What makes you a Shaolin

[David Jamieson]

?

Besides the martial art you practice, what makes you in particular a bonafide shaolin practitioner?

[LFJ]

proper cultivation of spirit is a requirement.

shaolin is first and foremost a buddhist monastery, not a martial arts school.

[David Jamieson]

fair enough.

[sha0lin1]

?

Besides the martial art you practice, what makes you in particular a bonafide shaolin practitioner?


That is a good question. There a thousands of schools out there that claim they are teaching Shaolin Kung Fu. If you say bonafide then that to me would mean the ability to trace your school or styles lineage back to Shaolin Temple. But then again, all of these schools that claim they are teaching Shaolin Kung Fu usually do this. Since record keeping is more of a modern thing this presents some difficulty. Also with the number of times the Shaolin Temple and its Satelites were destroyed and burnt to the ground it presents opportunities for any yahoo out there to make up their own lineage making it very hard to disprove their claims. Shaolin Kung Fu does have its own flavor and if you see similarities between what a school is teaching and the traditional forms that have survived and are being practiced at Shaolin today then that may be an indication that what you are practicing is truly a Shaolin art.

[SimonM]

Zazen meditation?

[Lucas]

iron crotch?

[David Jamieson]

Zazen meditation?

zuò chán. this is key as well as the moving zen which is of course exercises of great variety. I agree.

[David Jamieson]

iron crotch?

a small part, no pun intended. :D sure, I agree

But this is only one kung and not everyone has it and for sure not everyone wants to practice it. It's become popular though. probably due to Gene's persistance with getting it out there. So to speak. :p

[jimmi555]

iron crotch?

That is a good one lol very funny

[WinterPalm]

What about tinfoil swords?:D

[SimonM]

What about tinfoil swords?:D

Death to tinfoil swords!

[David Jamieson]

so, uh... I had hoped this thread would take a different tack, but, oh well. :p

[uki]

so, uh... I had hoped this thread would take a different tack, but, oh well. sometimes the rarest of trees are discovered simply by wandering the little forest.

[Lucas]

for me, personally, in regards to Shaolin martial arts;

I simply refer, say, write, view, etc. myself to be a practitioner of Shaolin arts. Not a Shaolin practitioner.

Im of the opinion that to be a Shaolin practitioner, you must be at Shaolin....well, practicing.

Otherwise you may practice Shaolin arts, maybe even be Buddhist, but that would be like saying you are a cowboy because you ride a horse and wear the hat.

But we all know most real cowboys are dead, and the few left alive could teach anyone a thing or two about what it means to be a cowboy.

Even if you are the best rider and rodeo guy around, wont make you a cowboy, just means your the best at riding a horse.


btw, i dont have a thing for cowboys, it was just the first thing that popped into my head.

[Lucas]

there are some monks out there that have branched out and have schools in other places. a couple in america.

assuming the monks are continuing with all of their practices, and were actually trained at shaolin, i would consider them Shaolin practitioners. But I would consider their students practitioners of Shaolin arts. Unless they are adopting everything that comes with being trained AT Shaolin

[uki]

btw, i dont have a thing for cowboys, it was just the first thing that popped into my head.the unconscious mind is a force to be reckoned with.

[Lucas]

the unconscious mind is a force to be reckoned with.

brokeback what?

:p

[Wildwoo]

?

Besides the martial art you practice, what makes you in particular a bonafide shaolin practitioner?

My ability to perform Contemporary while claiming to be Traditional all the while maintaining a blank face and a bald head :D:D

[bawang]

without chan, its just north taizu fist. without wu, its just a boring and weird dance

[uki]

without chan, its just north taizu fist. without wu, its just a boring and weird danceand with out you to practice it, there would be no kung fu to express thru it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

?

Besides the martial art you practice, what makes you in particular a bonafide shaolin practitioner?

Shaved head, silly robes and rust resistent crotch.

[BentMonk]

?

Besides the martial art you practice, what makes you in particular a bonafide shaolin practitioner?

IMO Shaolin is an ideal, not a label. For me being Shaolin means constantly trying to perfect the techniques I know. It means keeping my mind open so that I am always learning. It means making every effort to maximize my own physical, mental, and spiritual potential. Of course these things are not exclusive to Shaolin. Some Shaolin warriors of old were just living examples of the things I mentioned. Some of them were also ruthless criminals, but that's a topic for another discussion.

