Heavyweight staff

[Reverend Tap]

I'm looking for a new staff to train with, as the one and only I've got now is somewhat too light for my preferences. This time, I'm looking to go a bit in the opposite direction and get something with a bit more heft than your generic hardwood bo, to get some extra strength training while practicing. I've considered getting the eyebrow-height iron staff or even just a 6-foot pipe, but it's severely doubtful that my Sifu would allow me to train with one of those in the kwoon (and due to unfortunate space limitations at home, I'm rather short of other available options), and it's not like I need one with poundage in the double digits anyway. Looking on the internet is yielding confusing and contradictory results, with the same measurements of the same materials being listed at wildly different weights, when weight is listed at all. Anyone here know of a good source for heavier-than-average staves?

[Yum Cha]

Check your local lumber yard for hardwood dowels to the length you require. They might even come in various diameters. Something like oak is pretty heavy, and go for the biggest diameter you feel comfortable with. 40mm is pretty hefty.

These dowels are often used for fancy curtain rods, so they should have the length you're after. Finish it up nicely and seal it with a mix of oil and estapol, beauty!

Training with an old weight lifting bar is fun too....

Alternatively, get a hardwood 2x4, rip it lengthwise and plane each half down into staves. Takes a bit of time, but you can taper it if you like, make it octagonal, or whatever floats your boat.

[taai gihk yahn]

go to Bed, Bath and Beyond and check out the wooden curtain rods that they have there...

[SoCo KungFu]

I had an oak staff once. I ended up trashing it though after about the fifth time it left me with splinters. The problem with oak is that once it starts to wear its downhill from there. We abused the heck out of our sticks though so...I stick to waxwood. The more you use it the better it gets.

When it comes to anything wood, I always go with Brendan Lai. The only ones that have managed to get me the stuff I've requested in the sizes I like. My current waxwood is 1.5" on the fat end and 1" on the tapered. And the only 2 section I've ever seen worth a #$%* is proudly mine, 1.25" at its narrowest point. That thing has lasted me 6 years and its only just now starting to split on the flail section where the rivets go through the wood.

That and they have always had great customer service. I remember the time we ordered about a dozen sticks and half of em were eaten up with termites which is always a risk when you order stuff like that. They replaced everything and paid for shipping.

And the experience was totally worth it when counting the fun I had letting loose rampaging fireants onto the unsuspecting termites. Even managed to save a couple of the staffs. Nature really does often have the best cures

[viper]

what if you built a slosh pipe but with a staff like diameter go to diesel crew they had a article on there. (a slosh pipe is a pvc pipe capped at one end and screw capped at the other) Great for stabilisation muscle and is great when move it around in general causing the muscles to work in ways you wouldnt normally feel.

[masherdong]

Get one of those weighted sticks that they use for pilates or weight training. The have color stripes at the ends. Those would be good.

[Pork Chop]

I still have my heaviest staff - it's made from plumbing pipe and it's 6" over my head in length. Dunno how much it weighs, but it's heavy. When I was swinging it around a lot, if I went too fast it would feel like I was pulling something on my insides. Made me a bit stronger and really helped my endurance.

[Lucas]

Iron Wood is awesome for heavy staffs. A friend of mine has a purple heart wood staff, and its super dense and nice and heavy.

At a local shop ive seen purple heart wood and black ironwood(leadwood) staffs for sale.

the only downside is they can break bones easily so best to spar with rattan or bamboo, the ironwood can hurt pretty easily with just a light strike. really dense stuff.

[uki]

i have three different metal staffs for weight training... one is from martial arts mart, the eyebrow height metal staff, another is a 21 lb waist high iron bar, and the 3rd is an eyebrow height 20 pounder... a trip to the local scrap yard can reveal a load of training instruments.

[David Jamieson]

stability and speed.

if you can't wield the weapon effectively because it's too heavy to move quickly enough, then what is the point?

like anything that involves external devices, if you are losing correct structure while using, then stop, you are not training anything.

a rattan staff will hit someone more times in less time tahn any heavy staff will simply because it can be wielded as a weapon.

if you are very strong already and can handle something heavier at the same speed, then all power to you, but for all it's worth, buy a gun. :)

[Lucas]

Well if you keep your form correct, yet practice with a heavier staff, your body will develop strength accordingly. so when you pick up that rattan staff, you will be able to move even faster, and hit even harder.

its like using a real sword vs a wushu sword. one has real weight the other doesnt.

if you go and practice with a combat dao and then pick up a wushu dao, its like a feather.

[uki]

wushu steel is for faeries...

