So...you don't need MA experience..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Luke Goss, the actor that played the BAD GUY in Blade 2 and Prince Nuada in Hell boy 2 has NO MA background !!
:eek:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0807/08/gosswalton.htm



Question: Don't you have a martial arts background?

Goss: No. Blade II was a huge help for me. We did 10 weeks of training and then a couple of other movies after that, and it's an asset that you've done a lot of fight training. You acquire an ability and makes sense to kind of encourage it any time you can.

[SimonM]

Not surprised. The Nuada stuff was ok...

But the blade 2 fights... not at all impressive.

And think about Keanu Reeve's martial arts background... and yet... the matrix.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not surprised. The Nuada stuff was ok...

But the blade 2 fights... not at all impressive.

And think about Keanu Reeve's martial arts background... and yet... the matrix.

Dude, the guy had NO MA experience.

[Lucas]

havnt seen Nuada but i own blade 2. (donnie yen is in it, briefly, but he plays a japanese well....as long as hes a mute )

in that one his character doesnt come off as any sort of martial artists, but a berzerker with a couple of power house attacks.

a good example is when blade is using his awesome sword, yet dude rips a piece of rebarb out of the ground with a huge chunk of concrete still on it and starts cavemanning it like a wild man.

is nuada a MA movie?

[SimonM]

Nuada is the badguy in Hellboy II.
(The alternate way of looking at it is that Nuada is the goodguy in Hellboy II in that his grievance is legitimate and he starts off as the wronged party. He's still a psycho though.)

And IIRC Keanu Reeves, Laurence Fishbourne and Carrie Ann Moss had no MA background. In fact I think I remember reading about an interview with Yuen Wuping complaining about it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nuada is the badguy in Hellboy II.
(The alternate way of looking at it is that Nuada is the goodguy in Hellboy II in that his grievance is legitimate and he starts off as the wronged party. He's still a psycho though.)

And IIRC Keanu Reeves, Laurence Fishbourne and Carrie Ann Moss had no MA background. In fact I think I remember reading about an interview with Yuen Wuping complaining about it...

And they sucked the bag.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jason Statham had no prior MA skill either, did he?
Or even Daniel Craig, correct?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In Hellboy 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAOLxTEfQlk

Blade 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPNt_fDnDC0

[uki]

hey don't forget buffy the vampire slayer...

[SimonM]

Sarah Michelle Gellar used a stunt double for martial arts scenes so it doesn't really count.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the thing though, and why I created this thread, how many times do we hear that it takes YEARS to be proficient in a MA?
How its all about the years and years of training.
Then some cites a sport combat art and how they are able to use their skills or have "competent" skills in, some cases, months.
Of course that is typically countered by the, "their skill level is lacking and they don't LOOK like they are doing a MA".
Well, these guys LOOK like they are doing a MA, they LOOK like they are trained, in some case they look better than guys that have been doing it for years, and they only have half a dozen months of training.
:eek:

[SimonM]

SR, a secret:

when I was in high school I did writer's craft. One of our assignments was to make a short film. So some buddies of mine and I went out into the bush with a video camera, a flat of iced tea, a 26er of vodka and made a martial arts movie.

We had, between the four of us, a green belt in tae kwon do and my grab-bag of (mainly) wrestling and kickboxing-like fighting.

The final product - made by drunk high school students (of legal drinking age) - for a budget of less than $30 didn't look half bad. With careful use of camera angles and some post-production editing even the guys with absolutely no martial arts background looked like they could fight.

Now, imagine sober professionals with the time and money to do it right...

Not saying you are wrong.

Just saying - that's the "magic" of hollywood.

[Ronin22]

Here is the thing though, and why I created this thread, how many times do we hear that it takes YEARS to be proficient in a MA?
How its all about the years and years of training.
Then some cites a sport combat art and how they are able to use their skills or have "competent" skills in, some cases, months.
Of course that is typically countered by the, "their skill level is lacking and they don't LOOK like they are doing a MA".
Well, these guys LOOK like they are doing a MA, they LOOK like they are trained, in some case they look better than guys that have been doing it for years, and they only have half a dozen months of training.
:eek:

Here's my two cents

They might look better because they have the time to train with a dedicated trainer for hours and hours a day plus, how many techniques are they really learning, they are basically practicing a kata over and over a again that has limited moves. When you have hours to practice as opposed to the average MA who trains, what twice a week, it makes a difference. Then there's the whole hollywood thing where fights could be made to look better using smart editing, lighting, vfx, etc.



Peace

[Lucas]

Jason Statham had no prior MA skill either, did he?
Or even Daniel Craig, correct?

Statham had previous MA experience from years and years ago. i watched an interview right after the first transporter was made and he was talking about what it was like to start practicing again and how he was able to pick up the flexability and movements kind of quick.

