Shaolin Temple Myths

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Before any of you go any further about the Shaolin Temple, it's 5 ancestors who survived a fire, the styles taught there, etc., etc., I would all suggest that you read this book:

Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals
by Brain Kennedy and Elizabeth Gou

It is a very interesting read, and it chronicles Kung-Fu History from over 2,000 martial arts manuals that were passed down through generations of families -to a private collector in Taiwan.

The two authors, bring to light that the whole story of the Shaolin Temple, the one with the ancestors escaping and all the martial arts taught there, HAD NEVER BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE 1910 (I believe that is the date, or 1912).

Many historians at the time debunked this new story, but for some reason it stuck and got into movies and the rest is history (pun intended)

They site actual Shaolin manuals going back to the 1600 (and more current) that say that the temple only taught staff fighting.

The other side of this is that many rebels fleeing the government sought sanctuary in the temple and BROUGHT their martial arts in - they didn't originate there.

So if this is true, styles like Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, etc, don't really have origins in the Shaolin temple. That is not to say that they weren't refined, collaborated on and practiced there, possibly just that they temple is and was not all that everyone think it was.

An interesting read nonetheless. Sifu Ross recommended it to me several years ago and I've since turned many people on to it. I hope some of you read it.

The reason I'm posting this is because there are so many history arguments on here. Fact is, these manuals, these old family manuals tell a lot more accurate history than some of the current schools, websites and books.

Not looking to ruffle anyone feathers, just sharing some info that I have read.

[Sifu at Large]

I second the above. I bought this one about two months ago, and any self respecting Chinese martial arts practitioner should own and read this book.

[Mano Mano]

I came across some info a while back on the swordforum about how one of the famous generals of the Ming dynasty who fought against the Japanese pirates. When the general went to the temple he found martial arts being taught there however the empty hand martial arts there were the same styles that were being taught outside the temple & the Shaolin staff techniques didn’t impress him, I think he even taught & reintroduced staff fighting to the temple.

[lkfmdc]

This book is ESSENTIAL reading for anyone doing CMA. IT is excellent history and also refutes so much of the crap plaguing the arts

[sanjuro_ronin]

This one and the one " The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar".

[SimonM]

What surprises me is that people still believe histories that center Chinese martial arts at Shaolin.

(I am refering both to "Shaolin is birthplace of MA" and "India / Greece is birthplace of MA, Bodidharma brought MA to China which previously had none")

It's just not good anthropology.

People learned how to punch, kick, wrestle, stab, shoot and throw everywhere long before civilization developed. There is no one birthplace of Martial Arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What surprises me is that people still believe histories that center Chinese martial arts at Shaolin.

(I am refering both to "Shaolin is birthplace of MA" and "India / Greece is birthplace of MA, Bodidharma brought MA to China which previously had none")

It's just not good anthropology.

People learned how to punch, kick, wrestle, stab, shoot and throw everywhere long before civilization developed. There is no one birthplace of Martial Arts.

Correct, certainly one culture or country can pick up a few things from another that may be more "refined" in certain methods, or by seeing stuff on the battlefield, but the chances of a country having ZERO prior MA is almost zero.

[SimonM]

I personally despise the "greece is the origin of all martial arts and they were spread through the Alexandrias in the wake of Alexander the Great" story as being so despicably euro-centric that it sets off my skepticky senses to near fatal levels.

That being said, Greece had some pretty good martial arts. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally despise the "greece is the origin of all martial arts and they were spread through the Alexandrias in the wake of Alexander the Great" story as being so despicably euro-centric that it sets off my skepticky senses to near fatal levels.

That being said, Greece had some pretty good martial arts. ;)

If we wanna be "historically logical", I guess it was either the Egyptians or the Babylonians that started MA.

[hskwarrior]

THE GHEE KUNG TONG WHICH IS THE GREEN GRASS MONK'S TONG IS NOT A MYTH. THE GREEN GRASS MONK'S LODGE IS FOUND IN MALAYSIA, BURMA, CANADA, PHILADELPHIA and SAN FRANCISCO.

I AGREE THAT WITHIN GUNG FU, THINGS DON'T APPEAR TO GOOD. BUT IF YOU LOOKED OUTSIDE OF GUNG FU, SOME OF THE ANSWERS CAN BE FOUND.

The other side of this is that many rebels fleeing the government sought sanctuary in the temple and BROUGHT their martial arts in - they didn't originate there.....I AGREE WITH THAT. THERE WERE STYLES EXISTING BEFORE SHAOLIN, AND SHAOLIN IS NOT THE BIRTHPLACE OF GUNG FU. THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE ALSO ADMITS TO THIS. BUT FOR SOME REASON THEY KEEP CLAIMING GUNG FU STARTED WITH SHAOLIN.

HOWEVER, THE HUNG MUN IS NO MYTH. AND MY SCHOOL STEMS FROM THE HUNG MUN.

[SimonM]

I accept the out of africa hypothesis of the evolution of modern **** sapiens as the most likely one.

I deny the idea that there is a single initiatory point for civilization... though certainly the ones in the near east and south asia are among the oldest there are indications of ancient civilization that may be independent of Babylonian settlement as far west as eastern europe and as far east as the banks of the Yellow River... and that's not even considering the mesoamerican civilizations.

And hskW: why all the caps? Nobody MENTIONED the Green Grass Monk. We just said that we deny the suggestion that Shaolin was the origin point of CMA - not every single style within it!

[hskwarrior]

What does this book say about the 5 ancestors? I'm interested in hearing what they have to say.

Some stuff may be myths, however, since i've been researching the 5 ancestors, there is enough information about these people coming from "non martial arts" pieces of writing.

As someone who likes to research the history of martial arts, i'm interested in seeing what this book has to say....is it still in print?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What does this book say about the 5 ancestors? I'm interested in hearing what they have to say.

Some stuff may be myths, however, since i've been researching the 5 ancestors, there is enough information about these people coming from "non martial arts" pieces of writing.

As someone who likes to research the history of martial arts, i'm interested in seeing what this book has to say....is it still in print?

Its on amazon I think.

[lkfmdc]

Has Frank not been taking his special pills? Did this post have anything to do with the "green grass monk"? Uh, NO :rolleyes:

[PM]

the book is very good, however, the info is not correct. check out the book by Dian Murray, The Origins of the Tiandihui: The Chinese Triads in Legend and History. it contains translation of all the text about so called "Xi Lu legend", mentioning the burning of (Southern) Shaolin temple - warrior monks helping the goverment, treachery, burning of the temple, 5 ancestors of the Triads. the oldest text is from 1811 - 1811, ok? as for the Northern Shaolin Monastery and its connection to martial arts, the sources are much much older.

however, no Jisin sim si, Ng Mui, Fung Doudak, Baak Mei, Miu Hin there. the oldest text mentioning these (and Hung Heigun, Wu Waikin, Fong Saiyuk etc. for example) is Wan Nian Qing, a novel from 1890's.

[hskwarrior]

sorry, mike mentioned the 5 ancestors......so immediately that caught my attention.

and ross, must you ALWAYS come on like a chump? i don't take pills, i shmoke ching cho bruthah! :cool:--~~~~~~

and Ching Cho who IS one of the 5 ancestors, was an abbott at the Shaolin temple. so yeah, i was wondering what that book may have said.

but i trust in my other sources.

[hskwarrior]

PM,

thanks, there are some great books on the hung mun. one of the most detailed but hard to read is from schlegal.

[hskwarrior]

SIMON,

sorry, its faster for me when i use all caps or lower case, or my eyes are going bad......omg where is me specticles?

Sorry, as i said, mike mentioned the 5 ancestors........

[PM]

the book by Gustaaf Schlegel is ihmo kind of outdated. there are much better books today on Hung Mun, like the one i have recomended above, or
The Ritual and Mythology of the Chinese Triads: Creating an Identity

however, what i mean: the connection of Northern/Southern Shaolin Temples to martial arts is confirmed by numerous old sources (reliable or not is other question), but definitely at least 100 years older than 1911. the book by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo is very good, it uncover many myths surrounding TCMA, but it also has a lot of info that is not accurate or true.

[lkfmdc]

Frank, I know that it escapes you how ridiculous you come off, so I'll just forgive your ignorance. But for those who have actual academic training you coming on here and quoting Wu Hsin as historical evidence is pretty darn funny! It's like citing a superman comic for NYC history :rolleyes:

Jean Chesneaux was the first academic examination of secret society history and literature, and while he found plenty of Shaolin references he did not find any that could be dated much before the turn of the century

[lkfmdc]

the connection of Northern/Southern Shaolin Temple FICTION to martial arts is confirmed

fixed that for you. There is no question that most martial arts in China CLAIM some connection to Shaolin, there is little reliable evidence confirming the ties. When China first started looking, they couldn't trace most of the systems back more than a few generations.

[hskwarrior]

ok so what, ross, go suck an egg.

[lkfmdc]

ok so what, ross, go suck an egg.

Spoken truely by someone who is barely literate in their own language :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I'll drop one on the amateur historians now.....

Finding a secret society or brotherhood source that speaks of the temple, of a monk, etc is NOT reliable. You can only confirm that they used that FICTION as far back as that time.

China, being what it was, and what is has gone through in the 20th century (and before) leaves many a land mine for the amateur historian. Short of an actual Bao Jia record, most Chinese historians would say a source is only reliable when it is (1) proven neutral or (2) confirmed by other sources in context or (3) a combination of the two

[SimonM]

Were we just invaded by CLF lineage wars? :D

(I have managed to keep blissfully out of lineage issues for a good long time by just not caring. Sure Wong Fei Hong may have rocked the Hung Gar world way back when but what has he done lately?)

[lkfmdc]

Ever read Esherick's "The Origins of the Boxer Uprising"?

Great book if you want to see the function of martial arts in rebellions and within the conext of traditional Chinese society. Unfortunately, if you aren't a trained historian it can be quite a book to get through.

There is at least one imperial court document which states "the Mei Hua boxing which originated at Shaolin"... wow! Seems like a find doesn't it? Except that the official reporting this is only relaying what HE HEARD THE BOXERS SAYING

A deeper dig into the issue and you find out their teacher wasn't at all related to Shaolin, but his ignorant, poorly educated followers either attached this affiliation or he fed it to them

[SimonM]

You know what really bugs me about Shaolin Temple?

It really was the birthplace of something important. If not for the monks of Shaolin (in a lineage that can be more reliably traced back to Damo - though not entirely ;) ) we wouldn't have Ch'an.

And yet it just gets talked about for kung fu!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know what really bugs me about Shaolin Temple?

It really was the birthplace of something important. If not for the monks of Shaolin (in a lineage that can be more reliably traced back to Damo) we wouldn't have Ch'an.

And yet it just gets talked about for kung fu!

Only on TCMA forums and LARPers forums.

[SimonM]

Enough people swing boffers to have whole forums?

And they talk about Shaolinsi?

[PM]

fixed that for you. There is no question that most martial arts in China CLAIM some connection to Shaolin, there is little reliable evidence confirming the ties. When China first started looking, they couldn't trace most of the systems back more than a few generations.

no need to fix what i wrote :-) i can read and write a bit English, if you do not mind. as seen above, i have questioned the reliability of the written material, especialy as far as Southern Shaolin temple concerns, but as for the Northern Temple, we have much more reliable sources that i would not call fiction at all. please read the book by Meir Shahar recommended above.

i am in no way fan of "all martial arts under heaven come from Shaolin monastery" theory". i just claim (and have posted evidence of my claims) that both temples were connected to martial arts in sources much older than 1911 - ok? the book on Triads by Dian H. Murray has eg. 7 different texts.

[SimonM]

Is there yet any CONCLUSIVE evidence that there WAS a southern Shaolin temple?

[TenTigers]

they found what they believed to be the ruins of the Southern Siu-Lam Temple, but built the new Temple on a different site-better for tourism,parking, accessability, etc. Figures, right? That, and the Ming loyalists hid and trained in many temples. Siu-Lam Ji, Guan Yum Ji, Bak Hok Ji,Ching Wan Ji, etc.

[taai gihk yahn]

TCMA "traditionally" was the purview of soldiers, security guards and brigands; basically the lowest of the lows; not the sort of folks who would be geared towards accurate historical documentation; or literacy for that matter;

what does a "retired" soldier do when he can't get any other work? he teaches MA; who does he teach it too? people who can pay; who can pay and wants to play warrior? literati / inteligensia class; what do they also like to do? write things down "classically"; what do they do when they ask their teacher for info and the teacher tells them some story that doesn't spin well? they embellish; how do you do that? you fabricate legitimacy; one way is to ascribe origins to a "noble" source (a not uncommon practice in many cultures), one that preferably cannot be disproved at least; Shaolin is a good place (or Wu Tang, take your pick); this lends prestige to the style, the teacher, and the student; 3 generations later, you now have a "classical" document that everyone holds as the truth;

this is, of course, a generalization, but it just demonstrates how something can appear legitimate and not be, and that it can be difficult if not impossible to prove it otherwise;

[hskwarrior]

and the best you can do is snide little remarks. what can you expect from a spoiled rich kid.

:D you suck. really bad too.:D

[TenTigers]

they embellish; how do you do that? you fabricate legitimacy; one way is to ascribe origins to a "noble" source (a not uncommon practice in many cultures), one that preferably cannot be disproved at least; this lends prestige to the style, the teacher, and the student; 3 generations later, you now have a "classical" document that everyone holds as the truth;

this is, of course, a generalization, but it just demonstrates how something can appear legitimate and not be, and that it can be difficult if not impossible to prove it otherwise;

yeeaaahh....did I happen to mention that I trained with Bruce Lee? I taught him some Hung-Ga, too. Of course, nobody knows this, because...because..
because I was a secret student. Yeah, that's the ticket. A very secret student. Only he and I knew.
Oh,, and Brandon.

[taai gihk yahn]

yeeaaahh....did I happen to mention that I trained with Bruce Lee? I taught him some Hung-Ga, too. Of course, nobody knows this, because...because..
because I was a secret student. Yeah, that's the ticket. A very secret student. Only he and I knew.
Oh,, and Brandon.

and here I thought that you were Bruce, that you orchestrated the whole "death" thing so that you could drop out of public view and live a life of secret anonymity but then you cam back as "Brandon" to avenge your "father's" reputation, but that meant you were exposed publicly again so you had to fake the whole "accident" bit again, but then Jet Li shows up and does a movie with Jackie Chan, even though Samo's series was canceled because it got too hard to keep writing scripts that consisted of nothing but the other actors feeding him lines where all he had to answer was "yes' or "no" because no one could understand his English and so you had to re-emerge as the Avatar of Vishnu and...

never mind...

[Laukarbo]

I actually stopped looking back further than Wong Fei Hung..
To me its really,really not important if my style comes from shaolin its also not a big secret that hung gar became what it is after the" burning of siulam"..it evolved in southern china and has a connection to ming loyalists.Thats all I need to know.
For my personal research I just look into my si daigungs gung fu life ,Lau Jaam that is...i dont wanna rely on books ,or webpages so i dont care...
better focus on training..:D

[TenTigers]

y'know what['s funny? Every once in awhile, I run into someone who says they know a guy, who studied from a Monk. "And that monk had the brands on his forearms!"
I have yet to see any evidence of that myth either.

[Yum Cha]

To the best of my knowledge, the 5 elders came from the "10,000 Years of Evergreen" popular serial novels popular amongst the Chinese commoners at the time. Not sure when they were written, turn of the century sounds good.

My read of the web resources are hardly conclusive that they "found" the southern shaolin temple. They found some ruins and built a new facility in the vacinity. Of course, dig down 10 metres in just about any populated part of China and you'll find some ruins....

They "found" out they can make a lot of money on kung fu tourism, and the south is closer to HK....

And as Ross noted, the Chinese have never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Much more to the point, ALL DEAD NOW! What are you doing today to make yourself stronger and pass what your master passed on to you to your students. Lineage is all to often an excuse when the hand is weak. Lineage starts with you.

[PM]

article

Meier Shahar, "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" (from JSTOR, .pdf, 1,59 MB)

http://www.lghk.org/web/shahar.zip

[Infrazael]

I think foreigners don't understand how arrogant and xenophobic the Chinese can be. They will lie and deceive, make crap up, just to make themselves look good and save face. You would think the older the are the more "truthful" they may become, this is bullcrap as well.

Everyone loves to play the part of Historian.

Chinese people will tell you anything you wanna hear to make themselves look good.

It's the sad truth but it is the truth.

Too bad not many here realize that.

[uki]

the biggest myth of the shaolin temples is that there are still monks there...

[David Jamieson]

I think foreigners don't understand how arrogant and xenophobic the Chinese can be. They will lie and deceive, make crap up, just to make themselves look good and save face. You would think the older the are the more "truthful" they may become, this is bullcrap as well.

Everyone loves to play the part of Historian.

Chinese people will tell you anything you wanna hear to make themselves look good.

It's the sad truth but it is the truth.

Too bad not many here realize that.


You speak of 1.3 billion people as if they are all one person who is a liar.
What an interesting view. I don't know where to start except to point out that I find that flawed.

Simon, you raise an excellent point. In my experience, very few martial artists practice any form of zen at all. Most that I meet have no idea of what it is, what it is for, why it is, how to do it from seated to moving and so on. it's baffling that it is not inclusive to any tradition that calls itself shaolin or attaches itself to same.

uki - what is a monk?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

You speak of 1.3 billion people as if they are all one person who is a liar.
What an interesting view. I don't know where to start except to point out that I find that flawed.

Simon, you raise an excellent point. In my experience, very few martial artists practice any form of zen at all. Most that I meet have no idea of what it is, what it is for, why it is, how to do it from seated to moving and so on. it's baffling that it is not inclusive to any tradition that calls itself shaolin or attaches itself to same.

uki - what is a monk?

