Kuen - Do - Pai

[Phil Redmond]

What makes a style a Kuen, Do, or Pai??

[TenTigers]

the founder, promoter, copywriter...

[SPJ]

Classification or categorization is usually after the effect.

meaning many and many years later, with many and many students or people doing the same group of things.

such as Jiang rong qiao ba gua with a lot of xing yi in them.

2 generations of the students later

they are called xing yi ba gua or jiang -> zhang zhao dong->--

the other example

Liang zhen pu (last disciple of Dong hai chuan)-> Li zi ming-> zhang quan liang

they are called liang style ba gua etc.

--

:)

[David Jamieson]

What makes a style a Kuen, Do, or Pai??

kuen=fist methods
do= way or system
pai= filial in nature, a family style

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Certain ones are interchangeable to a degree.

You can call Hung style;

Hung Kuyhn (Hung Fist)
or
Hung Ga (Hung Family)

However today, most people use Hung Kuyhn, when they are referring to non-Wong Fei Hung lineages of the Hung Style. (I believe most do) and Hung Ga when they are referring to the WFH lineage.

You could say Lama Kuyhn, but most say Pai.

You could say Choy Lay Fut Kuyhn, but you would not say Choy Lay Fut Pai (at least, no one I know uses that).

The five family styles are almost always referred to with "GA" only, Hung*, Mok, Choy, Lay and Lau. *See Hung Kuyhn above

I don't know of any older Chinese styles that use "Do" or way. I could be wrong, but I always link that to Jeet Kuyhn Do, and Jap/Korean styles i.e., Tang Soo Do (originally Chinese Hand Way (until the Government was like, "WTF"? Change that to Tae Kwon Do immediatly! - Foot Fist Way -Yes, much better - NO CHINESE HERE! KI-HOP!)

[lkfmdc]

Real Chinese systems don't use "do"....

Really, you don't have "either/or"

The classical name for Lama is

"La Ma Pai Kuen Suet"

Most just say "La Ma Pai"

"Hung Ga Kuen Suet"

Some say "Hung ga" others say "hung Kuen"

[MasterKiller]

What is "Suet"?

And what, generally, is the differnece between a Pai and a Men?

[David Jamieson]

What is "Suet"?

And what, generally, is the differnece between a Pai and a Men?

it's the fat that builds up around your kidneys. :p

pai= clan/family
men="gate", "door" or more often meaning "society"

[MasterKiller]

it's the fat that builds up around your kidneys. :p

pai= clan/family
men="gate", "door" or more often meaning "society"

Men can also mean "sect" though, right? So what's the difference between that and a clan?

[David Jamieson]

sect would denote some sort of religious affiliation.

[SimonM]

Less familial. AFAIK "Men" does not donate a religious affiliation per-say. IIRC "Men" denotes a more open school... I could be wrong.

[CFT]

AKAIK, "men/mun/moon" seems to be used interchangeably with "pai". In fact there is a compound term of "mun pai". My knowledge is not very broad but I don't think there are many "mun" are there? I've heard of "Yau Gung Mun", and at a push I would count Hung Mun though I consider it more a political/cultural society.

If pushed for a definition I would say that a "pai" has a martial arts curriculum that promotes a particular martial art/style, a certain degree of standardization and a mandate to continue their traditions.

How is that different to a "mun"? I think that the "mun" has no particular agenda to promote a given art. It could be a conglomeration of different styles. I am thinking of something like the "Chin Woo" (Jing Mo) society founded by Huo Yuanjia (Fok Yuen Gap).

I seem to remember reading some newspaper articles that even refer to Wing Chun as a "pai" (in Yip Man's time). It might have been imprecise use of the term since reporters may not care about the various distinctions.

[SPJ]

men is actually bigger than pai.

men would be the door or school etc.

pai is a division of men.

but sometimes they are used to mean the same things.

:)

[CFT]

So what "men" would Shaolin pai or Wudang pai belong to?

I think they are actually very different things. The pai is the abstract and the men is the physical instance of the pai. When people enter a school/pai/sect etc. to study, we say "ru men" ("yap mun", enter the door). Students are thus "men sheng" ("mun saang").

[SPJ]

In a scholarly text, men is bigger.

Here is the order of classification, Jie Men Gang Mu Ke Shu Zhong.

Jie would be the kingdom, field such as heaven, earth, people and animal kingdom etc.

Men would be the next order of classification.

Shao lin men is also commonly used.

the order of shaolin etc.

Pai is used to divide.

If we refer to CMA, there are this shaolin pai and wu dang pai of MA etc.

:)

[taai gihk yahn]

I am the last surviving master of Kuen Do Ga Men Pai...

[SPJ]

and I am the 3rd gen of Jin Wu Men. not jin wu pai.

the founding father is huo yuan jia.

edit:

not true.

