Help with form please

[gothmantis]

Hello folks.

I'm a new member of this forum and I prefer to just sit and read the messages normally. My name is Mark and I live in England. My lineage is Wong Kam Hung.

I was just wondering if any of you guys could help me with a form I've got hold of, a photocopy from a book actually. My Sifu doesn't know it but had it translated as "One Way to Attack". Since then I've found out that it's called 1st route essential.

My question is, What is the first move? The rest of the form is straight forward and very easy to follow, but as I don't read chinese and the pictures don't follow a clear progression I can't decide what is happening. He seems to move from ready position to a Right Tiger Riding stance, then into a Right Crane stance, and then into a Right Hill Climbing Stance. All the while with fists on hips. Is this a groin kick (jumping or otherwise), or a kick defense move?

Thanks for listening guys. Hope someone can help.

[Ericsepishii]

Gothmantis

I don't know if you'll receive the help you are
looking for. It seems that you're trying to learn this from a copy of the Wong Hon Fun (WHF) book on this set, and those who have learned this in an authentic manner, probably think that this is not the proper way for you to try and learn this form, and therefore won't help you.

Also, you mentioned in your post that your
Sifu - Wong Kam Hung is not familiar with
this set and you didn't mention what style
you are learning / your Sifu teaches.
It maybe that the style you are learning
might be unmatching to the Northern Mantis style.

Although it may seem that some of the techniques
shown in the book are "straight forward" this
is clearly not the case and one should be taught
this from a certified teacher that is connected
to the WHF lineage - especially since you are unable to read / understand the chinese descriptions and you are probably unfamiliar with Northern Mantis terms/techniques.

I believe that there are some certified teachers in the UK that are connected to Sifu Lee Kam Wing and they should have this set in their curriculum, however, this is not a beginner's level set and there might be slight differences as to how the set is played as compared to that of WHF lineage people.

[gothmantis]

Hmmm...

Me thinks I didn't make myself clear.

Okay. I've studied northern seven star praying mantis since 1985 under a sifu of the Wong Kam Hung lineage (studying under Wong Kam Hung himself is a pleasure I've never enjoyed). Unfortunately, I moved away from my sifu several years ago and only get to see him for a couple of weeks in the year, when he puts the errors that have crept into my style over the year and we go over a few new combos, do a little training, etc.

The rest of the moves in the form ARE straight forward to me as I know/practice over a dozen other forms, and I know the chinese characters for a lot of the techniques. I also know the terms and applications of the moves (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't even try to learn from a book). My fault for not giving better details of my history and experience, but I know you can learn a form from a book if you know enough other forms (most techniques in praying mantis are repeated many times throughout the forms in slightly different orders and combinations).

Thanks for taking time to reply anyway, but my request still stands. Information please...

[Ericsepishii]

GothMantis

Thanks for the clarification, however, this only
leads to me to have additional questions.

You say your "Sifu" doesn't know this set???
(re: 1st Essential / Summary).
If this is the case then I have to ask WHY NOT?

The 1st Essential / Summary is just that,
the first of THREE ESSENTIAL / SUMMARY sets
found in the WHF Chu Chi Man / Lee Kam Wing
lineage and any "Sifu" of either of these
Northern ( 7 * ) Praying Mantis systems should
have ALL THREE SETS in their curriculum in order to have gotten the title of "Sifu" for the particular Northern Praying Mantis system that they are teaching.

Could it be that your Sifu has been certified as a Sifu from some other training/style and just has certain mantis sets that he offers/teaches?

In terms of the information you are asking for
I am still hesitant to provide you with this info.
However, I think that their might be videos for sale in the US that may have this set featured.
- You may want to check within an Inside Kung Fu Magazine or visit some other Northern Praying Mantis websites.

