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GeneChing
12-01-2008, 11:02 AM
I visited the Taj Hotel when I was in Mumbai. It was opulent.


Terror strike kills martial arts instructor (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3769382.cms)
28 Nov 2008, 1531 hrs IST, PTI

MUMBAI: The terrorist attack at the Oberoi hotel here claimed the life of internationally acclaimed karate exponent and instructor Farokh
Dinshaw.

Dinshaw, 50, was struck by bullets fired by the terrorists while he was dining with one of his students at a restaurant in the hotel on the night of November 26 and breathed his last at a hospital here.

The martial art exponent, who has written several books on karate, fitness and adventure, was rushed to the hospital but died in the wee hours of yesterday due to loss of blood, according to family sources.

The student escaped, they added. Dinshaw's funeral is to be held later.

uki
12-01-2008, 11:30 AM
yeah well when corrupt governments eradicate the quaility of life for the people, popular uprising seems the only means to instigate a change... power to the people...

sanjuro_ronin
12-01-2008, 11:58 AM
I visited the Taj Hotel when I was in Mumbai. It was opulent.

A loss for the MA world.
I must admit, its been awhile since I have read "wee hours" in a news article.

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 12:17 PM
yeah well when corrupt governments eradicate the quaility of life for the people, popular uprising seems the only means to instigate a change... power to the people...

This was an act of terrorism against foreign nationals in India and has zero to do with what you are saying here.

again, you exhibit your stupidity in the cause of riling people on the internet or whatever your deluded little cause is coming from your deluded little mind.

gutless and cowardly are what your words are. You do nothing in support of real change and make these ridiculous statements regarding the suffering of others.

outstanding work uki. :rolleyes:

sanjuro_ronin
12-01-2008, 12:35 PM
This was an act of terrorism against foreign nationals in India and has zero to do with what you are saying here.

again, you exhibit your stupidity in the cause of riling people on the internet or whatever your deluded little cause is coming from your deluded little mind.

gutless and cowardly are what your words are. You do nothing in support of real change and make these ridiculous statements regarding the suffering of others.

outstanding work uki. :rolleyes:

And again you fall for his obvious baiting...

uki
12-01-2008, 12:52 PM
This was an act of terrorism against foreign nationals in India and has zero to do with what you are saying here.foreign nationals who exhibit blunt ignorance to the poverty around them as they sip their fine wines and eat their fancy fish eggs and squid tentacle soups...


again, you exhibit your stupidity in the cause of riling people on the internet or whatever your deluded little cause is coming from your deluded little mind.didn't anyone ever tell you that resulting to personal insults is the manifestation of a simple and witless mind?


gutless and cowardly are what your words are.the beauty is in the eye of the beholder... atleast i have the guts to say them.


You do nothing in support of real change and make these ridiculous statements regarding the suffering of others.i beg to differ... my words strike chords with those whose chords need to be struck. you'd be suprised at the amount of people you can affect via the information superhighway. :)


outstanding work uki. you have no idea on my progress and success.



And again you fall for his obvious baiting...simple fish need simple lures to catch.

SimonM
12-01-2008, 01:03 PM
You realize that one of the first thing these *******s did was murder every person in the mumbai jewish center.

Now I'm not the biggest fan of the secular state of Israel. But this wasn't the secular state of Israel that was attacked. This was a group of people who were killed because of their religion.

uki
12-01-2008, 01:44 PM
You realize that one of the first thing these *******s did was murder every person in the mumbai jewish center.obviously we all have it coming... some just more quickly than others.


Now I'm not the biggest fan of the secular state of Israel. But this wasn't the secular state of Israel that was attacked. This was a group of people who were killed because of their religion.which is why the true person transcends religion and embraces oneness... religion is one of the greatest dividers of mankind, along with language. violence only follows violence... i resort to violence only in defense of my friends and loved ones, i do not condone the use of violence to make a point, yet unfortunately others do not see it this way, so in a sense sometimes you have to fight fire with fire... sometimes...

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 01:44 PM
And again you fall for his obvious baiting...

not really. He's a fecking idiot and a p.o.s and it needs to be pointed out.

CLFLPstudent
12-01-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by uki :
yeah well when corrupt governments eradicate the quaility of life for the people, popular uprising seems the only means to instigate a change... power to the people...I hope this thread doesn't get deleted so we can use it as reasons why ( as if anyone really needed them ) uki is an ******* of the largest magnitude.

-David

uki
12-01-2008, 01:49 PM
I hope this thread doesn't get deleted so we can use it as reasons why ( as if anyone really needed them ) uki is an ******* of the largest magnitude.aaaawwwww... freedom of expression seems to get you all worked up, yet isn't it what this country is based on? if the thread does get deleted, it is sure testament of a biased forum board, especially one in the land of the free and the home of the brave...


not really. He's a fecking idiot and a p.o.s and it needs to be pointed out.well you seem to think you are the one qualified for the job... not. really... you are as about as harmless as a mosquito larva... :p

CLFLPstudent
12-01-2008, 01:52 PM
aaaawwwww... freedom of expression seems to get you all worked up, yet isn't it what this country is based on? if the thread does get deleted, it is sure testament of a biased forum board, especially one in the land of the free and the home of the brave...

well you seem to think you are the one qualified for the job... not. really... you are as about as harmless as a mosquito larva... :p

No dick, by condoning the acts of terrorism you prove you are no better than the terrorist scumbags.

The best part of you ran down your mothers leg....

-David

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 02:00 PM
It's too bad what has happened in Mumbai (Bombay).
What is sad is that we are still working hard at getting
this cleaned up and trying to find stability.

It is also sad that people don't recognize evil and prefer to side with it because I guess that is easier in their minds than having to deal with the horror that must be dealt with if you choose to walk a path that is more upright.

Evil is to be destroyed. The supporters of it are already dead, they just fail to recognize that.

this attack is an extension of 9/11 - Madrid - London - Bali and all the rest that the terrorist religious fundamentalist groups are and have committed in the world.

The wrong people are dying. That needs to be remedied.

TenTigers
12-01-2008, 02:11 PM
religion is one of the greatest dividers of mankind, along with language. .

nope. Intelligence and the lack thereof.

SimonM
12-01-2008, 02:14 PM
aaaawwwww... freedom of expression seems to get you all worked up, yet isn't it what this country is based on?

Actually he is merely exercising his own freedom of expression to state that he thinks you are an absolute a$s.

As a proponent of freedom of speech you, Uki, should fight to the death to defend his right to say so.

taai gihk yahn
12-01-2008, 02:15 PM
It's too bad what has happened in Mumbai (Bombay).
What is sad is that we are still working hard at getting
this cleaned up and trying to find stability.

It is also sad that people don't recognize evil and prefer to side with it because I guess that is easier in their minds than having to deal with the horror that must be dealt with if you choose to walk a path that is more upright.

Evil is to be destroyed. The supporters of it are already dead, they just fail to recognize that.

this attack is an extension of 9/11 - Madrid - London - Bali and all the rest that the terrorist religious fundamentalist groups are and have committed in the world.

The wrong people are dying. That needs to be remedied.

what's "easy" is to see the world in terms of artificial constructs such as "good" and "evil", instead of trying to understand the complexities (and simplicities) that result in people making choices that result in extreme pain and suffering for others; I can be totally against what those individuals did (I am), I can be shocked and deeply moved by the callousness by which they carried out their act (e.g. - executing a six year-old in front of his parents) and then I can take a step back and try to conceptualize the circumstances in which these people found themselves in, to try to understand why, in their minds, this seemed like a "good" thing to do; and I must do this, because by doing so, it gives a better grasp of where we as a global culture is heading; and while I may not say it in exactly the same way as Uki did, I can very much appreciate how those "in power" create a climate where many people are disenfranchised to the point where they have nothing to loose by acting against basic instincts like self-preservation and survival; you may not like what he says or how he says it, but he's not wrong, per se

SimonM
12-01-2008, 02:22 PM
Thing is this:

1) Killing random people in a train station by firing blindly into a crowd of civilians is NOT an act of revolution. Merely mass murder.

2) Killing people on the basis of their religion is NOT an act of revolution. Merely antisemitism.

3) Claiming the banner of Islam to support mass murder and antisemitism is a lie! Main-stream Islam does not support these acts!

4) This spree of terrorism in Mumbai was simply an act of moral cowardice on a group of thugs and bandits who wanted to terrorize the state into releasing their criminal compatriots. Perhaps if they restricted their attacks to military targets they could claim the banner of revolutionary; they did not.

uki
12-01-2008, 03:16 PM
No dick, by condoning the acts of terrorism you prove you are no better than the terrorist scumbags.i don't condone them, i simply understand that everything happens for a reason... there is a bigger picture if you'd take the time to back up and observe it.


The best part of you ran down your mothers leg...how does one patiently respond to this immature level of thinking? does this remark prove your superior fighting ability or your humble martial arts qualities? or rather does it exploit your lack of intellectual maturity and comprehension skills? perhaps it is simply a knee-jerk reaction to upholding a status quo by following the herd mentality... baaaaaa BAAAAAAA!!! lamb is good eating by the way.

Actually he is merely exercising his own freedom of expression to state that he thinks you are an absolute a$s.i agree and it is respected.


As a proponent of freedom of speech you, Uki, should fight to the death to defend his right to say so.i would have it no other way.

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 04:02 PM
what's "easy" is to see the world in terms of artificial constructs such as "good" and "evil", instead of trying to understand the complexities (and simplicities) that result in people making choices that result in extreme pain and suffering for others; I can be totally against what those individuals did (I am), I can be shocked and deeply moved by the callousness by which they carried out their act (e.g. - executing a six year-old in front of his parents) and then I can take a step back and try to conceptualize the circumstances in which these people found themselves in, to try to understand why, in their minds, this seemed like a "good" thing to do; and I must do this, because by doing so, it gives a better grasp of where we as a global culture is heading; and while I may not say it in exactly the same way as Uki did, I can very much appreciate how those "in power" create a climate where many people are disenfranchised to the point where they have nothing to loose by acting against basic instincts like self-preservation and survival; you may not like what he says or how he says it, but he's not wrong, per se

from where I stand, it's easy for you or the like minded to vascillate and wonder why people do evil things as opposed to simply recognizing evil for what it is and ending it as quickly as possible.

what circumstance would cause someone to murder children or innocents?

how will that make anyone's life any better?

sorry, but the solution for a rabid dog is to shoot it dead. Period.

It's easy to sit back and wonder why the terrorists do what they do, especially when you sit in a warm and comfortable home and are unaffected. You will not see the same process of thought occurring in people who are indirectly or directly effected by terrorism or acts of violence.

yes, we, as a species need to make things better for all of us as a species. And we ARE doing that. In the last 100 years alone things have gotten far better for humans than worse.

I think we need to recognize a few things though, and capitulation on issues such as this in the hopes of understanding people who have already acted in an evil manner is not the way.

a hole in the head would be far more appropriate for them and any collaborators they may have.

now you may disagree with that and have some hope for something better, but, like I said, the offenders are already dead, they just don't know it yet. :)

and fwiw, if you are following the gist of this and you think this is socio-economic problems causing this, I would point you ion the direction of the statements of Osama Bin Laden who has given you, me and everyone else an ultimatum and that is "convert to islam or die".

Thanks, but I ain't converting to nothing and fundamentalists of any bent don't wanna meet me.

uki
12-01-2008, 04:26 PM
from where I stand, it's easy for you or the like minded to vascillate and wonder why people do evil things as opposed to simply recognizing evil for what it is and ending it as quickly as possible.good and evil are merely two ends of the same stick.


what circumstance would cause someone to murder children or innocents?why not ask the commanders of the american military forces that blow to bits men, women, and children with precision guided munitions...


how will that make anyone's life any better?again... why not ask an iraqi citizen how there lives are doing now that they have been liberated from oppression...


sorry, but the solution for a rabid dog is to shoot it dead. Period.i agree... only the bullet for america is still in the chamber.


It's easy to sit back and wonder why the terrorists do what they do, especially when you sit in a warm and comfortable home and are unaffected.they most likely had a home and a loving family too and then a precision guided missile blew them all to pieces...


You will not see the same process of thought occurring in people who are indirectly or directly effected by terrorism or acts of violence.you're right, just wait until it strikes your house buddy.


yes, we, as a species need to make things better for all of us as a species.thank goodness you are not spearheading the efforts...

And we ARE doing that. yeah, spreading democracy, liberating the people and blowing everyone else to bits that stands in the way.


