advice on finding new kwoon

[peace&love]

I am in the process of searching for a new place to study. I went through this process last year and feel like a made a poor decision. Looking back, I placed my schedule on the forefront in regards to making a choice and sacrificed the best instruction available to me. I am also in the process of rethinking my priorities in regards to training and rededicating myself to it by rearranging some things in my schedule so I can get the best instruction possible this go around. I do have a few good options out there. I have found some quality instruction at reasonable rates, but also have the opportunity to study privately with my former sifu who is over three hours away. Any suggestions on what specifically to look for in a kung fu school would be much appreciated. It seems all the advice published out there is in regards to karate and TKD. Kung Fu is a different animal...no pun intended in regards to styles. Also, anyone who has trained long distance with someone, I would also appreciate your input as well. Thanks to all for your time.

[David Jamieson]

First question would be "where are you?"

after that, we look at what's in your proximity and narrow it down to who is the consensually agreed upon best choice as an instructor for you based upon your goals.

You wanna learn to fight and all taht goes with it? You wanna compete? You wanna practice anything besides martial arts in your training? (cultural stuff like lion dance or meditative practice like zen etc).

Finally, you do realize that you can achieve kungfu in any martial art. You have to work at it. Karate or TKD are just as good as anything else when approached with the right mind, attitude and perspicacity. :-)

[fawlung]

While I don't disagree with Mr. Jamieson, I am biased so, Get up to BG and workout with us! :)

[Lucas]

for sure your goals are going to be a the majore deciding factor to where you may want to find yourself training.

[bakxierboxer]

Finally, you do realize that you can achieve kungfu in any martial art. You have to work at it. Karate or TKD are just as good as anything else when approached with the right mind, attitude and perspicacity. :-)

"That depends"....
Just what do you mean by "kungfu"?

[peace&love]

In regards to kung fu, I am referring to a traditional Chinese martial art such as Hung Gar, Wing Chun, etc. I am more interested in the philosophies involved with such systems compared to those found in Japanese or Korean arts for example. I understand you can find the "hard work" in all of these, but CMA is where my interests truly are.

[sean_stonehart]

Then the biggest question to answer so far, is what's you location or what's in your area that's not 3 hours away?

[David Jamieson]

"That depends"....
Just what do you mean by "kungfu"?

I mean in the most literal sense of the term.

As in , skill acquired over time through effort. :)

[TenTigers]

I mean in the most literal sense of the term.

As in , skill acquired over time through effort. :)
why even bring that up? Sure, it's the literal translation, and you can achieve Kung-Fu in anything. A master chef has achieved Kung-Fu.

However, it is an accepted term used both in the west as well as in Hong Kong and China, and not simply a slang term as many like to maintain. That argument usually comes from people like Fred Villari and others, who like to claim knowledge of Chinese Martial Arts and culture, yet have had no real experience.
The point is, it is clearly not what peaceandlove was asking, and I think everyone is aware of this.

[David Jamieson]

why even bring that up? Sure, it's the literal translation, and you can achieve Kung-Fu in anything. A master chef has achieved Kung-Fu.

However, it is an accepted term used both in the west as well as in Hong Kong and China, and not simply a slang term as many like to maintain. That argument usually comes from people like Fred Villari and others, who like to claim knowledge of Chinese Martial Arts and culture, yet have had no real experience.
The point is, it is clearly not what peaceandlove was asking, and I think everyone is aware of this.

I didn't bring it up. :)

[TenTigers]

no, you didn't bring it up, you simply jumped on it.
ok, doesn't matter. Let's not get sidetracked.
The issue is trying to find a solution to peaceandlove's problem of finding a school.
P&L-where are you located? Without this, nobody can make any suggestions.

[David Jamieson]

no, you didn't bring it up, you simply jumped on it.
ok, doesn't matter. Let's not get sidetracked.
The issue is trying to find a solution to peaceandlove's problem of finding a school.
P&L-where are you located? Without this, nobody can make any suggestions.

True nuff, the P&L are key to helping this person find a place to train.

