is exactly the mentality that has killed Kung Fu. And I know you, like the other sifus, mean well. You have the good stuff. Better than everybody else. It's just the **** silly American students.

Truth is, you can learn the mechanics and application of a double-leg takedown in 20 minutes. It's very simple: change levels, drop your weight onto your forward knee, ride the momentum up with the back leg for positioning, leverage and base, karate chop the back of the knees and dump the guy. You drill it to you drop.

I was exposed to the double leg for the first time in May. I have a kick ass double-leg now.

Same with stand up: Check the lead jab, close and cover for the hook.... one, two, three.

Of course one needs proper weight distribution and balancing at all times. So does a soccer player, or baseball player. No one starts talking all crazy about deep roots and the required time it takes for a tree to reach maturity. We are not trees. We are human beings with big brains and flexible bodies.

That's the problem with Kung Fu. Making mountains out of moll hills. You don't need yoga meditation to conjure up some fantastic training method. I'll give it to you for free, right here and now: Boxing gloves and head gear.

If that's too intimidating for students to drill with, hand them an inflatable bouncing ball to play with and send them on their way. Martial arts is not for them.

[naja]

That's the problem with Kung Fu. Making mountains out of moll hills. You don't need yoga meditation to conjure up some fantastic training method. I'll give it to you for free, right here and now: Boxing gloves and head gear.

I agree 100%. I probably would have stayed in kung fu if I had been taught the basics and then got to drill then on a resisting partner over and over. No fancy stuff, just good footwork and good striking. Why is it so hard to find this in CMA?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree 100%. I probably would have stayed in kung fu if I had been taught the basics and then got to drill then on a resisting partner over and over. No fancy stuff, just good footwork and good striking. Why is it so hard to find this in CMA?

I think the issue can be one of student retention, some may think that if they hold back stuff you will stick around longer.
In some cases it may be as simple as thinking that the "old way" is best, old way being slow steady progress because, let's face it, you aren't going anywhere and MA is a lifetime pursuit.
It can also be the some teachers forget that they should focus on making someone a fighter FIRST and a MA second.
There is NO REASON why anyone training in a fighting system can't use it to protect themselves sooner rather than later.
Truly it is the responsibility, the duty, of a teacher/coach to make someone that decides to take a MA for the sake of self protection, a effective fighter.
What are you gonna do is some tries to beat you up after 3 months of MA training, say come back in 3 years?
No.
It is a teachers responsiblity to teach a student to fight in the short time possible, to make them an effective fighter sooner rather than later.
THEN, you can mold them in to a martial artist, not the other way around.

[naja]

It can also be the some teachers forget that they should focus on making someone a fighter FIRST and a MA second.
There is NO REASON why anyone training in a fighting system can't use it to protect themselves sooner rather than later.
Truly it is the responsibility, the duty, of a teacher/coach to make someone that decides to take a MA for the sake of self protection, a effective fighter.
What are you gonna do is some tries to beat you up after 3 months of MA training, say come back in 3 years?
No.
It is a teachers responsiblity to teach a student to fight in the short time possible, to make them an effective fighter sooner rather than later.
THEN, you can mold them in to a martial artist, not the other way around.

Yea, I agree. And I would think this would be common sense if you're a teacher, but I guess not. I mentioned my desire to get in more sparring, and sparring that included actually putting on the gloves and making contact, about 5 months before I quit. I was at his school for a total of 14 months, so I don't think I was out of line asking for this after being there for 9 months. But the teacher gave me the old "I don't let me students brawl" speech and I new then that I wasn't going to get what I now wanted out of his classes.

And here's something else. While forms are great for conditioning, no one is going to get any degree of fighting instruction from them if they haven't been taught how to fight before hand. Yea, some people are naturals, but I'd bet 90% who come through the doors aren't. I quit KF mainly for financial reasons, but what ultimately pushed me into the decision was hearing that once I got my next test out of the way, I would have 15 more long forms to learn before making it to black. 15!!! I was getting ready to test for third brown. That means an average of 5 long forms for each of the next 3 belts.

And I probably won't go back to a CMA in the future for striking. I'll go JMA more than likely, or possibly boxing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yea, I agree. And I would think this would be common sense if you're a teacher, but I guess not. I mentioned my desire to get in more sparring, and sparring that included actually putting on the gloves and making contact, about 5 months before I quit. I was at his school for a total of 14 months, so I don't think I was out of line asking for this after being there for 10 months. But the teacher gave me the old "I don't let me students brawl" speech and I new then that I wasn't going to get what I now wanted out of his classes.

And here's something else. While forms are great for conditioning, no one is going to get any degree of fighting instruction from them if they haven't been taught how to fight before hand. Yea, some people are naturals, but I'd bet 90% who come through the doors aren't. I quit KF mainly for financial reasons, but what ultimately pushed me into the decision was hearing that once I got my next test out of the way, I would have 15 more long forms to learn before making it to black. 15!!! I was getting ready to test for third brown. That means an average of 5 long forms for each of the next 3 belts.

And I probably won't go back to a CMA in the future for striking. I'll go JMA more than likely, or possibly boxing.

You know, you can never judge a system based on one school, but I feel your pain.
I know of one kung fu school in Toronto that all they do is forms and "sparring sets", but if you can "qualify" for their "closed door" classes, all they do is sparring and conditioning.
The teacher is retired now, so I don't know what is going on there now, but I visit him 1-2 month to get "refreshers" on my HK and some "other stuff" and he is still a relentless task master.
I asked him once, months ago, why the difference between the way he taught and he flat out said that the vast majority was there to "do kung fu and not to fight" so why waste his time.
Perhaps some of the blame must fall on the students too...

[Ray Pina]

The reason it is the way it is: lack of skill, fear and money.... not necessarily in that order.

The teacher doesn't own this skills he's showing. He knows the moves, he knows how they work, but he isn't good enough to pull them off against a kick boxer....

In turn, he's fearful to promote an open training environment to avoid a scenario where he can be put to the test by students or outsiders.

These types of schools are not the exception in CMA, but the rule. And they attract people who want to get close to the subject but not so close as to get punched in the nose.

Everyone's happy.

Truth is, at a real martial arts school, you're mixing it up from day one. This doesn't mean going crazy beating the hell out of each other. It means, grabbing onto someone's gi and see who's left standing. It means pairing up with a partner and working jamming techniques at about 50% power. And if you get tagged, there's your free bonus lesson.

I have punched my new coach in the face sparring in the ring, I've kicked him. Stand up, I think I can take him. I'm bigger. I prefer my technique.

On the ground, I can't touch him. I've never tapped him.

He's by far the best coach I ever had. He sweats with us. He exhausts himself with us. He competes with us and with others. This is traditional martial arts. One school united in improving, together and individually. We're all here for each other. Thank God I found this place.

[Merryprankster]

BJJ is an amazing and complex system, it happens on the ground. The positioning it much easier than stances, you can simply lay down. To do what they do on the ground from a standing position takes having a stance that is immovable and an equal understanding of positioning from the stance. That is harder to develop.

