2nd Edition: Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung [Archive]

sihing

11-05-2008, 12:36 PM

Hi All,

Just Announcing here that David Peterson's 2nd Edition of his great book "Look Beyond the Pointing Finger: The Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung" will be available soon.
"Now presented in an Expanded 2nd Edition, containing even more information and profusely illustrated with photographs exclusive to the author, ‘Look Beyond the Pointing Finger: the Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung’ is a book from which martial artists of any system, especially devotees of Wing Chun, will gain both inspiration and a greater insight into the development of their own Personal Protection skills.

Expanded 2nd Edition has 218 pages !"

Available thru Cranes Production, please follow this link for ordering information, http://cranesproduction.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=49&zenid=d3458fd95af083ff9984e54a002c1166.

For Canadian orders please contact me personally.

James

Ernie

11-05-2008, 01:02 PM

hey you beat me to it lol
been hearing good things mine should be here soon ,,,;)

sihing

11-05-2008, 01:34 PM

hey you beat me to it lol
been hearing good things mine should be here soon ,,,;)

Thought I would get it out there Bro...Christmas is coming up, the book would be a nice treat for any Martial Artist to appreciate:)

I've heard good things as well, will be picking mine up soon too. I'll definetly post a review.

JR

bennyvt

11-06-2008, 03:43 AM

cool my first one got wrecked in a flood. Do you know if he is doing a deal with the videos. As i have been waiting to get them as david said the book would be out soon. Hopefully i can get david to sign this one too. The first one was great and im sure this one will be better

Chuan fa

11-06-2008, 10:18 PM

Cool. Thanks for the heads up James. Where can we get it? Its already sold out at CranesProductions.

Ernie

11-07-2008, 07:44 AM

Just got this

-----------------

Dear Friends of the MCMAC,

I am pleased to be able to let you know that the long-awaited Second Edition of my book, 'Look Beyond the Pointing Finger: the Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung' is now about to be published. More than twice the length of the original 2001 edition, it contains much more material about the WSL Method, whilst still retaining the original core section of my late Sifu's wisdom. It is totally up-to-date, incorporating photos from all the recent trips overseas this year, so many of you, both long-time and more recent members of our extended Family will find your images within the pages. The latest word is that we can expect to be able to get holdof copies in December, hopefully just in time for the Xmas stockings :)

sihing

11-07-2008, 09:03 AM

Cool. Thanks for the heads up James. Where can we get it? Its already sold out at CranesProductions.

Hey Chuna Fa,

As far as I know, the 2nd edition won't be available from Cranes Production until late December. Did you contact them directly? If so let me know and I can chat with them too. I would assume that if the demand is high they will print more copies:)

James

Matrix

11-08-2008, 06:27 PM

As far as I know, the 2nd edition won't be available from Cranes Production until late December.
Hey James,
Let me know when you get some in. I'll probably be looking for at least one copy.

Bill

sihing

11-09-2008, 09:49 PM

Hey James,
Let me know when you get some in. I'll probably be looking for at least one copy.

Bill

Will do Bill:) I should be putting an order in soon.

James

LSWCTN1

11-21-2008, 04:02 AM

Is there anywhere in the UK selling this?

£40+ for a book is fairly steep (including shipping from Crane Productions) but if there is nowhere on this side of the pond then it looks like I'm forking out £40+!

thanks in advance

David

CFT

11-21-2008, 05:53 AM

I don't think it is £40+. More like £36+ unless the exchange rate nosedives. The book price is reasonable but the international shipping charge really stings (~£12) - it is over one third of the total cost.

LSWCTN1

11-21-2008, 04:45 PM

i'm sure its worth every penny - well i hope it is because i have just paid full price for it!

£42.31 to be exact (including priority shipping)

off to bed now!:)

David

David Peterson

11-23-2008, 12:08 AM

The mathematics doesn't add up, Gents - on the current exchange rate, US$34.95 (the cost of the book) is equal to 23pounds.50p....
DMP

LSWCTN1

11-23-2008, 03:26 AM

i think we was factoring in the priority shipping for another $34

however it seems to have changed literally overnight to only $26.80 for First Class International Package from around $31:eek: - never mind!

i should imagine that once i get it, i think its worth every penny

all the best

David

LSWCTN1

12-24-2008, 03:57 AM

Absolutely fantastic!

Crane Productions service was second to non - i received almost $15 back because shipping wasnt as much as expected, it was due to be sent today but it actually got sent on 19th from USA and i got it today (24th) in the UK - 3 working days later. with Christmas post!

havent even opened it yet - im still working:eek:

thanks guys!

PS: Merry Christmas, and a happy new year to one and all!

sanjuro_ronin

02-09-2009, 07:03 AM

Finally read the Book.
Thanks for getting it out to me James.

