Are there any styles of kung fu that don't use the forearm to hard block?

[Eric Olson]

Same as subject.

[brothernumber9]

Iron Crotch

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

None of the internal styles use it. Instead they use a glancing sort of deflection that cuts, or shears the force on an angle to change its vector and cut the power.

It *Looks* similar, but is totally different because it is not a direct force on force impact, but more of a cutting redirection taking the offending limb along a new line of force.

[sanjuro_ronin]

None of the internal styles use it. Instead they use a glancing sort of deflection that cuts, or shears the force on an angle to change its vector and cut the power.

It *Looks* similar, but is totally different because it is not a direct force on force impact, but more of a cutting redirection taking the offending limb along a new line of force.

Chen Taiji has a "hard" forearm block / strike, its a "dead hand/arm" drop/smash.
I believe Yang has it to, Wu for sure.

[Eric Olson]

None of the internal styles use it. Instead they use a glancing sort of deflection that cuts, or shears the force on an angle to change its vector and cut the power.

It *Looks* similar, but is totally different because it is not a direct force on force impact, but more of a cutting redirection taking the offending limb along a new line of force.

How 'bout any Northern Kung Fu styles? The reason I ask is that after a long hiatus from kung fu I'm looking for a style that is kind of similar in concept to the internal styles but isn't so boring to practice and gives a good cardio workout. Any ideas? What about Baji or Piqua?

Thanks,

EO

[MasterKiller]

How 'bout any Northern Kung Fu styles? The reason I ask is that after a long hiatus from kung fu I'm looking for a style that is kind of similar in concept to the internal styles but isn't so boring to practice and gives a good cardio workout. Any ideas? What about Baji or Piqua?

Thanks,

EO

Northern Shaolin uses forearm blocks, but there are so many different systems that fall under that banner it will vary to what degree they are emphasized.

[SimonM]

Although our system does technically include hard forearm blocks they are generally discouraged in favour of "soft" redirecting techniques and boxing defensive techniques.

[Eric Olson]

Although our system does technically include hard forearm blocks they are generally discouraged in favour of "soft" redirecting techniques and boxing defensive techniques.

Do you practice baji?

EO

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Chen Taiji has a "hard" forearm block / strike, its a "dead hand/arm" drop/smash.
I believe Yang has it to, Wu for sure.

Reply]
I'd have to see it, but what you are describing is pretty contrary to internal usage. I don't believe ANY Taiji system has a hard force on force block like the original description.

My guess is what you have seen is someone who does not understand the difference between force on force, and cutting the power. One is brutal and hard arm banging, the other is soft and moves and differing lines and angles so it is deflecting 10,000 pounds with 4oz.

[Eric Olson]

Reply]
I'd have to see it, but what you are describing is pretty contrary to internal usage. I don't believe ANY Taiji system has a hard force on force block like the original description.

My guess is what you have seen is someone who does not understand the difference between force on force, and cutting the power. One is brutal and hard arm banging, the other is soft and moves and differing lines and angles so it is deflecting 10,000 pounds with 4oz.

I know the move you are talking about, I think it is called gua, which means 'to file.' The force isn't perpendicular to your arm, more like quickly pulling your arm outward and downward.

EO

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That would be totally different than the hard force meets force forearm block he was asking about.

[SimonM]

Do you practice baji?

EO

No... although my sifu is rather ecclectic and I am 95% certain he knows baji... just doesn't really teach it systemically per say.

[AdrianK]

Reply]One is brutal and hard arm banging, the other is soft and moves and differing lines and angles so it is deflecting 10,000 pounds with 4oz.

10,000lb? I very seriously doubt you've ever deflected anything anywhere near that.

[SimonM]

I propose a videotaped test:

RD vs. a truck. ;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

10,000lb? I very seriously doubt you've ever deflected anything anywhere near that.

Reply]
Of course I have!!! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
I'd have to see it, but what you are describing is pretty contrary to internal usage. I don't believe ANY Taiji system has a hard force on force block like the original description.

My guess is what you have seen is someone who does not understand the difference between force on force, and cutting the power. One is brutal and hard arm banging, the other is soft and moves and differing lines and angles so it is deflecting 10,000 pounds with 4oz.

It was part of a cannon fits application done by Chen Xiaowang, also seen it done by Ren GuangYi and by Li Lairen.

[Oso]

is it still a hard block if you are twisting the forearm along it's long axis as you execute the block?

[sanjuro_ronin]

is it still a hard block if you are twisting the forearm along it's long axis as you execute the block?

In theory, any hard block is one that meets force with force so , yes, almost every style has them, so more so than others.
Striking the attacking limb is a "hard block", its just a case of arguing semantics.
Thing is, the majority of what are called hard blocks are just that, "limb destruction techniques".

[Oso]

but only if the motion of the blocking arm stops at contact with their body, right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

but only if the motion of the blocking arm stops at contact with their body, right?

Why would you think that?