:D

[lkfmdc]

you are forgetting that Chinese like to shorten and apprviate

Men Pai (Myuhn Pai) just becomes Men or Pai... linguistically speaking, how can a men (a door) be bigger than a pai (a society or sect)?

Hung Ga Kuen Suet becoms either hung ga or hung kuen

(suet = shu btw)

I've said it before, but the proliferation of "hung kuen" branches owes at least in part to

"red pole's fighting technqiues"

"hung gwun kuen faat"

being shortened to

"hung kuen"

[SPJ]

agreed that men and pai are used together to mean the same thing.

however;

in Japan, such as karate do or karate men.

there are so and so ryu or liu (pai).

so and so ryu or liu (pai).

men pai is bigger than liu pai then.

just having fun with words.

:D

[ngokfei]

so for example:

Shaolin Temple aka Shaolin Men Pai (shaolin men/shaolin pai)

inside the temple: styles: Shaolin Liu He Quan (Siu Lam Lok Hop Kuen), etc.


Would there be a
Shaolin Jia Quan (Siu Lam Gar Kuen) like Hong jia quan (Hung Gar Kuen)?


How about in my styles context. We call it Ying Jow Pai.
100 years back it was known as Fan Zi Ying Jow Men/Ying Jow Fan Zi Men

So it could also be called Ying Jow Men = Ying Jow Pai in meaning?

[SimonM]

(suet = shu btw)


Thank you from those of us who can read mandarin pingyin transliteration but not that crazy cantonese transliteration.

[mantis108]

Quan usually refers to the pugilistic category. It is technical in nature

Men or Pai refers to the organization. They can be used interchangeably or separately. When use together as Men Pai, it would mean the entire system, branches and sub styles. Sometime people shorten it to Men or Pai but they usually mean it as the entire system. The difference is that Men tends to be less religious leaning more like a school; while Pai has to do with more of a religious leaning as in a sect.

Technically, Chinese view the system and the people (as least 5 generations) associated with it as an entity. They are inseparable. In other words, it is rather meaningless to talk about a system without knowing the people in Chinese mindset. However, do not confuse this with Heroism. On the other hand, the system and the people are looked upon as two very different matters in the west, which leads to Heroism.

"Do" is a Japanese convention. It is a rather modern thing also. They wanted to make the point that there is a difference between Jitsu (skills/arts) and Do (philosophy/spirituality). the TCMA don't use that convention to name the systems because "Dao" (Do) is inherit within the system. It's redundant to designate any TCMA with the Dao distinction.

Mantis108

[MasterKiller]

Men or Pai refers to the organization. They can be used interchangeably or separately. When use together as Men Pai, it would mean the entire system, branches and sub styles.

Can you elaborate on the usage of Men Pai together? Like, what would be an example of proper Men Pai usage as opposed to just Men?

[mantis108]

Well the simplest example would that "within the Wulin (martial forest), there are many Menpai." Here Men and Pai are of equal status and is meant to be all martial arts organizations.

[Eddie]

Cool topic, nice explanations given.I have a question. We call Forms TaoLu, which basically translates to Way Road. In Chinese, often Dao would refer to a more bigger road (like my office is locate din Jiefang Da Dao) and Lu usually probably refer to a normal road (my house is in zhengqing Lu). Is there a story behind this? Tao Lu?

[TenTigers]

small towns in China were usually just one road with houses and such on either side. A road at that point is a town.

[Eddie]

yeah... good point. Still happen, for example, my son's school is in Chong Ren Lu (Chong ren road), but the whole **** area is called Chong Ren Lu. Unless you tell the taxi driver you want to go to the school, they drop you off anywhere around the area.

[MasterKiller]

Well the simplest example would that "within the Wulin (martial forest), there are many Menpai." Here Men and Pai are of equal status and is meant to be all martial arts organizations.

OK, but I guess I'm just too much gwai lo because it's still a little vague to me. My Da Sigung uses "Men Pai" and "Men" when talking about the style, and it's always confused me. I was told by another guy in the know here that "Men Pai" was never used together.

[mantis108]

well, Menpai used together would be all inclusive. So it's supposed to be vague. It usually means that it is not concerning just your own branch within the system but the whole system. It implies leadership. Men or Pai would not be used as a single word. It is often use with "Ben" (substance or subjectively ours). The word Ben also has the meaning of the original, which implies authenticity. ;) When it is "Ben Men" it means our particular school or branch (usually starts with GGM or GM X).

Tao means a "set" or an theatrical act (ie Tao Zi) . Lu is road referring to the usually straight line back and forth movements of the form. One road of a form is denoted by a turning around move. There are usually 2, 3, 4 up to about 8 roads in a form. So Tao Lu is then to mean whole form.

Mantis108