Whose a Better Fighter?: It's Never Objective

[Eric Olson]

As I was reading the post about whether or not Taiji Quan is an effective fighting style it occurred to me that there is no objective measure to determine that. In fact I believe there isn't any objective measure to determine if any style is better than an another style.

A "fight" is a very complex interaction between two individuals who differ in their psychological and biological makeup. It really comes down to what one individual possesses that gives them an edge over their competitor. Are they stronger, faster, more experienced, better cardio, faster hand eye coordination, do they practice more, are they meaner or more sadistic, are they having a good day or a bad day?

The idea of training is that you cover all those bases and try to increase the likelihood that you're going to win. But there's always that possibility that you're going to lose because the competitor possessed some attribute that you didn't have, either through training or just naturally.

So it seems a little ridiculous to chalk a "win" up to any particular style. In the end I think it comes down to the individual and how they maximize things to their advantage.

Can some individuals use Taiji to fight? I think so. Can some individuals use Shaolin-Do to fight? Yeah, probably. Are there individuals who study MMA that can't fight? Yeah, I bet there are.

So at the end of the day, in any given fight its more about what the individual puts into their training, to increase their likelihood of winning, then the advantages that any particular style confer. And even with the advantages of training an individual can still lose to a competitor that's a natural or simply uses an unanticipated unorthodox style.

And that's why its so ridiculous for individuals to point to their teachers, classmates, schools or styles as proof positive of their ability to fight. Their ability should only be measured by how many fights they've been in, the number of wins vs. losses and the quality of their opponents.

And if you can't verify that in a teacher then why would you choose to learn to fight from a person that has no record of their ability? It'd be like learning to play tennis from someone that has never played a game in their life and just stands on the court swinging their racket.

Cheers,

EO

**After posting this I realized the title should have read "Which style is better?:Its never objective"

[Eric Olson]

P.S. As an aside, I think martial arts have much more to offer than just fighting ability but if you are making claims solely about fighting ability then all of what I said applies.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you wanna judge a systems "fighting ability" you must look to its average practioner and see how they TRAIN.
It's actually pretty simple.

[Ray Pina]

I believe there isn't any objective measure to determine if any style is better than an another style.
You see which style wins consistently and why (see below)


But there's always that possibility that you're going to lose because the competitor possessed some attribute that you didn't have, either through training or just naturally.

This is the exact point. Kung Fu training, all of them, hard and soft, north and south, are missing so many key attributes.

First I would start with endurance. Kung Fu, because they aren't fighting for real for the most part, hasn't caught on to just how taxing fighting is. They are terribly under-prepared physically. Training BJJ and Vale Tudo now, my God, my Kung Fu training was a joke. I have to change out of my clothes after training now... I am literally soak and wet. Literally as if I jumped in a pool. Pools of sweat on the mat. It's not unlikely that I have to run outside every fourth training session to collect myself. We're pushing ourselves very hard.

Next is what and how Kung Fu trains. Kung Fu stylists think they have some holy grail of high-level technique but it never seems to work. Either the technique is no good or the way you're training it. That's up to each school to decide but I would say it's probably a little bit of both.

Attitude. I've been to Kung Fu schools that were laid back and I've been to more disciplined programs. Either lax or disciplined, none of them had an air of a place that is making it its very serious business to produce capable a$$ kickers. The air was of business... selling uniforms and sashes and keeping everyone happy and coming back for next week's shaolin technique #55. When fighters train we discipline ourselves. We all know why we are there. Very often someone has a BJJ or fight coming up, so we rally and focus on certain aspects of the game for them. We're all serious. We all improve.

Competing Openly. $hitty Kung Fu competes against $hitty Kung Fu under pu$$y rules. You don't get better that way.

BJJ competes against BJJ in BJJ tournaments, but BJJ has already proved its quality and standard. It has already made fools of kung fu, karate, etc. The level of competition within this one style is pushing everyone further weekly. MMA folks are improving faster then everyone. I see it. The guys who compete improve much faster. They have to.

Overall lifestyle. When you take the above for granted... that you are training hard with like minded guys to compete openly, it affects your entire life. You speak up in training if you see something that just doesn't look right. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you positionally. it's your a$$ on the line. It's not being disrespectful, it's wanting to understand it. Maybe that technique is never for you, but voicing a real concern, pointing something out, is appreciated among fighting crew.

Also, you aint going to be drinking coca-cola and eating $hit... you can't afford that. Your body has to run on high-octane, clean, natural food. This makes you more fit, allows you to push the training even further.


This has all been posted honestly. Compare this way of being with your typical wing chun or taiji school and then think about your question.