[David Jamieson]

Well if you keep your form correct, yet practice with a heavier staff, your body will develop strength accordingly. so when you pick up that rattan staff, you will be able to move even faster, and hit even harder.

its like using a real sword vs a wushu sword. one has real weight the other doesnt.

if you go and practice with a combat dao and then pick up a wushu dao, its like a feather.

Truth be known, training should be almost exactly the same as what it is you're training to do. You shoul dbe able to transition instantly from training to reality and vice versa.

yes, you can do supportive and attribute training, but there's much more efficient and effective ways to gain strength which is not the same as learning to properly use a weapon.

I hear where you're coming from, but to me, it's like hammering screws in. Yeah it'll work, but it's not the most desirable effect. :)

[uki]

Truth be known, training should be almost exactly the same as what it is you're training to do. which it is wise to train with practical combat blades as opposed to faerie weapons.


You shoul dbe able to transition instantly from training to reality and vice versa. notice the keyword is should


yes, you can do supportive and attribute training, but there's much more efficient and effective ways to gain strength which is not the same as learning to properly use a weapon.again you use the concept of proper... what is proper to you might be obsolete to another...


I hear where you're coming from, but to me, it's like hammering screws in. Yeah it'll work, but it's not the most desirable effect.sometimes you simply make do with what you have.

[David Jamieson]

which it is wise to train with practical combat blades as opposed to faerie weapons.
notice the keyword is should
again you use the concept of proper... what is proper to you might be obsolete to another...
sometimes you simply make do with what you have.

"proper" is my gun beats your ball juggling.

[Lucas]

wushu steel is for faeries...

true that. i dont know why more schools dont drop them and use oak or some such for class training.

[David Jamieson]

true that. i dont know why more schools dont drop them and use oak or some such for class training.

oak will break if a fault develops in the grain from repetitive striking.

rattan will break if peeled.

unskinned rattan can hit harder surfaces more times than oak can without breaking.

btdt gtts. :)

[Lucas]

Truth be known, training should be almost exactly the same as what it is you're training to do. You shoul dbe able to transition instantly from training to reality and vice versa.

yes, you can do supportive and attribute training, but there's much more efficient and effective ways to gain strength which is not the same as learning to properly use a weapon.

I hear where you're coming from, but to me, it's like hammering screws in. Yeah it'll work, but it's not the most desirable effect. :)

I get you, and I tend to hop back and forth on this kind of thing.

When I train staff, I generally just use my rattan, but it splits too easy on the ground, and I go through duct tape like nobody's business.

However, I do switch between my live katana, an oak bokken and a purple heart wood boken depending on what I feel like at the moment. each one have their own 'vibes' that i groove with.

[David Jamieson]

you a karate guy then?

[Lucas]

oak will break if a fault develops in the grain from repetitive striking.

rattan will break if peeled.

unskinned rattan can hit harder surfaces more times than oak can without breaking.

btdt gtts. :)

But for forms training I hate that wushu crap, its got no weight to it. At least wood would have some weight and not cut someone if you hit them. im thinking for full classes of course. plus as far as like dao goes or jian you can fashion the tool to have the saber curve for slashing.

[Lucas]

you a karate guy then?

nah, ive picked up a bit, but i lived with a guy who got me really into sparring with bokken.

ive never taken any formal training for it, but ive spent more time with the katana/bokken than any other tool. im more comfortable with it than with say kicking. im more comfortable punching, but oddly enough i didnt get into empty hand training until about 5 years after I had been training with the sword.

most of my experience is from sparring with a group of people using a large variety of wooden weapons. in regards to the japanese style sword.

after I began my kungfu training i was able to add in the dao, jian and staff into my training.

the nunchaku is something else ive only practiced on my own. it comes to a second after the japanese sword. but my kicks are better than my nunchaku. :p

my first Sifu woould always say i fought like a karate guy though.

[uki]

"proper" is my gun beats your ball juggling.a gun is only as accurate as the idiot wielding it. :)

it would be unfortunate that you'd miss me with bullets... as i might rend you limb from limb. :)

[SimonM]

Tried to rend a pigs leg yet? We were waiting on you for that one.

[uki]

Tried to rend a pigs leg yet? We were waiting on you for that one.trying is not doing... i'm waiting aswell.

[Yum Cha]

David,
Training with a heavy staff improves your speed and skills with a lighter weight staff, if you can avoid breaking it. Afterall, this is about training right?

I use a staff palm height, with your arm outstretched. This training gives you exceptional rooting and stance training, and it also develops upper body strength. We only use the thick hardwood variety because we've broken every other style we've tried, rattan, tapered sapling, etc. Too spendy to replace constantly.