Uhhhhhh, NO.

[naja]

I asked him once, months ago, why the difference between the way he taught and he flat out said that the vast majority was there to "do kung fu and not to fight" so why waste his time.
Perhaps some of the blame must fall on the students too...

Yea, I'm sure it does fall some on the students but when you have one that wants to fight.... geez, I dunno. Maybe the "brawler" speech was just to get me to go somewhere else. I know that most of his students would fall into the "do kung fu" group.

[naja]

Uhhhhhh, NO.

You beat me to that reply..... Sounds like someone has never done real groundwork before.

Maybe Andy should go to a local Judo club and volunteer for some newaza!! :eek:

[TenTigers]

A dozen?

Come on now. And some of those names are certainly bigger then their abilities.

no surprise to those that have been around the block. Truth be told, most of the Emperors had no clothes.

[TenTigers]

I definately believe that many Gung-Fu styles can be broken down into basic drills and sparring and give a beginner student enough of a handle on things that they can fight with it. Kicks, punches, footwork, movement, takedowns, and grappling.
After that, if the student wants something more out of their training, you can offer it.
It doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I definately believe that many Gung-Fu styles can be broken down into basic drills and sparring and give a beginner student enough of a handle on things that they can fight with it. Kicks, punches, footwork, movement, takedowns, and grappling.
After that, if the student wants something more out of their training, you can offer it.
It doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem.

No, it doesn't, which makes you wonder why it isn't done more.
Not for everyone, since TMA do tend to attract those that don't want to fight, but for those that do, why not?
On top of that I feel that a teacher has the responsibility to ask why a student is there and IF the student says they are there to learn how to protect themselves, then they should be made aware of what that entails.
If they don't like it, then they will at least be conscious that, the pussified version of kung fu they will be learning is just that, pussified.

[TenTigers]

Coach Ross seems to have things pretty worked out. He trains everyone in the same techniques, and the ones that want to go into competition, train and condition harder, with emphasis in that direction. Sounds like a pretty simple formula. Everybody gets what they want.

[rogue]

There is a cult mentality in all MA, that is a given.
We all agree that the lack of functional fighting skills is the "disease" currently eating away at TMA, and most will agree that it has very little to do with the systems themselves but what a handful of so-called "masters" have perverted said systems into being.

I agree, but it's not just the cult mentality but what kind of cult mentality that's manifest, and it really does have to do with the systems themselves as in many cases the traditions, good and bad, are part of the system and help give it identity.

[SimonM]

I'd say "buyer beware". I don't hate on the traditional- I do agree with what you guys are saying mostly 'cuz there's a lot of crap out there. But- crap isn't constrained to just "tma" anymore. The commercial success of BJJ and the UFC has led to the creation of a lot of crappy fake mcdojo MMA gyms.

Sucks doesn't it...

This is true. I saw an advert for a "MMA" dojo in St. Thomas recently that had pretty much all the hallmarks of mcdojoism.


one mans trash is another mans treasure.

At least I don't go advising people to do things like go out into the bush to pick their own herbal medicine. Idiocy of that caliber can get somebody dead!


Of course one needs proper weight distribution and balancing at all times. So does a soccer player, or baseball player. No one starts talking all crazy about deep roots and the required time it takes for a tree to reach maturity. We are not trees. We are human beings with big brains and flexible bodies.

That's the problem with Kung Fu. Making mountains out of moll hills. You don't need yoga meditation to conjure up some fantastic training method. I'll give it to you for free, right here and now: Boxing gloves and head gear.

If that's too intimidating for students to drill with, hand them an inflatable bouncing ball to play with and send them on their way. Martial arts is not for them.

You, sir, speak truth!

There, I seem to be caught up now. :D

[SimonM]

Andy I think what we are having issue with is the fact that you don't seem to consider the balance and sensitivity necessary in ground fighting. You REALLY don't just lie on your back.

Furthermore, as somebody with considerable background in stand-up wrestling I'd strongly disagree with the idea that you should be rooted like a stone. These are the people who are the easiest to uproot or to exhaust. Dynamism and mobility are absolutely essential in stand-up wrestling.

[Ray Pina]

No, I understand what you are saying perfectly clear. And I still hold fast that you're pursuing things and looking at things the wrong way.

There is no way your mantis crew is training throws, shoots, and all types of takedowns to the level that BJJ is. That is BJJ's focus.

I've been training BJJ now for about two years. I'VE NEVER BEEN SHOWN A "STANCE." Stances don't happen. Constant movement, even miniscule adjustments, happens.

You show someone how their feet should relatively be distanced and how to shuffle. We shuffle in circles one way, low, and then the other. Then alternating. We do this as warm up. There you go. You now know how to move with base.

Then we grab each other and alternate throwing each other. Now you know how to tug on someone to remove their base, load a leg with weight and then kick it out from under them. You learn how it feels, the dangers, when it's being done to you. You do it 100s of times. Just training.

All techniques are introduced that way. An arm bar from your back in the guard is trained the same way: how to set up capturing the arm, using the hips to change and get superior position, etc., etc., etc.

The learning is in the doing. This is what I love about BJJ. No $hit talking. Just shut up and do it. If you don't think it can work someone will be happy to do it to you and make you look foolish in free play all night long.

When I was teaching stand up I took a similar approach. Head gear on, boxing gloves on. Jam the lead, intercept the second while closing distance, hit. Do it 100s of times.

No need for stance talk, dragons, prayers, special medicines. Just do the thing. Here's my students first outside comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S80wD9YBKVQ

[sanjuro_ronin]

Andy I think what we are having issue with is the fact that you don't seem to consider the balance and sensitivity necessary in ground fighting. You REALLY don't just lie on your back.

Furthermore, as somebody with considerable background in stand-up wrestling I'd strongly disagree with the idea that you should be rooted like a stone. These are the people who are the easiest to uproot or to exhaust. Dynamism and mobility are absolutely essential in stand-up wrestling.

You know, I wish you'd keep that to yourself, the more people that think that "rooting" works in this context, the better.
More people to throw.

[David Jamieson]

rooting is virtually useless against percussive short power force.

[SimonM]

You know, I wish you'd keep that to yourself, the more people that think that "rooting" works in this context, the better.
More people to throw.

I like the ones who sink tonnes of energy to staying in exactly one place. I clinch and then lean all my weight on them for a little while (uness we are being reffed and the reff wants to get grouchy about non-aggression)... let them carry my weight, resist my efforts to unbalance them and stay on the defensive for a few minutes and they sort of fall over on their own. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Years ago, when I first starte dJudo I could actually "root" myself VS most throws, by noobes.
Then I started doing randori VS trained Judoka, not even BB, and I was thrown and mounted more than a prom queen on prom knight.

[SimonM]

ROTFLMFAO!

That is a disturbing simile.