David, I don't disagree with him. What he is saying is that it is well known that the Chinese have changed history to make things more PC. Chinese people, in general, especially the older generations, feel that 'face' is more important than anything else. They have altered written history several times to make things seem better than they were at the time. I have seen it happen personally several times.

And all this talk of finding other proof on other websites doesn't mean anything, other than people have copied and pasted or re-written the same stories.

Case in point: In the 80s and 90s we wrote stuff about the Lama style only to later find out that we made minor errors in our history. More researched proved this. However, so many people copied our articles and mainly David Ross's writings online, that our old research is 'sticking'. People have argued with us about the history, not even knowing that we were the one's who wrote it in the past. They yelled at us and cited articles written by us (they didn't know that part) and swore up and down that it was the truth because 'they read it' somewhere.

I for one, do not believe the 5 ancestors story at all. The fact that there is no written evidence of it prior to 1910 is very compelling. The fact that many chinese historians debunked it back then is even more so.

That being said, Yum Cha's post is most relevant:


Much more to the point, ALL DEAD NOW! What are you doing today to make yourself stronger and pass what your master passed on to you to your students. Lineage is all to often an excuse when the hand is weak. Lineage starts with you.

[PM]

The fact that there is no written evidence of it prior to 1910 is very compelling.

hello, not true, did you read the posts above?

all the best

[Infrazael]

You speak of 1.3 billion people as if they are all one person who is a liar.
What an interesting view. I don't know where to start except to point out that I find that flawed.

Simon, you raise an excellent point. In my experience, very few martial artists practice any form of zen at all. Most that I meet have no idea of what it is, what it is for, why it is, how to do it from seated to moving and so on. it's baffling that it is not inclusive to any tradition that calls itself shaolin or attaches itself to same.

uki - what is a monk?

David what I am referring to is what Mr. Parella also said, regarding the older generation. It is what I see on a day-to-day basis, interactions with many older as well as younger people.

The idea of "face" of "image" is extremely important.

Why do you think education is considered so important? It is not ALL about good Confucian virtues . . . it is so when their child is going to USC or Standord, the parents look too to . . their peers and equals. If that child is going to a lesser institution, they have lost "face" so to speak.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

hello, not true, did you read the posts above?

all the best

I did read it.

And I read the article, well most of it anyway.

I am not sure what you believe that proves? The article cites dozens of books as sources. Many are written in the 90's and even 2000. What exactly does that prove?

In the book I am referring to, they looked at ORIGINAL TEXTS, the actual books written in the 1600, 1700, 1800s. Not copies or citing of works. The original books of the periods. The collector from Taiwan (forget his name) has over 2,000 books in his collections, some dating back to the 1500s! He has collected them from families all over China. This is the closest we can actually come to finding out the truth.

NO WRITTEN WORD OF THE SHAOLIN STORY IN ANY MARTIAL ARTS BOOKS OR TRAINING MANUALS PRIOR TO 1910.

I believe that sentence has a tremendous amount of credibility.

Citing modern books, schools, teachers, websites is all B.S. Finding actual books from that time period is more credible, even through we have to look at them with a squinted eye as well.

Problem is; we all have come to love the Shaolin story. We see it in dozens of films and have become enamored with it. It's hard to see past it and acknowledge the truth. But honestly....the truth makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?

The "Truth" being the research in the book I have mentioned here, IF you believe it.

The "Shaolin Story" is hard for most of us to let go. After all, we've been telling it for so long, and some people have built their school's reputation out of it. Some people take it personally, when in fact, it's just a story.

Just look how people argue about lineage on Frank Mcarthy's threads. (or should I say how "Frank argue's") He even admitted to changing dates of birth to make them fit his story's timeline in the past. He's not even Chinese and he does it! Although to be fair, he now says that he did that with the intention of 'finding out what others knew' in an effort to 'smoke out' the real info. You know, cause everyone is hiding the real info. Just like everyone is hiding the real "kung-fu" from everyone as well.

(Now he is going to start yelling at me, lol)

[SimonM]

this lends prestige to the style, the teacher, and the student; 3 generations later, you now have a "classical" document that everyone holds as the truth;


Another issue with classical writing:

Many of the true classics of Chinese literature (I'm thinking specifically of the dedaojing, the analects and the sunzi) were derived from an oral tradition and were not set to paper until some time after the death of their titular authors. This attribution of a tradition to it's founder, based on a tradition communicated orally was likely widespread in other master/apprentice style pedagogial traditions in early China...

When martial arts were being codified.

So even if any one person DIDN'T embellish any given document overly much the broken telephone phenomenon may have acted over the course of generations as one teacher instructed the next until somebody decided to write down the end result.


the biggest myth of the shaolin temples is that there are still monks there...

There are. I've met them. Hell... I've had conversations about qigong with them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I did read it.

And I read the article, well most of it anyway.

I am not sure what you believe that proves? The article cites dozens of books as sources. Many are written in the 90's and even 2000. What exactly does that prove?

In the book I am referring to, they looked at ORIGINAL TEXTS, the actual books written in the 1600, 1700, 1800s. Not copies or citing of works. The original books of the periods. The collector from Taiwan (forget his name) has over 2,000 books in his collections, some dating back to the 1500s! He has collected them from families all over China. This is the closest we can actually come to finding out the truth.

NO WRITTEN WORD OF THE SHAOLIN STORY IN ANY MARTIAL ARTS BOOKS OR TRAINING MANUALS PRIOR TO 1910.

I believe that sentence has a tremendous amount of credibility.

Citing modern books, schools, teachers, websites is all B.S. Finding actual books from that time period is more credible, even through we have to look at them with a squinted eye as well.

Problem is; we all have come to love the Shaolin story. We see it in dozens of films and have become enamored with it. It's hard to see past it and acknowledge the truth. But honestly....the truth makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?

The "Truth" being the research in the book I have mentioned here, IF you believe it.

The "Shaolin Story" is hard for most of us to let go. After all, we've been telling it for so long, and some people have built their school's reputation out of it. Some people take it personally, when in fact, it's just a story.

Just look how people argue about lineage on Frank Mcarthy's threads. (or should I say how "Frank argue's") He even admitted to changing dates of birth to make them fit his story's timeline in the past. He's not even Chinese and he does it! Although to be fair, he now says that he did that with the intention of 'finding out what others knew' in an effort to 'smoke out' the real info. You know, cause everyone is hiding the real info. Just like everyone is hiding the real "kung-fu" from everyone as well.

(Now he is going to start yelling at me, lol)

We have a thread devoted to Medhi's book and, if I recall correctly, it tends to agree with Brian's book.

[Infrazael]

The stories and novels written by Chinese, for Chinese. They are akin to Western "fantasy" stories in a sense. A dash of adventure and mystery . . . violence and romance.

Wu Xia.

Of course, there is the image of the mysterious Shaolin Temples with its Yi Jing Jing and other esoteric practices.

These kinds of tales gets brought over to the West. Furthermore, you have "kung fu" teachers who propagate their stories to gain more students, achieve credibility, or somehow make themselves look superior to the Westerners.

You see what I'm getting with this?

"What do these yan ren know. . . they are easily deceived. . ."

Do not simply believe every word your masters tell you. ;)

[SimonM]

Of course, dig down 10 metres in just about any populated part of China and you'll find some ruins....


Oh, this is so, so true. Thank you for brightening my morning. :D



Why do you think education is considered so important? It is not ALL about good Confucian virtues . . . it is so when their child is going to USC or Standord, the parents look too to . . their peers and equals. If that child is going to a lesser institution, they have lost "face" so to speak.

Well.... based on my experience... a post-secondary education is seen as the best way to secure stable work in China.

Remember that china has employment pitfalls we just don't have here.

Slavery, witheld wages, factory owners who engineer pay systems designed to keep the workers too poor to advance, just plain crap pay (ok, we have that one in north america too).

The point is that without a degree that's what you can expect in life. If you want a chance to merely be poor but with a stable income that you can depend on you need a degree.

And there ain't no pension plans so when you get too old to work you depend on your kids to look after you.


Problem is; we all have come to love the Shaolin story. We see it in dozens of films and have become enamored with it. It's hard to see past it and acknowledge the truth. But honestly....the truth makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?

<snip>

The "Shaolin Story" is hard for most of us to let go. After all, we've been telling it for so long, and some people have built their school's reputation out of it. Some people take it personally, when in fact, it's just a story.


I agree wholeheartedly.

People are naturally predisposed to want to believe in good stories.

The shaolin story shares some elements with many other REALLY good fiction stories that people REALLY believe. It has a persecuted religion, a persecuting, autocratic government of outsiders, an internal betrayer, hell - people have turned stories like that into religions is it really surprising that martial artists have done likewise?

The question becomes who are we today?

Are we historians seeking truth?
Are we members of an oral tradition trying to preserve the continuity of the teachings along with the parables that communicate it?
Are we consumers seeking the best combat deal?
Are we dispassionate outsiders attempting to form an opinion?

Because, accepting that some teachings are untrue, and that this is part of being human the question really is not what happened then. It's: what do we do with it now?

[PM]

imperial archives (imperial archives, ok, real stuff, manuscripts, not some recently written book). both in Taibei and Beijing which have been made public during last couple of dozens years contain many written sources mentioning Northern/Southern Shaolin and martial arts - Qing and Ming dynasty. moreover, we have more than books, right, but eg. stele inscriptions and other archeological evidence.

you wrote:


The two authors, bring to light that the whole story of the Shaolin Temple, the one with the ancestors escaping and all the martial arts taught there, HAD NEVER BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE 1910 (I believe that is the date, or 1912).

i say - it is not true, and have mentioned relevant sources proving the opposite. both Meier Shahar and Dian H. Murray are sinologists, not some teen Shaw Bros fans. i did not say if the stories (Shaolin monks helping the goverment, burning of the monastery, 5 or or how many people escaping, founding various martial arts or secret societies) are true or not, i just say - the claim above is false, we have plenty of Qing dynasty or older material talking about Shaolin monasteries and their connections to martial arts, we have the stories of 5 ancestors, we have even all these famous heroes like Hung Heigun, Fong Saiyuk mentioned before the turn of 20. century. nothing more, nothing less, ok?

[SimonM]

imperial archives (imperial archives, ok, real stuff, manuscripts, not some recently written book). both in Taibei and Beijing which have been made public during last couple of dozens years contain many written sources mentioning Northern/Southern Shaolin and martial arts - Qing and Ming dynasty. moreover, we have more than books, right, but eg. stele inscriptions and other archeological evidence.


Stele inscriptions verify that Northern Shaolin Temple was around and venerable and an important temple (as one would expect from the home of the first and second patriarchs of ch'an) in the time of Qianlong...

They say little about martial arts.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

imperial archives (imperial archives, ok, real stuff, manuscripts, not some recently written book). both in Taibei and Beijing which have been made public during last couple of dozens years contain many written sources mentioning Northern/Southern Shaolin and martial arts - Qing and Ming dynasty. moreover, we have more than books, right, but eg. stele inscriptions and other archeological evidence.

you wrote:



i say - it is not true, and have mentioned relevant sources proving the opposite. both Meier Shahar and Dian H. Murray are sinologists, not some teen Shaw Bros fans. i did not say if the stories (Shaolin monks helping the goverment, burning of the monastery, 5 or or how many people escaping, founding various martial arts or secret societies) are true or not, i just say - the claim above is false, we have plenty of Qing dynasty or older material talking about Shaolin monasteries and their connections to martial arts, we have the stories of 5 ancestors, we have even all these famous heroes like Hung Heigun, Fong Saiyuk mentioned before the turn of 20. century. nothing more, nothing less, ok?

Their book is not suggesting that there wasn't a temple and it didn't have martial arts. That is not what we are saying here.

The story of the five ancestors and the part about all of these southern styles originating there is the part that doesn't exist in written form pre-1910. Yes, there was a temple. Yes they practiced martial arts there (However, from books written by actual monks there, it seems like it was primarily staff training). Can I believe that there was some involement with the government? Sure, not hard to believe.

But all the Shaw Brothers movies, the temple, the chambers, the dragon and tiger, lifting an urn, the 108 wooden men, the five ancestors fleeing? 90% of all our Southern styles originated in the temple? That the temple was kind of like the Kung-Fu Library that held all the information? THAT I believe is all bunk.

Did the temple burn down? Did the government do it? I can believe that, no problem.

[lkfmdc]

Meier Shahar and Dian H. Murray are sinologists



What exactly is a "sinologist"?

Do they have actual academic historical credentials? What university? What degree? Perhaps I missed that part?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Even that famous story about the monks defending the emperor, something like 30 monks against 300 soldiers - it talks about them fighting with staffs (actually, I think 'staves' is the plural**, but I digress)

Doesn't support the 5 ancestors theory, which we all know is rife with holes anyway,...between dates, and who exactly the 5 ancestors were. If you talk to 5 different people/schools, you get 5 different lists of the ancestors.

Not saying Hung Hei Gwoon or Fong Sai Yuk were not real people. Not saying that they didn't do the styles they are credited with or even hang out/hide out at the temple. I can easily believe that. No problem there.

From reading everything, training in KF for almost 3 decades, spending time in China, having a teacher who was born at the earlier part of the 1900's,

I believe that these martial arts did not originate in Shaolin.

I believe that many martial artists/rebels (as TenTigers mentioned) hid out in temples to avoid being captured by the government.

I believe that they brought their martial arts into the temples and practiced and taught there.

I believe that many styles got altered and mixed and combined during those times, as they were all concerned with developing better fighting methods - not creating, naming and chronicling martial arts styles.

But, these are my beliefs. If someone of you share them, great. If not, you're entitled to your opinions as well.


** - props to Steven H. Laurette

[SimonM]

I would think a sinologist would be an anthropoligist, linguist, sociologist or historian who specialized in the study of China within their field.

Of course that returns to the question of accreditation. Do either have any academic publications that have been submitted to peer review? Do either have any credentials from accredited schools?

(When I was a child I tended to believe anything I read. "It's in a non-fiction book, publishers wouldn't print it if it weren't true" I thought. Then I learned how to learn and began to realize that the most rediculous nonsense is published in non-fiction. This began my affection for peer review as a method of vetting what I read.)

[lkfmdc]

I honestly don't know who those people are, but I'd be curious to find out. And even some "notable" historians have made huge mistakes

[hskwarrior]

Mike parrella,

to be PERFECTLY CLEAR, the ONLY dates i change was Jeung Hung Sing's birth year. Originally, we were TOLD one thing, but because i kept digging, i kept discovering that things were incorrect within certain lineages of fut san hung sing clf.

We were told that jeung hung sing was born in 1814, and no one knew how old he was when he died until the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon re-emerged in 2001 and opened its doors to us gung fu wise and historically. Then we began to fill in the gaps.

Hung Sing history until 2001 was an independent issue. So, was i wrong in changing something as a birthdate when we discovered we were originally wrong? and that is the ONLY thing i am guilty of, if it warrants being guilty. since then, my information hasn't changed.

so, why point me out on a simple birthdate, when YOUR BUDDY DFW shocked the CLF world with his new fake discovery of Choy Fook being the green grass monk. i don't care if you don't like my arse, the fact is that EVERYONE who is researching their backgrounds will changed information as it comes along if they were originally wrong to set the story straight.

in the WORDS of the NOT SO FAMOUS dave ross, "And even some "notable" historians have made huge mistakes"

i changed his birthdate because WE were WRONG......so what?

[lkfmdc]

Frank is like glass, completely transparent.....

[hskwarrior]

and so is your mom.

[lkfmdc]

Frank's probably been waiting to use that for a few days now (it took him a long time to come up with) :rolleyes:

I honestly don't give a rat's butt about any of the CLF history but it is amusing as all heck watching you "cite" sources which would never stand up under real research criteria. Here's a hint Frank, just because it comes out of China and is in Chinese doesn't mean it is accurate. There are 3 books that say Lama was founded by Da Mo at Shaolin :rolleyes:

I know it really bothers you that no one cares about you. But maybe if you weren't an abrasive jerk whose insecurities didn't rage in every post you make you'd win over some friends

[hskwarrior]

and of course, i don't expect anything but negativity from both you are ross. but, i don't care, you won't make me nor break me. so the BEST you can do is talk SHEET. and ANYONE can do that behind a computer.

computer-fu!

[lkfmdc]

Frank, did you actually graduate high school or did they just give you a cookie and send you home one day?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

No frank, you changed the birthdate because it would better suit your argument and support your version. You openly admitted that.

There is a big difference between finding out new info and changing your previous story, to completely and admittedly fabricating information. You lose all credibility when you do that. No one trusts your information.

Plus, you just keep researching Chinese Websites and then translating them with babblefish. What exactly does that prove?

And you make it seem like you are the only one in the world who can now solve this great riddle, like you are Nicolas Cage or something. I am going to trust people who have actually studied and received degrees in Asian history, long before I will believe the 'research' that you do - especially because you have changed dates and then came of with stories about why you changed them - as some kind of 'bait' and a 'test' for others. C'mon....

And you recently got some info from the Hung Muhn society. That is great, but it does not prove anything. It might point in a direction, but if you read this entire thread, you'll understand how the Chinese change history to suit them as well as you did.

Nothing against you Frank, purely analytical info.

No need to slam people and try and be cute and say "your buddy, DFW" and things of that nature. This is a mature thread and everyone is enjoying it.

[hskwarrior]

ok bigmouth,

if I am completely and utterly wrong with my history, then why haven't you presented us with something that proves ME wrong? is it because you are no more than a BS artist? i mean you have all day to come up with the bs you bring to this forum......but you cannot prove me wrong thru any research of your own.

all you can do is bithc and complain about this or that. but you are sooooo incapable of proving me wrong. lmao.