[richard sloan]

?

Besides the martial art you practice, what makes you in particular a bonafide shaolin practitioner?

there are some monks at Shaolin who train in Ch'an, and do not pursue martial arts.

what's the difference.

[David Jamieson]

there are some monks at Shaolin who train in Ch'an, and do not pursue martial arts.

what's the difference.


maybe so, but not the subject of the topic. :)

[uki]

*munching popcorn and enjoying the show*

[achien]

Yup, i agree that shaolin kungfu is consist of wu (martial aspect), yi (medicine aspect), and chan (enlightment aspect).

[richard sloan]

maybe so, but not the subject of the topic. :)

yes but point being the original premise of the definition being sought is actually not complete or accurate...

[David Jamieson]

yes but point being the original premise of the definition being sought is actually not complete or accurate...

Please start another thread then if you feel this way. I think it's a pretty cut and dried question but would be happy to discuss what shaolin means to you in another thread about that topic. :)

[David Jamieson]

Yup, i agree that shaolin kungfu is consist of wu (martial aspect), yi (medicine aspect), and chan (enlightment aspect).

so this is what you consider to be your connection to being shaolin?

[richard sloan]

...I think it's a pretty cut and dried question but would be happy to discuss what shaolin means to you in another thread about that topic. :)

I think this thread is sufficient, and there is sufficient proof in the pudding to show you need to expand your definition to suit what the reality of Shaolin is, it's not my opinion of what Shaolin is.

Does that make sense?

[BentMonk]

I think this thread is sufficient, and there is sufficient proof in the pudding to show you need to expand your definition to suit what the reality of Shaolin is, it's not my opinion of what Shaolin is.

Does that make sense?

"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to, depend entirely upon our point of view." - Obi Wan Ken-obi

The term Shaolin has been reinvented so many times over the centuries. It is now IMO a term used to embody all of the mythical abilities within TCMA training. The term is more an icon now, as opposed to the, who is and who isn't "real" Shaolin. There are current teachers in TCMA that I would consider to have excellent lineage. I think the point of this thread was to discuss what Shaolin means from your point of view. How has practicing what you consider to be "Shaolin" altered your approach to your training vs. say if you had studied traditional Muay Thai? Saying you are "Shaolin" is as much an inspirational practice, as it is a documented fact. But, this is just my point of view. :D

[richard sloan]

"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to, depend entirely upon our point of view." - Obi Wan Ken-obi



That may be, but I can state and anyone can empirically verify that any given triangle has three sides. That is a truth which does not depend on one's subjective point of view.

So far there is a lot of stick whacking going on.

[BentMonk]

That may be, but I can state and anyone can empirically verify that any given triangle has three sides. That is a truth which does not depend on one's subjective point of view.

So far there is a lot of stick whacking going on.

That is my point exactly. There is no one unquestionable, indisputable, absolutely positively "True Shaolin" anymore. The authenticity of lineages that claim connection to "True Shaolin" is constantly debated in China, the U.S. and anywhere else more than three people have heard of TCMA. The "truth" concerning Shaolin as it exists today, doesn't settle the debate either. It it is a creation of the PRC, and not as old or genuine as the ideal that the term Shaolin embodies. At it's best Shaolin refers to a high standard of excellence one could aspire to in order to continually push towards mastery of body and self. At it's worst Shaolin is a term that uses naive fascination with Chinese mythology to make a profit. Show me. Don't tell me. I train where I do because I have seen, not been told about the abilities of my instructors. Their concept of "Shaolin" and mine are alike. They walk their Shaolin talk. I don't need some ancient scroll to tell me I study Shaolin. I don't need some historian to validate my school's lineage. I've used what I have learned, and it worked great. It's also made me a better person as a whole. That's all the validation I think anyone should need from the MA they choose to study. JMO :D

[richard sloan]

... There is no one unquestionable, indisputable, absolutely positively "True Shaolin" anymore.


the ONLY way to make this statement, is out of ignorance. Which means your point is not mine. A Shaolin monk should have provable knowledge of Ch'an Buddhism, according to their sect, knowledge internal to the sect which is knowable to other members, and should be exposed at the very least to Shaolin Gong fu if not exhibit mastery or proficiency, should be a member in a traceable lineage that predates at the very least, the 1928 Shi You San attacks- and when you look for these triangles you find, and it isn't that hard actually, that such triangles do in fact exist- despite whatever people might choose to believe or disbelieve- and they do in fact exhibit such knowledge. There is zero way any secular government could recreate esoteric Buddhist knowledge to the degree needed to pass the litmus test, nor could there be any provable motivation.

