Shopping Madness!

[WinterPalm]

I've seen all these news articles about people going shopping and people being killed by stampeding shoppers? WTF?
What the he ll is going on? Is stuff really that expensive that when it's on sale people go nuts?

[uki]

just goes to show the extent on how brainwashed the masses are with consumerism... considering that nearly 70% of the american economy revolves around consumers purchasing things they do not need.

[taai gihk yahn]

just goes to show the extent on how brainwashed the masses are with consumerism... considering that nearly 70% of the american economy revolves around consumers purchasing things they do not need.

indeed - and people complained, as the employees tried to clear the crowd out and shut down the store because of the inconvenient fact that someone had DIED, that they had been standing in line all night...

[uki]

indeed - and people complained, as the employees tried to clear the crowd out and shut down the store because of the inconvenient fact that someone had DIED, that they had been standing in line all night...i was in a soup kitchen once and another homeless lady started complaining about the quality of the food...

[Oso]

people suck...kill them all. :)

[uki]

people suck...kill them all.they seem to be doing just fine killing themselves.

[Matrix]

And the madness continues. Two guys shot and killed each other in a Toys Are Us.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/two-killed-calif-toys-r/story.aspx?guid=%7B622FCF6A-2C2B-4CFB-AE07-7F9FE4BF4F04%7D

Merry Christmas!

[SPJ]

growing in the 60's

not much interested in toys in stores, we made our own "toys".

however, my brothers and I would "fight" over a lollipop.

but we always split the candies anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rYoRaxgOE0

:eek:

[1bad65]

just goes to show the extent on how brainwashed the masses are with consumerism... considering that nearly 70% of the american economy revolves around consumers purchasing things they do not need.

Care to back that up with facts?

Considering the most expensive things Americans buy, houses and cars, are necessities, I think your number is incorrect.

[1bad65]

And the madness continues. Two guys shot and killed each other in a Toys Are Us.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/two-killed-calif-toys-r/story.aspx?guid=%7B622FCF6A-2C2B-4CFB-AE07-7F9FE4BF4F04%7D

Merry Christmas!

While it's still under investigation, that shooting appears to be either gang related or there was a previous beef between the two men who were shot.

[uki]

Care to back that up with facts?another pharisee i see...


Considering the most expensive things Americans buy, houses and cars, are necessities, I think your number is incorrect.you mean houses that are built at a bare minimum set of quality and standards, then turned around and sold at a ridiculous amount that only ensures that the person will be in debt for the rest of their lives? lets not forget to buy all those technological gadgets that keep us disconected from reality, turning the populations into pharmecutically drugged, obese, and weak minded individuals lacking any thoughts other than what is broadcast across the big blue screen... every idiot out there acts like some famous dysfunctional movie star or rock star. the proof is everywhere if you open your eyes and take a look around... whatever happened to an economy and way of life where people built there own homes? because they have been programmed to be lazy and weak. baaaaaaa BAAAAAAAA!!!! :p

[冠木侍]

I've seen all these news articles about people going shopping and people being killed by stampeding shoppers? WTF?
What the he ll is going on? Is stuff really that expensive that when it's on sale people go nuts?


I was not much surprised when I heard....just felt for bad for the family of the victim.Walmart Employee Trampled to Death (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html?_r=1) from New York Times


November 29, 2008
Wal-Mart Employee Trampled to Death
By ROBERT D. McFADDEN and ANGELA MACROPOULOS

The throng of Wal-Mart shoppers had been building all night, filling sidewalks and stretching across a vast parking lot at the Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, N.Y. At 3:30 a.m., the Nassau County police had to be called in for crowd control, and an officer with a bullhorn pleaded for order.

Tension grew as the 5 a.m. opening neared. Someone taped up a crude poster: “Blitz Line Starts Here.”

By 4:55, with no police officers in sight, the crowd of more than 2,000 had become a rabble, and could be held back no longer. Fists banged and shoulders pressed on the sliding-glass double doors, which bowed in with the weight of the assault. Six to 10 workers inside tried to push back, but it was hopeless.

Suddenly, witnesses and the police said, the doors shattered, and the shrieking mob surged through in a blind rush for holiday bargains. One worker, Jdimytai Damour, 34, was thrown back onto the black linoleum tiles and trampled in the stampede that streamed over and around him. Others who had stood alongside Mr. Damour trying to hold the doors were also hurled back and run over, witnesses said.

