OT: The Culture of Corruption Will be the Death of China

[SimonM]

People are getting ****ed and heads are rolling. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6286698.stm)

This is the latest in a string of officials to be executed for massive corruption. I predicted this would happen after the melamine fiasco hit however it appears that, in this case, it was other matters that led to his demise.

Still this latest execution is merely Beijing making a show of discouraging the culture of corruption which has descimated china's social millieu.

Right now, in China, it is commonplace for people to buy jobs, frequently for as much as a decade's salary, because the position is one where both the official non-monetary benefits and (more relevantly) the opportunity for kickbacks are so great that they outweigh the cost.

The fact that jobs are going to the highest bidder rather than the most qualified exacerbates the situation.

The Chinese public is becoming highly dissatisfied with this corruption. The fact is that the much (inappropriately) lauded Deng Xiaoping dragged China away from the iron rice bowl and into capitalism without providing any actual freedom in exchange for the loss of pseudo-communist security. This has made corruption worse (and it was BAD before) as the only rights Chinese people seem to have are property rights! When EVERYBODY is taking bribes so they can buy a new car, a flashier phone or a more elaborate set of living room furniture is it any surprise that people who can only fully express themselves through what they buy, who have become consumers rather than citizens, decide to get in on the action?

What China MUST deal with NOW if they wish to survive and to continue to grow is the ENDEMIC bribe taking and corruption that permeates EVERY walk of life from private business, to schools to government.

If it isn't dealt with soon mark my words...

More heads will roll.

With equal likelihood that it is at the behest of the powers in Beijing or at the behest of those who will replace them.

[lkfmdc]

Read stuff from Ming, Qing, Republic and Communist periods and you will read the same stuff. Read about Taiwan. Something indemic to the culture.....

[diego]

People are getting ****ed and heads are rolling. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6286698.stm)

This is the latest in a string of officials to be executed for massive corruption. I predicted this would happen after the melamine fiasco hit however it appears that, in this case, it was other matters that led to his demise.

Still this latest execution is merely Beijing making a show of discouraging the culture of corruption which has descimated china's social millieu.

Right now, in China, it is commonplace for people to buy jobs, frequently for as much as a decade's salary, because the position is one where both the official non-monetary benefits and (more relevantly) the opportunity for kickbacks are so great that they outweigh the cost.

The fact that jobs are going to the highest bidder rather than the most qualified exacerbates the situation.

The Chinese public is becoming highly dissatisfied with this corruption. The fact is that the much (inappropriately) lauded Deng Xiaoping dragged China away from the iron rice bowl and into capitalism without providing any actual freedom in exchange for the loss of pseudo-communist security. This has made corruption worse (and it was BAD before) as the only rights Chinese people seem to have are property rights! When EVERYBODY is taking bribes so they can buy a new car, a flashier phone or a more elaborate set of living room furniture is it any surprise that people who can only fully express themselves through what they buy, who have become consumers rather than citizens, decide to get in on the action?

What China MUST deal with NOW if they wish to survive and to continue to grow is the ENDEMIC bribe taking and corruption that permeates EVERY walk of life from private business, to schools to government.

If it isn't dealt with soon mark my words...

More heads will roll.

With equal likelihood that it is at the behest of the powers in Beijing or at the behest of those who will replace them.

see in vancouver everyone knows bikers run **** and you may get away with robbing them, but you don't **** with the triads because there is so many of them and they don't wear biker patches. asians run organized crime but the bikers own it as it's still a white christian nation...notice how the roman catholic church is so corrupt with the sex scandals and killing indians and then you see how a lot of the bikers are italian...

anyway, how big is triad involvement with the CCP?.

[lkfmdc]

WTF?

???????????????????????????????

:confused:

:rolleyes:

[Reverend Tap]

From what (admittedly little) I've read about Chinese culture, local "favor economies" seem to have been extremely predominant as a system of trading goods and services, moreso than rigid price-based buying and selling. Seems fairly reasonable that having the latter superimposed on the former would cause problems of this nature (that is, of course, an extreme oversimplification).

[SimonM]

LOL! China has been using a money based economy continuously for over 2000 years. They pretty much invented most of modern banking. The Shanxi merchant guild was one of the most powerful financial entities in the world in their day.

