Discussion on the Development of Yi

[TenTigers]

This thread is dedicated to your experiences and methods teachers and styles-particularly Wing Chun. I have mentioned some methods I have experienced from Southern Mantis and Hung-Ga and other systems but I would like to hear from Wing Chun people.(well, this IS a Wing Chun section..)

To begin with, I am cutting and pasting a few parts from the other thread


Ten Tigers:
"well, the physics/physiology descriptions are all well and good, but when you add into the equation,"Yi Leads Ch'i" etc, things start to change.
I know from my study of SPM, that I can get good power from my strikes, good ging, etc.
BUT-when I have real intent-true desire to blast my opponent - this is when the true power comes out.
(and the hardest part is when doing two-man drills,doing this and just at the last nanosecond pull the strike from making contact)
When I don't have this intent, my teacher can always tell.
"No. No power."
"You didn't get your power out"
When you play with another, you can feel this intent. You get that,"Holy sheet! He's really trying to hurt me-That would've killed me, had it connected!" feeling.
There becomes a difference between a strike that while it most definately hurt your opponent, will not damage him, and one that will.
This intent, makes the difference.
I cannot explain it any other way. It is a feeling.
I know some of you can explain this in better terms.
So, have at it. What are your thoughts?

oh, BTW-I would prefer to hear from those who have experienced this exact thing and know what I am referring to, rather than those who sit on the sidelines and cast stones. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ten Tigers:
"Intent is universal and is not tied and restricted to one style.
I have seen many different methods of playing SLT as well as SBG in SPM.
You can play it soft like Tai Gik Kuen or hard like saamjien, you can do the tan/wu/fook three times section with foward intent going both out and inward, you can punch with power or not. Each method produces a different feeling.
I believe the connection with intent is constant throughout, whether the tension is manifested or not. Therein lies the problem. How do you convey the feeling of intent, in words, so that the student will understand?
Some may say that youcannot have intent when playing SLT slow and soft, but intent is in the mind. The mind connects to the body.
That, and it is not a one movement solution, but only a piece of the pie.
Once intent is understood, it can then be placed into any number of devices.

But, I manitain, No intent, No Ging. No Sun=No Yi=no Ging. If your spirit is not into it, then how can you have intent? If there is no intent, then how do you issue ALL your power? If you are not spiritually*/emotionally connected, then there will always be holding back of power.

*not lofty spirit, but fighting, emotional spirit "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Henrick writes:

"Jin, Jing, Keng, Force flow or whatever one likes to call it is a phenomenon it is not a theory.

The TCMA has the training process to evoke different type of Force flow at will.

However they tend to get so involved in the subject they tend to miss the whole point that the artist just painted a great picture.---------

What is it? Does one have it? which type? what is the process to train and evoke?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mano-Mano

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mano Mano
My point is you’re dissecting & isolating something that is only a small part of TCMA & TCMA is holistic it all works as a whole.



P.S. I have been taught a training process for ging/jin & as the martial arts are in reality a physical medium & not metaphysical, training processes really don’t through words alone.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Henrick:

"for any advance TCMA training of Jin
with only physical and without Yee and Shen are incomplete training and in fact low level.

Yee and Shen and Silence are a part of holistic practice of cultivation elements.


Yee and Shen are as common as muscle and bone for TCMA artists who knows the process of cultivating Jin. Yee and Shen is not metaphysical in fact they are daily term from TCMA to traditional chinese medicine to everyday life.


Thus, one cannot use one's incomplete or unholistic training as a reference or standard.



If you disagree then please share and describe you ging/jin training process and see what is contribute to the different part of the GUIDED FORCE FLOW interm of what is the source of the power, the guidance system, the transportation system, the acceleration system. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ten Tiggers:
"(paraphrased from memory)
Dan Inosanto recalls when Bruce Lee was instructing him in the sidekick. Dan kept kicking the bag and Bruce was telling him that he wasn't getting his true power out. Dan kept kicking it, trying to kick harder and harder, getting more and more frustrated..
Finally, Bruce walks up to him and slapped him across the face, and said,"Again."
Infuriated, Dan kicked the bag with more power than he'd ever delivered.
Bruce smiled at him and calmly said,"That's it."