[taai gihk yahn]

$hitty Kung Fu competes against $hitty Kung Fu under pu$$y rules. You don't get better that way.
add to sig...

ok Ray (and anyone else), so here's the question - will it ever be possible for there to be non-sh1tty KF competing under non-pus$y (peni$?) rules? and if it does, will it still "look like" KF? personally, I think not, but I think that is precisely why so much of KF flounders - superficial attachment to appearances for their own sake - and dealing with the reality that when you start really applying your stuff against resisting opponents, a lot of both content and context go out the window; and if then that is the case, what does this portent for TCMA as a training method? personally, I think we are in the midst of a major evolutionary shift, where the demarcation between essence and appearance starts to really widen, and although you will still have those "hidden" masters with their "unstoppable" secret techniques and death touches bamboozliing people, the reality is that TCMA practitioners will have to adapt fast if they want to preach efficacy (don't get me wrong - I am a big fan of so-called "traditional" training, but people need to clearly see what it is that they are doing and why they are getting the outcomes they are getting when matching up against people with no psychological investment in TCMA being "preserved")

[David Jamieson]

san shou/san da/chinese kick boxers/ wrestlers type people are in the here and now trying to get away from the image of dancing gheyness that a lot of wushu type stuff has morphed into.

there will be a big separation and frankly, the prc can keep the dancing fruitcakery and the rest of us will carry forward the martial arts and who cares if people don't call it kungfu anymore. lol

i wish the crap would just die already and go away and I wish they would stop making silly movies of flying people without the proper contextual explanations in order to have people understand that these are batman superman stories and not much more.

fanatasy is tied to closely to chinese martial arts and that is what has been it's ruination more than anything. It attracts weak minds and produces weak fighters and ego ridden "masters". Most of it is dross and it's sad, but oh well, keep training hard and you keep the real stuff alive. It's all you can do. Lazy minds and lazy bodies will always look for external trappings and nonsense to support their weakness behind a mask of skewed perception.

let the babies have their bottles I say and carry on!

hoo rah! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

add to sig...

ok Ray (and anyone else), so here's the question - will it ever be possible for there to be non-sh1tty KF competing under non-pus$y (peni$?) rules? and if it does, will it still "look like" KF? personally, I think not, but I think that is precisely why so much of KF flounders - superficial attachment to appearances for their own sake - and dealing with the reality that when you start really applying your stuff against resisting opponents, a lot of both content and context go out the window; and if then that is the case, what does this portent for TCMA as a training method? personally, I think we are in the midst of a major evolutionary shift, where the demarcation between essence and appearance starts to really widen, and although you will still have those "hidden" masters with their "unstoppable" secret techniques and death touches bamboozliing people, the reality is that TCMA practitioners will have to adapt fast if they want to preach efficacy (don't get me wrong - I am a big fan of so-called "traditional" training, but people need to clearly see what it is that they are doing and why they are getting the outcomes they are getting when matching up against people with no psychological investment in TCMA being "preserved")

Can kung fu "look" like kung fu outside of controlled demos or "same style" sparring?
Yes, IF there is a huge skill discrepency.
I've seen it, heck I have done it, but you certainly don't judge ANY system based on what its skilled practioner can do VS an unskilled person.
That's just silly.
But that is what most people in TMA tend to do and TMA suffer for this.
A functional system is one that works well under ANY and ALL rules set, or lack there off.

[SimonM]

I wish they would stop making silly movies of flying people without the proper contextual explanations in order to have people understand that these are batman superman stories and not much more.


Sorry but blaming movies because people are idiots is something I have never been willing to do.

I mean how many people go out and become serial killers because they watched Saw XXIII?

If you are too stupid to understand that the "silly movies of flying people" (wu ji, crouching tiger, anything at all involving Tsui Hark, etc.) are just superhero and fantasy movies well...

You are just plain stupid.

What SHOULD happen is that sifus should stop exploiting these grade A morons for a cheap buck.

[David Jamieson]

Sorry but blaming movies because people are idiots is something I have never been willing to do.

I mean how many people go out and become serial killers because they watched Saw XXIII?

If you are too stupid to understand that the "silly movies of flying people" (wu ji, crouching tiger, anything at all involving Tsui Hark, etc.) are just superhero and fantasy movies well...

You are just plain stupid.

What SHOULD happen is that sifus should stop exploiting these grade A morons for a cheap buck.

Well, I agree for the most part in regards to those out there with a little common sense.

But, in my observations, life often imitates art, especially with youth.
In other words, when it comes to martial arts, the older one gets, the less tolerance they have for bullsh1t, but the sweet ignorance of youth has no barriers to believing all sorts of bloody nonsense. And because of this, you have droves and droves of goofy crap. When older people exploit this axiom, not only are the spoiling the broth, they perpetuate lies that ultimately damage us all. So yes, teachers should stop exploiting the ignorant and if you can devise a method to make that happen, then all power too ya.

Personally I think that the new species of full contact fighting is quickly squashing the nonsense. Choking it out so to speak and frankly, good riddance garbage martial arts, I hardly knew yee. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I am sure that the latest, Brock "the inexperienced and inferior fighter" beating Randy "uber-experience" Couture, with sheer strength and power, will help to bring even more reality to MA.

