Introductions please?

[theghola]

After reading several threads, I've noticed one thing: I have no idea who each of you are. =P Granted, I know that most of you are regulars and have, over time, gotten to know each other and who you "really" are (in terms of real-world identity). Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of meeting each of you and/or learning about who you all are. I would greatly appreciate it if you might introduce yourself so I could get to know each of you better as individuals. Now, it would be a bit rude of me to ask for your information without providing some of my own, so here it goes: I am 18 years old. My first name is Jeremy. Most of my friends call me "Jerm." Yes, you can call me that too. =) I live in the SF Bay Area of California. I am currently a (very, very low-ranked) student of Sifu Paul Eng. Before getting the chance to learn from Sifu Eng, I was a practicioner of what is widely called "modern" or "compulsory" wushu, which was fun, but didn't have the depth that I was looking for (particularly in terms of pugilism). Hmmm...what else... I like steak. And potatoes. No, I don't have a girlfriend, and no, I'm not currently looking for one. ;-) I'm a big Jet Li fan... Oh yeah, one more thing; I'm really "uneducated" when it comes to things like lineage and the kungfu family-tree, so I might ask some very rudimentary questions (i.e. "who is so-in-so?"). Please bear with me. =P Anyway, I'm very excited to learn more, and hope that through the discussions on this board I can gain some further insight into the martial arts, particularly Praying Mantis 'kungfu'. Take Care of yourselves and those around you!

[theghola]

One thing I'm really happy about - I just recently finished learning Steals the Peach!

[Robinf]

Nice to meet you.

I've been on this board for more than a year now--my identity was lost during a server meltdown, so I had to reregister this year.

I've been studying Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo/World Taekwondo Federation for 6 1/2 years, and I've been studying Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu for more than 2 1/2 years. I'm also an Instructor in Taekwondo and I assist in teaching in Kung Fu (as I am an "older sister").

The Kung Fu I study is from the Wah Lum lineage. My sifu studied under and is certified from (Grand?) Master Chan Pui, who studied under Lee Kwan Shan, the founder of our particular style (Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis). The website for my school (which I created, wrote, and maintain) is in my profile.

Glad to have you on board.

-------------------------------

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Terry]

I think that it would be much easier if everyone would just update their personal profiles with the type of info that Jerm is looking for. Only you can edit your profile, but everyone has read only access to it. This way we do not have to constantly refer back to this thread to see what somebody's background is. Don't forget, we are on the honor system so whatever martial arts background you give in your profile is assumed true, unless your postings would indicate otherwise. For example, check out mine so that you know where I'm coming from. Just click on the little index card below (lower right corner of this message).

[7kicks]

That's funny Robin in an earlier post you said you train in Peabody? I don't see a wah lum instructor from Peabody listed on the wah lum site. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[theghola]

...for the info, Terry. Unfortunately, one can't get much personal information from a simple Profile. Anyway, thanks again for the help. =)

[Robinf]

7kicks,
Read Mr. McCorry's profile under instructors.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Terry]

Theghola - did you see my message regarding this matter in the "Kung Fu Forum" discussion group?. Under the line "about Theghola" in your personal profile you can indicate the same pertinent info that you have in your postings.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

7kicks,
Robinf's Sifu is not authorized to teach Wah Lum. Wah Lum Sifu's have to recertify every 3 years (or less depending on how they tested). By now his certificate is invalid. Go to http://www.wahlum.com/schools.htm for a list of Certified Wah Lum Instructors. There are a few unlisted Sifu's operating clubs instead of established schools but I'll get them on the list soon.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

What the heck is this about? Are you actually trying to say that the Kung Fu you learn has an expiration date? I can understand the desire of Chan Poi et all to maintain control of the organization and money making aspects of the Wah Lum Temple, but it's silly to think that once someone has learned something and has a developed ability, that it will just cease to have function or usage after a set expiration period. If this McCory fellow keeps practicing what he learned, and recieved a certified level of ability, then there is nothing the Wah Lum organization can do or say that will take that away from him. It's his now. Saying he doesn't know Wah Lum doesn't just "make it so". That't just plain silly.