In the last 100 years alone things have gotten far better for humans than worse.ha. considering the fact that mankind orginally lived nearly 1000 years or more, i'd say we are backtracking... no? i suppose blowing people up in other countries to liberate them is far better than burning them at the stake... more human anyway.


I think we need to recognize a few things though, and capitulation on issues such as this in the hopes of understanding people who have already acted in an evil manner is not the way.then you better take a few steps back and observe the bigger picture.


a hole in the head would be far more appropriate for them and any collaborators they may have. i agree, yet killing off the members of government that abuse their power is stooping down to their own level.


now you may disagree with that and have some hope for something better, but, like I said, the offenders are already dead, they just don't know it yet. i agree entirely...


and fwiw, if you are following the gist of this and you think this is socio-economic problems causing this, I would point you ion the direction of the statements of Osama Bin Laden who has given you, me and everyone else an ultimatum and that is "convert to islam or die".no different than a country accepting democracy or being blown to pieces... rebuilding it at the taxpayers expense mind you.


Thanks, but I ain't converting to nothing and fundamentalists of any bent don't wanna meet me.yeah cuz you are such a battle hardened and tough like kinda guy who instills fear in all those around you. :rolleyes:

keep posting... i like you better than simon now. :p

lkfmdc
12-01-2008, 04:41 PM
According to Mohammed the Prophet

1) Jews and Muslims are brothers, half brothers from Abraham

2) Women and children should NEVER be harmed, even in times of war

3) captives must be treated like guests in your house, ie never harmed

Extremists often flat out ignore the tenents of the religions they claim to represent, or are simply IGNORANT (ignorance is not stupidity) of these facts. Desperation and often perceptions of "injustice" fuel these sorts of things, no doubt, but there is also no doubt that any way you slice it, these things must be condemed for what they are and terrorism as a concept battled tooth and nail

uki
12-01-2008, 04:47 PM
According to Mohammed the Prophetdescendent of esau...


1) Jews and Muslims are brothers, half brothers from Abrahamesau and jacob.


2) Women and children should NEVER be harmed, even in times of waran honorable concept... america should learn some lessons in honor.


3) captives must be treated like guests in your house, ie never harmedah ha... abu gharib or gitmo anyone?


Extremists often flat out ignore the tenents of the religions they claim to represent, or are simply IGNORANT (ignorance is not stupidity) of these facts. Desperation and often perceptions of "injustice" fuel these sorts of things, no doubt, but there is also no doubt that any way you slice it, these things must be condemed for what they are and terrorism as a concept battled tooth and nailspreading democracy amounts to terrorism aswell...

Reverend Tap
12-01-2008, 05:13 PM
from where I stand, it's easy for you or the like minded to vascillate and wonder why people do evil things as opposed to simply recognizing evil for what it is and ending it as quickly as possible.

what circumstance would cause someone to murder children or innocents?

how will that make anyone's life any better?

sorry, but the solution for a rabid dog is to shoot it dead. Period.

It's easy to sit back and wonder why the terrorists do what they do, especially when you sit in a warm and comfortable home and are unaffected. You will not see the same process of thought occurring in people who are indirectly or directly effected by terrorism or acts of violence.

yes, we, as a species need to make things better for all of us as a species. And we ARE doing that. In the last 100 years alone things have gotten far better for humans than worse.

I think we need to recognize a few things though, and capitulation on issues such as this in the hopes of understanding people who have already acted in an evil manner is not the way.

a hole in the head would be far more appropriate for them and any collaborators they may have.

now you may disagree with that and have some hope for something better, but, like I said, the offenders are already dead, they just don't know it yet. :)

and fwiw, if you are following the gist of this and you think this is socio-economic problems causing this, I would point you ion the direction of the statements of Osama Bin Laden who has given you, me and everyone else an ultimatum and that is "convert to islam or die".

Thanks, but I ain't converting to nothing and fundamentalists of any bent don't wanna meet me.

This approach is appropriate, but only covers half of the necessary response to such deeds. Certainly, a hole in the head is the best medicine for someone dedicated to trying to kill innocents, but unless you also look beyond the immediate situation and look for the root issue that's causing otherwise generally reasonable people to turn to destructive fundamentalist modes of thought, it's impossible to actually ever solve the problem and innocents will continue to be attacked.

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 05:19 PM
This approach is appropriate, but only covers half of the necessary response to such deeds. Certainly, a hole in the head is the best medicine for someone dedicated to trying to kill innocents, but unless you also look beyond the immediate situation and look for the root issue that's causing otherwise generally reasonable people to turn to destructive fundamentalist modes of thought, it's impossible to actually ever solve the problem and innocents will continue to be attacked.

I 100% agree, but before you can paint your walls, you have to wash the grime off.
There are deeds as yet undone, that will be hard doing and they must be done before we can even approach tangible change in the greater society.

We are capable of multitasking this. We owe no favour to the ones who take actions such as these against innocents.

uki
12-01-2008, 05:21 PM
politics and religion aside, you can rest assured that if your house, family, and livelihood were erased in the name of peace and democracy, you would most definitely raise arms against those responsible, regardless of their agenda.

uki
12-01-2008, 05:23 PM
obviously david is to dumbstruck to respond to my post.

Lucas
12-01-2008, 05:52 PM
politics and religion aside, you can rest assured that if your house, family, and livelihood were erased in the name of peace and democracy, you would most definitely raise arms against those responsible, regardless of their agenda.

if you came to my home and murdered my family, i would hunt you to the ends of the earth and either erase you from its face or die trying. regardless of why you did it.

but then, im a vengful a-hole

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 05:57 PM
if you came to my home and murdered my family, i would hunt you to the ends of the earth and either erase you from its face or die trying. regardless of why you did it.

but then, im a vengful a-hole

If you go on a journey of revenge, dig two graves before you leave. - Kungfutze

Uki- You need to educate yourself, every post defines you as a larger and larger idiot. What's most amazing to me is not that they can pile sh!t so high, but that it can type! lol

uki
12-01-2008, 06:07 PM
if you came to my home and murdered my family, i would hunt you to the ends of the earth and either erase you from its face or die trying. regardless of why you did it.

but then, im a vengful a-holeso now imagine your mentality compared to that of a government defined terrorist... power to you. it takes men to stand up for their beliefs...

If you go on a journey of revenge, dig two graves before you leave.so why such the resentment towards the so called terrorist? isn't wishing a bullet in their head a form of revenge?


Uki- You need to educate yourself, every post defines you as a larger and larger idiot. idiots are nothing more than a wise man playing foolish games.


What's most amazing to me is not that they can pile sh!t so high, but that it can type! lolit's not that amazing considering your limited grasp at the nature of things... do you understand you will most likely never trump me, ever? it's people like you, with your mentality, that need to be mercifully eradicated from the human gene pool.

Lucas
12-01-2008, 06:14 PM
If you go on a journey of revenge, dig two graves before you leave. - Kungfutze



thats something im entirely comfortable with, in regards to the destruction of my family.

hell i might even did 4 or 5 graves, in case he has friends with him ;)

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 06:30 PM
thats something im entirely comfortable with, in regards to the destruction of my family.

hell i might even did 4 or 5 graves, in case he has friends with him ;)

That's the spirit!

:p

taai gihk yahn
12-01-2008, 06:32 PM
from where I stand, it's easy for you or the like minded to vascillate and wonder why people do evil things as opposed to simply recognizing evil for what it is and ending it as quickly as possible.
interesting how you a desire for critical analysis as vacillation..."evil" is relative - starts by someone thinking "someone is doing something really bad to me that I don't want them to"; when enough people think that way about something, it becomes depersonalized and takes on a life of its own; usually it revolves around pain, death, etc. which are things we don't like because they threaten our continued well-being and life; but ultimately calling something "evil" gets in the way of truly understanding it and therefore such a categorization should be eschewed (go check your Chuang Tzu, he'll back me up...)


what circumstance would cause someone to murder children or innocents?
ones that cause someone to act out against very basic instincts of self-preservation; the question is, what are these, and how must they necessarily be addressed as vigorously as possible (because, see, you only need one lunatic w/a small nuclear device to drive his van into midtown NYC; 100 years ago, that wasn't possible;)


how will that make anyone's life any better?
not in any way, shape or form; except in the mind of the guy pulling the trigger - and figuring out how to get to the root of that is critical;


sorry, but the solution for a rabid dog is to shoot it dead. Period.
I agree; by that time, it's too late to save the dog and you have to then consider only those it will bite; of course, if you can take someone alive, that is fine, but not if it increases risk to others


It's easy to sit back and wonder why the terrorists do what they do, especially when you sit in a warm and comfortable home and are unaffected. You will not see the same process of thought occurring in people who are indirectly or directly effected by terrorism or acts of violence.
it's not a case of "easy" or not to "sit-back" as you say (you seem to have this habit of trying to recast my sentiment into some sort of armchair / Monday-morning quarterback pursuit; why do you do that?); I am saying that these issues need to be examined critically and decisively without the usual platitudes and typical reductionism of "it's just evil"; that's an immature response to the complexity of human culture; "evil" and "good" are relative, and we need to look past that and examine this issue no differently than a scientist exploring the propagation of a virus through a host; as for people who have been direct victims versus those who haven't - it's the same as anything: if you have been in a situation where you have had an extreme emotional response to that situation, your capacity to analyze it dispassionately decreases relative to factors such as the degree of extremism, the degree of personal loss, etc.; at any rate, you seem to be suggesting that only the people who have been the direct victims of terror are the ones whose process of "thought" is the one that should be followed, that only they have the right to think about it, which, of course, makes no sense; if it's not your point, then why bring it up at all, as it's pretty obvious that victims are different from those not having been victimized;


yes, we, as a species need to make things better for all of us as a species. And we ARE doing that. In the last 100 years alone things have gotten far better for humans than worse.
many things are much better for many people; many things are much worse for many people as well


I think we need to recognize a few things though, and capitulation on issues such as this in the hopes of understanding people who have already acted in an evil manner is not the way.
I never in any way, shape or form suggested capitulation; unlike you, perhaps, I am able to contain two different trains of thought simultaneously: meaning that, when the guy is walking down the street spraying bullets, or even when he first signs in the guest book at the local terrorist training camp, you respect that choice and deal with him accordingly, because the stakes are too high to play nice after that; at the same time, examining the roots of what prompted him to make that choice is critical; and if you notice, I am saying that it was a choice; meaning that I am not suggesting it be looked at from a bleeding-heart perspective of "he just couldn't help himself"; no - rather, you need to identify the risk factors and act accordingly;


a hole in the head would be far more appropriate for them and any collaborators they may have.
I agree, or incarceration in very inhospitable environs;


now you may disagree with that and have some hope for something better, but, like I said, the offenders are already dead, they just don't know it yet. :)
I don't know what you mean by that


and fwiw, if you are following the gist of this and you think this is socio-economic problems causing this, I would point you ion the direction of the statements of Osama Bin Laden who has given you, me and everyone else an ultimatum and that is "convert to islam or die".
socio-economics are part of it, but it's more complex than that; you are dealing with factors including cultural / racial history going back millennia, with all involved having at one point or another heaped indignity and violence on "innocents"; Bin Laden's comments are the telos of innumerable factors coalescing into his call to unity to his "followers", his particular line in the sand (one rejected by much of Islam, per se); and I agree that once he has adopted that exclusionist ideology and made it public in conjunction with demonstrating that he has the means to enforce it that he cannot but be regarded as an imminent threat that needs to be deactivated by those he threatens, the categorical imperative is to vigorously pursue all avenues of inquiry into why this man and others like him believe in their heart of hearts that they are the ones on the side of "good";

see, if the guys who are doing "evil" thought they were doing "evil" and reveled in it as such, that's easy - it's like a comic book; but these guys think they are doing "good"; as twisted as the idea that randomly killing innocent children is to us, to them it's totally justified; the difference is that something has overidden what I believe is a very basic program in people, namely, "see helpless child crying, go comfort them"; but throughout history, we see this sort of behavior (the Brits were just as guilty of it historically as the Muslims) - so you can call it "evil", but that doesn't really get you anywhere; and just aggressively hunting it down isn't gonna solve anything either...not that you shouldn't try, because once someone is heck-bent on it, not much else to do at that point; but exploring the roots of it before it gets to that point is more beneficial - problem is, the answers that might be discovered might make a lot of so-called "good" people a little less self-righteous...


Thanks, but I ain't converting to nothing and fundamentalists of any bent don't wanna meet me.
you appear to generate that sentiment frequently...

David Jamieson
12-01-2008, 06:39 PM
dude...

fundamentalist groups that arm themselves and attack innocent people should be destroyed.

whatever their circumstance in life, they have a choice to take a different path.

