Do you Know where it is?

[hskwarrior]

Evidence of the Hung Society is found all over the Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut within our lineage. I didn't know this until I really started paying attention to the Hung Mun, although my sifu has been a member for something like 40 years, and is still a recognized elder within the hung mun. But after learning where the Hung Mun elements are, it has me interested in other systems.

This question qoes out to ALL southern systems. The Hung Society was majorly influential then, and most systems DO carry some indication of it.

Do you know where YOUR Hung influence is?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you know where YOUR Hung influence is?


Dude, you are making this too easy !
LOL !

On a serious note, I do Hung Kuen, its kind of obvious.

[hskwarrior]

See, I don't know Hung Gar, and I don't know how or if any of you know where your "Hung Mun Secret Society" elements were.

for instance what in Hung Gar will tell someone you are from the Hung Mun?

Im only asking because I don't know. I mean, i know where the Hung Mun elements are in my Hung Sing CLF, and since i don't know chan family clf, i don't know where theirs is.

so sanjuro ronin,

if i were to be watching you, what are the signals in your gung fu that would tell me you are Hung Mun?

[sanjuro_ronin]

See, I don't know Hung Gar, and I don't know how or if any of you know where your "Hung Mun Secret Society" elements were.

for instance what in Hung Gar will tell someone you are from the Hung Mun?

Im only asking because I don't know. I mean, i know where the Hung Mun elements are in my Hung Sing CLF, and since i don't know chan family clf, i don't know where theirs is.

so sanjuro ronin,

if i were to be watching you, what are the signals in your gung fu that would tell me you are Hung Mun?

I will have to get back to you because I am too bust LMAO off at what you just wrote !
:D

[hskwarrior]

well thats cool, i did exactly as you did when you said you met Lau Bun with you father. Now, that was a real knee slapper. so i guess we're on the same page then.

but the question is.......are you going to skirt the question and keep laughing, acting as if you do KNOW something (kinda like the lau bun thing) or are you going to contribute to it?

i have a sneaky feeling you are like bowels ready to blow hot air.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Supposedly, legend has that Hung Ga/Kuen was the orginal MA of choice of the Hung Mun.
Thing like the low stances, certain hand formations and the "kim yueng ma" stance, are suppose to be "typical" of Hung Mun MA.
But I never paid much attention to that stuff to be truthful.

[hskwarrior]

anyways, I am speaking about what hand postures, not horse stances.

I will give a little, within our Hung Sing lineage is a crane's beak, and the cranes beak done in a certain way tells a Hung Mun member that you or your system is a Hung Mun related school.

Sanjuro, there are certain tell tale signs that we ALL over look, even me until i started doing my research. I was like, WTF? THAT'S a HUNG MUN THING? You mean i've been doing it all along?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tell me, how, when you are a year younger than me, did you ever get to meet a man that died 2 years before you were born?

WHAT ???
Dude...are we talking about the same thing here??

[sanjuro_ronin]

well thats cool, i did exactly as you did when you said you met Lau Bun with you father. Now, that was a real knee slapper. so i guess we're on the same page then.

but the question is.......are you going to skirt the question and keep laughing, acting as if you do KNOW something (kinda like the lau bun thing) or are you going to contribute to it?

i have a sneaky feeling you are like bowels ready to blow hot air.

I think you have me mistake for some one else.

[hskwarrior]

so, im confused now. :confused:

I asked you "what HUNG MUN elements" such as hand signals, or things we thought were techniques......but were actually a secret meaning within the form.

But, you mention horse stances.

What i mean is like the "1 finger to the sky" thing. or other postures.

for example, a downwards cross block with palms facing your body. we all may see it as a technique, but it is a call signal for the hung mun. its all there. i was just seeing if anyone was up to discussing it.

i wasn't out to make you bust out lmao or anything.:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

so, im confused now. :confused:

I asked you "what HUNG MUN elements" such as hand signals, or things we thought were techniques......but were actually a secret meaning within the form.

But, you mention horse stances.