Some workers who saw what was happening fought their way through the surge to get to Mr. Damour, but he had been fatally injured, the police said. Emergency workers tried to revive Mr. Damour, a temporary worker hired for the holiday season, at the scene, but he was pronounced dead an hour later at Franklin Hospital Medical Center in Valley Stream.

Four other people, including a 28-year-old woman who was described as eight months pregnant, were treated at the hospital for minor injuries.

Detective Lt. Michael Fleming, who is in charge of the investigation for the Nassau police, said the store lacked adequate security. He called the scene “utter chaos” and said the “crowd was out of control.” As for those who had run over the victim, criminal charges were possible, the lieutenant said. “I’ve heard other people call this an accident, but it is not,” he said. “Certainly it was a foreseeable act.”

But even with videos from the store’s surveillance cameras and the accounts of witnesses, Lieutenant Fleming and other officials acknowledged that it would be difficult to identify those responsible, let alone to prove culpability.

Some shoppers who had seen the stampede said they were shocked. One of them, Kimberly Cribbs of Queens, said the crowd had acted like “savages.” Shoppers behaved badly even as the store was being cleared, she recalled.

“When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling, ‘I’ve been on line since yesterday morning,’ ” Ms. Cribbs told The Associated Press. “They kept shopping.”

Wal-Mart security officials and the police cleared the store, swept up the shattered glass and locked the doors until 1 p.m., when it reopened to a steady stream of calmer shoppers who passed through the missing doors and battered door jambs, apparently unaware that anything had happened.

Ugly shopping scenes, a few involving injuries, have become commonplace during the bargain-hunting ritual known as Black Friday, the day after Thanksgiving. The nation’s largest retail group, the National Retail Federation, said it had never heard of a worker being killed on Black Friday.

Wal-Mart declined to provide details of the stampede, but said in a statement that it had tried to prepare by adding staff members. Still, it was unclear how many security workers it had at the Valley Stream store for the opening on Friday. The Green Acres Mall provides its own security to supplement the staffs of some large stores, but it did not appear that Wal-Mart was one of them.

A Wal-Mart spokesman, Dan Folgleman, called it a “tragic situation,” and said the victim had been hired from a temporary staffing agency and assigned to maintenance work. Wal-Mart, in a statement issued at its headquarters in Bentonville, Ark., said: “The safety and security of our customers and associates is our top priority. Our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families at this tragic time.”

Wal-Mart has successfully resisted unionization of its employees. New York State’s largest grocery union, Local 1500 of the United Food and Commercial Workers, called the death of Mr. Damour “avoidable” and demanded investigations.

“Where were the safety barriers?” said Bruce Both, the union president. “Where was security? How did store management not see dangerous numbers of customers barreling down on the store in such an unsafe manner? This is not just tragic; it rises to a level of blatant irresponsibility by Wal-Mart.”

While other Wal-Mart stores dot the suburbs around the city, the outlet at Valley Stream, less than two miles from New York City’s southeastern border, draws customers from Queens, Brooklyn and the densely populated suburbs of Nassau County. And it was not the only store in the Green Acres Mall that attracted large crowds.

Witnesses said the crowd outside Wal-Mart began gathering at 9 p.m. on Thursday. The night was not bitterly cold, and the early mood was relaxed. By the early morning hours, the throngs had grown, and officers of the Fifth Precinct of the Nassau County Police Department, who patrol Valley Stream, were out in force, checking on crowds at the mall.

Mr. Damour, who lived in Queens, went into the store sometime during the night to stock shelves and perform maintenance work.

On Friday night, Mr. Damour’s father, Ogera Charles, 67, said his son had spent Thursday evening having Thanksgiving dinner at a half sister’s house in Queens before going directly to work. Mr. Charles said his son, known as Jimmy, was raised in Queens by his mother and worked at various stores in the area after graduating from high school.

Mr. Charles said he had not seen his son in three months, and heard about his death about 7 a.m. Friday, when a friend of Mr. Damour’s called him at home. He arrived at Franklin Hospital Medical Center an hour later to identify the body. Mr. Charles said he was angry that no one from Wal-Mart had contacted him or had explained how his son had died. Maria Damour, Mr. Damour’s mother, was in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, but was on her way back to the United States, Mr. Charles said.

