Dr. Su Yu-Chang

[Vertiggo]

Has anyone in this forum studied under Dr. Chang?
What system(s) of mantis does he know/teach? What's his reputation as an instructor/master?

An enquiring mind wants to know.

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[baji-fist]

Vertigo,

Su is his surname, and Yu-Chang is his name. To asnwer your questions, my sifu studied with Master Su in Taiwan during the late 60's and 70's before learning under the late GM Liu Yun Qiao. Master Su is specialize in different styles of mantis (qi xing, ba bu, liu hei, mi men, and mei hua styles), bajiquan / piquazhang, xing i quan, yang and chen styles of taijiquan, yin style baguazhang, qi gong, and various weapons. Out of all these styles, his specialties are preying mantis (this is the style where he is nicknamed "Lightning Fist" Su) and Bajiquan. I was very fortunate to work with him while I was in Ohio attending a Wu-Tan Kung Fu tournament. His knowledge of the martial arts is very high level. I really recommend learning from him if ever you have the chance. I believe he is in New York right now teaching. You can link up to his webpage via htt://www.bodymindharmony.com, just go to the Wutang Links page and you should be able to find his link. Hope this info helps!

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Vertiggo]

Baji-Fist,

Thanks for your speedy and informative reply. I am fortunate because I happen to live in New York City. I will check out the website and make plans to visit the school.

I am not familiar with the Baji system, is it Northern, internal, etc.?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[baji-fist]

Vertigo,

NP! I'm just glad I was some help to you. About Bajiquan, or the Eight Extremities Fist-style, Is a famous Northern Style from Cang County Hebei province. Baji is also regarded as the "Bodyguard" style because it was the style of choice among Henry Pu Yi, Mao Tse Tong, and Chang Kai Shek personal guards.

It is a very ruthless and direct style, which teaches a person to defeat an attacker with one single strike. The training is quite harsh; students spend a long period of time maintaining low stances to develop its notorious internal power (jing). One of the main features of this style is its loud stomps, which punctuates its discharging of energy. It is a close range style that uses all eight locations of the body (head, shoulders, elbows, hands, feet, buttocks, hips, and knees) to deliver cruel and painful strikes.

Some people have compared it to Xing I Quan on steroids (I have seen Xing I and found that the two are quite similar, and also can see why they would say that about Baji...hehehe). Bajiquan is often classified as a External/Internal style. Meaning it has elements of both. But if you deeper into Bajiquan, you will find that it is very internal. A good website to check out is http://www.bajimen.com They go really in depth on Bajiquan. Hope this info helps!

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet

[This message was edited by baji-fist on 11-14-00 at 03:11 PM.]

[kungfu cowboy]

how do you deliver cruel and painful strikes with your buttocks?!?!

[baji-fist]

I am not an expert in Baji, I am only a student of the style. I remember my sifu telling us one day that every part of the body is considered a weapon. He was demonstrating that even one's "buttocks" can also deliver very powerful stikes. A person who is trained in Baji is able to issue fa-jing to any part of his body. The "buttocks" is one of the extremities of the body and can also be used as a weapon. Yin Bagua also can deliver strikes with the "buttocks" in close range. It is quite powerful if you learn to issue fa jing.

BTW kung fu cowboy, I notice you are from Akron, Ohio. Are you a student of Master Yang Xiao Dong? From what I know, he and his students are the only preying mantis instructors there. He is also a Baji player (my sifu's kung fu bro).

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[kungfu cowboy]

I am indeed a student under sifu Yang Xiao Dong. I study praying mantis. I will have to ask the baji players about the striking. I have not seen much of it, but what I have seen looks quite powerful.