AN excellent book not only about WC but about MA in general, since almost everything in it is pertienent to any MA and to anyone that wants to use their MA for its intended purpose, fighting.

WSL is someone that I never really read up on, I don't really care that much about what others have done in the past, especially now since the climate of fighting is so different, But I am very glad I did since we share so many of the same views about fighting and no-nonsense, practical, NO-BS martial arts.

I highly recommend this book for anyone, but in particular to those WC people that may not be sure of WHY they do WC or why their WC MAY feel like something is "missing".

This book has so many excellent parts, its hard to put down just a few.

Too bad WSL passed away so soon, I would have loved to have heard his view on Vale Tudo as it was and MMA as it is now.

sihing

02-09-2009, 02:29 PM

Your welcome Paul:)

Yeah, I agree it is a great book for all Martial Artists. Concepts are universal, and anyone from any system can learn something and adapt it to their way of doing things, almost immediately.

For me, the greatest thing Wong Shun Leung taught was to not be a slave to the system, rather than any technique/structure or drill. It was a huge paradigm shift for me, since my thinking before was that I had to stay within the style to be able to use it, limited by a confined set of movements and rules. To me now, this type of application only suppresses your effectiveness as now you are "trying" to make it come out, instead of letting whatever needs to come out at the right time. One way is natural (with training behind you), the other way unnatural, as you are forcing something to come out. As Bruce said, the ultimate is to be naturally unnatural, or unnaturally natural.

James

sanjuro_ronin

02-09-2009, 02:38 PM

Yeah, I agree it is a great book for all Martial Artists. Concepts are universal, and anyone from any system can learn something and adapt it to their way of doing things, almost immediately.

Dead on, no pun intended.

For me, the greatest thing Wong Shun Leung taught was to not be a slave to the system, rather than any technique/structure or drill.

He, or should I say, I, echo HIS view, over and over.

It was a huge paradigm shift for me, since my thinking before was that I had to stay within the style to be able to use it, limited by a confined set of movements and rules.

I never had that issue because I travelled so much that it was lamost impossible to stick with one system for very long, and all the pros and cons that go with that.

To me now, this type of application only suppresses your effectiveness as now you are "trying" to make it come out, instead of letting whatever needs to come out at the right time. One way is natural (with training behind you), the other way unnatural, as you are forcing something to come out. As Bruce said, the ultimate is to be naturally unnatural, or unnaturally natural.

You have pak sao the correct and finished it with a chain punching flurry to the prostate !

mjw

02-27-2009, 02:00 PM

Looks like a good book

sanjuro_ronin

02-27-2009, 02:01 PM

Looks like a good book

Get it if you can, it's excellent.

Ultimatewingchun

02-27-2009, 03:39 PM

"For me, the greatest thing Wong Shun Leung taught was to not be a slave to the system, rather than any technique/structure or drill. It was a huge paradigm shift for me, since my thinking before was that I had to stay within the style to be able to use it, limited by a confined set of movements and rules. To me now, this type of application only suppresses your effectiveness as now you are 'trying' to make it come out, instead of letting whatever needs to come out at the right time." (James/sihing)

***EXCELLENT analysis, James.

mjw

03-05-2009, 08:48 PM

I just ordered it today :D

sanjuro_ronin

02-22-2010, 01:18 PM

goju

02-22-2010, 01:52 PM

sanjuro_ronin

02-22-2010, 01:58 PM

ive noticed all the wc guys under his lineage seem to be really skilled as well:D

Probably because they followed his teachings of "its what YOU Can do that counts, not someone else".
:p

Ernie

02-22-2010, 03:08 PM

**** you guys brought me out of the wood work on this one lol
I'm in no way shape or form into any hero or linage worship ..
but that logic in WSL's teachings and the consistent skill level i have encountered first hand around the world ,,has be the only thing that has kept me in the VT game .
no supermen just regular dudes that developed some good solid game with a simple goal in mind ,, a fight is about surviving not about winning ,,do what ever it takes

hope you all have been training hard and having fun ,,back to the shadows for me :cool:

sihing

02-22-2010, 03:29 PM

Ok, so I re-read this book and finished it over the weekend.
I have to re-iterate how much I loved this book and what a great job it does on expressing the views of WSL.
I have to be truthful, I don't know where WC took a wrong turn but why are there not more people like WSL???

I have that book by the john, been reading it lately, lol....

Yup, it's a great book to keep one on track, mentally and if you are training/teaching in the lineage it helps you stay on key with what we are trying to do with the system.