However, for the sake pf posterity, I don't think answering someone's question is "jumping on it" lol. :)

[TenTigers]

However, for the sake pf posterity, I don't think answering someone's question is "jumping on it" lol. :)

"for the sake of posterity?" is that like another way of saying,"Last tag?":p

[peace&love]

Thanks to everyone who is taking time to respond to my thread. I guess I am looking for advice in general in regards to martial arts schools and sifus. I live near a very metropolitan area, and our yellow pages are full of just about everything MA you can think of. I have a wide variety of training halls available to me from karate, kung fu, TKD, and MMA. I'm not so much asking about a specific location or sifu, but just advice on what you look for in a school and what you have found both positive and negative. Many of the standard brochures, etc. on this issue are geared mainly towards children and their parents. I'm hoping my fellow martial arts folks can give me some insight based on their experiences from an adult who is training perspective. Any red flag type stuff would be helpful. Also, I'm am interested in hearing from those who train long distance with a sifu. How does that usually work and have you gotten a lot of benefit from it? If so, how? Once again, thanks to everyone for their time and help. Be well.

[Lucas]

when you visit a school pay attention to its students. look for the more advanced students and watch how they interact with each other and those they are teaching. ask how often the school spars, and what types of sparring they do.

if your goals are geared with fighting in mind. check out what they do for conditioning. how open minded are the people there. do you feel a cultish quality?

keep an eye out on people trying to get you to sign a long contract. not always bad, but it can land you in a tight spot if you later find out the school is kind of a sham.

[TenTigers]

different people like different things. Some prefer a more "Health Club" atmosphere-they just want to go in, do their workout and go home.
Face it, nobody refers to their fellow gym members as their "step-class brothers."

Others, like myself, enjoy a more "private club-like", or family, Old school Mo-Kwoons, where the student is "part of something."
These do not have to be small either. You can have a larger, more successful Mo-Kwoon, where the older brothers take the younger brothers under their wings, and still have a personal approach with the training.

Red Flags come from your gut instinct.
Contracts are NOT a sign that the school is too commercial, simply that they have an overhead. A nicer facility requires rent, heat, electricity, and well-maintained equipment. Contracts are simply tuition billing systems that takes the responsibility out of the Sifu's hands,of chasing down students who don't make timely payments, or try to get something for nothing.

A ranking system, whether it is colored sashes or something else, only means that the teacher has a step-by-step, well thought out curriculum, and gives his students a sense of accomplishment. However, if you see a large amount of students with high rank, and zero skill-then that would be a red flag.

As far as student skill levels are concerned, remember that in any school, there will be a solid core of hard-working, go the extra mile,skilled, talented students. These are the exception. Not everyone is going to be a Bruce Lee. Most are regular people. There will also be those who are completely ungifted, yet enjoy coming to class.

Red flags are also people teaching systems with no history. People who have flamboyant 'lineages' and made-up systems, or mysterious origins. Lineage counts for something-legitimate styles. But lineage will only get you so far. You could be the worst student under the best teacher and have great lineage.There could also be a teacher who while not being a lineage bearer, could very well be a better teacher due to his skill, knowledge, ability to teach, and passion.

Look for a teacher who is still learning, studying,refining their skills, and training. Someone who is content with themselves, no longer seeks a higher mountain. They feel they are that higher mountain. This also means that their knowledge is ot evolving, but decaying.

[Lucas]

Look for a teacher who is still learning, studying,refining their skills, and training. Someone who is content with themselves, no longer seeks a higher mountain. They feel they are that higher mountain. This also means that their knowledge is ot evolving, but decaying.

this is probably one of the if not the most important factor(s) in deciding to learn under someone.

[peace&love]

Thanks Lucas. That is very good advice. I'm grateful. Fortunately, contracts are only popular with the TKD schools where I live. The CMA schools do not do them. I definitely need to watch how the senior students perform. The last kwoon I was at, they did their forms really well, but did not do a great job sparring in regards to attitude and technical skill. Also, I consider conditioning extremely important and will definitely keep an eye out on that. Once again, thanks for the great input. Take care.