[uki]

At least I don't go advising people to do things like go out into the bush to pick their own herbal medicine. why not? are you incapable of reading a field guide, do your own research, come to your own conclusions? the world system teaches that you can go and take out a student loan(which puts you in debt) in order to go to a class and learn it... i opt for learning it myself.

Idiocy of that caliber can get somebody dead!then idiots shouldn't be doing it.:p

[SimonM]

then idiots shouldn't be doing it.:p

Ergo you should not be doing it.

As for whether I can read a field guide, that is neither here nor there. Some of the people who read your advice either will not be able to or will misidentify a plant. And that can lead to deadly consequences. It's just bad advice. About the only worse advice one could issue would be to go harvest wild mushrooms for the table without consulting a properly trained mycologist.

[uki]

Ergo you should not be doing it.yeah whatever tough stuff... you shouldn't be preaching philosophy either.


As for whether I can read a field guide, that is neither here nor there. Some of the people who read your advice either will not be able to or will misidentify a plant. well hopefully they aren't idiots... otherwise mankind will be free of a few more.


And that can lead to deadly consequences.fear-mongering... being dependent can have deadlly consequences.

It's just bad advice.self-sufficiency is not bad advice.


About the only worse advice one could issue would be to go harvest wild mushrooms for the table without consulting a properly trained mycologist.speak for yourself... i am still alive and rather apt at the art. it's nice to find mushrooms that people pay upto 2000 grand a pound for... :D

[Ray Pina]

why not? are you incapable of reading a field guide, do your own research, come to your own conclusions? the world system teaches that you can go and take out a student loan(which puts you in debt) in order to go to a class and learn it... i opt for learning it myself.
then idiots shouldn't be doing it.:p

I like your thinking sometimes. Like I said, you could just be a zen master. But then you went and did something as unwise as posting pics of your family, and very dens covered property, online. Come on man. You have to be thinking more than that.

[uki]

I like your thinking sometimes.just sometimes?!?!?!?!


Like I said, you could just be a zen master. then again i could be just a little pothead dweeb trolling the internet, tossing rocks into all the stagnant puddles of water...


But then you went and did something as unwise as posting pics of your family, and very dens covered property, online. Come on man. You have to be thinking more than that.why so? i have thought long and hard about it and i have come to this conclusion... what is there to be afraid of? obviously you can align yourself with the angle of my answer.:)

[Ray Pina]

just sometimes?!?!?!?!
then again i could be just a little pothead dweeb trolling the internet, tossing rocks into all the stagnant puddles of water...
why so? i have thought long and hard about it and i have come to this conclusion... what is there to be afraid of? obviously you can align yourself with the angle of my answer.:)

OK. Good for you. You're still on it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to feel the same way, then I started sparring multiple opponents and I understood the reason behind tradition and came full circle,

At 31 sec in Charlies throwdown you were in an ideal position to sink into a stance and turn and he would be thrown down onto his head while you are standing. You would then be in a good position to kick the base of his skull. Since you don't believe in stances, you tipped. Fair enough in a grappling match, but against 2 people who want to hurt you its a grave mistake.

Cross train against two opponents and see for youself. Its as big an eye opener as the first time Royce shot for the legs and supprised everyone who thought kickboxing was the modern revolution of martial arts. In my opinion kung fu can't be expressed well kickboxing and only partially in MMA. Get team full contact and soon MMA fighters will start to look like they are doing tradtitional kung fu sets.

Simon - I never discounted balance and sensitivity on the ground, in fact I have always maintained that they are easier to develop in a grappling context than in a striking context.

BTW: My argument is the same one Plato had. He was a Pancrationist who lamented that the sport had gone to grappling due to it being one one one, but on the battlefield that focus would result in death. Traditional jujitsu is also heavilly stand up. The sport makes it safe enough to ignore the reality of combat. UFC isn't real enough. I think teams will really bring out the closest we can in a combat sport. I'm developing a rule set now. I encourage everyone to try and perhaps we can take our martial arts to the next level.

www.Imperialtao.com

IF you can't beat 1 person, what makes you think you 'll do better VS multiples ??
And Plato's issue was not the grappling, anyone that has ever done "phalanx-type" formations knows you grapple more than you strike, using the grappling to set up the strike with spear or sword.
His issue was the over-emphasis on sport to the detriment of real combat.

[Ray Pina]

At 31 sec in Charlies throwdown you were in an ideal position to sink into a stance and turn and he would be thrown down onto his head while you are standing. You would then be in a good position to kick the base of his skull. Since you don't believe in stances, you tipped. Fair enough in a grappling match, but against 2 people who want to hurt you its a grave mistake.

Just an FYI: I am nowhere in that video. I'm filming.

Charlie made a few mistakes that his teacher makes. He got caught with a decent shot coming in, missing the jam. But his aggression and forward momentum worked for him. This fight was over two years ago, right before I moved to PR. It was a now or never proposition for the handful of students I had and Charlie rose to the occasion. At the time of the film, he just turned 18 and had been training with me for a year and a half.

He showed up in the middle of NYC and fought a stranger with gentlemen rules to the tap. I'm proud of him. I'm even more proud to recently hear they are still training on their own.



Cross train against two opponents and see for youself.

We've been doing this regularly lately. The result I see, no matter who the lone man is, is that sometimes he can hang for a while, until he gets tired and then it goes downhill very quickly for them. It always ends with them on the ground, one man pulling an arm free for a break, while the other pulls on the leg for a heel hook. We do it two on one.



In my opinion kung fu can't be expressed well kickboxing and only partially in MMA. Get team full contact and soon MMA fighters will start to look like they are doing tradtitional kung fu sets.

It's always the rule set with Kung Fu. Under what rules would Kung Fu shine? Because they don't show up because of the rules for kick boxing. They don't show up to MMA because of the rules. And they never showed up to no rule Throwdowns. So you're saying gang-type fighting would be ideal? Is that it?

You think five wing chun guys would fair better against five of my teammates locked in a cage? You have got to be smoking crack.

Here it is in a nutshell: KUNG FU HAS NO POWER IN REAL USE.... BECAUSE ITS PRACTITIONERS ARE SCARED.... BECAUSE THEY TRAIN LIKE LITTLE CHILDREN ACTORS WITH FAKE WEAPONS AND MINIMUM CONTACT.

Put someone like that against a trained brute who stands in the pocket and takes shots on his shoulder with glee. Anything just to be close to the other guy to knock him senseless..... it would be a beating. And my decade of kung fu experience tells me each kung fu guy would blame the other's weak lineage and "fakeness" for the defeat.

Come on man. Wake up and smell the coffee. Look around at your fellow stylists. VERY FEW of them have the make up of unarmed combatants. Because they don't train for it. A flag football team isn't going to fair well against even a competitive High School tackle football program for the same reasons. One attracts pu$$ies looking to avoid danger, the other attracts those seeking it and hones their skills.

There's no secrets. You have to do what you want to get good at ... a lot.


the sport had gone to grappling due to it being one one one, but on the battlefield that focus would result in death. Traditional jujitsu is also heavilly stand up.

