worlds within worlds.

[uki]

i found this to be a highly rewarding experience to finally see a manifestation of an internal vision... the beauty of nature knows no limits... enjoy.

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/

[uki]

genetic engineering has been around for thousands of years... well before the chinese even walked out of the mists of time...:p

[CLFLPstudent]

Earth = 12.76 x 10+6 = 12,760,000 meters wide
(12.76 million meters)

Plant Cell = 12.76 x 10-6 = 0.00001276 meters wide
(12.76 millionths of a meter)



Microcosm and macrocosm. Nature is beautiful. Once again science confirms Taoism.

Is this true of every plant cell? Or is it a generalization? Something estimated to make it look interesting? Honest question, I have no idea about plant cells, but I don't think that all plant cells are the same size.

-David

[Mr Punch]

Plant Cell = 12.76 x 10-6 = 0.00001276 meters wide
(12.76 millionths of a meter)Very cosmic. What kind of cell from what plant?

[taai gihk yahn]

Earth = 12.76 x 10+6 = 12,760,000 meters wide
(12.76 million meters); Plant Cell = 12.76 x 10-6 = 0.00001276 meters wide
(12.76 millionths of a meter)
so basically, of the multitude of cells out there, it happens that one of them (and you don't even state which one) has a diameter that is an order of magnitude 12 times smaller than the diameter of the earth, making for an inverse symmetry in terms of the "6" power; so what? how about all the ones that don't have that relationship? it illustrates nothing beyond that if you look at a large enough sample (the diameters of different things), eventually you will find some of them that are the same or that appear to form some sort of symmetrical relationship;
also, that symmetry exists when you use metric system; if you don't use metric, the symmetry no longer exists for these two measurements (but probably would for other items)


Microcosm and macrocosm.
nothing revelatory about that, it's been observed in multiple cultures since people started noticing the world around them in a relatively objective sense; the "problem" is that our brain functions based on the principle of comparative thinking, meaning that we consider important things that look / seem alike as opposed to things that don't; that's why everyone loves Kapra's book - because he points out the similarities to the exclusion of the disparities


Nature is beautiful.
I agree; so does Theodor Schwenk (http://books.google.com/books?id=JRrmD8P1AckC&pg=PT87&lpg=PT87&dq=Schwenk+chaotic&source=web&ots=G_iszpbBvN&sig=vsrDX_S483ZFme7ELGeAVfsHT2Q&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPP1,M1)


Once again science confirms Taoism.
no it doesn't; first off, what kind of Taoism? Taoism spans the gamut from shamanic animistic practices to the philosophical Taosim of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to the 500+ people sexual rites to the highly ritualized "religious" forms that probably have more in common with Confucious mechanisms than anything else; second, if you are talking about Taoist observations of how things "work" in nature, sure, there are going to be correlations, because the world is the world and so even when described from relatively different cultural perspectives, perspectives, we have the same sensory systems that the "ancient" Chinese did; as such, the ways in which we will synthesize information will be in context of that observational apparatus, meaning that there will be similarities across cultures and across time, because we are describing the same things with the same innate perceptual apparatus;
the whole idea of modern science "proving" that some Taoist 1,000 years ago saw what he saw and understood the way it functionally operated has no impact on either system inherently, beyond demonstrating that our biology in certain cases supersedes specific cultural influences; don't forget, that a large amount of what Taoists saw and postulated have been "disproved" by biomedical model as well; but again, we like to focus on similarities as opposed to discrepancies, probably because our minds like to function under the internal construct of continuity; otherwise, TCM had no idea of what a hormone was or how it functioned, regardless of any metaphorical constructs they derived that described functions in the body observable from a macro level that were later discovered to be mediated by hormone secretion)


Doing TCM research I find everyday that the Chinese were figuring things out about hormone replacement therapy, well in advance of todays allopathic medicine.
yes, but they weren't thinking about it as hormone replacement therapy - they were simply acting in accordance to what their empirical macro-observational skills told them (as opposed to the bio-medical model, which employs empirical macro- and micro-observational skills); also, the implication that TCM somehow trumps the bio-medical model because they happened to treat similar issues successfully 1,000 years earlier makes no sense: traditional medical practice in all pre-industrial societies relied on observation and correlation on the macro level; as such, certain things (herbs, physical manipulations) were observed to ameliorate certain conditions; and some cultures were able to construct theoretical superstructures around these observations in order to try to derive some sort of capacity for diagnosis and, more importantly, prognosis; TCM (or rather, its precursors) hung its hat on Taoist "technology", because it proved reasonably reliable, in the estimation of those people using it; so if a post-menopausal woman took a certain herb according to her TCM profile and her symptoms improved, and if you analyze the chemical constituents of that plant, and you find something similar to estrogen, well, there's your hormone replacement therapy;