[TenTigers]

You see which style wins consistently and why (see below)



This is the exact point. Kung Fu training, all of them, hard and soft, north and south, are missing so many key attributes.

First I would start with endurance. Kung Fu, because they aren't fighting for real for the most part, hasn't caught on to just how taxing fighting is. They are terribly under-prepared physically. Training BJJ and Vale Tudo now, my God, my Kung Fu training was a joke. I have to change out of my clothes after training now... I am literally soak and wet. Literally as if I jumped in a pool. Pools of sweat on the mat. It's not unlikely that I have to run outside every fourth training session to collect myself. We're pushing ourselves very hard.Next is what and how Kung Fu trains. Kung Fu stylists think they have some holy grail of high-level technique but it never seems to work. Either the technique is no good or the way you're training it. That's up to each school to decide but I would say it's probably a little bit of both.

Attitude. I've been to Kung Fu schools that were laid back and I've been to more disciplined programs. Either lax or disciplined, none of them had an air of a place that is making it its very serious business to produce capable a$$ kickers. The air was of business... selling uniforms and sashes and keeping everyone happy and coming back for next week's shaolin technique #55. When fighters train we discipline ourselves. We all know why we are there. Very often someone has a BJJ or fight coming up, so we rally and focus on certain aspects of the game for them. We're all serious. We all improve.
Competing Openly. $hitty Kung Fu competes against $hitty Kung Fu under pu$$y rules. You don't get better that way.

BJJ competes against BJJ in BJJ tournaments, but BJJ has already proved its quality and standard. It has already made fools of kung fu, karate, etc. The level of competition within this one style is pushing everyone further weekly. MMA folks are improving faster then everyone. I see it. The guys who compete improve much faster. They have to.

Overall lifestyle. When you take the above for granted... that you are training hard with like minded guys to compete openly, it affects your entire life. You speak up in training if you see something that just doesn't look right. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you positionally. it's your a$$ on the line. It's not being disrespectful, it's wanting to understand it. Maybe that technique is never for you, but voicing a real concern, pointing something out, is appreciated among fighting crew.

Also, you aint going to be drinking coca-cola and eating $hit... you can't afford that. Your body has to run on high-octane, clean, natural food. This makes you more fit, allows you to push the training even further.


This has all been posted honestly. Compare this way of being with your typical wing chun or taiji school and then think about your question.

If you actually listen to what you are saying Ray, you are not speaking about one style being better, or TCMA being inneffective. EVERYTHING you pointed out was
entirely about training methodology-not style.

[Mr. C]

"my Kung Fu training was a joke."

Okay, so now its out. Are you happy now, Ray?
I guess there is no reason to visit Master Chan, now having insulted him again with the quote above.

Perhaps, so you dont look like a fellow with sour grapes or who has become spiteful, may I suggest you leave kung fu to the 97 percent of its practitioners who use it as fullfillment of their fantasies. Where they are too stupid to understand that the word means SKILL and that all their dancing will never lead them to it.

Your points are valid and can be said with out insulting those poor wanabees who train in CMA but have NO KUNG FU! Its time for you to move on Ray! I know of plenty BJJ forums as well as MMA forums that would welcome you. Leave the faults of Kung Fu to be worked on by those who want it. In the end CMA will either wither away or improve. Enjoy your new life as a promoter of BJJ, and forget that you were once the self proclaimed savior of Kung Fu who was going to prove that in the Cage, I ask you to not become the crucifier of Kung Fu and instead walk away and enjoy your new path.

This topic has been discussed to death with no change in the view of CMA as an effective or ineffective method. The bottom line is people have their own views on everything and that makes life interesting. Be happy and continue to let martial arts make you stupid or fufill your fantasy as some important master of a recreational activity where people boost your ego and call you Sifu even though subconciously you know, you have NO SKILL and WILL NEVER enter a real combative arena. (UPTOWN FOR INSTANCE)

Mr. C will continue to blow heads off with a 50 cal from a mile away or drop artillery on someones head from ten miles away. I know my Kung Fu, Now whose your Sifu? Baby

[David Jamieson]

Wait a minute Mr.C, are you saying that you are a sniper and an artillery spotter? lol :p

[Mr. C]

Its just a fantasy :D

[David Jamieson]

Just for the record, I would jump at a chance to train with Angelo Dundee.

He wasn't a fighter, but he was a top notch trainer and if you don't believe it, go talk to Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard.

The fighter is the style but the trainer, that's different. it's not the trainers job to go out and fight, and let me tell you something, no offense intendedbut a lot of fighters can barely articulate how to tie your shoes, nevermind give you good training.