[hskwarrior]

wait, wait, wait......

if know you only focus on me because you love me so much, but why is it that when right in front of your face that CHAN FAMILY of clf is stealing from the fut san hung sing kwoon and you have nothing to say about THAT?

it is the chan family information of CLF that is faulty. chan heung's manuals are filled with discrepancies. for example, jeung hung sing being sent by CHAN HEUNG to fut san in 1867 to open a chan family clf school. LMAO......what about the government records that show jeung hung sing established in fut san in 1851?

but of course, you love me. you don't EVER make mention of the lies the chan family of clf spread.

[hskwarrior]

i got more than just hung mun (not Hung Muhn) history.

Plus, I got the blessings of the Hung Mun's dragon head who is giving me official seal of approval on our history of Jeung Hung Sing.

however aside from Jeung Hung Sing's birthdate, I have been 100% on the money.

[hskwarrior]

ask ya moms dave. she know's EVERYTHING.;)

[SimonM]

Move that the CLF lineage war be taken off the Shaolin Temple Myths thread as nobody except for the CLF people care about it at all.

[hskwarrior]

and YES, in regards to CLF, I am the only person within this family of gung fu that has found the information that i have on the Green Grass Monk, who is far MORE than just Jeung Hung Sing's teacher.

[hskwarrior]

when people bring my name up, then i will come and defend myself.

move this thread to the kung fu section. anywhere dave ross and his crony mike parella are around, nothing but negativity takes place.

[lkfmdc]

Move that the CLF lineage war be taken off the Shaolin Temple Myths thread as nobody except for the CLF people care about it at all.

You'd think Frank would be content with the 300 CLF threads he started here this week :rolleyes:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Move that the CLF lineage war be taken off the Shaolin Temple Myths thread as nobody except for the CLF people care about it at all.

I disagree.

Only FRANK cares about it.

Other CLF people on here are not mentioning it.

Frank was only mentioned as a reference to show how people change dates.

[lkfmdc]

when people bring my name up



Trust us Frank, no one EVER brings your name up :rolleyes:

[PM]

Dian H. Murray is Associate Professor of History and Associate Dean at Notre Dame University. Qin Baoqi, of the Qing History Institute of PRC University in Beijing, is the editor of seven volumes of Tiandihui palace memorials and other documents.

Meier Sahar received his doctorate in East Asian Languages and Civilisatons from Harvard university. He is author of Crazy Ji: Chinese Religion and Popular Literature (1998) and coeditor (with Robert Weler of Unruly Gods: Divinity and Society in China (1996). associate profesor in the Depatrtment of East Asian Studies, Tel Aviv University.

the books are not some cheap martial arts boks, but serious scholar works with everything needed - ie. appendix, notes, glossary, works cited, index. their books were published by University of Hawai'i Press Honolulu and Stanford University Press. (compare these datas and references Kennedy/Guo and their book- which is good, but from a scholar's point of view... )

lkfmdc, who are you? :-) (joke, ok, i know you have a university degree - i have mine too; i actually consider your short text on history of cma to be one of the few interesting texts on cma out there). i just do not understand why you criticise something that you have not read or did not know about.

common guys, i do not know what is the argument about. research, ok? Achilles might not exist, but Troy is proven not to be a myth.

[SimonM]

Ok to summarize what we have ACTUALLY been discussing:

1) There is conclusive evidence of ONE shaolin temple, on Song Shan, in Henan being around since antiquity. There is further evidence that they had an in-house brand of staff-fighting. Though it has not been discussed I think we can also agree that they likely had an in-house brand of qigong.

2) There is annecdotal evidence of a second shaolin temple (often called siu lum by it's proponents which, IIRC, is wade jiles transliteration for the cantonese pronounciation of Shaolin) which may or may not have been burnt down for anti-governmental activity during the Qing dynasty. Some people believe to have found this temple (in Fujian) but critics have pointed out that you can't so much as spit without finding a ruined temple in China... the main reason for the absence of a ruined temple being that somebody nicked the bricks back in the 1960s to build a pig sty or a garage or something. :p

3) Claims beyond that push the boundaries of credability and appear to be communicated folk-tales.

4) Most parties agree that there is a long tradition of fugitives (political and otherwise) seeking refuge from the authorities at temples. This is largely because of the adoption of new names (names in religion) which would allow a fugitive to potentially break from his past history and evade capture. This is NOT unique to Shaolin temple. That, along with the need for protection of monastery grounds against incursion may have led to stories of martial monks, many of whom may have been the same previously mentioned fugitives rather than in-house trained guards.

Fictional examples of this in China are not limited to Shaolin historically... but recent fiction concentrated on that temple.

5) Shaolin temple remains important, regardless of it's association with martial arts, as the temple at which ch'an was formulated by the first patriarch and the temple in which the second patriarch trained and received communication of the dharma.


but Troy is proven not to be a myth.

Not quite.

They found a ruin in the place Troy was supposed to be and some silly b@stard said "I have discovered Troy".

That's not quite the same. ;)

Like China the middle east is lousy with ancient ruins.

[TenTigers]

The Five Ancestors in Hung Mun (Moon, Muhn..)'Traditional History' are different names than the Five Ancestors in Southern Gung-Fu 'Traditional History.'
Triad History also mentions "Ah Tsat" a monk who was punished severely due to his breaking of an incense pot, and turned traitor. Also there is the traitor Ma Fu Yee, as well and in some stories, Bak Mei Do Jung.
(sorry, can't find them now-my pc won't open up adobe acrobat reader)
There was a man in history, Hung Hsia Quan (sp?)who was very active in the rebellion, and his name bears striking resemblance to Hung Xi Kwan(Hung Hei-Guen) enough to link them in legends and of course movies, to each other.
Apologies, this is from memory. Perhaps someone with the resources can look this up.

There is not a fine line, but a tangled mess of many lines linking history, "Traditional History," Allegory, legend, myths,wishfull thinking, and just plain made-up crap.
Even in our own Gung-Fu "Traditional Histories" there is much room for ..speculation.
Fong Chin-yang a woman who learned Fukien White Crane in Wing Chun county
Fong Wing Chun, who combined her snake and crane techniques with her husband, Hung Hei-Guen's Tiger to create Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen
Yim Wing Chun, a woman who learned Gung Fu from the Nun, Ng Mui
Ng Mui who witnesed a fight between a Crane and a Snake
Ahdahtor(sp?) who some say was Ng Mui(Staples' book) witnessed a fight between a White Ape and a White Crane (what are the odds of that happening)
it goes on and on...

[hskwarrior]

no one brings up my name, huh?

Chan Family changed from saying there was NO green grass monk to now having Choy Fook take on that identity.

I changed jeung hung sing's birthdate back to the original of 1824. I originally said that jeung hung sing was born in 1814 because we knew that the chan family changed chan heung's birthdate from 1814 to 1806 to make him look much older than jeung hung sing. That was done on this forum to draw out some fools who were telling lies.

I never wrote a book that i will have to retract because of MISINFORMATION.

[SimonM]

Ng Mui who witnesed a fight between a Crane and a Snake


I loved my Sifu's rendition of this story.

He started by saying "there is a story about how Wing Chun started"
And then he told a very brief gloss of the Ng Mui story.
Then he said "but it's probably not true and besides which it's not important, back to practicing."

And HSKWarrior:

Veracity of your claims aside (because I REALLY don't care) making claims that you know to be false for the purpose of "drawing out" falsehoods from others would have you slaughtered by a peer review board. It's bad research technique.

[lkfmdc]

NO is (or rather, "should") be arguing about the temple in the North (it exists)

Similarly, like EVERY temple in China, it had some martial arts in it...

But the fact remains that the stories are bloated and the myths are many

For some reason, and those reasons would make for a fine study indeed! Secret societies, brotherhoods and rebellions often wrapped themselves in Shaolin... and subsequent martial arts traditions did as well EVEN WHEN THEY HAD NO RELATION TO SHAOLIN AT ALL

[AJM]

Shaolin itself has been influenced by the jesuits since the early 1600's and now the communists[read; jesuits] therefore rendering it useless. The master asassins loath at having any other fighting monks out there.

[hskwarrior]

ok............

[David Jamieson]

all that other stuff aside. I don't think the Chinese hold the title on face games.

I agree that in Martial arts, there have been many an illiterate trying to push a story as truth to prop themselves up and sell some snakeoil in the process.

I don't agree that this is exclusively a chinese cultural thing. It exists in all cultures, yours and mine included.

as for Shaolin, I think that paying homage to them has been done for ages and certainly they have been attributed as a extremely adept group of teachers and pugilists for a few hundred years at least.

I also think that anyone who really goes down into the vomit of it all and roots through and separates the carrots from the peas from the corn, then what is is what is.

History=zero if the person touting it gets knocked to the floor. Your lineage is useless when a mongrel bloodies your nose, your teacher is no one to the guy who breaks your arm, and so on, you get my point.

It seems the "nice to know" has taken to much precedence over the "need to know" all to often when it comes to martial arts.

Having said that, I enjoy training in what I know as Shaolin Kungfu. I never tell someone that I am hitting them, kicking them, throwing them or locking them up with Shaolin kungfu. I never tell them anything, there's too much to do at the time! :)

[Mano Mano]

Move that the CLF lineage war be taken off the Shaolin Temple Myths thread as nobody except for the CLF people care about it at all.
Some of us actually don’t care at all.

[SimonM]

Shaolin itself has been influenced by the jesuits since the early 1600's and now the communists[read; jesuits] therefore rendering it useless. The master asassins loath at having any other fighting monks out there.

That's pots of crazy there.


Some of us actually don’t care at all.

Ok I will ammend my statement:

I move no more CLF lineage war stuff be in this thread as nobody outside of CLF and even some CLF practicioners don't care!

[Sifu at Large]

There was a man in history, Hung Hsia Quan (sp?)who was very active in the rebellion, and his name bears striking resemblance to Hung Xi Kwan(Hung Hei-Guen) enough to link them in legends and of course movies, to each other.

Ten Togers, Is the first Hung you mention the one who led the Taiping rebellion? I remember picking up a book on that one and the name was so close that I got the two confused.


I don't agree that this is exclusively a chinese cultural thing. It exists in all cultures, yours and mine included.

David - Agreed - this extends to all cultures, and is not even the exclusive domain of CMA. The Koreans have cave paintings that one organization is trying to promote as being TKD forms.

On topic - The Secret societies would have most liekly used a tie (real or otherwise) to Shaolin as a recruitment tool. So, if it is not a real tie, there is the motivation for creating one.

As far as the tradition of lies and how to approach the subject, read this offering from Stanley E. Henning

http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/politicallycorrect.pdf

from the above "There is a rising trend in the “Occidental” world of “Oriental” martial arts – the number of “scholars” who, in spite of making pretenses to upholding “academic standards”, are displaying no small amount of intellectual compromise by acting as apologists for the myths surrounding the Chinese martial arts. They do this in a manner which gives one the impression that they somehow feel that to expose these myths is an irreverent act, harming the sensitivities of the Chinese people and insulting to pseudo-intellectual Occidentals seeking a New Age refuge in Oriental mysticism or, worse yet, causing them to lose interest in a subject about which these “scholars” delight in composing involved, ambiguous treatises."

Ah...but we do so love our myths.

[SimonM]

The leader of the Taiping rebellion was Hong Xiuquan.

[TenTigers]

The leader of the Taiping rebellion was Hong Xiuquan.

dat's da guy.;)

[TenTigers]

Frank, who are the five ancestors mentioned in Hung Mun's history?
I know they weren't Jee Siem, Hung Hei-Guen, Bak Mei, Ng Mui, and Fung Do Duk.
Nor were they Hung,Lau, Li ,Mok,and Choy.

[hskwarrior]

TT,

Tsai Te Chung (Choy DakJung), Fong Dai Hung, Ma Chiu Hing, Li SikHoi, and Wu DeDi.

[SimonM]

dat's da guy.;)

He was a wierd guy.

He claimed to be Jesus' brother... seriously...

In fact... this song was very nearly in his honor:

If you haven't heard of me
I wouldn't be surprised
Perhaps you know my relatives
Their names will never die
My mother was a saint
And my brother was a god
But all I am is Jesus' brother Bob

Jesus' brother Bob
Jesus' brother Bob
The nobody relative
Of the son of God
If only I'd been born
Just a little sooner
I'd be more than the brother of God Junior

I have to take the ferry
To cross the gal-li-lee
But not my brother (no not him)
He walks across for free
I finally get to work
About a quarter after nine
Already he's turning water into wine

Jesus' brother Bob
Jesus' brother Bob
The nobody relative
Of the son of God
If only I'd been born
Just a little sooner
I'd be more than the brother of God Junior

One day when I was home
I heard a mighty roar
There was a thousand people
Arrayed outside the door
Help us Jesus, help us
Came the cheering from the mob
But then they got a look at me:
Awh nuts, it's only Bob

Jesus' brother Bob
Jesus' brother Bob
The nobody relative
Of the son of God
If only I'd been born
Just a little sooner
I'd be more than the brother of God Junior

He died upon the cross
I thought that I was free
Finally people would accept me... For me
(Hey Bob) Hi Judas
This was my big chance
To finally get ahead
The next thing you know he's rising from the dead (d'oh!)

Jesus' brother Bob
Jesus' brother Bob
The nobody relative
Of the son of God
If only I'd been born
Just a little sooner
I'd be more than the brother of God Junior

Jesus' brother Bob
Jesus' brother Bob
The nobody relative
Of the son of God
If only I'd been born
Just a little sooner
I'd be more than the brother of God Junior

Aaaahhhh-bob.

(Thanks to the Arrogant Worms for the lyrics)

[hskwarrior]

One thing that NO ONE focuses on is the fact that it was very common for a person in china during those days to possess more than one name. From Chan Heung, to Jeung Yim, Dr. Sun Yat Sen, and even the 5 ancestors were known by more than one name.

so it is easy to get certain people confused. what you need to do is look at the actual chinese written names to see if certain people are one and the same. but for some reason i feel that the usage of gung fu 5 ancestors came after the the Hung Mun 5 ancestors.

[lkfmdc]

I believe, though I have not seen the actual documents, that they have found Bao Jia records for Hung Hei Goon of "Hung Ga" system, though the claim to have been "in Shaolin" is still a big question mark

[hskwarrior]

i have heard that Hung Xiu Kwan wasn't actually a real person before from masters in singapore.

is there any other evidence like family, lodge, or anything that exists today that say they were connected to him?

now, interestingly enough, was hung shiu kwan he real name? or was that his name under the hung mun? does anyone know his shaolin temple name?

[lkfmdc]

如果您haven' t聽說了我我驚奇或許您认识我的親戚他們的名字不会死我的母親是聖徒并且我的兄弟是神但是我是的所有是Je sus' 兄弟鮑伯 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯相對的沒人上帝的兒子如果仅I' d出生少許快 I' d比上帝小輩的兄弟是更多 我必須乘輪渡橫渡gal鋰庇護但是沒有我的兄弟(沒有不是他) 他免费走 我最後得到工作關於在九以後的一個處所已經he' s轉動的水到酒里 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯相對的沒人上帝的兒子如果仅I' d出生少許快 I' d比上帝小輩的兄弟是更多 一天，当我是家时我聽見了一陣強大吼聲有一千個人排列在門之外幫助我們耶穌，幫助我們来自歡呼暴民另一方面 ，但是他們批评了神色我： Awh堅果， it' s只有鮑伯 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯相對的沒人上帝的兒子如果仅I' d出生少許快 I' d比上帝小輩的兄弟是更多 他死了在十字架我認為我自由最终人们會接纳我… 对于我 (嘿鮑伯)餵Judas 這是我的大機會向前最後得到下件事您知道he' 上升從死者(d'的s; 哦!) Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯相對的沒人上帝的兒子如果仅I' d出生少許快 比上帝小輩的兄弟是更多 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯 Jesus' 兄弟鮑伯相對的沒人上帝的兒子如果仅I' d出生少許快 I' d比上帝小輩的兄弟是更多

[SimonM]

Rotflmfao!!!!!!!

123456789

[hskwarrior]

那是很滑稽的 :d :d:d

[PM]

Hung Heigun (Hong Xiguan in putonghua) and Hung Sauchyun (Hong Xiuquan) are 2 different persons, almost 100 years from each other. Southern Shaolin was (if it ever existed) burned down cca. 100-200 years ago before Taiping rebelion.

lkfmdc: yes, i also read that there were found an official records for Hung Heigun, but i did not see them either, so i do not know. i also read there is a grave site of Hung sijou somewhere in Fujian - i also do not know if it is true or not. actually Luk Achoi (who has studied either in Siulam or later under Jisin sim si in Hoitung monastery in Canton) is better documented than Hung Heigun, although there are almost no heroic legends about him.

[lkfmdc]

Hung Heigun (Hong Xiguan in putonghua) and Hung Sauchyun (Hong Xiuquan) are 2 different persons, almost 100 years from each other. Southern Shaolin was (if it ever existed) burned down cca. 100-200 years ago before Taiping rebelion.

lkfmdc: yes, i also read that there were found an official records for Hung Heigun, but i did not see them either, so i do not know. i also read there is a grave site of Hung sijou somewhere in Fujian - i also do not know if it is true or not. actually Luk Achoi (who has studied either in Siulam or later under Jisin sim si in Hoitung monastery in Canton) is better documented than Hung Heigun, although there are almost no heroic legends about him.