Your sifu studied with mine? That's cool.Oh, I remember! You answered an earlier post by me regarding his school. I also asked you about breakfalls and rolls. You said you do them. At my school we do not. I think that this is a gross oversight of a fundamental skill. I wonder why not, if both our sifu learned together, why one teaches them, but the other does not? Do you think it was in THEIR curriculum when they were learning? Oh well, I know them from prior jujitsu training, but I still think it is too important a skill to be left out. I guess I will ask him about it! I am open for discussion about training and stuff since we are from the same lineage,if you are interested. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[baji-fist]

SO we are from the same lineage! It is good to see fellow Wu-Tan players in here! BaguaMantis is also a fellow Wu-Tan practitioner. About teh breakfall, we do know how to do it, but it did not come from Sifu. One of my kung fu bros had experience doing it in the previous styles he had studied, and he basically shared it with us. Sifu doesn't hold us back from learning something that may help our kung fu. When we do practice our applications, we try to do breakfalls along with it.

Hey, where you at Sifu Yang's tournament last October? Four of us and my sifu were there. Anyways, you have a very good teacher. He is really skillful in his kung fu, not very many people are fortunate to study under a very qualified teacher. Keep in touch!

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[kungfu cowboy]

Yes, I went to the tournaent, but regrettably only got to see the masters demo(su yu chang was pretty amazing)because it started so late, and had other things I had to do. Did you attend the seminar with master su yu chang at the school?

[Vertiggo]

Baji-Fist,

I have read your replies and found them to be very informative and intriguing. I checked out the Baji site and yes, it had alot of info regarding the system. This has certainly motivated me to further check out Dr. Su's school in NY. What's great is he teaches both mantis and baji. that I've always been fascinated with the Mantis system and now I'm growing ever more curious about Baji as well.

How did you happen to become a student of Baji? I have never heard of this system before and it sounds fascinating. Seems to me that it's very similar to Hsing Yi, but then...I don't know anything at all.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Vertiggo]

Woops...Baji-Fist, I just re-read your post on the 13th and in it you stated that Baji is like Hsing Yi on steroids. Duhhh....

[baji-fist]

Vertigo,

Good to hear from you again. To answer your question, I started my training in bajiquan purely by luck. I came to Wu-Tan originally to learn Chen Taiji and Preying mantis. I had heard good things about these two styles and wanted to try out the Chinese systems. That was spring 97. The summer of that year, we were talking about mantis applications, then sifu started to talk about Bajiquan. Being the ignorant person I am didn't pay much attention to it. Plus, I never heard of the style before so I thought, "it probably isn't very good." Then out of no where I hear a stomp, it was my sifu demonstrating a application from Baji. Bro, it was love at first sight! I couldn't belive the power that he generated performing one of the moves. Then sifu went on to talk about how in Baji if one move will not do the job, then a elbow or shoulder hit or what have you will do it. It was amazing. It was so simple yet so effective.

Sifu would not teach Baji to us for a while. He only talked about it but never taught the style. He did at one time taught about 4 or five people it, but he only showed the first form Xiao Baji. Sifu held the style very highly and felt it should be taught to those who are accepted into the lineage. It wasn't until he accepted his first set disciples (I was very fortunate to be accepted as one) he began to heavily teach Baji. Now Baji is my major style and still working to getting the right "jing" out. I love every minute of it. I still practice Tang Lang and Chen Taiji, I would be stupid not to, but I really feel that Baji best suits me.

One more thing, Baji's energy was added into the Tang Lang we do. Since the training is quite harsh, we find that our Tang Lang is a bit heavier than other lineages. That is the reason why Master Su calls his organization "Pa Chi (Another way of spelling Baji) Tang Lang Chuan Association." We still have the monkey's footwork like other mantis styles, but there are moments when we do the bear step or rising changing step (baji's footwork) in our mantis. It is an interesting combo and very effective one too.

In Chen Taijiquan, the fa jing issued in that style is quite similar to Bajiquan. As a matter of fact, GM Liu Yun Qiao (our Baji Grandmaster) saw Chen Fa Ke (17th generation master of Chen Taiji) perform the Pao Chui form. GM Liu and GM Chen were both surprised to see similar Fa Jing in their respective styles and exchanged ideas and concepts. This is why many of our fellow Wu-Tan practitioners were encourage to learn Chen Taiji by GM Liu.