I agree with you. I long argue that a man in turtle position should be kicked in the head, elbowed to the base of the skull. It's a terrible position.



The sport makes it safe enough to ignore the reality of combat. UFC isn't real enough.
When was the last time you, one of your students or one of your training brother's students participated in this safe little game?


I think teams will really bring out the closest we can in a combat sport. I'm developing a rule set now. I encourage everyone to try and perhaps we can take our martial arts to the next level.
www.Imperialtao.com

I give you my word right now. You get five verifiable Kung Fu guys, get their official weights, and I will get four of my MMA friends and fly them to the venue of my expense.

Here's a new Buddhist coan: What's the sound of five frightened Kung Fu men tapping?

[TenTigers]

Ray, I think you are intelligent enough to realise that it isn't the style, but the training method.
It's not that Kung-Fu lacks power, it's that most don't train realistically enough to develop their power.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
There are more and more TCMA people adding realistic training into their methods, and there are some,"MMA/Kung-Fu" schools popping up. There will be more, as the trend builds momentum.
Remember, you are doing standard MMA-kickboxing with BJJ, very standard stuff. Sure, you try to utilize some of the basic structures you were taught from your brief stay with Chan Bond, but you are not doing Kung-Fu. You are doing standard MMA, as can be seen in your vids.
And it works. It works real well.
But it is only the beginning.
You are getting in on the ground floor. It is still a grassroots art, even twenty years later. Martial Arts develop over decades, generations.
Be patient.
As more and more TCMA people pick up on what the MMA people are doing, they will slowly but surely change their training methods,re-examine their tactics to fit in with grapplers and muay thai kicks, and evolve. Those that don't will fall by the wayside.
They won't throw away their art,
they will develop it further.
This is evolution.
Also remember that most TCMA were mixing different styles to begin with and MMA is nothng new. This is simply one wave, one ripple in a pond of never-ending development of Martial Arts.
Be patient, Ray.

[SimonM]

LOL for my faults I'm still a Kung Fu man... because I have a good kwoon that trains in a realistic fashion and ties to Chinese cultural activities.

That being said Andy mobility and dynamism are necessary regardless of the millieu. If you are fighting multiple opponents and you root yourself you will get slammed. You have to keep on your toes. Standing grappling helps here a bit because it gives you the opportunity to remove one opponent from the equation for a few seconds...

But again if you can't throw ONE guy in a real match you never will be able to handle TWO with those techniques.

And Ray: that might be a fun little game regardless...

I like GnP. :D

[lkfmdc]

It is NOT "what" you train

it is HOW you train

However, TCMA has come to embrace a lot of truely rediculous and ineffective methods while also shunning a lot of effective and time proven methods under banners of "tradition" and "supported" :rolleyes: by superstition, fairy tales, myths and lies

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is NOT "what" you train

it is HOW you train

However, TCMA has come to embrace a lot of truely rediculous and ineffective methods while also shunning a lot of effective and time proven methods under banners of "tradition" and "supported" :rolleyes: by superstition, fairy tales, myths and lies

Well said, and needs to be said often it seems.
By the way, are you insinuating that Iron Crotch training is ineffective???
:eek:

[MightyB]

It is NOT "what" you train

it is HOW you train

However, TCMA has come to embrace a lot of truely rediculous and ineffective methods while also shunning a lot of effective and time proven methods under banners of "tradition" and "supported" :rolleyes: by superstition, fairy tales, myths and lies

Just curious - do you still teach any CLF or Lama Pai?

[lkfmdc]

Just curious - do you still teach any CLF or Lama Pai?

That really depends upon how you define it?

Do I teach forms? NO

Do we teach line basics in the air? NO

Do we cross train wrestling, boxing, thai, jiu jitsu, sambo, etc? YES

But my fighters consistently use chyuhn, so, kahp, baahk hok tam soi, pek teui, lihn waan bouh faat, etc

My fighters consistently use the concepts of "chan", "sim", "jit", "faan", "jong", etc

[GreenCloudCLF]

Just curious - do you still teach any CLF or Lama Pai?

When I went to his training camp 2 years ago, he knew my background in Lama and CLF, and actually went out of his way to refer to techniques with the Chinese to show the correlation of his teaching with the "traditional" style I was in.

[uki]

LOL for my faults I'm still a Kung Fu man... because I have a good kwoon that trains in a realistic fashion and ties to Chinese cultural activities.and here i was under the inpression that kung fu is the manifestation of time and energy... and here it is nothing more than belonging to a realistic kwoon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

and here i was under the inpression that kung fu is the manifestation of time and energy... and here it is nothing more than belonging to a realistic kwoon.

Out of curiosity Uki, do you actually train in a MA or have you trained?

[uki]

Out of curiosity Uki, do you actually train in a MA or have you trained?it's a daily practice... recently i have been doing alot of circle stepping forms, such as holding static postures(as in pa kua) and doing two or three step circles. i train everyday to the lesser extent, on top of my masonry job(block this week). i have a utility pole instead of a heavy bag that i routinely practice elbow and open-hand strikes on... my 1000+ square foot flagstone patio is completely tailored to the martial artist; it has 12 brick columns for pa kua practice(on for each of the 12 energies). i have been practicing daily for over a decade in this lifetime alone... i was a late bloomer this time around. my core regime consists of hsing-i and pa kua methods... i am a tiger so naturally my expression is a manifestation of this... i was formally trained for several years when i was younger in what is known as northern longfist... yet my instructor(messenger) was very inclined to share a wide variety of techniques and methods from pa kua and hsing-i, aswell as the tendon exchange, 8 brocades of silk, and various jian principles, double broadsword, staff, and spear. i hope this answers some of your questions. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's a daily practice... recently i have been doing alot of circle stepping forms, such as holding static postures(as in pa kua) and doing two or three step circles. i train everyday to the lesser extent, on top of my masonry job(block this week). i have a utility pole instead of a heavy bag that i routinely practice elbow and open-hand strikes on... my 1000+ square foot flagstone patio is completely tailored to the martial artist; it has 12 brick columns for pa kua practice(on for each of the 12 energies). i have been practicing daily for over a decade in this lifetime alone... i was a late bloomer this time around. my core regime consists of hsing-i and pa kua methods... i am a tiger so naturally my expression is a manifestation of this... i was formally trained for several years when i was younger in what is known as northern longfist... yet my instructor(messenger) was very inclined to share a wide variety of techniques and methods from pa kua and hsing-i, aswell as the tendon exchange, 8 brocades of silk, and various jian principles, double broadsword, staff, and spear. i hope this answers some of your questions. :)

Yep, thanks.
Just curious.
New age freak !
:D

[TenTigers]

"New Age." Bah! I was into that when it was called "Old Age!";)

[SimonM]

"New Age." Bah! I was into that when it was called "Old Age!";)

I was into that when I was twelve. I grew out of all that silliness and embraced my atheism.

[MightyB]

I was into that when I was twelve. I grew out of all that silliness and embraced my atheism.