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com

[NorthernMantis]

Master Chan does and will do what he wants with the system.Silly or not he is the gm of it and tradition is students do what the sifu orders them to.This is where the conflict is.Americans see no need for authority or tradition, wich in many other cultures it is the opposite and it is very well regarded and respected.This nation does not like being told what to do and it is founded on that basis,people govern themselves.

It is this type of disrespect that makes me wish that kung fu should have remained secret wether it would have died out or not.Sadly it is otherwise.For the rest of the wah lum people please discontinue this type of disscusion.It already ended a while ago and was ordered to stay that way.

My one time that I comeback and I compulsively post.sheesh /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I need more control.

[ShaolinMantis]

I must have miss something major!!!
This started out as a request for introductions, yet ended up as some type of put down about The Wah Lum clan...
where did I lose the thread? That seems to happen on some other threads as well. Hmmm must be my software...

[theghola]

I didn't even see it coming. One minute we're talking about looking at Profiles, and the next we're talking about how Grandmaster Chan Pui is "stupid" for having his Sifus take a test every three years (?). Oh well... I just hope that not all the threads that I start end up bad-mouthing grandmasters. ;-)

In reference to Sandman2: I going to agree with NorthernMantis on this one. Chan Pui is the grandmaster of his system, and I believe that it is to his discretion who should be "official" sifus of that system and what requirements they need to meet in order to keep/maintain that status. After all, they will claim to be from his lineage, right? If they are going to be using his name, then he should rightfully have a say according to their position in his system. If, in order to be sifu, one must take a test every three years, then so be it. And you know, this may not be such a bad thing. By doing this, Grandmaster Chan Pui is trying to maintain the quality of his style and of his students. Also, he is ensuring that his students cannot abuse his name or the name of his system. It forces something of a committment not only to him, but to the entire kungfu family as well. I personally see no problem with the way he runs things. Hey, once you become a sifu, you can run things the way you want within your own style/lineage. Until then, I wouldn't recommend putting down a sifu for the way he runs his kwoon

[Papieboni]

If some one studied Wah Lum, 7 Star, Butterfly Goose Feet or Chittlins and were once certified, and then left to do their own thing because whatever political reasons and continued to teach what they learned you cant say its not Wah Lum, 7 Star, Butterfly Goose Feet or Chittlins. You can change the name and call it Hot sauce and Chittlins but ist still Chittlins. If I am performing 18 elbows and decide to call it form # 3 to escape entanglements in court, its still 18 elbows.

You cant persecute someone that was a former instructor, was certified and a member of a family and left and then say they are not authentic or not real, its kind of hard when they have certificates, pictures, videos of Wah Lum anniversaries and such. They were real enough when they were part of the system ad helping to proprogate it right? and paying their fees and dues! they have justdecided to go a seperate way.
Whats wrong with a system when you take students make them part of a program and a instructor and when they choose a different road you disown them?

I understand upholding the quality of kung fu, but being nasty and ill willed is something else.
That is the prolem with all of these instructor and professional student programs. It doesn't really promote a true teacher/student relationship in my opinion, its a business transaction.

I learned WAH LUM from a former WAH LUM instructor who left the temple for his own reasons, he was afraid of prosecution and ill feelings so he changed the name and movements of some of the sets and called what he learned something different, he has tested in a while i am sure, Is it not Wah lum now because he is not under the Wah Lum umbrella? Sure it is. second form is Second form no matter what u call it.

This kind of stuff is so TIRED!

[Robinf]

Since this is introductions, would everyone please just call me Robin. That's my name, the f is the first initial of my last name, and I had to use that because my initial joining of this board more than a year ago, my identity got locked up in a server meltdown and I had to rejoin as Robinf, as it said that Robin was already taken (even though I couldn't access that name). I go by simply Robin. It's just awkward to see me referred to as something else, unless we get another Robin on the board.