About the time that Mr. Damour was killed, a shopper at a Wal-Mart in Farmingdale, 15 miles east of Valley Stream, said she was trampled by a crowd of overeager customers, the Suffolk County police reported. The woman sustained a cut on her leg, but finished her shopping before filing the police report, an officer said.

Anahad O’Connor contributed reporting.

[uki]

if anyone needs any proof of the people obsessed with buying things they do in fact not need... there it was.

[BoulderDawg]

Not to lessen the impact of this story but I'm wondering if we've heard the entire story. I read one news account where they said the guy had a heart attack and died instead of being trampled...It would be nice to get the complete story on this.

That said, either way I'm guessing Walmart lawyers are working on a settlement as we speak...and my guess is they will breathe a sign of relief if it's under 5 mill. Also, if the stories are right and this guy was trampled I'm wondering about criminal charges for negligence homicide.

The store manager should have had barricades and security outside the store. Especially after they saw a crowd of 2,000 on the outside.

[1bad65]

if anyone needs any proof of the people obsessed with buying things they do in fact not need... there it was.

Wow!!! 1 whole incident!

I stand corrected. You must really know all about the American consumer. I can't see how I can argue with someone like you who has 1 whole example on his side?!?!

I also see that you somehow knew that what those people were buying were not necessities. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Care to back that up with facts?

I see you don't.

[Reverend Tap]

Wow!!! 1 whole incident!

I stand corrected. You must really know all about the American consumer. I can't see how I can argue with someone like you who has 1 whole example on his side?!?!

I also see that you somehow knew that what those people were buying were not necessities. :rolleyes:

Yeah, because people tend to crush others to death in a mad rush to get the everyday things they need from Walmart. :rolleyes:

Seriously. These sorts of incidents (and as I recall, we get to hear about several of them every year) occur surrounding a special annual sale on gift items, which by definition tend not to be necessities.

Wanting empirical proof of a statement is one thing. Rejecting common sense in the interpretation of a real-world example because it hasn't been empirically verified is getting into the realm of simple silly stubbornness.

[uki]

Wow!!! 1 whole incident!hey you can count!!! good for you...


I stand corrected.i suppose if sitting erect in a wheelchair counts... sure.

You must really know all about the American consumer.well i am an american that was born in america(unlike certain people who are soon to play president), i build houses for a living, and i witness first hand idiot americans buying useless trinkets...


I can't see how I can argue with someone like you who has 1 whole example on his side?!?!because your mental capacity to argue with me is next to nil...


I also see that you somehow knew that what those people were buying were not necessities. they were shopping at wal-mart, do i need to say anything more?



I see you don't.senility usually strikes in old age... but wait... you're one bad... nevermind... :p




Wanting empirical proof of a statement is one thing. Rejecting common sense in the interpretation of a real-world example because it hasn't been empirically verified is getting into the realm of simple silly stubbornness.hey come on, he did his best to try and succeed in a futile arguement... then again trying is not doing... some folks are too brainwashed to understand the concept of it.

[taai gihk yahn]

Care to back that up with facts?

Considering the most expensive things Americans buy, houses and cars, are necessities, I think your number is incorrect.

it's not the fact that they are buying houses and cars, but that they are buying McMansions and Hummers, neither of which are justifiable from a rational resource management perspective; and the cultural imperative to buy new ones every other year;

[1bad65]

Yeah, because people tend to crush others to death in a mad rush to get the everyday things they need from Walmart. :rolleyes:

It's simply a matter of numbers. It's kind of like how you have more incidents on downtown streets on the weekends and more traffic collisions during holidays. You simply have so many people choosing to go on that day, there is bound to be quite a few incidents.

[1bad65]

it's not the fact that they are buying houses and cars, but that they are buying McMansions and Hummers, neither of which are justifiable from a rational resource management perspective; and the cultural imperative to buy new ones every other year;

Well I can see where this one went. :rolleyes:

I guess since we could still **** in our yards and bury it and bathe in rivers, all costs associated with bathrooms are wasteful and unneccessary in you guy's eyes.

I'm surprised you two stopped at 70% though. By your standards it's gotta be well over 95%. :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Well I can see where this one went. :rolleyes:

I guess since we could still **** in our yards and bury it and bathe in rivers, all costs associated with bathrooms are wasteful and unneccessary in you guy's eyes.