[Oso]

because i don't define any movement defending an attack that carrys the motion through the defending point of contact as a hard block.

for instance, in my understanding of the 'inside' and 'outside' 'blocks' in our mantis (and in most everything else i've studied) the forearm is twisting as contact is made and the arm is following through to some other action such as punching or, specifically in mantis, gou or lou (hooking or grasping)

i have always defined a 'block' as something that will generally stop the motion of the attack and the defense, thereby only imparting the advantage of not getting hit by the attack and possibly damaging the attacking body part.

anything thing else would be a 'deflection' or 'parry'

[sanjuro_ronin]

because i don't define any movement defending an attack that carrys the motion through the defending point of contact as a hard block.

for instance, in my understanding of the 'inside' and 'outside' 'blocks' in our mantis (and in most everything else i've studied) the forearm is twisting as contact is made and the arm is following through to some other action such as punching or, specifically in mantis, gou or lou (hooking or grasping)

i have always defined a 'block' as something that will generally stop the motion of the attack and the defense, thereby only imparting the advantage of not getting hit by the attack and possibly damaging the attacking body part.

anything thing else would be a 'deflection' or 'parry'

Interesting view.

[Oso]

ok, how so? and what do you think is incorrect?


PS, leaving office for the day, catch up later

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok, how so? and what do you think is incorrect?


PS, leaving office for the day, catch up later

I don't think that you are incorrect, just interesting view.
If that is your opinion that is fine, nothing right or wrong about it at all.
I don't do "blocks" myself, well, that's not 100% true, I do block strikes to the body with my elbows, but even then I tend to strike with them more than block per say.

Even a shin block to a low kick is not 100% a block, it still are suppose to angle it out to have the attacker leg "redirected" and some of the force disipitated.
Even the hard "shotokan" blocks are angled to do the same thing.

[Oso]

right, hence the point of my first question...or more directly: 'what constitutes a HARD block' and what is a 'block' vs. a 'parry' or 'deflection'?


From Dictionary.com

BLOCK


15. Sports. a hindering of an opponent's actions.


39. Sports. to hinder or bar the actions or movements of (an opposing player), esp. legitimately.


PARRY


1. to ward off (a thrust, stroke, weapon, etc.), as in fencing; avert.


DEFLECT


to bend or turn aside; turn from a true course or straight line; swerve.


so, in general terms 'block' covers all three of the things that I think of as different.


but, i would have actually thought that most martial artists would have thought that 'block' and 'parry/deflect' in much the same manner as i do.



i think most peope, including myself, end up hard blocking because in worst case you have at least put an exendable part of you between the force coming at you and a non expendable part of you.

[SimonM]

Still waiting for video footage of RD deflecting 10000 lbs! ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

right, hence the point of my first question...or more directly: 'what constitutes a HARD block' and what is a 'block' vs. a 'parry' or 'deflection'?


From Dictionary.com

BLOCK






PARRY




DEFLECT




so, in general terms 'block' covers all three of the things that I think of as different.


but, i would have actually thought that most martial artists would have thought that 'block' and 'parry/deflect' in much the same manner as i do.



i think most peope, including myself, end up hard blocking because in worst case you have at least put an exendable part of you between the force coming at you and a non expendable part of you.

To the layman, I think a hard block can best be summed up in the following way:
Punch comes toward face.
Blocking hand comes and slams the attacking arm out of the way in a hard and aggressive manner.
I think when people thing block they think that.
Sure a boxer is blocking when he puts his elbow in the way of a left hook to the body, but people don't think fo that as an example of a hard block.
Hard block = shotokan block.
Of course, even shotokan blocks are "soft" when done right.

[Eric Olson]

This forum is funny. I wonder how many pages are devoted entirely to defining terms?

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

This forum is funny. I wonder how many pages are devoted entirely to defining terms?

EO

BILLIONS AND BILLIONS !!

I mean, after all, people still throw around internal and external, don't they?
LOL !
heck, this thread is about HARD blocks !

[SimonM]

Sure a boxer is blocking when he puts his elbow in the way of a left hook to the body, but people don't think fo that as an example of a hard block.
.

I used to get complaints when I used my elbows to block kicks. :D

[Becca]

I think most styles have a hard form of blocking, and most teachers want you to learn it. But a good teaccher shouldn't "make" you use hard blocks if other types work for you. I know how to hard block, but I flat-out refuse to unless that is spacifically what is being worked on in a session.

I've had many, many bone bruises from hard blocking, and only one injury in years of soft, or deflecion, blocking... and that injury had more to do with me being stupid enough to spar without paying close enough attention to what was going on around me....

[Oso]

To the layman, I think a hard block can best be summed up in the following way:
Punch comes toward face.
Blocking hand comes and slams the attacking arm out of the way in a hard and aggressive manner.
I think when people thing block they think that.
Sure a boxer is blocking when he puts his elbow in the way of a left hook to the body, but people don't think fo that as an example of a hard block.
Hard block = shotokan block.
Of course, even shotokan blocks are "soft" when done right.

right, like I said, most of us end up using harder blocks than we try to train for.
tends to devolve to 'get that shiat outta my face' :D

but the theory of doing the other types of 'blocking' lie in most martial arts i think.


Eric, I don't think setting a standard for terminology is 'funny'. If your word for something is different than my word for something then we don't know what the hell each other is talking about. Humans tend to not use the most correct word for something most of the time, ime.