In fact, the p[roblem with having a fighter train you is that they don't know how to train others for the most part because they've spent all their time getting trained and often times don't have a clue on how to build a program to develop you.

so that whole "you gotta train under someone who can fight stuff"? That is sh1t talk.
You gotta train under someone who can deliver excellent methods to bring the desired results. No results = sh1tty trainer or you have no motivation, no listening skills or a learning disability. If you aren't getting results from your training, the onus is on you to recognize that, examine if it's your failure or if it's the method's failure.

[Mr. C]

I AGREE!

Well Ray, was it the Karate Method or the Kung Fu Method that did not work for you? Was Master Chan or your other teachers fighters but poor trainers? Or were they good trainers and you failed them?

I guess we will wait and see if the Jujitsu Method works for you, and we wont count that recent loss you had in kickboxing or the real confrontation with those Boricua's who were ready to tune you up in P.R.

We will also wait to see what your everything counts/goes (Vale Tudo) method can do. Practice hard....Oh wait, you have been.

Score= Karate tag games- winner
Kickboxing - Loser
Kung Fu Throwdowns - winner
Kung Fu Cage - Loser
Jujitsu- ?
Vale Tudo - ?
Fantasy - Loser
Reality - ?

[Ray Pina]

Karate was awesome. I started young. Taught me proper attitude towards life, training and others. Solid foundation in every range, including some free play on the ground.

By 11 I was over forms ...competing with them, and hungry to get more to increase my rank. I lost a real fight for the first time in my backyard alleyway by a kid 1.5 years older then me. He bloodied me up and I was embarrassed to have my mom put a frozen steak on my face and later explain to my dad why his karate prodigy son (by this point I had more trophies than we had space) got his a$$ kicked. This was the beginning of my questioning of all training.

Kung Fu: I appreciate the sticking I learned. Priceless if you can find people to train it for real... I didn't have such an easy time doing that. Even at the big Kung Fu tournaments. Does it make sense to stand your ground, intercept an incoming strike and then tap somebody on a chest protector which may or may not be registered as a "point"? It quickly didn't for me.

As for my teachers: Let it be registered right here... when I started training BJJ, my first class was with Renzo Gracie. I see out the best of what I want to learn. Master David Bond Chan is a warrior. He was a very good teacher. Taught me the principles I learned so well I could go jump into a San Da ring twice with no corner, no extra training, just show up and give it ago. Same with my last two cage fights.

Now, that is retarded. Obviously... and I might have lost, but I didn't get busted up. And I learned. And it forced me to improve.

My Master's Ba Gua lineage is like this: Dong Hai Chuan ---> Gueng Bo Tien --> Wang San Fe --> Master Chan. Fu(k you if you think there's better. And put your sniper rifle down and I'd be down to play with you.

My Wing Chun is pretty good. Played with some guys on the island. Trained with another guy under Robert Chu. Actually learned alot and was humbled challenging Emin Boztepe years ago when he was in NYC. Chinatown cats.

S MAntis from Milton and Norman Chin's student.

I've probably been exposed to as much good kung fu as anyone on this board and more than most.

Present training/ability: I love BJJ and will always train it even when I grow tired of fighting. It makes me feel like a super hero. I jumped off a deck like it was no thing last night because it was just easier than going down stairs. Things like that everyday.

My boxing needs a lot of work.

Bro, the difference between me and most of the guys on this board is that I KNOW I'M A KOOK. I've already kicked so much karate a$$, kung fu a$$, wrestling a$$... I'm trying to push through to that next level: elite fighters. And I got news for you. Even at amateur level these MMA guys are top notch. Sharp. There are no easy fights anymore.

You guys can blow smoke up your a$$. Guys were doing it here 5, 8 years ago when I first said I was going to fight in the cage. Most of those guys are probably fatter and slower today. I have now fought in the cage and don't sweat it and am preparing myself for my first victory. I don't care about style. I care about being open and honest in my life.

I honestly view "Kung Fu" lower than Tae Kwan Do. They're both useless by themselves, but at least Tae Kwan Do produces some donkey kickers at the higher belts. Crisp, accurate kicks.

I honestly haven't met another Kung Fu guy besides Master Chan that has impressed me. How's that for keeping it real? Most are flat out phonies. They may have trained, even for years, but you know when someone is down to throw the fists and when they're not.... they're not. Which is why they don't.

Well, this has been a lot of words and time devoted to, what, explaining what I've already explained and justifying myself?

What is there to explain? Look around. There are no Kung Fu guys doing di(k! That's reality.... the little place I like to live.

As for me: I'm doing the best I can to grow as a martial artists while remaining balanced in other areas of my life. But I tell you what.... I feel real GOOD. I'm a fu(king much better fighter than I was 2 years ago..... and I was whupping much a$$ then.

Keep talking. That sort of thing motivates me. A couple guys on here used to ride my nuts a bit and I kept my mouth relatively shut.... and these are guys selling themselves like crazy. Kung Fu guys who haven't done di(k. No fights. None. Nada. And they're regarding as experts in their field..... internal kung fu experts who've never fought. Imagine that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just for the record, I would jump at a chance to train with Angelo Dundee.