I'm surprised you two stopped at 70% though. By your standards it's gotta be well over 95%. :rolleyes:

you are the true master of reductio ad absurdum

and I further make my point here (http://members.whattheythink.com/images/dt050516.gif)

[uki]

and the cultural imperative to buy new ones every other year;but americans need to buy things new every year... it's all part of the status quo...


It's simply a matter of numbers. It's kind of like how you have more incidents on downtown streets on the weekends and more traffic collisions during holidays. You simply have so many people choosing to go on that day, there is bound to be quite a few incidents.so imagine a whole country full of idiots shopping for a bargin on things they do not need for one special day after thanksgiving... seems alot like it might be up to par with your traffic accidents on the weekends example, just on a larger and more comical scale. :p

[Matrix]

it's not the fact that they are buying houses and cars, but that they are buying McMansions and Hummers, neither of which are justifiable from a rational resource management perspective; and the cultural imperative to buy new ones every other year;First of all, this is not strictly an American issue. Have you seen the price of real estate in London and Paris? Just to name a few cities that also have an ongoing real-estate crash.
The issue is not the Mansions or even the Hummers, perse. It's the leveraging or debt loads that is the problem. People need to live within their means, but you can still have a Mansion if you have the cash flow to support it. You just can't finance a "dream" (now nightmare) lifestyle by juggling 20 credit cards.

If this were strictly an American thing, we would not be in a global financial crisis.

And if Americans didn't buy these things, countries like China and Mexico and India would have a whole lot less to manufacture. All this to say that we're all in this together. Time wasted pointing figures does nothing to solve it. Fixed the system and move on. In the mean-time prepare for a little bit of pain.

Like all things, there needs to be a happy-medium. Anything to excess is unhealthy.

[1bad65]

so imagine a whole country full of idiots shopping for a bargin on things they do not need for one special day after thanksgiving... seems alot like it might be up to par with your traffic accidents on the weekends example, just on a larger and more comical scale. :p

That much I agree with. I stay well away from shopping on Black Friday. It's an accident waiting to happen, and those who do shop that day are fools.

Oh, and Uki; Next time you have something smart-assed to say, have the balls to say it public.

[1bad65]

Matrix,

You make alot of sense. I hope you continue to post.

[uki]

Oh, and Uki; Next time you have something smart-assed to say, have the balls to say it public.ok... better change the signature because i'd be willing to bet you don't show... :p

[1bad65]

ok... better change the signature because i'd be willing to bet you don't show... :p

He is supposed to show up my house, idiot. How can I no-show at my own house? :confused:

[uki]

He is supposed to show up my house, idiot. How can I no-show at my own house? obviously if you cannot answer your own questions you have quite a bit to understand yet... and here i was under the impression you were some sort of tough guy instigating a fight...

[David Jamieson]

First of all, this is not strictly an American issue. Have you seen the price of real estate in London and Paris? Just to name a few cities that also have an ongoing real-estate crash.
The issue is not the Mansions or even the Hummers, perse. It's the leveraging or debt loads that is the problem. People need to live within their means, but you can still have a Mansion if you have the cash flow to support it. You just can't finance a "dream" (now nightmare) lifestyle by juggling 20 credit cards.

If this were strictly an American thing, we would not be in a global financial crisis.

And if Americans didn't buy these things, countries like China and Mexico and India would have a whole lot less to manufacture. All this to say that we're all in this together. Time wasted pointing figures does nothing to solve it. Fixed the system and move on. In the mean-time prepare for a little bit of pain.

Like all things, there needs to be a happy-medium. Anything to excess is unhealthy.

global crisis.

step 1- america starts a practice called 'sub-prime' lending. (This form of lending is predatory)

step 2 - sub-prime lendees start to naturally fail at making their payments

step 3- before those failures occur, banks and lending firms start to sell the bad debts in neat tidy little packages and spread that bad debt out across the whole economy. Buying and selling of debt is a commodity in practice.

step 4- larger financial institutions sell billions of dollars worth of these packages to other companies or spread that debt into teh books of their overseas operations.

step 5 - like juggling the 20 credit cards, this practice doesn't live long before real liquidity is required to make a payment.

step 6- there is no liquidity so write downs occur and investors start losing money like crazy.

step 7- the larger investors start to pull their money out.

step 8- the small investors follow suit

step 9- many banks and lending institutions go insolvent because they own bad debt that has been written down.