Like my bro Ernie said, it's all about average guys being able to survive on the street, not about becoming a super human fighting machine, which quite frankly seems to be the trend nowadays, or at least that is what people are trying to portray of themeselves and their goals. For me as well, it is a super fun system to train in, and with people like Ernie, a guy who is constantly NOT resting on his laurels and continually investigating and refining things, it's a great breath of fresh air. Him and his crew are some of the only guys that I have seen in WC that can actually use it functionally, I've felt this personally, which is why I continue to train with him and his crew. A great bunch of guys, as is the whole WSL family generally. I dont see this type of mentality and attitude in most WC lineages and I've been around, rather what I see is the follow the instructor/master/grandmaster to the tee type of attitude, or a total departure from the system. With a research & development attitude in mind, one can find many things that are no so obvious within the system, that is why personal one on one communication is the only way to really know what is what.

James

sihing

02-22-2010, 03:37 PM

SAAMAG

02-22-2010, 05:49 PM

Thanks for bringing this thread back James and Paul. I've been out of the loop for a while and so I just ordered my copy.

I've always thought of the WSL lineage as a guiding light in the world of wing chun and in some ways martial arts.

Ernie

02-22-2010, 07:46 PM

Okay, so now my next goal is to get you to write your own book expressing your own views on things VT related, now that would be something to talk about:)

James

With my sarcastic a$$ lol ,,, it would be called this is why you suck ! even your momma don't love U :cool:

Matrix

02-22-2010, 09:31 PM

With my sarcastic a$$ lol ,,, it would be called this is why you suck ! even your momma don't love U :cool:OK. Now that you have a title, get working on the rest of the book. I'll pay for a copy in Cuban cigars. ;)

Ernie

02-22-2010, 09:46 PM

OK. Now that you have a title, get working on the rest of the book. I'll pay for a copy in Cuban cigars. ;)

Hey I never got my cigar lol ....

sihing

02-22-2010, 10:58 PM

OK. Now that you have a title, get working on the rest of the book. I'll pay for a copy in Cuban cigars. ;)

Bill,

If you add in a 20+yr old bottle of bourbon or scotch with those Cubans, we may be able to convince him:)

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 07:04 AM

OK. Now that you have a title, get working on the rest of the book. I'll pay for a copy in Cuban cigars. ;)

I have a nice 10 pack of Monte Cristos I just brought back from Cuba.
:D

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 07:06 AM

Frost

02-23-2010, 07:19 AM

t_niehoff

02-23-2010, 08:04 AM

Actually i would argue the opposite, that MMA is more suited to the average joe looking for self defence who can only train twice a week than the traditional arts are: there are no sets/ no forms, no esoteric breathing methods to learn, you learn high percentage moves that work in stand up, clinch and ground. I have seen uncoordinated people that have been laughed out of traditional schools learn MMA quite well, the hands on nature or the art means they receive feedback instantly and can make adjustments accordingly

Does that mean these people will become BJJ blackbelts, pro fighters or master the rubber guard?
No but for the average joe looking for some fitness, fun and some practical self defence skills i would say MMA is the way to go

I completely agree.

One of the myths among TMA people is that MMA is only for elite athletes. Good MMA gyms have classes that are level appropriate, often have women's and kid's classes, and cater to all kinds of people.

goju

02-23-2010, 08:12 AM

Actually i would argue the opposite, that MMA is more suited to the average joe looking for self defence who can only train twice a week than the traditional arts are: there are no sets/ no forms, no esoteric breathing methods to learn, you learn high percentage moves that work in stand up, clinch and ground. I have seen uncoordinated people that have been laughed out of traditional schools learn MMA quite well, the hands on nature or the art means they receive feedback instantly and can make adjustments accordingly

Does that mean these people will become BJJ blackbelts, pro fighters or master the rubber guard?
No but for the average joe looking for some fitness, fun and some practical self defence skills i would say MMA is the way to go

i wouldnt from what ive seen the average joe training at mma gyms wouldnt have a very good chance of defending himself either

Frost

02-23-2010, 08:19 AM

i wouldnt from what ive seen the average joe training at mma gyms wouldnt have a very good chance of defending himself either

i would argue out of the two, training somewhere where nearly all your time is with a resisting opponent and you are getting hit at varying intensities of contact, and where you learn to live with an opponent standing and on the ground is a better place to train than somewhere where you have to learn forms, dummy training, ancient weapons etc

does that mean you will be able to defend yourself? Maybe not self defence is a tricky thing but you will be fitter and more used to contact than you would if you trained elsewhere

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 08:34 AM

Frost

02-23-2010, 08:44 AM

Let's keep it on track guys.

In WSL book he mentions that MA should be Direct, simple and effective.
In his matches, it is reported, that WSL typically won within the first few hits.

Now, in sport systems, people are trained to finish a fight as soon as possible too, of course, BUT the reality isn't the same as, when competing, we are taught to "feel out the opponent", to "not rush it", "take our time", even use the first round as a felling round.
Sure if the chance to win is there we take it, but I am talking about strategy, not opportunity.

how can a system that teaches 3 empty handed forms, 2 weapons, a wooden dummy form etc, be more simple and direct than a system that has you sparring pretty much from day 1?

