What the heck is Jing?

[Hendrik]

There are plenty of chat and disccusion about Lek and Jing (keng in cantonese) and power generation.....etc. and there exist the fantasy parties and ANTI-fantasy parties which argue on this subject.

But what the heck is Jing and Lek ? without a clear understanding what are they there is no way to further discuss about Jing...etc.


Some says CLF has different Jing, WCK has this Jing that keng, Taijin has reel silk Jing....etc does Boxing has Keng too?


For decades now, I really dont see it goes anywhere interm of the understanding of what is Jing. But more and more psuedo science.... fantasy parties or ANTI-fantasy parties being create.

But what is Jing? I bet those in the fantasy parties have no clue and also those in the ANTI-fantasy parties have no clue.

Just my personal opinion.

What do you think?

[Wu Wei Wu]

A psychosomatic sensation and empirically unverifiable truth for some traditional martial artists who believe that a greater depth of understanding comes with using metaphors and symbolism to describe motion.

It is as relevant to combat as 'aether' is to the understanding of the universe.

However, one would think a paradigm shift is beginning to occur:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc

Suki Gosal

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are plenty of chat and disccusion about Lek and Jing (keng in cantonese) and power generation.....etc. and there exist the fantasy parties and ANTI-fantasy parties which argue on this subject.

But what the heck is Jing and Lek ? without a clear understanding what are they there is no way to further discuss about Jing...etc.


Some says CLF has different Jing, WCK has this Jing that keng, Taijin has reel silk Jing....etc does Boxing has Keng too?


For decades now, I really dont see it goes anywhere interm of the understanding of what is Jing. But more and more psuedo science.... fantasy parties or ANTI-fantasy parties being create.

But what is Jing? I bet those in the fantasy parties have no clue and also those in the ANTI-fantasy parties have no clue.

Just my personal opinion.

What do you think?

To ME, jing in regards to striking (fa jing) is best described as "impulse".

[Ernie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rreQAfgjo1k :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now all is clear !

[Infrazael]

Jing is physics at work . . . . when you know what you're doing works and hurts others.

Boxers have good jing in their hands. Because all they do is punch everyday.

That's all there is to it. No psuedo-scientific bull****.

When Chinese gets translated . . . . it becomes diluted and retarded.

[Hendrik]

To ME, jing in regards to striking (fa jing) is best described as "impulse".



That still doesnt describe or explain what is it isnt it?

The term Jing is a very well define and describe term according to chinese classical literature.

[Hendrik]

A psychosomatic sensation and empirically unverifiable truth for some traditional martial artists who believe that a greater depth of understanding comes with using metaphors and symbolism to describe motion.

It is as relevant to combat as 'aether' is to the understanding of the universe.

However, one would think a paradigm shift is beginning to occur:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc

Suki Gosal


These stuffs is exactly confuse the heck out of everyone and doesnt describe or explain what is jing.


think about it , after you what the youtube one get more confuse then more clear about what is going on and what is the sifu trying to show or get across.

[Infrazael]

Jing is like good gung fu . . . . you acquire good jing by practicing those same moves thousands of times, hitting ppl with them, hitting bags, dummies, pads, doing drills, shadowboxing, forms . . . . then u develop good jing.

[Hendrik]

Jing is physics at work . . . . -------

Isnt you are the one who address WCner uses too much physics?

What the heck is physics at work? everything move is physics at work, everything sit still also physics at work. so what the heck is physics at work?




when you know what you're doing works and hurts others. ------

That still doesnt explain what is Jing. one can get a 4 x4 and hit others is that JIng?




Boxers have good jing in their hands. Because all they do is punch everyday. ----


Come on, that also doesnt tell what the He@L is Jing.



That's all there is to it. No psuedo-scientific bull****. ----

That still doesnt says what is jing but it get you more in trouble for nothing is solved.



When Chinese gets translated . . . . it becomes diluted and retarded.-----

That still is an alibi. are you saying the whole western of the earth have no clue of what the heck is a correct translation?

You have all these

棋盘山上砍过树，故宫城里盗过墓，此生行尽天涯路，沈阳儿女就是酷.

in you post and you dont translate Jing precisely?




You see we need to get real here. are we discussing and talking about something we have no clue? for example WHAT THE HECK is JING?

until we know what is JING what to discuss?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That still doesnt describe or explain what is it isnt it?

Actually, if you look up Impulse in physics, you will get a great explanation of fa jing.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rreQAfgjo1k :rolleyes:

Are you sure you are in the correct discussion forum?

or you are similar to all of us here where no one knows what the heck is one talking about ? so it doesnt matter . hahaha

[Hendrik]

Actually, if you look up Impulse in physics, you will get a great explanation of fa jing.


Impulse in physics still doesnt said what is jing? impulse can be anything.


IE

This is impulse too for some

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rreQAfgjo1k


What is Jing and what is Fa Jing? why is it called Fa Jing?




Honestly, these are all the problem --- argue for arguement shake. and in conclusion after decades and everyone have the senior or advance title... but little knows what is going on.

and then when one doesnt want to admit one have no clue. Challenge or saying "oh, I can beat you " is used as a brute force substitute to conclude the subject. So, after a few decades no one knows what is going on.

[couch]

OK. I give up, Hendrik. Tell us what Jing is.

[couch]

A psychosomatic sensation and empirically unverifiable truth for some traditional martial artists who believe that a greater depth of understanding comes with using metaphors and symbolism to describe motion.

It is as relevant to combat as 'aether' is to the understanding of the universe.

However, one would think a paradigm shift is beginning to occur:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc

Suki Gosal

That's it! I'm giving up Wing Chun! There are too many of these videos around now to deny the truth and power of Chi Blasts.

[David Jamieson]

*giggles*

you said jing.

i believe you mean "jin" i guess it sounds like jing. like "fa jin" or power issuance.

but jing is sperm. :)

[Hendrik]

*giggles*

you said jing.

i believe you mean "jin" i guess it sounds like jing. like "fa jin" or power issuance.

but jing is sperm. :)



Does pronounce Jing in a different way tell you what it is? It doesnt right?

what is power issuance? fantasy?

[Hendrik]

That's it! I'm giving up Wing Chun! There are too many of these videos around now to deny the truth and power of Chi Blasts.


I totally agree with you.


These stuffs are mainly just totally confuse everyone.

This cannot be conclude as a Chi blast. There are multiple actions in the video based on different phenomenon. IMHO.

[Hendrik]

OK. I give up, Hendrik. Tell us what Jing is.

Ok

Here is what I have heard.
To put it in today's term.



1,

JIng is a dynamic vector quantity .

Jing means "Force flow with guidance". No more no less.

Those who study physics can view Jing as a DIRECTED Force Vector which is flowing in a direction in the 3 D space.


Fa Jing means " Activate the Force Flow with guidance"




2,
Lek is a static scalar quantity.

Lek simply means power.






3, Jing can be analysed/model with Physics to a certain degree but not all. Why? because The guidance part is alive. That is where the Intention or Yee comes into play. Yee or intention Provide the Guidance or direction for this Force Flow.



4, Thus, Using/applied the Lek (power) and issuing/activating the Jing ( guided Force flow ) are two different things.

IE:

One could hammer a nail with Lek or power. However, Does one activating/issuing a guided force flow into the nail to drive into the wood?



5,

so what do one do when one practicing SLT? applied power to the movement or to activate/issuing/emitting Force flow guide by the intention?





So where is chi comes into play? and so is the so called Chi blast a chi blast or just a phenomenon cause by the guide force flow? and what about Shen? which in the Kuen kuit says " Yee moves Shen is there" or the moment the Intention is set the Soul / life force is spontaneously arive......

NOThing psuedo science everything is clear and straight forward. But if one have no clue what is what then that is the problem. Not to mention, some go even further to become an ANTI party where ANTI CHi ANTi Jing....etc those are really really missing the point.

So, doesnt the Boxing has Jing? sure, look at the falling step what is that? Jing!

[couch]

5, so what do one do when one practicing SLT?

IMO, all I'm doing with SNT is reprogramming my body structure.

[Hendrik]

IMO, all I'm doing with SNT is reprogramming my body structure.



That is totally absurd. No insult Pun. that is a wrong direction. IMHHHHO.

Reprogram to what? Can you live like yesterday? You body changes every second. your body is not a car or robot, it is a every changing flow of energy. Not to mention if you cant get into the silence, trying to clear the cell's memory is just hopeless.

are you standing there denying your nature and subject yourself to a fix drill call SNT according to your sifu's intepretation? that is absurd.

Does SNT teach one how to sit in the toilet in the perfect way?



See, IMHHHHO, SLT has two states.

1, get one to enter the gate of no gate which is the silence or the source or the limitless or get one out of one's Mind/body habitual box.

2. in that state, one practicing how the flow of force flow.


Thus, It said, Using Silence to lead the action. and only after one could enter into the silence, then one could lead the action. and lead the action is just handling the flow of force.


For the past 60 years, things just pile up or high and deep that everyone, me include, is totally lost. and keep fantasying something which is illusive.






The union of Body and mind is not about traing the body to totally controlled by the mind.

The union of the Body and mind is letting go of your body and mind such as when you enter into sleep and the body and mind union into the grace of GOD without intention.

That is the "Zen and Martial art becomes one or unify" . That is the Non dual. ( It is a Dual if either the mind or body is the master, Non dual means let go of both and the truth surface. )

and over there you flow effortless with

"comes accept, Goes return it back, let go thus forward, using the silence to lead the action."


further more,

When the chinese says Sum as in Kuen Choong Sum faat or punch source from heart.

That heart is not the mind, it is the buddha nature or the silence that "thing" which is beyond the mind and body. That " thing" which could be clearly know when both the body and mind are let go.



Try it and you sure will get there. but if you stuck at your mind and body level, you will never get there. and always limit or box by your mind and body.






There is no mind there thus there is no fear. there is no body there thus it is not subject to a certain fix way of movements... and Jing is just that flow. Thus, WCK is limitless and extremly simple.