I say that you aren't a true atheist unless you completely embrace sociopathy.

[SimonM]

I say that you aren't a true atheist unless you completely embrace sociopathy.

I have a highly developed moral code based almost entirely on logic.

[MightyB]

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

A true atheist--- No belief in God - consequences- afterlife. Take this belief to it's fullest if you are one... meaning- You are the Universe- You must be the Universe for it lives breathes and dies as you live breath and die. There is nothing else outside of your personal existence for you to be concerned with since nothing truly exists outside of you. When you die- there is nothing- it is done- the universe is done. Why should you, Mr. Atheist, live up to anybody else's values? Social Mores do not matter-- should not matter-- nothing should stop you from experiencing the best personal universe that you can enjoy. Stop at nothing to achieve this- Give it all 'cuz it ends with you- your universe ends with you- the universe ends with you. Do not let laws, mores, ethics stop you from exploiting this universe to it's ultimate potential. Embrace your sociopathy and stop being a pu$$y and be the true atheist that you were born to be.

[MightyB]

I have a highly developed moral code based almost entirely on logic.

If this were true- Logic would dictate that you embrace sociopathy.

[SimonM]

Actually no.

Failing to show compassion for those around me is inherently unbeneficial to myself, the individuals who are important to me and to the species as a whole. Therefore sociopathy is illogical.

As for consequences: it's true. All consequences occur in the realm of the living. That being said to suggest one reject consequence to action as a denial of religion is a failure to understand the cause-effect relationship that governs consequence.

Touch something hot: experience pain.

An atheist does not have an afterlife or an invisible friend to punish the wicked. Dealing with moral issues and issues where an individual takes action that harms the collective is entirely within the sphere of life and is thus more urgent.

When I die I am gone. The universe remains. My resolution of the existentialist dilemma is to trust my senses as if my perception of the universe is at odds with the reality I will never know. My senses tell me there is a universe full of other organisms. Therefore there is.

My senses deny the existence of a god.

[MightyB]

Actually no.

Failing to show compassion for those around me is inherently unbeneficial to myself, the individuals who are important to me and to the species as a whole. Therefore sociopathy is illogical.

As for consequences: it's true. All consequences occur in the realm of the living. That being said to suggest one reject consequence to action as a denial of religion is a failure to understand the cause-effect relationship that governs consequence.

Touch something hot: experience pain.

An atheist does not have an afterlife or an invisible friend to punish the wicked. Dealing with moral issues and issues where an individual takes action that harms the collective is entirely within the sphere of life and is thus more urgent.

When I die I am gone. The universe remains.

Good Answer - But Wrong

Sounded good- and you may even believe some of it--- but- why, as an atheist should you adopt any moral code? Even if you want to elevate the conditions of those around you- you should stop only when the law threatens to take away your liberty- Morals and ethics are for those who aren't as "enlightened" as you, the true atheist. You see something- find a way to take it. This is the only "logical" conclusion.

[brianlkennedy]

As a historian of Chinese martial arts, this is an interesting question and in a sense it is easy to answer.

Most modern Chinese martial artists do not realize that the closest that Chinese martial arts ever came to dying, as in disappearing off the face of the earth, was right after the Boxer Rebellion, right at the end of the Qing dynasty. Chinese martial arts was at that point, at its absolute nadir, their absolute lowest point. The Chinese public despised Chinese martial arts, the focus was all on new western martial arts (including a martial art that many Chinese masters were very impressed by---western boxing!). Chinese martial arts was basically dead.

But then, due to the work of places like the Jing Wu Association (a.k.a. the Chin Woo) Chinese martial arts was able to reinvent itself, revive itself and live and thrive not just in China, but across the Pacific Rim and then make its way into mainstream western culture.

The Jing Wu was able to do this by making Chinese martial arts into a respectable middle class recreation. They focused on the cultural and health benefits. As to what Chinese martial arts should do in the 21st century to reinvent itself; I have no idea. My personal solution is to teach a mixed program that merges modern mixed martial arts with traditional Chinese martial arts.

But as a historian, one thing I am confident of is that Chinese martial arts will stay alive. I always think of the old Huey Louis and the News song; “the old boy maybe barely breathing, but the heart of rock and roll is still beating”. Well, the heart of traditional Chinese martial arts is still beating.

Take care,
Brian Kennedy

[SimonM]

Good Answer - But Wrong

Sounded good- and you may even believe some of it--- but- why, as an atheist should you adopt any moral code? Even if you want to elevate the conditions of those around you- you should stop only when the law threatens to take away your liberty- Morals and ethics are for those who aren't as "enlightened" as you, the true atheist. You see something- find a way to take it. This is the only "logical" conclusion.

And that would work - for a libertarian atheist. I am not.

Certainly morals and ethics become an entirely personal matter. My moral code is regulated by nobody but myself. No sky giant will punish me if I chose to do wrong. I truly am the captain of my own ship.

That being said, as captain of my own ship I am totally free to chose the course I plot.

I chose to plot a course of public service and one that would be identified by many as morally good because that is my choice to make. I adhere to it because I believe, ultimately, that independent of threat of punishment is something more valuable to me than wealth.

I trust my senses to know that an environment in which I do acts identified as morally good is a more beneficial environment for my own well-being than one in which I do acts identified as bad. Furthermore it rarely harms me to create an environment in which others can thrive.

I gain satisfaction and happiness from aiding others. There are few experiences I like more than gratitude.

To be celebrated by my peers is more pleasurable than collecting their stuff.

Also I am aware of the flow of cause and effect in the universe. Because I am I can delay gratification in the immediate in order to gain more significant gratification in the future.

Finally I believe that the only form of immortality is the continuation of my genetic material through my offspring. They may not be me but, in the end, they are what is left of me when I am gone. As such I want to shape a world that will be kind to those future people.

[MightyB]

And that would work - for a libertarian atheist. I am not.

Certainly morals and ethics become an entirely personal matter. My moral code is regulated by nobody but myself. No sky giant will punish me if I chose to do wrong. I truly am the captain of my own ship.

That being said, as captain of my own ship I am totally free to chose the course I plot.

I chose to plot a course of public service and one that would be identified by many as morally good because that is my choice to make. I adhere to it because I believe, ultimately, that independent of threat of punishment is something more valuable to me than wealth.

I trust my senses to know that an environment in which I do acts identified as morally good is a more beneficial environment for my own well-being than one in which I do acts identified as bad. Furthermore it rarely harms me to create an environment in which others can thrive.

I gain satisfaction and happiness from aiding others. There are few experiences I like more than gratitude.

To be celebrated by my peers is more pleasurable than collecting their stuff.

Also I am aware of the flow of cause and effect in the universe. Because I am I can delay gratification in the immediate in order to gain more significant gratification in the future.

Finally I believe that the only form of immortality is the continuation of my genetic material through my offspring. They may not be me but, in the end, they are what is left of me when I am gone. As such I want to shape a world that will be kind to those future people.