Its easy to win in the first few hits if you are fighting unconditioned fighters.

You talked about competing, thats not what the average Joe wants or does very often, if you take MMA classes and do not compete and want simple direct etc you learn a few punches, how to knee and elbow in the clinch and how to drop someone on their head, thats it, how much more simple can it be?

When my coach teaches self defence (he is a student of geoff thompson of long standing) its basic and to the point: hitting the head as hard as possible and as quickly as possible with whatever is to hand, weapons, your fist your knee to cause a knockout of you choke him out in a few seconds. Hell take the thai clinch and bang his head against the wall!

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 08:54 AM

When my coach teaches self defence (he is a student of geoff thompson of long standing) its basic and to the point: hitting the head as hard as possible and as quickly as possible with whatever is to hand, weapons, your fist your knee to cause a knockout of you choke him out in a few seconds. Hell take the thai clinch and bang his head against the wall!

Geoff is one cool customer.
You realize that, in your description, you described the WSL method of WC.

SAAMAG

02-23-2010, 08:57 AM

Well in terms of wing chun, its mean to do it in a way that anyone can do it. If you've got a guy who's 5'3" and he's found himself in an altercation with another guy who's 6' and all muscle, the smaller one isn't going to be putting anyone in a plum or manhandle the other guy.

WSL made the system work...that's what everyone should be striving to do in the wing chun community. It's not meant to be a cookie cutter one size fits all system, its meant to be tailored to the individual.

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 09:00 AM

Frost

02-23-2010, 11:22 AM

Geoff is one cool customer.
You realize that, in your description, you described the WSL method of WC.

if thats true cool have have not studied his method, however i would still argue that the average joe only training a few days a week would be better suited to learning this way, without the forms etc

Do you think the forms, weapons etc are necessary for this kind of training, do you think WSL could have got to where he did get without wing chun, seeing as very few from the yip man school reached his level of fighting, do you think it was the man as much (if not more so) than the style?

goju

02-23-2010, 11:29 AM

[QUOTE=Frost;993901do you think it was the man as much (if not more so) than the style?[/QUOTE]

probably a bit of both:D

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 11:55 AM

Do you think the forms, weapons etc are necessary for this kind of training, do you think WSL could have got to where he did get without wing chun, seeing as very few from the yip man school reached his level of fighting, do you think it was the man as much (if not more so) than the style?

Forms are not needed to learn/train fighting, there is ample proof of that, just as there is proof that forms were later addittion to MA training from the very beginning.
That said, forms can serve a purpose in MA training and I don't know if WSL would have gotten where he got without them, or inspite of them.
I don't know.
And yes, it always has more to do with the man then the system:
Man>Training>Style

Frost

02-23-2010, 12:03 PM

Forms are not needed to learn/train fighting, there is ample proof of that, just as there is proof that forms were later addittion to MA training from the very beginning.
That said, forms can serve a purpose in MA training and I don't know if WSL would have gotten where he got without them, or inspite of them.
I don't know.
And yes, it always has more to do with the man then the system:
Man>Training>Style

all that said (and i agree with you on most of it) if an average joe was only interested in training a few times a week and looking to defend himself if the need arises, what would you have him do?

train in the traditional way (few forms, much sparring/conditioning just like the MMA schools of today) or have him do what alot of TCMA schoosl do: forms practise meditation, ancient weapons etc?

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 12:04 PM

Nope,
I would focus on basics, drilling and sparring, at least for the first year or two.

Frost

02-23-2010, 12:12 PM

why then do you think so many TCMA schools do not train this way?

i am sure in the past when these arts were actually used for combat this is exactly how they trained...why did things change?

sanjuro_ronin

02-23-2010, 12:17 PM

why then do you think so many TCMA schools do not train this way?

i am sure in the past when these arts were actually used for combat this is exactly how they trained...why did things change?

A very good question, one that has been debated over and over and over.

goju

02-23-2010, 12:21 PM

why then do you think so many TCMA schools do not train this way?

a. most people dont want to work hard

b.most people dont need to use martial arts in protect themselves like people did a thousand years ago

dman isloved the mystery ima genius!

sihing

02-23-2010, 02:00 PM

Ernie and James made an interesting point.
Regular guys learning how to survive and not looking to be professional fighters.

I wonder and I ask this without intent to cause controversey, but do you feel that MMA is more suited for the dedicated athlete than the average joe?