[Lucas]

one of my favorite sections of my training came from a school that did contracts. i would do a year contract at a time, and was ok with that because i was comfortable with where i was.

ive also had great experiences at places where you just hand em 50 bucks every month.

like ten tigers said the red flags will pop up in your gut more likely than not. you seem like you know what you are looking for. just take your time. take as many free classes as you can get.

some places will only let you watch, which is ok, but its always nice if you are invited to participate on your first day.

when i look at new schools, i always show up ready to train. it sucks if you go in from work to check it out and are in the wrong clothes when invited to train. :o

[bakxierboxer]

I mean in the most literal sense of the term.


That's pretty much what I thought......

Since the term "kungfu" is a Cantonese colloquialism, trying to understand or categorize it with any "literal translation" can be "misleading".

[Oso]

That's pretty much what I thought......

Since the term "kungfu" is a Cantonese colloquialism, trying to understand or categorize it with any "literal translation" can be "misleading".

i knew that's where you were going...:)

[TenTigers]

nope. As I said before, it is not so much a colloquialism as a conceptual term that encompasses a much broader scope. But it is widely used by Chinese Martial Artists and Martial Scholars. Hardly slang. Sure, directly translated it does not mean Martial Arts, and there are other terms,Mo-Sut, Mo-Sik, Wu-Shu, Wu-Gong, etc But Kung-Fu, Gung-Fu,Gong-Fu, etc is not only acceptable, it is the norm.
It is not just used by Cantonese, but in mainland China, Malaysia,Taiwan, etc.

[bakxierboxer]

i knew that's where you were going...:)

DANGNABBIT! :eek:

Am I getting THAT predictable? :D

[bakxierboxer]

nope. As I said before, it is not so much a colloquialism as a conceptual term that encompasses a much broader scope. But it is widely used by Chinese Martial Artists and Martial Scholars. Hardly slang. Sure, directly translated it does not mean Martial Arts, and there are other terms,Mo-Sut, Mo-Sik, Wu-Shu, Wu-Gong, etc But Kung-Fu, Gung-Fu,Gong-Fu, etc is not only acceptable, it is the norm.
It is not just used by Cantonese, but in mainland China, Malaysia,Taiwan, etc.

I was referring to its (Cantonese) origin.
Apparently, I have "more regard" for origins than some.
Calling someone's skill "kungfu" generally happens when they "admire" that skill.

One Amer-English phrase that is commonly used to express such "admiration" might be:

"HOT Sh1T!"

A literal translation of that phrase would also be "misleading". :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

Most important question: What do you want to get out of your training?

Seems simple enough, but its where most people go wrong... right from the start.

Do you want to learn to truly be able to protect yourself and loved ones realistically? Do you want to connect more to asian culture and the dress and forms and weaponry? Two different things.

If you are serious about the first one, I suggest you start with Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu for several reasons. First, it has a high standard and is pretty available. Finding good instruction shouldn't be hard. Also, the training will get you in shape fast and make your body dense, from the inside. Again, just a result of the training. You'll also get more flexible and used to body contact and flow.... all without having to deal with getting punched. This is a great, healthy martial art.

At a place like that you'll also probably find people dialed into your martial art community who then can guide you to stand up training that suits you.


If you're going the other direction, I suggest you buy some Chinese history books and save your money and time and just join a gym. The number of folks at "kwoons" is large. The percent of those folks that I would consider martial artists based on their offense and defensive abilities is very small. That's why I ask, what do you want?

[David Jamieson]

I was referring to its (Cantonese) origin.
Apparently, I have "more regard" for origins than some.
Calling someone's skill "kungfu" generally happens when they "admire" that skill.

One Amer-English phrase that is commonly used to express such "admiration" might be:

"HOT Sh1T!"

A literal translation of that phrase would also be "misleading". :rolleyes:

you're pulling nose hairs on this one.

many people blanket term all chinese martial arts as kungfu.

most people who have practiced chinese martial arts for a while know that kungfu is a term that doesn't mean martial arts.