Sorry if you think that I am being an *******
for not providing you with the information you
are requesting, however, there is much in the
1st Essential / Summary set that the pictures of the book don't show and trying to learn out of the book will only lead to degradation of the set. There are timing and movement directional issues, pauses, transitional movements, etc... that exist and are not really shown in the book;
such as within the section you're asking about.

By the way, yes I do know/have learned this set.

[gothmantis]

Thanks for replying again.

The reason my sifu does not know this form is because our lineage is none of the 3 you mentioned (WHF, Chu Chi Man, or Lee Kam Wing). And the form in question was originally a Plum Flower Praying Mantis form anyway. My sifu is an excellent practitioner but tends to stick with the original half dozen or so 7* Mantis forms, which he knows VERY well. Other forms he knows less well and doesn't tend to teach (unfortunately for me).

I love to learn forms; it keeps me motivated as I have no-one to train with for 49 weeks of the year. It is not so much the actual form I seek to learn from beginning to end but the individual techniques from it. It has some very nice throws in it and the hand combination at the end is awesome.

If as you say the form is riddled with hidden moves and subtle techniques then explaining the first move to me will make no difference anyway. I'll still attempt to learn the rest of the form regardless. You (or somebody else) have the opportunity to make sure that I do the first move correctly.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

[Young Mantis]

Gothmantis,

I will agree with the above posts by Ericsepishii thus far. When WHF published his books on the NPM system, it was done so for people who have learned the sets to have a reference source for the sequence and for other information he gives about the techniques and usage. He also wrote a lot about the style so that people would get an introduction to the style and want to seek out a certified instructor to learn from. He did not publish these books for people to learn the forms from. In fact, he is known for being a very strict teacher with traditional beliefs when it comes to learning and teaching.

One of the current discussions within the MA world in regards to documenting forms is that of books vs. video. Books allow the practitioner who has already learned the form a good way of rememberng the sequence while it does not give away the transitional movements in the form. What this does is allow teachers and practitioners who have studied under qualified instructors to see if someone else has learned a form from a book or not. I myself have seen people doing forms incorrectly because they tried to learn the form from the book. Usually, there were no transitional movemements and stepping patterns were incorrect (i.e. forwards instead of backwards).

I will repeat Eric's sentiment. You may feel that this is an old-fashioned way of thinking and that we are being selfish for not sharing this information but it is a means for keeping up the integrity of the system.

Eric never said the form is "riddled with hidden moves", he simply said there are transitions timing issues, many of them not subtle that are not shown in the book. Having said that, then what would it matter to show you the opening if the rest of it will be wrong? You phrase your request for help as an opportunity for someone to teach you the correct way. Why would anyone see that as an opportunity for them?

Good luck with your studies and practice what your Sifu has taught you.

Sincerly,

YM

[carnival shoes]

????

[gothmantis]

I currently live in St. Leonards On Sea on the East Sussex coast. Believe me there are no 7* Mantis classes around here. I know of one in London but it's a different lineage. In fact the only place in Britain I know of that you can learn the WKH lineage is West Yorkshire, where I am originally from. I've never even met another student of my lineage outside of that county.

To be honest, I would welcome someone to train with, whatever their lineage, but I have a sifu and could never call someone else sifu. That, to me, would be disrespectful to my sifu, which I couldn't allow to happen. As well as my teacher he's also a good friend of mine.

Hi Carnival shoes. Are you you from England? The time you posted the reply seems to suggest this. Is the club you are with affiliated with sifu Frearson or sifu Michael Lee? Contact me again if you wish and we can discuss technique, forms, and so on.

Hi Eric. I respect your decision, after all, you don't know me from Adam and only have my word for how long I've been training and my competence level. But I work at an international college and can get it translated by one of the Chinese students here. As long as I can get my sifu to lend me the book that is.

Take care guys.

Hi Gothmantis,
Where was the school in London you mentioned?
thanks.

[gothmantis]

It's a Mo Lam school, but I'm afraid I don't have the address anymore.

I can only suggest you try asking around the forum.

Best of luck.