Get the WHAT and how will surface by itself lively with unfix flow similar to the flow of the water. The water have a direction-- WHAT-- but the flow --HOW- is changes every instant and can be anything. Trying to fix a HoW such as to claim a perfect proper way to do Tan Sau is missing the point. That is trying to fix the How.

however, eventhought one can accept any type of How, one never forget or lost the What.






OK. you dont have to agree with me and I am not expecting you to. but I invite you to try this path and see for yourself. the path beyond the mind and body but not exclude the mind and body.






BTW, also forget about those ANTI Ching....etc. with those type of mentality one could not even relax oneself ; not to mention enter into the silence and attain advance martial art state. It cannot be done that way.

IE can one stuff oneself with hatre and practicing prayers? even if one do that one is going no where. When one practice prayer one needs to practice forgive or let go otherwise it wont work.

Otherwise, one is limited by that vengence, that hate , that....etc. if one's mind is stuck in those box. one's body by defaut stuck.


Praise the spring means enter into the silence and live beyond time and limit.

In Fact, even the mind, our mind is untrust worthy. it keeps changing and influence by our emotion. You dont have to believe me. Get into deep prayer then you will See for yourself. or go watch some horror movie or sexual movie or... see how your mind got influence.


Thus, silence is also LET GO LET GOD. only when one LET GO the Mind/body, Surrender everything, and LET GOD another paradigm surface. and that is entering into the silence or gate of no gate. Those are beyond imagination by the brain or mind but get get there by action.

Similar to falling into a sleep, can one think oneself into Sleep? no. but one can just drop it or let go and falling into a sleep. we do that every night without the mind. but then we keep think the mind is the master, NOPE, the mind is not.



Finally, the ancient Chinese says, " Use intention to direct Chi, with Chi one transport one's physical body. " Thus, while the chi transporting the physical body, Jing is activated. It can be transporting my own physical body or it can be other's physical body. but the process is clearly address. and Chi is just a medium at a certain level of flow. So there is no Chi-blast. there needs a wholistic flow which cause the BLAST.

that is the way of how things works. Simple stuffs


Forget about thinking those fighting thoughts, those fighting thoughts or selfdefence thoughts are just going to attract what you think--- fighting, defending. Think happy thoughts and happy comes. why so misserable keep thinking anti and fighting and defending? wasting all the energy. it is a waste of energy every day drill like in 1850 to anti qing and the qing never comes because it is 2010!

if one cant manage one's mind how can one manage one's force flow properly?
Thus, SLT. Keep your mind Clean --- silence. SIU NIEM TAU.

DONT THINK bad thoughts, misserable thoughts, bad thoughts, struggle thoughts, poor thoughts....... Etc.

STAY in silience, peace and harmony and all is WELL. That is the way of SLT SNT.






Have a happy Thanks giving.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gZAzv1oXAfk

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Hendrik,

I just came across this and whilst it is off-topic I think the debate between the traditionalists and the skeptics is worth watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TUz4idg-jA

***It is not intended to be insulting to you (or anyone else) for that matter.

Suki

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,

I just came across this and whilst it is off-topic I think the debate between the traditionalists and the skeptics is worth watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TUz4idg-jA

***It is not intended to be insulting to you (or anyone else) for that matter.

Suki



Fine with me.
Free world. everyone is free to choose what they like. if you love to dream why not that is your choice.

Believe or athiest (sp?) doesnt matter, same old same old never ending debate since the begining of human kind.

believe or not believe still is within the realm of mind. those who believe today can become unbeliever tomorrow and switching back and fort.



For me this is a waste of life. debating within the duality and struggle to be right or wrong via one's ignorance mind is just living in suffering.

similar to debating who got the most proper tan sau, those are suffering.back to the topic.

so wat the heck is Jing?

[David Jamieson]

fa jin - power issuance.

the powers - short - long - falling

short power= percussive sharp shock

long power= steady increasing push

falling power = pressing short or pressing long

fa jin is demonstrated with force.

two structures can have the same appearance outwardly, but are not the same when it comes to exertion of force while maintaining correct structure.

corrrect structure, combined with rapid exertion of force = power issuance or fa jin.

It's not so hard to understand in the doing of it so much as it is trying to wrap your head around it when your only source is words on a page. :)

[Hendrik]

fa jin - power issuance.

the powers - short - long - falling

short power= percussive sharp shock

long power= steady increasing push

falling power = pressing short or pressing long

fa jin is demonstrated with force.

two structures can have the same appearance outwardly, but are not the same when it comes to exertion of force while maintaining correct structure.

corrrect structure, combined with rapid exertion of force = power issuance or fa jin.

It's not so hard to understand in the doing of it so much as it is trying to wrap your head around it when your only source is words on a page. :)


For sake of discussion,




1, short power is not equal to percussive sharp shock. short and shock are two different things.

2, long power also doesnt egual to steady increasing push.


3, corrrect structure, combined with rapid exertion of force = power issuance or fa jin.

what is a correct structure? what is a rapid exertion of force?



5, So what is the different between Lek and Jing?



6, It's not so hard to understand in the doing of it so much as it is trying to wrap your head around it when your only source is words on a page. :) ---


Doing is certainly is better then fantasying.

most people like me love to think that way. however, thinking that way doesnt mean one knows what it is. IMHO. There are much much more then that layers and layers of training....etc


if some one think that is so simple,
Take a look of the evident of , even if one's read most of the Taiji classic and doing Taiji for decades such as those Taiji practioners, how many of them knows fajing beside some demonstration which is only worthed for demonstration.

take a look at the old movie of the taiji and crane challenge in hongkong. see what is the reality. These people train and also read alots....

[anerlich]

Does SNT teach one how to sit in the toilet in the perfect way?

Um there's a seat there that most people use.

I don't think there is a correct way to sit IN the toilet. Unless that's one of those Shaolin Temple secrets people keep telling (or rather, NOT telling) me about.

What a strange thread ...:rolleyes:

[RGVWingChun]

I just read an article that described "jing" as being able to "release" or "transfer" energy from your body (through good physics) into another body. Basically it is achieved, from my own experience through relaxation and proper structure in techniques achieved through repetition of good and proper training. Biu Jee works Jing

[kung fu fighter]

I just read an article that described "jing" as being able to "release" or "transfer" energy from your body (through good physics) into another body. Basically it is achieved, from my own experience through relaxation and proper structure in techniques achieved through repetition of good and proper training. Biu Jee works Jing

Best answer i have heard thus far on this subject including Hendrik's usual Hocus Pocus.

[Hendrik]

Um there's a seat there that most people use.

I don't think there is a correct way to sit IN the toilet. Unless that's one of those Shaolin Temple secrets people keep telling (or rather, NOT telling) me about.

What a strange thread ...:rolleyes:


You are right.

if there is no a correct way to sit in the toilet but there are lots of nature way of shi*ting based on the body needs or condition, why practice SLT/SNT similar to a robot or practice some shaolin temple secrets or structure?

why even believe and following those who claim to know the most correct secret of doing SLT/SNT who doesnt know the nature of human being in a simple way such as Shi*ting which human body needs naturally everyday? does one needs to learn a secret structure on how to sit on the toilet?


Sure the thread is strange for those who keep his mind in a box and forget shi*ting is just a nature act needs to be address.



There is no different with Jing, Jin, Keng....etc

[Hendrik]

I just read an article that described "jing" as being able to "release" or "transfer" energy from your body (through good physics) into another body. Basically it is achieved, from my own experience through relaxation and proper structure in techniques achieved through repetition of good and proper training. Biu Jee works Jing

You got half of the story and still need to know atleast another half of the story. IMHO. keep up the good job!

[Paul T England]

Get a copy of Martial Mechanics by Sifu Phillip Starr...Very good introduction to power, structure and all things martial.

Paul

[Hendrik]

Get a copy of Martial Mechanics ...Very good introduction to power, structure and all things martial.

Paul



http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1583942114/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link


IMHO,

looking at the cover page, feel the stress of the model, look at the angle of her hold wrist and elbow..... it is hold it is not flow..

anyone who knows Jing will not use this picture as cover page.

[bawang]

hi guys, "jin" is explosive power. crushing power is "li". northern style rotate the hips. southern style vibrates the hips. that's it. all the "jin"s are the same in gung fu.
jing is semen lol. i have good fa jing

[CFT]

The character for "ging" in Mandarin has two pinyin:

"jing" is the adjective
"jin" is the noun

So "faat ging" should be "fa jin" as some have posted.

[anerlich]

You are right.

Yes. Now shut up.

[Mr Punch]

looking at the cover page, feel the stress of the model, look at the angle of her hold wrist and elbow..... it is hold it is not flow..

anyone who knows Jing will not use this picture as cover page.Er Hendrik, don't judge a book by its cover! 9 times out of 10 the cover is chosen between a designer and the publisher and is NOT the choice of the author. Don't know if this book is any good, but just saying.

Otherwise, like what you're saying so far, and nothing to add other than pointless speculation, so I'm back to reading.

[David Jamieson]

For sake of discussion,




1, short power is not equal to percussive sharp shock. short and shock are two different things. yes it is, i think you have been mislead if you think it isn't exactly that

2, long power also doesnt egual to steady increasing push. yes it does, powers are about "time" not "space" again, you have been mislead or are unstudied on teh subject


3, corrrect structure, combined with rapid exertion of force = power issuance or fa jin.

what is a correct structure? what is a rapid exertion of force? if you are asking these questions, you shouldn't be in a forum, you should be in a beginners ma class



5, So what is the different between Lek and Jing? the spelling and the meaning



6, It's not so hard to understand in the doing of it so much as it is trying to wrap your head around it when your only source is words on a page. :) ---


Doing is certainly is better then fantasying. you bring up fantasy a lot. I suggest training instead to get understanding of these things

most people like me love to think that way. however, thinking that way doesnt mean one knows what it is. IMHO. There are much much more then that layers and layers of training....etc thinking is not training, training is where you will gain understanding


if some one think that is so simple,
Take a look of the evident of , even if one's read most of the Taiji classic and doing Taiji for decades such as those Taiji practioners, how many of them knows fajing beside some demonstration which is only worthed for demonstration. most chen players are more than familiar with the idea of power issuance or explosive power or whatever you wish to call fa jin

take a look at the old movie of the taiji and crane challenge in hongkong. see what is the reality. These people train and also read alots... that movie demonstrates the poor quality of those people's training as compared to the training of today or the training that actually deals with physical combat. BOth are completely pathetic in their abilities and it is harshly apparent

am I missing something here? The topic seems rather straight to the point. I think many have spoken directly to it and answered it. Hendrik, why are you convoluting things more by being contradictory or rejecting the answers in favour of ??
I don't know what you are in favour of , but you are rejecting appropriate answers .