step 10 - the stock market collapses and businesses start to fail dramatically in a short period of time (just like you would if you had no income and revolving debt)

step 11- taxpayers are stoleen from to prop up the institutions taht practiced these predatory scams and to help teh other companies who gave it buy in.

step 12- a recession and deflation occurs

step 13- a lame duck president throws even more money at it in thehopes that a depression doesn't occur while he is sitting

step 14- that 800 billion will run out some time around January 22 and the new president will be left to hold the bag so to speak.

step 15- the depression occurs, but will only last about 2 years

step 16- enough people are now insolvent that there is mass poverty, and resulting unrest.

step 17- war?

step 18 - millions dead, but at least the market has corrected.


source of the problem? George Bush administrations domestic financial policies.

The trickle down economics? Everyone who does business with america gets to eat that failure and the problem is global.

The blame rest squarely on the shoulders of the Bush administrations domestic financial policies.

[1bad65]

You forgot a step between #1 and #2. Thats the step where the Democrats defeated Republican efforts to force those making the bad loans to open their books. They also say there is 'no crisis'. Thus making this statement of yours a totally ignorant statement:


The blame rest squarely on the shoulders of the Bush administrations domestic financial policies.

Here you can see it happen on CSPAN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

[1bad65]

So how is the subprime mess Bush's fault? :confused:

You know I've asked that question repeatedly.

[MasterKiller]

So how is the subprime mess Bush's fault? :confused:

You know I've asked that question repeatedly.

WASHINGTON – The Bush administration backed off proposed crackdowns on no-money-down, interest-only mortgages years before the economy collapsed, buckling to pressure from some of the same banks that have now failed. It ignored remarkably prescient warnings that foretold the financial meltdown, according to an Associated Press review of regulatory documents.

"Expect fallout, expect foreclosures, expect horror stories," California mortgage lender Paris Welch wrote to U.S. regulators in January 2006, about one year before the housing implosion cost her a job.

Bowing to aggressive lobbying — along with assurances from banks that the troubled mortgages were OK — regulators delayed action for nearly one year. By the time new rules were released late in 2006, the toughest of the proposed provisions were gone and the meltdown was under way.

"These mortgages have been considered more safe and sound for portfolio lenders than many fixed rate mortgages," David Schneider, home loan president of Washington Mutual, told federal regulators in early 2006. Two years later, WaMu became the largest bank failure in U.S. history.

The administration's blind eye to the impending crisis is emblematic of its governing philosophy, which trusted market forces and discounted the value of government intervention in the economy. Its belief ironically has ushered in the most massive government intervention since the 1930s.

Many of the banks that fought to undermine the proposals by some regulators are now either out of business or accepting billions in federal aid to recover from a mortgage crisis they insisted would never come. Many executives remain in high-paying jobs, even after their assurances were proved false.

In 2005, faced with ominous signs the housing market was in jeopardy, bank regulators proposed new guidelines for banks writing risky loans. Today, in the midst of the worst housing recession in a generation, the proposal reads like a list of what-ifs:

_Regulators told bankers exotic mortgages were often inappropriate for buyers with bad credit.

_Banks would have been required to increase efforts to verify that buyers actually had jobs and could afford houses.

_Regulators proposed a cap on risky mortgages so a string of defaults wouldn't be crippling.

_Banks that bundled and sold mortgages were told to be sure investors knew exactly what they were buying.

_Regulators urged banks to help buyers make responsible decisions and clearly advise them that interest rates might skyrocket and huge payments might be due sooner than expected.

Those proposals all were stripped from the final rules. None required congressional approval or the president's signature.

"In hindsight, it was spot on," said Jeffrey Brown, a former top official at the Office of Comptroller of the Currency, one of the first agencies to raise concerns about risky lending.

Federal regulators were especially concerned about mortgages known as "option ARMs," which allow borrowers to make payments so low that mortgage debt actually increases every month. But banking executives accused the government of overreacting.

Bankers said such loans might be risky when approved with no money down or without ensuring buyers have jobs but such risk could be managed without government intervention.

"An open market will mean that different institutions will develop different methodologies for achieving this goal," Joseph Polizzotto, counsel to now-bankrupt Lehman Brothers, told U.S. regulators in a March 2006.