If they choose to take a path whereby they destroy the people who need to be protected because they cannot protect themselves, then they should be destroyed.

We can look at how these groups arise as we clean them up.

In the meantime, when it comes right down to brass tacks, it's you or them, so if that's not black and white enough I have no idea what more to say to you.

what's it gonna be? You wanna have a pow wow and give em israel? become a muslim? what's it gonna be?

I have nothing against muslims by the way.

But let's face it, they have a wicked step son or two that they are not dealing with and if they were dealing with it then we two countries and others wouldn't have so many soldiers in their countries doing their frigging jobs for them like we did in '91 and will likely continue to do until these little crap ass kingdoms smarten the F up and get to work.

as an aside, I see teh Iraq conflict as wrong wrong wrong and I see the ush administration as acting on the borderline of criminal.

However, I see the conflict in Afghanistan as Just and doable. I see the need for someone to slap pakistan upside the head and to do it hard to shake it to its senses. I see the need for Israel to be able to fully protect themselves from countries such as Syria and jordan who constantly allow for killings to take place from within their borders. I see a need for America to withdraw it's standing army from Saudi Arabia and of all the demands, I see this as quite reasonable, I see a need for people to stop saying Palestine. There is no such thing, there is west bank and there is gaza and these places are populated with mostly syrians and jordanians with some egyptians and of course israeli arabs. I see a need to set things right in the middle east and I see that will take some blood in the sand. Not so black and white, but at the same time, completely black and white.

taai gihk yahn
12-01-2008, 06:56 PM
This approach is appropriate, but only covers half of the necessary response to such deeds. Certainly, a hole in the head is the best medicine for someone dedicated to trying to kill innocents, but unless you also look beyond the immediate situation and look for the root issue that's causing otherwise generally reasonable people to turn to destructive fundamentalist modes of thought, it's impossible to actually ever solve the problem and innocents will continue to be attacked.
yep



dude...
Dude?


fundamentalist groups that arm themselves and attack innocent people should be destroyed.
ok; but why don't they think those people are innocent? don't you find it disturbing to the point of wanting to understand it? I mean, after you've killed them all, I suppose...


whatever their circumstance in life, they have a choice to take a different path.
yes they have; I am interested in those circumstances;


If they choose to take a path whereby they destroy the people who need to be protected because they cannot protect themselves, then they should be destroyed.
if it becomes readily apparent to those they threaten, then it would be irrational for that threatened group to act otherwise


We can look at how these groups arise as we clean them up.
no, we need to look at the origins of suffering


In the meantime, when it comes right down to brass tacks, it's you or them, so if that's not black and white enough I have no idea what more to say to you.
if I were given to sarcasm, I guess this would be the place where I would humbly thank you for suffering me thus far...anyway, you seem very insistent on arguing this radical solution as if I can't appreciate the need for it - but it is the answer of last resort, an overt acknowledgment that all other options are gone; of course, it makes for a nice rallying call ;round the flag; the other way is much more boring: who can get excited about cultural sensitivity training? see, that's not the "answer" either; I mean, it's a start, but you can't really "train" people to like other people that they consider too different; which is fine by me, I don't care if people actually like each other, but the reality is that we are all on the same shrinking planet, and unless we do some serious shifts in paradigms soon, it's gonna be hell on wheels until there is a major correction of some sort...


what's it gonna be? You wanna have a pow wow and give em israel? become a muslim? what's it gonna be?
easy there, big fella - what's with the projection? who sad anything about Palest..er, Israe..er, Canna...oh, whatever; look, there is ideology and there is reality; as unjust as, say the behavior of European settlers was towards Native Amercians, at the same time "giving them back" the country isn't the solution either; with Israel, you have a lose-lose situation no matter what, so whatever way it gets resolved, someone will be unhappy; the question is, will all those involved be less unhappy than if things continue on their present course...


I have nothing against muslims by the way.
some of them are your best friends, right?


But let's face it, they have a wicked step son or two that they are not dealing with and if they were dealing with it then we two countries and others wouldn't have so many soldiers in their countries doing their frigging jobs for them like we did in '91 and will likely continue to do until these little crap ass kingdoms smarten the F up and get to work.
most "organized" religions have this; Islam, Christianity, Judaism all have extremist factions; which simply shows that this sort of thing is a generalized set of human behavior that simply takes it's environment and corrupts it to its own ends; mix in the issues of socio-economic / racial / cultural iniquity and you have a formula for violence, as has been shown time and again

uki
12-01-2008, 07:18 PM
dude...surfs up yo.


fundamentalist groups that arm themselves and attack innocent people should be destroyed.such as american imperialism... very true... kudos.


whatever their circumstance in life, they have a choice to take a different path.and so do you.


If they choose to take a path whereby they destroy the people who need to be protected because they cannot protect themselves, then they should be destroyed.such as liberating people from a self-defined oppressor?


We can look at how these groups arise as we clean them up.they arise from discombobulated foreign policy.

the rest of your rant is too useless and pointless to address further.

lkfmdc
12-01-2008, 09:50 PM
most "organized" religions have this; Islam, Christianity, Judaism all have extremist factions; which simply shows that this sort of thing is a generalized set of human behavior that simply takes it's environment and corrupts it to its own ends; mix in the issues of socio-economic / racial / cultural iniquity and you have a formula for violence, as has been shown time and again


ALL organized religions have extremists and they all share the same characteristics..... It isn't the relgion, it is the nature of man

socio-economic / racial / cultural iniquity just make the movement easier to implement. Take a marginalized person who is discontent with their lot in life, ignorant of teh true nature of a teaching (see my earlier post regarding true tenents of Islam) and convince them they are on the "right side" and everyone else is "insulting G'd" and you see the sort of things we've seen here

SoCo KungFu
12-01-2008, 09:53 PM
but the reality is that we are all on the same shrinking planet, and unless we do some serious shifts in paradigms soon, it's gonna be hell on wheels until there is a major correction of some sort...

but how do you make that shift? Its easy for one person to look objectively. But not so much to change the minds and hearts of entire cultures. Is that really feasible? Not that I disagree...just saying...can it really be done?

there is ideology and there is reality

That's the problem though. Ideas are all well and good but they don't mean jack squat if they can't be make to a reality. Until then its just all talk.

as unjust as, say the behavior of European settlers was towards Native Amercians, at the same time "giving them back" the country isn't the solution either; with Israel, you have a lose-lose situation no matter what, so whatever way it gets resolved, someone will be unhappy; the question is, will all those involved be less unhappy than if things continue on their present course...

Not that this is directed at you, but just since its sorta in your post. I really can't stand people *****ing about something that happened 200 years ago. Its not going to bring my tribe back and it sure as hell doesn't fix anything in my life (or anyone else's). What's done is done. People saying crap like that post Uki made earlier doesn't do jack to change things. The simple truth is someone had what someone else wanted. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. Crying about it won't make it better. Until someone can find a way to fix it, the only thing you can do is make sure you are on the winning side.

most "organized" religions have this; Islam, Christianity, Judaism all have extremist factions; which simply shows that this sort of thing is a generalized set of human behavior that simply takes it's environment and corrupts it to its own ends; mix in the issues of socio-economic / racial / cultural iniquity and you have a formula for violence, as has been shown time and again

To be truthful. Though I'm sorta picking at your post I do actually agree with you and Uki on this. But I just don't think its really something that can be achieved. I mean, at what point do you have to just say **** it and take the path of least resistance? I mean, if you have an infestation of roaches what's the easiest option? You gonna take each and everyone outside (where it'd die anyways as its not meant for that environment) or do you just smoke bomb your house and fix the problem in one fell swoop?

So really what can we do? The world already thinks we're the big evil *******es anyways. What if our precision guided bombs just all of a sudden became a bunch less precision-guided? Because they really can....they could get a whole lot bigger and stronger too (contrary to what many think, we actually hold back on what we unload to "minimize" the collateral, it could be so much worse).

Cuz in the end, its just back to someone having what someone else wants. As you said, the world is ever shrinking. More and more people with less and less resources. Its like 2 twins fighting over the last piece of chicken. At what point do we just really become what the world thinks of us. Because we really haven't opened up the can of whoopass that we have sittin up in the cupboard.

Like I said, not that I disagree. I just wonder whether in the end if there is really any other options.

uki
12-01-2008, 10:33 PM
To be truthful. Though I'm sorta picking at your post I do actually agree with you and Uki on this. But I just don't think its really something that can be achieved. everything is possible.


I mean, at what point do you have to just say **** it and take the path of least resistance? when you finally come to terms with yourself.


I mean, if you have an infestation of roaches what's the easiest option? understanding that roaches have a life purpose also.


You gonna take each and everyone outside (where it'd die anyways as its not meant for that environment) or do you just smoke bomb your house and fix the problem in one fell swoop? no you live and let live.


So really what can we do? The world already thinks we're the big evil *******es anyways. FTW... people make the difference... not assumptions.


What if our precision guided bombs just all of a sudden became a bunch less precision-guided?they already have... do some investigation to the number innocent bystanders that have been killed by them... the american government portrays it as an oops... bad intelligence...


Because they really can....they could get a whole lot bigger and stronger too (contrary to what many think, we actually hold back on what we unload to "minimize" the collateral, it could be so much worse).because of the repurcussions...


Cuz in the end, its just back to someone having what someone else wants. most likely because they lack the willpower to achieve it for themselves.


As you said, the world is ever shrinking. actually the world is falling apart.


More and more people with less and less resources. Its like 2 twins fighting over the last piece of chicken. At what point do we just really become what the world thinks of us. Because we really haven't opened up the can of whoopass that we have sittin up in the cupboard. is it really wise to open a can of whoopass on your fellow man whom you desire to make peace with?


Like I said, not that I disagree. I just wonder whether in the end if there is really any other options.in a freewill universe... all things are possible.

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 06:00 AM
To be truthful. Though I'm sorta picking at your post I do actually agree with you and Uki on this. But I just don't think its really something that can be achieved. I mean, at what point do you have to just say **** it and take the path of least resistance? I mean, if you have an infestation of roaches what's the easiest option? You gonna take each and everyone outside (where it'd die anyways as its not meant for that environment) or do you just smoke bomb your house and fix the problem in one fell swoop?

So really what can we do? The world already thinks we're the big evil *******es anyways. What if our precision guided bombs just all of a sudden became a bunch less precision-guided? Because they really can....they could get a whole lot bigger and stronger too (contrary to what many think, we actually hold back on what we unload to "minimize" the collateral, it could be so much worse).

Cuz in the end, its just back to someone having what someone else wants. As you said, the world is ever shrinking. More and more people with less and less resources. Its like 2 twins fighting over the last piece of chicken. At what point do we just really become what the world thinks of us. Because we really haven't opened up the can of whoopass that we have sittin up in the cupboard.

Like I said, not that I disagree. I just wonder whether in the end if there is really any other options.

If we look at nature, the answer is there. If we look at our own humanity, the answer is also there.

I think some people are a little too detached from reality and fantasize about some kind of alternate world of happy that will exist if only we all became buddhas or some other like thing. lol.

we aren't.

as a human, we can stem the aggression and hatefulness and take on a more matter of fact approach. To me, this is far more valuable than trying to get inside the minds of those who would kill you. Screw them.

While we are killing these scum off around the world, we are also building schools, setting up infrastructure and clean water systems in their countries and training them to secure themselves. It's really easy it seems for some to gloss over this greater work and completely leave it out of the equation in favour of some foot stamping and bleating about egalitarianism and other narrow sighted rot.

We are being egalitarian, we are helping these nations we are at war with.
We are progressing our own culture and we are trying to help understand and progress that cultures that are incapable of doing it themselves.

When's the last time any of you gave a hot cup of coffee, sandwich and 5 bucks to a homeless guy in your town? If you aren't helping at home, then it's likely that it is harder for you to see the big picture and to posture in the ways I'm seeing and reading in this thread in favour of these half baked ideas of comes around goes around and leaving it at that.

How do you propose this wonderful idea of negotiating peace with nihilists?
That I would like to read.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 06:09 AM
nope. Intelligence and the lack thereof.