He wasn't a fighter, but he was a top notch trainer and if you don't believe it, go talk to Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard.

The fighter is the style but the trainer, that's different. it's not the trainers job to go out and fight, and let me tell you something, no offense intendedbut a lot of fighters can barely articulate how to tie your shoes, nevermind give you good training.

In fact, the p[roblem with having a fighter train you is that they don't know how to train others for the most part because they've spent all their time getting trained and often times don't have a clue on how to build a program to develop you.

so that whole "you gotta train under someone who can fight stuff"? That is sh1t talk.
You gotta train under someone who can deliver excellent methods to bring the desired results. No results = sh1tty trainer or you have no motivation, no listening skills or a learning disability. If you aren't getting results from your training, the onus is on you to recognize that, examine if it's your failure or if it's the method's failure.

A trainer needs fight experience, beyond that, his actual record is semi-irrelevant.
Dundee, Stewart, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were even contenders if I recall, though I may be mistaken about Emanuel Stewart, he may have been a contender, but I could be mistaking him with someone else ( got punched in the head a lot when I was younger).
Fact is, we don't see many former champions being trainers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Karate was awesome. I started young. Taught me proper attitude towards life, training and others. Solid foundation in every range, including some free play on the ground.

By 11 I was over forms ...competing with them, and hungry to get more to increase my rank. I lost a real fight for the first time in my backyard alleyway by a kid 1.5 years older then me. He bloodied me up and I was embarrassed to have my mom put a frozen steak on my face and later explain to my dad why his karate prodigy son (by this point I had more trophies than we had space) got his a$$ kicked. This was the beginning of my questioning of all training.

Kung Fu: I appreciate the sticking I learned. Priceless if you can find people to train it for real... I didn't have such an easy time doing that. Even at the big Kung Fu tournaments. Does it make sense to stand your ground, intercept an incoming strike and then tap somebody on a chest protector which may or may not be registered as a "point"? It quickly didn't for me.

As for my teachers: Let it be registered right here... when I started training BJJ, my first class was with Renzo Gracie. I see out the best of what I want to learn. Master David Bond Chan is a warrior. He was a very good teacher. Taught me the principles I learned so well I could go jump into a San Da ring twice with no corner, no extra training, just show up and give it ago. Same with my last two cage fights.

Now, that is retarded. Obviously... and I might have lost, but I didn't get busted up. And I learned. And it forced me to improve.

My Master's Ba Gua lineage is like this: Dong Hai Chuan ---> Gueng Bo Tien --> Wang San Fe --> Master Chan. Fu(k you if you think there's better. And put your sniper rifle down and I'd be down to play with you.

My Wing Chun is pretty good. Played with some guys on the island. Trained with another guy under Robert Chu. Actually learned alot and was humbled challenging Emin Boztepe years ago when he was in NYC. Chinatown cats.

S MAntis from Milton and Norman Chin's student.

I've probably been exposed to as much good kung fu as anyone on this board and more than most.

Present training/ability: I love BJJ and will always train it even when I grow tired of fighting. It makes me feel like a super hero. I jumped off a deck like it was no thing last night because it was just easier than going down stairs. Things like that everyday.

My boxing needs a lot of work.

Bro, the difference between me and most of the guys on this board is that I KNOW I'M A KOOK. I've already kicked so much karate a$$, kung fu a$$, wrestling a$$... I'm trying to push through to that next level: elite fighters. And I got news for you. Even at amateur level these MMA guys are top notch. Sharp. There are no easy fights anymore.

You guys can blow smoke up your a$$. Guys were doing it here 5, 8 years ago when I first said I was going to fight in the cage. Most of those guys are probably fatter and slower today. I have now fought in the cage and don't sweat it and am preparing myself for my first victory. I don't care about style. I care about being open and honest in my life.

I honestly view "Kung Fu" lower than Tae Kwan Do. They're both useless by themselves, but at least Tae Kwan Do produces some donkey kickers at the higher belts. Crisp, accurate kicks.

I honestly haven't met another Kung Fu guy besides Master Chan that has impressed me. How's that for keeping it real? Most are flat out phonies. They may have trained, even for years, but you know when someone is down to throw the fists and when they're not.... they're not. Which is why they don't.

Well, this has been a lot of words and time devoted to, what, explaining what I've already explained and justifying myself?

What is there to explain? Look around. There are no Kung Fu guys doing di(k! That's reality.... the little place I like to live.

As for me: I'm doing the best I can to grow as a martial artists while remaining balanced in other areas of my life. But I tell you what.... I feel real GOOD. I'm a fu(king much better fighter than I was 2 years ago..... and I was whupping much a$$ then.

Keep talking. That sort of thing motivates me. A couple guys on here used to ride my nuts a bit and I kept my mouth relatively shut.... and these are guys selling themselves like crazy. Kung Fu guys who haven't done di(k. No fights. None. Nada. And they're regarding as experts in their field..... internal kung fu experts who've never fought. Imagine that?