They toyed with Communism under Mao but it was never really implemented properly and systemic mismanagement of agriculture and industry further decimated a country still reeling from a century of colonial warfare.

Deng Xiaoping barely waited for Mao's corpse to cool before he started implementing "reforms" (which basically meant return to the status quo of the last 2000 years, an autocratic central government founded on an exam based bureaucracy with an independent and largely unregulated free market) however the problems with corruption (which follow such a formulation) returned (one could say continued as Mao did not stop the problems though they have got worse since the end of the cultural revolution) with a vengeance and now completely permeate the country.

[diego]

WTF?

???????????????????????????????

:confused:

:rolleyes:

nerd

bikers run the ports and do business with the asians ask some one

[diego]

China corruption linked to triads

March 10, 2002 Posted: 11:40 PM EST (0440 GMT)
People's National Congress
People's National Congress
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Willy Wo-Lap Lam
CNN Senior China Analyst

(CNN) -- More than 2,600 influential officials were last year implicated in crimes including corruption, with triad groups increasingly implicated in this scourge of Chinese administration.

Six ministerial-level cadres were among those included in the figure, indicated the problem tainted even senior levels of government.

In his report to the National People's Congress (NPC) on Monday, the Head of the Supreme People's Procuratorate (SPP) Han Zhubin also disclosed that 40,195 people were investigated for graft-related crimes in 2001.

The head of the SPP, which handles investigations and prosecutions in the Chinese legal system, also indicated that the state was able to recover losses of 4.1 billion yuan (US$550 million) as a result of timely action by legal officials.

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The best known among the six ministerial-level cadres who lost their jobs was former Governor of Yunnan Province, Li Jiating, who reportedly took bribes worth more than 1 million yuan ($120,000).

Judicial officials said there was a growing link at the NPC between corrupt officials and triad societies, or Chinese-style mafia.

In his report presented Monday to the legislature, the President of the Supreme People's Court Xiao Yang said the courts heard 350 cases of triad activities last year, up 630 percent from 2000.
Lengthy jail terms

The number of suspected triad members put on trial was 1,953, up 380 percent from the year before.

Provincial papers have reported that triads played a key role in the well-publicized corruption cases involving senior officials in Yunnan and Shenyang.

For example, former governor Li Jiating's son, who reportedly pocketed 20 million yuan, was said to be a leader of a triad gang.

However, Han's report also admitted growing problems with the probity of law-enforcement officials.

Four hundred and six officials at various levels of the procuratorate were last year subject to investigation for corruption and other reasons.

Fifty six procuratorate cadres were put on trial for criminal offences.

Among them, head of the Shenyang Procuratorate, Liu Shi, was given a jail term of 20 years for corruption and leaking state secrets.

In his NPC report, Han also said a top priority of law enforcement this year would be to launch "strike hard" campaigns against subversive and anti-government groups, including terrorist and cult organizations.

[lkfmdc]

don't let the fact that the original post had nothing to do with biker gangs and triads stop you from posting about what you always post about :rolleyes:

[Reverend Tap]

LOL! China has been using a money based economy continuously for over 2000 years. They pretty much invented most of modern banking. The Shanxi merchant guild was one of the most powerful financial entities in the world in their day.

Eh, suppose I phrased that poorly. Didn't mean to say "favor economy" was a system used in place of money, but more as a common practice of modification of that same money economy, which does tend to produce a high incidence of corruption.

As I said, though, my knowledge of historical Chinese culture is cursory at best. I did know that communism was never actually implemented, Maoism (along with all other Leninist-derivatives) being more of a form of totalitarian state-capitalism than anything else, but my knowledge base rapidly declines regarding anything pre-CR.

[diego]

don't let the fact that the original post had nothing to do with biker gangs and triads stop you from posting about what you always post about :rolleyes:

asians are buying up vancouver, when a commie gets executed for corruption i'd like to know I'm highly disgusted and frightened at the levels of future organized crime about to pop off once the white power structure dwindles in the next fifty years...rwanda anyone... I live in hongcouver dude, it worries me how ugly the CCP be and honestly I don't see much hope for them, dude gets executed it's worth a post. I'm not aware that I always post about corrupt people:confused:

[SimonM]

The article I posted gave no indication of Triad involvement. It simply stated he had taken bribes from drug companies to give a pass to drugs without proper safety inspection protocols.

Corruption in China is certainly not limited to organized crime syndicates. As I said it is endemic.