Learning under Su Yu Chang is a very good opportunity to experience all three styles (Tang Lang, Baji, and Taiji). He has a wealth of knowledge to offer. Although Master Su only speaks Chinese and Spanish (he lived in Venezuela and Barcelona for quite some time before moving to the States), but he does have translators. Well I got to go, take care and I wish you the best in your search.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[8stepsifu]

lucky you to be learning such cool stuff from a famous teacher. I went to a Wu Tan web site. Cool logo. Anyway the kung fu I saw there in the pics was some of the best I've seen on the web. No skinny leg hippies claiming to be tai chi/ba gua masters. It looks like people are working out and enjoying the benefits of kung fu. The more I see or hear about people who actually know what jing is and how to issue it, the more I feel that my eccentrically kung fu based lifestyle isn't an isolated case. On this planet true kung fu practitioners are few and far between. Which reminds me, Its almost 12:00 the time I go to the barn to practice Iron Palm before hitting the sak...nigh

8Step Sifu

[baji-fist]

8Step Sifu,

I feel you bro! I was the same way for a while. It took me a long time before I found a very good teacher in kung fu. I saw plenty of schools, but none really impressing me. In Wu-Tan, we try our best to work hard. I think what I love the most about our training is the emphasis on the stance training. I had done Filipino Kali (I felt I should learn the style to get back to my roots) and tae kwon do in the past, but could never really generate fa-jing; of course I did't know about such a thing, but I can tell something was missing. It wasn't until I began my training in kung fu and also in the stance training, I learned how to issue the fa jing! I just wish I had began my training earlier in life, but I am glad at least I have found something that suits me. Gotta go, take care and keep up with the training.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[kungfu cowboy]

Baji-fist,

I was wondering what your stance training regimine is like. At master Yang's school, we have horse,cat,dragon,bow,one-leg,and 7star, which we do at the end of class. All in all, it only takes about 5 minutes. I am used to doing a half hour of stance work from my old school's routine (ouch),so this is easy.How long is the routine at your school? I have only been studying here for three months,and I would like to know how teachers from the same lineage may differ in their training. I have found that where I am training now is not as hardcore as I would have expected it to be,especially considering the lineage. Also, do you do any sparring? Any info appreciated!

[This message was edited by kungfu cowboy on 11-16-00 at 03:17 AM.]

[baji-fist]

In our class, we start of with tem minutes of quick warmups to loosen the joints. Afterwards we do basic punches, basic kicks(although at times we do kicks after stretching), and at times we do the dog skin palm from Piquazhang. Now the real fun begins, we do stances for about 15 - 20 minutes. In our Ba Shi training it consists of 8 fundamental stances:
Ma Bu
Zuo Pan (Cross legged Stance)
Su Liu (60/40 stance)
Gong Bu (Bow and Arrow Stance)
Du Li (Single Leg)
San Chi (30/70)
Xi Su (empty leg)
Pu Tui (I forget what it is the translation, but it is similar to riding tiger in the long fist system)

Ma Bu is the first stance we do first. Afterwards we do each of the following stances on both left and right sides for about 8-15 breaths (about a minute). Ma Bu is always the transitional stance. For example, I hold Gong Bu for 8 breaths on my left side, then I go into ma bu and hold that for 8 breaths. Now I go into Gong Bu on my right side...and so on.

After stance work, we do some stretches and break up into our respective groups. Since I belong to the Baji group, we continue on with our stance training via the baji kicks (if you see Xiao Baji, the first two kicks found in that form we do as basic stance training. We do it back and forth for about 3 breaths. Although the goal is 8 breaths). Afterwards we do basics from Baji and hold each posture for about 8 breaths.

After class is over, the taiji group leaves leaves and the baji group continues on with Da Baji. We stay for about another hour working on the form. But yeah, that is our training at our school. At times we stay after class to work even more on the Baji. Hope this info helps.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[kungfu cowboy]

Thanks Baji-fist!