[sanjuro_ronin]

The easiets way for a layman to understand Fa jin is the analogy of a sneeze.
Of course it can't be described per say, only seen and felt.
Much like trying to describe being choked out or kicked in the balls.

[Mr Punch]

yes it is, i think you have been mislead if you think it isn't exactly thatOr you have. I'm with this:


1, short power is not equal to percussive sharp shock. short and shock are two different things. I've felt short power that has been deep, not percussive, more reverb or balance-crushing, and from boxers and TMAers.


yes it does, powers are about "time" not "space" again, you have been mislead or are unstudied on teh subjectRude boy! Again, I'm rather with Hendrik:
2, long power also doesnt egual to steady increasing push.Of course it isn't a push.

OK, NOW I'm back to reading!

[David Jamieson]

Or you have. I'm with this:

I've felt short power that has been deep, not percussive, more reverb or balance-crushing, and from boxers and TMAers.

Rude boy! Again, I'm rather with Hendrik:Of course it isn't a push.

OK, NOW I'm back to reading!



You are entitled to form your own opinions and conclusions about anything i suppose.

I will have to disagree with you as I use this stuff regularly (read: pretty much daily)

I can physically demonstrate it, which is probably better than writing it down. lol

[Hendrik]

Er Hendrik, don't judge a book by its cover! 9 times out of 10 the cover is chosen between a designer and the publisher and is NOT the choice of the author. Don't know if this book is any good, but just saying.

Otherwise, like what you're saying so far, and nothing to add other than pointless speculation, so I'm back to reading.



you could be right on the cover.


However,

On,

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1583942114/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

click on to the "surprise me." to see for yourself.

my take is the power generation level in the book is a level lower then the general Kyokushin or Mua Thai school. it is staying in the 19 60 Karate era. IMHO

[CFT]

I'm not learned in the subject at hand, but to me "lik" is raw strength. You can have it naturally or even build it via sheer physical work/training. So you have bigger muscles, stronger tendons, etc. But it is not technique specific.

Now faat ging/fa jin to me is a technique to express that raw strength. It sets the parameters of distance, timing and duration.

I liked the hammer and nail analogy. Having "lik", you can just bash the nail into the wood in one or more attempts. But the nail might be skewed, bent, etc. If you have good technique you should be able to hit it once with the right amount of force such that it will go straight in with no deviation.

CMA applies the concept of ging to more than percussive striking though which confuses the heck out of me. What is silk reeling ging, soft/cotton (min) ging, listening (teng) ging? Is it as "simple" as touch sensitivity?

Examples of non-MA ging that I have seen:

the chop of the butcher/roast meats man
the noodle puller who creates long thin strands of noodles without breaking the dough
the Chinese chef who tosses the wok with seemingly little effort and still catch the food


Hmmm ... all seem to be food related ... time for lunch! :D

[Hendrik]

1, short power is not equal to percussive sharp shock. short and shock are two different things. ---H


yes it is, i think you have been mislead if you think it isn't exactly that ----David


please explain what and why it is the same thing for you.






2, long power also doesnt egual to steady increasing push. yes it does, powers are about "time" not "space" --H


again, you have been mislead or are unstudied on teh subject --David


Again,
please explain what and why it is the same thing for you.






3, corrrect structure, combined with rapid exertion of force = power issuance or fa jin.

what is a correct structure? what is a rapid exertion of force? ----H

if you are asking these questions, you shouldn't be in a forum, you should be in a beginners ma class ----David



principle is principle,
Again, I am interested in your view of WHAT and why on the subject.








6, It's not so hard to understand in the doing of it so much as it is trying to wrap your head around it when your only source is words on a page. --- David


Doing is certainly is better then fantasying. ----- H



you bring up fantasy a lot. I suggest training instead to get understanding of these things ----- David


For me, Training without understanding WHAT is it is a dissaster.








if some one think that is so simple,
Take a look of the evident of , even if one's read most of the Taiji classic and doing Taiji for decades such as those Taiji practioners, how many of them knows fajing beside some demonstration which is only worthed for demonstration. ----- H


most chen players are more than familiar with the idea of power issuance or explosive power or whatever you wish to call fa jin ------David


Are you a Chen players?





take a look at the old movie of the taiji and crane challenge in hongkong. see what is the reality. These people train and also read alots... ---- H



that movie demonstrates the poor quality of those people's training as compared to the training of today or the training that actually deals with physical combat.

BOth are completely pathetic in their abilities and it is harshly apparent --- David


IMHO, I would say something wrong with the whole system instead of on the people.







am I missing something here? The topic seems rather straight to the point. I think many have spoken directly to it and answered it.

Hendrik, why are you convoluting things more by being contradictory or rejecting the answers in favour of ?? ----- David


Simple, because I am not satisfied with the answer.





I don't know what you are in favour of , but you are rejecting appropriate answers . ---- David


Perhaps I am not favour of anything but i am rejecting everything which is not Wholistic or partial.

Perhaps there is no single answer but lots of answers and changing answers?



__________________

[Hendrik]

The easiets way for a layman to understand Fa jin is the analogy of a sneeze.
Of course it can't be described per say, only seen and felt.
Much like trying to describe being choked out or kicked in the balls.


Honestly, IMHO, the sneeze analogy can only analogy partial of the fa jin. for it doesnt tell what and how to sneeze or activate at will and what and how to direct the force flow to the target.

IMHO, the analog cant be described per say because it is missing other two components. and thus, it is not about the analogy but it is about fail to identify the components.

without be able to know every details that cause un repeatable issue.

Thus, in the Kuen kuit it says, ten thousands variation begin from the small details.

we call our art the Siu Lien Tau or the Essence training of the details. the power of this training is beable to laser sharply knowing the details and thus have an excellent handling on the subject.

[Hendrik]

You are entitled to form your own opinions and conclusions about anything i suppose.

I will have to disagree with you as I use this stuff regularly (read: pretty much daily)

I can physically demonstrate it, which is probably better than writing it down. lol




could you please describe what you propose instead of going toward you you and I I where lead to ego and not the subject.


as I mention above let's answer WHAT and WHy and HOW instead of I can do it I know it , You dont know....etc. those are not contribute to understanding or knowing the subject.




For me, Short is not equal to shock. certainly not.


Short Jin,

In general, Shot is refer to (or for describing ) how long the jin's effective distance (ie short extended physical movement , short penetration range) or short time / fast acceleration at generation.


Shock Jin

shock is the characteristics of the effect.

Shock has different charecteristics
IE penetrate deep and then explode, shatter in the surface, deep shatter....


after one has master the above, one can combine or fuse them together in any way one desire. But Shock and Short are not the same things.





Yee play a big part of these fajin because Yee is the component which Guided the Jin (missile) and decide how, where, and when the "missile" directed and activate.


Thus, if one have no handle in one's mind , the Yee will certainly fuzzy. if one have no experience in the silence or the shen, the Yee will certainly not clear......

This is the part of jin which physics doesnt reach. and this is the part of the Jin that most doesnt get it and stays/limit mainly at the physical level only without a full mastering.


Full mastering means clear , precise, sharp, details handling. without that quality repeatable fa jin is impossible and that explain why everyone is speaking about Jin but not many mastering it. IMHO.



So, David, you turn to describe and explain why your Short and Shock jin is one thing?

[David Jamieson]

you aren't seeing the forest because the trees are in the way. :)

seriously, martial practice is less about words and the meanings of words.

short sharp shock is what i use as the description. that's what it is. If you chose definition 3 for shock from dictionary number 2 then yes, meaning becomes unclear and can even be contrary.

however, physical demonstration or visceral reality is the best teacher of these concepts. One can gloss over things here in a forum and share concepts.

But this is really going down into the weeds and losing sight of what is.

no ego about it. but this thread is worthless if there is no conclusion to the query.
Use the literal definitions if you need to, but "doing" is way more valuable. :)

most all the possible written answers are already here.

[Hendrik]

I'm not learned in the subject at hand, but to me "lik" is raw strength. You can have it naturally or even build it via sheer physical work/training. So you have bigger muscles, stronger tendons, etc. But it is not technique specific.

Now faat ging/fa jin to me is a technique to express that raw strength. It sets the parameters of distance, timing and duration.

I liked the hammer and nail analogy. Having "lik", you can just bash the nail into the wood in one or more attempts. But the nail might be skewed, bent, etc. If you have good technique you should be able to hit it once with the right amount of force such that it will go straight in with no deviation.

CMA applies the concept of ging to more than percussive striking though which confuses the heck out of me. What is silk reeling ging, soft/cotton (min) ging, listening (teng) ging? Is it as "simple" as touch sensitivity?

Examples of non-MA ging that I have seen:

the chop of the butcher/roast meats man
the noodle puller who creates long thin strands of noodles without breaking the dough
the Chinese chef who tosses the wok with seemingly little effort and still catch the food


Hmmm ... all seem to be food related ... time for lunch! :D



good analogy for the first level of understanding.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, do we have any videos of "jin' ??

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;898253]you aren't seeing the forest because the trees are in the way. :)

seriously, martial practice is less about words and the meanings of words.

short sharp shock is what i use as the description. that's what it is. If you chose definition 3 for shock from dictionary number 2 then yes, meaning becomes unclear and can even be contrary. -----



if your "short jin" is a fusion of different components, that is fine. make it clear so others understand what you mean.

and also Words are important, because words is communication. words communicate to others what one means and what one knows.





however, physical demonstration or visceral reality is the best teacher of these concepts. One can gloss over things here in a forum and share concepts. ----



how likely is a neuclear bomb can be constructed
if it is not theoritically proven do able within the law of physics?


and also,

How can others know what kind of forest is it when one doesnt describe what kind of trees is within the forest?

and ofcorse there is the question of do one knows the trees? if one keep avoid to describe the trees?