I would be curious if the grave site is in his original (ie "real") name or under the "Hung" name. I have seen Bao Jia records where the different names are all listed, I think one had up to 5 "alias" LOL @ that habit

You are left with a lot of possibilities

1. Hung Hei Goon existed and was involved in starting the Hung lineage

2. Hung Hei Goon did not exist and was the creation of Luk or later practicioners

3. Hung Hei Goon existed but wasn't directly related to the Hung Ga lineage, but being famous he was good material as the "si jo"

Frankly, they are all probably equally plausible

[David Jamieson]

That song would pack way more punch if they used "jim" instead of "bob". lol

[PM]

Hung Heigun: well said, i definitely agree.

jsut to add something: when i spoke to my sigung (he is currently 99 years old), he said: well, gung ji fuk fu kyun is not Hung Kyun, it is Siulam Jing Jung, orthodox Shaolin, from Jisin.

both Lam Saiwing and Wong Feihung called their art Siulam, or just simply "martial art" (kyun seut, mou seut). my sigung never surfed on the for Shaolin wawe of fame, for him most important what hapened to his style = Lam Saiwing, but still, absolutely no doubts about Southern Siulam, Jisin simsi etc.

does not prove anything, just interesting fact and point of view of one of the "old timers".

[Yum Cha]

I believe that many martial artists/rebels (as TenTigers mentioned) hid out in temples to avoid being captured by the government.

I believe that they brought their martial arts into the temples and practiced and taught there.

If someone of you share them, great. If not, you're entitled to your opinions as well.


Key point, and yes I agree.

"Temples" in itself is a term worth defining. Some were pious strongholds of spiritual study, devoid of martial arts. Others were waypoints for men run a fowl of the 'the law' where one shaved their head and disappeared behind the walls. Crims - lost souls - demobilised soldiers - revolutionaries. Its no big leap to imagine they brought some skillz to the party.

Lots of anti Ching revolutionaries hid out this way, and went across the country spreading the word.

At least this is what I've been told, for what little its worth...


Simon - saw your post after posting this. Agreed.

[lkfmdc]

Some people take what they are told as the truth and propogate it. Others question. Others outright change. I have heard Gung Jih Fook Fu called "Shaolin" (Siu Lam) but my guess would be that at best it is a reworking

I got a chance to study pre-Wong Yan Lam/pre-long hand, ie ALL short hand Hung Kuen and while you can easily and distinctly see the evolution, you can also clearly see evolution. This "pre era" Hung was exactly as the oral legends describe it (short hands, narrow stances, less area covered, etc). Gung Jih Fook Fu is substantially different.

[lkfmdc]

Key point, and yes I agree.

"Temples" in itself is a term worth defining. Some were pious strongholds of spiritual study, devoid of martial arts. Others were waypoints for men run a fowl of the 'the law' where one shaved their head and disappeared behind the walls. Crims - lost souls - demobilised soldiers - revolutionaries. Its no big leap to imagine they brought some skillz to the party.

Lots of anti Ching revolutionaries hid out this way, and went across the country spreading the word.

At least this is what I've been told, for what little its worth...

There is no question/tons of evidence to support the idea that those who ran afoul of society often shaved their heads and entered a monastery to avoid the "heat". Sometimes simply to hide but other times as conditional upon not being punished (ie, "we can execute you, or you can become a monk and leave lay society").

[lkfmdc]

Oh, going back to Taiping rebellion. Not only weird for the Jesus angle, but quite illuminating in terms of China and Chinese society

You have a guy who drops out of mainstream society because he can't pass his exams. He is then able to co-op already existing militia. He didn't create an army, the militia were already there. The peasants were already militarized because of bandits and feuds. Those with fighting skills, ie "martial artists" had already found a haven in the country side, where the law was absent and violence was the solution to ongoing social tensions

[PM]

well, history, structure and development of gjffk is another story - i have mentioned it just because of the older generation's point of view on Siulam. Wong Feihung is very well documented historical person, and from him it is just 1-3 generations to Luk Achoi/Hung Heigun, disciples of Jisin simsi.

[Yum Cha]

Ok, so there are scholarly and less scholarly references. Better and worse academics.

Oral traditions that we know are myths, constructed and passed down for generations.

Still, I think there is a way to resolve the two, simply give each its due. If history is your forte, have at it bro!

The myths were, like many other myths in many other societies and religions, created for a reason. Sometimes the reason was an individual's vanity. Other times, it was for a lesson. Other times, pure entertainment.

Its not an either or proposition if you have half a brain. Take them for what their worth and enjoy.

[lkfmdc]

well, history, structure and development of gjffk is another story - i have mentioned it just because of the older generation's point of view on Siulam.



my personal opinion would be that there IS a lot of original Siu Lam in that set, that it is close to what they learned originally.. just that it evolved (as all things SHOULD)




Wong Feihung is very well documented historical person, and from him it is just 1-3 generations to Luk Achoi/Hung Heigun, disciples of Jisin simsi.



Luk Ah Choi seems to be no question about, but what if he "created" his teacher and the temple story? If I had a school in 34th street in Manhattan and told you that I had trained in a mountain in NJ and there were no cars, no PATH train, no telephones and no internet, how could you check up? How many would just say "ok"?

How many just say "ok" today? Even with the internet to double check stuff?

[TenTigers]

there's also a good chance that these legends are not nearly as old as we would like to believe. What reason would Luk Ah Choy have for creating such a facinating and heroic history? So at what point in time would people be concerned about promoting their style and schools?


Not sure if this is a can of worms people want opened....

In America, if we want to sell something, we say,"New and Improved!"
In China, they say,"From and ancient and very old traditional formula!"

[lkfmdc]

there's also a good chance that these legends are not nearly as old as we would like to believe. What reason would Luk Ah Choy have for creating such a facinating and heroic history? So at what point in time would people be concerned about promoting their style and schools?


Not sure if this is a can of worms people want opened....

In America, if we want to sell something, we say,"New and Improved!"
In China, they say,"From and ancient and very old traditional formula!"

spot on.... in addition, uneducated and/or low class peasants attempting to raise their position with elaborate geneologies and affiliations

[hskwarrior]

I SAY :eek: SPOT ON :eek: SPOT ON I SAY:eek: :D:p

[taai gihk yahn]

I think that the "take home" message here is that, given the vagaries and vicissitudes of Chinese MA history, indeed China's history in general, everything needs to be taken with a big grain of salt;

for example, as Simon (I think) pointed out, the fact that many of the seminal philosophical texts (Analects, Dao De Jing, CHuang Tzu) were pro forma attributed to a specific semi-mythical individual would be from a western scholarly perspective, a huge problem, where as from a Chinese perspective, would not only be not a problem, but would be expected; the western penchant for precise info as to the origin of a certain text would be less important than the content; attribution is almost an afterthought - sort of like "ok, this was written by so-and-so sage-like dude, very wise and hoary and all that, now get over it and pay attention to what 'he' is trying to tell you, numb-nut!"

in regards to MA history, forget about something as old and variegated as Shaolin - just look at Yang taiji - very well documented since at least 3rd gen (Yang Cheng Fu), but you go back to 1st gen (Yang Lu Chan) and it's a nightmare - what exactly did he learn, how did he learn it / was he officially acknowledged as a Chen family student or not, who did he teach what, why did he change the Chen form he learned (personal evolution or because he only got bits of the system), was he really that good or just freakin' huge, etc.; of course, go back to the history of Chen and here, the "origin" theories of taiji are legion and heterogeneous, despite evidently long standing documentation available in Chen village - anyway, not looking to debate particulars, but my point is that, even in a relatively stable system with a lot of documentation, you can have conflicting opinions

I think at this point, to devote reams of paper to argue the relative authenticity of a system is, after a certain point, a bit of a black hole in terms of what you get out of it relative to what you put into it - to argue whether one DCM (dead Chinese male) fought / killed / learned from / cleaned the toilet of another DCM is, at least on some level, somewhat of an exercise in futility; my feeling is that, document what you know, caveat its source accordingly, and then let it go; for example, the whole Green Grass Monk thing, just by way of example as it's being discussed here - obviously some people claim one thing, others claim something else; Frank has evidently done some independent research that he believes supports his polemic about misrepresentation by other folks, which, if true (I'm not suggesting it isn't - I just personally have not read enough / know enough about it to judge it at all), is certainly a good thing as it adds to the body of credible knowledge on the topic; but beyond that, and this is not to be a wise asz about it, what does it contribute? for example, does it give some insight as to the content of the system, vis-a-vis how certain moves "should" be done differently, or does it reveal a previously unknown aspect of how the style should be trained? if I have knowledge of the "true" origins and lineage of taiji, can that help me "decode" aspects of the system, and ultimately make the training more effective? if so, that's awesome; and that way, it side steps the never-ending impasse of who has the "true" lineage and all that: researching ones origins, i believe, will never be 100&#37; conclusive - even the "pros" make mistakes, or come up with "irrefutable" evidence that, 10 years later, gets disproved; and again, if one puts all that time into doing it, it seems to me that there ought to be more return on the investment then just being able to verify ancestry for its own sake...

[Infrazael]

I leave for one day and this entire thread becomes one giant clusterf*ck.

Amazing.

[SimonM]

spot on.... in addition, uneducated and/or low class peasants attempting to raise their position with elaborate geneologies and affiliations

I may be a sandal weaver but my great great great great grandfather was a prince of the Han dynasty. Give me an army.

[diego]

article

Meier Shahar, "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" (from JSTOR, .pdf, 1,59 MB)

http://www.lghk.org/web/shahar.zip


thanks for the link

[CFT]

I may be a sandal weaver but my great great great great grandfather was a prince of the Han dynasty. Give me an army.Funny that ... my grandfather 28 generations ago married a princess of the Song dynasty. Can I have a brigade? I don't want to be greedy ;)

[SimonM]

Well... it worked for Liu Bei.

[hskwarrior]

The Riddle of Southern Shaolin

(Translated from Shaolin Fang Go, by Wen Yu Chen ISBN:7-5306-2830-5)


Section 1:

On April 4, 1992 the Putian city government held a press conference to announce that in a township therein the remnants of the Southern Shaolin Temple had been found. Xin Hua and 19 other Chinese and international news agencies showed up for the conference. Soon after, the news was published in Xin Hua and Zhong Xin outlets. The stories said that the work on the theory that Southern Shaolin was located within the Lin Quan Yuan in Putian's Lin Shan neighborhood began with the “Southern Shaolin Temple Remnants Meeting” on Sept 14, 1991.

Attending this meeting were more than 30 scholars and experts from seven provinces and was led by the head of the Chengdu Sports Administration, Prof. Yu Yun Tai, Chinese People’s University (Renmin Daxue) professor Tai Bao Qi, and professor Luo Zhao of the Chinese Social Science World Religion Research Center. The meeting’s main presentation of evidence was a piece of research by the Fukien (Fukien) Cultural Center, Archaeological Team member Lin Gong Yu, entitled “Putian Lin Quan Yuan ruins discovery and early analysis.

According to this report, from Dec. 1990 to May 1991 a 1,325 square meter ruin was found with strata beneath that included Song, Yuan, Ming and late Qing dynasty periods. The remnants accord with building techniques of Ming through Song times. At the same time, Song dynasty era carvings were found that have clear writing: “Lin Quan Yuan, Enlightened Teacher Nan Ti's tower, Tian You,” thus proving it is indeed Lin Quan Yuan. However, Song era writers record in the “San Shan Zhi” (records of San Shan) report that Lin Quan Yuan construction was begun in 557, which is a long way from the Song era (1100”s).

The archaeologist proposes the following theory in the section “Concerning the problem of the Southern Shaolin Temple:” “This find has not found any direct evidence of the Southern Shaolin Temple, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence which points to this Lin Quan Yuan as being the Southern Shaolin mentioned by so many modern scholars, legends, novels, and stories among the people”.

5 points support this conclusion. First, correct place. Many scholarly reports are that the southern temple was somewhere in Fukien's Putian “Jiu lian” Mountains. Moreover, the Lin Quan Yuan is found in the Lin Shan neighborhood, which was called Quan Shan in Song times. “Jiu Lian Mountain came along much later as a result of secret society activity.

Second, the Lin Quan Yuan had martial monks. Within the ruins a large stele was on which was carved, “This temple’s martial monks Yong Qi and Jin Qi built a trough in Sept. 1063, placed by Ti Rong.” The archaeologist concludes, “Martial monks are naturally associated with Shaolin”.

Third, Lin Quan Yuan’s location, “Created the right conditions for Northern Shaolin disciples to visit”.

Fourth, Lin Quan Yuan is surrounded by several other temples, and these temples” records and steles have many references to Shaolin disciples. For example, Ku Zhu Temple, Jiu Lian Yan Temple and others record that Shaolin monks built them. The nearby temple’s relationship with Lin Quan Yuan was very close and some even counted themselves as sub-temples. This seems to show that Lin Quan Yuan could be the Southern Shaolin.

Fifth, the Southern Shaolin, “Has always and forever been related to Hong Mun (early triad) legends.” Lin Quan Yuan’s own destruction seems to coincide with the legends of early Qing demolition of the Southern Shaolin temple. The temple’s northern building, “Red Flower Pavilion” (built in 1646) has written over the door, “All things return to the 3-foot sword, in the time of the 5 clouds, the 7-star flag will appear” which seem to relate to the Hung Mun's leader, Wan Yun Long. Not coincidentally, many of the late Ming loyalists, “Left home” became monks and entered the Putian, Fukien, Jiulian Southern Shaolin Temple.

Overall, much of the scholarship in the report is trustworthy. However, the theories in the “Concerning the Southern Shaolin problem” are not. For example, Hua Qiao University’s Lin Yi Zhou’s work “New Study of the Southern Shaolin Temple” presents several doubts:

Fan Wen Lian's 1941 revision of the “Complete History of China” (school text book), struck out the line “Kang It’s 13th year, the triads were formed; they were begun by the Putian, Fukien Jiu Lian Mountain Shaolin Temple monks” because it was seen as incorrect and nothing but legend because Putian does not have a Jiu Lian Mountain. Also, “Martial monks” are not solely from Shaolin. In the Yuan Dynasty, the Quan Zhou Kai Yuan monastery also had fighting monks. Therefore, the words “Martial monks” carved on the stele cannot be definitively related to Shaolin, northern or southern.

In November 1992 I asked about the problem of Lin Quan Yuan and Southern Shaolin, and after much debate, my opinion was asked for. I replied “There is nothing in the Song-Shan (northern) Shaolin Temple’s writings, or other materials we have currently, to indicate a Southern Shaolin Temple. Whether or not Lin Quan Yuan is or isn’t, much remains to be seen and only hard research will reveal the truth.”

[hskwarrior]

Section 2:

On July 9, 1992 the “Fukien Daily” ran a Zhong Xin wire story entitled, “Important discovery about Southern Shaolin Temple found in Fukien’s Quan Zhou.” The article said, “Quan Zhou historical scholars had recently discovered a Qing dynasty record book entitled Records of the Western Mountain. Within this record the location of the Southern Shaolin Temple was revealed as being just north of Quan Zhou in the Qing Yuan Mountains.” The story also reported, “Well-known Quan Zhou historian Chen Si Dong introduced the find to this reporter saying that the recently reopened Eastern Zen Shaolin Temple is built on the remains of the Southern Shaolin Temple mentioned in the Records. The Records were written during the Qing dynasty’s Jia He and Dao Guang emperor’s reigns. Furthermore, the book shows that during the Tang Dynasty’s Zhen Yuan emperor’s reign, Quan Zhou’s scholar Xu Ji's “Records of Central Min” (Min = present day Fukien, Taiwan and northern Kwangtung) have references to Qing Yuan Shaolin Temple”“.

Mr. Chen Si Dong later had 13 articles in the Quan Zhou Evening News covering “Southern Shaolin Temple at Quan Zhou.” His resources included the Song Dynasty work Jiading WenLing Records” edited by Minister Cheng Zhuo, a Ming Dynasty copy of the “History of the Qing Yuan area” an 1810 copy of the Records of the Western Mountain, the 1927 “Martial Lineage of the Fu” and the 1941 “Shaolin Martial Arts Reference” by Tang Hao.

Here are the main points Mr. Chen covers. First, all the materials, old to new, record the location of the Southern Shaolin Temple as Quan Zhou’s eastern area, in the Qing Yuan Mountain’s eastern peak. The Records of the Western Mountain, say “The wisdom of the 13 Empties” entered Min, built the Shaolin Temple on Qing Yuan Mountain, and settled there. Min's martial monks all begin from this place. ”The Shaolin Temple began with 13, and a high wall. The temple’s monks number in the thousands, with hundreds of acres and fragrant forests.” Because Quanzhou Shaolin opposed the Min ruler, Wang Shen Zhi, the temple was razed for the first time. In the Song dynasty because “Thousands of monks opposed the Mongols” the Temple was razed for a second time. Then in 1763, the Qing emperor issued orders to raze it again, and it wasn’t rebuilt. Nevertheless, from Mr. Chen's articles, it is clear that his most relied upon resource is the Record of the Western Mountain.

Current understanding is that the “Record” was originally 12 volumes, but more than half were lost in times of war. Still, descendants of Cai Chun Cao saved six volumes. Then, during the Cultural Revolution, two more volumes were lost. In 1990, Hua Qiao University’s Lin Shao Zhou, while doing research in Jinjiang made several important discoveries, but which are currently unpublished.

The Record that Mr. Chen relies on is an essay of about 1800 characters and has been found to be full of mistakes. Therefore, it can only be taken as fictional. For example, the “Record” reports that the abbot of Shaolin during the end of the Sui dynasty was “Qi Xuan.” However, Shaolin's records report no such person. The “Record” also reports that the “13 Staff Monks” were named “First Empty, Half Empty, Non Empty, Emptiness of Color, Zen Empty, Understanding Empty, Enlightened Empty, Empty Wisdom, Quiet Empty, Really Empty, Truly Empty, Empty Law and Empty Rule.” However, this is impossible. In the Sui and Tang times, there are no examples of this sort of naming convention for groups of monks.