That said it has nothing to do with the colour of the skin of those involved either. Racism is abhorrent.

[diego]

The article I posted gave no indication of Triad involvement. It simply stated he had taken bribes from drug companies to give a pass to drugs without proper safety inspection protocols.

Corruption in China is certainly not limited to organized crime syndicates. As I said it is endemic.

That said it has nothing to do with the colour of the skin of those involved either. Racism is abhorrent.

white people run organized crime just like they run the governments...cia will off anyone. it's a racist world. people always talk about conspiracy theories but really it's just gangsters using church's and governments to push their stamp. bannanas and women is what the world is about, seeing this guy get his head chopped off gives me that "I told you so" chill. I'm on some chicken little **** too dude, I agree with you;)

[lkfmdc]

tin foil hat brigade :rolleyes:

[diego]

tin foil hat brigade :rolleyes:

tell that to the natives chauch

[TenTigers]

I am not sure what I fear most-Government corruption, or corruption of the FDA for being controlled by the pharma companies. Gangland corruption is not as scary. Mobs control certain businesses-casinos, construction,catering,drugs, prostitution,etc-things that I don't deal with. Bikers control their drug market,guns,prostitution, stripper bars-things that don't affect me, because I don't get involved with them. Besides, they don't affect their consumers, they affect the suppliers and providers. John Q. Public goes through his entire life without ever coming in contact with the mob.
You know where you stand with them.
But my food, medicine etc? That scares me. That affects my everyday life and that of my loved ones.

[diego]

I am not sure what I fear most-Government corruption, or corruption of the FDA for being controlled by the pharma companies. Gangland corruption is not as scary. Mobs control certain businesses-casinos, construction,catering,drugs, prostitution,etc-things that I don't deal with. Bikers control their drug market,guns,prostitution, stripper bars-things that don't affect me, because I don't get involved with them. Besides, they don't affect their consumers, they affect the suppliers and providers. John Q. Public goes through his entire life without ever coming in contact with the mob.
You know where you stand with them.
But my food, medicine etc? That scares me. That affects my everyday life and that of my loved ones.
criminals are getting more techy tho...street heroin and bootleg Tylenol what's the difference to buddy right?. PROPHET

[Kansuke]

Do you not know how to spell, or did you just really change the topic?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Corruption in government ???
NNNOOOOO !!!!!!
Say it ain't so !!!
:p

[SimonM]

I know that a thread about government corruption may not seem particularly... surprising. However the situation in China is spiralling out of control. Beijing needs to clamp down on it. And they know it too. Problem is that Beijing's method has been by finding expendable big-wigs (such this guy and the mayor of shanghai) and saccrificing them without tackling the systemic issues that allow things like this to happen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know that a thread about government corruption may not seem particularly... surprising. However the situation in China is spiralling out of control. Beijing needs to clamp down on it. And they know it too. Problem is that Beijing's method has been by finding expendable big-wigs (such this guy and the mayor of shanghai) and saccrificing them without tackling the systemic issues that allow things like this to happen.

Its always been like that in China, it may be more public now, sign of the times that's all.

[SimonM]

It fluxuates in China. It's reaching a head now. The stability of Beijing and the ability of the CCP to maintain the mandate will depend on how they handle the problem.

[WinterPalm]

I prefer to say that scumbags are running the show rather than point out any one skin colour designation. I'm white, I resent people always saying white people are running everything and doing so much evil. I'm not running anything. I'm not corrupt...maybe a little evil?:cool:
I think the same standard should apply...you can't say black people are all welfare bum criminals...so why can you say white people are to blame for all this? The Chinese example shows that it has nothing to do with skin colour, but rather the nature of some people to be corrupt.

[David Jamieson]

not "some" people.

There are no people that are not subject to corruption.

In fact, many of our corruptions we are wholly unaware of because they are not deemed to be so.

It is in our nature and a survival instinct to allow for corruption to further our own goals as individuals.