Countrywide Financial Corp., at the time the nation's largest mortgage lender, agreed. The proposal "appears excessive and will inhibit future innovation in the marketplace," said Mary Jane Seebach, managing director of public affairs.

One of the most contested rules said that before banks purchase mortgages from brokers, they should verify the process to ensure buyers could afford their homes. Some bankers now blame much of the housing crisis on brokers who wrote fraudulent, predatory loans. But in 2006, banks said they shouldn't have to double-check the brokers.

"It is not our role to be the regulator for the third-party lenders," wrote Ruthann Melbourne, chief risk officer of IndyMac Bank.

California-based IndyMac also criticized regulators for not recognizing the track record of interest-only loans and option ARMs, which accounted for 70 percent of IndyMac's 2005 mortgage portfolio. This summer, the government seized IndyMac and will pay an estimated $9 billion to ensure customers don't lose their deposits.

Last week, Downey Savings joined the growing list of failed banks. The problem: About 52 percent of its mortgage portfolio was tied up in risky option ARMs, which in 2006 Downey insisted were safe — maybe even safer than traditional 30-year mortgages.

"To conclude that 'nontraditional' equates to higher risk does not appropriately balance risk and compensating factors of these products," said Lillian Gavin, the bank's chief credit officer.

At least some regulators didn't buy it. The comptroller of the currency, John C. Dugan, was among the first to sound the alarm in mid-2005. Speaking to a consumer advocacy group, Dugan painted a troublesome picture of option-ARM lending. Many buyers, particularly those with bad credit, would soon be unable to afford their payments, he said. And if housing prices declined, homeowners wouldn't even be able to sell their way out of the mess.

It sounded simple, but "people kind of looked at us regulators as old-fashioned," said Brown, the agency's former deputy comptroller.

Diane Casey-Landry, of the American Bankers Association, said the industry feared a two-tiered system in which banks had to follow rules that mortgage brokers did not. She said opposition was based on the banks' best information.

"You're looking at a decline in real estate values that was never contemplated," she said.

Some saw problems coming. Community groups and even some in the mortgage business, like Welch, warned regulators not to ease their rules.

"We expect to see a huge increase in defaults, delinquencies and foreclosures as a result of the over selling of these products," Kevin Stein, associate director of the California Reinvestment Coalition, wrote to regulators in 2006. The group advocates on housing and banking issues for low-income and minority residents.

The government's banking agencies spent nearly a year debating the rules, which required unanimous agreement among the OCC, Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., Federal Reserve, and the Office of Thrift Supervision — agencies that sometimes don't agree.

The Fed, for instance, was reluctant under Alan Greenspan to heavily regulate lending. Similarly, the Office of Thrift Supervision, an arm of the Treasury Department that regulated many in the subprime mortgage market, worried that restricting certain mortgages would hurt banks and consumers.

Grovetta Gardineer, OTS managing director for corporate and international activities, said the 2005 proposal "attempted to send an alarm bell that these products are bad." After hearing from banks, she said, regulators were persuaded that the loans themselves were not problematic as long as banks managed the risk. She disputes the notion that the rules were weakened.

In the past year, with Congress scrambling to stanch the bleeding in the financial industry, regulators have tightened rules on risky mortgages.

Congress is considering further tightening, including some of the same proposals abandoned years ago

[uki]

it was and is a planned finacial crisis with the only intention to drag america into a civil war which will justify the act of placing foreign troops to enforce martial law, inviting the U.N. to help restore order bringing the once great nation to it's knees... and these next goons in office are no better than the goons of the past eight years; they are all one and the same... the prividged elite who cares nothing for the citizens of this nation. :)

[1bad65]

What's the source of that article?

It's quite vague about Bush's alleged role. Only the mention of a supposed letter. :rolleyes: My proof actually has people ON TAPE fighting off any regulation and saying there is 'no crisis'.

If the Bush Administration is so full of blame, how do you explain all those Republicans on the video wanting more accountability and open books?

Once again, and do not forget; Franklin Raines was the CEO at Fannie Mae and also an advisor to Hussein Obama. Under Raines, Fannie Mae began a pilot program in 1999 to issue bank loans to individuals with low to moderate income, and to ease credit requirements on loans that Fannie Mae purchased from banks. Raines promoted the program saying that it would allow consumers who were "a notch below what our current underwriting has required" to get home loans.