Thanks.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Please read and digest before jumping to conclusions. What I said was "Robinf's Sifu is not authorized to teach Wah Lum." I did not say his ability or knowledge or past expired. He might be very good. I don't know, I've never met him. What I do know is that's he's using the Wah Lum name without authorization from Master Chan and his certificate to teach Wah Lum is no longer valid. He may even still have a good relationship with Master Chan. I don't know. But I do think that potential students should know that he is no longer affiliated with Master Chan or the Temple.

NorthernMantis
I agree with most of your post but what 'type of discussion' are you referring to? The list of certified schools and instructors is public knowledge and promoted that way. Why do you think we have a large ad in the trade magazines listing the certified schools. Master Chan WANTS this information known.

ShaolinMantis
Discussions end up like this because people jump to conclusions and fire off rapid replies without digesting what they read. I believe some have personal agendas and beliefs that come out in their replies no matter what the original post was about.

KickingMantis
First off tell your Sifu hello. He's a good guy and great martial artist. Now think about this. I was once a member of a Kenpo federation and had a registration card and paid dues. Since leaving my rank is no longer recognized by them. I also belonged to the Combat Martial Arts Association when I studied Tae Kwon Do. That has also expired and my rank is no longer recognized. When I leave the company I work for should I continue to give out business cards saying I'm a network engineer for so-and-so? See the difference? They are no longer certified or recognized as Wah Lum Sifus. And I don't believe anyone is trying to persecute any of them. And personally I think your Sifu did the right thing. He built on his knowledge and experience rather than ride the coattails of someone else's success. It seems to be working out fine for him.

To all
Recertification is an excellent way to keep Instructors from getting sloppy, out of shape, and forgetting thier material. You can be assured that if you join an authorized Wah Lum school you're getting a top notch instructor who knows the material.

You can all jump on me now.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

All of you, take a good hard look at my post. There's no defamation, put downs, attacks, or anything else in it. The word "stupid" is never used once. There are certain practices that think are somewhat silly though, like the "outraged denial of training". The fact is, if someone studies Wah Lum under Chan, then leaves, he has still trained under chan. If master Chan teaches someone for 5+ yrs, makes him an instructor, then they have a falling out, that person still has all the ability that they learned, wether they are on speaking terms with chan or not. Should they open "official Wah Lum schools"? No, that belongs to Chan. But can they teach what they know? Sure they can, they know it don't they? They were teaching people weren't they? And what do you expect them to do when people ask them "Hey, where did you learn this from?" If they say ANYTHING other than "at wah lum", then aren't they lying? There's a term for all this, and it isn't "kung fu", it's "internal politics". Try and keep them seperated.

Now, it would be wrong to represent oneself as an official Wah Lum instructor if you aren't one. But as long as you say something to the affect of "I'm no longer affiliated with them", then there isn't anything wrong with it. But it's pretty silly to expect people to lie about a) what they are teaching, or b) what the style is called.

As for wether or not you should be teaching what you know about kung fu to anyone, that's ultimately the students choice. They go into a class room, look at what people are doing there, and then decide wether or not to study it. That true wether it's Kung Fu or basket weaving. If you really suck at Kung fu, your class will reflect that.

Oh and as for the following analogy:
"When I leave the company I work for should I continue to give out business cards saying I'm a network engineer for so-and-so?"
No, that wouldn't be right, but guess what, handing out a resume saying that "I learned this, gained all my experience, and taught this while there" is actually what people do.

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com

[MiamiMantis]

Since we are talking about Wah Lum let me throw in my 2.5 cents again. Sandman2 I think you misunderstood what they were saying about authorized/unauthorized. Kind of think of it like your drivers license. You have to renew it every couple of years so that state knows that you remember what your supposed to know. If it expires, you suddenly don't forget how to drive, you just not allowed to drive (legally). If you are caught illegally driving, then you are punished for driving w/o a valid license. Same principal. The certifcation is to protect the legal Sifu's from people teaching "Wah Lum" illegally. Also it is to keep the forms uniform in nature. I hope this helped. Wah Lummers are not defensive, just protective, just like anybody would be of their Sifu in Wing Chun or Eagle Claw or Karate or in under water basket weaving...... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[NorthernMantis]

Hua Lin Laoshi
I meant that it saddens me that people in the chinese MA's don't follow rules and traidition anymore.You train at the temple right?You might have seen me there before or might even know me.I don't come back here much anymore.E-mail me so we could talk.My e-mail is Shaolin96@hotmail.com or LoHanEliTe@aol.com

peace

[BeiTangLang]

The re-certification is free??

"Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

[Papieboni]

MiamiMantis,

Te whole drivers license thing is a VERY bad analogy.

I think Sandman is right on track.

Using the drivers license thing?

it is much more complicated than that. Having a drivers license is a priviledge in this country. Using the name Wah Lum is a priviledge as would any name when you are a member of a organization. However, when you pay for a service such as Kung Fu it is now yours. You can do with it as you please, your Sifu or organization may not agree or may be upset, because it is not traditionally right to do so, but one could if they wanted to.

I agree, if I was to teach what I have learned from a individual that was once part of the wah lum organization and was to use the Wah Lum name I would be forced legally to refrain, However, If I put Joe's Chicken Shack Kung Fu school on the door and people were interested in classes and asked me what I taught, I would say Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu, from the Wah Lum Mantis Tradition. or traditions of Wah Lum as I do now when people ask me what i teach i tell them Seven Star Praying Mantis and traditions of the Wah Lum System. I dont advocate that I am a member of the Wah Lum organization or a certified instructor of that organization. Just if they ask who my teachers are i tell them the truth, I was taught and later certified to teach praying mantis kung fu under a former instructor of the Wah Lum System
and am now continuing my studies in Seven Star.

I think by getting on the forum and telling people that Robins Sifu is not a authorized Wah Lum instructor was unnecessary, who cares whether he is or not she didn't say he was, all she said is that she is learning Wah Lum from him.


Unless Master Chan has changed over the years its the same Wah Lum. Whether you learned it 20 years ago or yesterday.

[Papieboni]

I could tell him you said hello if I knew who you were? it is not in your profile. you can email me at Papieboni@aol.com

Thanks.

[MiamiMantis]

Yeah maybe it wasn't the best comparison, but I'm sure you get the point anyways. Also there are Wah Lum schools pooping up all over the place that are legit. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of them. You can't go wrong at www.wahlum.com. (http://www.wahlum.com.) Got a question? e-mail them and they we give you the lowdown on who's what....go to the source. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Sorry to be bringing everybody down but I think it's a good point to discuss. Actually, I have mixed views about the subject. I certainly agree that we all have a right to our opinions and I'm very much interested in the opinions of others in this forum.

And I'm sure we can discuss it without flaming or bad mouthing others.

I can understand the need to maintain the integrity of the style but you can't erase people's minds when they leave either. Wah Lum is unique in that there isn't much outside of Master Chan. Not like other styles with widespread lineage. And his goal is to unify Wah Lum under one organization. So you can see that having 'renegade' Wah Lum schools is working against his goal. And it's not just a power trip. Master Chan has older kung fu brothers (mostly family) that want him to do this.

You have to agree that once it's out in the public it risks getting watered down and can very easily get a bad name if promoted by unqualified people.

How do other styles handle issues like this? Apparently there seems to be some confusion concerning 8 Step Mantis. I know there was plenty of controversy when Ed Parker died. Anyone want to comment on how other styles deal with this?

I think it's more of an American thing. Like trying to copywrite intellectual property. I think sooner or later it will go to the courts to decide if forms and techniques and styles can be copywrited. I'm sure Master Chan isn't the only one trying to maintain control over an organization that he is in charge of.

Don't know if I'm making any sense. Trying to work, talk to a Sifu in Tennessee in AIM, and e-mailing a friend asking technical questions. Will post again when I can think out what I want to say.

[This message was edited by Hua Lin Laoshi on 11-06-00 at 02:49 PM.]