I would say that there are "some" people who are not corrupt as opposed to "some" who are. :)

[diego]

Do you not know how to spell, or did you just really change the topic?

you're stupid, buddy got his head cut off I bet he goes to triad strip clubs...there it's on topic.:p

[diego]

I prefer to say that scumbags are running the show rather than point out any one skin colour designation. I'm white, I resent people always saying white people are running everything and doing so much evil. I'm not running anything. I'm not corrupt...maybe a little evil?:cool:
I think the same standard should apply...you can't say black people are all welfare bum criminals...so why can you say white people are to blame for all this? The Chinese example shows that it has nothing to do with skin colour, but rather the nature of some people to be corrupt.

dude look at our courts and city hall's it's all white people in ceo positions since the first thanksgiving...other scumbags are taking over but history is a very small thing...there only been 40 something american presidents you can trace most of our ghettoes to white people. and spaniards but the brits and yanks won...it is what it is, we are going to see more rwanda's as it continues to change. this is all very on topic.

[diego]

not "some" people.

There are no people that are not subject to corruption.

In fact, many of our corruptions we are wholly unaware of because they are not deemed to be so.

It is in our nature and a survival instinct to allow for corruption to further our own goals as individuals.

I would say that there are "some" people who are not corrupt as opposed to "some" who are. :)

okay people are people, but territory is something else. My people white people control the territories. we drop bombs as we wish. and have fun doing it too. I also have native people so I'm not too happy about it. I DIDN'T SAY NORTH AMERICAN MULTICULTURAL PEOPLE WITH WHITE SKIN. I said white people.

Personnally, I'd like to give a big shout out to all of the half breeds out there...yall taking over!!:eek:

[SimonM]

you're stupid, buddy got his head cut off I bet he goes to triad strip clubs...there it's on topic.:p

A few things:

1) When I said heads would roll I was being metaphoric, not literal. Most likely he was killed by a single gunshot administered either to the base of the skull from behind or to the heart as this is the standard method of execution in China at this time.

2) He was executed by the Chinese government.

3) He was executed, this is important, for taking bribes from pharmaceutical companies in exchange for licensing medicines that had not been properly tested for consumer safety.

4) The likely covert reason for his execution is the preponderance of food and medicine related scandals that have rocked China over the last two years. These include (but are not limited to):

Toxic red dye in duck eggs.
Melamine in baby formula.
Melamine in animal feed.
Melamine in other, miscellaneous, dairy products.
Brake fluid in toothpaste.
Unsafe medicine.

Now, please allow me to be clear about another thing:

In all of these cases there is absolutely no indication that there was any involvement of Triads. Every one of these cases involved simple malfeasance on behalf of otherwise legitimate businesspeople and allegations of corruption within the food and drug administration who took bribes to look the other way. Although there may be Triad involvement with some corrupt politicians in China they are not a major player in the food and medicine industries. Nor are they major players in the land development issues or natural resource management issues that mark two other areas China has major problems in with regards to corruption.

Furthermore this is not and never should be percieved as an issue of ethnicity. It is related to the current socio-economic conditions present within the nation of the People's Republic of China at this time.

I hope this helps to clarify what is on topic.

If you are in further doubt you can read the article I linked to in the first post.

Oh, and this just came down the pipe today... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7751747.stm)

[bawang]

every time corruption is rampant new dynasty comes. china will survive and live on. when china was mongolfied in yuan dynasty they revived everything, now its is westernized but things will be revived. nothing against western culture just that people in china dont have the moral code and self control because of lack of culture and religion and identity

[SimonM]

Spoken like somebody who has never been to China or spoken to a Chinese person.

China has quite a lot of culture. More than most places in fact. Culture does not necessarily entail the culture that is familliar to us as outsiders but rather entails the system of traditions, beliefs, mores, norms and behaviors that characterize a cohesive identity.
Anyone who has spent time with a Chinese family can see these cultural dynamics in action as plain as day.

Likewise China is religiously diverse, being home to everything from avowed athiests to religious ascetics of many different stripes. The constitution of China recognizes Buddhism, Taoism and Islam as religions that have official sanction.

Finally Chinese people have a powerful and complex sense of identity. Sometimes this can be a source of great strength. Other times it can be part of the problem as part of the Chinese national identity is an awareness both that the nation has suffered from colonialism and a belief that it should not have been so weak that it would.

To be blunt the strength of the Chinese national identity made me more aware of how poorly we Canadians have defined our national identity.

[diego]

A few things:

1) When I said heads would roll I was being metaphoric, not literal. Most likely he was killed by a single gunshot administered either to the base of the skull from behind or to the heart as this is the standard method of execution in China at this time.