NONE of the actor monks have need of this kind of information and people STILL think they are the 'full deal.' So for the sake of the theory that the government recreated the Shaolin Temple, they clearly did. And to anyone who knows, no performance monk can hold a candle to, their existence and the existence of all the other shams, that does not delegitimize the recipients of the true transmissions. I have met several troops of these wushu players, they don't know the first thing- usually- about Ch'an. In fact I've taught them a few things!!!

Serious scholarly work has in fact been done, and while the current state of the temple may not help the case for these legitimate lineages existing in the public's collective mind, and of course the public arena especially as occupied by those without the necessary credentials to even offer a valuable opinion, is rife with debates and opinions, what are they worth?

They aren't worth jack ****.

The "debate" such as it is, doesn't even exist in Shaolin itself, or the surrounding area of temples and such, where many of these monks are well known and in fact many, like Xing Zhen, were precepted by their abbots. Can we really, seriously, truly expect the average Shaolin aficionado to know Xing Zhen's lineage and history? how would anyone find such information, if they did not go to the source, understand how to find out the information, and a host of other problems which need to be surmounted.



... I train where I do because I have seen, not been told about the abilities of my instructors. Their concept of "Shaolin" and mine are alike. They walk their Shaolin talk. I don't need some ancient scroll to tell me I study Shaolin. I don't need some historian to validate my school's lineage. I've used what I have learned, and it worked great. It's also made me a better person as a whole. That's all the validation I think anyone should need from the MA they choose to study. JMO :D

Nothing you have stated here is exactly relevant to my point at all.

I'm happy for you? Plenty of legitimate Shaolin lineages have left the temple? As you say.

I'm happy you have found a good place and have become a good person. This can be said of any number of disciplines and practices, from playing chess to knitting, to joining a bridge club.

It doesn't change the fact that EVERY triangle has 3 sides, and it is not up to the triangle to fall over itself to SHOW YOU it's angles and shape.

[BentMonk]

I'm glad that you have all this knowledge, and I'm happy it makes you secure in your argument. I'm not as ignorant as you might think. I just feel that Shaolin is to most people, an ideal rather than something that needs to be supported through documentation, and "litmus tests". The whole "real vs. not real" Shaolin argument is IMO, no different than Rep. vs. Dem. Ford vs. Chevy, or a religious debate. Both sides are completely convinced that they are right, and the other is wrong. Both sides can present mountains of "documented proof" that supports their argument. Despite all of this "proof" neither side will budge on their position. The whole thing becomes a merry-go-round. The OP was, "What makes YOU a Shaolin?" not, how much proof do you have that you're Shaolin. Sometimes merry-go-rounds are fun... for a while, and I do like a good debate. I'll ride this one at least 'til I get bored. :D

[David Jamieson]

There are a lot of ways to regard how many sides a triangle has.

if it is 2 dimensional and consists of lines, then it has three sides outside, and three sides in! plus a top side! that's seven! :) Or, it can even be said to have nothing more than an inside and an outside.

If its 3 dimensional it has 5 sides!

and so on.

you could stretch your head.

It is important to acknowledge where information you have be given has come from. I agree. Not so much that you have a piece of paper. More so that you have demonstrable understanding.

The buddhism aspect is a sect all it's own, the martial arts aspect, not so much. because of diaspora over time, shaolin methods and ways have spread far and wide.

It is safe to say as well that even someone who lives or lived their entire life in the temple at any time in its history does not have the body of knowledge that is available through it.

Even more so now after 1500 years of accumulating said knowledge and spreading it to every continent on the planet. And it is changing in every iteration it has become.

No 2 monks are the same in what they know or what they teach or even how they teach. There can be a defined curriculum I suppose for everyone to delve into, but if the goal is to make it a lifestyle, is a curriculum enough?

most lines of teaching lean towards giving up whatever it was you learned and keep the principles intact more so than patterned memories .