When I was 17, a guy I was training with had me visualize horrible, violent things happening to my family and loved ones. Then he had me kick through a two by four. At 130lbs, this was an extraordinary feat. I had never developed this kind of power before. I later was able to repeat this when in the dormitory, some guys had locked my girlfriend in their dorm with them. I kicked the steel door open, breaking it.
No mysticism. Just Yi+Lik=Ging. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Henrick's response:

The caution about this type of Yi -body evoking is that it cause tensing in the artery or blood vessel and accelerate the body circulation.... thus the Qi will be dissipate and Shen dull after awhile. and if there is any sickness in the body such as when human is after 40 years old the body might not be able to take this type of stimulation and could cause Kidney and Heart damanges . This type of evoking is emotional based. and after awhile one could subject to uncontrol emotional drive. One's temper get worse and worse, always angry of depress....etc.


With this reason, the ancient Chinese is going another path, the soft jin path which is entering the silence and evoke the power from there.where non or less dissipative could be attain.... a different path. it by passed emotion. or penetrate emotion...

if you notice the starting or ending of internal art or even the Shao Lin Yi Jin Jing always one needs to stand there for awhile to get into silence.....etc that is the cultivation ...

Using Yi to transport the Qi and using Qi to transport physical body is the alternative path compare with what we have above --- using emotion to evoke Yi using emotion to push the physical body.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ten Tigers:
"I agree. This was an extreme case, and I do not, and have not practiced it since, but it is a glimpse of what one is capable of when yi is engaged, and combined with lik.
In Hung-Ga, the five animals form develops the five emotions-each emotion associated with a partcular animal and its corresponding techniques. The emotions are a mindset. Anger, Spirit,cunning,calmness, cold-blooded. They join together to develop overall mindset, so one is not enraged, yet can release rage-like power in an instant. The calmness of the crane controls the anger of the Tiger. The cold-blooded mind of the snake combines with the cunning of the leopard, etc, etc.
In Southern Mantis, the Sam Bo Ging (some schools call it Sam Bo Jin) and the training develop this mindset. The posture connects (theoretically) oneself to their reptilian mind. The intent is pushed and pushed so that as soon as the posture is created, as soon as the Hut Yee Sao (SPM's Bye Jong) comes up, the mind/intent switches on.



So, how in Wing Chun does the instructor guide the student in the development of Yi?

BTW- this might be a very individual thing, depending on the Sifu's method.

[stonecrusher69]

My self its easy so feel who has real intent and who does not.At least when I play chi sao.The feelings you receive when touching someone is east to pick up on. even if I know a punchwill get in if I feel no real intent I don't even bother blocking the punch. It's like a wasted movment of energy. And what I do is give what seems like real intent but it no intent at all.That way he'll over react then it will be easy to land a blow.

[TenTigers]

this is true-wonder why they didn't call it,"Yi-sao!";)

[Hendrik]

So, how in Wing Chun does the instructor guide the student in the development of Yi?

BTW- this might be a very individual thing, depending on the Sifu's method.



Cant speak for other lineages of WCK.

For me, from the lineage of Yik Kam from the read boad, the SLT kuen kuit's stanza write it clearly.

"Collect the Yi union with the Shen in the Shoulder width Stance."

This is the path way to enter into silence which is the core of SLT, as it says in the WCK kuen Kuit, " Comes accept... Using silence to lead action."

Here the first half of the clip is the mind/breathing/body multi-dimetional process which leading to enter into the "state " as describe in the stanza. NOtice, the all are action of mind/breathng/body..aware and feedback..... but not about thinking, one dont take the path of think thoughts when develop "collect Yi and union with Shen."



http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g



BTW: this is a process inherit from Emei 12 zhuang internal art and the second half is the Emei 12 Zhuang Siu Zi Juang or what We believe with evidence to be one of the mother component of SLT among the Fujian White Crane....

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is Intent and then there is INTENT.
Very few people have ever felt INTENT.

[imperialtaichi]

I recently presented a lecture/workshop at a medical conference in Sydney on this very subject.

Don't over complicate Shen and Yi. Instead, just look at Shen as the "Subconscious True Mind" while Yi is the "Conscious Aware Mind".

A person is most effective when the Shen and Yi is united.

Example 1:
Consciousely, you want to smash the person, your Yi. Subconsciousely, you are worried about the consequences etc so you are not sure if you really want to do it, your Shen. Your Shen and Yi are not aligned. Are you going to be effective?