I have another interesting staff, tapered at both ends down to about 20mm, 35mm in the middle and eyebrow height. That's the one I would take to a party, because the small ends and the weight make for a unique striking effect - penetration and slashing, and it moves very fast.

As for metal, the same goes, great for the weight training. If you're a follower of chinese medicine, they say you should never strike metal to train. FWIW.

Sparring with staves is a totally different issue than training IMHO. I've used smaller staves with plumbing insulation around the ends and duct tape, but they always end up broken too.

As for your quip bout Gun Fu, man, you is or you ain't. So what - you're bad?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I use a 1" soild steel bar, that is 6ft long, I use it to do my Bojutsu forms and I uses it to do my Chen taiji staff work and I roll it on the forearms while in a deep horse stances.
I also bang my forearms on it, just because it looks at me funny sometimes....:mad:

[Reverend Tap]

Wow. I keep forgetting how fast questions get replies in this forum.

Checked the local lumberyards, but it seems the only dowel material any of them carry beyond 3 foot is hemlock.

Some good weight training tips, though unfortunately most I can't follow through on; I would just follow through with my original plan and train with a regular oak staff in the kwoon and get a section of pipe to train with at home, but living where I do, having sufficient space at home to staff train safely is a rarity, so weightlifting bars and uprooted signs and whatnot are kind of out. I am going to go ahead and build a slosh pipe though, as I'm pretty sure my Sifu will be ok with me bringing that in during open practice. I've looked around at various exotic woods (purpleheart and whatnot), but so far the price has been a bit off-putting on those. It seems, from what I've read, that my best option at the moment is so-called "impact grade" hickory, though I still don't know really how much heavier that will be.

As to the question of whether or not training with a heavier weapon is truly helpful in terms of real-life application, I figure it's best to train with multiple weights and sizes of any weapon you use; it's easier, for example, to transfer staff training to a random pipe, branch, or other vaguely stick-shaped object in the real world if all your staff training hasn't been with one weapon of one size and weight. Training with different weights concurrently also gives you a more rounded workout; a standard weapon for learning and perfecting techniques, a heavier one for building strength and endurance in the motions, and a lighter one for working on high-speed control. At this point, I already have a lightweight staff, and standard ones are readily available everywhere, so I'm looking for that third.

[Yum Cha]

..., I figure it's best to train with multiple weights and sizes of any weapon you use; it's easier, for example, to transfer staff training to a random pipe, branch, or other vaguely stick-shaped object in the real world if all your staff training hasn't been with one weapon of one size and weight. Training with different weights concurrently also gives you a more rounded workout; a standard weapon for learning and perfecting techniques, a heavier one for building strength and endurance in the motions, and a lighter one for working on high-speed control...

Good thinking. I have a philosophy of not getting attached to a particular weapon because you never know in a real life circumstance what might come to hand. For example, you may not have your favorite weight to hand, but you may have a shovel, a tent pole or a big branch, etc and you should be able to use it.

[Lucas]

its all about the big branch.

especially if you can find one thats got lots of leaves on the end that are on fire.

[David Jamieson]

My point is, that if you cannot wield the weapon as you are best able, with the speed and force required, then what you can lift and do all that with, is enough.

If you use something that is too heavy to do that with, then you are better off getting the strength attribute elsewhere and gradually increase the weight of your weapon over time.

[Lucas]

i still advocate the use of giant burning branches!

[Oso]

hemlock? really? I've never seen hemlock stock...what part of the country are you from?

I made a bunch of staves once (or, rather, had some made) out of ash.

got some 2" stock and a woodworker planed them down to octagonals a bit over 1" in diameter...hard to find a small woodworker willing to take on a small job w/ a lathe big enough to turn 7' poles.

i love them, best ever in my hands. ash is what baseball bats are made of and many axe/mattock/sledge handles. strong yet flexible and resilient.

treated them with mineral oil lightly and they have not split or dried out in 4 years.

[TenTigers]

"Nothing beats a good piece of hickory!"

[Reverend Tap]

hemlock? really? I've never seen hemlock stock...what part of the country are you from?

I'm in Colorado. The hemlock was only in long round poles, and it was grouped in with all the pine stock in every place I went. Nobody even had pine poles, just the hemlock. Kinda weird.

But, on the upside, I did manage to find another lumberyard in my town, and it's apparently one that specializes in hardwoods and exotics, so we'll see in a couple of days if they've got anything good for me.

[Reverend Tap]

My point is, that if you cannot wield the weapon as you are best able, with the speed and force required, then what you can lift and do all that with, is enough.

If you use something that is too heavy to do that with, then you are better off getting the strength attribute elsewhere and gradually increase the weight of your weapon over time.