But this is really going down into the weeds and losing sight of what is. -----


May be it is not losing sight but not use to having a clear and sharp details discussion where things needs to be clear and not fuzzy?





no ego about it. -----


read the post, ego or not see if the signature is there. Ego is a habitual stuffs beyond mind or what one think or claim.





but this thread is worthless if there is no conclusion to the query.
Use the literal definitions if you need to, but "doing" is way more valuable. :) ------


You are certainly respected and entitle to your opinion.

as in the study of any subject, detail Literal definitions are always a must for it is with the details lay the mastering.

to build a skyscrapper one got to know even the smallest screw and nut of it. That is mastery.

and there is no such thing as the conclusion of ONE and ONLY one TRUE SKYSCRAPPER in the reality.



most all the possible written answers are already here.----

You still didnt tell us if you are a Chen Taiji practitioner. :D

[Hendrik]

So, do we have any videos of "jin' ??


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaPxa-eZss

falling step jin

[David Jamieson]

most scientific advances aren't born of theory but rather they are born of accidents and incidents that occur while looking for something else.

I can appreciate having some kind of intellectual understanding, but words are the most corruptible vehicle of teaching and subsequently the most useless form of understanding when it comes to martial arts.

there is a difference between talking about something and thinking you understood as opposed to actually physically being shown something and really intrinsically understanding.

I reiterate, there is more value in "doing" than in all the thought processes that follow or lead up.

One of the great aspects of shaolin kungfu for instance is Ch'an and it's complementary state to martial arts practice.

No mind, just do.

This is key and will bring more understanding than mere words.

anyone can build castles in the sand, but these are not the foundations of real kingdom.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaPxa-eZss

falling step jin

Ah, I see what YOU mean by "jin".

[Hendrik]

most scientific advances aren't born of theory but rather they are born of accidents and incidents that occur while looking for something else.------

I am not scientific advance, however we know in this world that from building a car to a skyscrapper, theoritical details is needed for the process of repeatable quality in quantity.





I can appreciate having some kind of intellectual understanding, but words are the most corruptible vehicle of teaching and subsequently the most useless form of understanding when it comes to martial arts. -------



the use of words are corruptive or not that is the choice of the user.

words are just for communication, the bottom line is how true and how clear and how experience the person who intended to pass the information.







there is a difference between talking about something and thinking you understood as opposed to actually physically being shown something and really intrinsically understanding. ------


Sure, there is a different between think and speculation and pure description of the subject.

as an example with the Short Jin and Shock jin, there is no need of thinking or speculation. just describe what is short jin and shock jin and the reality is there.

and ofcause, the issue is can one clearly describe what one experience? if not then either one has no clear experience in the details or one is not good at communication or one simple dont want to communicate.



I reiterate, there is more value in "doing" than in all the thought processes that follow or lead up. ----

There certainly have some truth in what you said but that is still a partial truth.



One of the great aspects of shaolin kungfu for instance is Ch'an and it's complementary state to martial arts practice.

No mind, just do. -------


one certainly can qoute that but one got to describe what is no mind, how to get to no mind, and who is the master when there is no mind before qouting No Mind, just do.

Otherwise, one is just do a talking zen where the mind is using the qoutation for one's ego shake but unconscious about it.

So, what is No mind?





This is key and will bring more understanding than mere words.

anyone can build castles in the sand, but these are not the foundations of real kingdom. ------


Sure,

but until you describe what is NO mind and how to get there.

Until then what different between you and those who of us who use intellecture mind trying to grasp the NO mind?

[David Jamieson]

language and words are highly inadequate for what you are asking in relation to "no mind" and what it is as well as descriptives for concepts on how energy is working when we move through time and space.

therefore, i cannot tell you, but you can show yourself! :)
I can indicate where a good point is to cross the river, but I, and for that matter, no one else can do the crossing of that river.

now, if we are talking about who taught what to whom, discussion is easy because it's all just facts and figures. But deeper concepts cannot be described in the manner that you are asking. You are better off being physically shown or physically directed to the starting point and the knowing will be yours after undertaking the practice.

Theory is only inkling that is yet to be proven. Proof cannot be provided except by action and consequence. This is the engineer vs the architect idea. Ultimately, both depend on the builder, who may or may not have different ways of getting it done and it is the workers success or the consequence of their action that proves the architect or the engineer or both were right or wrong.

:p

[Hendrik]

language and words are highly inadequate for what you are asking in relation to "no mind" ------


This is totally not true.


The fact are as the following:

The Buddha and Boddhisatva themselve describe the practice from "with mind" toward "no Mind" including the mile stones in great details and very clearly.

The purpose is so that people dont get misleading.


The following is the Chan teaching/ instruction since the Buddha's time to present day, practice by the Chan Pratiach of the past, present, and future.

This is the process of how from MInd become NO Mind.

The Shurangama Sutra:

“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.


Now, have one reach the state of entered the flow? how far has one's journey gone? have one attain the state of the Still Extinction?

If one doesnt even aware of these above but keep saying No Mind, forget about it, those are Talking Zen. Their No Mind, Just Do" is simply means they let thier HABIT to run their action. That is just totally off the mark of Zen. But get stuck in the ignorance of not even knowing what they are doing.

Thus, due to this ignorance, they cannot clearly describe every details because they are clueless. as for the Buddha and Zen Patriach they describe every details of the path.






and what it is as well as descriptives for concepts on how energy is working when we move through time and space. therefore, i cannot tell you, but you can show yourself! :) ----


You are contraditing yourself.

You talked about NO Mind above. When there is NO Mind, what is energy? what is Time ? what is Space ? and what is Moving? are there such thing as energy, time, space, moving..?



You cannot tell me because you have never experience what is No Mind or you dont like to communicate or.....etc

that is your freedom. Everything is ok with me.



I can indicate where a good point is to cross the river, but I, and for that matter, no one else can do the crossing of that river.----------

hmmmm.

Can one who dont even know what is a river indicate how to cross a river?
Can one who have never left the MIND into the No Mind experience shows others what is No Mind?



LEt's get back to the topic.

could you explain your point on "long power= steady increasing push"

[SAAMAG]

man I just skimmed the last few posts and STILL got a headache. Hendrick, do you ACTUALLY practice a martial art or are you just into reading about metaphysical crap?

[Hendrik]

man I just skimmed the last few posts and STILL got a headache. -------


read those partial differential physics equation or state variable control system matrix which describe force field and see which one will give you more headache. :D

certainly no every subject is for everyone. But if one intend to get deep to the root, then partial differential equation and systems state characteristics matrix are un avoidable




Hendrick, do you ACTUALLY practice a martial art or are you just into reading about metaphysical crap?


Can one practice martial art without living and breathing and thinking?

Can one seperate practice martila art without eating?

What is not related?



So what the Heck is Jing or Jin for you if you are a martial artist?

[SAAMAG]

I know jing as "vibrating energy". Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like intellectual discussion now and again...but there comes a point when it's a moot point (like now) and after that people just talk to talk.

Instead of talking, I spend most of my time working on my techniques, fighting, engaging in hands on applications, etc. Yes, you have to talk a little bit to relay information, but your body knows more than you do on how to adapt to what you're trying to accomplish. Most of the things like breathing -- are autonomic. Meaning you shouldn't have to think about it all that much (actually not at all).

When you run for example, your body breathes as it normally does until it reaches the precipice upon which it is no longer capable of efficient performance (that's the threshold upon which one needs to improve). You go a little beyond that, but not too far, than call it a day. Next time, you go a little further, and a little further. Your body naturally adapts all the systems involved in the action, without any metaphysical thinking needed.

Same thing goes for fighting or any other physical endeavor. Remember that martial arts at it's core--is fighting.

[Hendrik]

I know jing as "vibrating energy". Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like intellectual discussion now and again...but there comes a point when it's a moot point (like now) and after that people just talk to talk.

Instead of talking, I spend most of my time working on my techniques, fighting, engaging in hands on applications, etc. Yes, you have to talk a little bit to relay information, but your body knows more than you do on how to adapt to what you're trying to accomplish. Most of the things like breathing -- are autonomic. Meaning you shouldn't have to think about it all that much (actually not at all).

When you run for example, your body breathes as it normally does until it reaches the precipice upon which it is no longer capable of efficient performance (that's the threshold upon which one needs to improve). You go a little beyond that, but not too far, than call it a day. Next time, you go a little further, and a little further. Your body naturally adapts all the systems involved in the action, without any metaphysical thinking needed.

Same thing goes for fighting or any other physical endeavor. Remember that martial arts at it's core--is fighting.



Thank you for contributing Van!

[TenTigers]

well, the physics/physiology descriptions are all well and good, but when you add into the equation,"Yi Leads Ch'i" etc, things start to change.
I know from my study of SPM, that I can get good power from my strikes, good ging, etc.
BUT-when I have real intent-true desire to blast my opponent - this is when the true power comes out.
(and the hardest part is when doing two-man drills,doing this and just at the last nanosecond pull the strike from making contact)
When I don't have this intent, my teacher can always tell.
"No. No power."
"You didn't get your power out"
When you play with another, you can feel this intent. You get that,"Holy sheet! He's really trying to hurt me-That would've killed me, had it connected!" feeling.
There becomes a difference between a strike that while it most definately hurt your opponent, will not damage him, and one that will.
This intent, makes the difference.
I cannot explain it any other way. It is a feeling.
I know some of you can explain this in better terms.
So, have at it. What are your thoughts?

oh, BTW-I would prefer to hear from those who have experienced this exact thing and know what I am referring to, rather than those who sit on the sidelines and cast stones.

[Wu Wei Wu]

FWIW, Hendrik, I enjoy reading your posts. I think somewhere, in the heart of your thought process there is something valuable.

Unfortunately, people have become too dismissive of ideas, opinions and thoughts. No need for personal attacks. No need to agree. More importantly, no need to post on the thread.

I may not understand Hendrik, but I am not so presumptive as to assume that a particular way has all the answers for each individual.