Example 2:
Someone throwing you a ball. Subconsciousely, you have mapped out the distance, speed of the ball, wind speed etc so you instinctly moveto the right place to receive the ball. But consciousely, you start thinking about unnecessary issues like people watching, what if I miss, is it going to hurt my hands etc so you ended up running to the wrong spot.

The body and it's functions (including the mind, in a neurological sense) is such a marvalous machine that if we fully integrate our conscious thoughts with what it can do, we will be a lot more effective. Your "internal" training should involve this.

The Shen Yi, when fighting, can be used to trick the opponent because naturally people can sense it. It can also be hidden to avoid detection.

Qi, which is an integral component of Shen Yi, is another can of worm. :)

Cheers,
John

[TenTigers]

The Shen Yi, when fighting, can be used to trick the opponent because naturally people can sense it. It can also be hidden to avoid detection.


"These are not the droids you're looking for.."


hey, you don't happen to work for Massive Dynamic, do you?

[imperialtaichi]

"These are not the droids you're looking for.."


hey, you don't happen to work for Massive Dynamic, do you?

Huh? :confused:

[TenTigers]

if you've ever seen the show, "The Fringe," Massive Dynamics was a conglomerate that researched and developed such things as mind control, cloning, genetic engineering, psychic warefare, biological warefare, etc.

anyway, Dr. John, could you go into more detail on how the Yi and Shen are developed?

[Vajramusti]

Good post John.
Clarifies an important part of the TCMA paradigm.

joy chaudhuri

[MysteriousPower]

My self its easy so feel who has real intent and who does not.At least when I play chi sao.The feelings you receive when touching someone is east to pick up on. even if I know a punchwill get in if I feel no real intent I don't even bother blocking the punch. It's like a wasted movment of energy. And what I do is give what seems like real intent but it no intent at all.That way he'll over react then it will be easy to land a blow.



Stonecrusher,
No offense but this sounds like you're reason for not deflecting the incoming blow seems like a way to protect your ego. What it seems like you are saying is that he got a shot in and you could not get to it in time. Imagine what would have happened if that "no intent" strike was from a knife.

[Hendrik]

Qi, which is an integral component of Shen Yi, is another can of worm. :)



WHat is Qi? and how to evoke it?

[TenTigers]

hiding your intent-maintaining a "poker face" yet having that intent turned on like a switch-calm, yet intent. Focused,yet intent. Training to maintain this calm, yet excited state at once. Focused, yet hair-trigger explosiveness.
How is this achieved?
When we practice, we face each other. One is the feeder-the attacker.
The idea is to strike before his strike barely gets started-intercept not his strike, but his intent.
Attack the attack.
Attack and defend st the same time-even attack before you defend
and continue your attack untill he is defeated.
"Hand to hand ,heart to heart
you don't move, I won't start
But if you move, I hit first
and I don't stop untill there's blood"

evetually, the attacks come harder, faster, with more intent.
The reaction is charged with adreneline, hostility,power, yet controlled.
easier said, than done.

[imperialtaichi]

if you've ever seen the show, "The Fringe," Massive Dynamics was a conglomerate that researched and developed such things as mind control, cloning, genetic engineering, psychic warefare, biological warefare, etc.

Ah, I never watched "The Fringe", I thought it must have been some show about hair stylists. :)

[imperialtaichi]

anyway, Dr. John, could you go into more detail on how the Yi and Shen are developed?

Hello Ten Tigers,

My experience is that, Shen and Yi are naturally there in everyone; it is not so much developing them, but letting them line up without intervering them. I find there are two ways of integrating Shen and Yi:

1. Stop thinking, stop analysing, stop calculating. Let your innerself come out. When that happens, your intention becomes clear and that becomes close to the true Yi.

or

2. Sometimes "chatters" in your head is hard to stop. While we are doing the form we start thinking about work, family, the nice car we saw the other day etc and that interferes the Shen Yi. But if we recognize and accept the "chatter" as a background noise and nothing more, we can still look inwards and communicate with the Shen. Similar to the fact that in a noisy cafe, we can still filter out the surrounding noice without having to silence them, and hold a conversation with someone. But of course, if the noice gets too loud, we may still have a problem trying to listen.