Link to the Raines quote and also reporting how the Clinton Administration pressured them to increase risky loans:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[MasterKiller]

What's the source of that article?

It's quite vague about Bush's alleged role. Only the mention of a supposed letter. :rolleyes: My proof actually has people ON TAPE fighting off any regulation and saying there is 'no crisis'.

If the Bush Administration is so full of blame, how do you explain all those Republicans on the video wanting more accountability and open books?

Once again, and do not forget; Franklin Raines was the CEO at Fannie Mae and also an advisor to Hussein Obama. Under Raines, Fannie Mae began a pilot program in 1999 to issue bank loans to individuals with low to moderate income, and to ease credit requirements on loans that Fannie Mae purchased from banks. Raines promoted the program saying that it would allow consumers who were "a notch below what our current underwriting has required" to get home loans.

Link to the Raines quote and also reporting how the Clinton Administration pressured them to increase risky loans:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNqQx7sjoS8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkAtUq0OJ68

[SimonM]

I've seen all these news articles about people going shopping and people being killed by stampeding shoppers? WTF?
What the he ll is going on? Is stuff really that expensive that when it's on sale people go nuts?

This was happening in China over cooking oil a year ago. USA welcome to the rest of the world.

And, yes, consumerism has gone totally out of control!

Looks like uki and I actually agree... again... that must be a sign of the apocalypse. I have neither a house (I live in a co-op appartment) nor a car (will probably buy a motorcycle eventually) and yet I'm just fine. The idea that houses and cars are NEEDED (as opposed to transportation and shelter, which are quite different) is indicitave of the lie sold to the public by the commercial sector.

[1bad65]

This was happening in China over cooking oil a year ago. USA welcome to the rest of the world.

And, yes, consumerism has gone totally out of control!

Because cooking oil is such a luxury item. :rolleyes:

Again, people like you are going nuts over ONE INCIDENT. And last I heard it's still under investigation. Has the autopsy been done yet? There are those saying it was a heart attack and not a trampling death. People like you who are so quick to blame capitalism for every problem do it for a reason.....

[1bad65]

Really MK, please explain how Raines and the Clinton Administration lowered the bar, yet it's all Bush's fault.

[SimonM]

Um... point of clarification...

I don't agree with Uki's suggestion that this is part of the end-game of the NWO conspiracy theory.

Just that consumerism has run amok.

And 1bad is still on my ignore list so if I do respond to his points it's entirely coincidental... or based on things others have quoted... just thought I should include that disclaimer.

[uki]

I don't agree with Uki's suggestion that this is part of the end-game of the NWO conspiracy theory.dâmn... and here i thought i hooked the fish finally... :p


And 1bad is still on my ignore list so if I do respond to his points it's entirely coincidental... or based on things others have quoted... just thought I should include that disclaimer.i feel honored not to be on your list also...

[1bad65]

And 1bad is still on my ignore list so if I do respond to his points it's entirely coincidental... or based on things others have quoted... just thought I should include that disclaimer.

Yep, I remember being put on it. Once actual proof was demanded of you to back up your ridiculous, false assertions you hid your head in the sand like the 'man' you are.

It's actually pretty smart of you, in a way. Now you can still make those ridiculous assertions knowing I'm about the only one to demand proof. Since you can say I'm on ignore, you're hoping to be able to never have to actually source anything.

[MasterKiller]

Really MK, please explain how Raines and the Clinton Administration lowered the bar, yet it's all Bush's fault.

It's not all Bush's fault, but his policies escalted the situation. I mean, really, don't you guys get tired of blaming all of Bush's failures on Clinton?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Economies are driven by the consumer buying things they don't need.
Look at MA.
Look at Uki's own profession, stone working.
Consumerisim in of itself is not bad, uncontrollable anything is.
Fact is, if people bought only what they need, the economy would be in rather bad shape to say the very least.
There would be very little re-sale of home or even sale s of new homes.
There would be huge decrease in electronics sales AND fabrication AND innovations.
That goes the same fro every industry.

[uki]

Look at MA. Look at Uki's own profession, stone working.everyone needs to understand their inner martial arts capabilities and every civilization needs the stone masons to rebuild from the ground up when the economies collapse, war erupts, and civilization is once more brought to it's knees thru ignorance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

everyone needs to understand their inner martial arts capabilities and every civilization needs the stone masons to rebuild from the ground up when the economies collapse, war erupts, and civilization is once more brought to it's knees thru ignorance.