Hendrik,

Are these concepts 'subconscious'? I think you posted a link to Dempsey calling what he did some kind of falling-step jing. If this was posted in seriousness then please explain. If Dempsey wrote purely in mechanical terms does this mean that the path, be it mechanical or esoteric, leads to the same point. If so, what is the relevance of your conceptual framework? If a boxer can have 'jing' yet be completely unaware of it why is this issue of any relevance? I hope this makes sense.

Suki Gosal

[LoneTiger108]

Ok

Here is what I have heard.
To put it in today's term.

1,

Jing is a dynamic vector quantity .

Jing means "Force flow with guidance". No more no less.

Those who study physics can view Jing as a DIRECTED Force Vector which is flowing in a direction in the 3 D space.

Fa Jing means " Activate the Force Flow with guidance"

2,
Lek is a static scalar quantity.

Lek simply means power.



A pretty good interpretation Hendrik imho.

FWIW I've also heard jing referred to as a slang word for 'sperm', but I prefer the term 'essence'.

I've heard 'lik' often used in a pair like 'gung lik' for example, and jing often used with it's other two 'treasures', sun and hei (shen & qi/chi). As far as I'm aware the term 'sun jing hei' is often related to ones 'purity'.

It's what makes us all human I suppose and isn't too much of a mystery imo. They all help to cultivte our 'spirit'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok

Here is what I have heard.
To put it in today's term.



1,

JIng is a dynamic vector quantity .

Jing means "Force flow with guidance". No more no less.

Those who study physics can view Jing as a DIRECTED Force Vector which is flowing in a direction in the 3 D space.


Fa Jing means " Activate the Force Flow with guidance"




2,
Lek is a static scalar quantity.

Lek simply means power.






3, Jing can be analysed/model with Physics to a certain degree but not all. Why? because The guidance part is alive. That is where the Intention or Yee comes into play. Yee or intention Provide the Guidance or direction for this Force Flow.



4, Thus, Using/applied the Lek (power) and issuing/activating the Jing ( guided Force flow ) are two different things.

IE:

One could hammer a nail with Lek or power. However, Does one activating/issuing a guided force flow into the nail to drive into the wood?



5,

so what do one do when one practicing SLT? applied power to the movement or to activate/issuing/emitting Force flow guide by the intention?





So where is chi comes into play? and so is the so called Chi blast a chi blast or just a phenomenon cause by the guide force flow? and what about Shen? which in the Kuen kuit says " Yee moves Shen is there" or the moment the Intention is set the Soul / life force is spontaneously arive......

NOThing psuedo science everything is clear and straight forward. But if one have no clue what is what then that is the problem. Not to mention, some go even further to become an ANTI party where ANTI CHi ANTi Jing....etc those are really really missing the point.

So, doesnt the Boxing has Jing? sure, look at the falling step what is that? Jing!

From this post, using this description, every physical endevour can have "jin".
Which is quite correct.

[Hendrik]

From this post, using this description, every physical endevour can have "jin".

yes. why make live complicated?

Call it Jin, Jing, guided force flow..... who cares what. it has different names but pointing at the same phenomenon.

[Hendrik]

A pretty good interpretation Hendrik imho.

FWIW I've also heard jing referred to as a slang word for 'sperm', but I prefer the term 'essence'.

I've heard 'lik' often used in a pair like 'gung lik' for example, and jing often used with it's other two 'treasures', sun and hei (shen & qi/chi). As far as I'm aware the term 'sun jing hei' is often related to ones 'purity'.

It's what makes us all human I suppose and isn't too much of a mystery imo. They all help to cultivte our 'spirit'.



Nothing mystery at all.


yee without Shen or sun is hollow withou life.

Shen without Hei is rigidly dead.


for a holistic complete jin, only if the three treasures are full the jin is lively as a living agile dragon.

Jin is based on physical but beyond physical ---- Alive.

[TenTigers]

Geat, which brings us back to this:



well, the physics/physiology descriptions are all well and good, but when you add into the equation,"Yi Leads Ch'i" etc, things start to change.
I know from my study of SPM, that I can get good power from my strikes, good ging, etc.
BUT-when I have real intent-true desire to blast my opponent - this is when the true power comes out.
(and the hardest part is when doing two-man drills,doing this and just at the last nanosecond pull the strike from making contact)
When I don't have this intent, my teacher can always tell.
"No. No power."
"You didn't get your power out"
When you play with another, you can feel this intent. You get that,"Holy sheet! He's really trying to hurt me-That would've killed me, had it connected!" feeling.
There becomes a difference between a strike that while it most definately hurt your opponent, will not damage him, and one that will.
This intent, makes the difference.
I cannot explain it any other way. It is a feeling.
I know some of you can explain this in better terms.
So, have at it. What are your thoughts?

oh, BTW-I would prefer to hear from those who have experienced this exact thing and know what I am referring to, rather than those who sit on the sidelines and cast stones.

[Hendrik]

I think you posted a link to Dempsey calling what he did some kind of falling-step jing. If this was posted in seriousness then please explain.

If Dempsey wrote purely in mechanical terms does this mean that the path, be it mechanical or esoteric, leads to the same point.

If so, what is the relevance of your conceptual framework? If a boxer can have 'jing' yet be completely unaware of it why is this issue of any relevance? I hope this makes sense. -----


See my previous post.
since Dempsey can do it. even he might wrote in purely mechanical terms that does not exclude him from knowing it and have the Jin.

[Hendrik]

Geat, which brings us back to this:


The issue always is what is it and what is the process and how to get there.


If the definition of Jin is clear.

Then

What is the definition of SLT jin. That certainly is not Hung Gar or CLF Jin but wCK.

That needs to be clearly describe and understood.

[TenTigers]

Intent is universal and is not tied and restricted to one style.
I have seen many different methods of playing SLT as well as SBG in SPM.
You can play it soft like Tai Gik Kuen or hard like saamjien, you can do the tan/wu/fook three times section with foward intent going both out and inward, you can punch with power or not. Each method produces a different feeling.
I believe the connection with intent is constant throughout, whether the tension is manifested or not. Therein lies the problem. How do you convey the feeling of intent, in words, so that the student will understand?
Some may say that youcannot have intent when playing SLT slow and soft, but intent is in the mind. The mind connects to the body.
That, and it is not a one movement solution, but only a piece of the pie.
Once intent is understood, it can then be placed into any number of devices.

But, I manitain, No intent, No Ging. No Sun=No Yi=no Ging. If your spirit is not into it, then how can you have intent? If there is no intent, then how do you issue ALL your power? If you are not spiritually*/emotionally connected, then there will always be holding back of power.

*not lofty spirit, but fighting, emotional spirit

[Mano Mano]

ging or jin are only words used to describe an action, anyone may have or develop the ability to apply the action whether they are martial artists or not & yes they may be completely unaware of it.

[TenTigers]

(sigh) ok. I'm goin hunting.
I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.

[Hendrik]

ging or jin are only words used to describe an action, anyone may have or develop the ability to apply the action whether they are martial artists or not & yes they may be completely unaware of it.


Those who completely unaware of it will not be able to polish the skill or fine tune and make perfect of it. In general, this type of attainment is low level and cannot be evoke at will.

[anerlich]

FWIW, Hendrik, I enjoy reading your posts. I think somewhere, in the heart of your thought process there is something valuable.

FWIW, many people though that in the early days but came to the conclusion there was little of substance behind the word games.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hendrik,

I asked you a question regarding whether jing operated in the subconscious or conscious. Although you were quite dismissive in your response, interestingly you believe Jack Dempsey to have been capable of jing driven action subconsciously. If this is correct, then it would render a discussion on the nature of jing irrelevant as anyone with a mechanical basis for movement would have it.

For me, this topic has reached an impasse.

On another note, the 'jin' (djinn) that I am far more interested in learning about is described as follows:

"The djinn and men feared each other mutually, but the djinn were able to instil fear more intensely than men. The djinns are more fearful beings by nature, but they can also feel such human emotions as anger or sadness. In fact, the djinn benefit from these states, being better able to cause fear in the heart of man. Like bad dogs, when they sense your fear, they will attack. "

Suki Gosal

[Vajramusti]

IMO/FWIW without mystification:

There can be a variety of energy/power uses in wing chun kung fu:

without much skill development there can be "lik"- strength and muscle usage without deep intention.

With skill devlopment and intent and heightened awareness one can direct their energy for
explosiveness-fajing or bauja(Cantonese) or
sticking(chi- not the general chi-a different term) or
touch listening-keng or
drill- juum or
jek jip- direct usage or
gan jip- indirect or
connect-lin jip or
chung jip- immediate aggressive power

These are some of the major functions that can be performed in wing chun with well practiced and well directed actions using energy in various forms of motion-very obvious or subtle.
No mystification intended but as a way things become clearer with good practice IMO.
Correct structure and motion helps the direction of energy.
Thus many practice taichi but can't fajing.Good ones can.
Thus I have heard and that seems to be the case. You could use some terms from bio mechanics
but I have not had to depend on bio mechanics texts. There are probably different journeys and different ways of learning these things in kung fu.
Various forms of chi sao, lop sao, lat sau, drills including attacks and defenses, man sao , forms etc
help develop the direction of these energies

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

I asked you a question regarding whether jing operated in the subconscious or conscious. ---



What is conscious? what is subconscious?




Although you were quite dismissive in your response, interestingly you believe Jack Dempsey to have been capable of jing driven action subconsciously. ------


Again, what is concious ? what is subconscious?


Add Mohamat ALi, Joe ..... Oyama.... into the list of Jack Dempsey.



If this is correct, then it would render a discussion on the nature of jing irrelevant as anyone with a mechanical basis for movement would have it. -----


do you have jin? which type? and what is Jin?

[Mano Mano]

Those who completely unaware of it will not be able to polish the skill or fine tune and make perfect of it. In general, this type of attainment is low level and cannot be evoke at will.
There is only the action, ging/jin no polished or unpolished only the way people use it. Some people don’t need to evoke it they may not need it.
I’ve often found that people who look too much into the theories behind TCMA to be a bit like art critics who discuss & dissect great pieces of art they can tell you everything about the artist, who their favourite model was, even how they mixed their colours, what the artist was trying to say with hidden imagery. However they tend to get so involved in the subject they tend to miss the whole point that the artist just painted a great picture.