This is just my opinions only. Thanks for starting this interesting thread. It would be nice to hear some of the other experiences from everyone else.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

WHat is Qi? and how to evoke it?

Hello Hendrik,

No one knows what Qi REALLY is; No one can prove that it exists. The only thing is that the "subjective sensation" of Qi can be felt by many people, can be trained and developed. But all these claims are subjective and haven't been able to be measure scientifically yet.

I believe the Qi sensation is a form of synesthesia, coming from a lot of complex signals from our body (primary information), summarized and presented to our conscious awareness (secondary sensation) in an understandable form. If we have to be aware of every single sensing mechanism from our entire body consciously, we will not be able to handle it. A lot of these information are processed subconsciousely.

I look at Qi as a kind of communication between our consciousness and our body and the environment. Shen Yi and Qi works together.

The best way to experience it is the slow Tan Sao section of the SLT. Let the Shen Yi Qi take over. Until you know what you are looking for, fast actions tend to "mask" the Qi sensation.

Cheers,
John

p.s. look up the phenomenon of "Human Echo Location" in some blind people. It is an interesting example of how the body processes sound echoes (complex primary information) to give the blind person a sensation of "pressure" (secondary sensation) from objects that they can feel without touching.

[Hendrik]

Hello Hendrik,

No one knows what Qi REALLY is; No one can prove that it exists. The only thing is that the "subjective sensation" of Qi can be felt by many people, can be trained and developed. But all these claims are subjective and haven't been able to be measure scientifically yet.

I believe the Qi sensation is a form of synesthesia, coming from a lot of complex signals from our body (primary information), summarized and presented to our conscious awareness (secondary sensation) in an understandable form. If we have to be aware of every single sensing mechanism from our entire body consciously, we will not be able to handle it. A lot of these information are processed subconsciousely.

I look at Qi as a kind of communication between our consciousness and our body and the environment. Shen Yi and Qi works together.

The best way to experience it is the slow Tan Sao section of the SLT. Let the Shen Yi Qi take over. Until you know what you are looking for, fast actions tend to "mask" the Qi sensation.

Cheers,
John

p.s. look up the phenomenon of "Human Echo Location" in some blind people. It is an interesting example of how the body processes sound echoes (complex primary information) to give the blind person a sensation of "pressure" (secondary sensation) from objects that they can feel without touching.


John,

Thank you and appreciate for your sharing.

I can feel your passionate and dedication in sharing these subject.




Different with your view,

For me , thus I have heard,
from the classical text, Zhen Qi is as real as money. Shen is not subsconcious mind, Yi is not conscious mind, evoke of Zhen Qi doesnt need to be in the Tan Sau posture or "subjective sensation". BTW, if it is a subjective sensation, then how can one differentiate it as real Qi or one's mental illusion? in fact in today's world lots of so called Qi are just sensation create by mind that is not Zhen Qi. and the practitioners doesnt know that instead making claim they got it. To evoke Zhen Qi there is a standard for many different components which is clearly written in the classical text.


See, according to the classical text, Shen has the post birth Shen and the pre birth Shen. the So called Subsconcious mind is for most a beautiful synomane of " not sure, dont know" what it is.

And also what I have learned, for some people, is that thier so called subsconcious mind are just a program evoke or running automatic or default by habitual where they are not aware.

Thus, is subsconcious the mind run automatic/habitual by passed, or the dont know, or the not sure, or the may be, or the confuse scattering mind...... ?

For me, only if one is clear in the every details one could evoke the states at will and point out what it is and how to get there.

So far the new age or general explaination of the topic of Shen, Qi, and Yi doesnt be able to tell the full and details stories because lots of these stuffs are based on mind speculation instead of attainment as in the ancient time.

There are levels which are deeper then Mind where Mind cannot describe. and thus, the path way to the deeper level is cut off due to the Mind becomes the limiter of the limitless. in chinese the type of theory about Dao which based on mind speculation is called 似是而非, or seems true but actually it is false information.


But as the ancient sage put it, these type of components or kung fu , heaven forbid to use them in human fighting or martial arts application, for the heaven is love and love is non dual. for what one give out , one will get back. Even if one is Shao Lin monks or Zen monks, if one violate the Nature one got to pay the price. NOt to mention, if one's heart is full of ANTI or Hate or Fighting or Hurting.. what karma is one attracting? that is clearly predictable.