What i mean is like the "1 finger to the sky" thing. or other postures.

for example, a downwards cross block with palms facing your body. we all may see it as a technique, but it is a call signal for the hung mun. its all there. i was just seeing if anyone was up to discussing it.

i wasn't out to make you bust out lmao or anything.:(

I never mentioned Lau Bun or meeting anyone with my father...
I really think you are mistaking me for someone else.

[hskwarrior]

sanjuro, '

you're right, wrong RONIN.....it was once ronin i was speaking of. my bad.

but still, you aren't helping me out here bro.

ever since i found out what was Hung Mun in our stuff, now i want to see other southern systems and what theirs are.

we aren't in a revolution, so no need to hide this stuff.

[hskwarrior]

specifically,

what im looking for is YOUR SECRET CALL SIGNS that are located within your forms, that would tell a hung mun member that you too are of the Hung Mun.

I would tell more, but i don't want people all of a sudden inserting it then saying "oh yeah, we got THAT too."

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro, '

you're right, wrong RONIN.....it was once ronin i was speaking of. my bad.

but still, you aren't helping me out here bro.

ever since i found out what was Hung Mun in our stuff, now i want to see other southern systems and what theirs are.

we aren't in a revolution, so no need to hide this stuff.

No problem.
I never pais that much attention to the hand signs and stuff, kiu Sao and a few others are suppose to have hidden Hung Mun meanings, even our dragon claw is supposedly one too.
I take these things with a grain of salt when all is said and done...

[hskwarrior]

of course, it really has nothing to do with fighting.

but, since i've been heavily researching the Hung Mun, I've been noticing that secret call signs were all over my choy lee fut. I knew there was a connection, but not to how deep.

But since, i have been researching, many things have come to light. Our history is my passion, so in my freetime i trace our lineage, roots, and what not. bUT WHEN im training or training my guys, i focus on the fighting aspect of our gung fu.

as i said earlier, what i thought were just techniques, were actually secret call signs allowing another member gung fu or otherwise to recognize you as part of the family.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are a few signs in out Tiger-crane form, but supposedly there are many in the Iron Wire.
Again, never really focused that much on that part of it.
Kiu Sao may have been a sign, but it is an even better hand position for strenghtening the forearm muscles

[TenTigers]

the entire bow is a call sign. The hands form the sun and moon, the character 'Ming," used by members to indentify themselves as ming loyalists.
"Our hearts are for the Ming Dynasty (or Ming emperor-the dragon and tiger frepresenting the emperor as well)Warrior and priest fight together, side by side they pull their country back.

[hskwarrior]

thanks TT,

now thats what I'm talking about. however, if you know those call signs, my sifu's feels you should go down to your local chapter of the Hung Mun and join them. :D

[TenTigers]

yeah, but I teach that in my school, so I would have to bring the whole school down to the lodge!

[hskwarrior]

the hung mun revolutionary stuff is all over my system, from the way we bow, to the way the hands are held in the bow, and certain hand postures within techniques are all found within the forms. i never knew this until i came across hung mun material that showed them.

[Infrazael]

Interesting.

[David Jamieson]

what does the hung muhn do today to benefit the greater society?

many hung kuen players pay homage through the entirity of their school bows and many people who teach those sets are not members of the society nor have they ever been and on top of that, a great deal of people have no idea what is with all the hand signs and gestures etc etc.

but, to my original question, and i ask, because i would need to see some value of joining a society of any sort, especially a secret one (which I don't actually agree with in principle).

so what do they do that warrants joinging them outside of the context of hidden call signs in your kungfu practice that most people don't know what it means beyond representing the school they learned it from?

[TenTigers]

HSK can tell you of how HM is actively supporting the Chinese community and fights for rights of Chinese Immigrants. I know that the Hung Ching in NYC works very hard at giving the youth a place where they can do various athletic activities. The NYC Hung Ching has a Gung-Fu school and Lion Dance team that is excellent. Giving youth pride and self-esteem is a major tool for keeping them away from peer pressure.

[hskwarrior]

david,

great question. I have a great answer.

what does the hung muhn do today to benefit the greater society?