[BaguaMantis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ma Bu is the first stance we do first. Afterwards we do each of the following stances on both left and right sides for about 8-15 breaths (about a minute). Ma Bu is always the transitional stance. For example, I hold Gong Bu for 8 breaths on my left side, then I go into ma bu and hold that for 8 breaths. Now I go into Gong Bu on my right side...and so on. [/quote]

we have the exact same stance drill. we do a few extra stances that are in the various mantis forms though, just to get used to them more than anything. we have horse, bow/arrow, cat, monkey, dragon (or twisted horse), tiger, snake, lazy snake, rooster, low swallow, eagle, 7 star, 70/30, 60/40, and a few others. we practice the ones which we will be using the most in whichever form we're practicing that day. even though we have that slight variation, its nice to know that we're doing pretty much the same thing as the other wutang brothers.

--Jared--
A black
sheep is still just a
shee

[baji-fist]

Oh cool! Yeah we basically do the same stances. Actually in the mantis system, we too have extra stances along with the eight fundamental stances: retreating stance, ring entering stance, seven star stance, and twisted punch. In Baji, we do the stance training with the Baji low kicks, the elbow strike in Xiao Baji, and of course the Xiao Baji form. I too am happy that there is consistancy with our training methods! Hope to hear from you again!

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[kungfu cowboy]

How are you doing? It is nice to know that the core of our systems is similar. Our mantis also is flavored with baji movements. From the little that I know, we practice the baji-stepping punch, and also some driving elbow. There is probably more that I don't know of. I think they are a good addition to mantis. I would also like to take baji, but I think that I should wait awhile.(I am going to go watch the baji class tomorrow)
It sure is brutal. Seems like it would take a LONG time to develop the correct power. Does your sifu also teach piqua? I hear that they really compliment each other very well. Hopefully I will be able to discuss with you more as I learn more.Talk to you soon!

[obiwan]

Just to let you know, my teacher learnt from Adam Hsu who also learnt from Liu Yin Qiao! (Lie Yin Chiao)

I have been reading about your training regime and it sounds very similar to mine. I learn primarily Tang lang, but I do know basic Baji, pi kua and ba gua!

We hold the stances too, but for 3 breaths. However, the breathing is more controled, and you said your stances last for a few minutes. Our one lasts about the same time, but ideally at 3 breaths per stance per side. (Obviously the beginners cant keep up so they breath more)

I trained down in Australia, so it's nice to see cousin schools at the other side of the world!

And to Kung fu cowboys comment about intensity of training, our school definately doesn't train as hard as other schools I've seen, but every time I do square off, I normally come out ahead. It's amazing because I put in probably 50% of the time and effort that most other schools do, yet I can best most of them.

I've beaten practitioners of Judo, kendo, Tong Bei, Wing Chun, tae kwon do, and karate. So don't be too worried about the lack of intensity, it's quality.

I was beaten once by a Tong Bei instructor (after i beat his senior student) But he said I wasn't allowed to kick. I feel I was unfairly beaten despite the fact I slammed him into a wall and that when his shirt ripped I let go and he headlocked me with his spiraling techniques. But the fact that I was beaten still ticks me off, despite the handicaps.

Yep, so dont worry about the intensity, my teacher says, he teaches us technique. If you want to get toned and stronger, you can do that yourself. I get paid to teach technique, not body buidling or fitness.

So think that you should do the more physical side yourself, and realise you are getting good value training!

The Force will be with you...always

[baji-fist]

Kung Fu Cowboy,

Yeah, I am sure you will like the Baji class. Look for Andy, his Baji is really top notch! We are still working on Da Baji. I've seen the form done in the past and thought it look very easy to do. It wasn't until sifu taught it to us, I began to realize it was really hard. I am loving every minute of it though! It is a good idea not to learn Baji right away. Baji is very intense and you should gain some experience in Mantis or Chen Taiji before you get into Baji. Oh yeah, sifu does also teach Piquazhang.