See, there are only law of cause and effect, law of attraction and law of gravity but one resist to accept them and insteat trying to ignore them. It is not mysticism or metaphysics or all those complex mind create theories. Cooking sand will not become rice. That certain. and these all applied in the realm of Yi, Qi, Shen,



Everyone choose their own karma. The above is just my thoughts for chatting shake.

Best Regards
Hendrik

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks for sharing Hendrik. You have raised many good points especially the part about mental illusion. It is indeed a dangerous trap.

It is good that many of us are willing to put our views across openly. Progress comes from open minded discussions.

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

Thanks for sharing Hendrik. You have raised many good points especially the part about mental illusion. It is indeed a dangerous trap.

It is good that many of us are willing to put our views across openly. Progress comes from open minded discussions.

Cheers,
John


John,

What is Pre birth Shen and post birth Shen for you? and how to evoke them?


Best Regards
Hendrik

[CFT]

What is Pre birth Shen and post birth Shen for you? and how to evoke them?Never heard of these terms before. I have heard of them in reference to Qi/Chi.

Pre-congenital Qi (Xiantian zhen qi)
Post-congenital Qi (Houtian zhen qi)

[stonecrusher69]

Stonecrusher,
No offense but this sounds like you're reason for not deflecting the incoming blow seems like a way to protect your ego. What it seems like you are saying is that he got a shot in and you could not get to it in time. Imagine what would have happened if that "no intent" strike was from a knife.

Not Blocking a punch is not ego just smart thinking. Example.. say if a 5 year old kid punches you do you think that punch means anything and will cause any damage? its the same in in chi sao or fighting. Some movements don't need a direct response. I'm sure in boxing or any other art your will see the same thing. If a blow is weak why respond to it? it like patty cake chi sao you see beginners do. What does that mean? If there is no power it's wasted movement. In fighting you'll get hit but i'll take a hit if I can position myself to cause more damage to him then to me. It's not about I could not block his punch its about wining . You said " what would happen if that no intent was a knife" that something different a knife is a knife and a punch is a punch and require different tactics.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I understand the Pre-heaven and post-heaven or pre-congenital and post-congenital aspects of being as being divided into Hun, Po, Jing, and Shen.

The Hun is our spirit before birth - our innate aspirations in life.
The Po is our body before birth - our neurosomatic organization.
The Shen is our spirit after birth - our recognition of self and situation.
The Jing is our body after birth - our neurosomatic adaptation.

When the Hun guides the Shen, we are in tune with our innate aspirations.

The Yi is a post-heaven development - in pre-heaven, it was the Qi between the Hun and the Po. A clear Yi allows the Hun to commune clearly with the Shen. An unclear Yi can misinform the Hun and muddle the Shen.

Interestingly enough, if you look at Chi Sim Weng Chun, they use the characters "Perpetual Springtime." The Hun is assosciated with the Liver, and the liver with spring. One could therefore understand Weng Chun to be an art that seeks to perpetually allow the innate aspirations of an individual to manifest - be it finishing a fight in an optimal manner, eating when you're hungry or sleeping when you're tired.

[bennyvt]

those people that say that they will take a punch to get better anything haven been hit properly. If the guy is bigger or has a good punch you get knocked out. Making assumptions of attacks means that you are not making use of the opening when the person attacks. In my trainin in chi sao it will not let me let a punch in as i push forward and it works on its own. Intent to hit doesnt mean that it wont cause damage

[Hendrik]

Never heard of these terms before. I have heard of them in reference to Qi/Chi.

Pre-congenital Qi (Xiantian zhen qi)
Post-congenital Qi (Houtian zhen qi)


Thus, I have heard,

Pre-birth Shen is Xian Tian Yuan Shen ( pre heaven original shen)

Post birth Shen is Hou Tian Sheh shen (post heaven recogni-able shen)


These are the core of all Qigong.

Actually the term Qigong is not that correct. The reality is Shen Kung.

after the ren mai penetrated, when doing the Du mai penetration if one doesnt enter into Xian Tian then the kung fu is limited.

[Hendrik]

I understand the Pre-heaven and post-heaven or pre-congenital and post-congenital aspects of being as being divided into Hun, Po, Jing, and Shen.