[Hendrik]

There is only the action, ging/jin no polished or unpolished only the way people use it. -------


That is how you speculate and think.



Some people don’t need to evoke it they may not need it. ------


So what is Jin?







I’ve often found that people who look too much into the theories behind TCMA to be a bit like art critics who discuss & dissect great pieces of art

they can tell you everything about the artist, who their favourite model was, even how they mixed their colours, what the artist was trying to say with hidden imagery. ------




Jin, Jing, Keng, Force flow or whatever one likes to call it is a phenomenon it is not a theory.

The TCMA has the training process to evoke different type of Force flow at will.






However they tend to get so involved in the subject they tend to miss the whole point that the artist just painted a great picture.---------



What is it? Does one have it? which type? what is the process to train and evoke?

If one cant answer the above then one has no big picture and thus will have no clue on the detail of the picture.

[Mano Mano]

There is only the action, ging/jin no polished or unpolished only the way people use it. -------


That is how you speculate and think.



Some people don’t need to evoke it they may not need it. ------


So what is Jin?







I’ve often found that people who look too much into the theories behind TCMA to be a bit like art critics who discuss & dissect great pieces of art

they can tell you everything about the artist, who their favourite model was, even how they mixed their colours, what the artist was trying to say with hidden imagery. ------




Jin, Jing, Keng, Force flow or whatever one likes to call it is a phenomenon it is not a theory.

The TCMA has the training process to evoke different type of Force flow at will.






However they tend to get so involved in the subject they tend to miss the whole point that the artist just painted a great picture.---------



What is it? Does one have it? which type? what is the process to train and evoke?

If one cant answer the above then one has no big picture and thus will have no clue on the detail of the picture.
My point is you’re dissecting & isolating something that is only a small part of TCMA & TCMA is holistic it all works as a whole.
P.S. I have been taught a training process for ging/jin & as the martial arts are in reality a physical medium & not metaphysical, training processes really don’t through words alone.

[Hendrik]

My point is you’re dissecting & isolating something that is only a small part of TCMA & TCMA is holistic it all works as a whole.



P.S. I have been taught a training process for ging/jin & as the martial arts are in reality a physical medium & not metaphysical, training processes really don’t through words alone.




for any advance TCMA training of Jin
with only physical and without Yee and Shen are incomplete training and in fact low level.

Yee and Shen and Silence are a part of holistic practice of cultivation elements.


Yee and Shen are as common as muscle and bone for TCMA artists who knows the process of cultivating Jin. Yee and Shen is not metaphysical in fact they are daily term from TCMA to traditional chinese medicine to everyday life.


Thus, one cannot use one's incomplete or unholistic training as a reference or standard.



If you disagree then please share and describe you ging/jin training process and see what is contribute to the different part of the GUIDED FORCE FLOW interm of what is the source of the power, the guidance system, the transportation system, the acceleration system.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Wing Chun is not a mystical experience (subjective). It is a system for developing skill (objective).

The teaching of skill is based on movement which can be copied and results which can be emulated. Mystical experience cannot be emulated, it is unique and individual to each person who is a silent observer into his inner being.

However the movement which gives rise to a strong punch can be copied and results emulated when observable descriptors such as hip position, momentum, shoulder rotation are used. One viewpoint reinforces Wing Chun as a system of combat. The other viewpoint reduces Wing Chun to archaic, supernatural nonsense.

Mysticism has no place in Wing Chun unless one is trying to belittle the fraternity by accusing everyone of having "incomplete training and in fact low level." (A surprising position from one who has been unable to advance anything of use thus far).

Suki Gosal

[Hendrik]

The teaching of skill is based on movement which can be copied and results which can be emulated. -------

Sounds very modern manufacturing mind set.

The Chinese believe and practicing in water has no fixed shape. Thus, how could the shape be fixed?




Mystical experience cannot be emulated, it is unique and individual to each person who is a silent observer into his inner being. ------




Mystical belongs to those who doesnt aware of or dont know the subject.

mysticism often arise when one is missing a few steps and trying to brute force the outcome.


The journey from Mind to NO Mind as teaches by the Buddha and Chan patraichs of the past, present, and future is not mystical but simple and straight forward:


The Shurangama Sutra:

“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.





How mystical can a martial art be when every steps is clear?






However the movement which gives rise to a strong punch can be copied and results emulated when observable descriptors such as hip position, momentum, shoulder rotation are used. One viewpoint reinforces Wing Chun as a system of combat. ---------


Well, Ask the practitioners of other southern CMA such as CLF and Hung Gar, what is the effect of Yee ? your description above missing that big important ingradient call Yee.




The other viewpoint reduces Wing Chun to archaic, supernatural nonsense.-----



Kuen kuit says, "Come accept.... Using Silence to lead action".


"Using silence to lead action" is not a view point, it is the essence of WCK. It is a core of WCK.

One must not "accept the Come accept... " but selectively disregard the "Using silence to lead action." doing so make's one's WCK incomplete.





Also, WCK kuen kuit doesnt talk about Fix shape or fix emulation Movement :
instead, it talks about NO SHAPE NO EMULATION movement since EMULATION OR SHAPE is a FIX limitation.

Thus, it said, "Comes Accept, Goes return it back...." IT could take any shape or any movement. That is the uniqueness of WCK. The art of WATER.





Mysticism has no place in Wing Chun unless one is trying to belittle the fraternity by accusing everyone of having "incomplete training and in fact low level." (A surprising position from one who has been unable to advance anything of use thus far). -------


Any people can make any claim.

However, any WCNER is subject to " Comes accept, Goes return it back... Using Silence to lead the Action."


A subject is Mysticism or not is relative to the level of the person;
IE for the kinder garden student, Differentiation is mysticism.
and they are perfectly correct for they are NOT Yet able to comprehend at all.




See, WCK has different level, everyone can believe and practice thier level; but going out and disregard certain content of the art and make that the TRUTH is really distorting the art.



BTW



The path to no mysticism is to CLEARLY DEFINE AND DESCRIBE WHAT IS WHAT. Since you dont like mysticism Why not starts the discussion by answer the following items which you have mention or related to your previos post?


1, What is conscious? what is subconscious?

2, do you have jin? which type? and what is Jin?



and,


since this is a deep topic, I understood if anyone are not interested in going forward.

[Hendrik]

Since Jin is guided flow of force, Jin then could catagorized into Hard bow Jin or Soft Jin.

Hard bow is similar to the crane jin or karate type. Where else Soft jin are snake/cocoon type.

The process to cultivate of both type of jin are heavenly different. The basic compents involves are Yee, Breathing, muscle, sinews, bone, qi, and shen.

Some general characteristics.
the hard jin usually is power up as pumping up the muscle. tighten up the sinews and join..etc. Thus, the whole physical is compress as high density hard as rock. The yee is heavy , tense, and sharp and explicitly extend. Thus, the shen is sharp dissipative since it is explosive ready. via explode it hit and crush. similar to a spear it poke and struck outward.


the soft jin ususally is power up as every join of the body is cusion by a package of air thus the body could move fuildly and springy, the body is empty and expended similar to open air thus Qi is flowing freely... while the Yee is firm, peace, and firmly implicit gathered. Thus, the Shen is strong and condense since it is implode ready. via implode it shock and bounce. similar to a bow the arrow shoot out when the bow string implode. Thus, it was called Fa Jin, Fa means release the bow string.

[Mano Mano]

Since Jin is guided flow of force, Jin then could catagorized into Hard bow Jin or Soft Jin.

Hard bow is similar to the crane jin or karate type. Where else Soft jin are snake/cocoon type.

The process to cultivate of both type of jin are heavenly different. The basic compents involves are Yee, Breathing, muscle, sinews, bone, qi, and shen.

Some general characteristics.
the hard jin usually is power up as pumping up the muscle. tighten up the sinews and join..etc. Thus, the whole physical is compress as high density hard as rock. The yee is heavy , tense, and sharp and explicitly extend. Thus, the shen is sharp dissipative since it is explosive ready. via explode it hit and crush. similar to a spear it poke and struck outward.


the soft jin ususally is power up as every join of the body is cusion by a package of air thus the body could move fuildly and springy, the body is empty and expended similar to open air thus Qi is flowing freely... while the Yee is firm, peace, and firmly implicit gathered. Thus, the Shen is strong and condense since it is implode ready. via implode it shock and bounce. similar to a bow the arrow shoot out when the bow string implode. Thus, it was called Fa Jin, Fa means release the bow string.

What about Li/Lee

[TenTigers]

(paraphrased from memory)
Dan Inosanto recalls when Bruce Lee was instructing him in the sidekick. Dan kept kicking the bag and Bruce was telling him that he wasn't getting his true power out. Dan kept kicking it, trying to kick harder and harder, getting more and more frustrated..
Finally, Bruce walks up to him and slapped him across the face, and said,"Again."
Infuriated, Dan kicked the bag with more power than he'd ever delivered.
Bruce smiled at him and calmly said,"That's it."

When I was 17, a guy I was training with had me visualize horrible, violent things happening to my family and loved ones. Then he had me kick through a two by four. At 130lbs, this was an extraordinary feat. I had never developed this kind of power before. I later was able to repeat this when in the dormitory, some guys had locked my girlfriend in their dorm with them. I kicked the steel door open, breaking it.
No mysticism. Just Yi+Lik=Ging.

[Mano Mano]

Since Jin is guided flow of force, Jin then could catagorized into Hard bow Jin or Soft Jin.

Hard bow is similar to the crane jin or karate type. Where else Soft jin are snake/cocoon type.

The process to cultivate of both type of jin are heavenly different. The basic compents involves are Yee, Breathing, muscle, sinews, bone, qi, and shen.