They were doing this around the same time the Vikings were getting started in Europe.www.imperialtao.com
so what? what about Persian or Indian medicine? I remember having read somewhere that some consider the 13th century to have been the apogee of Chinese medical practice - that's not that long ago...plenty of time for it to have been substantially influenced by other earlier approaches...

let's face it, if TCM was so vastly superior, then it would be the standard of care around the world today (sorry, nothing to do with drug-company conspiracies); as it stands, when you look critically at the available research (e.g. - Cochrane (http://www.cochrane.org/index.htm) meta-analysis studies), there is little evidence to substantiate the use of TCM, either in contrast to so-called "allopathic" approach, or on its own merits;

[Mr Punch]

Is this true of every plant cell? Or is it a generalization? Something estimated to make it look interesting? Honest question, I have no idea about plant cells, but I don't think that all plant cells are the same size.

-DavidNo. Yes. That's it. And no, you're correct, they're not. We cross posted!


so basically, of the multitude of cells out there... blah-blah, hablablahI said all that...


Very cosmic. What kind of cell from what plant?You are with the multitude, I am at one. :D Talk much? :p

[SimonM]

so basically, of the multitude of cells out there, it happens that one of them (and you don't even state which one) has a diameter that is an order of magnitude 12 times smaller than the diameter of the earth, making for an inverse symmetry in terms of the "6" power; so what? how about all the ones that don't have that relationship? it illustrates nothing beyond that if you look at a large enough sample (the diameters of different things), eventually you will find some of them that are the same or that appear to form some sort of symmetrical relationship;

<snip>

let's face it, if TCM was so vastly superior, then it would be the standard of care around the world today (sorry, nothing to do with drug-company conspiracies); as it stands, when you look critically at the available research (e.g. - Cochrane (http://www.cochrane.org/index.htm) meta-analysis studies), there is little evidence to substantiate the use of TCM, either in contrast to so-called "allopathic" approach, or on its own merits;

I was thinking for a moment of saying "yes you are right" to every single point in turn... but that would be a bit of an extreme response and rather irritating and so I will just keep these two core points. Thank you for a rational post in this thread.

[Becca]

Rather than get lost in the great debates of the worl such as what Toaism really is and how a very cool web site is really a consperaciy to reduse our vocabulary.....


That was a very cool wen site, Uki; thanks for sharring. I'm going to show it to my kids to help them get a grasp on just how big the univers is. Maybe they'll grow up realizing that there is, indead, room for other people to have thier own beliefs and opinions. :)

[TenTigers]

you might want to consider spending time having your kids teach you to spell, instead.

[Becca]

you might want to consider spending time having your kids teach you to spell, instead.
My spelling is fine when I take the time to correct it as I go. This forum is not usually worth the time. I'm guessing you don't think it's worth the time to properly punctuate, either?

[SimonM]

Available research? What exactly does that mean to a PT? Your newsletter? Try some Ivy leage medical journals about efficacy of Chinese Medicine. Do you read Chinese or Japanese? There is plenty of research on it, my job consists of compiling it.

There have been books written about the failure of alternative medicine (particularly acupuncture) to perform in double-blind tests. Give me a few days to track down the titles.

Becca, your point is well taken. However the simpsons still did the same thing as that website only better. ;)

[TenTigers]

I punctuate quite fine, thank you.
And my kicktuates are pretty strong, as well.

hmmph! I know fancy words, too!
I been to skool!:p

[David Jamieson]

If TCM was wholly valid, i think it wouldn't be such a non-starter for the most part and would leave the realm of "alternative".

Where I live, they are looking at licensing it so as to get rid of the huge amount of quacks that are out there higgledy piggledy, happily sticking pins in people and feeding them herbs they have no idea how they work or what they do.

Not slagging the whole shebang, just saying that it is not properly implemented in western societies and there are a lot of quacks who hold it back from getting real cred.

[SimonM]

in Acupuncuture, you can't do placebo control on humans

This is actually untrue.

There have been placebo control tests done by inserting needles into non-acupuncture points as a control group.

They were generally inconclusive.

[taai gihk yahn]

"there is little evidence to substantiate the use of TCM, either in contrast to so-called "allopathic" approach, or on its own merits;"

You were going logical for a while on the metric system and the plant dimensions and had some good points, when you mentioned TCM, you took a huge left turn away from logic.

First off western medicine does not equal science. Science is used by medicine, but medicine is a tradition of patient care. If you forgot that, pick up your Merck.