I can feel Ray's pain, I know where he is coming from.
Don't agree with his conclusions, but I was there not to long ago myself.
Fact is, and we all know that, there is too much dilusion in the MA world.
We all know guys that can make ANY MA work, every system in the world has at least 1 guy that can kick ass.
But we also have to be honest that, some systems have more ass kickers than others.

[David Jamieson]

I think that while ray is into the arts and that's cool, his pain is in his own mind and he exacerbates it and even creates it himself by not simply moving on.

I did that too. Now, my grudges are in the here and now. lol

[TenTigers]

Ray, whom did you train Isshinryu under? And at what ages?
I know Nick Adler taught on LI, but if I recall, you said you lived in Long Beach, and Adler was out east.

[MasterKiller]

But we also have to be honest that, some systems have more ass kickers than others. You shouldn't even measure it by system...some camps have more ass kickers than others. You can take three sister schools from any style and they will all differ dramactically from one another.

School > Style.

[TenTigers]

Go to any boxing gym, like Gleason's, etc. Youwill find many people training, only a few fighters.
Go to any MMA school. How many will go to the cage?
I know a girl who does Muay Thai. Not a cardio class. She has no desire to fight. She just loves the workout.

In every school, in every discipline there are the students who come in to train, work out, enjoy themselves, whatever, and the handfull of those who will become fighters. It has always been that way, and will always be that way.

The Pit is now a franchise, and any McDojo can become an affiliation. They make Tapout t-shirts for babies. Isn't that cute?

Oh, btw- there is a new trend making its way into mainstream.
More and more people are talking about how MMA is developing into a poor role model for kids.
Emphasis on the wrong attitudes,unsuitable techniques, lack of conflict resolution, role models, language,injury rates,etc.
Parents are pulling their kids out of classes, adults are dropping out due to injuries.
MMA is a young man's game. 18-25.
From that number, what percentage will fight?
Everybody likes WWE wrestling. How many are on TV?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You shouldn't even measure it by system...some camps have more ass kickers than others. You can take three sister schools from any style and they will all differ dramactically from one another.

School > Style.

Very true indeed.

[Ray Pina]

I think that while ray is into the arts and that's cool, his pain is in his own mind and he exacerbates it and even creates it himself by not simply moving on.

I'm in no pain. Not even physically today, thank God. Though I didn't train yesterday.

I love the arts. Look at it like this: if you have a bunch of folks from the mid west show up to the beach talking all this surf lingo, with the flashy gear, the sun screen, the umbrella, the cooler, the chairs... and they don't even know which side the suf wax goes on. You call them kooks.

When you hear the ridiculous bull$hit here (not all of it. I do find some value at this site) you have to feel the same way.... a bunch of freaking kooks. So kooky they don't even know they're kooks.

Sorry.

No pain involved in calling them how I see them. And of course I could be wrong. Though I have a very sensitive and well tuned Kook-O-Meter. I know. I was a surf kook for a long time. Still a fight kook.... though I don't own a single MMA t-shirt, bag, nothing.

[Ray Pina]

Ray, whom did you train Isshinryu under? And at what ages?
I know Nick Adler taught on LI, but if I recall, you said you lived in Long Beach, and Adler was out east.


It was on Adams St in Newark, NJ. I started when I was four and never new my teacher by anything other than Sensei. Same for his son. And when I became a black belt that was my title to the juniors.

I think the school is still here. It was like 7 years ago. I hope it is.

[Ray Pina]

I can feel Ray's pain, I know where he is coming from.

Man, everyone says I'm in pain... I just came off the best 48 hours of my life. truly.

What pains me is one guy saying I only think MMA is relevant, when I find lots wrong with MMA. Another guy making it look like I give a $hit what happens to Kung Fu. I'd honestly rather it go away except for the fact when I start winning pro fights I might be able to charge a buck or two for teaching. And people will still talk $hit.




We all know guys that can make ANY MA work, every system in the world has at least 1 guy that can kick ass.
But we also have to be honest that, some systems have more ass kickers than others.

Both true.

What did you think of the Lesner/Coutur fight? I was impressed Couture could stay on his feet. He looked good the first round. First thought it was a fix when I saw him buckle from a top-hat graze.... but those aint no normal arms and fists.... so far impressed with Lesner's size and athleticism but he had 45 lbs and what, two decades on Couture and couldn't throw them.

Couture is a master and a champion. He is what, a grecco roman wrestler? His Kung Fu is far better than any Lee, Li, Wu, Chu, chin, lau, Hung, Chan, Wang I've ever seen. A real warrior and class act.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What did you think of the Lesner/Coutur fight? I was impressed Couture could stay on his feet. He looked good the first round. First thought it was a fix when I saw him buckle from a top-hat graze.... but those aint no normal arms and fists.... so far impressed with Lesner's size and athleticism but he had 45 lbs and what, two decades on Couture and couldn't throw them.