Someone has Iron palmed the correct.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 06:10 AM
According to Mohammed the Prophet

1) Jews and Muslims are brothers, half brothers from Abraham

2) Women and children should NEVER be harmed, even in times of war

3) captives must be treated like guests in your house, ie never harmed

Extremists often flat out ignore the tenents of the religions they claim to represent, or are simply IGNORANT (ignorance is not stupidity) of these facts. Desperation and often perceptions of "injustice" fuel these sorts of things, no doubt, but there is also no doubt that any way you slice it, these things must be condemed for what they are and terrorism as a concept battled tooth and nail

Well said.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 06:15 AM
As some here know, I was a peacekeeper in Bosnia and I got to see first hand the wonders of extremisim, of racial hatred, of attempted genocide.
In this case the Muslims were on the receiving end.

There is NO justification for harming innocent civilians, ever.
Not during war, not during peace, EVER.
Not for the liberation of a people, not to fight oppression.
You do NOT kill women, children and non-military personnel.
Period.
You don't rape them, you don't torture them, you don't do any harm whatsoever.
OTHER than in self-defence and PRE-EMPTION is NOT self-defense.

Terrorists or freedom fighters, pick your poison, must remember the ONE thing that will make their "revolution" sincere, that will make it justifiable:
The MEANS justify the ENDS, not the other way around.

uki
12-02-2008, 06:29 AM
As some here know, I was a peacekeeper in Bosnia and I got to see first hand the wonders of extremisim, of racial hatred, of attempted genocide.i met a guy in athens, vladimir, who was from serbia somewhere... he and his friend were the only two people that survived their village... the soldiers came thru and gunned everybody down, all of them.


There is NO justification for harming innocent civilians, ever.
Not during war, not during peace, EVER.
Not for the liberation of a people, not to fight oppression.
You do NOT kill women, children and non-military personnel.
Period.
You don't rape them, you don't torture them, you don't do any harm whatsoever.
OTHER than in self-defence and PRE-EMPTION is NOT self-defense.excellent. :)

and david now... :rolleyes:

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 06:38 AM
yes uki?

Care to point out where i say it's justifiable to kill innocents? Is that what you are implying? And if not, what is your point besides that you are ok with these groups of murderers? Which you have indicated in more than this thread. In fact, you've repeatedly stated how it's ok that LEO's or security personell get killed in the line of duty or how terrorist actions are understandable. Care to marry your peace and love stuff with those staements? Because to me, it just reads as if you are disconnected from reality.

My point in this thread is that we must all learn to deal with the facts of life and take the appropriate measures in dealing with them. If killing must be done, then so be it make the appropriate choices in how to do it, minimize the loss of innocents as much as you possibly can and get to the work of scraping the **** from the boots of humanity.

uki
12-02-2008, 06:52 AM
If killing must be done, then so be it make the appropriate choices in how to do it, minimize the loss of innocents as much as you possibly can and get to the work of scraping the **** from the boots of humanity.as long as there are people, there will be shít around that you can step in, so it seems much better to side-step the piles so you won't get any on your feet. i dunno about you, but i hate stepping in poo... don't you? :)

what's the difference between american guided missiles that blow apart schools, homes, people and what not, and the so called terrorists? you seem to have this deluded bias when observing these matters... you see... i see the american war machine and the terrorists to be one and the same, both lack a solid vision of the future and simply resort to primitive means of settling differences. i am not taking anyones side here, i am simply putting it all into perspective.

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 07:14 AM
as long as there are people, there will be shít around that you can step in, so it seems much better to side-step the piles so you won't get any on your feet. i dunno about you, but i hate stepping in poo... don't you?

what's the difference between american guided missiles that blow apart schools, homes, people and what not, and the so called terrorists? you seem to have this deluded bias when observing these matters... you see... i see the american war machine and the terrorists to be one and the same, both lack a solid vision of the future and simply resort to primitive means of settling differences. i am not taking anyones side here, i am simply putting it all into perspective.

do you let the poo pile up until there is no where to side step to?

blowing apart schools is likely unintentional or because some asshat is using innocents as meat shields and a hard decision has to be made on the ground and under duress. I think it's safe to say that you are putting up a straw man with that one though.

Your view is skewed if you think that the military organizations of the USA or Canada or Britain or Australia or of other developed nations that are participating in the current world war are the same as those we are at war with.

Our soldiers are ready to stand and fight. the enemy is a pack of cowards who cannot muster the courage to be real warriors and to stand and instead opt for killing children, women and innocents or using them as shields and fodder to avoid their own cause.

You live in a country where you are afforded freedoms that you would never see in a taliban controlled country or a fundamentalist religious controlled country.

you say "primitive" means of settling but in fact, these are the end results and when we are faced with no alternatives then what?

make it microcosmic to your own being uki.

You understand less than you think you do.

Drake
12-02-2008, 07:16 AM
I say we bring back carpet bombing.

SimonM
12-02-2008, 07:47 AM
they most likely had a home and a loving family too and then a precision guided missile blew them all to pieces...

Were the attackers Afghanis or Palestinians, Iraquis or even Lebanese that might be the case. At this point in time it appears that the balance of probability is that the assailants were Pakistanis. With the exception of Kashmere and the Afghan border there just isn't much in the way of guided missile fire going on. Kashmere is an all-out warzone where Pakistan has, in the past, funded extremist groups to fight a proxy war against Indian interests in the region. Many of these extremists have been captured by India and the demands of the terrorists was the "release of mujahadeen prisoners". My read: they wanted allies taken in Kashmere back.


ah ha... abu gharib or gitmo anyone?


Abu Ghraib and the Guantanamo Bay detention facility both were gross violations of international law. The people who participated in the human rights abuses at both of these facilities should face justice even up to the highest levels of administration.

Mumbai is not part of the USA. If you want to lay these attacks at the doorstep of those abuses than you have to admit that these terrorists have the worst possible aim.



what's it gonna be? You wanna have a pow wow and give em israel?


Yes.



become a muslim?

No, absolutely not.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 08:08 AM
I say we bring back carpet munching.

Fixed that for you.

SimonM
12-02-2008, 08:11 AM
There is NO justification for harming innocent civilians, ever.
Not during war, not during peace, EVER.
Not for the liberation of a people, not to fight oppression.
You do NOT kill women, children and non-military personnel.
Period.
You don't rape them, you don't torture them, you don't do any harm whatsoever.
OTHER than in self-defence and PRE-EMPTION is NOT self-defense.


You have RNC'd the correct.

Drake
12-02-2008, 08:11 AM
But that never left!

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 08:17 AM
Simon-

You support the dissolution of Israel? really?

why? may I ask?

SimonM
12-02-2008, 08:23 AM
Actually I support the two state solution. However I also think that if Israel really was supposed to be reparations for the holocaust it should have been made in Europe rather than the middle east. As usual britain decided that randomly re-drawing the boundaries of other countries wouldn't possibly cause problems in the future...

Like in India, Pakistan, Tibet, Africa (not all Britain's fault), Eastern Europe, etc.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 08:23 AM
But that never left!

True, very true, thank goodness for that !
And remember, nothing is finer than a 69'er !

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 08:34 AM
Actually I support the two state solution. However I also think that if Israel really was supposed to be reparations for the holocaust it should have been made in Europe rather than the middle east. As usual britain decided that randomly re-drawing the boundaries of other countries wouldn't possibly cause problems in the future...

Like in India, Pakistan, Tibet, Africa (not all Britain's fault), Eastern Europe, etc.

I don't think that Israel was a reparation for the holocaust although that event was probably a linchpin in the scheme of it.

I don't think the creation of the geographical area was random either, there were some fairly well laid out guidelines and it is also worth a mention that israel is, where historically judea existed at the time of roman occupation. The traditional home of the Jews and now, more specifically, Israelis.

Palestine was a name given to the region by the romans and strictly to p-o the large populace of jews who lived there. the british maintained the name when they controlled it under their mandate.

They didn't redraw borders of property of other nations to make israel, they gave up what was literally their territory at the time to make way for a new state.

The same was done for Poland and a whole slew of nations following WW1 where there were no nations before, there were now and all of europe was redrawn and territories distributed to ethnicities in the most appropriate fashion at that time.

There is a very rich history concerning the reformation of Israel.

I don't support the two state idea simply because there never was a "state" of palestine and there is no such thing as a palestinian ethnicity. The folks in Gaza and West bank are mostly of syrian, jordanian and egyptian origins.

It can viably be argued that these folks should return to those nations and leave the Israelis alone, or live in peace with them instead of launching terror attacks on them which they have done consistently since 1961 when the first hijackings ever took place and the PLO was founded by terrorists.

If we look at the situation now, Israel is 1% of 1% of the entire region that we know as the middle east. It is ridiculous to ask these folks to just forget that and to not even have that paltry small piece of land and instead give it to the nations that have been mounting attacks unjustly upon them for all this time.

In short, I gotta disagree with you there man. I am not sure you have enough info on the subject. Israel more than deserves to exist and to be dealt with fairly by all the nations around it and to render same unto them.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 08:36 AM
I don't think that Israel was a reparation for the holocaust although that event was probably a linchpin in the scheme of it.

I don't think the creation of the geographical area was random either, there were some fairly well laid out guidelines and it is also worth a mention that israel is, where historically judea existed at the time of roman occupation. The traditional home of the Jews and now, more specifically, Israelis.

Palestine was a name given to the region by the romans and strictly to p-o the large populace of jews who lived there. the british maintained the name when they controlled it under their mandate.

They didn't redraw borders of property of other nations to make israel, they gave up what was literally their territory at the time to make way for a new state.

The same was done for Poland and a whole slew of nations following WW1 where there were no nations before, there were now and all of europe was redrawn and territories distributed to ethnicities in the most appropriate fashion at that time.

There is a very rich history concerning the reformation of Israel.

I don't support the two state idea simply because there never was a "state" of palestine and there is no such thing as a palestinian ethnicity. The folks in Gaza and West bank are mostly of syrian, jordanian and egyptian origins.

It can viably be argued that these folks should return to those nations and leave the Israelis alone, or live in peace with them instead of launching terror attacks on them which they have done consistently since 1961 when the first hijackings ever took place and the PLO was founded by terrorists.

If we look at the situation now, Israel is 1% of 1% of the entire region that we know as the middle east. It is ridiculous to ask these folks to just forget that and to not even have that paltry small piece of land and instead give it to the nations that have been mounting attacks unjustly upon them for all this time.

In short, I gotta disagree with you there man. I am not sure you have enough info on the subject. Israel more than deserves to exist and to be dealt with fairly by all the nations around it and to render same unto them.

Where not "these people" living in that designated area when they were "kicked out" ?

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 09:12 AM
Where not "these people" living in that designated area when they were "kicked out" ?

several arab armies, including syria, egypt and others amassed on the borders of israel almost immediately following it's declaration of independence and the recognition of israel as a state by UN member nations.

they lost in their gambit to destroy israel.

people left to make way for these incoming armies.

in the end, Israel had gained 50% more Territory through this war.

no one was kicked out ever.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 09:35 AM
several arab armies, including syria, egypt and others amassed on the borders of israel almost immediately following it's declaration of independence and the recognition of israel as a state by UN member nations.

they lost in their gambit to destroy israel.

people left to make way for these incoming armies.

in the end, Israel had gained 50% more Territory through this war.

no one was kicked out ever.

Were the Palestinaians in that war?

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 10:02 AM
Were the Palestinaians in that war?

?

are israelis palestinians? It was the british mandate of palestine, but there is no such thnig as a palestinian ethnicity.

I'd reiterate, no one was kicked out.

The ensuing war was won by israeli forces and the arab nations that attacked were repelled.

there are still arab israelis today. They are known as such and not as palestinian. palestinian is a political ruse.

what do you think would happen if a "palestinian" state were created? do you think syria, jordan or egypt would lay claim to it? I mean that would only make sense and would also be quite revelatory of the entire gist.

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 10:34 AM
There were refugees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee


?

are israelis palestinians? It was the british mandate of palestine, but there is no such thnig as a palestinian ethnicity.

I'd reiterate, no one was kicked out.

The ensuing war was won by israeli forces and the arab nations that attacked were repelled.

there are still arab israelis today. They are known as such and not as palestinian. palestinian is a political ruse.

what do you think would happen if a "palestinian" state were created? do you think syria, jordan or egypt would lay claim to it? I mean that would only make sense and would also be quite revelatory of the entire gist.

So they people that call themselves, consider themselves, Palestinian, are what exactly?

SimonM
12-02-2008, 11:22 AM
The fact is that the two state solution is the best compromise between those who don't recognize the legitimacy of Britain to arbitrarily allocate colonized territories into new nations post-WWII and those who don't recognize the legitimacy of the claim of indiginous people to self-determination. And that's why I support it.

Frankly until both the Palestinians and the Israelis both agree to stop being *****s and resolve their differences peacefully that conflict will not leave us. It doesn't matter how vehemently you pump for Israel it won't make the Palestinians less deserving of their own homes back.