Available research? What exactly does that mean to a PT? Your newsletter? Try some Ivy leage medical journals about efficacy of Chinese Medicine. Do you read Chinese or Japanese? There is plenty of research on it, my job consists of compiling it. Try reading, it may help you much as you cheer for people to walk. The reason why western medicine is so popular is because western society took over the world. Everyone in China wears blue jeans, thats a good hint. Its also great for emergency care. I am not bashing Western medicine, but the fact is that for degenerative diseases it is further behind than TCM in the Shang dynasty. There has been research which would help you in your profession out since the 1970s in Oxford and Harvard journals.

The only people I know who bash TCM are low level doctors or or those who have no clinical abilities. Those higher up in Allopathic medicine are interested and have no inferiority complex about it. They are open to valid research on efficacy. Once you are able to look past terminilogy you can see how similar they are. In fact, myself and a colleague figured out exactly how Taoism and molecular biology fit together. We have the Rosetta Stone between the two and can understand both far better as a result. Stay in the dark. We started a company based on our knowlege and now I have lots of time to train via residual income. Taoist principles for business, medicine and martial arts. Keep cheering for people to walk. I give them effective TCM formulas with over 90% efficacy and teach them qi gong for rehab and they run up stairs within a month. Youve done Taiji for how long and still don't have a clue? Good luck with that.

www.imperialtao.com

wow, I can't believe I missed this post...

so, basically the extent of your ability to back up your opinion on the clinical efficacy of your pet modality is to make vague allusions to "research" that supposedly supports your perspective (without providing any info as to the specific studies), make ridiculous generalizations about how MD's regard TCM, attempt some sort of pop-sociological analysis of western culture's influence in Asia based on fashion trends, talk about how peddling your wares on-line have made you financially independent (in China :rolleyes:), claim that have come up with your own "theory of everything", do some clinical chest-thumping about how you are t3h b3st3st at "curing" your patients and, best of all, throw out derogatory comments about me / my profession when you have no idea about how I work or what I actually do; yeah, that's about par for the sort of lunatic fringe, quack-job types like you I have come across countless times over the last 15 years; although even I was amazed by just how quickly your facade of cultivated equanimity totally drops away when you are challenged, to reveal you as the ill-mannered, boorish and insecure type that you really are (but then, running away to China when you can't cut it in your home country is what you did in the first place, so no big surprise there...)

see? I can make derisive remarks as well; isn't the world such a better place now?

although, I should thank you as the abstracts you list on your website did provide my wife (who, I guess, is one of those low level doctors with no clinical abilities, according to your all-encompassing definition) and I with several minutes of unrestrained laughter; BTW, if you want to go the EBM route and use research studies to prove your point, try to line up a few that actually wouldn't be thrown into the rubbish bin by someone during a review for Cochrane (hmmm, doesn't seem like that's the same as a PT Newsletter to me...)- which, in general, has pretty much this (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab000008.html) to say about research along the lines of acupuncture and this for herbs (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004560.html) efficacy (in a nutshell - studies on TCM coming out of China are notorious for being rife with methodological problems that by and large render them useless); and as I stated earlier, it was a reading of Cochrane reviews that I based my comment of "there is little evidence to substantiate the use of TCM, either in contrast to so-called "allopathic" approach, or on its own merits;" (which you somehow seemed to have conveniently ignored along with the opening qualifying statement of "when you look critically at the available research"); meaning that, regardless of what you may believe or want to believe, and you can say all you want about how they don't get the point, don't understand the full meridian theory, etc.; but remember, you are the one who put up the research studies, meaning that you opened the door to that sort of methodological review; but when the accepted standard of research review comes out with conclusions you don't like, all of a sudden, that approach is not valid, RCT's are no good for assessing this stuff, etc. ; talk about taking a left turn away from logic...

so, good luck with all that...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Intelligent design for the win !!
LOL !

[SimonM]

How many times does ID have to be debunked before it will go away?

Evolution happens. This we know. Conclusively.

The real question is not whether it happens but rather what mechanisms cause it to happen, under what situations does it happen and what factors impact the path which it follows.

And of course there remains the great (non-scientific) philosophical question of why evolution happens.

[Lucas]

And of course there remains the great (non-scientific) philosophical question of why evolution happens.

it happens so that the wimminz kind get better and better to keep us men kindz from destroying the world.

[SimonM]

See I see it more as a response to the natural dynamism of chaotic systems. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

How many times does ID have to be debunked before it will go away?

Evolution happens. This we know. Conclusively.

The real question is not whether it happens but rather what mechanisms cause it to happen, under what situations does it happen and what factors impact the path which it follows.