Couture is a master and a champion. He is what, a grecco roman wrestler? His Kung Fu is far better than any Lee, Li, Wu, Chu, chin, lau, Hung, Chan, Wang I've ever seen. A real warrior and class act.

Couture is the best, he takes on all comers.
Size matters and Brock had too much of it.
The old adage " experience must fear the strength of youth", is very true.
I don't think that Brock will hold the title for too long though.

[David Jamieson]

Ray-

your pain is that you vent to us here about your problems from old training, old wounds etc and instead, you will only find closure by expressing that to the source.

Of course, it is a lot easier to see from the outside looking in.

expressing some of the strong emotional surges such as you tend to do is cool and all, but we are all strangers and therefore, logically speaking, it's easy for you to vent to us.

The problem is, that will not get you closure, you may get validation. But validation from a complete stranger instead of working it out at the source is meaningless and this is why you go back to the same subject again to the point where you are now inflating it to "ALL kungfu" in your eyes is crappy because YOU had a poor experience.

so from one stranger to another, You gotta own that sh1t man. Own it, see it, put it in your pocket and keep it because it's part of you as a human being, then move on.

:)
peace man

[TenTigers]

Ray, I gotta second that.
You had some bad experiences with former Sifus. You were chastised, burned your bridges behind you, and now you seem to have this vendetta against ALL TCMA. You didn't spend that much time in CMA, and only trained under two instructors. You recieved a smattering of training in Gung-Fu, left under bad circumstances, and are making judgements based upon your limited experience.

Now, what you are doing-your training, your blogs, sharing your victories as well as your defeats are all well and good.
But-this rant only insults your teachers, and shows emotional immaturity.

[Mr. C]

Fu(k you if you think there's better. And put your sniper rifle down and I'd be down to play with you.

I've probably been exposed to as much good kung fu as anyone on this board and more than most.

It makes me feel like a super hero. I jumped off a deck like it was no thing last night because it was just easier than going down stairs.

Bro, the difference between me and most of the guys on this board is that I KNOW I'M A KOOK.

I've already kicked so much karate a$$, kung fu a$$, wrestling a$$... I'm trying to push through to that next level: elite fighters.

You guys can blow smoke up your a$$.

Wow Ray, I think I need more ammunition and a better scope, because YOU ARE a KOOK (Read:MENTAL:eek:)

Ray you should stop fighting and check yourself in. Running away to P.R. has'nt helped but if your ever UPTOWN maybe I'll get you some therapy.

Now Its time to sit still in the corner and drink your milk!

[Ray Pina]

Ah, you must be part of the urban, internal internet crew. Have ANY of you guys done di(k yet?

As far as Puerto Rico, I'll think about how bad I have it tomorrow when I roll out of bed (no alarm clock), throw on my shorts, and paddle out into a surf lineup adorned with bikini clad chicks in 87 degree water. Then I'll come home and buy a few shares of Apple at $88 and go see my hot, ripper, blond girlfriend. It is rough. But somebody got to do it.

[Mr. C]

Sorry Ray, I DONT DO Di(k , but Im glad you got a new fantasy- with girls this time.

Maybe you can get focused on those bikini hotties and do Internal with them!

Instead of being bitter, on this board, for all your own failures, let it go and submit to that blondE .

Now go on with your bad self, SUPERMAN!

[Ray Pina]

Bro, I don't know who $hit in your Cheerios or why you have such a hard on for me but I aint going to go back and forth over the internet like a child.

I have not won a single sanctioned match. It's true and it bothers me... I'm used to winning. In karate. In football. In basketball... this competitive level fighting is a whole other thing. It requires tremendous focus and discipline and I'm working on it. But you know what, winners aren't afraid to lose. I have improved leaps and bounds from each fight. If I didn't get tapped out in the cage by one of coach Ross' guys I wouldn't have sought out BJJ. What a shame that would have been. I'm in the best shape of my life now. healthy. flexible. And counter to what's being posted here, quite happy.

As for the hot blond... I'm tapping already. She got me. I'm praying I get her.

As for you and your crew, if its the crew I think it is, honestly, you should all take a step back and reflect on your conduct as men and martial artists. The impression I get is of bigger, heavier, urban black men calling out smaller, chinese or white, older men already past their prime. Where is the honor in that? You know they're not going to show up. You think you look tough, but rational people can see through it. If a Novell Bell type wants to make a name for himself, he's a heavyweight or Super heavyweight. He's got to fight someone who looks more like Kimbo Slice then Gumby. A Brock Lester. But that hasn't happened. And I bet it won't happen.

Think about it. Am I off about this? And if not, what does all the posturing, online and on video (not fights. In class drilling) do for the state of Kung Fu?

Let's say you are the best Ba Gua has to offer... what does that say for Ba Gua?