[doug maverick]

well in that respect so did laurence fishburne who use to take kung fu as a teen.i've seen people with years and years of ma experience suck ass atg screen fighting, and i've seen virtual novices look like masters, its all about being a performer knowing how to "act" the fight, luke goss has that ability in spades and i'm sure he has done some ma training inbetween blade2 and hellboy2.

[冠木侍]

Doug's got the right idea. It's not the MA experience that makes a good movie but sometimes it does.

During an interview, someone asked Keanu if he would be able to defend himself in a real life situation with the stuff that he learned from the first Matrix film. He simpl replied 'No.'

Although I consider that movie revolutionary, the fight scenes in the first one didn't really strike me as action packed. I actually liked the second one better.

Fight choreography requires knowledge about martial arts in order utilize the actors and to make it flow and look good for the camera. Donnie Yen had made a distinction in an interview once. He said something like if a person wants to really learn martial arts, they should join a school. Making movies is something different. (Heavily paraphrased of course).


Like Doug said, if you have actors that can perform well and act the fight, then the resulting product will look good.

[doug maverick]

i'm just sayin it from experience. if you really want to know who makes the best screen fighters........freestyle dancers, like those dudes you see on americas best dance crew. with a little training on fight knowledge those guys look amazing add to that everything they learned from there hip hop/street/bboy dancing and u gotta a bonafide screen fighter. also ballet dancers but they need at least a month to retrain some of the movements that they learned in ballet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys do understand my point though, right?

[golgo]

You guys do understand my point though, right?

Yeah, but I think the difference is level of dedication and the time availability. If someone were paying me to learn MA 8 hours a day, I think I would get pretty good rather quickly.

I think it is similar to physical training - people who have full time jobs, families, etc. try to shape their bodies to some ideal - like Brad Pitt, Daniel Craig, Jack Black ;) or whoever. These actors have teams of people dedicated to getting them ready for a movie. They have probably a dozen or so Wire Fu guys preparing them for a particular movie.

Now lets take that to the non-movie world. If you had a dozen MA masters at your disposal training with you 8 hours a day, dedicated ONLY to you or a few others... don't you think your learning curve would be accelerated as well?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, but I think the difference is level of dedication and the time availability. If someone were paying me to learn MA 8 hours a day, I think I would get pretty good rather quickly.

I think it is similar to physical training - people who have full time jobs, families, etc. try to shape their bodies to some ideal - like Brad Pitt, Daniel Craig, Jack Black ;) or whoever. These actors have teams of people dedicated to getting them ready for a movie. They have probably a dozen or so Wire Fu guys preparing them for a particular movie.

Now lets take that to the non-movie world. If you had a dozen MA masters at your disposal training with you 8 hours a day, dedicated ONLY to you or a few others... don't you think your learning curve would be accelerated as well?

Actually, they typically have only one MA coach and one trainer and while I agree that having 8 hours to train a day would certainly shorten the learning curve, I think its safe to say that it shouldn't take people YEARS to be able to functionally do their chosen MA, when other can do it in far less time.
Also, don't forget that I am not referring to the stunts, which are probably done by stunt men anyways, I am, typically refering to how they LOOK doing standard MA moves.

[golgo]

Actually, they typically have only one MA coach and one trainer and while I agree that having 8 hours to train a day would certainly shorten the learning curve, I think its safe to say that it shouldn't take people YEARS to be able to functionally do their chosen MA, when other can do it in far less time.
Also, don't forget that I am not referring to the stunts, which are probably done by stunt men anyways, I am, typically refering to how they LOOK doing standard MA moves.

Well, considering the fact that I am just starting my MA journey at the age of 30, I hope it doesn't take me years to be functional either. It sounds like from those with a lot of experience in MA that a lot of schools teach this philosophy? I don't think I would have chosen my school if my Sifu told me it would take years before I would be able to effectively use what he was teaching me. I just don't have that kind of time :(

It seems like every day that passes I am am becoming more convinced that I chose the right type of school for me. Which is really more a matter of luck really (and some good advice), since I had no idea what I was doing.

[SimonM]

Although I consider that movie revolutionary, the fight scenes in the first one didn't really strike me as action packed. I actually liked the second one better.


But.....

But.....

Burly Brawl...

The horrible memories...

Can't... get.... them... out....

Unclean, UNCLEAN!!!!!

Simonm is escorted off by the kind men in white coats.

[TenTigers]

I believe J-Lo said she spent 8 months with a personal coach, several hours a day to be able to pull off believable choreographed fight scenes.
Big difference between that, and actual fighting skill.

That being said,
you can learn a heckuva lot in three months of Muay Thai, or Boxing.

it also depends on the individual's natural abilities, instincts and most importantly, desire.