The Hun is our spirit before birth - our innate aspirations in life.
The Po is our body before birth - our neurosomatic organization.
The Shen is our spirit after birth - our recognition of self and situation.
The Jing is our body after birth - our neurosomatic adaptation.

When the Hun guides the Shen, we are in tune with our innate aspirations.

The Yi is a post-heaven development - in pre-heaven, it was the Qi between the Hun and the Po. A clear Yi allows the Hun to commune clearly with the Shen. An unclear Yi can misinform the Hun and muddle the Shen.

Interestingly enough, if you look at Chi Sim Weng Chun, they use the characters "Perpetual Springtime." The Hun is assosciated with the Liver, and the liver with spring. One could therefore understand Weng Chun to be an art that seeks to perpetually allow the innate aspirations of an individual to manifest - be it finishing a fight in an optimal manner, eating when you're hungry or sleeping when you're tired.


There are lots of theories and speculation. However, can one use them to cultivate to penetrate the 20 medirians of the body? if not what use is those ideas?

it is similar to knowing the name OBama doesnt means one knows Obama. and what good is that? sure more story can be made with Obama this or that but those get too far away and become as valueable only as something in the gosip magazine.

Dont believe me? if you really got the shen and yi and qi, you should be able to heal yourself. So make a test to heal yourself from common flue. see how it goes? not to mention these shen ...qi can heal even what western medicine cant do the job. See, I rather test this stuff in healing then go out there and promote " oh , if you got the Yi, you can be the best fighter....." those are ego boosting destructive stuffs.

BTW, with Shen and Yi topic, one doesnt start with I understand. but I "know" because these stuffs are beyond mind.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

BTW, with Shen and Yi topic, one doesnt start with I understand. but I "know" because these stuffs are beyond mind.

Knowledge is required to apply information. Understanding is required to encode and send information.

We are communicating via symbols. Hence we must encode and decode the symbols we use, and use our "understanding."

A "topic" is an act of information encoding. If everyone else had the same fixation as you regarding "understanding" vs. "knowing" and "application" vs. "communication," then I would suspect that there was a problem with the way I encoded and sent information, and would try again. However, if you're alone in your criticism, it most likely indicates a problem with the reception and decoding of information within the context of the communication medium. The problem is on your end, not mine. Check your Yi, it may be fogged up due to dampness. ;)

If ever we meet and practice together, then you can "correct" me in regards to "understanding" vs. "knowing," and we can "apply" more than "communicate." As long as we're communicating via a non-experiential medium, kindly strive to receive, decode and "understand" the message within its context.

[Hendrik]

Knowledge is required to apply information. Understanding is required to encode and send information.

We are communicating via symbols. Hence we must encode and decode the symbols we use, and use our "understanding."

A "topic" is an act of information encoding. If everyone else had the same fixation as you regarding "understanding" vs. "knowing" and "application" vs. "communication," then I would suspect that there was a problem with the way I encoded and sent information, and would try again. However, if you're alone in your criticism, it most likely indicates a problem with the reception and decoding of information within the context of the communication medium. The problem is on your end, not mine. Check your Yi, it may be fogged up due to dampness. ;)

If ever we meet and practice together, then you can "correct" me in regards to "understanding" vs. "knowing," and we can "apply" more than "communicate." As long as we're communicating via a non-experiential medium, kindly strive to receive, decode and "understand" the message within its context.

Thanks for sharing!

[imperialtaichi]

pre-birth shen is xian tian yuan shen ( pre heaven original shen)

post birth shen is hou tian sheh shen (post heaven recogni-able shen)


有為而為者, 識神也; 無為而為者, 元神也.
識神用事, 元神退聽. 元神作主, 識神化為元神.

which kind of translate to:

"When you are consciously doing, it is your Sheh Shen. When you are "Wu Wei" (naturally?) doing, it is your Yuan Shen. We work through Shen Shen, while the Yuan Shen whatches over. When the Yuan Shen becomes the master, Sheh Shen transforms into Yuan Shen."

This seems to relate to the interaction between the conscious and the subconscious.

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

有為而為者, 識神也; 無為而為者, 元神也.
識神用事, 元神退聽. 元神作主, 識神化為元神.

which kind of translate to:

"When you are consciously doing, it is your Sheh Shen. When you are "Wu Wei" (naturally?) doing, it is your Yuan Shen. We work through Shen Shen, while the Yuan Shen whatches over. When the Yuan Shen becomes the master, Sheh Shen transforms into Yuan Shen."