You Sir, are a Ch'an Buddhist. You should embrace your religion- if you cannot find a Ch'an school near you, go to a Zen- they are one in the same. You definitely are not Taoist, Tibetan Buddhist, or Atheist. Nor are you Christian, Muslim, or Jew. As a friend once told me- once you identify what your core belief system is- you should embrace it and surrender to it completely. Your moral code doesn't allow you to fully surrender to true Atheism. That's a good thing because it's so improbable, that it's statistically impossible for existence to exist in an Atheistic universe--- let alone conscious thought. So- you should learn as much about yourself as possible-- if you do some research- you'll find that your core beliefs fit the practice of Zen.

[MightyB]

Here you go SimonM: http://www.gardendigest.com/zen/ten.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't we have a religion and MA thread already ??
*hint, hint*

besides, it's no ones business what lifestyle and belief system someone chooses to follow.

[MightyB]

http://www.chungtian.org.au/ctt_chan.htm

More for you ;)

[lkfmdc]

As a historian of Chinese martial arts, this is an interesting question and in a sense it is easy to answer.

Most modern Chinese martial artists do not realize that the closest that Chinese martial arts ever came to dying, as in disappearing off the face of the earth, was right after the Boxer Rebellion, right at the end of the Qing dynasty. Chinese martial arts was at that point, at its absolute nadir, their absolute lowest point. The Chinese public despised Chinese martial arts, the focus was all on new western martial arts (including a martial art that many Chinese masters were very impressed by---western boxing!). Chinese martial arts was basically dead.

But then, due to the work of places like the Jing Wu Association (a.k.a. the Chin Woo) Chinese martial arts was able to reinvent itself, revive itself and live and thrive not just in China, but across the Pacific Rim and then make its way into mainstream western culture.

The Jing Wu was able to do this by making Chinese martial arts into a respectable middle class recreation. They focused on the cultural and health benefits. As to what Chinese martial arts should do in the 21st century to reinvent itself; I have no idea. My personal solution is to teach a mixed program that merges modern mixed martial arts with traditional Chinese martial arts.

But as a historian, one thing I am confident of is that Chinese martial arts will stay alive. I always think of the old Huey Louis and the News song; “the old boy maybe barely breathing, but the heart of rock and roll is still beating”. Well, the heart of traditional Chinese martial arts is still beating.

Take care,
Brian Kennedy

First of all, it is a pleasure and an honor to have Brian posting here. Truely makes this board worth logging onto. Of course, I have a "soft spot" for historians and think that history teaches us a lot. EVERYONE should read Brian's book on training manuals because it shows how much of what we talk about here every day were the same issues facing those "masters of the past"

I will qualify my usual "TCMA is dead" to more of what Brian has said, ie that to survive it will change. Of course, for some, those changes will mean it no longer is TCMA (ie it is dead)

An enigma wrapped in a riddle (with flan sauce on top)

[SimonM]

you sir, are a ch'an buddhist.

Shhhhh :D
123456789

[sanjuro_ronin]

First of all, it is a pleasure and an honor to have Brian posting here. Truely makes this board worth logging onto. Of course, I have a "soft spot" for historians and think that history teaches us a lot. EVERYONE should read Brian's book on training manuals because it shows how much of what we talk about here every day were the same issues facing those "masters of the past"

I will qualify my usual "TCMA is dead" to more of what Brian has said, ie that to survive it will change. Of course, for some, those changes will mean it no longer is TCMA (ie it is dead)

An enigma wrapped in a riddle (with flan sauce on top)

As long as a TMA changes within the realm of its tradtion, ie: what it was created/developed for, it will remain "traditional".

[SimonM]

So in the case of CMA what would that represent to you?

What about TCMA makes it Traditionally a Chinese Martial Art?

Lineage?
Pedagogy?
Language?
Non-martial customs?
Flourishes?
Techniques?
Theories?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So in the case of CMA what would that represent to you?

What about TCMA makes it Traditionally a Chinese Martial Art?

Lineage?
Pedagogy?
Language?
Non-martial customs?
Flourishes?
Techniques?
Theories?

It depends on why a system was developed and how.

If, for example, a system was developed to counter grappling 100 years ago and the nature of grappling has changed then, any changes to the system to keep its core tradition will not alter it from being a TMA.
If a system was created to the goal of being effective in unarmed combat then any chages that make it more effective will keep that tradition alive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lineage?
Pedagogy?
Language?
Non-martial customs?
Flourishes?
Techniques?
Theories?

If you look back at ANY TMA you will see that all of those things have changed over the years with the POSSIBLE exception of lineage.

[SimonM]

:D

Sometime you should pick up the Shambhala press edition of the Sunzi (the art of war) and read the essay on participation in a tradition. It's a good read.

[sanjuro_ronin]

:D

Sometime you should pick up the Shambhala press edition of the Sunzi (the art of war) and read the essay on participation in a tradition. It's a good read.

Its been ages since I read Sun Tzu, refresh my memory so I don't have to do it when I get home.
:p

[SimonM]

It's not in the actual text. The Shambhala Press version comes packaged with three essays on issues topical to the development and discourse of the Sunzi. Essentially it was discussing how the text was the end result of a tradition stemming from Sunzi, through his students and eventually into an evolving written record. It then drew parallels between this text and later participants in the process such as the authors of later military texts from the Ming and Qing dynasty who traced the origin of their ideas back to Sunzi, Lawrence of Arabia and the authors of a tactical manual used by the Marines (Warfighting IIRC, I may be wrong).

The essay suggested that a tradition is more a process of instruction and innovation than a static entity. Essentially a tradition is the totality of what came before and what will stem from it later.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The essay suggested that a tradition is more a process of instruction and innovation than a static entity. Essentially a tradition is the totality of what came before and what will stem from it later.

I agree.

Tradition never meant the "trappings" and the "superficial crap".
It is the core of the system.

[SimonM]

Answering the question I originally posed than the tradition of Chinese martial Arts will survive as long as there are martial artists who recognize the Chinese origin or contribution to the practice they study. :D

[Ray Pina]

It's not the style, it's the stylist... that is true.

However, when you go to a Chinese restaurant you get chicken a few ways. When you go to an Italian or Spanish restaurant you get chicken a different way. Even within their own cooking styles there may be differences, but the reason they are characterized as "Chinese" or "Italian" is because they contain certain distinguishing characteristics.

97 % of all the Chinese Kung Fu I have seen, having spent 10 years looking for good stuff in and around NYC Chinatown, competing in CMA tournaments in NY, NJ and PA... I have to say most of it is $hit. And with the few exceptions... I'm thinking Bak Mei, some modified S. Mantis.... when the technique looked sound and promising in theory, which was laid down very heavily, the training was a joke. Only the S Mantis crew sparred full out, with head gear and gloves. That was a treasure. NONE of them allowed full kicking. And these were the exceptions.