2) He was executed by the Chinese government.

3) He was executed, this is important, for taking bribes from pharmaceutical companies in exchange for licensing medicines that had not been properly tested for consumer safety.

4) The likely covert reason for his execution is the preponderance of food and medicine related scandals that have rocked China over the last two years. These include (but are not limited to):

Toxic red dye in duck eggs.
Melamine in baby formula.
Melamine in animal feed.
Melamine in other, miscellaneous, dairy products.
Brake fluid in toothpaste.
Unsafe medicine.

Now, please allow me to be clear about another thing:

In all of these cases there is absolutely no indication that there was any involvement of Triads. Every one of these cases involved simple malfeasance on behalf of otherwise legitimate businesspeople and allegations of corruption within the food and drug administration who took bribes to look the other way. Although there may be Triad involvement with some corrupt politicians in China they are not a major player in the food and medicine industries. Nor are they major players in the land development issues or natural resource management issues that mark two other areas China has major problems in with regards to corruption.

Furthermore this is not and never should be percieved as an issue of ethnicity. It is related to the current socio-economic conditions present within the nation of the People's Republic of China at this time.

I hope this helps to clarify what is on topic.

If you are in further doubt you can read the article I linked to in the first post.

Oh, and this just came down the pipe today... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7751747.stm)
dude i made a ****ing comment...yall are derailing the thread... anyway dude looks like a shmuck and anyone who takes bribes is godless and would do business with criminals.

crickets

[bawang]

Spoken like somebody who has never been to China or spoken to a Chinese person.

is that directed to me simon
u know im chinese right
lol

in response to ur edit, what u said is probably true a few years ago, things are changing

[SimonM]

;) And so I also know you know that I speak truth. :D

[bawang]

you say
"China has quite a lot of culture. More than most places in fact."
but your title is
"The culture of corruption will be the death of china"
i think u contradict urself

[Kansuke]

you're stupid, buddy got his head cut off I bet he goes to triad strip clubs...there it's on topic.:p


Who's stupid? :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

people in china dont have the moral code and self control because of lack of culture and religion and identity



What the hell is that supposed to mean? :eek:

[jo]

Maybe we should behead a few corporate types over here.

- jo

[Kansuke]

Only everything about your ridiculous comment. Obviously folks in China (like people everywhere) have religion, culture, self-control, morality, and identity.





Try to resist the urge to be such a drama queen and you won't be as likely to make unfortunate comments like those above.

[bawang]

i talk the truth about my own country and people like you dont want to hear it that is fine
please dont insult, you would not dare say that to my face and im trying to keep polite

[Kansuke]

and....................................?

[Kansuke]

If you could stop editing your comments it might make the thread easier to read and respond to.

[bawang]

i edit to save space i dont like extra posting
most of my posts were me trying to repond to your nitpicking and btiching, i delete them to stop flooding forums, my aplology guys

hi simon, i was trying to say that the cultgural rlevoluton did a lot of damage to the chinese culture. a lot of the religion, customs, traditions and holidays have been simplified, and in many parts of the country religion and traiditional costums were totally eliminated and had to be reintroduced from other nearby regions. traditional values were replaced by cunbmmunist idealogy and when deng xiaoping slowly abolished that, we had nothing. my opinion is this led to corruption, which is very rampant.

you have to bribe almost every single person higher up in power than you to sruvive. i have bribed from my elementary teacher to my doctor, my relative had to brice to get a job, etc, etc.
of course there are people from all ages and social class in china trying to make a difference, but the task is so overwhelming
instead of punishing the corrupt officials i think china needs to look deeper into its problems. when you have to bribe in your everyday life, whats keeping you from being corrupt when you steps into high power?
i know nobody wants to read about negative things , its depressing but this relates to the topic, i try not to bring this up often, so please try to have an open mind.


i told this guy below me i am from china and situation there isnt good, but he just insults me and says i'm wrong without proof. hes talke like a average internet nerd talking out of his bloddy gaping anus, possibly hemmoroids, im not gonna play his game, sorry about that this is a sensitive topic for me, i get into a blind rage

[Kansuke]

The fact that you feel the need to keep 'adjusting' your comments demonstrates that I was correct in my initial assessment.

Stop with the hyperbole and choose your words more carefully.