And of course there remains the great (non-scientific) philosophical question of why evolution happens.

While I was only kidding, I don't see the idea of an intelligence behind the beginning of creation and evolutionary science as opposites, quite the contrary.

[SimonM]

See the thing is that all ID really is, when you boil right down to it, is re-packaged biblical literalism. They couldn't get it into schools in the USA because of the separation of church and state so they called it "intelligent design" and started claiming that it was impossible for life to have originated without the intervention of an outside intelligence because of the complexity therein.

This is not supported by one whit of ACTUAL science. The pseudo-science behind ID has been debunked MULTIPLE times.. and every time they re-package the same bunk and keep trying to ram their religious doggerel down the throats of the public school system.

Remember I've mentioned Turkmenistan and how one of the main problems in the country is that the education system has become dominated by the Ruhnama; the religious musings of the former president-for-life.

Well there is no effective difference between basing a secular education on the Ruhnama and basing it on Biblical literalism. Allowing the thin edge of the religious wedge into the science program of the school system is something that even religious people should fight against as it does NO good for the health of the country.

[taai gihk yahn]

And of course there remains the great (non-scientific) philosophical question of why evolution happens.
what would Sanjuro post pics of otherwise? Amoebas be cool and all, but they don't look much better in a two-piece...

[SimonM]

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. :D

[Lucas]

I keep asking everyone how they are today as I see them. Its raining pretty good here today.

All the women keep telling me how wet they are. Pretty funny.

[SimonM]

Head
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.



Desk

[Lucas]

hehe. the last woman yelled it at me with some really passion. I was cracking up inside because it was right after i posted that.

she goes

"I AM SO WET"

[taai gihk yahn]

www.lmmedcorp.com
The study you allude to in regard to herbs is an over childrens cough medicine in granules and a cough syrup. Its not suprise that its not good for acute bronchitis.
you really didn't read my post or that review very thoroughly at all, did you?


Believe it or not, there are thousands of different medications that come out of Chinese medicine or are based on it. Not all of them are good.
obviously not...


Yet, Fufangdan shen's affect in heart disease is not debated and it is used in hospital throughout Asia. Japanese Allopathic hospitals also use Kampo due to its evidence based.
where's the published evidence for any of this?


Showing one study on cough syrup and childrens granules does not negate Chinese Medicine.
are you really that thick to believe that I think it does?


Instead of saying that all Chinese research is bad, why not do your own research. Not all American research is good. You have to know where to look.
oh please - no where did I state that ALL Chinese research is bad, no where did I state that ALL American research is good, and as far as doing my own or knowing where to look for the "good" research, that is exactly what Cochrane review is all about: it's a clearinghouse wherein the extant research is evaluated for methodological design and data / conclusions reviewed for accuracy; or is that news to you?

anyway, I see that you are back to your original measured persona; evidently that comprises not even being gracious enough to admit that you acted in a totally impolite and non-collegial manner for absolutely no reason; nice going...

BTW, you wouldn't happen to be Judo Katana Master Andy, would you?

[David Jamieson]

I frankly can't be bothered to go back and read your old posts. Right now I am in Nairobi with a pharmaceutical company and have interested parties in how TCM herbs may be able to help with AIDS.

How can tcm herbs help aids? What is the current research offerings on that?
Any promising data?

[sanjuro_ronin]

what would Sanjuro post pics of otherwise? Amoebas be cool and all, but they don't look much better in a two-piece...

Evolution and Intelligent design, in perfect harmony:

[taai gihk yahn]

I frankly can't be bothered to go back and read your old posts.
seeing as you couldn't seem to be bothered to actually read them correctly the first time around, why start now?


Right now I am in Nairobi with a pharmaceutical company and have interested parties in how TCM herbs may be able to help with AIDS.
I guess when people ignore sound and simple public health policies in the first place and believe that if you have intercourse w/a virgin your AIDS will magically go away, they'll try just about anything...


The irony is that if you live in Canada you may already be using our products which are marketed differently by different companies.
and if I don't live in Canada, what literary device would you be misapplying then?

[taai gihk yahn]

Evolution and Intelligent design, in perfect harmony:

may the lobes of your ears be nibbled by 27 virgin ninjettes...

[sanjuro_ronin]

may the lobes of your ears be nibbled by 27 virgin ninjettes...

I like the way you think.

[SimonM]

I guess when people ignore sound and simple public health policies in the first place and believe that if you have intercourse w/a virgin your AIDS will magically go away, they'll try just about anything...


Don't forget Albino hair.

Although, to be fair, part of the reason Africa is so desperate is because pharmaceutical companies charge more for a week's worth of HIV control medicine than most people make in a year in Africa.