The majority was full of Long Island rich kids or well to do Manhattanites who DEFINITELY didn't want nothing to do with fighting.... yet they were perfectly comfortable enrolled at a "Kung Fu" school. No hitting. No getting hit. And the kicker is most of these guys talk crazy, about how high-level their skills are compared to lowly kick boxers. It's hilarious.

If you can find the good stuff, you are very lucky. And even then I say do yourself a HUGE favor and moonlight at a BJJ or MMA gym JUST to keep yourself honest. The bull$hit at a kwoon can be so overwhelming you can find yourself in a daze before you know it. Believing in cause without effect.... that you can somehow root your flat shoed feet into the solid earth. Even something as wise as "Be like water." Try to see if your torso handles a 12 gage round the same way a waterfall does. Hell, anyone who trains leg locks knows that sometimes "going with it" (the wrong way) breaks your own leg.

Why do Kung Fu people so willingly accept sheer foolishness that they would reject in other aspects of their life? It is baffling.

[taai gihk yahn]

Why do Kung Fu people so willingly accept sheer foolishness that they would reject in other aspects of their life? It is baffling.
many people are searching for an escape from what they perceive as the monotony of their every day lives; they think that by finding something "esoteric", it will solve the dilemma they face, which is that their "real" lives suck, but that they have no idea how to face that "reality"; so they find the practice that has the wise old Asian guy spouting enigmatic aphorisms that they can use to distract them from the "now", makes them feel part of something special, gives them an excuse to feel superior to other people they know who don't practice what they do, etc.; not to say that you won't find people looking for distraction from their lives in a BJJ (or other similar arts) school, but at least they are not replacing one facade with another, and you don't have all the Taoist esotericism that most people egregiously misunderstand either...

[bawang]

its not the crappy students fault its their teacher.

[uki]

the reason those kind of people became interested in kung fu is to imitate jackie chan movie drunken master, not to learn to fight or learn about chinese culture.
the shame is not on those people, i dont blame them i blame the people that are teaching them. if you teach good those people can get interested in real kung fu but no.real kung fu is a real investment of time and energy.


many people are searching for an escape from what they perceive as the monotony of their every day lives; they think that by finding something "esoteric", it will solve the dilemma they face, which is that their "real" lives suck, but that they have no idea how to face that "reality"; so they find the practice that has the wise old Asian guy spouting enigmatic aphorisms that they can use to distract them from the "now", makes them feel part of something special, gives them an excuse to feel superior to other people they know who don't practice what they do, etc.; not to say that you won't find people looking for distraction from their lives in a BJJ (or other similar arts) school, but at least they are not replacing one facade with another, and you don't have all the Taoist esotericism that most people egregiously misunderstand either...but why do people think their lives suck?

[taai gihk yahn]

As a historian of Chinese martial arts, this is an interesting question and in a sense it is easy to answer.

Most modern Chinese martial artists do not realize that the closest that Chinese martial arts ever came to dying, as in disappearing off the face of the earth, was right after the Boxer Rebellion, right at the end of the Qing dynasty. Chinese martial arts was at that point, at its absolute nadir, their absolute lowest point. The Chinese public despised Chinese martial arts, the focus was all on new western martial arts (including a martial art that many Chinese masters were very impressed by---western boxing!). Chinese martial arts was basically dead.

But then, due to the work of places like the Jing Wu Association (a.k.a. the Chin Woo) Chinese martial arts was able to reinvent itself, revive itself and live and thrive not just in China, but across the Pacific Rim and then make its way into mainstream western culture.

The Jing Wu was able to do this by making Chinese martial arts into a respectable middle class recreation. They focused on the cultural and health benefits. As to what Chinese martial arts should do in the 21st century to reinvent itself; I have no idea. My personal solution is to teach a mixed program that merges modern mixed martial arts with traditional Chinese martial arts.

But as a historian, one thing I am confident of is that Chinese martial arts will stay alive. I always think of the old Huey Louis and the News song; “the old boy maybe barely breathing, but the heart of rock and roll is still beating”. Well, the heart of traditional Chinese martial arts is still beating.

Take care,
Brian Kennedy

thank you for an excellent and insightful post Brian - too many folks like to tout the "real TCMA exists in the same pure, unadulterated form as when it was created thousands of years ago by Immortal Sages, and that's why it's the bestest thing ever", without any appreciation for the vagaries of Chinese history, and how it interacted with martial arts practice;

if I may suggest, one major factor in the gentrification of TCMA can be attributed to Sun Lu Tang vis-a-vis his demarcation of internal versus external and what-not: this was basically, I believe, a way to rationalize why someone from the upper classes could practice in a relatively genteel manner and still feel that he was engaged in warrior training; unfortunately, it has served to foster an attitude of smug, egocentricism amongst many so-called "internal" stylists, who look down their unbroken noses at "externalists", deriding them for relying on "only" muscle power; I mean, it's to the point where you could have an "external" guy sitting on top of and pummeling senseless an "internalist", and the internalist would come up with some sort of rationale as to why this happened that would still support his internal training as being inherently superior (usually it becomes "oh, well, he's going to have a lot of health problems in his old age if he keeps training like that" - brother, you just got your face based - doesn't that constitute a health-problem right about now?!?)

[sanjuro_ronin]

thank you for an excellent and insightful post Brian - too many folks like to tout the "real TCMA exists in the same pure, unadulterated form as when it was created thousands of years ago by Immortal Sages, and that's why it's the bestest thing ever", without any appreciation for the vagaries of Chinese history, and how it interacted with martial arts practice;

if I may suggest, one major factor in the gentrification of TCMA can be attributed to Sun Lu Tang vis-a-vis his demarcation of internal versus external and what-not: this was basically, I believe, a way to rationalize why someone from the upper classes could practice in a relatively genteel manner and still feel that he was engaged in warrior training; unfortunately, it has served to foster an attitude of smug, egocentricism amongst many so-called "internal" stylists, who look down their unbroken noses at "externalists", deriding them for relying on "only" muscle power; I mean, it's to the point where you could have an "external" guy sitting on top of and pummeling senseless an "internalist", and the internalist would come up with some sort of rationale as to why this happened that would still support his internal training as being inherently superior (usually it becomes "oh, well, he's going to have a lot of health problems in his old age if he keeps training like that" - brother, you just got your face based - doesn't that constitute a health-problem right about now?!?)

While you you have a point there, lets not forget on very vital thing:
Common sense and logic.
People are fooled because they CHOOSE to be fooled.
If some "internal" MA tells you that by standing for 20 mins you can develop chi and beat protect yourself with it, it's up to YOU to find the truth in that.
If you choose not to, that is YOUR fault.

[Ray Pina]

but why do people think their lives suck?

I would say because most people fail to live up to the potential they instinctively know is in them due to fears. But this is the beauty of life, no? Those that can face those fears, live their lives openly and honestly with confidence (con ve dio ... going with God), they get to live in the garden, right? Isn't that how it works? Or did I get the wrong user manual for this life?