Well, I'm not talking about trying to train with something I can barely lift or anything. A few extra pounds in the staff isn't going to be so much that I'll be swinging at tortoise speeds, just enough that it'll make me work harder for each swing than my super-light red pine staff will. I'm not some super macho strongman, but a 4-8 pound staff isn't exactly a barbell either.

[Lucas]

specializes in hardwoods and exotics, so we'll see in a couple of days if they've got anything good for me.

thats what i did. years ago a buddy and i went to this guys warehouse full of all types of rare/exotic wood in various shapes and sizes and conditions. took us a while to find him though.

we walked out of there witha 12'x1', 3" thick piece of purple heart for around 70-80 bucks.

it took me a full week (took vacation time to do it) of non stop work to get my bokken out of it, using no power tools. i swear i spent almost as much time sharpening my chisles/planers as i did working the wood. but the finish product...worth at least a lifetime.

out of that we each got a bokken and had tons of material left which is still around somewhere....

[bakxierboxer]

I use a 1" soild steel bar....

:eek:
You should try washing it once in a while....... :rolleyes:



that is 6ft long.... I roll it on the forearms while in a deep horse stances.
I also bang my forearms on it, just because it looks at me funny sometimes....:mad:

"works for you", too, huh?

[sanjuro_ronin]

:eek:
You should try washing it once in a while....... :rolleyes:




"works for you", too, huh?

LOL, yes it works well, thanks for the advice, Old timer.
:D

[bakxierboxer]

LOL, yes it works well, thanks for the advice, Old timer.
:D

Sure thing. :cool:

You get around to "twirling" it yet? :D
(figure-8s and such)
(in front and side-to-side)
(THEN you can twirl it "in reverse")
(got to watch out for yer shins, though)
(an' maybe yer head)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure thing. :cool:

You get around to "twirling" it yet? :D
(figure-8s and such)
(in front and side-to-side)
(THEN you can twirl it "in reverse")
(got to watch out for yer shins, though)
(an' maybe yer head)

There is some "silk reeling" based stuff I do and yes I do the figure "8" forward and reverse, both sides.
Typically I do about 10 minutes worth of work, non-stop, simply because that is all the time I have for THAT particular exercise.

[Oso]

I'm in Colorado. The hemlock was only in long round poles, and it was grouped in with all the pine stock in every place I went. Nobody even had pine poles, just the hemlock. Kinda weird.

But, on the upside, I did manage to find another lumberyard in my town, and it's apparently one that specializes in hardwoods and exotics, so we'll see in a couple of days if they've got anything good for me.

yea, weird, but i know different parts of the country will have different types of wood...'round here hemlocks are all dying off from the woody adelgid...2nd time a pest from importing asian products has killed off a major species of tree in the SE (chestnut blight)

[Reverend Tap]

yea, weird, but i know different parts of the country will have different types of wood...'round here hemlocks are all dying off from the woody adelgid...2nd time a pest from importing asian products has killed off a major species of tree in the SE (chestnut blight)

Ah. Yeah, in this area it's the pine forests that are dying off through a combination of pine beetle and dwarf mistletoe, so I suppose it makes sense that I'd be seeing them starting to sell some "pine substitutes."

[Yum Cha]

Ronin,
How does that bar of yours compare to a standard weight lifting bar?

sounds like it may be a bit longer?


On a side note, same principle as training with a heavy staff...

I have two 18 inch stainless steel rods, about 20mm that I use for practising single and double sword form, They weigh easily twice as much as a Dragon Forge standard steel dao, perhaps more...

Any of you guys practice the stick fighting arts use weighted training tools?

[Oso]

Any of you guys practice the stick fighting arts use weighted training tools?

yea, i used two 24" x 3/4 galvanized pipe w/ caps on each end...filled them 1/2 way up w/ water so there was a dynamic aspect to it.

still have them and occasionally pick them up to do basic sinewali drills.

[Yum Cha]

yea, i used two 24" x 3/4 galvanized pipe w/ caps on each end...filled them 1/2 way up w/ water so there was a dynamic aspect to it.
.

That sounds awesome, using water like that. The ones I use tend to feel 'end heavy', does the water enhance or diminish the effect? I realise there is a lot more to the dynamic movement...

[Oso]

starts off light on the end and then heavier at the end of the stroke...but, once you get going the centrifugal (sp?) force keeps the water on the end...i had one bag I would beat on with them (it was already duct taped up) and I think that you would get the shift back to the hand end on rebounds

heh, i got the idea from a sci fi book where executioners swords had a hollow tube up the center that held mercury...made the end of the stroke more sure...what was that author...Gene something..."Sword of the Lictor"...

ah, here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_New_Sun

[/geek]