Some general characteristics.
the hard jin usually is power up as pumping up the muscle. tighten up the sinews and join..etc. Thus, the whole physical is compress as high density hard as rock. The yee is heavy , tense, and sharp and explicitly extend. Thus, the shen is sharp dissipative since it is explosive ready. via explode it hit and crush. similar to a spear it poke and struck outward.
That may be to way fa jing is done in karate, its not the way its done in any so called external TCMA, Fa jing/jin is a balance of soft & hard depending on the application & technique used. be it Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Jow Gar, Choi lee Fut, Northern Mantis or Long Fist.


the soft jin ususally is power up as every join of the body is cusion by a package of air thus the body could move fuildly and springy, the body is empty and expended similar to open air thus Qi is flowing freely... while the Yee is firm, peace, and firmly implicit gathered. Thus, the Shen is strong and condense since it is implode ready. via implode it shock and bounce. similar to a bow the arrow shoot out when the bow string implode. Thus, it was called Fa Jin, Fa means release the bow string.
Not a really a good analogy as the shooting of an arrow originates from the external muscle tension of the archer. You cant draw a bow with just so called internal chi, shen & yi you also need li

[Hendrik]

(paraphrased from memory)
Dan Inosanto recalls when Bruce Lee was instructing him in the sidekick. Dan kept kicking the bag and Bruce was telling him that he wasn't getting his true power out. Dan kept kicking it, trying to kick harder and harder, getting more and more frustrated..
Finally, Bruce walks up to him and slapped him across the face, and said,"Again."
Infuriated, Dan kicked the bag with more power than he'd ever delivered.
Bruce smiled at him and calmly said,"That's it."

When I was 17, a guy I was training with had me visualize horrible, violent things happening to my family and loved ones. Then he had me kick through a two by four. At 130lbs, this was an extraordinary feat. I had never developed this kind of power before. I later was able to repeat this when in the dormitory, some guys had locked my girlfriend in their dorm with them. I kicked the steel door open, breaking it.
No mysticism. Just Yi+Lik=Ging.


Excelent post!



The caution about this type of Yi -body evoking is that it cause tensing in the artery or blood vessel and accelerate the body circulation.... thus the Qi will be dissipate and Shen dull after awhile. and if there is any sickness in the body such as when human is after 40 years old the body might not be able to take this type of stimulation and could cause Kidney and Heart damanges . This type of evoking is emotional based. and after awhile one could subject to uncontrol emotional drive. One's temper get worse and worse, always angry of depress....etc.


With this reason, the ancient Chinese is going another path, the soft jin path which is entering the silence and evoke the power from there.where non or less dissipative could be attain.... a different path. it by passed emotion. or penetrate emotion...

if you notice the starting or ending of internal art or even the Shao Lin Yi Jin Jing always one needs to stand there for awhile to get into silence.....etc that is the cultivation ...

Using Yi to transport the Qi and using Qi to transport physical body is the alternative path compare with what we have above --- using emotion to evoke Yi using emotion to push the physical body.


just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

That may be to way fa jing is done in karate, its not the way its done in any so called external TCMA,

Fa jing/jin is a balance of soft & hard depending on the application & technique used. be it Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Jow Gar, Choi lee Fut, Northern Mantis or Long Fist. ------


You see, all what you describe above doesnt real tell the story.


what is soft? what is hard? what is a balance of soft and hard? Can a person do Taiji and Boxing in the same time?


It is better if you describe a process you know and discuss it. otherwise it goes no where because the words are just wishfull thinking.







Not a really a good analogy as the shooting of an arrow originates from the external muscle tension of the archer. You cant draw a bow with just so called internal chi, shen & yi you also need li-------------


Relase bow string is an analogy,

What I present is the way of Ancient Chinese clasical writing. and can be done if to those who have train with it.

From your feed back above it is obviously by evident you are not that familia with releasing the bow string to shoot arrow. and chi , shen, or yi... ect.


IMHO, There is no point to argue for argument shake.


see, all of these stuffs are not up for speculating but needs to have experience.

[TenTigers]

Excelent post!



The caution about this type of Yi -body evoking is that it cause tensing in the artery or blood vessel and accelerate the body circulation.... thus the Qi will be dissipate and Shen dull after awhile. and if there is any sickness in the body such as when human is after 40 years old the body might not be able to take this type of stimulation and could cause Kidney and Heart damanges . This type of evoking is emotional based. and after awhile one could subject to uncontrol emotional drive. One's temper get worse and worse, always angry of depress....etc.


With this reason, the ancient Chinese is going another path, the soft jin path which is entering the silence and evoke the power from there.where non or less dissipative could be attain.... a different path. it by passed emotion. or penetrate emotion...

Using Yi to transport the Qi and using Qi to transport physical body is the alternative path compare with what we have above --- using emotion to evoke Yi using emotion to push the physical body.


just some thoughts.

I agree. This was an extreme case, and I do not, and have not practiced it since, but it is a glimpse of what one is capable of when yi is engaged, and combined with lik.
In Hung-Ga, the five animals form develops the five emotions-each emotion associated with a partcular animal and its corresponding techniques. The emotions are a mindset. Anger, Spirit,cunning,calmness, cold-blooded. They join together to develop overall mindset, so one is not enraged, yet can release rage-like power in an instant. The calmness of the crane controls the anger of the Tiger. The cold-blooded mind of the snake combines with the cunning of the leopard, etc, etc.
In Southern Mantis, the Sam Bo Ging (some schools call it Sam Bo Jin) and the training develop this mindset. The posture connects (theoretically) oneself to their reptilian mind. The intent is pushed and pushed so that as soon as the posture is created, as soon as the Hut Yee Sao (SPM's Bye Jong) comes up, the mind/intent switches on.
So, how in Wing Chun does the instructor guide the student in the development of Yi?

BTW- this might be a very individual thing, depending on the Sifu's method.

[TenTigers]

let's move this to another thread, so that you guys can continue your arguments here.

[Mano Mano]

That may be to way fa jing is done in karate, its not the way its done in any so called external TCMA,

Fa jing/jin is a balance of soft & hard depending on the application & technique used. be it Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Jow Gar, Choi lee Fut, Northern Mantis or Long Fist. ------


You see, all what you describe above doesnt real tell the story.


what is soft? what is hard? what is a balance of soft and hard? Can a person do Taiji and Boxing in the same time?


It is better if you describe a process you know and discuss it. otherwise it goes no where because the words are just wishfull thinking.







Not a really a good analogy as the shooting of an arrow originates from the external muscle tension of the archer. You cant draw a bow with just so called internal chi, shen & yi you also need li-------------


Relase bow string is an analogy,

What I present is the way of Ancient Chinese clasical writing. and can be done if to those who have train with it.

From your feed back above it is obviously by evident you are not familia with releasing the bow string to shoot arrow. or fajin. and chi , shen, or yi... ect. There is no point to argue for argument shake. That is just a waste of energy and confuse those who read the post.



see, all of these stuffs are not up for speculating but needs to have experience.
Whether you use Ancient Chinese classical writing or not the bowstring or bow cannot propel the arrow by itself. The arrow cannot be shot without tension so still not a good analogy of internal workings ancient of otherwise.

That all from me I’m afraid as a martial artist I’m off to do something very important to all martial artists that is to actually do some martial arts training.

[Hendrik]

Whether you use Ancient Chinese classical writing or not the bowstring or bow cannot propel the arrow by itself. The arrow cannot be shot without tension so still not a good analogy of internal workings ancient of otherwise. -------

That is how you think.



The following are how the ancient master describe.





.......A feather cannot be placed,
and a fly cannot alight
on any part of the body.

The opponent does not know me;
I alone know him.....


The hsin [mind-and-heart] mobilizes the ch'i [vital life energy].
Make the ch'i sink calmly;
then the ch'i gathers and permeates the bones.

The ch'i mobilizes the body.
Make it move smoothly, so that it may easily follows the hsin.

The I [mind-intention] and ch'i must interchange agilely,
then there is an excellence of roundness and smoothness.
This is called "the interplay of insubstantial and substantial."

The hsin is the commander, the ch'i the flag, and the waist the banner.

The waist is like the axle and the ch'i is like the wheel.

The ch'i is always nurtured without harm.
Let the ch'i move as in a pearl with nine passages
without breaks
so that there is no part it cannot reach.

In moving the ch'i sticks to the back and permeates the spine.
It is said "first in the hsin, then in the body."
The abdomen relaxes, then the ch'i sinks into the bones.
The shen [spirit of vitality] is relaxed and the body calm.


The softest will then become the strongest.
When the ching shen is raised,
there is no fault of stagnancy and heaviness.
This is called suspending the headtop.

Inwardly make the shen firm,
and outwardly exhibit calmness and peace.
Store up the chin like drawing a bow.

Mobilize the chin like drawing silk from a cocoon.
Release the chin like releasing the arrow.
To fa-chin [discharge energy], sink, relax completely,
and aim in one direction! ...





To become a peerless boxer results from this.

There are many boxing arts.
Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.

From the sentence "A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds"
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.




I’m afraid as a martial artist I’m off to do something very important to all martial artists that is to actually do some martial arts training. ------


Respectable will!

However, that doesnt say your path is accord to the teaching of the ancestors.

I personally like to take the path of Ancestors because they have proven the technology.

[Hendrik]

This was an extreme case, and I do not, and have not practiced it since, but it is a glimpse of what one is capable of when yi is engaged, and combined with lik. -----

Yes, this is the magic of " ask and it is given".

However, we need to know what we are asking for. otherwise we might end up becomes a slave of what we are asking for.




the five animals form develops the five emotions-each emotion associated with a partcular animal and its corresponding techniques. The emotions are a mindset. Anger, Spirit,cunning,calmness, cold-blooded. They join together to develop overall mindset, so one is not enraged, yet can release rage-like power in an instant. The calmness of the crane controls the anger of the Tiger. The cold-blooded mind of the snake combines with the cunning of the leopard, etc, etc. ------


If one want to be an animal one certainly could go that path to condition one's mind to be animal like.

In modern language, this is just a programming for one to enter into an alter state. but then watch-out if one could become the slave of that state....


But, one needs to watch out for what one is programming oneself into.

In the western language, this is infact Sign a contract with some energy.

In buddhism, for those who practice Zen or Chan, emotion is the second skandal, in Shurangama sutra it is clearly state the demonic state of the skandals

click on

"The origin of demonic state"

and

Feeling Skandal

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v8.020526.screen.pdf

If you are interested to know Buddhism's process.



One needs to be very careful for what one asked for or get into.
When dealing with Yi, Shen, and Awareness.