The Record also says that of the thirteen monks, seven died among the soldiers of king Zheng. However, there is no record of this elsewhere. Neither is there supporting evidence for the statement that “The wisdom of the thirteen empties entered Min” from here (i.e. Chan evangelism in the region started here.) In any case, the articles in the “Record” concerning Shaolin in the Ming and Qing dynasties are more numerous. Perhaps they are records of local stories, but it is difficult to call it history (given their content). In conclusion, the “Records of the Western Mountain” is simply full of errors. It cannot be trusted to as evidence of Quanzhou being the location of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

[hskwarrior]

Section 3:

Fukien Province’s Fukien County has had a Shaolin Yuan ever since Song times. After the Southern Song capitulated to the Yuan, a Quanzhou native Liang Ke Jia revised the “Three Mountain Record” in 1182. Volume 36 is called “Fukien County Temples.” Within this volume is a small section, “ The Dong Lin Temple in Xin Ning area “the same area as the Shao Lin Yuan.” The Ming dynasty scholar, Putian native Huang Zhong Zhao edited the “Records of the Min Area” in around 1499, and this also records that there are eight temples in the Xin Ning area of Fukien County: Fang Dong, Dong Lin, Hou Tang, Long Xi, Zhao Fu, Long Ju, Shaolin and Da Xu. Among these temples, the first to be built was the Fang Dong with construction beginning in 569. The Dong Lin temple was built sometime between 1086 and 1094. Hou Tang was built in 1117. However the other five temple’s construction dates weren’t recorded.

On June 4, 1993 the Fukien government’s Chen Hua Guang, Xu Chang Tong, and Yu Da Zhu found the remains of this aforementioned Shaolin in the Shaolin district of Dong Zhang township. The proof comes in two forms. First, the southern face of the Xia Yang bridge is inscribed “Shaolin Yuan’s Sha Men encouraged everyone to contribute merit and himself donated a bridge. Ju Fang De donated money because of Sha Men’s encouragement. The monks Xian Xi and Xian Gan each donated 400.” On the north face is inscribed the time of construction, and a commemoration of Sha Men’s speech. The bridge is about 300 meters from Shaolin Yuan.

Another piece of evidence is a large stone stele on which is inscribed “Yue Xiu, a monk on this mountain set this stone in the twelfth month of the fourth year of Da Guan's reign. Monk on this mountain (dang shan seng) is most often preceded by Shaolin. Fukien Provincial government and Fuzhou City archeological teams excavated the site in July and August of 1995 and March through October of 1996.

The excavations uncovered a site of over 5000 square meters, currently the largest temple found within China. The archaeologists” report found four strata: Northern Song, Southern Song, Ming/Qing and nearly modern. There seem to be strata below the Northern Song level, however it has yet to be excavated. All the levels excavated have temple remnants in them. On more than 20 pottery shards that came from the site, writing was found on the bottom. The writings say “(for) Shaolin Yuan Use” (1 piece), “Shaolin” (7 pieces), “Shaolin “gong si”“ (2 pieces, probably a contraction of Shaolin Yuan Monk “gong si.” The importance being that a county’s head monk was titled “gong si,” a practice that began in the Northern Song, “Shaolin residence” (1 piece) and several having “rice,” “king,” “dragon builder,” and other characters.

These shards found over several strata prove that it is the site of the Shaolin Yuan. The archaeologists also point out that the location on the mountain, the size and orientation of the complex are all very similar to the Deng Feng (Northern) Shaolin temple. The Shaolin Yuan is in the northeastern corner of Fukien county, at the intersection of three counties: Fukien, Putian, and Yong Tai. The area is especially beautiful with warm breezes and rich vegetation, a perfect place for Chan (Zen) reflection. From the site, directly east is Fukien bay, and to the south is Xing Hua bay, which makes going to sea very convenient too. Indeed, one can easily say that it is the reflection of “Outside of Zen, soldierly things are discussed” (A saying of the Northern Shaolin).

On Nov. 21, 1997 I visited the site with Fuzhou City’s Cultural Bureau Chief Zeng Yi Dan and archeological team lead Lin Guo, who carefully explained the findings and gave me a copy of the newly published “Fukien Shaolin Temple.” Still, it isn’t clear when the temple was built, or what its connection to the Deng Feng (Northern) Shaolin Temple might be.

According to what is known at this point, during the Southern Song to the Yuan Dynasties, the Shaolin Yuan taught “Yang Qi” Chan (Zen). A chart by Qing Zhe Ji shows that Yuan Wu Ke Qing (1063 - 1135) taught both Ta Hui Zhong XX (1089 - 1163) and Hu Qiu Shao Long (1078 - 1136). Ta Hui's lineage includes on the one hand a series of unknown pupils leading to Ji Zhao and Wo An Ben Wu (1286-1343) and on the other Zhuo An De Guang (1121-1203), and Shaolin Miao Song, who later taught Yu Gu Yuan Zhi (1196 - 1266).

As for Hui Qiu's lineage, he taught Ying An Xian Hua (1103- 1163) who transmitted the Law to Mi An Xian Jie (1118 - 1186) who, in turn had two pupils, Gu Chan Zi Jing and Tie Bian Yun Shao. Zi Jing was also involved in transmitting Zen to Yu Rong Yuan Zhi. Chong Zhao taught Shaolin De Cheng (1203-1254).

The importance of this is that in both the lineage of Da Hui (a.k.a. Miao Xi), as well as Hu Qiu’s later generation Shaolin Yuan disciples are to be found: Shaolin De Cheng and Shaolin Miao Song. Miao Song (a.k.a. Fo Xing) was known as Shaolin Miao Song because he resided in Shaolin Yuan. He was the 29th abbot of Hangzhou northern mountains Miao Ji Temple and also the 29th abbot of Hangzhou southern mountains Jing Xuan Temple. He wrote a ten volume “Transmissions of Shaolin Master Miao Song,” but it has been lost.

Records of Master Ji Zhao can be found in the “Ben Wu” volume of “History of Ming dynasty Advanced Monks.” From this work, we learn that Ji Zhao is Da Hui’s fifth generation disciple and that he is a monk of the Shaolin and Da Ban order.

Gu Chan Zi Jing, Tie Bian Yun Shao, and Shaolin De Cheng are all Fukien natives. De Cheng was a Shaolin Yuan monk and this is confirmed by a well-known Southern Song writer Liu Ke Zhuang (1187 - 1296). In volume 159 of his notes “Complete Collection of a backwater man,” there is an essay that introduces two of his “outside friends” --- Masters Shaolin De Cheng and Jiu Zuo Zu Ri. From Liu's works, De Cheng's life can be roughly worked out as follows: 1203, born into the Zheng family of Fukien County. In 1217, became a monk at 15 and was given the Buddhist name of De Qing. His teacher was Tie Bian Yun Shao. He probably “left home” (became a monk) at Shaolin Yuan. In any case, he studied Chan (Zen) in Shaolin Yuan and Ding Zhou for about 22 years, 1242-1244 Lived in Cao An. 1245 - 1247, lived in Weng Chi An. 1248 - 1254 lived in Hangzhou's Jing Xuan temple.

These Shaolin Yuan monks all lived around the end of the twelfth century and into the end of the thirteenth, which is to say from the Southern Song dynasty Guang Chong years to the end of the Southern Song. In the North, this equates to the Jin dynasty Zhang Chong years to the beginning of the Yuan dynasty. At the same time in the Deng Feng (Northern) Shaolin Temple, the monks were members of the “Lan Qi” sect and didn’t change to the “Cao Dong” sect until after 1220.

The gate mentioned earlier with its “Monk on this mountain” was built in 1110 and the fact that the words “Shaolin Yuan” weren’t inscribed is a hint that it wasn’t called that during those Northern Song times. If the Lan Qi sect followers of Northern (Deng Feng) Shaolin had come south, it would have had to between 1161 and 1220. Perhaps the Yang Qi style (of Zen) is of the Lan Qi sect. Abbot Fu Rong built the Deng Feng Shaolin’s “Zi Xue Pavilion” between 1248 and 1254 and within it is the “70 word naming chart.” Moreover, the De Cheng of the Fukien Shaolin, disciple of Ji Zhao “s “De” is the 21st generation, while “Xu” is the 26th. It is impossible for the teacher to be after the student. Also, the words “Xian, “Ying,” Yuan,” etc of other Shaolin Yuan monks they don’t show up on the Deng Feng naming list. This goes further to show that even after the Yuan dynasty the Northern and Southern Shaolin temples developed alone. Some other reasons include that the Deng Feng temple had already changed to the Cao Dong sect and the southern-Song Fukien temple’s inhabitants did not accept Mongolian Yuan dynasty rule, and didn’t recognize the abbot of Deng Feng (Northern) Shaolin.

The Deng Feng temple has a large iron bell that was cast on October 25, 1336. The bell’s inscription includes those temples that were under Shaolin’s administration, a total of 23 temples. All of them are in the Henan area. Another Shaolin temple, near Beijing at Panshan, is also not on the list. Of course, individual monks may have made visits, but there are no examples recorded in the evidence.

In the Ming dynasty’s Jia Jing years, the Shaolin “martial monks” were called out to fight coastal pirates. Their example of chivalry and bravery must have had a large impact on the coastal people. With the renown of the pirates being fought in the region for over 10 years, the Fukien people must have been especially impressed. Fukien’s Shaolin Temple monks must have gotten a lot of encouragement. Then, during the early Qing dynasty when the triads were organized the call to “Overthrow the Qing and return the Ming” was heard. The Shaolin martial monk’s earlier loyalty to the Ming was deliberately used as an example to rally involvement in a strategic war and encourage boldness. Moreover, there’s a rich tradition that Fukien Shaolin monks joined the triads. It is clear that the discovery of the Fukien temple has given this theory new evidence and advanced it toward verity.

[hungmunhingdai]

嵩山少林寺曹洞
正宗傳續七十字輩訣
福慧智子覺
了本圓可悟
周洪普廣宗
道慶同玄祖
清靜真如海
湛寂淳貞素
德行永延恆
妙體常堅固
心朗照幽深
性明鑒崇祚
忠正善禧祥
謹志原濟度
雪庭為導師
引汝歸鉉路

[hungmunhingdai]

魁星踢斗反天乎
大鹏展翅清明流
佛拜五湖复四海
日月拱照明当头

[hskwarrior]

one very similar was used by the Fut San Hung sing kwoon as well, hungmunhingdai

[hskwarrior]

“大鵬展翼反天手, 魁星踢鬥清名留,拱拜五湖复四海,日月拱照萬世流”

[kfman5F]

This site has pictures (including excavated weapons) and the information posted earlier.

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/South%20Shaolin%20Temple1.htm

[hskwarrior]

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/South%20Shaolin%20Temple1.htm

[uki]

This site has pictures (including excavated weapons) and the information posted earlier.

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/South&#37;20Shaolin%20Temple1.htmi had that wonderful feeling of deja vu when i got to the bottom of the page that link jumps to... here's mine, it took four masons to put on the truck when i got this a few years back. great for strength training, especially horse stances, for greater conditioning it is good to stand on stakes or poles in the ground and lift and squat from a higher center. http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/IMG_1074.jpg :D

[David Jamieson]

they have no idea what the stones were used for, although they resemble anchor stones used on junks or older style sailing vessels.

they don't appear to be the typical stone locks that would be used, so they could be weights used to measure grain as well in large quantities.

the shaolin were known for using all sorts of strange devices in their training...at least by word of mouth and through all the holdover stuff that's been carried forward.

read that article carefully though and it raises even more questions than it answers.

Even after that find, it is still considered inconclusive. That in and of itself says a lot.

[uki]

i am planning on using my stone as a counter-weight for a simple elevator that would take you up to my deck... i just got to get the pulley system worked out first.

[SimonM]

HSK Warrior:

Parts 1 & 2 present no compelling evidence that the temple being excavated is Souther Shaolin.

Part 3 is primarily conjecture - with the main exception being the bridge inscription and the pottery shards. Those represent compelling but certainly not conclusive evidence. The information from part 3 certainly contains enough evidence to warrant further research.

[David Jamieson]

more from another author regarding the materials found on the site posted above.

as an aside, that site is my former kungfu teacher's.

He received the info from Simon Scholten who published that stuff a few years ago.

this link updates that info:

html google link to updates (http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:_w9W8ug5pRIJ:www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/staff/richard/shaoshaolinsi.doc+Simon+Scholten&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&client=firefox-a)

if you look at the updates, there are now 3 southern temples and each claims they are more important than the next even though there is not one lick of evidence to support any of them as shaolin temples. :p

[Yum Cha]

Are we going to have to burn it down AGAIN?!

[David Jamieson]

Are we going to have to burn it down AGAIN?!

Do you have long white eyebrows, taoist kungfu and a hatred of corrupt fat and monied buddhist monks? If so, you are qualified! lol

[SimonM]

I have long eyebrows.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have long eyebrows.

Dude, you should dye them white !!

[hskwarrior]

if simon dye's his white ill dye mine red :D

[SimonM]

ROFL...

Considering I don't share the kungfu movie bias against the Qing dynasty...

Ok, I'll just go ahead and say it: Qianlong was just about the most competent emperor China had in the last milennium and Yongzheng wasn't much worse.

Ming started going downhill with the second half of the reign of Yongle (because the bureaucracy got REALLY nervous about spending more money after Yongle basically built Beijing and started guarding the purse strings with a conservativism that would make the Tories blush) and didn't ever really turn it around from there. :p

[Infrazael]

I would say Kang Xi and then Yong Zheng. ;)

Like father, like son.

Qianlong was a bit TOO Sinocentric for my liking, but he was also a very very good Emperor.

I can't share the bias since I'm from Liaoning and I am Manchu . . . :cool:

[SimonM]

Kangxi did a good job too.

I am a celt and thus my bias is an anti-monarchal one rather than being directed at any particular set of monarchs. That said when assessing monarchs that trio were decent rulers.... as far as monarchs go. ;)

[hskwarrior]

this might be a silly question, but has anyone here read "the deer and the caldron"?

i would like to know if this book is purely fiction, or based on facts.

[Sherlock Holmes]

nowadays,there are many films and TV including KUNG FU element, even in Hollywood,like 007 James Bond.
http://www.dvdsetshop.com

[Sherlock Holmes]

Shaolin temple is always connected with KUNG FU. In films, many youths go to it to learn KUNG FU. Sometimes, the power of KUNG FU may be exaggerated, like in “heros”.
http://www.dvdsetshop.com

[CFT]

this might be a silly question, but has anyone here read "the deer and the cauldron"?

i would like to know if this book is purely fiction, or based on facts.It is mostly fiction, but Jin Yong is adept at working some historical facts into his novels.

[hskwarrior]

thanks cft.

i read that too.

[SimonM]

Jin Yong...

I know that name....

What else has he wrote that I might have heard of?

[hskwarrior]

cft.....or anyone for that matter,

do people consider the deer and the cauldron a source of information because it may be mixed with historical facts?

[SimonM]

Oh!!!!


I remember now!

He wrote Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre (which I saw a movie version of and is on my to-read-in-translation list)
And he wrote Demi Gods and Semi Demons (which is HIGH on my to-read list if I can ever get my hands on a translation)

He's the best Wuxia author alive today according to most sources.

I'd absolutely NEVER use him as a source of historical information!

It'd be even less valid than using Gao Xingjian as a source of historical information on the period from 1960-1980 - and I wouldn't use Gao as a historical source either... because as good a novel as Soul Mountain is... it's still a work of fiction!

[CFT]

You can't use JY's works as a source of information unless you are talking about wuxia fiction. Although he draws on historical figures and events, he takes poetic license and has been known to change event dates for example. It is difficult to distinguish between fact and fiction - he is very good at what he does.

You can use his work to identify historical figures that you are interested in and go and do some independent research using proper sources.

Simon, some translation links for you. Fan translations of some of his novels. Crunched by software then edited by hand to improve readability. Not bad. A bit clumsy in places because it is difficult to translate elegantly. I think if you know Chinese you can work out what the original is.

http://members.cox.net/foxs/
Eagle Shooting Hero (http://members.cox.net/foxs/loch.htm)
Divine Eagle, Gallant Knights (http://members.cox.net/foxs/roch.htm)
Heaven Sword Dragon Saber (http://members.cox.net/foxs/hsds.htm)

[hskwarrior]

oh, so i'd be able to use him a s source in regards to the 5 ancestors since they mention each one and the name of their lodges and so forth ( in my bibliography i mean). i know the story's behind them may be fiction, but the there are actual triad lodges that were started by some of the 5 ancestors.

Lee Sik Hoi started the Red Spear Society.

[SimonM]

You can't use JY's works as a source of information unless you are talking about wuxia fiction.

Simon, some translation links for you. Fan translations of some of his novels. Crunched by software then edited by hand to improve readability. Not bad. A bit clumsy in places because it is difficult to translate elegantly. I think if you know Chinese you can work out what the original is.

http://members.cox.net/foxs/
Eagle Shooting Hero (http://members.cox.net/foxs/loch.htm)
Divine Eagle, Gallant Knights (http://members.cox.net/foxs/roch.htm)
Heaven Sword Dragon Saber (http://members.cox.net/foxs/hsds.htm)

Thanks... parts are showing up on Wuxiapedia but it's slow because they translate without text editor crunching.


oh, so i'd be able to use him a s source in regards to the 5 ancestors since they mention each one and the name of their lodges and so forth

I wouldn't if I were you. Citing a fiction reference in a non-fiction book is a good way to ensure that nobody takes your work seriously. Even if you are certain a piece of information from that book is verifiable find a different source.