I can only speak about the Hung Mun in SF. Under the guidance of Dragon Head Raymond Chow, who is doing what he can to revive some of the older Hung Mun traditions is ALL ABOUT COMMUNITY. as you will see in this link here (http://supremelodge.zoomshare.com/2.html) when CNN's anchor man (kafferty i think... i know, wrong spelling) made some seriously negative comments about the Chinese, the Hung Mun protested out in front of the CNN station in SF.

If there is a problem within the community, the SF Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong, which is the first and oldest tong in the United States (est. 1849) is going to stand up and fight for the rights of the Chinese.

so what do they do that warrants joinging them outside of the context of hidden call signs in your kungfu practice

That would have to be answered by You. For myself, Professor Lau Bun, Jew Leong, and My sifu are all elders within THIS Hung Mun. I have been representing them in lion dance performances since i first joined. PHOCK, i was stupid shocked when the Dragon Head Raymond Chow admitted to me that he's known who i was way back when I was skinny.

For me, it's tradition. My sifu has brought me into depths of C-town that most outsiders will NEVER get to see. and i said MOST, i know there will always be some who will jump on the bandwagon. But, my purposes for being a member of Hung Mun are purely traditional.

[hskwarrior]

Thanks TT. you got to that point before i did.

And, TT is correct. Human Rights, Community, and tradition is what the Hung Mun are about today.

some will ask, "how did they let your white arse in there?" well, can i get a show of hands of the people who knew that in australia in the 1950's there was an ALL WHITE Hung Mun? It died out somehow, but it's true. My white arse is guilty by association. I have been around them, and at first indirectly a member through my sifu. But after meeting the Dragon Head Raymond Chow, and him already knowing me and that I completely support the Chinese community every time for most of my life.......well.......

Again, for me it's traditional. Not just because all my elders here in sf are members. but to be completely real, The Ghee Kung Tong is the 'GREEN GRASS MONK'S LODGE." My book (when it's final) will go deeper into what I am saying here. I just don't want to spill the beans here. But, my book will tell you things about the green grass monk that NO OTHER CLF person ever has. That is why I was so upset that DFW began claiming that Choy Fook was the Green Grass Monk.

For one, Choy Fook couldn't be the Green Grass Monk because he was a devout buddhist, just like chan heung. But, the Green Grass Monk IS the "Triad" side of the Hung Mun.

[hskwarrior]

[2] The word Hong (洪) is the evolution of the word Han (漢). By taking out the two radicals of Zhong (中) and Tu (土) from the middle of Han (漢), the new word which ultimately becomes Hong (洪). That means the Han People had lost their land (Zhong Tu 中土) and they must organize themselves under the banner of Hong (洪) to gain back their land (中土), that is against the Qing Government (清朝), Fan Qing Fu Ming (反清復明) or Oppose the Qing and Recover the Ming. Hong Wu (洪武) was the name of the era during the reign of Emperor Tai Zu Zhu Yuanzhang (太祖皇帝朱元璋 1368AD to 1398AD), the first Emperor of Ming Dynasty (明朝 1368AD to 1644AD).

[David Jamieson]

Do they call themselves Chinese free masons where you are or do they actually keep the name Hung Muhn?

[Gru Bianca]

[2] The word Hong (洪) is the evolution of the word Han (漢). By taking out the two radicals of Zhong (中) and Tu (土) from the middle of Han (漢), the new word which ultimately becomes Hong (洪). That means the Han People had lost their land (Zhong Tu 中土) and they must organize themselves under the banner of Hong (洪) to gain back their land (中土), that is against the Qing Government (清朝), Fan Qing Fu Ming (反清復明) or Oppose the Qing and Recover the Ming. Hong Wu (洪武) was the name of the era during the reign of Emperor Tai Zu Zhu Yuanzhang (太祖皇帝朱元璋 1368AD to 1398AD), the first Emperor of Ming Dynasty (明朝 1368AD to 1644AD).

Would you be so kind to highlight where the radical tu (土) is found in the character han (漢)?