[Mr. C]

As for you and your crew, if its the crew I think it is, honestly, you should all take a step back and reflect on your conduct as men and martial artists. The impression I get is of bigger, heavier, urban black men calling out smaller, chinese or white, older men already past their prime.

Holy Sh!t, Ray Im not in any crew! and what the hell was that "black men" thing are you prejudice?

Is that why a "white" Cuban runs to P.R.? I do believe they have people of all colors in P.R. but now I understand why you studied under certain Kung Fu teachers- they did not have "Black" students. Did they Ray?

Ray, were you abused by a black man when you were young? It now makes some sense, Surfing, Blondes (not too many real ones in P.R.) and certain instructors. Ray you are HISPANIC not White, just ask the KKK and take your meds, superboy.

I dont resemble anything in your quote above but I have been picking on you and your not small, chinese, old or WHITE!

I am going to be the bigger man now and let you be, but I am only human and as such cant tolerate Hypocrisy or bull ****ers who one day praise something, the next day crucify it and then return looking for it again. If you hate CMA then dont participate on this forum. Its a Kung Fu forum, not a Kung fu haters forum.

[Ray Pina]

I am only human and as such cant tolerate Hypocrisy or bull ****ers.

Then instead of taking an air of superiority, get off your a$$ and put your training on the line and go out and do something. Who's the bull$hitter? I know I'm not that good but I'm improving, going out, banging. Mixing it up with BJJ, Tai Boxing, Boxing... fighting all these types of guys with various results.

That's different than running websites with all this lineage, hoping on planes to China and wearing kooky Chinese hats and clothes and taking pictures in front of shrines and posting videos of throwing cooperating students around and claiming excellence.... but avoiding the opportunity to truly test one's skill. That's hypocrisy.

Speaking of what you don't know is ignorance. I have a black girlfriend. There are green eyed, blond Puerto Ricans. Though the one I'm vibing on is a beautiful mainland gringa.

Something to think about that your teacher has never got: What happens when you promote yourself so highly but allow yourself to age without hardening yourself with real experience? You can get your a$$ beat real bad by men you push too far who have and the whole house of paper-thin cards comes tumbling down.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the thing Ray, you are not gonna find many fighters in Kung fu, or in most TMA for that matter.
Oh you will find some, just not lots, certainly not comparable to sport combat systems.
Why you ask?
Simple, the majority of people don't take up TMA to fight.
Sure they MAY take it up for self defense, but that is not the same thing.

If someone wants to be a fighter, perhaps even pro, do they walk into a Tai chi Kwoon or a Bagua kwoon or a WC Kwoon?
Or do they go to a boxing or MT or MMA gym?

[Ray Pina]

Here is the thing Ray, you are not gonna find many fighters in Kung fu, or in most TMA for that matter.
That's why they should voice this opinion, for sure. I love dialogue. That's how one learns and expands. At the same time they need to CLEARLY understand that their knowledge of real hand-to-hand combatives is severely restricted, being that they have very little, or no experience with it... and should thus adjust their attitude and comments accordingly.




If someone wants to be a fighter, perhaps even pro, do they walk into a Tai chi Kwoon or a Bagua kwoon or a WC Kwoon?
I have. And I have learned and have grown form it.



Or do they go to a boxing or MT or MMA gym?
That's where I roam these days, to learn new things, but also to work on the things that I like and have retained from the other realisticly.

This guy got me so fired up I was about to ask for his hight and weight and consider hoping on a plane to deliver a beating and eat some turkey with my family. I got to be nuts. That's remnants from my not-too-distant past. I seriously have my eye on the prize: training five days a week, running three to four days a week... long runs. With hills and sprints.... surfing. No way an uncompetitive fighter of relative size is going to hang with me. No, no, no, no way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I seriously have my eye on the prize: training five days a week, running three to four days a week... long runs. With hills and sprints.... surfing. No way an uncompetitive fighter of relative size is going to hang with me. No, no, no, no way.

Blanket statements Ray...they don't do anyone any favours.

[Ray Pina]

True. You're right.

[bawang]

u sound like one of those people from bullshido.net
i do get ur view tho hardly any people train these days, and it sucks to have ur dreams and fantasy and expectations destroyed, i almost quit kung fu a few years ago
its ok tho, theres no reason western people really have to stick with kung fu,nothing wrong with that just fight good and be good person maybe one day u change ur mind

i dont get how u say good things about kung fu then next sentence u say its complete sh1t though thats confusing

[Ray Pina]

Man, what's with this board?

I haven't had my dreams and fantasies destroyed. I learned some cool things from Kung Fu and it was time for a change... have different goals right now. My life is changing and expanding. I'm enjoying it. I'm going with the flow.

[bawang]

i was talking about me
stop being such a negative nancy lol

[Ray Pina]

i dont get how u say good things about kung fu then next sentence u say its complete sh1t though thats confusing

I'm sorry. Maybe my reading comprehension is off.