Shurangama sutra is the most important sutra in Zen or Chan training. Sitting in meditation or Martial Zen.



In Southern Mantis, the Sam Bo Ging (some schools call it Sam Bo Jin) and the training develop this mindset. The posture connects (theoretically) oneself to their reptilian mind. The intent is pushed and pushed so that as soon as the posture is created, as soon as the Hut Yee Sao (SPM's Bye Jong) comes up, the mind/intent switches on. ------


Some southern martial art comes with Folk spiritual/alter state practice called San Da.

One needs to very carefull what is the training about, is it the Zen like of training so that one will be lead into Enlightement or other types of practice.


PS.

In general, most training of Zen or martial art today doesnt go beyond the first skandha. Even in the shao lin training the state generally stop at some level of first skandha.
thus, information such as the Shurangama sutra was not popular even for the general meditators which only reach the state of relax and the most quiet down....but never really goes further because that already serve thier purpose.

[Ali. R]

I hope you don’t mind me saying Hendrik, good thread...:D

This is I, identifying with “shen” and “jing”, waaaay off in another zone (free flowing)…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CucBbet1SUY

Throwing hooks like a cold hearted crook, and stealing dreams with these lazer beams…

Sucker shakeing and pleading down on his knees; while saying, “lord have mercy it’s Ali Rahim”!

Just messing with yah…:D


Ali Rahim.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

From the sentence "A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds"
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.


Question: Have you ever actually gone and played with a 4 ounce weight?

4 ounces is more something than nothing.

What's your experience of the 4 ounce principle?

Here's part of mine:

Before you can apply the "4 ounce" experience, you have to know your "4 ounce" limit.

Everyone has their own personal "4 ounce" limit, in the same way that everyone has their own personal body inch, or cun.

Cheers
Christian

[Hendrik]

Question: Have you ever actually gone and played with a 4 ounce weight?

4 ounces is more something than nothing.

What's your experience of the 4 ounce principle?

Here's part of mine:

Before you can apply the "4 ounce" experience, you have to know your "4 ounce" limit.

Everyone has their own personal "4 ounce" limit, in the same way that everyone has their own personal body inch, or cun.

Cheers
Christian



According to the mind you are absolutely correct.


but then please explain what do you mean by "4 ounces is more something than nothing."


BTW, do you refer to Chinese ounce or British ounce?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

but then please explain what do you mean by "4 ounces is more something than nothing."

BTW, do you refer to Chinese ounce or British ounce?

Well, in terms of British vs. Chinese ounces, I have to say that I'm not familiar with the differences... a quick search online puts the British ounce at 28g, and the Chinese ounce at 50g. I did a search on ancient chinese measurements as well, and came up with gram equivalents of never less than 50g per ounce.

Personally, I've only ever played with British ounces... 4 of which equal 112g.

At any rate, a force of even 4 British ounces applied to the body has a marked effect on the organism as a whole. In other words, the body responds to the force as though it were "something" rather than "nothing," whether the conscious mind is aware of the force or not.

In my experience, however, the standard units of measurement mean little, since everyone has their own "personal" weight measurement system, in the same way that everyone has their own "personal" distance measure. The cun, or body inch, is a personal measure that is defined by the width of one's thumb at the phalangeal joint. This measurement is used in describing the various distances between your own personal anatomical landmarks. For instance, everyone's forearm is of a different length, but when you divide it into body inches based on their own personal scale, everyone's forearm from the crease of the elbow to the crease of the wrist is 12 cun, or twelve body inches.

The same is true for measuring "weight." The way a large, strong man's neurophysiology interacts with a pound is different from how a small, weak woman's interacts with a pound. There is, however, a certain amount of weight that you can give the strong man so that he experiences the same neurophysiological compensation as the weak woman. Likewise, there is a certain weight that you can give the woman so that her neurophysiology behaves in the same way as the strong man's does in relation to the pound.

Back to 4 ounces. As a personal measure, it reflects the "limit of strain" (this is my half-baked term, feel free to find a better one.) The limit of strain is the minimum force needed to for our neurophysiological response to recruit the stabilizing muscles of the body to maintain balance and interact with said force from a rooted position.

For the woman in the above example, this limit of strain is much less than the man. However, both the man and the woman have exactly this same response at their disposal given the appropriate application of force. In this way, "4 ounces" represents the minimum force needed to engage the entire body when receiving or issuing force.

I've developed a simple method of allowing students to experience their own personal "4 ounce" limit. It involves gradually applying force to a structurally sound student until they feel the need to apply force back in order to maintain their balance. The level of force experienced is different for every individual, but the neurophysiological response is the same.

Hope I've answered your questions. Back to mine: What's your experience with the 4 ounce principle?

[Hendrik]

Well, in terms of British vs. Chinese ounces, I have to say that I'm not familiar with the differences... a quick search online puts the British ounce at 28g, and the Chinese ounce at 50g. I did a search on ancient chinese measurements as well, and came up with gram equivalents of never less than 50g per ounce.

Personally, I've only ever played with British ounces... 4 of which equal 112g.

At any rate, a force of even 4 British ounces applied to the body has a marked effect on the organism as a whole. In other words, the body responds to the force as though it were "something" rather than "nothing," whether the conscious mind is aware of the force or not.

In my experience, however, the standard units of measurement mean little, since everyone has their own "personal" weight measurement system, in the same way that everyone has their own "personal" distance measure. The cun, or body inch, is a personal measure that is defined by the width of one's thumb at the phalangeal joint. This measurement is used in describing the various distances between your own personal anatomical landmarks. For instance, everyone's forearm is of a different length, but when you divide it into body inches based on their own personal scale, everyone's forearm from the crease of the elbow to the crease of the wrist is 12 cun, or twelve body inches.

The same is true for measuring "weight." The way a large, strong man's neurophysiology interacts with a pound is different from how a small, weak woman's interacts with a pound. There is, however, a certain amount of weight that you can give the strong man so that he experiences the same neurophysiological compensation as the weak woman. Likewise, there is a certain weight that you can give the woman so that her neurophysiology behaves in the same way as the strong man's does in relation to the pound.

Back to 4 ounces. As a personal measure, it reflects the "limit of strain" (this is my half-baked term, feel free to find a better one.) The limit of strain is the minimum force needed to for our neurophysiological response to recruit the stabilizing muscles of the body to maintain balance and interact with said force from a rooted position.

For the woman in the above example, this limit of strain is much less than the man. However, both the man and the woman have exactly this same response at their disposal given the appropriate application of force. In this way, "4 ounces" represents the minimum force needed to engage the entire body when receiving or issuing force.

I've developed a simple method of allowing students to experience their own personal "4 ounce" limit. It involves gradually applying force to a structurally sound student until they feel the need to apply force back in order to maintain their balance. The level of force experienced is different for every individual, but the neurophysiological response is the same.

Hope I've answered your questions. Back to mine: What's your experience with the 4 ounce principle?

See, soooo much energy needs to be burn just on thinking on one 4 ounce subject.

That is my experience.

BTW, since you know chinese or British ounce better then me,

may be you can tell me how many ounce is that in the standing post practice when the whole body is so light and swaying like a willow tree in the wind feeling like almost going to levitate?


The classical said,

" K1 point is not the root, waist is not the master, the willow spine is as soft as no bone, one hand spread out become thousand hands. " how many once is that I question the ancient sage.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

See, soooo much energy needs to be burn just on thinking on one 4 ounce subject.

That is my experience.
Not quite sure what you mean. When I'm showing others or practicing this myself, none of the above thinking is necessary. In a non-experiential medium, however, where symbolic communication is all that is possible, it helps to give adequate amounts of description.



BTW, since you know chinese or British ounce better then me,

may be you can tell me how many ounce is that in the standing post practice when the whole body is so light and swaying like a willow tree in the wind feeling like almost going to levitate?


As I've mentioned previously, I have no experience with Standardized Chinese ounces per se, only what I've found on the internet.

Regarding the experience of "lightness" experienced during Zhan Zhuang in relation to personal ounces:

tension in the body or limbs is experientially very similar to being exposed to force, or weight. Tension is indicative of an imbalance, be it a musculoskeletal imbalance affecting the psyche, or a psychoemotional imbalance affecting the body. For instance, someone who has poor posture is not only fighting against gravity to remain standing, but is also fighting against their own structural imbalance and self-image. It is this extra tension that is perceived as "weight," or in the realm of the psyche, "insecurity."

If a person progresses carefully and appropriately through Zhan Zhuang practice, balance and stability are restored in both the body and the psyche, and all tension unnecessary for standing is released. Tension, very similar to the experience of being acted upon by a force, is replaced by the experience of relaxation, or of having no outside force that needs acting against besides gravity. The feeling of no-tension equates to the feeling of no-weight. In a way, Zhan Zhuang gives the practitioner the opportunity to "tare," or attain the feeling of weightlessness... zero personal ounces.



The classical said,

" K1 point is not the root, waist is not the master, the willow spine is as soft as no bone, one hand spread out become thousand hands. " how many once is that I question the ancient sage.

..and what did the ancient sage have to say?

[Hendrik]

Regarding the experience of "lightness" experienced during Zhan Zhuang in relation to personal ounces:

tension in the body or limbs is experientially very similar to being exposed to force, or weight. Tension is indicative of an imbalance, be it a musculoskeletal imbalance affecting the psyche, or a psychoemotional imbalance affecting the body. For instance, someone who has poor posture is not only fighting against gravity to remain standing, but is also fighting against their own structural imbalance and self-image. It is this extra tension that is perceived as "weight," or in the realm of the psyche, "insecurity."

If a person progresses carefully and appropriately through Zhan Zhuang practice, balance and stability are restored in both the body and the psyche, and all tension unnecessary for standing is released. Tension, very similar to the experience of being acted upon by a force, is replaced by the experience of relaxation, or of having no outside force that needs acting against besides gravity. The feeling of no-tension equates to the feeling of no-weight. In a way, Zhan Zhuang gives the practitioner the opportunity to "tare," or attain the feeling of weightlessness... zero personal ounces.




Yup.

That is the bottom line of either it is four ounce or six ounce.... or zero ounce.