Now turning back to central asia....

Because that is where work needs to be done to avoid WW III.

And I am going to concentrate on certain countries:

Afghanistan
Georgia
Pakistan
Turkmenistan

If you want to prevent a global catastrophy these four countries need to be STABLE. Right now none of them are.

Afghanistan: A large country that borders Pakistan, Turkmenistan, and Iran. Afghanistan has been a mess ever since it was turned into a cold-war pawn. A strong case could be made for Afghanistan having been a mess for much longer than that.
Afghanistan has become a focal point of local tensions with cross-border incursion by non-governmental forces from Iran and Pakistan.
Afghanistan is also the pathway of a proposed Turkmenistan / Pakistan pipeline which would have been constructed by UNOCAL (a subsidiary of Chevron, a major US based corporation) which the Taliban were hostile towards. Completion of this pipeline thus makes Afghanistan a prize for the USA even without the possibility of an OBL / Taliban connection.

Georgia: Although small Georgia represents one of the few viable pathways for oil and gas pipelines connecting central asia to European markets without passing through Russia. As Europe desires energy independence from Russia this makes Georgian sovereignty a hot-button issue for Europe thus NATO thus North America. There has already been one minor war between Russia and Georgia over Abkhazia and South Ossetia which threatened to destabilize the supply line of oil and gas across Georgia. The calls for sovereignty in Abkhazia and South Ossetia (or for reassociation with Russia as much of the population of these northern regions are ethnically Russian) may hold simmilar merit to those of Kossovo however the geopolitical divide between NATO powers and Russia make administrations in the west hostile to Russian activity in that sphere. Former vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin said she would go to war with Russia over Georgia. This makes Georgia a particular regional hot-button.

Pakistan: The British re-ordering of India along religious lines proved just about as effective in the case of India/Pakistan as the partitioning of Ireland. The result has been a multi-decade simmering conflict in the region of Kashmere and constant low-level tension. The recent overthrow of Pervez Musharaff and the installation of democratic governments in Pakistan would appear to be a positive sign as would the fact that Asif Ali Zardari has stated a policy of no-first-strike with regards to Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and conflict with India. That being said allegations of Pakistani involvement in the Mumbai attacks and the displeasure of the Pakistani military over the comments of Ali Zardari with regards to nuclear weapons cause Pakistan to remain an unstable state. Furthermore many of the combatants in the Afghani conflict come from the northern Pakistan/Afghan border region or are trained there. Also mujahadeen-like extremist militias in Kashmere may have support from the Pakistani government.

Turkmenistan: Saving the wierdest for last. Turkmenistan has huge reserves of natural gas. As increasing awareness has been raised with regards to oil dependency many people are turning their attention to natural gas as a cleaner burning viable alternative. Turkmenistan is also exceptionally poor and exceptionally repressive. The recently deceased president-for-life of Turkmenistan attempted to create a cult of personality around himself and penned his own holy book to this effect. The Ruhnama (the previously mentioned book) was made the central core of Turkmenistan's education system; even being used as a testing criterion for driver's licenses. The resulting problems in education from basing it around the ravings of a possibly insane and certainly eccentric despot are not hard to forecast. Turkmenistan is officially neutral but has frequently rocky relations with Russia.

Now, of course, the new great game involves most of the other central asian states. These four states simply represent the flash-points where global conflict might originate.

Outside of the central asian states the other major players in the new great game are the USA, the EU, India, Russia and China. Iran also would probably like to involve themselves in regional politics. This political playing field is what is being called the new great game. This references the great game - nineteenth century colonial involvement in central asia. With the quantity of resources, geographical area and fractuous population of this region, along with the significance of the countries in this area as a land-passage (important for pipelines) between the east and the west this area is rife to be the source of conflicts on a global scale.

When wars break out in Africa people decry the loss of life but governments don't hasten to act because Africa is less geographically significant and less rich in resources. Furthermore Africa is not literally surrounded by nuclear powers, all of which have been hostile towards at least one of the others at at least one point in their history.

Now I personally think war is bad.

So I think that promoting stability and, more importantly, PEACE in this region is of prime significance to maintaining a safe and secure world. Further military action in Afghanistan will not do this. Swallowing our pride and bringing the Taliban to the bargaining table, would be a start. Now I don't mean aquiescing to the Taliban or rolling over for them. I just mean accepting that they are players in the Afghanistan / Pakistan section of the great game and accepting that they are not going to be eradicated - and acting based on those assumptions.

Even Karzai, friendly to UNOCAL and implanted as leader of Afghanistan has said he wants the troops out, and the sooner the better. The great powers who surround the playing field of central asia have to start listening to the parties involved.

Other than that, promoting diplomacy between Russia and Georgia, supporting diplomacy between India and Pakistan, addressing the Turkmenistan problem without invasion and and supporting stable governments in the region - including providing economic assistance to stable governments without structural adjustment policies are the best ways to support global peace.

Furthermore the Shanghai Cooperation Organization deserves careful scrutiny as implementation of this organization could make it one of the greatest methods of promoting stability in the region... or could create an eastern-bloc equivalent to NATO and much more effective than the Warsaw pact and could thus become one of the foundations of a new cold-war centered around oil and gas in central asia.

David Jamieson
12-02-2008, 11:23 AM
There were refugees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee



So they people that call themselves, consider themselves, Palestinian, are what exactly?


Check this out.

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2008, 01:02 PM
Check this out.

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

or this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

SoCo KungFu
12-02-2008, 01:20 PM
everything is possible.

Its hard to believe that, as much as I would like to


when you finally come to terms with yourself.

Thats a road I'm trying to head down, I might not be there yet but at least now I've found a map. the problem is at the end of it all, what happens when the terms one sets for oneself are in conflict with anothers?


understanding that roaches have a life purpose also.

True, but what if those purposes are to the detriment of another? Immuno-suppresent retroviruses have a purpose in their own little universe. But human beings can't live in harmony with those organisms.


no you live and let live.

What happens when that simply isn't possible?


FTW... people make the difference... not assumptions.

But the people that can make the differences are making lots of em aren't they?


they already have... do some investigation to the number innocent bystanders that have been killed by them... the american government portrays it as an oops... bad intelligence...

I don't need to investigate. I wasn't always a medic. I spent 5 years working with all the nice little (and big) things that go BOOM. My security clearance lets me know more about them than anything you're gonna get from the news or otherwise. I know what happens when you take a 500lbs bomb and drop it in the middle of a city. As much as I despise the results, really it could be much worse. And while civilian death is never something that should be accepted. What do you do when the people trying to kill you are using hospitals and mosques as fronts to do their dirty work?


because of the repurcussions...

I worry though that at some point the people making the decisions aren't going to someday say to hell with the repercussions and just go ape ****. That's what the enemy is doing. What happens when we get to that point as well?


actually the world is falling apart.

Understatement much?


is it really wise to open a can of whoopass on your fellow man whom you desire to make peace with?

That would only really make a difference if both parties actually wanted peace. I'd rather have a peaceful walk through everything in life. Doesn't mean some ****stick with a gun isn't going to try to rob me at the atm.


in a freewill universe... all things are possible.

It'd be great if I could believe that. All I see though is a bunch of fat kids fightin over a twinky. And its not like if the whole world could have twinkies everyone would stop fightin. That's not gonna happen til no one needs them anymore and little debbie drops off the planet like she needs to.

SimonM
12-02-2008, 01:22 PM
Please allow me to reiterate that there appears to be no connection between the Mumbai terrorists and the Palestinian people; this is a non-issue.

Mr Punch
12-02-2008, 01:56 PM
Except for Uki of course. (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showpost.php?p=898802&postcount=246)

SimonM
12-02-2008, 02:09 PM
Chained to a desk.

Lucas
12-02-2008, 02:11 PM
Chained to a desk.

i feel your pain brother.

edit: on the upside, think about how much you get paid to study things that interest you.

when you are all caught up on work of course.

uki
12-02-2008, 02:35 PM
Its hard to believe that, as much as I would like toas damo always taught us... mind is the path.


the problem is at the end of it all, what happens when the terms one sets for oneself are in conflict with anothers?it matters not what others think, it matters what you think... that is the secret to mind is the path.


True, but what if those purposes are to the detriment of another? Immuno-suppresent retroviruses have a purpose in their own little universe. But human beings can't live in harmony with those organisms.a human can live harmoniously with anything anywhere if his mind is up to par.


What happens when that simply isn't possible?reprogram yourself to believe that everything is possible and then you will begin to see the hope and live your light.


But the people that can make the differences are making lots of em aren't they?yes they are, yet assumptions are not beliefs.


What do you do when the people trying to kill you are using hospitals and mosques as fronts to do their dirty work?they'll have to come out eventually... patience is a virtue... the wolverine is such a cunning animal that it has been known to wait for nearly a month for it's prey that climbed up a tree to fall out or otherwise come down.


I worry though that at some point the people making the decisions aren't going to someday say to hell with the repercussions and just go ape ****. That's what the enemy is doing. What happens when we get to that point as well?karma is a real and functioning phenomenom, those who are still bound by it will suffer the repercussions for their actions and choices they make... it is not our duty to worry for others or ourselves, it is our duty to individually come to terms with the nature of the universe and all it's divine laws and principles, to better ourselves and set an example for others to follow... regardless if it gets us killed. fearlessness to be true to yourself is a lost trait of mankind.


Understatement much?i love understatements... they are the greatest.


That would only really make a difference if both parties actually wanted peace. I'd rather have a peaceful walk through everything in life. Doesn't mean some ****stick with a gun isn't going to try to rob me at the atm. there is no need to be scared of an idiot with a gun robbing you... money is obsolete, i would like to say that it would be much easier to give him the money and if the opportunity then arises, let him have it with everything you got. fear is for the weak... people who use guns to rob and terrorize are weak minded, martial artists are usually strong minded...


It'd be great if I could believe that. All I see though is a bunch of fat kids fightin over a twinky. And its not like if the whole world could have twinkies everyone would stop fightin. That's not gonna happen til no one needs them anymore and little debbie drops off the planet like she needs to.just sit back and grab the popcorn, because the show is going to be out of this world... mark my words. :)

SimonM
12-02-2008, 02:48 PM
i feel your pain brother.

edit: on the upside, think about how much you get paid to study things that interest you.

when you are all caught up on work of course.

And my work comes in waves... so there are sometimes hours of downtime on the clock. ;)

At this rate I'll probably have enough material to formulate a thesis for my major paper before I'm even accepted into a masters program. ;)

David Jamieson
12-03-2008, 06:24 AM
The world is not falling apart.

Keep in mind, that all is mind.

Take a look around, the sun rises, the seasons change, the crops grow and are harvested and we eat, drink and enjoy life when we can.

Battles are faced and lost or won and the world keeps turning.

SimonM
12-03-2008, 07:13 AM
Didn't say that.

I pointed to four countries in one region and said that as global energy demands in a post-peak oil world continue to intensify the stability or instability of those states will be a determinant for regional and global political security.

That's different than saying the sky is falling.

David Jamieson
12-03-2008, 08:50 AM
I wasn't referring to your commentary Simon. :)

SimonM
12-03-2008, 08:55 AM
Fair enough.

Baqualin
12-03-2008, 09:34 AM
as damo always taught us... mind is the path.
it matters not what others think, it matters what you think... that is the secret to mind is the path.
a human can live harmoniously with anything anywhere if his mind is up to par.
reprogram yourself to believe that everything is possible and then you will begin to see the hope and live your light.
yes they are, yet assumptions are not beliefs.
they'll have to come out eventually... patience is a virtue... the wolverine is such a cunning animal that it has been known to wait for nearly a month for it's prey that climbed up a tree to fall out or otherwise come down.
karma is a real and functioning phenomenom, those who are still bound by it will suffer the repercussions for their actions and choices they make... it is not our duty to worry for others or ourselves, it is our duty to individually come to terms with the nature of the universe and all it's divine laws and principles, to better ourselves and set an example for others to follow... regardless if it gets us killed. fearlessness to be true to yourself is a lost trait of mankind.
i love understatements... they are the greatest.
there is no need to be scared of an idiot with a gun robbing you... money is obsolete, i would like to say that it would be much easier to give him the money and if the opportunity then arises, let him have it with everything you got. fear is for the weak... people who use guns to rob and terrorize are weak minded, martial artists are usually strong minded...
just sit back and grab the popcorn, because the show is going to be out of this world... mark my words. :)

Even ants on this planet fight for territory and energy (food)....survival of the species....I wish things were different, but there not...laws of nature

SimonM
12-03-2008, 10:43 AM
Totally called the Kashmir link. (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/12/03/mumbai-train-stn.html)

And confirmation here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7762058.stm)

uki
12-03-2008, 04:15 PM
The world is not falling apart.you are confusing the world with the planet.