Well, there you have it.
:D

[SimonM]

dâmn... and here i thought i hooked the fish finally... :p
i feel honored not to be on your list also...

Are you kidding? You may be a troll but at least you are entertaining. I dislike the ignore function and save it for only those who cease to be amusing in their trolling. ;)

[uki]

Are you kidding? You may be a troll but at least you are entertaining. I dislike the ignore function and save it for only those who cease to be amusing in their trolling.well then... i will definitely keep up the good work. :D

[SimonM]

LOL!

And I'll keep trying to bring your airy posts to earth. ;)

[1bad65]

It's not all Bush's fault, but his policies escalted the situation. I mean, really, don't you guys get tired of blaming all of Bush's failures on Clinton?

How did they escalate it? Remember, Bill Clinton blamed the Democrats in Congress for the sub-prime mess, not Bush.

And it's a FACT that the Clinton Administration got the bar lowered for home mortgages, so it's not a case of conservatives blaming him for everything.

[GeneChing]

But I just want to point out that MartialArtsMart.com (our forum sponsor) is offering FREE SHIPPING for this week only (http://www.martialartsmart.net/FreeShipping.html) (11/28/08-12/5/08). So stampede on over and shop, shop, shop!

Now back to our regular flame programming. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

But I just want to point out that MartialArtsMart.com (our forum sponsor) is offering FREE SHIPPING for this week only (http://www.martialartsmart.net/FreeShipping.html) (11/28/08-12/5/08). So stampede on over and shop, shop, shop!

Now back to our regular flame programming. :rolleyes:

Free shipping to where?

[GeneChing]

...and I don't have the answer. You'll find MAM's shipping info here (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Shipping.html), but that doesn't clarify things. Perhaps contact them? It's our TN office.
Tel: USA 1-800-824-2433 INTL 1-865-686-4862
Fax: 1-865-686-4862 email: sales@martialartsmart.net

I'd contact them for you, but it's easier for them to say 'no' to me than to a customer.

[uki]

So stampede on over and shop, shop, shop! i can just imagine a frenzied mass of 2000 plus martial artists stampeding thru the doors for some great discounts on martial arts supplies.

[SimonM]

i can just imagine a frenzied mass of 2000 plus martial artists stampeding thru the doors for some great discounts on martial arts supplies.

Ladies and gentlemen:

Uki's best post ever! :D

[Matrix]

global crisis.

step 1- america starts a practice called 'sub-prime' lending. (This form of lending is predatory). Sub prime and predatory lending are not necessarily the same thing. There were definitely predatory lenders but there are equally many borrowers who were trying to scam the system by overstating their income to get low introductory ARMs. Please note, as I said ealrier, the UK, Eurozone and places like Iceland were all doing something similar. This is not strictly an American problem. So stop trying to point fingers. By the way, I'm no fan of George W. - not by a long shot.


step 2 - sub-prime lendees start to naturally fail at making their payments.They failed to make their payments because interest rates in the ARMs went up higher than they had expected. If interest rates had remained the same or fallen, then this would not have happened. People took a risk that they didn't really understand, or didn't care to try to understand.



step 3- before those failures occur, banks and lending firms start to sell the bad debts in neat tidy little packages and spread that bad debt out across the whole economy. Buying and selling of debt is a commodity in practice.Here's where a series of errors were made. The rating agencies failed to rate these CDOs properly. Financial institutions buying things that they didn't even understand. Now if the "professionals" didn't really understand these derivatives, how do you expect the lay person to grasp it.



step 17- war? .This step came much earlier. You're already in a war and that war is costing billions which hampers the governments ability to deal with the economy. Of course there's always room for more war.


The blame rest squarely on the shoulders of the Bush administrations domestic financial policies. actually it's been shown that the Clinton administration started the ball rolling and George W. gave it a helping hand. However, as individuals you need to take some personal responsibility for decisions that you make. You can't blame everything on the government. A mortgage is something that needs to be paid off at some point. Even if you get a tax deduction on the interest, it's not free money. You need to service the debt forever if you don't work it down. A little delayed gratification might go a some ways to keeping your cash flow situation healthy. But it's a lot easier to blame someone else. Isn't it?

[uki]

Ladies and gentlemen: Uki's best post ever!only because i haven't posted the better ones yet. :D