For My fellow Canadians

[David Jamieson]

Hey

Remember at 11, your fathers, your father's father, your Mothers, your Mother's mother. Your brothers and sisters, then and now.

Those who are in service now and those who served and those who served and fell.

2 minutes, once a year, is not a lot to ask and it instills an important lesson for each of us if we bother to look.

peace

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey

Remember at 11, your fathers, your father's father, your Mothers, your Mother's mother. Your brothers and sisters, then and now.

Those who are in service now and those who served and those who served and fell.

2 minutes, once a year, is not a lot to ask and it instills an important lesson for each of us if we bother to look.

peace

Never have so many owed so much to so few...

I won't be able to make it to service this year...:(

[SimonM]

Let's remember that these good people died in wars and hope for an end to war once and for all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let's remember that these good people died in wars and hope for an end to war once and for all.

Well...we know THAT won't happen anytime soon, but there is always hope.

[SimonM]

That hope is what is supposed to guide this day.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know what ****es me off? ( not you Simon)

People that take advantage of the freedoms and liberties that we have now, paid for by the blood of those that died, and sit their with a smug " I am a pacifist and would never go to war", look on their face.
Yeah, JW's I am talking to you !
Sure God hates War, but that didn't stop the likes of Hitler, did it?
Easy to say that you'd never kill or fight, but that you would die for your ideals, easy that is because you KNOW someone is there to protect you.
Hitler would have loved people like you, people that find "comfort" in their moral high ground, high ground that only exists because others are willing to kill and die for it.

Rant done.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"“War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” —John Stuart Mill "

[SimonM]

Some wars are just wars.

WWII for one.

I think it's just important, as members of a free society to distinguish between those wars which are just (or even necessary) and those wars which are not.

The truth is that the world doesn't need or want world cops.

If it did nations would have long since deferred sovereignty to the UN.

As long as the idea of the sovereign nation remains part of the formulation we have for the structure of global society there will be places where people in power do awful things to people who are not in power.

I question the veracity of singling out one such place over another, expecially when the cynic in me points to the realpolitik motivations behind such decisions.

(For example Afghanistan and Iraq as opposed to Burma or Sudan)

As a result I don't believe war to be the appropriate solution to problem nations unless they begin to act expansionistically.

Furthermore I am a very vocal proponent of both UN peacekeeping activities (which I advocate the expansion of) and of diplomacy without preconditions (nothing would make me happier than seeing the USA and Iran actually sit down and talk).

Honestly I wish for a world where pacifism was tenable.

But that's not the world we live in right now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some wars are just wars.

WWII for one.

I think it's just important, as members of a free society to distinguish between those wars which are just (or even necessary) and those wars which are not.

The truth is that the world doesn't need or want world cops.

If it did nations would have long since deferred sovereignty to the UN.

As long as the idea of the sovereign nation remains part of the formulation we have for the structure of global society there will be places where people in power do awful things to people who are not in power.

I question the veracity of singling out one such place over another, expecially when the cynic in me points to the realpolitik motivations behind such decisions.

(For example Afghanistan and Iraq as opposed to Burma or Sudan)

As a result I don't believe war to be the appropriate solution to problem nations unless they begin to act expansionistically.

Furthermore I am a very vocal proponent of both UN peacekeeping activities (which I advocate the expansion of) and of diplomacy without preconditions (nothing would make me happier than seeing the USA and Iran actually sit down and talk).

Honestly I wish for a world where pacifism was tenable.

But that's not the world we live in right now.

I concur for the most part.
I think that military intervention ,as was the case in the Balkans for example, is a must in the world we live in.
Protecting those that can't protect themselves has always been a noble goal of any warrior.
Preemptive and punitive military action is a tricky slope indeed.

[SimonM]

Preemptive and punitive military action is a tricky slope indeed.

I would say preemptive action should not be undertaken.
As for puitive military action, it is a very tricky slope. So frequently it blows up in the face of the people engaging in it. And a question begs asking: when is the suffering of a people enough to engage in the creation of the even greater suffering of war in hopes of bringing about a respite? What factors of ideology should be considered? To what extent should realpolitik be considered?