David Jamieson
12-03-2008, 05:10 PM
you are confusing the world with the planet.

It's the same thing. It's all one entity floating in space, self contained and we are part of it as much as it is part of us and it is NOT falling apart.

Just because there are greedy people and more of them now than ever before, just because there are violent people and more now than ever before and just because there is poverty and hunger and war doesn't mean it's all falling apart.

all these things have been ever present with humanity for all written history.

These are part and parcel to our existence and unless we completely and utterly change on some physiological and mental level, thy will always be part of what we are.

we can minimize the worst aspects of these traits through self discipline and rule of law and perhaps one or two other methods, but the fact of the matter is that it is unlikely we will ever scrub these traits that define us, from ourselves.

this time in history is no more chaotic than any other, just a different type of chaos at play and we will adapt and learn.

as Ghandi said: "Be the change in the world that you want to see".

That statement is a double edged sword by the way. I know that not everyone wants to be pacifists or vegetarians. but people in general do like to live somewhat peacefully, not everyone, but most and if they acted that way, that's exactly what they would have.

unfortunately, there are a lot of rat *******s in the world

Lucas
12-03-2008, 05:31 PM
our warlike nature will probably be the only thing that will save us when those crazy aliens come to take us over.

our weakness will become our saving grace!

uki
12-03-2008, 05:41 PM
It's the same thing. It's all one entity floating in space, self contained and we are part of it as much as it is part of us and it is NOT falling apart.earth is not as self-contained as you seem to believe and the universe is not devoid intelligent life that surpasses humankind...


Just because there are greedy people and more of them now than ever before, just because there are violent people and more now than ever before and just because there is poverty and hunger and war doesn't mean it's all falling apart.that is not what i mean't by world... world implies a system of operation, which in this case is ceasing to function.


all these things have been ever present with humanity for all written history.genetic traits inherited from our creators...


These are part and parcel to our existence and unless we completely and utterly change on some physiological and mental level, thy will always be part of what we are.fortunately for us we are entering galactic spring, the time for renewal and regrowth... and rain...


we can minimize the worst aspects of these traits through self discipline and rule of law and perhaps one or two other methods, but the fact of the matter is that it is unlikely we will ever scrub these traits that define us, from ourselves.the proper amount of light and information can transform and rebundle your DNA, which then in turn takes you into a new level of operation.


this time in history is no more chaotic than any other, just a different type of chaos at play and we will adapt and learn.actually it's more like the final few spins of the whirlpool that forms as the water goes down a drain or the sands falling in an hourglass... they always speed up at the very end...


as Ghandi said: "Be the change in the world that you want to see".ghandi seems to be one of your warts... as i have repsonded to this before, i am being the change i want to see in the world.


That statement is a double edged sword by the way. I know that not everyone wants to be pacifists or vegetarians. but people in general do like to live somewhat peacefully, not everyone, but most and if they acted that way, that's exactly what they would have.violence stems from lack of peace within oneself...


unfortunately, there are a lot of rat *******s in the worldwhich if this were not the case, we most likely would not even be having this conversation here on a martial arts forum... :)

sanjuro_ronin
12-04-2008, 06:37 AM
Well, these last few posts have motivated me to post this:

SoCo KungFu
12-04-2008, 07:56 AM
Well, these last few posts have motivated me to post this:

I hope that world isn't self contained. She's inherited some fine traits from her creators

bakxierboxer
12-04-2008, 08:08 PM
Well, these last few posts have motivated me to post this:

SR... what do you expect the kinkier folks to do with something like that?

In an all-too-likely vain attempt to compensate for your so-frequent sins of o/e-mission, I feel compelled to offer the following......

uki
12-04-2008, 08:44 PM
SR... what do you expect the kinkier folks to do with something like that?

In an all-too-likely vain attempt to compensate for your so-frequent sins of o/e-mission, I feel compelled to offer the following......now if i was gay, i might say that that would feel pretty nice crawling up my a$$...

GeneChing
12-05-2008, 11:41 AM
hedgehogs & lingerie? On this thread? :rolleyes:
what this thread needs now is some truth serum and tkd.


* DECEMBER 5, 2008
Mumbai Cop Heralded in Film Leads Investigation of Terror Attacks (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122843906285981615.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)
Rakesh Maria May Try Truth Serum on Surviving Gunman; 'You Need Psychology'
By PETER WONACOTT and GEETA ANAND

MUMBAI -- Rakesh Maria, a baggy-eyed 50-year-old cop whose investigative skills have inspired at least one Bollywood movie, is in the spotlight again as lead investigator into last week's terror attacks.

The city's crime branch chief -- his title is Mumbai joint commissioner of police -- is in charge of building the case against the lone suspect captured alive in the gun and grenade assaults that killed 171 people.

He must also try to extract enough information to prevent new strikes on a city rattled and bitter over the government's inability to protect the populace. Greater Mumbai, population 18 million, is home to India's richest men, its hot Bollywood film industry and a thriving criminal underworld. Yet most of the city's poorly paid cops are armed with nothing more than bamboo canes.

"One part of the investigation is to find out who did it," Mr. Maria said in an interview. "But another is to find out how something like this can be prevented."

Mr. Maria declined to discuss details of his investigation. But people familiar with the probe say the Mumbai police are considering an unusual tactic: administering a truth serum to the surviving suspect, Mohammed Ajmal Kasab.

Mr. Kasab is one of 10 terrorists who police say arrived by boat from Pakistan to attack the city's luxury hotels, historic railway station and a local Jewish center. He was captured in a shootout at a police checkpoint. Police and commandos killed the rest of the alleged assailants.

So far in the interrogation, police say, Mr. Kasab has been talking, and his story checks out. But, said Deven Bharti, Mr. Maria's deputy, "We have certain information we are looking to clarify." So police are planning to administer sodium pentothal to put Mr. Kasab in a trance-like state as soon as next week.

The practice, known as "narco analysis" in India, is viewed with skepticism by many Western scientists and opposed by human-rights advocates, who argue that it violates the right against self-incrimination. Even many Indian courts disallow the testimony it produces. But it is not uncommon in high-profile cases here and has been used in other terrorism investigations, including the probe of the 2006 Mumbai train bombings that left 187 dead.

Asked about the prospect of administering the serum on Mr. Kasab, Mr. Maria told reporters Thursday: "If we need to, we'll do it."

The son of a Bollywood producer, Mr. Maria grew up with the Indian cinema. And it has stayed with him through his police work. His investigation of the 1993 Mumbai bombing attacks, which left more than 250 people dead, helped shape the Bollywood movie "Black Friday." In the film, a character by his name roughly interrogates one of the prime suspects.

Ill-Prepared Police

Mr. Maria insists that scenes of smacking around suspects portrayed in books and films -- based on his police work -- aren't accurate or useful. "Just beating and torture doesn't get you answers, or at least answers that will stand up," Mr. Maria said in the interview, waving his hand dismissively. "You need more. You need psychology."

Police guard the Jewish center attacked by gunmen last week as part of the Mumbai terror assaults that left 171 people dead. On Wednesday, police discovered two bombs left behind by the attackers at the city's main rail station.

In the wake of last week's attacks, Mr. Maria has spent his days holed up in his office at the Mumbai police headquarters, a collection of big stone buildings with mildewed balustrades.

Through balmy afternoons, reporters and television cameras await new information on the case. Police clerks shuffle into offices with files or fresh cups of milky tea. Mr. Maria sits behind a big desk, under bright fluorescent lights in bracing air-conditioned comfort. He wears dark slacks, a striped, buttoned-down shirt and speaks British-accented English in even tones.

Still, for all the skilled detective work after the attacks, police and government have come under withering public criticism for not doing enough to keep the city safe. Mumbai police appeared flat-footed when the attacks occurred. In the first hours of last week's machine-gun and grenade attacks, police responded with pistols, bamboo canes and Lee-Enfield rifles -- the type British troops used in World War I.

The subsequent responses haven't reassured the public, either. Metal detectors set up at train stations after the 2006 bombings are mostly abandoned now because they caused such long lines. On Wednesday, police found a bomb at Mumbai's main train station that had been left by the attackers. The next day, police discovered an unexploded hand grenade near a hospital.

Indian police have blamed the 2006 commuter-train attack and the most recent multipronged assault on the Pakistani-based militant outfit, Lashkar-e-Taiba.
'For the Dignity'

Mr. Maria was educated at Mumbai's elite St. Xavier's College. His family and friends reacted in disbelief when he told them he had passed examinations for the Indian Police Service instead of going for more prestigious work. He wanted to join, he says, "for the dignity and discipline of the uniform."

He rose through the ranks, and after the 1993 bombing investigation received a police medal for his service. Mr. Maria's work also has led to the arrest of Bollywood stars, such as Sanjay Dutt. Last year, Mr. Dutt was sentenced to six years in prison for possessing weapons supplied by men convicted in the 1993 Mumbai bombings. The actor has appealed the sentence in a higher court and has been released on bail. Mr. Dutt couldn't be reached for comment.

In his spare time, Mr. Maria practices taekwondo and is president of the martial arts association for Maharashtra state. The mixture of glitz and grit has earned him a place in fiction.

Novelist Vikram Chandra, who hung around with Mr. Maria to research his popular Mumbai gangster epic "Sacred Games," says he came away impressed. "I went a little native," notes Mr. Chandra. "He's a fine officer and a smart guy."

Last week's terror attacks rocked the Mumbai business community. WSJ's Niraj Sheth speaks with various CEOs in India about how they are taking action to ensure Mumbai is both safe and business-friendly.

In investigations, Mr. Maria is known for taking copious notes in handwritten English, which help him pull together disparate bits of information. License plates, criminal histories and the comings and goings of key witnesses form the narrative of a crime, his current and former colleagues say.

Subhash Malhotra, a retired Mumbai police commissioner, recalls dictating a list of questions in one investigation, only to have Mr. Maria immediately reel off answers.

"He gets deep into any case he has," says Mr. Malhotra, who was police commissioner in the late 1990s. "He won't stop at just one or two clues."

Another trademark technique: leading suspects to believe police know much more than they do. After an Indian actress, Maria Susairaj, instituted a missing-persons case concerning a television executive, Mr. Maria says he told her: "You are my No. 1 suspect." Stunned, the 28-year old confessed to helping her sailor boyfriend chop up and dispose of the man, whom the boyfriend allegedly killed in a jealous rage.

Ms. Susairaj's lawyer says a court hearing is set for Dec. 15, and she will plead not guilty to charges of murder, conspiracy and destruction of evidence.

Mr. Bharti, Mr. Maria's deputy, called work on the case "beautiful detection" because the crime team found small but significant contradictions in the suspects' stories.

GeneChing
12-08-2008, 10:29 AM
At least the Indians came forward with Indian martial arts (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48679) and not anti-terrorist yoga. :rolleyes:

China, India kick off joint anti-terror drill (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-12/06/content_7278601.htm)
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2008-12-06 15:35
Comments(0) PrintMail

BELGAUM, India - A week of China-India army joint anti-terrorism training kicked off on Saturday with performances of tai chi and Indian martial arts.

The 'Hand in Hand 2008' training is scheduled to end on December 12.

Qin Xiangyou, who is in charge of Chinese soldiers participating in the sessions, said during opening ceremonies that the joint training was aimed at promoting the two armies' mutual understanding and trust.

He also said it was a way for the armies to develop their friendship, and expand the fields for exchanges and cooperation.

After the ceremony, Chinese and Indian soldiers displayed their weapons.

Moreover, Chinese soldiers performed tai chi and anti-terror shooting skills, while their Indian counterparts put on a display of the country's traditional martial arts.

During the sessions, the soldiers will train in anti-terror shooting and raids, exchange views on anti-terror theories and civilian and judicial issues, and carry out comprehensive drills with the theme of closing, controlling and searching.

China and India conducted their first anti-terror joint training in southwest China's Yunnan province last year.

China and India are the world's biggest developing countries. Peace and friendship between them is not only in the interests of both countries, but also important for bringing peace, stability and prosperity to South Asia, Ouyang Wei, professor of the University of National Defense, said in an exclusive interview with Xinhua on Friday.

SimonM
12-09-2008, 08:08 AM
India is being considered for membership in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The main question at the moment is whether they will agree to membership.