Thank you

[hskwarrior]

They still call themselves Freemasons, however, the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong has been considered freemasons for a very long time now. more so than others.

and sorry gru, but if you look close, its in there......i just am not able to tell you how.

[hskwarrior]

漢.............

[Gru Bianca]

and sorry gru, but if you look close, its in there......i just am not able to tell you how.[/QUOTE]

I must be mistaken then cause I was under the impression that in 漢 below the 中is the character 夫.

Regards

[TenTigers]

the two han ji are connected. It's just a little creative license, but things like that are done all the time.

[once ronin]

They ho kit or poem that goes with my loi baat moon in Hop Ga has all Hung Moon phrases.

The positions on the ground equals 15 all the way around.

[CFT]

[2] The word Hong (洪) is the evolution of the word Han (漢). By taking out the two radicals of Zhong (中) and Tu (土) from the middle of Han (漢), the new word which ultimately becomes Hong (洪). That means the Han People had lost their land (Zhong Tu 中土) and they must organize themselves under the banner of Hong (洪) to gain back their land (中土), that is against the Qing Government (清朝), Fan Qing Fu Ming (反清復明) or Oppose the Qing and Recover the Ming. Hong Wu (洪武) was the name of the era during the reign of Emperor Tai Zu Zhu Yuanzhang (太祖皇帝朱元璋 1368AD to 1398AD), the first Emperor of Ming Dynasty (明朝 1368AD to 1644AD).Seems analogous to numerology to me. The original post (http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=1&i=6753&t=6731) suggests that is the case.

洪 is a phono-semantic compound (形聲字) of the water radical and the phonetic indicator 共 (gung). The water radical gives the meaning of vast/immense/flood/deluge, and the phonetic indicator shows how to pronounce it (gung -> hung).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character#Phono-semantic_compounds

I think the case for the Hung character to be an evolution of the Han character is highly unlikely.

1) The Han peoples lost their empire when the Song dynasty fell to the Yuan (Mongols).
2) Han rule returned when the Ming dynasty was formed after the Mongols were defeated.
3) In turn the Ming fell to the Qing.

Why only "take the Zhong and Tu out of Han" and create "Hung" during Qing occupation when the land had already been lost by a previous dynasty?

Most importantly, does one really think that the Chinese had no character for vast/immense/flood/deluge prior to this dynasty? The great emperor Yu (大禹) was fighting the flood waters in the 21st century BC!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great

[hskwarrior]

ok thanks for that.

however, I'm not a Han, nor than effin old to know if it is likely or unlikely.

if you do, great.

still, it is what it is.

but you are the only one disputing that.

[CFT]

ok thanks for that.

however, I'm not a Han, nor than effin old to know if it is likely or unlikely.

if you do, great.

still, it is what it is.

but you are the only one disputing that.You seem a bit touchy Frank. The post you quoted from is someone's pet theory unsupported by literature. If internal Hung Mun documents can show that then fine, you would have a case.

I'm not a linguistics or history scholar but I'm pretty certain that the character for "Hung" (flood) is more than 360 years old. I'll get back to you.

[hskwarrior]

How do you know it's their pet theory?

Me touchy, nah, just outspoken.

What is your background (idk it so i ask)? What are your credentials to dispute whether or not that the characters are as the statement said?

I could care less what characters are used, how they got them, or what ever.

What i do care about is this..........the san francisco hung mun ghee kung tong is a product of the green grass monk. This lodge was established in sf in 1849. My gung fu family has been with the green grass monk since 1841 (167 years).

[hskwarrior]

How do you know it's their pet theory?

Me touchy, nah, just outspoken.

What is your background (idk it so i ask)? What are your credentials to dispute whether or not that the characters are as the statement said?

I could care less what characters are used, how they got them, or what ever.

What i do care about is this..........the san francisco hung mun ghee kung tong is a product of the green grass monk. This lodge was established in sf in 1849. My gung fu family has been with the green grass monk since 1841 (167 years).

As well, there are hung mun websites that also claim the same stuff.

So, i'm not up to believing you right off the bat.