Yes. I also feel that MMA is more suited to those that are of the fighter mentality. What is fighter mentality? People that like to fight, which is a competition between two people (regardless if its on the street or in the ring) to find out who can beat who in combat. Self protection is different, and like I have said before it's about survival. Survival includes running, using environment weapons (stairs, wall corners, available hand held weapons like beer bottles, etc...), and of course your wits to get out of it without even the need for physical violence. With SP you have no choice but to be in the situation you are in, with fighting you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiaOiYK8JVE, here's a vid my bro Ernie put up on his site, its part of a 4 part interview he did awhile back while he was in Argentina for a seminar. I never thought of it like this before but he is correct in putting someone's inclined nature into the mix. In the first part of the vid (watch the other 3 parts as well, some good stuff there..) he talks about how the aggressive nature of someone or the natural aggressiveness of youth might make Wing Chun a bad choice, as they will just not stick around long enough or have enough patiences to learn the art. But for guys that have been thru that stage already, and are looking to continue their training in the Martial Arts without having to get the sh!t kicked out of them every class, Wing Chun might be for them. I look at it like it would be a time in your MA life that you want to work on skills and refinement rather than pure athletism and conditioning. To me most of the MMA fighters rely on their conditioning to win fights (generalizing here, I see the high skills in guys like Anderson Silva, GSP and BJ Penn). They toughen themselves up, and make themselves into fighting machines, combined with huge heart and will to win, this is what makes them what they are. Not everyone is looking for that, not everyone is willing to or is able to participate in that type of training atmosphere. Even in my own small club, I got guys with previous injuries, bad shoulders, limited physical capabilities that can't participate in continous sparring type of training and grappling, it would ruin their bodies.

For me WC is my choosen MA of practice, mostly because I enjoy it. For anyone to say that they are training in a particular Martial Art strictly because it offers them the most effective method of combat or self protection is lying to themselves and everyone. We do the things we do because we enjoy the process, when that enjoyment stops we stop training in it, plain and simple. The problem begins when people start to identify with what they are doing and feel the need to defend it and promote it as the be all end all (opps guilty as charged:eek:). Their individual opinions and experience becomes them, so therefore they need to defend it at all costs. WC is not the be all end all, its a Martial Art with some very good methods of training someone to defend themselves, like a whole bunch of other MA, we have just choosen this one as our delivery system.

James

SAAMAG

02-23-2010, 02:09 PM

Yes. I also feel that MMA is more suited to those that are of the fighter mentality. What is fighter mentality? People that like to fight, which is a competition between two people (regardless if its on the street or in the ring) to find out who can beat who in combat. Self protection is different, and like I have said before it's about survival. Survival includes running, using environment weapons (stairs, wall corners, available hand held weapons like beer bottles, etc...), and of course your wits to get out of it without even the need for physical violence. With SP you have no choice but to be in the situation you are in, with fighting you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiaOiYK8JVE, here's a vid my bro Ernie put up on his site, its part of a 4 part interview he did awhile back while he was in Argentina for a seminar. I never thought of it like this before but he is correct in putting someone's inclined nature into the mix. In the first part of the vid (watch the other 3 parts as well, some good stuff there..) he talks about how the aggressive nature of someone or the natural aggressiveness of youth might make Wing Chun a bad choice, as they will just not stick around long enough or have enough patiences to learn the art. But for guys that have been thru that stage already, and are looking to continue their training in the Martial Arts without having to get the sh!t kicked out of them every class, Wing Chun might be for them. I look at it like it would be a time in your MA life that you want to work on skills and refinement rather than pure athletism and conditioning. To me most of the MMA fighters rely on their conditioning to win fights (generalizing here, I see the high skills in guys like Anderson Silva, GSP and BJ Penn). They toughen themselves up, and make themselves into fighting machines, combined with huge heart and will to win, this is what makes them what they are. Not everyone is looking for that, not everyone is willing to or is able to participate in that type of training atmosphere. Even in my own small club, I got guys with previous injuries, bad shoulders, limited physical capabilities that can participate in continous sparring type of training and grappling, it would ruin their bodies.

For me WC is my choosen MA of practice, mostly because I enjoy it. For anyone to say that they are training in a particular Martial Art strictly because it offers them the most effective method of combat or self protection is lying to themselves and everyone. We do the things we do because we enjoy the process, when that enjoyment stops we stop training in it, plain and simple. The problem begins when people start to identify with what they are doing and feel the need to defend it and promote it as the be all end all (opps guilty as charged:eek:). Their individual opinions and experience becomes them, so therefore they need to defend it at all costs. WC is not the be all end all, its a Martial Art with some very good methods of training someone to defend themselves, like a whole bunch of other MA, we have just choosen this one as our delivery system.