[hskwarrior]

cool, thank you for that. because it was a novel i did think twice about it..

i have used w.p. morgan and books like his as a reference though.

I tend to agree with the current wave of people who feel the Hung Society was established in the 1760's and not during the Ming Dynasty. Part of this is because our founder of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut learned from the Green Grass Monk who is one of the 5 Ancestors. According to our history, Jeung Hung Sing went to find the old monk who went by the name of Ching Cho. So if the green grass monk was a young warrior in the 1760's he would have definately been a old man by the 1841 came around, the very year Jeung Hung Sing began learning from him.

if The hung mun was established in the ming dynasty, the green grass monk would have only been a pile of dust by the time 1841 came around.

you, another thing i find interesting is that almost 30 years prior to Jeung Hung Sing's passing in 1893, information about the Green Grass Monk had already been printed in published works by people like shlegel.

Not only that, but the Green Grass Monk's lodge was established on american soil before Jeung Hung Sing ever completed his training under the green grass monk.

[SimonM]

I am secure enough in myself to say I don't know who that is.

[hskwarrior]

who?:confused::confused::confused:

[SimonM]

w.p. morgan

[hskwarrior]

really? he was a freemason studying chinese freemasons

[Lama Pai Sifu]

According to our history, Jeung Hung Sing went to find the old monk who went by the name of Ching Cho. So if the green grass monk was a young warrior in the 1760's he would have definately been a old man by the 1841 came around, the very year Jeung Hung Sing began learning from him.

If the green grass monk was a young warrior, as you say, he would have been in his twenties (let's imagine) in the 1760's. He would have had to have been over 100 years old in 1841. So in other words, he'd be dead.

I don't think this information supports your research very well.

:confused::eek::rolleyes::(

[CLFLPstudent]

If the green grass monk was a young warrior, as you say, he would have been in his twenties (let's imagine) in the 1760's. He would have had to have been over 100 years old in 1841. So in other words, he'd be dead.

I don't think this information supports your research very well.

:confused::eek::rolleyes::(

Well, according to the bible Moses was 120 when he died :rolleyes:

-David

[hskwarrior]

Who said that the green grass monk was in his twenties? you did not me. Our Hung Sing history has ALWAYS stated that Ching Cho was an OLD MAN. Truthfully, it doesn't matter how old he was. What i do know is that he existed in this time and without a doubt was jeung hung sing's teacher. proof of that is found in ching cho's lodge.

[hskwarrior]

according to chan heung, HIS teacher CHOY FOOK died at 112 years old. So mike, who's research isn't supported by what now? Ching Cho didn't grow up in Shaolin, he was already a full grown man when he got there.

Why would Ching Cho have to be in his twenties? where's your evidence that says he was in his twenties? i never said that. so you must be stirring up **** again huh?

In fact one of the oldest people who ever died was chinese....something like 115 i think... but could me mistaken on the exact age.

[hskwarrior]

well mike, what do you have to say about this one?

HERE YOU GO? (http://www.wowzone.com/calment.htm)

or this one (http://www.cojoweb.com/100-years-old-and-more.html)

128 years old (http://digg.com/tech_news/_World_s_oldest_person_turns_128)

my sifu showed me a book the other day (by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming) about chi gung. In the first cople of pages there is a man named Li Ching-Yuen who reportedly lived to 250 years of age (1678 - 1928)!! He outlived 14 wives because of his use of herbs & chi gung.... His wisdom & knowledge would be so great - he would be a walking history book!

What do you think?? Dr Yang Jwing-Ming is a very respected teacher - do you believe this story? Do you think this is POSSIBLE?? With all our advances in science & medicine, why are people still dying before they even get to 100? Would you like to live to 250 years old? Is this guy just a freak of nature? Why havent the great kung fu masters lived even half this long?

I would like to see what would happen in the world during 250 years - but wouldnt like to see all of my friends and family (even my grandchildren, great grandchildren?) die before me. What would quality of life be like at 250 years old?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

First of all, I would like to ask you if you are under a doctor's care yet?

Secondly, read my post. Reading is a fundamental skill.

YOU called him a YOUNG WARRIOR. I said, let's imagine he was in his twenties.

Are you suggesting that he was younger? Was he a young warrior at 11?

Why do you have to go ape-**** the minute anyone asks you a question?

Why are you throwing Dr. Yang Jwing Ming at me? What is your malfunction?

And why throw a few pictures of old people at me? I never said people couldn't live until over 100. It is possible. It is however, HIGHLY IMPROBABLE that anyone does or did 100 years ago. It just seems to help your story out however, as your dates are veeeerrrrryyyy far apart for it to make sense.

Don't feel bad though. I have heard the same exaggerations from other lineages as well, they all seem to have 1 hundred year old guy, to help fill the gaps in their story.

Like there were millions of them back then. LOL

Even so, he would still have to be 90 or 100 BEFORE your beloved founder started his training - AS PER YOUR OWN POST! You have written that, I'm just paraphrasing.

Get some help. And I'm not even joking. You are a hot mess and you need to get a handle on yourself.

[hskwarrior]

if you don't know don't speak. plain and simple.

all you're trying to do is instigate trouble. its clear. people can see the type of person you are. i'm not going to play into your bs parella.

The first actual recording of a Hung Mun uprising is in 1787 in taiwan. How do you know what his age was at that time?

Mike, you are a plain out simple jerk. You say i explode.....do you ever listen to yourself talk? i mean LISTEN, not just hear yourself blow wind?

OK.....i don't see you disputing CHAN HEUNG's claims that CHOY FOOK was 112 years old. now do i?

so if choy fook could live to that age....why couldn't ching cho again?

so what if he would have been 90-100 years old........we DID SAY HE WAS AN OLD MAN..........and you said reading is fundamental........lmao........what happened to you then?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

And your on my Shaolin Temple Myth thread, spreading your version of your lineage again.

I love Irony.

[hskwarrior]

"Even so, he would still have to be 90 or 100 BEFORE your beloved founder started his training - AS PER YOUR OWN POST! You have written that, I'm just paraphrasing.".......

HENCE THE COMMENT OF "CHING CHO BEING AN OLD MAN IN 1841"

IF YOU'RE USING SPECTACLES TO READ THIS POST, TRY WHIPING AWAY THE STEAM.....OR GO GET ANOTHER PAIR.

[hskwarrior]

LMFAO......so what mike.......you always comment on my threads that have absolutely nothing to do with you.

so what's your problem?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

OK.....i don't see you disputing CHAN HEUNG's claims that CHOY FOOK was 112 years old. now do i?


I never said that I believe that. But you are saying that Chan Heung is claiming that. I went to Chan Heungs house and he never said anything to me about Choy Fook being 112 years old.

Where exactly do you get your information?




OH, and how old was the YOUNG WARRIOR as you called him?

LOL, I'm only quoting your own words. SO,...how old was he? Are you saying he was over 100???


Personally, I could give a rats ass about GGM and wether or not he existed. Frankly, I don't care. It doesn't change my life. I think it's funny as hell how you get so bent out of shape about it though.

I don't even think any of the other CLF people on here care either. :)

I do however realize that claiming that you have found out information that NO ONE ELSE CAN KNOW BUT YOU, makes you feel important.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

LMFAO......so what mike.......you always comment on my threads that have absolutely nothing to do with you.

so what's your problem?

I think you misread my post. Have someone else read it to you and then see if they get it. LOL


And your on my Shaolin Temple Myth thread, spreading your version of your lineage again.

I love Irony.

There, I put it in bold for you. It'll make it easier.

[hskwarrior]

of course mike......of course........

but wipe out the gunk from your eyes, and get a grip. you believe the chan family history.........that is YOUR LEGACY.....not mine.

and........where did i get my information.........how bout.......uh.............the info on the chan family? where else? i could care less about Choy Fook, he's not Ching Cho anyway?

Great, the green grass monk thanks you for not caring a rats arse.........

[hskwarrior]

Shaolin didn't establish the Triad.......fool...............Ching Cho did.

I could care less if Ching Cho came from the mountains of Humboldt county.........the fact is there is an actual existing lodge on american soil that is a product of the Green Grass Monk........and my family........beginning with the hung mun in fut san, then to USA, has been one long relationship.

I don't care what you think. simple as that. you're wrong, and everything's a myth to you. its cool. you're right. you're right about evvvvvvveeerrrrryyythhhhiiinnnnngggg.. kimo sabe.

[golgo]

well mike, what do you have to say about this one?

or this one (http://www.cojoweb.com/100-years-old-and-more.html)

my sifu showed me a book the other day (by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming) about chi gung. In the first cople of pages there is a man named Li Ching-Yuen who reportedly lived to 250 years of age (1678 - 1928)!! He outlived 14 wives because of his use of herbs & chi gung.... His wisdom & knowledge would be so great - he would be a walking history book!

What do you think?? Dr Yang Jwing-Ming is a very respected teacher - do you believe this story? Do you think this is POSSIBLE?? With all our advances in science & medicine, why are people still dying before they even get to 100? Would you like to live to 250 years old? Is this guy just a freak of nature? Why havent the great kung fu masters lived even half this long?

I would like to see what would happen in the world during 250 years - but wouldnt like to see all of my friends and family (even my grandchildren, great grandchildren?) die before me. What would quality of life be like at 250 years old?


No, I don't think that it is possible that a man lived to be 250 years old in the 17th century (although I believe it will be eventually possible).

This is a quote from one of the links you posted:

"Our current knowledge on cellular lifespan puts the natural limit on human longevity well below 150 years. Guinness Records of longevity oscillate from year to year in the range 110-125 due to miserable birth certification record from the late 19th century. Guinness Record statistics are soon likely to reveal the approximate true natural human lifespan limit."

[hskwarrior]

Oh mike.........don't worry. my bibliography will be in the book. after that, you can go and do the same research that i did if you like.

but........."it's not my fault you don't know where to look." I'm with the Hung Mun.....Ching Cho's Lodge......where do you think i get my information from?

[hskwarrior]

golgo,

do a google search for "oldest living martial artist"

[hskwarrior]

When he returned to Mount Law Fou to visit Choy Fook, Chan Heung discovered that during his absence, the monk had died at the age of 112 years (9). Chan interpreted the fact that he had not seen his master again before his death as a meaningful sign, and chose to do penitence. He took on the task of compiling all Choy Fook&#180;s teachings in a book so there would be a written document to prevent the possibility of misinterpretation and ambiguity entering into the art in later years. He called the manuscript “The Choy Lee Fut Combat Manual”(10).

When Chan Heung met Choy Fook, his master was already 96 years old.

here (http://choyleefutvzla.com/content/index.php?id=14&option=com_content&task=view)

[golgo]

golgo,

do a google search for "oldest living martial artist"

Ok. I did. It says he's 114 years old. How does that dispute what I just wrote?

[hskwarrior]

it doesn't. the thread said the man was 250.......i just posted it to show that people DO live beyond 100 years old. the lady who died at 128 yrs old rod her bike until she was 100. So golgo, it's not you. it's mike pararara who wants to dispute my research at all costs to say that HE proved me wrong.

the probs not with you.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Shaolin didn't establish the Triad.......fool...............Ching Cho did.

I could care less if Ching Cho came from the mountains of Humboldt county.........the fact is there is an actual existing lodge on american soil that is a product of the Green Grass Monk........and my family........beginning with the hung mun in fut san, then to USA, has been one long relationship.

I don't care what you think. simple as that. you're wrong, and everything's a myth to you. its cool. you're right. you're right about evvvvvvveeerrrrryyythhhhiiinnnnngggg.. kimo sabe.

Frank, I never said anything about a triad. Ever. Why bring that up? What is your point?

~ you see, this is why everyone thinks you are a quack. This has NOTHING to do with our conversation, but you say it like I have stated some kind of fact.

And aside from the fact that I don't believe that the green grass monk or choy fook was 100+ years old, I don't know why you think everyone is against you.

You adopt a position like everyone is your enemy....how do you think you will ever get anyone to listed to your point of view? By jamming it down their throats? Hardly.

Personally, I don't like you at all. It's obvious. But I don't try to supress your thoughts or start with name calling or reducing to childish behavior. THAT however, is exactly whay YOU do everytime someone has a question about what you write. Everyone has the right to their opinion and the right to express it as well. I would never try to supress anyone - I am a big believer in the freedom of speech.

I personally, don't believe any of these martial legends, er.., lineages stories 100&#37;. My styles, or anyone elses. They are stories. Granted, I believe one can find some more facts, even in today's day and age. But I think that Chinese people have a history of changing history and created stories that are more of myth and legend than truth.

You don't have to act like a dick to get your point across. Stop being a rude ******* and start having adult conversations and maybe, just maybe, someone will actually buy your book when it comes out.

Now, I'm not sure if this will sink in or not, or you will start with the crazy typing, name calling and threats. The choice is yours.

Act like an adult.

[hskwarrior]

mike, the only one not acting like an adult is YOU. there was a nice conversation going back and forth, but your silly phuken arse HAD to insert that typical MIKE PARELLA BS into it didn't you?


I think YOU are against me mike. ITS YOU who always follow ME around ALWAYS talking smack. YOU ALWAYS act like no one knows anything but YOU. ahhhh, get over yourself. See, I don't care if you don't care.....but the obvious thing is that you do because you ALWAYS have to comment on any thread i'm on.

It's YOUR RIGHT not to believe anything you want. HELL, i don't believe things about your lineage.....but i do my best to keep them to myself. I'll lose my temper and say something to get a reaction, but in most cases i keep what i think about everyone on this forum to myself.

I act like a **** cause you act like a ****. period. you want to treat someone with resepect, you WILL GET IT........act like one and you're going to get shook up like one.

ONE MORE TIME........treat someone with respect and yee shall receive respect in return......regardless if i don't like you either.

[hskwarrior]

I am a big believer in the freedom of speech.

ONLY if you're allowed to get the last word in.

[hskwarrior]

MIKE,

i only care about my research in regards to Ching Cho Wo Serng. period.

Do you really think i believe 5 guys can all have the same dream of eating sand to survive? or grass sandals turning into lifesaving rafts? There is much mysticism and mumbo jumbo within the history. All i care about was Who was Ching Cho? Where was he from? What did he do? Are there any artifacts existing that may connect to the Green Grass Monk.

Anything else in the history is by product to me. I wanted to see if CHing Cho was shaolin, and continued on from there. And, yes, today i have compiled enough information about Ching Cho to get an idea of his true identity.

but that's neither here no there.....when my book comes out, people will notice that within the CLF fraternity, I have compiled the most information on a once believed to be a myth individual. And as i keep saying, HE...the green grass monk is the founder of the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong in San Francisco, canada,philadelphia, malaysia,burma, and if the NEW YORK Ghee Kung Tong is connected to SF in any way......the Ching Cho Wo Serng is the founder of that one too.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

You do realize that you sound like a raving lunatic, right?

You make all these accusations about me, but they don't make any sense. I don't sit here and tell anyone what CLF history is all about. You keep saying that I'm a know it all and what not, but I really, for the life of me, can't see where you get your info from.

I think you have some deep-seated emotional problems, seriously. I'm not giving you a hard time, I'm not arguing with you at all. I thought the 100+ year old monk story was unrealistic, but that was it. Why you have to try to get all tough all the time is beyond me.

I think you should see someone, seriously. I know you deleted the other threads/posts - you know, the ones where you are calling DFW and CYF liars and thieves. That was a good idea on your part, to remove them that is. The funny part though is where you wanted to make it clear that it was all you and no one 'made' you do it.

Frank, no one cares.

Say your peace. But if you call these other teachers, liars and thieves, someone will come to your park and beat the snot out of you, I'm sure. Just a hunch based on some PM's that I received. I'm not saying who sent anything or who has planned on it, but I heard that if you insult their teachers again, that there will be consequences.

Just giving you a heads up.

Talk your history. Argue it and state your facts. People respect that. Talk trash and call people names and you will make more enemies by the day.

Do what you want with the info. I'm just putting it out there. Do what you will.

[hskwarrior]

shut up already........it is you that have put this thread on hold because of your pyschotic episodes. You have this wierd fasicination with me and follow me everywhere. You always have to negatively comment on any thread i am on.

You are pretty strange to me mr. strange-o.

and to your mysterious PM'ers........who say they will come to GOLDEN GATE PARK......just come prepared. I know we will be.;)

don't give me any heads up......we love surprises. i got students urging to put it down on someone.

[hskwarrior]

And mike,

Why is it you skirt the issue that you always jump on any thread to dispute, talk trash, and just do your mikey poo thing?

You act like i just come out of the blue and attack YOU for no reason.

Are you trippin? What drugs are you taking? Can i have some?

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ALWAYS TRASH TALKS and when i stand up to you and call your bluff, return the static you are putting out, you always have a hissy fit.

get over yourself.

OH and if you DON"T KNOW the history, then why do you dispute it soooo much instead of being open to alternative points of view. You ***** and complain so much that no one cares, this and that.......but yet here you are claiming that you DON'T know your history......which one is it? do you or don't you?

I thought the 100+ year old monk story was unrealistic, but that was it.

.

If you would have responded to the 100 year old monk thing as you stated above, it would have received "you are entitled to believe what you want"

Why you have to try to get all tough all the time is beyond me.....

If you weren't such a PR!CK all the time, maybe i wouldn't have to get all tough all the time.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Frank, you say I am talking trash and I dispute your history....

You must have me confused with someone else.

Please show me where I am talking trash and disputing your history.

Because I find it hard to believe that there were guys living over 100 years (when it seems convenient for a story)..is that what you mean? If not, please tell me HOW and WHEN I dispute your history? I would like to know.

You keep making accusations. All I am saying is back up what you say. Produce evidence of even half of the things you keep accusing me of, that's all.