[CFT]

You are still very defensive! I'm not in any CLF family so no need to think this is an attack against your Hung Sing group or your local Hung Mun.

My skepticism hinged around the word "evolved". I've been informed that the author of that text is more fluent in Chinese than English, so it seems that one can "explain" the choice of the character "Hung" by the revolutionary societies by the theory put forward by the author. Maybe it is more than theory. If the Hung Mun oral tradition describes this then fine.

The extract you posted just made it seem like the "normal/every day" character for "Hung" (i.e. a change to the language) was derived in response to the Qing occupation of China. But really it is like an organisation choosing their logo or motto.

I'm informed that the character has been around since at least the Shuowen Jiezi which was compiled in 100 AD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuowen_Jiezi

[TenTigers]

I think the case for the Hung character to be an evolution of the Han character is highly unlikely.

1) The Han peoples lost their empire when the Song dynasty fell to the Yuan (Mongols).
2) Han rule returned when the Ming dynasty was formed after the Mongols were defeated.
3) In turn the Ming fell to the Qing.

Why only "take the Zhong and Tu out of Han" and create "Hung" during Qing occupation when the land had already been lost by a previous dynasty?

]

Many Southern Chinese still refer to themselves as Han Yan (Han People) in fact, some still call Manderins,'Chings.'

[hskwarrior]

well thats all find and dandy. However, I could care less how the word "evolved"

There is more out there on the internet that is hung mun related that also say the same thing. one specific one actually shows the section being taken out. if i can find it, maybe you can dispute it with them.

who cares how a word is evolved? It's not up for me to dispute that, i'm not chinese.

[CFT]

well thats all find and dandy. However, I could care less how the word "evolved"

There is more out there on the internet that is hung mun related that also say the same thing. one specific one actually shows the section being taken out. if i can find it, maybe you can dispute it with them.

who cares how a word is evolved? It's not up for me to dispute that, i'm not chinese.I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. The character "Hung" did not come about because the Hung Mun invented it - that is all.

I'm about as interested in Hung Mun and Hung Sing as you are in the evolution of the Chinese language.

Actually I take that back, you are interested if it helps to support your position on the link between HSG and Hung Mun. I'm just saying there is no linguistic importance to Hung Mun choosing that particular character.

[hskwarrior]

OMG,

I really am trying to see where you are coming from, but WHOEVER claimed that "Hung" from the Hung Mun was evolved from the word Han......thats up for THEM to prove. I know i didn't. i just posted it cause i thought it was an interesting concept.

sorry for all the misunderstandings.

[CFT]

Fair enough.

[jdhowland]

Here's a possible connection to Hung tradition: our first Hop Ga set begins with a triple salute (Buddhist palm style) to the left, right and front. Heaven-earth-man? Or it could merely reflect seating galleries in the mogun where it was developed. My teacher is Hung Mun and opening hands are frequently full of symbolic gestures so I tend to think that it's a Hung device.

Our Tibetan White Crane has a couple of sets in which the index finger points to the sky. If this is a Hung signal I'd like to learn more about it.

Good idea for a thread!

jd

[Eddie]

he frank,
in this picture of your Sifu http://supremelodge.zoomshare.com/files/protest5.jpg , I see he has a freemason (well the western freemasons) symbol printed on his shirt. Is this hung moon society related to the freemasons?

PS, I don’t know much about the freemasons, Im just curious.

[hskwarrior]

no problem eddie.

the hung mun ghee kung tong are also known as Chinese Freemasons, and have been using the symbol for centuries.

[hskwarrior]

I like this picture too......here (http://supremelodge.zoomshare.com/files/protest17.jpg)

[Eddie]

so are the chinese freemasons related to the 'western' freemasons?

Guy at work just told me that hu juen tao (sorry my spelling suck .. late night - no sleep), president of china, is also a freemason. he didnt say if he was a chinese freemason or a western FM.

While on the subject ... I've read somewhere before that every single american president so far were all freemasons. How about Oßama?

[hskwarrior]

it's all very likely.