So, if one is actively using the methods on whatever level, why cannot they be shaolin or at least be able to acknowledge that aspect of them self?

[TenTigers]

I can play the theme song to "Kung-Fu" on the recorder.

[Songshan]

No 2 monks are the same in what they know or what they teach or even how they teach. There can be a defined curriculum I suppose for everyone to delve into, but if the goal is to make it a lifestyle, is a curriculum enough?

Interesting statement. I can tell from experience I have trained under a 32nd generation monk and a 34th generation monk. The two teaching styles are different. The 34 gen monk has explained it to me in this regards...."this is new shaolin" when I asked him why were certain excercises and movements different. He referred to my beginnings as "old shaolin".

I say the curriculum is just the outline or the guide for you to follow. The goal of making it a lifestyle is up to the practitioner. Some never see past the outline.


... There is no one unquestionable, indisputable, absolutely positively "True Shaolin" anymore.

From who's view? Ford or Chevy's? I disagree with this also. richard sloan adressed this quite well. The wushu players, demo tours, actor monks, even broadway does not "delegitimize the recipients of the true transmissions". So because all of these exist today at Shaolin doesn't mean a big red rubber VOID stamp is slammed on Shaolin.


Besides the martial art you practice, what makes you in particular a bonafide shaolin practitioner?

To answer this question I say it's the way of life you live. To me shaolin symbolizes good, justice, martial arts and buddhism. I do the best to incorporate this into my everyday life, even on the job. Though my buddhism learning has a big need for improvement.

[Hendrik]

禪拳如一









.....................

[David Jamieson]

禪拳如一









.....................

care to translate that or risk having it transliterated. :)

Only fair as this is an english forum. I mean, I could, but it might not have the same context as what you are trying to say with the statement.

[Hendrik]

care to translate that or risk having it transliterated. :)

Only fair as this is an english forum. I mean, I could, but it might not have the same context as what you are trying to say with the statement.



Simply, Zen and martial art are non dual.

[Egg fu young]

sufficient proof in the pudding


Great now I want pudding.

[David Jamieson]

Simply, Zen and martial art are non dual.

ok, but we, each of us are. we cannot be anything but subjective about ourselves or any observations we make about ourselves or anything.

It is within our very nature of being to be dualistic in our approach to all things.

Even in zen there are sayings like "how can you know darkness if you have never experienced light?" and things of this sort which point at our dualistic nature in order to further understand them.

In martial art, how can you know martial art if you never express yourself martially? Another example of where dualism is key to our understanding of ourselves.

In and of themselves, perhaps so, but in context to human usage, they are anything but singular.

[richard sloan]

Even in zen there are sayings like "how can you know darkness if you have never experienced light?" and things of this sort which point at our dualistic nature in order to further understand them.

not exactly.

you have to be careful...ch'an is intuitive and this is where a lot of people get tripped up.

[Hendrik]

not exactly.

you have to be careful...ch'an is intuitive and this is where a lot of people get tripped up.



Some just love to spin thier mind and keep spinning and spinning...

[David Jamieson]

not exactly.

you have to be careful...ch'an is intuitive and this is where a lot of people get tripped up.

People get tripped up in the ideas of zen all the time. Like taoism, the more you chase understanding of the way, the further away it (understanding) goes.

Please forgive me for refusing to discuss zen any further than only the superficial. It is an excruciatingly wasteful exercise from my point of view to do so and I simply stopped doing it some time ago. :)

[Hendrik]

zen and martial art are non dual is a state.

That is one's original state before all those mind recogniction, differentiation, trying to control.....etc were evoke of created.

It is NOt an idea,
It is Not a thought, Not a philosophy. Not something to think about. Not some point of view. It is an Original state every living being shared all day long but most dont recognized.



In that state, it is NON ego, NoN time, NoN winning, Non Losing, Non Enermy...

It is a state of "there originally not a thing , how can one collect dust?" -- six patriac suttra.


Thus, One cant get there by spinning the mind. One got to get there by dropping the thoughts.


That is the soul of Shao Lin, that is the reason Shao Lin is not Wu Dang.

[richard sloan]

If its 3 dimensional it has 5 sides!

and so on.



to be specific since we are discussing definitions that is no longer quite a 'triangle' but some kind of polyhedra like a tetrahedron.