Just because I'm not as interested in CLF history as you are, doesn't mean I haven't read all the sites and heard all the stories from everyone on here. Everyone has their versions. The problem with you is, you keep calling everyone a thief and a liar. Is this trash talking? Is this being childish?

You can decide for yourself. When I read your posts to me, if seems as if you are complaining about what YOU do on this forum.

I'm not a know-it-all, nor have I ever claimed to be.
I do not argue with you about CLF history. Never have, never will.

These are more assertions that you make.

You know, just because you write something over and over again, doesn't make it true Frank.

BTW, you should apologize to DFW and CYF for calling them liars and thieves. It was very uncool.

And what issue am I skirting? Please enlighten me. YOU are asking me questions about Chan family lineage and then asking whether or not I believe it. What ISSUE and I skirting? I'm not the one bringing it all up.

Good luck Frank, and by the way - I didn't butt into your conversation with Simon...you brought your CLF lineage argument over to my Shaolin Myth thread. Me, I could care less, but call a spade a spade.

[hskwarrior]

Thank God.

Mike, I've spoken with DFW, told him how i felt. We came to the conclusion that he will teach whatever he wants to teach his disciples. if he wanted to tell people that Choy FOOK was related to George Washington, that's his business.

So, been there done that.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Thank God.

Mike, I've spoken with DFW, told him how i felt. We came to the conclusion that he will teach whatever he wants to teach his disciples. if he wanted to tell people that Choy FOOK was related to George Washington, that's his business.

So, been there done that.

Frank, hear me out.

This is where YOU don't see YOUR arrogance and YOUR abrasive attitude.

And this the last I'll say about it, so you may have the last word if you like.

You say the "WE came to the conclusion," that he will teach whatever he wants to his disciples. How exactly are YOU involved in what he teaches? How are YOU involved in HIS decision process? Why would HE need YOU to come to any conclusion? Who exactly do you think you are?

I'll tell you;
You are an overweight, grossly out of shape loudmouth, who teachers a few people in a public park. You have learned KF for a long time but don't actually 'exercise' or 'work out' in a way that would help to get you fit. You will never be a great or even good martial artist, so you use a grade school level of education and a 5 year old computer to seek out other peoples writings and give yourself the title of 'historian'. You publicly lie and change facts to build your unique story. If you didn't try to separate yourself in this manner, you'd disappear into obscurity. Hard to believe that you could ever disappear entirely but you would. You argue and yell at everyone on the forum at one time or another.

You constantly put other down in an attempt to build yourself up. You have a need to feel accepted but don't know what to do to get. You been picked on and bullied for being a fat kid all your life. You don't really fear an ass-kicking because you have nothing - and since you know that we live in a litigious society - you would have everything to gain from any of us on the forum showing up to your park and giving you a sound thrashing.

You have created more headaches for your teachers than any other student they have ever had. You claim that CLF should be One Family (Yat Ga) but yet YOU ARE THE ONLY CLF PERSON ARGUING WITH OTHER CLF PEOPLE ON HERE. YOU FRANK, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO ARGUES WITH ANY OTHER CLF PEOPLE ON HERE. (Needed to say it twice to penetrate). This is EXACTLY who you are.


Will you have the same discussion with Master Chan Yeong Fa? Or is it that Master DFW is much more of a pacifist, so you are not worried about him beating your ass? Not to mention that you are all within the same family so someone could always bail you out if he was? Why not tell CYF this and maybe HE can come to the same conclusion that YOU and DFW came to. Maybe he will require YOUR assistance or input to help him come to a conclusion about what to teach his disciples? Maybe he should listen to you. I mean it's not like he's any closer to the source/truth than you are, right? He's only Chinese, and is a direct relative of the guy who created CLF. So, I think you are in a perfect spot to 'advise' him.

I don't know nor have I never met Master CYF before, but I get the feeling that he'd punch you right in your mouth before you ever got the full sentence out. I could be wrong, it's just a guess. But seriously, he speaks English, you should tell him that you have publicly called him a LIAR and a THIEF and give him a chance to explain himself to you. I think someone even posted his number for you to do so. Can someone post it again?

Granted, you are going to yell and scream and call me names AGAIN here, or try to act tough or cute (take your pick), but you are so arrogant and pompous when you write crap like this - or that YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE...blah blah blah (insert sentence about lineage, being a 'historian', your school, etc).

This is why no one takes you seriously. This and of course the thing about you changing dates to fit your story and then telling everyone you did it on purpose to 'smoke out' those who knew the 'real info' (as if any 'real info' became revealed as a result of your 'well-laid-out-plan' that NO ONE BELIEVES). Then you call two respected teachers, and an entire school of kung-fu (chan family clf lineage) LIARS & THIEVES. Not once, but over a dozen times. Then you remove your thread, but you fail to post an apology to ANYONE. You lash out at me - but there are 6 dozen people on here that you have offended greatly and would gladly ring your neck if they got a face-to-face with you. You disrespect your teacher, your school and your style with all this crap. Heck, you've even given a bad name to people who teach part time in a park.

As I said, this is the last I will write about this. So go ahead and take your best shot.

I apologize for making fun of you last week. It was childish and I participated in an argument which brought myself down to your level. In truth, I was having a little fun and got some enjoyment out of egging you on. You were really going nuts and it was a bit fun to watch. I'm referring to where I made fun of you 'throwing' yourself off that building and not falling by accident, in an attempt to come up with a future excuse for why your life would not turn out right in the future. I said that 'now you would have an explanation for why you fail' at Kung-Fu, teaching, getting in shape, etc.

For this I greatly and humbly apologize. I was just feeding into your behavior and allowed myself to sink down greatly to your level of conversation.

I am sorry Frank.

Additionally, I apologize for all your misunderstandings regarding all the above matters as well.

OPEN LETTER TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS (and by Letter I mean apology)

AND, I apologize to everyone on this forum. :(

Not since the fire of the internal CTS classmates feud, (which has since been extinguished and all parties are civil again - some have even kissed and made up) have I participated in a discussion where I lowered my myself to the childish antics of others, that you had witnessed last week. I made fun of another forum member. I discussed his weaknesses and exposed them for others to laugh and make judgement. I made fun of a 'mental condition' which he may or may not have. I also apologize to any and all handicapped people as well, some may think I will burn in the fiery pits of HELL for making such statements, but I assure you that I have repented and I have already asked my personal GOD for forgiveness along with Frank McCarthy himself. Now I ask you all as well.

Please forgive my indiscretions? My misgivings? I promise to try to never 'go there' again.

Sincerely,

Sifu Michael A. Parrella
(humbled before you all, and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ)

[Eddie]

Sifu Michael A. Parrella


What does the A stand for?

I read many years back, that Micheal J Fox was Actually Micheal Andrew Fox, and that somehow Micheal A Fox wouldnt sound so cool... :D

sorry not trying to make light of your very serious and mature post... :cool:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

What does the A stand for?

I read many years back, that Micheal J Fox was Actually Micheal Andrew Fox, and that somehow Micheal A Fox wouldnt sound so cool... :D

sorry not trying to make light of your very serious and mature post... :cool:

"A" is actually the fist letter in my middle name. So I did not pull a MJF on anyone, LOL.

And Eddie, I would never think that of you - you are an excellent example of a true proponent of the CLF style.

Oh, and read my post again ;)

[hskwarrior]

Mike A. Parella,

You are really really full of yourself. See, i've been through worst things in my life than a having to deal with a silly overinflated egotistical person such as MIKE A. PARELLA. Mike, you haven't "EXPOSED" anything, because you DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. How could you expose something you have no information on at all?

Mental Problems, physical problems, blah blah blah, you know nothing about my life. Why do you act like you do?

Oh, so you've had some epiphany now and realize you are wrong for attacking people mainly me they way you do. good. But, i won't accept your apology. it means nothing to me. sorry. you are not the man you portray yourself to be.

And out here, our little exchange of words is called "playing the dozens" or capping on each other. I've heard worse, and if you thought i was "GOING NUTS" think again. my girl sits here watching me and can vouch if im going crazy or just sitting back laughing while im typing to you.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I accept your apology Frank and thank you.

[hskwarrior]

AH NAH, i will apologize. If playing the dozens with you made me look bad, then I'm sorry for the spectacle that people had to see. but, when people attack me, cap on me, insult me, and stuff like that.

I am WRONG for stooping to the levels of those insulting me. for that I am sorry to the whole forum for having to hear two grown people talking trash to each other that are on opposite sides of the contintent.

[SimonM]

really? he was a freemason studying chinese freemasons

Having seen the level of work put forward by freemasons studying freemasonic history in the past I'll have to say that I will remain open to possibility but skeptical of claims put forward in that context.

[bawang]

me yuo be frands plz??
fraaaaaaaaaaaaand
kiss kiss hug hug

BACK OT TOPIC

hi, about the shaolin connection, although technique and fighting style i see betweeen north and south are different, their training methods(physical excercise,weights, hard/soft qigong) people showed me are exactly the same. i mean it. exactly the same. so i think there must be an old connection to shaolin, because i see the chan finger and indian style excercises(hindu pushup, hopping centipede, yoga stretching, hindu squats, even some magic seals)

[hskwarrior]

nah i will accept your apology. a person who is really sorry, won't do things to be sorry about again. i'll wait and see.

[SimonM]

my sifu showed me a book the other day (by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming) about chi gung. In the first cople of pages there is a man named Li Ching-Yuen who reportedly lived to 250 years of age (1678 - 1928)!! He outlived 14 wives because of his use of herbs & chi gung.... His wisdom & knowledge would be so great - he would be a walking history book!



Don't trust everything you read.

[hskwarrior]

um, simon.....i agree with you on that.

I don't believe half of the mumbo jumbo about the triad history. I just wanted to know who ching cho was, and anything about him. the rest is.....well it just is.

For people wondering, the triad and shaolin go hand in hand in regards to history of shaolin. that is why i mention the triad.

[hskwarrior]

my sifu showed me a book the other day (by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming) about chi gung. In the first cople of pages there is a man named Li Ching-Yuen who reportedly lived to 250 years of age (1678 - 1928)!! He outlived 14 wives because of his use of herbs & chi gung.... His wisdom & knowledge would be so great - he would be a walking history book!

this is not me talkin about my sifu. this is from a previous post on another site it seems........it wasn't from me or my sifu. I just posted it to show that people DO live to over 100 in some cases. just that it wasn't totally IMPOSSIBLE enough to debate.

[SimonM]

Hskwarrior I don't feel strongly about you one way or the other and have absolutely no vested interest in your dispute over CLF history. So please take this as friendly advice and not as a personal attack as it is intended as the former, not the latter. If I offend you with what I am about to say I do appologize.

Having followed this debate for some time I am forming an opinion that much of the documentation you are relying on appears to be secondary sources of potentially dubious origin. Certainly a novel set during the time period, as I discussed previously, does not represent even that but would be considered, at best, a tertiary source.

Paraphenalia dating back to some 100 years after the events in question and found on a different continent may certainly provide a snap-shot of what that organization BELIEVED at that time in their history. It does not, however, provide any strong indication of actual conditions a century previous. If you want to verify a claim that the founder of your branch was directly educated by a legendary personage of significantly advanced age you should be concentrating on verifiable, preferrably third-party documents, demonstrating that the venerable individual in question was, in fact, alive between the years necessary.

I say third party because documents such as "The Hiram Key" (Knight, C and R Lomas) demonstrate the dangers of the usage of both dubious sources (Steven Knight for example) and the dangers of the usage of second-party documentation as evidentiary.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

my sifu showed me a book the other day (by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming) about chi gung. In the first cople of pages there is a man named Li Ching-Yuen who reportedly lived to 250 years of age (1678 - 1928)!! He outlived 14 wives because of his use of herbs & chi gung.... His wisdom & knowledge would be so great - he would be a walking history book!

this is not me talkin about my sifu. this is from a previous post on another site it seems........it wasn't from me or my sifu. I just posted it to show that people DO live to over 100 in some cases. just that it wasn't totally IMPOSSIBLE enough to debate.

But Frank, I don't think anyone was disputing that there are people who live to be over 100. And it's always some monk in the mountains where there is just here-say and never a written record. Its just that I have heard of at least two other people in various lineages where the guy was 100+ years old. I never said it was impossible, I just believe it's highly improbable. I think the ages are stretched for a variety of reasons i.e., gain credibility, fill in holes in lineage that the person doesn't know the answer to, make it appear that someone is closer in generations to a founder, etc.

[hskwarrior]

Simon,

I completely understand where you are coming and thank you for your words.

However, certain writers out that have been credited as having the most complete and accurate information on certain subjects that i have been researching. Dubious? I doubt that. however, the founder of our system laid claim to learning from a certain individual, however, within the realm of CLF, not much was known about him.

I took the name of this individual and went on my search. I've found the ONLY texts in english that make any reference to the Green Grass Monk, not for what he taught to the founder of my system, and i searched outside of CLF to do so.

In my research, i've come to find that the Tong we belong to in SF, happens to be founded by our founders teacher. however, i'm not trying to debate anyone here on this because i haven't presented my findings. that will be in my book. The sources i've used are trusted and respected as being the most accurate and complete on the subject.

[hskwarrior]

mike, you disputed that fact that Ching Cho could have lived that long. We DID say that the green grass monk was an old man, how old no one ever knew.

But it was you who said my research wasn't being supported because of this age thing. right?

[SimonM]

The sources i've used are trusted and respected as being the most accurate and complete on the subject.


I'd be most obliged if you could furnish a copy of your bibliography when it is compiled.

[hskwarrior]

forgive me mike. the green grass monk wasn't a monk like the other monks. he was part of shaolin that dealt with the secret societies. the thing that people in clf get wrong is that they look at Ching Cho from the perspective of being a shaolin monk. That was just where he started, but there is evidence to who he was, what he did, where he's been, who he founded his lodge with and so forth.

the key is knowing WHERE to look.

Mike i understand where you are coming from. however, i am someone who wants to know the TRUTH. not what he said or she said. Still, based on my reseach, i am even more convinced than before about how Jeung Hung Sing got the Hung Sing in his name. And evenmore, it was my own deduction at first that because the current "hung" used by all hung sing disciple's is sometime referred to in english is the "WILD GOOSE" and to the Chinese people the goose represents "LONGEVITY".......not only that but the same three tiks on the left side of the character represents "heaven, earth, and man"

Yet, during my research I've come to find out that "Longevity" and "the flourishing league (hung) is victorious" are things connected to Ching Cho. So, my only point is this, there IS information on the green grass monk out there, you just have to look.

[hskwarrior]

Simon,

Once my book is finally complete, there will be a bibliography of all of my resources. When people go and do their own research, they WILL say, "well, it is right there in print, and has NOTHING to do with CLF at all"

They will say "this IS the only writing in regards to Ching Cho that i've come across"

But then again, you DID say, you've never heard of W.P. Morgan.

[lkfmdc]

Honestly, this is just a mess now, and too bad because there is some good stuff buried in here.

NOt to get mired in this swamp, but I MUST mention the fact that Yang Jwing Ming's "sources" in the past included a TV soap opera that ran in Taiwan... ie take whatever you read in his books with a grain of salt

[hskwarrior]

thanks ross, but i only found that Jwang jing ming whatever stuff when mike began his attack on the old monk thing. i did a quick search, and just posted it up. i don't actually know anything about that man in the least.

pls, don't think i brought that in for any other reasons other than the moment of how old people can live. nothing to do with martial arts at all.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

thanks ross, but i only found that Jwang jing ming whatever stuff when mike began his attack on the old monk thing. i did a quick search, and just posted it up. i don't actually know anything about that man in the least.

pls, don't think i brought that in for any other reasons other than the moment of how old people can live. nothing to do with martial arts at all.

Frank, I don't think me questioning how old the guy was can be considered an 'attack', do you? This is where you are blowing things out of proportion. I am 'questioning', not 'attacking'. There is a big difference.


I'm curious to see how you connect JHS with the GGM. I look forward to seeing your evidence.

[hskwarrior]

mike, it's not about the questioning, its how you go about it.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

But Frank, I do have a couple of questions for you;

YOU called the GGM a Young Warrior in the 1760's, correct?
How young was he as a warrior?

And you said that Jeung Hung Sing began learning from him in 1841, correct?
How old was he at this time?

What is the evidence that Jeung Hung Sing learned from the Green Grass Monk?
What is your finding?

I love the mess that we call Chinese History. The outcome never changes my life. Chan Heung and Jeung Hung Sing could have studied with Spider-Man for all I care. I have no vested interest in the outcome. Curious though when people make 'claims' and present 'evidence'.

So nothing personal with this post Frank. And I've explained here, that I don't care if he existed/not existed - taught the Lambada (it was the forbidden dance though) or whatever. But since there is so much ruckus, I'd love to hear the facts.

[hskwarrior]

Mike,

about the character of Ching Cho..........i can tell you what previous reseachers have discovered.

1) his shaolin temple name
2)his triad name
3)the name of his lodge
4)who he went with when he founded his lodges and where
5) Ching Cho recruited to so-called famous pirate chiefs to aid him
6)how ching cho got the name of CHING CHO
7) what was printed on "Ching Cho's" flags
8) and even some old relics, seals, and things like that

So far, that is a lot of info on someone who was once considered to be nothing more than a myth. These things are also found with the Hung Society.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

mike, it's not about the questioning, its how you go about it.

How I go about it? Uh, I say I think it's a far stretch that the guy was 100. You said he was a young warrior in 1761. I asked how young would that be? 20's perhaps?

You went ballistic and said :


Who said that the green grass monk was in his twenties? you did not me. Our Hung Sing history has ALWAYS stated that Ching Cho was an OLD MAN. Truthfully, it doesn't matter how old he was. What i do know is that he existed in this time and without a doubt was jeung hung sing's teacher. proof of that is found in ching cho's lodge.