James

VERY VERY true. Excellent thoughts.

sihing

02-23-2010, 02:16 PM

i would argue out of the two, training somewhere where nearly all your time is with a resisting opponent and you are getting hit at varying intensities of contact, and where you learn to live with an opponent standing and on the ground is a better place to train than somewhere where you have to learn forms, dummy training, ancient weapons etc

does that mean you will be able to defend yourself? Maybe not self defence is a tricky thing but you will be fitter and more used to contact than you would if you trained elsewhere

I agree that when you are in an environment that puts you under pressure on a more consistent basis that you will react better when it is under real conditions. By reacting better, I mean that you won't stress out as much mentally or physically because you are used to that type of intensity, not necessarily that your body mechanics and actual responses will be better. But is it reasonable to believe that ALL people will be able to deal with this type of training atmosphere on a consistent basis? Some will and some won't, so what do you do with the people that can't deal with this training environment? Like the marines you have to adapt.

WC is all about yourself. When you are too concerned with trying to attack the other guy or defend, he is in control. The only thing you can control is yourself, and that is what WC is about. Our own structure, our own mechanics and timing/positioning. Its development training, application is when you take the developed tools and apply them in sparring against whom ever you choose up to whatever intensity level you desire. For me WC is the training part, the development of the frame and body, application is seperate. That's why I don't like the term "WC man", since WC doesn't do the application, individuals do. If you and I spar or fight, and I lose, that is a reflection on me, not the art, as how do you quantify what exactly lost the fight for me?

Regarding forms, in my club we train 3x week, 2hrs each time. We do forms work in the beginning for about 5 mintues, this is so I can see if they are doing it correct, so when they are at home alone training, they are not developing bad habits when it comes to personal structure and mechanics, the rest of the class is spent going thru various drills and isolated sparring drills. Forms are mostly just there for acute and personal refinement. There's alot of debate as to the validity of forms, well for me they work, this is my personal experience so I stay with it. One doesn't necessarily need them but I have found value in them so I continue to use forms as a training aid. Having said that, you can't learn what WC is trying to teach you without a partner, so forms do not teach you the actual skills of the art. It is like a sharpening tool for your axe or knives, the tool doesn't do the cutting for you, but makes the axe or knife work better.

James

Frost

02-23-2010, 04:14 PM

I agree that when you are in an environment that puts you under pressure on a more consistent basis that you will react better when it is under real conditions. By reacting better, I mean that you won't stress out as much mentally or physically because you are used to that type of intensity, not necessarily that your body mechanics and actual responses will be better. But is it reasonable to believe that ALL people will be able to deal with this type of training atmosphere on a consistent basis? Some will and some won't, so what do you do with the people that can't deal with this training environment? Like the marines you have to adapt.

WC is all about yourself. When you are too concerned with trying to attack the other guy or defend, he is in control. The only thing you can control is yourself, and that is what WC is about. Our own structure, our own mechanics and timing/positioning. Its development training, application is when you take the developed tools and apply them in sparring against whom ever you choose up to whatever intensity level you desire. For me WC is the training part, the development of the frame and body, application is seperate. That's why I don't like the term "WC man", since WC doesn't do the application, individuals do. If you and I spar or fight, and I lose, that is a reflection on me, not the art, as how do you quantify what exactly lost the fight for me?

Regarding forms, in my club we train 3x week, 2hrs each time. We do forms work in the beginning for about 5 mintues, this is so I can see if they are doing it correct, so when they are at home alone training, they are not developing bad habits when it comes to personal structure and mechanics, the rest of the class is spent going thru various drills and isolated sparring drills. Forms are mostly just there for acute and personal refinement. There's alot of debate as to the validity of forms, well for me they work, this is my personal experience so I stay with it. One doesn't necessarily need them but I have found value in them so I continue to use forms as a training aid. Having said that, you can't learn what WC is trying to teach you without a partner, so forms do not teach you the actual skills of the art. It is like a sharpening tool for your axe or knives, the tool doesn't do the cutting for you, but makes the axe or knife work better.

James

No its not reasonable to assume all will want a high level of contact, but it is reasonable to assume that all people can train in an MMA venue. what you do with those that can't handle the pressure is you train them accordingly, most clubs have classes for those not wanting to compete where you can drill, isolate spar get fit and have fun, but you know the techniques you are learning work because they are the same as those the fighters use, but since the intensity is low you also understand that from a self defence point of view you probably won't be able to defend yourself like those doing harder contact can.

I would argue that if anyone is in the arts for self defence and they are not regularly sparring at a high intensity they are fooling themselves