Now, there has been extensive research on whether or not the Chinese Freemasons and the European Freemasons were related. No conclusion till this date, but the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong have fiercely fought for their right to wear the Freemason symbol.

I believe the president of Taiwan is also a freemason since his bloodline is that of Chiang Kai Shek, who was a member of the Hung Mun too.

[hskwarrior]

Chee Kong Tong: Chinese Freemasons

Written By Lai Ying Yu (The Chinese Historical Society of New England) and Reggie Wong (Chee Kong Tong)

Considered to be the oldest Chinese civic organization in the United States, the Chinese Freemasons is a fraternity that dates back to the 1800s during the East-West maritime trade and the construction of the transcontinental railroad.

In 2006, the Boston Lodge of the Chinese Freemasons will be celebrating its 138th anniversary. The Chinese Freemasons, also known as “Hung Mun,” is an international organization that was originally established as an all-male fraternity to promote Chinese values, customs, and the ideals of democracy, in a strong network of brotherhood that has roots dating back to over three hundred years ago in China. After adopting many of the symbols and customs of Western freemasonry used by seafaring traders of Europe and the United States, its members decided to adopt the name, “Chinese Freemasons.”

Known in the political arena as the “Chee Kong Tong,” the Chinese Freemasons is perhaps most renowned for its support of Dr. Sun Yat-Sen, the founding father of the Republic of China, during his campaign to overthrow the Manchu rulers of the Qing Dynasty. The Chinese Freemasons, its large membership, and its nationalistic goals, were well known to those in China. In 1904, Dr. Sun Yat-Sen joined the Chee Kong Tong in Hawaii to build support for the Nationalist party and the coming revolution in 1911. His world travel extended through the entire United States and included Massachusetts. When he arrived in Boston, the Chee Kong Tong hosted his stay and actively supported his campaigning activities.

In addition to its support for the well-being of China, the Chinese Freemasons actively promotes and participates in the growth of its local communities. Today there are Chinese Freemasons Lodges in major Chinese communities of the United States, Canada, and many other countries. Indeed, many of the Chinese Freemasons members were involved in founding the commercial and family associations of their Chinese communities. In this way, the Boston Lodge has continued to provide a sense of leadership to the Chinatown community via their members and activities. The Chinese Freemasons in Boston, whose membership extends throughout New England, was the firstamong the Chinatown family associations to begin accepting female nominations around the 1950s.

There is also documentation that a “Chee Kong Tong” chapter was incorporated in Portland, Maine, in 1922. Also, the Boston Lodge is believed to have been the first Chinese organization in Boston to purchase its own real property, 6 Tyler Street, in 1909, and it still maintains its headquarters there. With a membership of around six hundred, the Boston Chinese Freemasons is also among the nation’s first Chinese Freemasons to sponsor a youth group – Hung Ching, whose activities involve promoting Chinese culture and organizing youth sports activities and tournaments. The Chinese Freemasons also directly supports sports involvement by annually co-sponsoring international volleyball and basketball tournaments. Several years ago, the Chinese Freemasons took the lead role in fundraising for the earthquake disaster in Taiwan, and most recently, has helped organize a benefit for the Tsunami Relief Fund.

***This article was originally published in the Fall 2005 Newsletter of the Chinese Historical Society of New England***

[hskwarrior]

http://www.ntdtv.com/xtr/b5/2008/03/04/a73434.html

[hskwarrior]

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fv.youku.com%2fv_show%2fid_co00X MjEwMjQyNDg%3d.html

[hskwarrior]

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fwatch%3fv%3dD oeD2cOBFZ8%26feature%3drelated

[David Jamieson]

so are the chinese freemasons related to the 'western' freemasons?

Guy at work just told me that hu juen tao (sorry my spelling suck .. late night - no sleep), president of china, is also a freemason. he didnt say if he was a chinese freemason or a western FM.

While on the subject ... I've read somewhere before that every single american president so far were all freemasons. How about Oßama?


Not every president has been a freemason. But more than a few.
The freemasons have been around in various orders and rites all over the world for as long as history.

they run the world don't you know? :p

seriously.