[taai gihk yahn]

but why do people think their lives suck?
various reasons, some more relatively valid than others; some people are able to persevere through great adversity and come out of it with a balanced, healthy perspective; others find themselves in relatively prosperous circumstances, yet their lives are miserable; there are a thousand stories in the naked city...


While you you have a point there, lets not forget on very vital thing:
Common sense and logic.
People are fooled because they CHOOSE to be fooled.
If some "internal" MA tells you that by standing for 20 mins you can develop chi and beat protect yourself with it, it's up to YOU to find the truth in that.
If you choose not to, that is YOUR fault.
I agree - people get what they look for, albeit on a non-conscious level most of the time; otherwise, it would simply not be possible to pull the wool over so many eyes


I would say because most people fail to live up to the potential they instinctively know is in them due to fears. But this is the beauty of life, no? Those that can face those fears, live their lives openly and honestly with confidence (con ve dio ... going with God), they get to live in the garden, right? Isn't that how it works? Or did I get the wrong user manual for this life?
exactly - one can have a "sucky" life, filled with much pain and hardship, and still "choose" to come through it all without being beaten by it - but that depends on factors often undefinabe within each person...

[Lucas]

"men who try to stand on their forbearers' shoulders rather than their own feet, often find themselves shorter by a head."

i think this mindset has always been part of traditional martial arts, regardless of origin.

The moment a man fails to live according to his own accomplishments, and falls back on those of others, is the moment he begins to live a lie.

more and more people are picking up martial arts every single day. we have so many reasons for practicing martial arts now days. but the fact that there are those out there who hold as true to the traditions of combat will never change. there will always be men/women who understand that combat is ultimately about truth, and being able to seek and recognize these truths is paramount to upholding the traditions of the evolution of combat.

thats why MMA is so great.

MMA isnt against this or against that. some of the MMA guys out there may be, but MMA itself is not.

MMA follows the same tradition that any true traditional martial art always has and does. MMA just is not bound by any ethnic boundaries. Thats why, even in MMA, you have such a varying degree of skill. just like any other martial art. you have the guys that are far beyond 'the basics' and blow away the competition, then you have the guys that will never get past the basics, and will probably not make their studies a life long persuit.

its all one family

[Ray Pina]

Awesome post

[Ray Pina]

Could you film one of these sessions and post it, it sounds interesting?

As for the gang bang venue, it too sounds interesting but I'm betting it would be hard to sanction something like that. One on One MMA had its own difficulties. I wonder how governing bodies will view the first time four Team Taiji guys get tapped out and one lone Taiji guy gets left in a locked cage with five pro MMAers.

What I'd honestly like to see is bokken, bo and stick fighting, with the stylists wearing nothing more than shielded helmets, modest chest protectors and modified La Cross gloves. Broken arms and legs would be routine. But then we'd see who had the good stuff. I'm betting not too many Paul Mitchel aluminum staff black belts would be twirling around.

Lastly, these Karate and Kung Fu guys who find MMA too lax... do you have any links to their association, video of the type of fighting they are doing. It sounds like they have a very high standard. I would like to see where they've set the bar for themselves.

[Ray Pina]

Checked out your website. The following I found to be really interesting:

Step 2. Formal classes are offered 6 hours a week. Formal classes will take new trainees through careful foundation work. Durring foundation training I will carefully assess aptitude, attitude and character to see if indoor training is right for you. Based on this foundation training you may be formally invited into the indoor training.

Step 3. Indoor training. This training is for those who wish to continue, perverse and embody traditional kung fu and pass it on for future generations. Sifu trainee students learn years of information every month. Learn everything you have ever thought of in Chinese Martial arts and much more. You will be systematically brought to fighting effectiveness and develop skills that rarely exist in today’s world. You will be asked to do the impossible and following our systematic methods, you will succeed.



Q: How long will it take?
A: After proper foundation training, it is possible to complete the training in 12-15 months. Our training combines medical knowledge to work with the body’s endocrine system to allow you the strength and endurance to train for 8 hours a day while increasing your memory. Prior experience, and individual attributes will vary. The shorter the time, the more intense and the more time you will be required to put in on your own. We have systematic methods of building coordination and attributes needed for you to succeed. The details and knowledge are the keys to effectiveness; the training enables you to use them.

[Ray Pina]

Your web site combined with your posts leads me to believe that you are charging $200 Green US Dollars a month to turn American expats in China into five-on-five cage fighters in 15 months.

This sir, is simply amazing. If you didn't tell me yourself, and if your website wasn't so full of Chinese medicine and taoist insight, it would be awfully hard to swallow. I do look forward to whatever video or links you could share with me.

[Phil Redmond]

Awesome post
How far away are you from Farjardo?

[mawali]

Ray Pina noted that
these Karate and Kung Fu guys who find MMA too lax... do you have any links to their association, video of the type of fighting they are doing. It sounds like they have a very high standard. I would like to see where they've set the bar for themselves. but many of these guys do not fare well in MMA events. The few that do change their modus operandi often incorporate wrestling, shuaijiao, sambo, etc.

No doubt a well placed kick can finish an opponent!

[Ray Pina]

How far away are you from Farjardo?

Farjardo is on the NE corner of the island. I am on the NW corner at Playa Jobos. Right on the edge of the Isabela/Aguadilla border. It's probably about a 2.5 - 3 hour ride.

[Ray Pina]

Ray Pina noted that but many of these guys do not fare well in MMA events. The few that do change their modus operandi...

Yup. I'm one of them. Losing in amateur MMA has been the best thing for me as a martial artist. It exposed me to BJJ, a brilliant, healthy, fun style to train. It also also making me simplify my technique.

Some of the more complicated Kung Fu trappings work, but it's hard when you are tired and you don't know what the other guy is doing, with which leg or foot, to intercept it, move it out of the way, and then hit without being hit. The other guy is trained and at the peak of his fitness too.... or he wouldn't be there.

These guys make it sound like it's a walk in the park. I have never lost a no rules challenge match. I have never gotten beat up on the street either..... I have yet to be a sanctioned fighter. Fact is these guys are more comfortable and used to fighting. They are in great physical shape and are well prepared and trained.

[Phil Redmond]

Farjardo is on the NE corner of the island. I am on the NW corner at Playa Jobos. Right on the edge of the Isabela/Aguadilla border. It's probably about a 2.5 - 3 hour ride.
My second wife is from Ponce and I've visited there. I've wanted to visit Isabella because that where my son from my first wife is from. I have a WC brother in Farjardo that I stay with I go there. Maybe could hang out when I go to the island next time.

[Kansuke]

I was exposed to the double leg for the first time in May. I have a kick ass double-leg now.


LOL, be careful with those self-assessments!

[uki]

LOL, be careful with those self-assessments!cuz sometimes they might be true...

[Kansuke]

cuz sometimes they might be true...


It's a relative measure, and realization can sometimes be a rude shock.

[lkfmdc]

is it just me, or does the forum suddenly smell like poop? ;)

[uki]

is it just me, or does the forum suddenly smell like poop? it seems to have wafted in with your arrival... maybe you should wipe your bottom better.