Althought the organization is non-military in nature it is interesting to note that prior to it's formation there were many joint-anti-terrorism training activities conducted beteween China, Russia and Kazakhstan.

And in other news I'll return to this statement:



Turkmenistan: Saving the wierdest for last. Turkmenistan has huge reserves of natural gas. As increasing awareness has been raised with regards to oil dependency many people are turning their attention to natural gas as a cleaner burning viable alternative. Turkmenistan is also exceptionally poor and exceptionally repressive. The recently deceased president-for-life of Turkmenistan attempted to create a cult of personality around himself and penned his own holy book to this effect. The Ruhnama (the previously mentioned book) was made the central core of Turkmenistan's education system; even being used as a testing criterion for driver's licenses. The resulting problems in education from basing it around the ravings of a possibly insane and certainly eccentric despot are not hard to forecast. Turkmenistan is officially neutral but has frequently rocky relations with Russia.


This article supports some of my assertations. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6201669.stm)

It points out that the damage done by the former president-for-life of Turkmenistan particularly to health care and education leave the populace at risk for being targeted by regional extremist groups for recruitment. When a poorly educated populace faces a crisis in health simple solutions are an easy sell.

Solutions like: "This is the fault of the decadent west, go and wage war against their evil and you will be guaranteed a place in Paradise when you die."

GeneChing
12-10-2008, 10:36 AM
I'm remembering how American martial artists reacted to 9/11.


Riding on 26/11 anger, martial arts business booms (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/riding-on-26-11-anger-martial-arts-business-booms/396344/)
Aditya Paul
Posted: Dec 10, 2008 at 2330 hrs IST

Mumbai Even as a debate rages on how best to channel the popular anger following 26/11, several Mumbaikars have decided it’s time they packed some punch in their response to it.

Never mind the practitioners of martial arts like taekwondo would hardly be able to face down an AK-47 bullet, but those who offer such training are reporting a sharp rise in the number of enquiries they are getting.

Smelling business, martial arts instructors have already decided to include lessons on how to behave and when to attempt an escape in a hostage situation as also how to react when someone is firing indiscriminately. Earlier, the students limited themselves to acquiring lessons on self-preservation.

“We have noticed an almost 40% increase in the number of enquiries since last week,” said V Dev Anand, the technical director and president of Jiu-Jitsu International in India. “Following these attacks, we are going to teach our students how to behave in a situation where bullets are flying around,” said Anand. “No amount of training can make you dodge bullets, but through training your instincts and reactions are honed and in such situations, even seconds count,” he added.

Other martial arts are following suit. “Though I have not got too many calls for recruitment, many of my students and their parents have asked me to include training for hostage situations and terrorist attacks so that they can be better prepared,” said Shabir Sheikh, general secretary and technical director of All Maharashtra Taekwon-Do Association.

Another form of martial art that has gained popularity recently is Krav Maga, an Israeli self-defence technique that deals with real-life physical threats and how to neutralise them. “We have been receiving a huge number of enquiries from all over India ever since these attacks took place. We have received several enquiries from three corporates and one five-star hotel to train their staff in handling a hostage crisis,” said Vicky Kapoor, the director and chief instructor of Krav Maga India.

“I have received a lot of calls from urban professionals for training,” said Shareef Bapu, general secretary of the State Association of Karate. “In the past, I have trained Mumbai police constables also. In a situation of the kind that happened at CST, had people known they were to lie down and not run helter-skelter, many fatalities could have been avoided. I am even going to teach people how to administer first-aid so that casualties can be minimised,” added Bapu.

SimonM
12-10-2008, 10:50 AM
News from Pakistan about Lashkar-E-Taiba (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7774912.stm)

Pakistan says they have picked up some of the ringleaders of the terrorist organization believed to be behind the Mumbai attack. Let's hope they give these men clear, transparent, fair trials... Let's also hope that anyone they have arrested is connected strongly enough to the attack to secure convictions. Pakistan has refused to turn over citizens to India for trial so proving openly that they are willing and prepared to at least try the organizers themselves will go a long way towards easing regional tensions.

uki
12-10-2008, 10:52 AM
as a martial artist, it is nearly incomprehensible that i could sit by and do nothing in events such as mumbai and 9-11 if it were in my vicinity... i can tell you one thing, i have a fear of crashing in an airplane sooooooo much(a few bad turbulence experiences), that would annihilate any hijackers on my flight simply because they would make me more jitterish than i already am...

SimonM
12-10-2008, 10:58 AM
Speaking of doing nothing... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7760460.stm)

Indian intelligence services are now claiming to have warned Mumbai sometime before hand... Let's see how this plays out in the long run.

uki
12-10-2008, 11:22 AM
Speaking of doing nothing... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7760460.stm)

Indian intelligence services are now claiming to have warned Mumbai sometime before hand... Let's see how this plays out in the long run.imagine that... american intelligence claims to have warned the american government aswell of the 9-11 scenario... you see, if the intellgence services provide warnings and they are taken seriously, terror attacks may be peoperly stopped, yet if the are ignored and allowed to happen, well now there is a reason to further eradicate the rights of the individual citizens... it's all a plan folks... mark my words.

SimonM
12-10-2008, 01:20 PM
More likely it's the peter principle in action. People rise to their level of incompetence and then become out of their depth... and stay there.

In this case there are at least three places a screw-up could have happened. The intelligence community could have failed to advise the authorities in Mumbai then decided to cover their own a$$e$ by saying "we told you" when they did not.

The city government in Mumbai may have got the information and failed to recognize its significance.

The city government in Mumbai may have got the information, recognized its significance and then not been able to implement any positive action. The article points out that the Indian police force has terribly outmoded equipment and technology - at about a 1970 level.

None of these scenarios depend on a shadowy NWO plot to strip civil liberties on a global scale in order to bring about a global government, technocratic* or otherwise.

*IIRC a lot of the kool-aide drinkers who buy into NWO conspiracies like to blame technocrats. The technocracy movement was in favor of world government as their beliefs were centered around a non-monied energy-based economy that would only work with global participation and a stateless world. The majority of the supporters of the Technocratic movement were high energy scientists, inventors and engineers in the first half of the 20th century. They do not have and have never had significant political clout.

Reverend Tap
12-10-2008, 01:35 PM
imagine that... american intelligence claims to have warned the american government aswell of the 9-11 scenario... you see, if the intellgence services provide warnings and they are taken seriously, terror attacks may be peoperly stopped, yet if the are ignored and allowed to happen, well now there is a reason to further eradicate the rights of the individual citizens... it's all a plan folks... mark my words.

The thing I gotta love about conspiracy theorists (and given my rather unorthodox political views, I run into quite a lot of them) is they all place such an incredible level of faith in the ability of governments not only to adequately control things, and not only to do it well, but to do it secretly. Which is hilarious, since 99.9% of politicians and government appointees aren't even capable of doing their stated job duties without screwing it up all the time. As Simon's post illustrated quite nicely, looking for malicious manipulation and scheming is foolish when simple incompetence is by far the most likely answer. Occam's Razor in action.

SimonM
12-10-2008, 01:56 PM
There is enough absolutely overt bad stuff happening in the world that I find it an unnecessary distraction from the good fight to invent straw dogs and shadow men involved in some secret global conspiracy.

uki
12-10-2008, 05:05 PM
As Simon's post illustrated quite nicely, looking for malicious manipulation and scheming is foolish when simple incompetence is by far the most likely answer. Occam's Razor in action.then on the flipside, from my perception, a simple new world agenda is by far the simplest of scenarios... being incompetent is exactly what is expected of politicians in on it... per se. there are two sides to every coin... whatever the simplest may seem, just flip the coin and you will see the other side of simplicity.

diego
12-10-2008, 05:40 PM
then on the flipside, from my perception, a simple new world agenda is by far the simplest of scenarios... being incompetent is exactly what is expected of politicians in on it... per se. there are two sides to every coin... whatever the simplest may seem, just flip the coin and you will see the other side of simplicity.

but to speak on this new world implies these people are psychic and will prosper...watch star wars, everyone dies in 80 years so what's the point are they that heartless they eat that many babies they just sit there like mr. burns clicking their fingers together while staring at the sky line. **** don't make sence. unless you talking about aliens and tarot card readers like how the nazi's were into balck magic scoured tibet to find relics of their origin in Atlantis... nah I see it all more as nut jobs and al capones.

uki
12-10-2008, 05:47 PM
but to speak on this new world implies these people are psychic and will prosper...you just have to play the game along with them... they think they are psychic and they think they will prosper, but they failed to take into account the differentials, which are much like comets that come out of nowhere and smash the unsuspecting planets into oblivion...

Reverend Tap
12-10-2008, 08:37 PM
then on the flipside, from my perception, a simple new world agenda is by far the simplest of scenarios... being incompetent is exactly what is expected of politicians in on it... per se. there are two sides to every coin... whatever the simplest may seem, just flip the coin and you will see the other side of simplicity.

While the idea of a NWO plot might seem simple on the surface, even a cursory look into the sheer logistics of acquiring, holding, and utilizing the kind of secret power you're talking about quickly spirals into the near-impossible.

It's a much, MUCH simpler explanation that someone just dropped the ball.

uki
12-10-2008, 10:04 PM
While the idea of a NWO plot might seem simple on the surface, even a cursory look into the sheer logistics of acquiring, holding, and utilizing the kind of secret power you're talking about quickly spirals into the near-impossible.

It's a much, MUCH simpler explanation that someone just dropped the ball.anything and everything is possible...

CLFLPstudent
12-10-2008, 10:30 PM
While the idea of a NWO plot might seem simple on the surface, even a cursory look into the sheer logistics of acquiring, holding, and utilizing the kind of secret power you're talking about quickly spirals into the near-impossible.

It's a much, MUCH simpler explanation that someone just dropped the ball.

Yeah, but uki just bought a copy of "Behold, A Pale Horse" and he'd hate to think he wasted 25 bucks on the book when he could've bought some more weed....


-David

Mr Punch
12-10-2008, 11:06 PM
That's funny. :D

Reverend Tap
12-10-2008, 11:55 PM
anything and everything is possible...

Ah, but we're not talking about the possible explanations, are we? We're talking about the probable ones. It's technically possible that it was all orchestrated by one guy sitting online in a basement in the midwest purely out of boredom and "for the lulz." Doesn't mean it's a possibility that needs to be considered.

bakxierboxer
12-11-2008, 03:58 AM
More likely it's the peter principle in action. People rise to their level of incompetence and then become out of their depth... and stay there.


YES!
Dr. Laurence J. Peter!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_J._Peter

My nominee for "Most influential Canadian (Ever!)"!
(even though his seminal works were done after he'd taken a position at USC)
(with his discovery and subsequent publishing re "hierarchiology")
(most people also try to ignore the obvious corollary that "The Peter Principle" is the operating basis for "government" (bureaucracies) everywhere... "at best")

sanjuro_ronin
12-11-2008, 06:45 AM
People drop the ball all the time and the more serious the situation the far easier it is for the ball to be dropped.
Anyone that has ever dealt with any large and complex organization knows that.

SimonM
12-11-2008, 07:58 AM
Yeah, but uki just bought a copy of "Behold, A Pale Horse" and he'd hate to think he wasted 25 bucks on the book when he could've bought some more weed....


-David

I think you have hit the nail on the head there.



(most people also try to ignore the obvious corollary that "The Peter Principle" is the operating basis for "government" (bureaucracies) everywhere...

Your mistake is equating bureaucracy as a collary for government. It's a systemic mistake among corporatists who fail to reason that the multinational corporation is, in fact, the pinnacle of bureaucratic achievement.

uki
12-11-2008, 08:44 AM
funny i have never even heard of the book until now and i've been without weed for nearly a week now... the last book i purchased was genesis revisited, by zecharia stitchin.

David Jamieson
12-11-2008, 08:49 AM
funny i have never even heard of the book until now and i've been without weed for nearly a week now... the last book i purchased was genesis revisited, by zecharia stitchin.

so basically, you're saying you haven't actually read any real books with real and valid and properly sourced information. I mean Sitchin? really? He's a bogus hoaxer and anyone with a bachelors degree in archaeology can tear him down to the looney nonsense he is in about 4 minutes flat. lol.

SimonM
12-11-2008, 08:51 AM
The Nibiru guy?

Seriously?

You actually bought a book by the Nibiru guy?