So, if one is actively using the methods on whatever level, why cannot they be shaolin or at least be able to acknowledge that aspect of them self?

I don't see why they can't? But why can't their part of the pie be known to be mushroom as opposed to the other half of the pizza which is black olives and onions.

[David Jamieson]

to be specific since we are discussing definitions that is no longer quite a 'triangle' but some kind of polyhedra like a tetrahedron.



I don't see why they can't? But why can't their part of the pie be known to be mushroom as opposed to the other half of the pizza which is black olives and onions.

1.) yes, geometry is awesome!

2.) i believe that is how it is?

further to #2. What is at shaolin now, in the here and now is what is actually and truly "shaolin". By definition, geographical location, etc. But, with the diaspora of Shaolin, to zen in japan, kungfu in Taishan or Hong Kong or the rest of the world outside that has some of those seeds and in some respects, a whole vaults worth of seeds including some varities that were once within the monastery but are no longer.

I'm sure most people recognize their half of the pizza is mushrooms, but at the same time, it's the same pizza despite the placement of the toppings. :)

[richard sloan]

then you see my point.

[David Jamieson]

then you see my point.

somewhat, although I don't think I share the view that Shaolin is "only" what is at teh temple or sanctioned by the temple. I think the temple of Shaolin now is entirely new and mostly created for tourism and money and to fill a void created by desire.

whereas, the diaspora type is undertaken by choice, adopted as a lifestyle by some and has the opportunity to go much deeper and further than what is possible in the temple as it is now.

there are restrictions being in China and under the auspices of the PRC after all that are not present in countries that have more freedoms.

So, in that sense, it is not a question of which is better or more authentic, but rather, which part of it effects each of us who undertake to practice and at what point do you feel that you are becoming what it is you practice to be?

[Songshan]

somewhat, although I don't think I share the view that Shaolin is "only" what is at teh temple or sanctioned by the temple. I think the temple of Shaolin now is entirely new and mostly created for tourism and money and to fill a void created by desire.

whereas, the diaspora type is undertaken by choice, adopted as a lifestyle by some and has the opportunity to go much deeper and further than what is possible in the temple as it is now.

there are restrictions being in China and under the auspices of the PRC after all that are not present in countries that have more freedoms.

So, in that sense, it is not a question of which is better or more authentic, but rather, which part of it effects each of us who undertake to practice and at what point do you feel that you are becoming what it is you practice to be?

Try telling that to the 50,000 plus practitioners that train & live in Deng Feng. It is their lifestyle. Most of what is debated on these forums or criticized by others about modern Shaolin are the parts that effect those who undertake to practice. They are becoming what they practice to be. Shaolin Kung Fu just doesn't have a deeper meaning for those who live there. Not to mention there are lots and lots of monks or potential monks that never leave Shaolin or get a chance to go tour.

I understand this thread wasn't meant for a authenticity debate but it is a reason why it is a touchy subject. Practitioners of other styles will relate their feelings but so will the Songshan Shaolin followers too. Usually it will end up to a finger pointing match. To some outside of shaolin they say it's fake and for those that have lived, trained or spent lots of time from the monks that leave there will always offer a different view.

[David Jamieson]

Try telling that to the 50,000 plus practitioners that train & live in Deng Feng. It is their lifestyle. Most of what is debated on these forums or criticized by others about modern Shaolin are the parts that effect those who undertake to practice. They are becoming what they practice to be. Shaolin Kung Fu just doesn't have a deeper meaning for those who live there. Not to mention there are lots and lots of monks or potential monks that never leave Shaolin or get a chance to go tour.

I understand this thread wasn't meant for a authenticity debate but it is a reason why it is a touchy subject. Practitioners of other styles will relate their feelings but so will the Songshan Shaolin followers too. Usually it will end up to a finger pointing match. To some outside of shaolin they say it's fake and for those that have lived, trained or spent lots of time from the monks that leave there will always offer a different view.


Fair enough. Although I personally would hesitate to make such hard divisions.
What is at Shaolin now is valid. I don't have any qualms with it at all.
What is available through the traditional lineages and that has been removed from the temple over the years is also valid.

What is built o deception and lies is not valid and is not what is being addressed here. We all know that exists. It's not important though. At least, not to me. :)