Frost

02-23-2010, 04:29 PM

Yes. I also feel that MMA is more suited to those that are of the fighter mentality. What is fighter mentality? People that like to fight, which is a competition between two people (regardless if its on the street or in the ring) to find out who can beat who in combat. Self protection is different, and like I have said before it's about survival. Survival includes running, using environment weapons (stairs, wall corners, available hand held weapons like beer bottles, etc...), and of course your wits to get out of it without even the need for physical violence. With SP you have no choice but to be in the situation you are in, with fighting you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiaOiYK8JVE, here's a vid my bro Ernie put up on his site, its part of a 4 part interview he did awhile back while he was in Argentina for a seminar. I never thought of it like this before but he is correct in putting someone's inclined nature into the mix. In the first part of the vid (watch the other 3 parts as well, some good stuff there..) he talks about how the aggressive nature of someone or the natural aggressiveness of youth might make Wing Chun a bad choice, as they will just not stick around long enough or have enough patiences to learn the art. But for guys that have been thru that stage already, and are looking to continue their training in the Martial Arts without having to get the sh!t kicked out of them every class, Wing Chun might be for them. I look at it like it would be a time in your MA life that you want to work on skills and refinement rather than pure athletism and conditioning. To me most of the MMA fighters rely on their conditioning to win fights (generalizing here, I see the high skills in guys like Anderson Silva, GSP and BJ Penn). They toughen themselves up, and make themselves into fighting machines, combined with huge heart and will to win, this is what makes them what they are. Not everyone is looking for that, not everyone is willing to or is able to participate in that type of training atmosphere. Even in my own small club, I got guys with previous injuries, bad shoulders, limited physical capabilities that can't participate in continous sparring type of training and grappling, it would ruin their bodies.

For me WC is my choosen MA of practice, mostly because I enjoy it. For anyone to say that they are training in a particular Martial Art strictly because it offers them the most effective method of combat or self protection is lying to themselves and everyone. We do the things we do because we enjoy the process, when that enjoyment stops we stop training in it, plain and simple. The problem begins when people start to identify with what they are doing and feel the need to defend it and promote it as the be all end all (opps guilty as charged:eek:). Their individual opinions and experience becomes them, so therefore they need to defend it at all costs. WC is not the be all end all, its a Martial Art with some very good methods of training someone to defend themselves, like a whole bunch of other MA, we have just choosen this one as our delivery system.

James

sorry but this is the usual bull people write about MMA when they have never actually done it, if you want to fight in any venue, MMA boxing etc you have to be fit and conditioned, but to say that people in MMA aren't skilled or don't have refined technique is silly, i have seen pro fighters take pe?ople apart in clubs moving so slowly and effortlessly it looks like its a fix why because their technique is flawless, there timing superb and their skills very refined.

And to say people in MMA classes are just there to become fighting machines is again silly, lots are ther to have fun and get fit, and they are taught at the contact level they want to train at.

People go into MMA for the same reason they go into all martial arts, for fitness, for fun and yes to learn how to fight, is MMA self defence? no and noone i know claims it is, what it does give you though is skills in stand up and ground fighting should you need them.

it will also get you fit and give you some confidence, but it will also let you know exactly how much you can take in a fighting enviroment and how much is too much for you, it will not give you false confidence

sihing

02-23-2010, 05:00 PM

sorry but this is the usual bull people write about MMA when they have never actually done it, if you want to fight in any venue, MMA boxing etc you have to be fit and conditioned, but to say that people in MMA aren't skilled or don't have refined technique is silly, i have seen pro fighters take pe?ople apart in clubs moving so slowly and effortlessly it looks like its a fix why because their technique is flawless, there timing superb and their skills very refined.

And to say people in MMA classes are just there to become fighting machines is again silly, lots are ther to have fun and get fit, and they are taught at the contact level they want to train at.

People go into MMA for the same reason they go into all martial arts, for fitness, for fun and yes to learn how to fight, is MMA self defence? no and noone i know claims it is, what it does give you though is skills in stand up and ground fighting should you need them.

it will also get you fit and give you some confidence, but it will also let you know exactly how much you can take in a fighting enviroment and how much is too much for you, it will not give you false confidence

I never said the MMA guys were not skilled. Anyone competiting on the level of amateur or pro is skilled, way more so than someone in a bar that wants to pick a fight with them. What I said was that they do not rely on that skill as much as the conditioning and will to win that they have. In the end, it the will and heart of the person fighting that makes the biggest difference, but these are entangible things to talk about. Look at Griffin and Silva, Silva being considered the best of the best, especially in the striking game. He totally outclassed Griffin, even to the point of having his hands down and giving him free target. Now I have my own personal suspicions about that fight, the punch that KO'd Griffin didn't look that powerful, but Silva's ability to evade his attack and attack him back at will, that was early Ali like. But guess what, Griffin could kick my a$$ and everyone else's a$$ here, because he's a PRO, we aren't. He's got dedicated trainers, nutritionist and handlers, we don't, plus he loves what he is doing so that is a huge factor to his success. I personally wouldn't love being a MMA fighter.