[SimonM]

What movie did Jennifer Lopez have coreographed fight scenes in?

(I am of the opinion that the worst thing Jennifer Lopez ever did was transition from film to pop music. She actually was pretty good in some of her movies.)

[golgo]

What movie did Jennifer Lopez have coreographed fight scenes in?

(I am of the opinion that the worst thing Jennifer Lopez ever did was transition from film to pop music. She actually was pretty good in some of her movies.)

Maybe in The Cell?

[TenTigers]

the movie is called, "Enough" about a battered wife, who fights back



training scenes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlWAJAYrzuw

this is the only clip I could find with the fight scenes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgoaJdZ-TAQ&feature=related

[SimonM]

Maybe in The Cell?

No. The cell was very much a walk-and-talk movie for her.

Honestly I liked it. Many did not.

Fave Jennifer Lopez movie remains U-Turn. Least-fave: Gigli.

Famous Players Cinema should refund me for those lost minutes of my life.

[GeneChing]

Luke Goss, the actor that played the BAD GUY in Blade 2 and Prince Nuada in Hell boy 2 has NO MA background !!
:eek:


Question: Don't you have a martial arts background?

Goss: No. Blade II was a huge help for me. We did 10 weeks of training and then a couple of other movies after that, and it's an asset that you've done a lot of fight training. You acquire an ability and makes sense to kind of encourage it any time you can.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0807/08/gosswalton.htm

Luke Goss on DEATH RACE 3: INFERNO (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1080) by Gene Ching :cool:

[Frost]

Old thread but since gene bumped it…..Goss and his twin were singers and dancers in their teens, I still have nightmares over their big UK hits, I owe you nothing anyone? Statham was an international level diver, so both these guys are used to physical stuff and picking up new moves and athletically gifted, its probably easier to choreograph someone totally new to MA who has a good background in physical arts than it is someone who is already trained and bias in how they move

[sanjuro_ronin]

Old thread but since gene bumped it…..Goss and his twin were singers and dancers in their teens, I still have nightmares over their big UK hits, I owe you nothing anyone? Statham was an international level diver, so both these guys are used to physical stuff and picking up new moves and athletically gifted, its probably easier to choreograph someone totally new to MA who has a good background in physical arts than it is someone who is already trained and bias in how they move

Yep, add to that that movie fighting is NOT real fighting and that,many times, real fighters have to go against their training to look good in the movies.

[Frost]

Yep, add to that that movie fighting is NOT real fighting and that,many times, real fighters have to go against their training to look good in the movies.

yep i remember kickboxer, van damme looked way better than the guy playing his brother who was an actual thai fighter lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

yep i remember kickboxer, van damme looked way better than the guy playing his brother who was an actual thai fighter lol

Dennis Alexio IIRC.

[Frost]

Dennis Alexio IIRC.

a fairly good fighter then lol :o

[sanjuro_ronin]

a fairly good fighter then lol :o

Light HW champion in full contact karate right? not sure if he ever did MT though...

[Jimbo]

There are many examples of excellent known fighters or MAists in real life who didn't really look good in the movies:
Joe Lewis
Bill Wallace
Saskia Van Rijswijk
Don Wilson
Steve Sanders
Etc.

There were also some who, with the right choreography, looked very good in the movies:
Benny Urquidez
Richard Norton
Pete Cunningham
Cung Le

Louis Neglia could arguably have been said to have looked good, or at least decent, in Sun Dragon, his only movie appearance, AFAIK. Bob Wall didn't appear exceptional move-wise, but he had an outstanding ability to react/respond to Bruce Lee's strikes/kicks and play his foil.

It's like anything; film fighting is a skill that some have the talent for and others don't. Being a champion fighter or not has little to do with it. It's all about selling it, and the ability to project enough charisma onscreen. Also, the ability to follow a good choreographer's directions. People who think that because they're great fighters that that will automatically translate onto the screen are usually in for a rude awakening.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember Jaguar lives with Lewis and the Force of One with Wallace ( VS Norris of course).
Don't recall Sanders and never liked Wilson.
IMO, one of the most memorable fights was Benny and Cusak in Gross Pointe Blank.

[GeneChing]

IMO, one of the most memorable fights was Benny and Cusak in Gross Pointe Blank. I know, right? And Cusack was the good guy. Which just goes to show that movies are movies, obviously.

I did the Goss interview as part of a promotion for Death Race 3 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65116). Initially, the rep offered an interview with Danny Trejo, which I was more into as I like his work and he was a former boxer. To be perfectly honest, I didn't know Goss from Adam, so after the interview was switched, I was very amused to find this old thread of yours, s_r. The experience was fun as Goss liked my Kruger reference, and it gave me an excuse to indulge in Death Race 2000 again, which is a true Corman masterpiece.