[bawang]

suck my left nut

edit: yes oh great one i am wrong about my own country , your vague and confusing one liners and ancient knowledge from dsicovery channel is wise and true, after 50 years of oppresion nothing is wrong in china, we still have velly good culture, we are happies here, me soooooo solly
oh no i have edited my post !!that is not allowed you have defeated me! oh wise cracker internet warrior, yes i am a horrible liar, everything in china is great its just like the tourist bronchours and the national geographic programs, happy rainbow donkey boner

dont talk to me again

[Kansuke]

What a compelling argument... :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

And why do you keep changing your every post?

[SimonM]

you say
"China has quite a lot of culture. More than most places in fact."
but your title is
"The culture of corruption will be the death of china"
i think u contradict urself

Here is the thing Bawang:

There is a difference between THE Culture of China and a culture of specific behaviour within China.

I have a great fondness for China. I lived there, speak mandarin, my wife is Chinese, and the people of Shanxi (most of whom are much to poor to benefit from the corruption in China) are some of the most welcoming and wholesome I have ever met.

That being said I am a strong believer that one should be willing to work to change those things that are wrong with a place / organization / tradition / nation without being unkind. My post was intended in that vein. I think there may have been a disconnect between us with regards to my intent. I hope this helps. :)

If Kansuke is getting on your nerves too much there is always the ignore function. ;)

[bawang]

wow i never knew that, my respect to you man
its nice to know things are still doing good in shanxi, i havent visited in 5 years so anything can happen who knows

[Lucas]

suck my left nut

edit: yes oh great one i am wrong about my own country , your vague and confusing one liners and ancient knowledge from dsicovery channel is wise and true, after 50 years of oppresion nothing is wrong in china, we still have velly good culture, we are happies here, me soooooo solly
oh no i have edited my post !!that is not allowed you have defeated me! oh wise cracker internet warrior, yes i am a horrible liar, everything in china is great its just like the tourist bronchours and the national geographic programs, happy rainbow donkey boner

dont talk to me again

sorry to intrude on the thread, but this was so **** funny. today is soooo slow at work and no one really posting. all my side jobs are done so i am to read a book or do the internet thing.

this made me laugh this morning. lol thanks.

no intention of being negative to kansuke either, just the statement itself is comical.

[SimonM]

wow i never knew that, my respect to you man
its nice to know things are still doing good in shanxi, i havent visited in 5 years so anything can happen who knows

It's much the same as it always was. The people there have eaten bitter for so long that many seem to convert it to sweetness. The mine owners and the governors still drive around in large black sedans (a few more SUVs now too) and occasionally get themselves in trouble when some poor men die a mile underground in an unlicensed coal mine or a mud slide buries a whole village.

And yet, the average person in Shanxi remains welcoming, generous, genial hosts and stalwart friends.

And therein lies the tragedy of China...

Because so many people who live there are such good people - and manage to do such credit to those who would say that human nature is essentially good.

And a small number of (pardon my language) a$sholes ruin it by exploiting and pillaging and taking all they can on the backs of people who are so used to hardship that they simply bear the load stoically.

PS:
Sakura Kim cafe at nearly the precise center of Pingyao remains my favorite quiet hangout spot on earth.

[Kansuke]

Just so you know (but not that it matters, because irrational generalisms are irrational generalisms in any case) but I lived for two years in Shaanxi (not Shanxi).

[SimonM]

Really? Which prefecture? :)

[Kansuke]

Xi'an, in Shaanxi, not all that far from your old stomping grounds.

[SimonM]

About 8 hours bus ride from Lishi in Lvliang prefecture. Never visited... if I was going to go that far by bus it was usually to Beijing, my favorite city on earth.

[Kansuke]

"Favorite city on earth?" :eek:


Why?

[Eddie]

you took a bus to Beijing from Xian? :eek: Dont they hav that speed train thingy that goes to Bejing from Xian?

I hate busses even more than trains in China. If I have to take a train its softsleeper always.

[SimonM]

you took a bus to Beijing from Xian? :eek: Dont they hav that speed train thingy that goes to Bejing from Xian?

No, I took a bus from Lishi to Beijing. If you were to draw a line from Xi'an to Beijing Lishi would be almost exactly 50% of the way along the line.



I hate busses even more than trains in China. If I have to take a train its softsleeper always.