No concerning everything else you wrote, the guys in my class do bag work, pad work, specified conditioning drills as well, just not to the point of a high intensity level, as that is something if they want to pursue they can on their own, like I have at certain times in my life. To me you are saying the techniques in a MMA class, what they are teaching them to do mechanically and structurally is better than WC, well that may be true or not I'm not priviledged to know what every MMA school teaches. There's all kinds of ways to strike, to kick and fight, I prefer the WC method of learning, that's it. Whether or not it is better or worse, that is not proveable in a real sense, since I would the one using it and not it using me. If one of my students wanted to compete I would send him to the local MMA gym, no problem there, as I wouldn't be able to help them, but if they want to learn a MA that is effective and useable for the average person then they are in the right place, as this is what WC has to offer them. I will say, I teach the art in a strict form, meaning I am teaching and bringing them thru the curriculum, which is predetermined. If they only wanted to learn Self Protection, I could do that for them rather quickly, and it would be a different process. More of a defend, hit and get out type of attitude against whatever attacks are coming their way. No guarantee's, as no MA can do that for you.

James

Phil Redmond

02-23-2010, 05:57 PM

Forms are not needed to learn/train fighting, there is ample proof of that, . . . .
Good point. Forms aren't even needed to learn WC. Leung Jan's Gu Lo didn't have SLT, CJ, BJ.

Frost

02-24-2010, 04:32 AM

I never said the MMA guys were not skilled. Anyone competiting on the level of amateur or pro is skilled, way more so than someone in a bar that wants to pick a fight with them. What I said was that they do not rely on that skill as much as the conditioning and will to win that they have. In the end, it the will and heart of the person fighting that makes the biggest difference, but these are entangible things to talk about. Look at Griffin and Silva, Silva being considered the best of the best, especially in the striking game. He totally outclassed Griffin, even to the point of having his hands down and giving him free target. Now I have my own personal suspicions about that fight, the punch that KO'd Griffin didn't look that powerful, but Silva's ability to evade his attack and attack him back at will, that was early Ali like. But guess what, Griffin could kick my a$$ and everyone else's a$$ here, because he's a PRO, we aren't. He's got dedicated trainers, nutritionist and handlers, we don't, plus he loves what he is doing so that is a huge factor to his success. I personally wouldn't love being a MMA fighter.

No concerning everything else you wrote, the guys in my class do bag work, pad work, specified conditioning drills as well, just not to the point of a high intensity level, as that is something if they want to pursue they can on their own, like I have at certain times in my life. To me you are saying the techniques in a MMA class, what they are teaching them to do mechanically and structurally is better than WC, well that may be true or not I'm not priviledged to know what every MMA school teaches. There's all kinds of ways to strike, to kick and fight, I prefer the WC method of learning, that's it. Whether or not it is better or worse, that is not proveable in a real sense, since I would the one using it and not it using me. If one of my students wanted to compete I would send him to the local MMA gym, no problem there, as I wouldn't be able to help them, but if they want to learn a MA that is effective and useable for the average person then they are in the right place, as this is what WC has to offer them. I will say, I teach the art in a strict form, meaning I am teaching and bringing them thru the curriculum, which is predetermined. If they only wanted to learn Self Protection, I could do that for them rather quickly, and it would be a different process. More of a defend, hit and get out type of attitude against whatever attacks are coming their way. No guarantee's, as no MA can do that for you.

James

No what i am saying is that what is being taught in the class is mechanically and structurally sound and the people can see this as their coaches and class mates regularly use those skills in the ring and cage, if its the same with the wing chun classes (people teaching it have used the skills regularly and so have a fair amount of the class then again thats great)

My main point is that MMA is just a skilful art as any TCMA, and the reason why the top pros are so fit is because when two people of equal skill meet, its normally the fitness and desire to win that carries the winner through. And that not everyone that attends an MMA class wants to be a fighter or wants to do that training, but they will learn something useful and valuable

Now as to ronins original question which is better for the average joe: , what is the average joe looking for?

if its to learn an art form i would say either way works. MMA or wing chun, but if he is looking for self defence then he needs to learn in an environment that is high intensity and where he will more than likely get injured, if he is not prepared for this than the instructor should be honest (be it a wing chun or MMA teacher) and tell him what he is learning might fall apart under stressful conditions

m1k3

02-24-2010, 05:05 AM

To be honest if you get to the point where you are fighting then your self defense has already failed.

As for some of the MMA comments, I am 56 years old and train submission grappling once a week. I train at a level that is comfortable for me and have developed my game around my particular skills. If you can call being old and slow skills. :) I go with the old school Gracie style of fighting, or in my case rolling, not to lose. I play a very defensive game and allow my younger friends the chance to wear themselves our or get frustrated with the slowness of the game and to make a stupid mistake. You would be surprised how often this works.

As someone pointed out WSL's approach was survival also. His approach sounds very much like the H2H I learned in the Marines. Weapons of opportunity were a big part of our training back in the day and still is in the current program. As the put it now, "One Mind Any Weapon".

BTW James, its Marines, with a capital M. :D We jarheads are touchy about stuff like that.