I think we all agree that genocide is bad. Certainly it is the reason for justifying Balkan involvement and WWII (well that and in WWII there was the matter of nazi expansionism).

But if that is so, and if we set that as the bar for punitive action, than why are we in Afghanistan (with no genocide) but not Sudan or the Congo?

If genocide is not the bar than what is?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would say preemptive action should not be undertaken.
As for puitive military action, it is a very tricky slope. So frequently it blows up in the face of the people engaging in it. And a question begs asking: when is the suffering of a people enough to engage in the creation of the even greater suffering of war in hopes of bringing about a respite? What factors of ideology should be considered? To what extent should realpolitik be considered?

I think we all agree that genocide is bad. Certainly it is the reason for justifying Balkan involvement and WWII (well that and in WWII there was the matter of nazi expansionism).

But if that is so, and if we set that as the bar for punitive action, than why are we in Afghanistan (with no genocide) but not Sudan or the Congo?

If genocide is not the bar than what is?

Don't forget, the military is under control of the politicians, not the other way around.
They go where they are sent.

[SimonM]

Oh I am very fundamentally aware of that.

Nothing is more basically political than war.

I should have probably clarified that "the people engaging in it" refers to the states (and the leaders of said states) who engage the war, not the soldiers sent to fight it.

[David Jamieson]

The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war. -- Desiderius Erasmus


There was never a good war or a bad peace. -- Ben Franklin


It is easier to lead men to combat, stirring up their passion, than to restrain them and direct them toward the patient labors of peace. -- Andre Gide


Peace-making is a healing process and it begins with me, but it does not end there. -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman



We will not build a peaceful world by following a negative path. It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it. We must concentrate not merely on the negative expulsion of war but on the positive affirmation of peace. We must see that peace represents a sweeter music, a cosmic melody, that is far superior to the discords of war. Somehow, we must transform the dynamics of the world power struggle from the negative nuclear arms race, which no one can win, to a positive contest to harness humanity's creative genius for the purpose of making peace and prosperity a reality for all the nations of the world. In short, we must shift the arms race into a peace race. If we have a will - and determination - to mount such a peace offensive, we will unlock hitherto tightly sealed doors of hope and transform our imminent cosmic elegy into a psalm of creative fulfillment. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.


:)

[Yum Cha]

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

[Liddel]

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

Go the Anzacs !


You know what ****es me off? ( not you Simon)
Sure God hates War, but that didn't stop the likes of Hitler, did it?
Easy to say that you'd never kill or fight, but that you would die for your ideals, easy that is because you KNOW someone is there to protect you.
Hitler would have loved people like you, people that find "comfort" in their moral high ground, high ground that only exists because others are willing to kill and die for it.
Rant done.

Good people that sit around and do nothing... are letting evil triumph :o

Your point Ronin reminds me of a time when a buddy of mine from Quebec said he thought Bush was the modern version of Hitler.....I said bruva thats a bit far fetched.... Hitler was a great public speaker :p

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war. -- Desiderius Erasmus


There was never a good war or a bad peace. -- Ben Franklin


It is easier to lead men to combat, stirring up their passion, than to restrain them and direct them toward the patient labors of peace. -- Andre Gide


Peace-making is a healing process and it begins with me, but it does not end there. -- Gene Knudsen Hoffman



We will not build a peaceful world by following a negative path. It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it. We must concentrate not merely on the negative expulsion of war but on the positive affirmation of peace. We must see that peace represents a sweeter music, a cosmic melody, that is far superior to the discords of war. Somehow, we must transform the dynamics of the world power struggle from the negative nuclear arms race, which no one can win, to a positive contest to harness humanity's creative genius for the purpose of making peace and prosperity a reality for all the nations of the world. In short, we must shift the arms race into a peace race. If we have a will - and determination - to mount such a peace offensive, we will unlock hitherto tightly sealed doors of hope and transform our imminent cosmic elegy into a psalm of creative fulfillment. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.


:)

All those men were able to say this because good people died for their rights to say it.
Fact is, war is NOT and should NEVER be a "continuation of politics/policy".
Clauswitz was wrong and all those that followed in that dilusion were wrong.

[SimonM]

Should never, yes.
Has been though.

That's my beef with the wars we are seeing western involvement in right now.