Obiwan,

Welcome to the message board. It is always good to see fellow practitioner from Liu Yun Qiao's lineage. My sifu, Kurt Wong, was taught by sifu Su Yu Chang during the late 60's. Under Sifu Su, he learned eight step, seven star, six harmony, and long fist mantis, Chen Taiji, and long fist. In the 70's, sifu became a "Tan" disciple of GM Liu. GM Liu taught sifu Bajiquan and Piquazhang. Sifu also trained under sifu Adam Hsu during the early 80's. Sifu Hsu helped sifu Wong refine his Chen Taijiquan and Jiao Men Changquan.

Sifu also stresses technique. But the discipleship training requires for us to constantly drill basics and stances in order to develop our fa jing. In the regular class though, sifu asks that we do the endurence stuff on our own. BTW, who is your sifu? Again welcome to the forum and keep up with the training!

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[obiwan]

Mey Baji Fist,

My sifu's name is Paul Beach. He learnt Seven star from Adam Hsu, as well as ba gua, pikua, chen tai ji, and a few basics of the others including some long fist.

I'm working in Japan right now, and it's really hard to find a good school around my area. Went to a 6 harmony class, but they were really misguided. Sounds like the guy learnt off someone in China, who didn't want to teach a Japanese person properly, cos the applications are all wrong. (as in they don't make sense, not that they're different)

So, in the mean time i'm getting fat, cos there's only so much training you can do by yourself, motivation wise. I practiced my forms like crazy as well as strength workouts, but it's still getting sloppy cos I cant push myself since I cant use the moves on anyone. (No one round here does martial arts that well, eg kendo and judo only.)

any training tips?

The Force will be with you...always

[Shaolin Master]

Yes Paul is a good teacher who is also an acupuncturist. He is humble of his art and quite capable more so on the Praying mantis having learnt that from many sources prior to Adam Hsu.

I'd recommend him to anyone wanting to learn Tanglangquan in the area.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

[BaguaMantis]

baji-fist-

do you also do those kicking drills from hell? basically you do thrusting kicks and hold them out until sifu thinks your going to fall down?
jared

[olkat314]

Obiwan:

I don't know where Gunma is, but I know that Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto has a particular style called Taikiken that you might be interested in. This art is also known as Da Cheng Quan and Yi Quan in China. It focuses on chi and power development. So it can probably help you in 3 ways: 1) help give you more power for fa jing, 2) give you more sparring opportunities (that's a BIG part of their training), and 3) help train your fa-jing methods (another BIG part of your training).

If you just want to spar, you could always find the Kyokoshin karate practitioners -- they would take any challenge.

E-mail me at olkat314@yahoo.com if you want more info.

Tak

[baji-fist]

When I was studying mantis, we used to do it a lot, but it was at the discretion of the one leading class. When it comes to warm-ups, sifu's students lead it. But he would come around and help correct their form. Now we are doing Baji, we concentrate on holding low kicks and single action fist strikes.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Kenji]

Hello Obiwan,

You sound like a very experienced person. I agree with Olkat. If you need some sparring partners you should try out the kyokushin schools in the area. Also might I suggest you try the any pancrase, shootfighting and wrestling schools if there is any. They are normally very open to new people. I think even the Judo people would welcome you. I have found judo people very open to new ideas and am sure they will at least find it interesting.

What are you teaching in Japan? Tell me when you'll be back in Australia. Maybe all us Aussies can all meet up and get together for some training time together.

[BaguaMantis]

unfortunatly i have gotten very little baji training thus far. hopefully soon. i just have the 6 harmony spear set, which i beleive is considered baji.
jared

[baji-fist]

Liu Hei Qiang is a prep form for the Liu Hei Da Qiang (6 harmony lance). I have also learned the Liu Hei Qiang, from Master Lu Chagn Kuei. He was giving us a history of this form. It was originally a Xing I form, but a lot of the movements were modified to suit our Baji Lance. It is a very good form! I love the actions taught in the spear form. It has very good apps and will help inyour Baji training.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[BaguaMantis]

now i have to ask sifu which one it is! actually he always said the 6 harmony spear form we have was designed for the huge war spears and it was taught to grandmaster by god of spear li so baji was the logical assumption.
jared