Why would Ching Cho have to be in his twenties? where's your evidence that says he was in his twenties? i never said that. so you must be stirring up **** again huh?

I just said I find it hard to believe that the guy was over 100. Not to mention that Jeung Hung Sing would have begun learning form the guy at a 100. 100 year old people can barely walk. I'm giving an opinion here. It's too bad if it hurts your story. I'm just calling it like I see it. The story seems thin, that's all.

Personally, I'd love for all your history to be true. I think you would have nothing left to argue with people about though. :(

[Lama Pai Sifu]

By the way, I know you apologized to me as I did for your misunderstandings as well, but have you issued a public apology to DFW and CYF as of yet? I keep getting PM'd about it, that's all.

I think it would be a good idea Frank. But you are a grown man. You don't need to take my advice.

I still think it would be good for CLF in general and might make those groups NOT boycott your book publicly.

Just a thought.

[hskwarrior]

mike, what i care about most is that CHING CHO was an old man when Jeung Hung Sing came to him. NO, NO ONE KNOWS how old Ching Cho was. People don't even know the true birthdates to many famous figures in china. Including that of chan heung.

IF our history claimed that Ching Cho was in his prime, then, i'd take a different approach.

Jeung Hung Sing was 17 when he trained under Ching Cho.

[hskwarrior]

I don't need to publicly apologize to DFW, i've done that directly to him. that's what matters most. if i did this here on the forum, it would already be OLD NEWS to him.

But, I do have a question. why should i apologize for identifying an act? EVERYONE knows that the CHAN FAMILY always denied to existance of CHING CHO. NOW, everywhere you look, CHOY FOOK is NOW ching cho? even his own people contacted me to find out where all this was coming from.

Ching Cho was always Jeung Hung Sing's teacher. In my posts i recently deleted, i was directing my attention to extrajoseph. He now claims that CHOY FOOK is CHING CHO, so i posed his original rants and raves on how the green grass monk was a "fabrication" a "lie" "an attempt to" blah blah blah....

So, after DFW printing in his book his reasons why the green grass monk was just a myth, to now he personally claims that he suddenly discovered Ching Cho was Choy Fook....what would you expect disciples of the FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON to say or think?

So thanks to that, there will now be TWO CHING CHO's, Jeung Hung Sing's and Chan Heung's......isn't that just dandy?

[hskwarrior]

now come now mike.....

according to chan family archives, chan heung started learning from CHOY FOOK at 96 years old. So why dispute CHING CHO and NOT dispute CHOY FOOK?

[SimonM]

Simon,

Once my book is finally complete, there will be a bibliography of all of my resources. When people go and do their own research, they WILL say, "well, it is right there in print, and has NOTHING to do with CLF at all"

They will say "this IS the only writing in regards to Ching Cho that i've come across"

But then again, you DID say, you've never heard of W.P. Morgan.

What I'm asking is for you to make your bibliography available to people regardless of if they buy the book.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

now come now mike.....

according to chan family archives, chan heung started learning from CHOY FOOK at 96 years old. So why dispute CHING CHO and NOT dispute CHOY FOOK?

Dispute? I'm not here to dispute anything. If you want to ask me wether or not I BELIEVE that these guys were 96-100+, I will say NO, SIR!

The problem is, the Chan Family says when Chan Heung was born, and you are telling them they are wrong. I just find it difficult to believe your stories when you just slam the Chan Family and call them liars and thieves. How would YOU know his birthday? I think they might have a better handle on it.

I can see you are very excited and passionate about your research, and that's a good thing. But public name calling serves no one.

You should admit your wrongdoing and make amends.

[SimonM]

taught the Lambada (it was the forbidden dance though)

Wasn't that the horizontal mambo, not the lambada?

[lkfmdc]

I hate to interject calmness and logic into a flame war, oh really I do :rolleyes:

In a culture that venerates age, age is frequently manipulated. Anyone Chinese or who has spent time with Chinese knows that older people often have important birthdays like "60". "65" and "80" YEARS BEFORE THEY TURN THAT AGE! Ie, age often gets "rounded up"

My 1st wife's grandmother threw a banquet for her 80th birthday when she was 73, I shiite you not

Claiming the "monk" (how frequently we learn they were not monks!) you learned from was "really old" was yet another mechanism to establish credibility and respect

[hskwarrior]

disputing the FUT SAN hung sing kwoon history would mean that you would also have to dispute the CHAN FAMILY history. you said it yourself indirectly. you do not believe that CHOY FOOK lived to be 112 nor did chan heung learn from him when the old monk was 96 years old.

so i have a question for you......you don't dispute that Choy Fook was chan heung's teacher.....but if you dispute the age of Choy fook, then did chan heung really learn from him then?

If you believe in CHOY FOOK, then how do you explain that only HE in the history of CLF can live to the age of 112 years old?

Oh, Chan family also claimed that Jeung Hung Sing came into the CLF picture around 1867.....but it's been proven that he established his school opened in 1851. There are websites out there including CHAN FAMILY INFORMATION sites that speak to chan heung being born in 1815. How do you explain a history site on chan heung alone and it says he was so and so age in 1854? When you subract the age from the year you get 1815 and not 1805. IF i did not originate that line of thought, then how am i wrong? I just wanted to know why there were two birth years for one man? My question is this, do they have an actual birth certificate? i would love to see one of him, i'd like to find out. Has anyone seen the governments record of chan heung's birth?

[hskwarrior]

So, after DFW printing in his book his reasons why the green grass monk was just a myth, to now he personally claims that he suddenly discovered Ching Cho was Choy Fook....what would you expect disciples of the FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON to say or think?

I think they might have a better handle on it.

But why can't you allow my lineage the same courtesy about our own?


ok....ok....i could be wrong for openly calling them thieves and liars on a public forum for that i apologize, but that still doesn't negate the fact that Jeung Hung Sing's teacher has been taken away from him to be the alias of CHOY FOOK.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

So, after DFW printing in his book his reasons why the green grass monk was just a myth, to now he personally claims that he suddenly discovered Ching Cho was Choy Fook....what would you expect disciples of the FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON to say or think?

I think they might have a better handle on it.

But why can't you allow my lineage the same courtesy about our own?


ok....ok....i could be wrong for openly calling them thieves and liars on a public forum for that i apologize, but that still doesn't negate the fact that Jeung Hung Sing's teacher has been taken away from him to be the alias of CHOY FOOK.

Was that an apology? I don't even think it was an admission of guilt!

Frank, back in the 1980's, we wrote stuff about the Lama style, based on our current knowledge and the information available to us at the time. 20+ years later, we have learned that we have made many mistakes. Check this out...

Even today, people argue with us about the history that WE wrote and brought into light - they try to QUOTE OUR OLD WRITINGS and say "NO, NO, NO - you see here? It was written 20 years ago! You are wrong!"

The problem is, that all of our writings (David Ross did the writing) has been copied and pasted so many times, that people don't even recognize the sources anymore. People argue with us about our own stuff!

Are you getting my point here.

The reality of it is, NO ONE CAN PROVE ANY OF THIS STUFF ANYMORE. Yes, you can gather information, yes you can come to reasonable (let me emphasize REASONALBE) conclusions and try to piece together the story. But in the end, it's still a STORY!

Did these guys live to 100+? I doubt it.
Are the Chinese known for changing history? Most certainly.
Will we ever know the real and exact truths? Doubtful.

It's cool that you are researching so much, don't take it so personal. No matter who came first or who learned from whom, or what year it was or how old everyone is. You will never ever really know for sure and in the end, it's your KF and your training that matter most.

[hskwarrior]

Now, if you would have spoken to me like this in the past, we would never have been where we are today.

I completely agree with you on most things. I agree on this, history is a biatch. Probably will always be.

But in the quest to document our history beyond what was already passed down, i've finally found what i was looking for.

the Green Grass Monk.......from what i've come to learn......ISN'T something concocted by Choy Lee Fut people. at all.

"The reality of it is, NO ONE CAN PROVE ANY OF THIS STUFF ANYMORE. Yes, you can gather information, yes you can come to reasonable (let me emphasize REASONALBE) conclusions and try to piece together the story. But in the end, it's still a STORY! "

Right, just like other people who have theirs, WE have ours. I know its just a story, but the story is DEEP. And just like people who believe in jesus, or the air that we breath. We can't see it or touch it, but we know it's there.

[hskwarrior]

So, mike, because of your own efforts in researching Chan Tai San and the Clear or green cloud temple, because you found the temple, you know its real right?

so, like i said earlier, i know that Ching Cho founded the Ghee Kung Tong in SF.....that means alot to me like the Clear Temple means to you.

see what i mean?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

So, mike, because of your own efforts in researching Chan Tai San and the Clear or green cloud temple, because you found the temple, you know its real right?

so, like i said earlier, i know that Ching Cho founded the Ghee Kung Tong in SF.....that means alot to me like the Clear Temple means to you.

see what i mean?

It's not really the same thing. We didn't think there wasn't a temple. We even knew where it was. Many people know about it, especially if you live in Toi San.

The problem we had is where we misread a chinese character many years ago. Since many of us had gone our own ways before the time that we discovered the error, there were people that didn't know about it. We proved it and it was done. Going to the temple had nothing to do with the whole Green/Clear name thing. That was just a mistake. The characters are almost identical.

The CLF (insert any style here) is problematic because just as we did over 20 years ago, several people got their stories in print. Those stories stick, as you very well know. All you can do it research on your own and tell others of your findings. You can't shove it down their throats or call them liars or thieves though. Your story is your story. Piece yours together as best and as logically (with the best facts you can get) as you can. But in the end, you can't tell anyone what is really the truth, because you, along with everyone else, will never ever really know for sure.

You will get respect when you show everyone the hard work you've done. You will have raving fans. You will get snubbed, sneered at and gain lots of haters if you keep telling everyone else how 'wrong' they are. Just share. It's all you can really do.

And seriously, if you listened to me from the beginning, you would see where I have been coming from the whole time. Problem was, you took Gus's side while we were arguing and made me your enemy. Gus and I are friendly again and you are still acting like you are my enemy.

[TenTigers]

Claiming the "monk" (how frequently we learn they were not monks!) you learned from was "really old" was yet another mechanism to establish credibility and respect

well, he clearly wasn't trying to bang younger women...

as for me, I'll stick with my Grecian Formula and tummy control Underoos.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

so, like i said earlier, i know that Ching Cho founded the Ghee Kung Tong in SF.....that means alot to me like the Clear Temple means to you.

see what i mean?

It's not that Frank. The challenge here is, especially when researching history and presenting your findings - you don't actually KNOW that for a fact. You may have a lot of evidence that points to the idea that Ching Cho founded the GKT, but unless you saw him do it, unless you have photographic/video evidence, unless you have eyewitness, unless you have documents that can be proven to be written in the 1700's (and even that is not conclusive) - you can only speculate. Now it may be probable, but you can't prove it conclusively.

That is the challenge. You have to view this all from a very scientific mindset, not a "oh I read this from this author, and several people quote this information as well" mindset. That mindset is not scientific and doesn't mean squat.

Example: A book written an author in the 1970's on Hop Ga/Lama - is mostly wrong. Like almost everything in the whole book is wrong.

Problem with society is "people believe what they read". People have arguments about facts that they'll kill each other over - meanwhile, their source is from a magazine article. Go figure.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

well, he clearly wasn't trying to bang younger women...

as for me, I'll stick with my Grecian Formula and tummy control underoos.

Are you suggesting that is was a plot to 'bang' Older women??

[hskwarrior]

mike lets be real.

I was NEVER your enemy. If you were my enemy, you'd know it.

we could go on for days giving excuses. Either we can bury the hatchet or continue this rediculous bickering back and forth. Look, i may not like you, but i don't hate you. Hate is such a useless energy.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

mike lets be real.

I was NEVER your enemy. If you were my enemy, you'd know it.


I should probably just glance over this, but...

How exactly would I know it?

[TenTigers]

yep. First he would get'em ripped on Green Grass, to loosen their inhibitions (as well as their britches) then he would impress them with his wisdom, and when the moment was ripe...he would strike!
"Hey bebe, ya wanna come back to my temple for some exchanging of ch'i and jing? I have this little jade vibrating egg that will rock your world!"

[David Jamieson]

I should probably just glance over this, but...

How exactly would I know it?

You'd have to go to the wedding of him and your mom? :p


...what? what?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Rik, you are so incredulous! Chinese women did not have britches, nor did they have pantaloons (in case you were wondering). You should really research your history more.

It's inexperienced guys like you that give 'garb' of all sorts a bad name. Do you research and then get back to us. Where is your proof? We they wearing this garments a 100 years ago? Hmmmm

I find your findings both shallow and pedantic. (Peter Griffin Rocks!)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

You'd have to go to the wedding of him and your mom? :p


...what? what?

My Mom is dead. What do you mean?

[hskwarrior]

i know what you mean mike. really i do.

but some of my research sources go back as far as 1866. But, yes all evidence points to what i'm claiming. Part of me believes in it strongly because by the time one of the books were published in then (1866) research on the Green Grass Monk was in there. some of it are reprints from works 1811-1925.

But the reason i keep searching is so that i can create a bibliography which shows all my resources. I don't include questionable things like the novel i was asking about. The information from these past authors were based on actual interviews with Triad Members, confiscated documentation, police records, and confessions. This is the closest we are going to get in knowin the Green Grass Monk, IMO.

[hskwarrior]

mike,

Trust me you'd know. Can we leave it at that?

I offered the olive branch, you gonna take it, or are we gonna keep up the drama?

[hskwarrior]

um, i'm NOT getting married, not to his MOM, nor anyone else for that matter. :p

Marriage is a CURSE i wouldn't wish on any enemy :D not even mike :p

[David Jamieson]

My Mom is dead. What do you mean?

sorry to read that man.

dang, that would've been a good zing too.

[hskwarrior]

TT,

Ching Cho is the best. ;)

[TenTigers]

Rik, you are so incredulous! Chinese women did not have britches, nor did they have pantaloons (in case you were wondering). You should really research your history more.

It's inexperienced guys like you that give 'garb' of all sorts a bad name. Do you research and then get back to us. Where is your proof? We they wearing this garments a 100 years ago? Hmmmm

I find your findings both shallow and pedantic. (Peter Griffin Rocks!)

Are you calling me stupid?
DON'T CALL ME STUPID!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCZ8-ZAT88&feature=related

[uki]

Are you calling me stupid?
DON'T CALL ME STUPID!!!hey stupid. :D

[David Jamieson]

Jamie lee was soooo hot back in the day.

[taai gihk yahn]

Are you calling me stupid?
DON'T CALL ME STUPID!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCZ8-ZAT88&feature=related


Jamie lee was soooo hot back in the day.

don't touch his di(k!

[SimonM]

or the air that we breath. We can't see it or touch it, but we know it's there.

Actually... air we can most certainly experience directly. No belief is necessary.

[hskwarrior]

the same can be said about the HOLY SPIRIT right?;)

[David Jamieson]

no.

holy spirit is a concept.

air is a tangible thing. move your hand through it and you feel it.
try stop taking it in and see what happens.

the same can not be said for the catholic trinity concept which requires belief.

actual air doesn't depend on belief. it is there, we experience it directly as has been said.

[hskwarrior]

air is a tangible thing. move your hand through it and you feel it.

This is where i have to disagree brother. and here's why.

After my spinal cord injury i had two stainless steel rods screwed into my spine to support it. Of course, falling 50 feet, breaking my back in 3 places, fractured ankle and so forth.....i became RELIGIOUS at one point.

Let me preface this......You always see people fall down when the preacher places his hands on foreheads. Well, that happened to me once, and the preacher told me to fall down. Confused because i didn't feel anything, i ask him why?

Now, in the church i Was attending at the time of my accident, i gave myself up to be born again. and I SH!T YOU NOT, this warm-beautifully warm feeling starting in the center of my back, fist small then grew larger until it took me over completely. My eyes were closed shut, hands clinched, body shaking like crazy. when it all died down, it was so significant to me that i thought maybe GOD made the steel bars disappear. But no. It didn't happen.

However, a voice inside me, NOT MY HEAD, but my soul kept telling me to get xrays taken. So i did. and, while walking with my xrays back to my doctor i looked at them. I noticed these black lines going across the steel bars but couldn't figure out what they were. So i went back to school where the hospital sent an ambulance to pick me back up because they said the two steel bars in my back turned into 4 pieces and i was in jeopardy of reparalyzing myself.

So, shortly after that, because the two bars turned into four, i had to have them taken out.

Now, when my doctors asked me what i did to make the bars break within my own body........i said "GOD DID IT"

[David Jamieson]

well, you can interpret what happened how you like. It doesn't take away from the fact that air has mass.

I'm not 100% certain how your story of your experience relates to that fact.

However, in context to your story of being born again, the buddhist teaching is that "mind is everything and everything is mind".

You can attribute to god, but that doesn't scratch out the physical reality possibilities of metal fatigue from the healing process. If you prefer to think that god did it, that's cool, but it can't be substantiated.

Regarding air, you can still feel it directly, when you move through it, when the wind blows, as you hear things as that is what is happening, vibrations are moving through the air.

air is a substance, it has mass, it is definitely something and not void.

[SimonM]

the same can be said about the HOLY SPIRIT right?;)

No. The holy spirit can not be directly experienced without a kierkegaardian leap of faith.

But then...

You knew I'd say that. ;)

I'll try not to insult your beliefs by commenting further unless you want me to explain precisely what I mean.

[hskwarrior]

lol.......what was it that i experienced then? an orgasm that went bad? lol

I don't believe in religion anyway....lol......i just KNOW what happened to me........
(organized religion is NOT for me)

and simon, yes, i knew you'd say that. :p