Wimp. :p

Train: Hard Sleeper and Hard Seat.
Bus: Anything that involves a distance of less than 800 kms except for going to Shaolin because it would have involved 3 transfers to get to Luoyang from Lishi by bus.

And Beijing is my favorite city because I love the juxtaposition of historical and modern, Sanliton is a great district for night life, and you can't beat the deals at Xiushueijie as long as you are good at bargaining... plus haggling makes shopping fun!

[GeneChing]

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Let’s hope he’s better at running the global economy.
By SCOTT MESLOW December 25, 2016

President-elect Donald Trump’s Thursday announcement that professor and economist Dr. Peter Navarro will serve as one of his key economic advisors has been anticipated — sometimes with horror — for months. "Should Donald Trump overcome the odds against him now and be elected President," wrote Adam Davidson in The New Yorker in October, "Navarro would likely become the single most powerful economic adviser in the United States."

And here we are, just weeks away from Trump’s inauguration, with Navarro at the head of the new White House National Trade Council, which aims to "shrink our trade deficit, expand our growth, and help stop the exodus of jobs from our shores." He may not ultimately be as powerful as Davidson thinks -- the new council will have little staff or budget, some observers have noted -- but he seems to have Trump’s ear, and that might be power enough.

So who is Navarro, and what can we actually expect from him? The simplest, most digestible, and most revealing answer comes in an unlikely form: a low-budget and nominally nonpartisan documentary called Death By China, written, directed and produced by Navarro himself. As a film critic, I found it an appalling cinematic experience. But it’s a brutally effective, if unsubtle, 79 minutes of propaganda -- which might explain why Trump liked it so much.

Navarro adapted Death By China from his 2011 book of the same name, which argues that China — through a combination of unfair trade practices and low-quality, globally exported products — is becoming "the planet’s most efficient assassin." The film was technically released in theaters (three, to be exact), and grossed a little under $40,000. From there, Navarro took it on the festival circuit, holding screenings and Q&As in cities like Chicago, Cincinnati and Birmingham. The critics who bothered to review it were largely underwhelmed: The Hollywood Reporter deemed it "astonishingly-heavy handed," the Village Voice criticized the "hysterical rhetoric," and The A.V. Club called it "the documentary equivalent of a raving street-corner derelict."

On its official YouTube channel, Death By China is described as "one of the most popular documentaries on Netflix" for the past three years (though it’s unclear how that conclusion was reached, since Netflix doesn’t release its viewership figures). The documentary isn’t available on Netflix anymore, but back in April, the entire film was uploaded to YouTube, alongside a plea to "please share this film far and wide."

Within its first five minutes, Death By China lays out the stakes: 57,000 American factories closed, 25 million Americans can’t find "a decent job," and the United States owes $3 trillion to China. The roots of our alleged economic woes, Navarro argues, can be traced back to 2001, when the United States enthusiastically endorsed Beijing’s entry into the World Trade Organization.

Navarro attempts to prove this point with an array of cherry-picked talking heads, a series of unenlightening man-on-the-street interviews, and — most strikingly — some computer-animated sequences designed to dramatize Navarro’s argument. In one, a knife bearing the label "Made in China" is plunged into the center of the United States, covering the lower half of the country in a sea of blood. In another, missiles of "currency manipulation" and "illegal export subsidies" are fired from cannons and dropped from planes, leaving American cities in rubble. Navarro structures his film around China’s "Weapons of Job Destruction." Everything is cast in the violent, overheated rhetoric of a war with China — a war Navarro argues we’re losing.

These are all standard tactics in the agitprop documentary playbook: Present one side of a political argument with a dizzying array of semi-credentialed talking heads, leaving dissenting voices on the floor of the editing bay. When your logic is lacking, appeal to emotion instead, depicting derelict factories or unhappy-looking American workers. And, because audiences have been conditioned to expect political documentaries to entertain as well as inform, leaven all the messaging with simplistic cartoons, jaunty music and the occasional joke.