I thought I had low respect for you before Uki but this is a whole new level of dumb.Here is the wikipedia entry for Sitchin, for those who don't know who this dumb@ss is. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)

SimonM
12-11-2008, 09:45 AM
Some Good News From Pakistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7778074.stm)

Normally i don't double-post. I'm breaking my rule on this because a) I want to bump the thread and b) this is on-topic whereas my previous post was not.

bakxierboxer
12-11-2008, 10:45 AM
(most people also try to ignore the obvious corollary that "The Peter Principle" is the operating basis for "government" (bureaucracies) everywhere...

Your mistake is equating bureaucracy as a collary for government. It's a systemic mistake among corporatists who fail to reason that the multinational corporation is, in fact, the pinnacle of bureaucratic achievement.

OTOH, generally speaking, corporations of most kinds tend to make a profit, whereas gummints are something on the order of infinite sinkholes.....

SimonM
12-11-2008, 10:53 AM
Not a true statement I can provide multiple examples of state-controled industries generating profit.

Also not a relevant statement as the goal of government is not to generate profit but rather to provide safety, stability, guidance and a high quality of life to its citizens.

Also not an on-topic statement as we are discussing the terrorist acts in Mumbai and not the relative merits of regulated vs. deregulated markets.

bakxierboxer
12-11-2008, 11:06 AM
Not a true statement I can provide multiple examples of state-controled industries generating profit.

That sounds unlikely.... IF you're talking about state-RUN industries.
Most of the regulation that I see as "state-control" tends to place the regulated industries at a disadvantage.



Also not a relevant statement as the goal of government is not to generate profit but rather to provide safety, stability, guidance and a high quality of life to its citizens. Also not an on-topic statement as we are discussing the terrorist acts in Mumbai and not the relative merits of regulated vs. deregulated markets.

... and you don't see "The Peter Principle" as being prominent in the failure of the Mumbai gummint to act on the recently revealed intelligence reports that indicated attacks on Mumbai (including the Taj) were imminent?

SimonM
12-11-2008, 11:12 AM
I posited the peter principle as a potential factor originally. I am simply arguing against gross generalizations to "all governments everywhere" which you, with your overtly libertarian bias, attempted to do.

I don't let people try to twist my words.

And check out the LCBO and PDVSA as two examples of state-owned, state-managed, profit generating businesses.

bakxierboxer
12-11-2008, 11:55 AM
I posited the peter principle as a potential factor originally. I am simply arguing against gross generalizations to "all governments everywhere" which you, with your overtly libertarian bias, attempted to do.

:eek: ???????????
That's the first time anyone has ever called me a "libertarian"........



I don't let people try to twist my words.

I'm simply(?) trying to get you to be as specific as possible.



And check out the LCBO and PDVSA as two examples of state-owned, state-managed, profit generating businesses.

LMFAO! (I seldom "do" floors)
Yer very definitely a SOCIALIST. (uppercase)

uki
12-11-2008, 12:07 PM
wikipedia is hardly a source for validated information... i'll take my chances with other folks the world labels fools.

SimonM
12-11-2008, 12:31 PM
:eek: ???????????
LMFAO! (I seldom "do" floors)


Um... what?



Yer very definitely a SOCIALIST. (uppercase)

Yes, I am. Albeit a democratic socialist.

And Uki, which part of the information in the Wikipedia entry I posted do you challenge the validity of?

sanjuro_ronin
12-11-2008, 12:59 PM
wikipedia is hardly a source for validated information... i'll take my chances with other folks the world labels fools.

Actually, Wiki articles that have cited sources are just fine, all one does is confirm the cited sources for further detail.

SimonM
12-11-2008, 01:30 PM
That is why I want to know what part of the article Uki disagrees with. That way I can look up the appropriate references for elaboration and third-party validation. If the article is, in fact, lacking in some respect this can help in improving the quality of it.

Lucas
12-11-2008, 01:39 PM
hehe, this is bad but i remember when wiki came out a buddy and i would insert one random word in odd places in large entries and see how long it took people to catch it.

science topics were the most fun

David Jamieson
12-11-2008, 02:14 PM
hehe, this is bad but i remember when wiki came out a buddy and i would insert one random word in odd places in large entries and see how long it took people to catch it.

science topics were the most fun

um, "history" then "compare". takes about 3 seconds...which is one second less than it takes to discredit uki's reading material. :p

uki
12-11-2008, 05:13 PM
um, "history" then "compare". takes about 3 seconds...which is one second less than it takes to discredit uki's reading material.so just how far does your understanding of history go? lets compare it with mine. :)

David Jamieson
12-12-2008, 07:57 AM
so just how far does your understanding of history go? lets compare it with mine. :)

Try and follow along please.

"history" in my statement is a function associated with wiki coding technology that allows the person on the front end to assess the history of a given document and the editorial changes that have occurred.

What other history would you like to discuss and which cultures? I'd be happy to discuss it, but that would be an entirely new topic.

Fair warning though, if you start with Sitchin or his ilk, I will direct you to sources that will educate in regards to that and it will take you time to actually read and absorb the material.

None of these charlatan blowhard idiots are safe anymore because of the internet and rapid access to information. There has been more change in these areas of bogus occultism and mysticism in the last 10 years than any other point in history and frankly it is a GOOD thing that all the frauds are having it pointed out that they are emperors no more and that they wore no clothes to begin with.

so if you start going on about anunakki love slaves, after I finish laughing, I will ridicule your statements. :) And only because i may have some time to do it. Otherwise, they will be shrugged off summarily for the nonsense they are.

be careful not to keep your mind so open that your brain falls out. :p

SimonM
12-12-2008, 08:02 AM
I'm still waiting to hear from Uki which part of the article I posted was inaccurate. His silence on the issue forces me to assume that the article, as it was on the day I posted it, was factually correct as far as he knows.

CLFLPstudent
12-12-2008, 08:06 AM
Feh - why burden yourselves with logic and facts? :D


-David

SimonM
12-12-2008, 08:19 AM
Fact and logic make for a clear world and resolve ambiguity.

David Jamieson
12-12-2008, 08:43 AM
Normally, it is preferable that a person that is involved with this group can surmise the others in the group are reasonably well educated, somewhat intelligent and with a kungfu persons observational skills..

Lately though...here...not so much. lol

weird. :p

SimonM
12-12-2008, 10:13 AM
More information on the Pakistani actions against Lashkar-e-Taiba (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7778884.stm)

Pakistan has begun detaining members of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa charity which is believed to be a front for Lashkar-e-Taiba.

This is PRECISELY the first in a series of steps that Pakistan should be taking. With the next being fair and transparent trials leading to the conviction of the truly guilty parties within the country. Let's hope that cool heads prevail enough in India for the Indian government to see that too.

bakxierboxer
12-12-2008, 11:27 PM
LMFAO! (I seldom "do" floors)

Um... what?

I left off the oft-seen "ROF".
(very deft reading there)




Yer very definitely a SOCIALIST. (uppercase)

Yes, I am. Albeit a democratic socialist.

You figure that there should be enough to go around for everyone?

Mr Punch
12-12-2008, 11:48 PM
Interesting article. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/12/mumbai-arundhati-roy)

SimonM
12-15-2008, 10:26 AM
Interesting Article on the Taliban problem. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7655422.stm)

However violence only ever begets violence and as long as we are in Afghanistan killing people and destroying crops this problem will continue.

Mr. Punch that was a VERY interesting article. A lot to process, a lot of new avenues to research.

After a quick scan I have to say that Arundhati Roy seems like good people. As for some fact checking of her work... that will have to wait.

Mr Punch
12-15-2008, 07:29 PM
I like this one too. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/15/mumbai-terrorism-india-pakistan)

SimonM
12-16-2008, 09:06 AM
It would appear to me that the Guardian remains one of the best newspapers in the world.

Vajramusti
12-17-2008, 04:28 PM
Joyotpaul Chaudhuri


It can happen again. And what happened was awful. 60 hours of terror in Mumbai beginning on November 26, 2008 which left almost 200 people dead and almost 300 people injured in one of the major metropolitan areas of India. The investigations to date clearly point to the work of a terrorist team well financed and trained in Pakistani territory. The media has given considerable coverage to this tragedy and various investigations and political actions continue in India, the region and in international diplomacy. This is not the first time that terrorists originating in Pakistan have struck in India. Segments of the public in the US can have a short memory. However, some of the elements of the disaster and the background deserve continuing attention and analysis and even remedies since aspects of the butterfly effect is indeed part of contemporary reality. What happens in politics or economics in one part of the world can have effects on other parts of the world. Our current economic crisis has elements of that lesson.

Terrorism is not new though the dark side of modern technology-the weapons, the explosives, and the communication and travel systems has exponentially increased the effects of terrorism. The weapons industry in many countries keep creating and peddling the instruments of terror while diplomats express shock at the results. The terrorists were armed with modern assault weapons, grenades, bombs, and communication and navigation instruments. There are many intensely perceived causes of anger around the world but whether it results in the use of sticks and stones or assault rifles, explosives, planes, timing devices –the instruments of terror do make a difference in the creation of fear and threats to the stability of institutional patterns. 9/11 in the US and the mess in Mumbai the reactions in their own way have and can change the balance between liberty and security in the two great democracies- the U.S. and India. Open societies specially now face real dangers-external and internal. In addition to weaponry and training, terrorism has anarchistic ideological components. This is precisely why existing states face real dangers. Terrorists are not interested in the stability of India, Pakistan, and the US or for that matter Russia.

Like many “isms” or ideologies, anarchism is not one single ideology. Except for varying degrees of opposition to existing state arrangements, anarchism can vary on issues of violence and ethics. Terrorists do depend on ideological formulations and justifications and try to cultivate latent phobias and myths. In addition to the creation of fear and destabilization, terrorist ideologues often have extreme and distorted and fundamentalist “heresies”…they can be Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Sikh or Leninist. Toynbee labeled aspects of Leninism as a Christian heresy. A key aspect of the Mess in Mumbai is cross border terrorism, despite the indirection by the terrorists at one point that they were an indigenous jihadi group in Deccan-South India. To date there has not been any attack on Pakistan by a terrorist group based in India and one hopes that there won’t be one...

Despite the shock and pressure from right wing groups it is not in the long run interest of India to militarily attack the training bases of terrorists in Pakistan. There are other sanctions that can be thought through. And of course unfortunately the relatively open Indian society will change some as a result of increased attention to security and defense. The US is involved militarily with Pakistan and also spends large amounts of funds in shoring up Pakistan. Unfortunately not much of it has been directed towards healthy institution building such as education and grass roots development. The US especially with new leadership in Washington has tools of leverage in Pakistan which it should use
And not continue business as usual. The Iraq affair unfortunately has turned attention away from various forms of Pakistan based terrorism that is dangerous to the region and to the US. The US support for Musharraf has paid little dividend for curbing terrorism. Under successive military regimes in Pakistan the civil state is a relatively weak actor and the single most important institution in Pakistan is the military establishment. The new post-Musharraf parliamentary government of Zardari is a welcome event but it is too weak to really control its own army let alone rogue elements of the army that have helped train many militants. Imams in India have spoken out against the terrorist attack. And some relatively independent minded Pakistanis have spoken out against the terrorists. However, for quite some time extreme fundamentalism has been alive and well in Pakistan and the rhetoric in anti Indian demonstrations and meetings in Islamabad and elsewhere in Pakistan shows very little signs of moderation. Huge outpouring of anti terrorist sentiment in Pakistan undercut terrorist activity- but it appears to be very unlikely.

The US unfortunately put its eggs in the military basket in Pakistan while other institutions of civic virtue and education have withered by neglect. Pacifying rhetoric
from politicians will not be enough. A strong and fundamental rethinking of US policy towards Pakistan has to happen. And in the mean time, defense and security strengthening in India is very likely to develop further.

The mess in Mumbai happened- it can happen again in the current state of what somewhat imprecisely is called a global village though there is very little of the communitarianism that can be found in many villages. The devil remains in the details
and much depends on how much we have learned in the US...

uki
12-17-2008, 05:19 PM
everyone just grab the popcorn... it's just one line of BS after another... power to the people. we as americans have much to learn from the current events in greece... land of the free to do what their told and the home of the brave when they are not urinating in their pants... america is a frigg'in joke.

SimonM
12-18-2008, 09:37 AM
Methinks Uki posted in the wrong thread. Greece has it's own thread.

Mr Punch
12-18-2008, 07:53 PM
Don't think the poor boy ever has a 'right' thread! :D

uki
12-19-2008, 07:01 AM
Don't think the poor boy ever has a 'right' thread!*munching popcorn* :)

SimonM
12-23-2008, 10:42 AM
Since we have been posting stuff about afghanistan in this thread here is the latest. (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/12/23/afghan-report.html)