This seems to relate to the interaction between the conscious and the subconscious.

Cheers,
John

John,

Great, that is exactly true.

IMHO


Now, the key is how to awake into

無為而為

元神作主, 識神化為元神. or non dual.


That for me is beyond conscious and subconcious because the general public's Conscious and subsconcious reference are both still within the realm of 識神.

IE: when we are dreaming we think we are awake. but those who is awake knows both dreaming and awake without need to think. most general public doesnt know awake but trying to imagine /think what is awake within thier dream.



In the ancient text, it is encourage the cultivator to go there and taste it, instead of using 識神用事, 元神退聽 to understand . but have a good look at the original face.



furthermore, as you state " just look at Shen as the ---"Subconscious True Mind" while Yi is the "Conscious Aware Mind"." as your above translation ---"consciously doing, it is your Sheh Shen"

how will you differentiate shen, 識神 Sheh Shen ,and Yi if they are all conscious? Thus, is Yi conscious Aware mind?


Best Regards
Hendrik

[CFT]

Great sharing John and Hendrik. I was going to ask what the character for "sheh" was. John's post framed it in terms that I can understand. But of course the key is what methods you use to integrate the conscious and subconscious mind. Is this similar to what sportsmen/women call: "in the zone"?

[imperialtaichi]

Is this similar to what sportsmen/women call: "in the zone"?

Interesting observations, CFT. Never thought of it but I think it could be quite similar.

Some old Daoist texts describe almost a "trance" like state.... similar to how mountaineers describe "nothing else exists, just you and the mountain" or "touching the void".

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

Great sharing John and Hendrik. I was going to ask what the character for "sheh" was. John's post framed it in terms that I can understand. But of course the key is what methods you use to integrate the conscious and subconscious mind. Is this similar to what sportsmen/women call: "in the zone"?



To be real real honest, your "can understand" is misleading you. Trying to related to what others call " in the zone" is also mislead you.


The reality is

1, practice Prayer, that gets one into Shen INSTANTLY without even one knowing it. That simple. and after lots and lots of daily practice one will know. that is let go let GOd. also as in Zen, Drop it and one get there Instantly.

Note: Drop it. the " it" is the Mind, the pattent recogniction ability which we human take as us and the master. Drop this master you will know. With this master no matter how you understand or work hard you would NOT be able to know because that is the "thing" that cover you up. So, the issue is what you TRust all in your life is actually mislead you.

Thus, in songs of enligtenment it says

WHO IS WITHOUT THOUGHT? WHO IS WITHOUT BIRTH?
IF THERE IS REALLY NO PRODUCTION, THERE IS NOTHING NOT PRODUCED.
SUMMON A WODDEN STATUE AND INQUIRE OF IT.
APPLY YOURSELF TO SEEKING BUDDHAHOOD; SOONER OR LATER YOU WILL ACCOMPLISH IT.

DO NOT SEEK THE TRUE, DO NOT CUT OFF THE FALSE,
COMPREHEND THAT BOTH DHARMAS ARE EMPTY; THEY HAVE NO CHARACTERISTICS.
WITHOUT CHARACTERISTICS, THERE IS NO EMPTINESS AND NO NON-EMPTINESS.
JUST THAT IS THE TRUE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE THUS COME ONE.

http://cttbusa.org/enlightenment/enlightenment3.asp


The easiest way to get there.




Thus, in the WCK kuen kuit, it says "using silence to lead action" silence means drop it and let it be. and the original face must and will surface.



Meditation... is not a good path if doing without a teacher because one could trap oneself into the state surface while one goes deeper into the counsciousness.



2, There are layers and levels within the concious. but those levels and layers experience in the concious such as the alpha , beta.... brain wave states doesnt means one has awaken into the Non Dual.


3, Until one can awake to the Pre Birth Yuan Shen, one truely doesnt know but trap in the formation or pattern recogniction.

another words, one doesnt get to shen via pattern recogniction as we usually does in daily life.

Thus, 99.999 % of the Shen, Yi,.... stuffs out there is misleading mind speculation if applied wrongly.



Just some thoughts.