Though Navarro is personally responsible for basically everything you see in the film, he enlists the sonorous baritone of Martin Sheen — America’s favorite fictional president — to deliver his talking points. (Yes, the same Martin Sheen who recently appeared in videos urging members of the Electoral College to buck the will of voters and vote against Trump.) Navarro himself appears only briefly, laying out what he views as a practical guide for what the average American can do to combat this threat. "Every time a consumer walks into a Walmart, the first thing they have to do is be aware enough to look for the label. Then, when they pick up that good and it says, 'Made in China,' I want them to think, 'Hmm. It might either break down, or it could kill me, number one. This thing, if I buy it, might cost me, or someone in my family or my friends, their job. Lastly, 'Hey — if I buy this, that money is gonna go over to help finance what is essentially one of the most rapid military build-ups of a totalitarian regime since… when? The '30s. I mean, make no mistake about that."

But beyond this appeal to each individual consumer, Death By China doesn’t actually propose any concrete solutions to the problems Navarro presents — just the standard "spread the word and complain to your congressman." Now that Navarro is in the president-elect’s ear, with the theoretical power to turn this overheated rhetoric into actual U.S. policy, we’re likely to see the actual, real-world consequences of his beliefs. continued next post

[GeneChing]

It is, frankly, easy to see why Navarro’s film was embraced by Trump, who described it as both "right on" and "important" in a blurb proudly posted on Death By China’s website. Death By China’s argument is simplistic, and therefore easy to grasp, because it reduces China into the catch-all boogeyman behind our economic woes. Even more importantly, it scapegoats China in a way that enables the easy campaign-trail rhetoric designed to win over voters who would rather pin the hard, complicated realities of changing technology and shifts in global trade on a single, nefarious foreign agent.

This impulse is best demonstrated by "Land of Trade and Greed," a song Navarro wrote for the movie, which demonizes China from the perspective of a blue-collar industrial worker: "It's not me but my family I wish to feed / Not much, we got simple needs / Too bad they sent our jobs away / As the CEOs get richer / And our jobs all move offshore."

And when you put it in those terms, it’s hard to argue against Death By China. Who wouldn’t sympathize with a blue-collar manufacturer trying to feed his family, or rail against a CEO so eager to pad the bottom line that she doesn’t care hurting individual working-class Americans and America’s economy as a whole? Whose heart wouldn’t be moved by images of Chinese workers toiling in dismal-looking factories, or news stories about the effects of harmful products, since recalled, that were manufactured in China? What we need to resolve these problems, argues one talking head near the end of the movie, is "a Tea Party that’s completely divorced of left or right. A Tea Party that differentiates between right and wrong."

Some of these problems are real, and Navarro is clearly both sincere and well-intentioned. But the problem, of course, is that Death By China also set the terms on which it builds all these arguments, and the reality of the situation is more complicated than the grim picture painted by Navarro. U.S. manufacturing is on the rise, and so are U.S. manufacturing wages. Offshoring is actually down, and "reshoring" — the process of bringing manufacturing jobs back into the United States — has been happening for years, led by companies like General Electric and Walmart, who are both demonized in the film. In practical terms, it seems like the best way to continue rebuilding the U.S. manufacturing base is to invest in education, enabling a new generation to develop the skills that will make them knowledgeable, versatile workers in an industry that increasingly requires complicated and detail-oriented tasks.

In short: Navarro’s approach is overly simplistic, backward-looking, and ultimately dangerous to the U.S. economy, since it so clearly risks retaliation from China. It’s one thing to advocate a sharply defined, nuance-free position when you’re just a college professor trying to get your argument across. But Navarro’s going to be in the White House now, and he may find that dealing with the reality of China is a bit more complex. The United States and China trade some $700 billion in goods and services between them each year--much of it stuff Americans couldn’t afford to buy otherwise.

And China can play this game, too. Already, the country’s state-run press has greeted Navarro’s arrival with alarm. “His appointment is another sign of the confrontational approach the incoming Trump administration seems intent on taking in relations with China,” read an editorial in China Daily. “[This is] no laughing matter.” The Global Times, a hypernationalist tabloid, called on China’s leaders to “discard any illusions and make full preparations for any offensive move by the Trump government,” adding a pointed warning: “The U.S. can no longer push China around today.”

"I urge you to see it," concludes Trump’s blurb for Death By China. And on that, Trump and I agree. I think you should see Death By China. You might not learn much about the reality of the complicated and ever-shifting economic ties between Washington and Beijing, but you will learn a lot about the direction in which Trump’s policy toward China is likely to head—and about the man likely to play such a vital part in altering the fate of the global economy.

Maybe the book is better?

I was about to make a new thread for this, but then I dug up this little treasure from 2008.