But enough back story - back on topic. Those of us who have been involved in the filmmaking process know what a challenge it is to make magic. Movie magic is just that - so many things must come together. A great movie fight scene need not be done by great fighters. This is just one reason why we have yet to see a great MMA flick. A great movie fight scene is made by great moviemakers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know, right? And Cusak was the good guy. Which just goes to show that movies are movies, obviously.

I did the Goss interview as part of a promotion for Death Race 3 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65116). Initially, the rep offered an interview with Danny Trejo, which I was more into as I like his work and he was a former boxer. To be perfectly honest, I didn't know Goss from Adam, so after the interview was switched, I was very amused to find this old thread of yours, s_r. The experience was fun as Goss liked my Kruger reference, and it gave me an excuse to indulge in Death Race 2000 again, which is a true Corman masterpiece.

But enough back story - back on topic. Those of us who have been involved in the filmmaking process know what a challenge it is to make magic. Movie magic is just that - so many things must come together. A great movie fight scene need not be done by great fighters. This is just one reason why we have yet to see a great MMA flick. A great movie fight scene is made by great moviemakers.

Look at the Bourne movies or the latest Bond ones or the Taken series.
Take great actors and great choreographers and you get great action/fight scenes.

As long as the choreographer knows what looks good, what sells and the strength and weaknesses of his actors, they fights will be good.

Speaking of which I am NOT a big fan of the whole "Keysi" methods that Hollywood is starting to do more ( First it was the Batman trilogy and now Jack Reacher).

[Jimbo]

Let's not forget Benny's fights with Jackie Chan, too.

Steve Sanders had a fight scene with Ho Chung-tao (Bruce Li) in Dynamo.

I forgot to mention Billy Chow as a former WKA kickboxer who made a very good transition into movies.

Casting non-actor fighters in movies, especially in roles requiring speaking or any character development, is akin to having a UFC program featuring non-fighter actors in the fights. Before I became involved in acting myself, I had only the vaguest inkling of the process. In any film, TV show or commercial, anyone who has even a small speaking role has to make it through a casting process that often/usually means getting past around 300 other actors vying for it. The odds are heavily against your typical unknown actor, many of whom are quite good.

Although you can still see straight-to-DVD movies starring UFC fighters, IMO, the days of movies being made around non-actor fighters are mostly over...remember the '90s and all the movies starring former full-contact karate/kickboxers in the $2 bin?

[GeneChing]

Look at the Bourne movies or the latest Bond ones or the Taken series.
I agree, which is one reason why I review so many action films that are only peripherally related to martial arts (also because I like going to screeners and the cross-over is crucial for a niche brand like us). But I would say that these stand outside the martial arts genre. That's an important distinction. It's like a thriller can have a good scary scene, but you wouldn't classify it as a horror flick.


akin to having a UFC program featuring non-fighter actors in the fights. I'd actually watch that. You'd probably learn more about street fighting than with UFC. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree, which is one reason why I review so many action films that are only peripherally related to martial arts (also because I like going to screeners and the cross-over is crucial for a niche brand like us). But I would say that these stand outside the martial arts genre. That's an important distinction. It's like a thriller can have a good scary scene, but you wouldn't classify it as a horror flick.

I'd actually watch that. You'd probably learn more about street fighting than with UFC. :p

Within the MA genre and outside "period pieces" do we even have a MA genre anymore?

[GeneChing]

If anything, the martial arts genre has expanded. Our past definition was fairly narrow, but now it's grown to include all sorts of films - kid's films, period films, fantasy films, etc. It's also an international genre now; where in the past it was just Asia and Hollywood, now there are plenty of European entries. Perhaps, if you define the martial arts genre on the past, on that old narrow definition, you could say that its gone, but that's the past. There's still martial arts sections in netflix and in DVD stores (used DVDs mostly nowadays but the point stands) so the genre is as vital as ever, perhaps even more so.

[Jimbo]

I'd actually watch that. You'd probably learn more about street fighting than with UFC. :p

Maybe, but it would **** off most people, especially the fighters. They'd be saying, 'what dues have they paid to be fighting in the octagon?' Similar to what many actors would think of MA non-actors given featured roles.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Dennis Alexio was GREAT in that kickboxer movie. He took those knees like a champ. Worthy of repeat viewing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLCziBv7q5g




mickey

[mawali]

Speaking of which I am NOT a big fan of the whole "Keysi" methods that Hollywood is starting to do more ( First it was the Batman trilogy and now Jack Reacher).

KFM (conceptually) is /approximates actual strategy for a few executive protection training programmes. This is not to say MA is not important or necessary but it fits the scenrios that are often encountered out there.
KFM does happen to choreograph better than usual MA but it is as close to CQC (getting close and personal as deteremind by your opponent).