The term is widely used outside of Southern China as well and is more or less global now. Anyway, that's not the point at hand.

To the original poster, check out the ezine here and there is an article on the front page called "what is kungfu" and there are also other articles on what to look for in a school. These are general and good advice and pretty much what you'll get here so long as we all don't get caught in the weeds and muck. :)

[fawlung]

Do you want to learn to truly be able to protect yourself and loved ones realistically? Do you want to connect more to asian culture and the dress and forms and weaponry? Two different things.

I don't post much, so I don't know Mr. Pina, but I am just in awe at this statement. Either you have been burned by a school/instructor, have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, or are some kid that thinks he's being funny.

I didn't quote the rest of your comments but they're also about as outlandish as it gets.... protecting yourself and your loved ones... suggesting brazilian jiu-jitsu. While I have respect for all arts, I can't even fathom why you would make that a first suggestion.

Are you suggesting that if some idiot walks up and puts a gun to my child's head, I should be thankful that I've had some brazilian jiu-jitsu training and now I know how to protect my family?

Don't read this wrong people... I have plenty of respect for bjj and all other solid arts... I however, have no respect for Mr. Pina's post.

[eomonroe00]

we all love ray, but i want to point out he is biased, him saying practice brazilian jiu jitsu and not kung fu, is like george bush saying he recommends you join the republican party and not the democratic,

[TenTigers]

yeah, I like Ray.
..but then again, I like amoebic dysentery

[peace&love]

eomonroe00 eomonroe00 is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ny
Posts: 43

with me its more the sifu than the style

at this point in my journey, i know most styles have something, but i would rather work with an amazing sifu in a style i never heard of than work with a mediocre sifu in a style i love
__________________

This post on another thread really made a lot of sense to me. I share this fellow users POV. I think I have been partial to one style and it has really influenced the way I have been looking at things and also has possibly guided me in the wrong direction in the past as well. My first sifu was not only a great teacher, but I great friend as well. It is probably hard or unusual to find that combination. I may be wrong because I do not have that much experience. I have only studied with two sifus. My next sifu was a nice enough guy, but looking back, he was not a very good instructor compared to my first teacher and many teachers I considered studying with at the time. He did not have the experience my first teacher had and I believe that he lost his desire to teach if he ever even had it. I believe you should have a great working relationship with your sifu, but the bottom line is the quality of training.

[Oso]

kinda sounds like you might be overly picky.

a teacher (or coach) is only a guide...you have to do the work...you have to have the insight to apply what you are learning to yourself the way you want to end up utilizing the skills learned...be it manipulating your body through some elaborate forms or succesfully shooting, mounting and submitting (or my preference: making oatmeal of their face ;) )

i think the first thing you mebbe need to figure out is what it is YOU want out of it all...doesn't really sound like you know.

just my thoughts

[Ray Pina]

I didn't quote the rest of your comments but they're also about as outlandish as it gets.... protecting yourself and your loved ones... suggesting brazilian jiu-jitsu. While I have respect for all arts, I can't even fathom why you would make that a first suggestion.

Are you suggesting that if some idiot walks up and puts a gun to my child's head, I should be thankful that I've had some brazilian jiu-jitsu training and now I know how to protect my family?

Don't read this wrong people... I have plenty of respect for bjj and all other solid arts... I however, have no respect for Mr. Pina's post.

I recommended BJJ as a start for someone's REAL training. In three to four months their condition will improve dramatically. They will also get used to contact and flow. THEN, if they want, they could or should expand into some striking game.

As for me and where I base these comments from... I trained Issin-Ryu from age 4 to 12. Then again from 18 to 22. Moved to NY. Trained Wing Chun, Hung Gar and S. Mantis for 4 or 5 years. Then studied internal with Master David Bond Chan for, I don't even know. 5. Maybe 7 years.

I have not lost one of my 10 challenge/Throwdown matches. These were against more traditional karate, TKD, and amatuer MMA stylists. I've lost 3 kick boxing matches and 2 amatuer MMA matches. I have a vale tudo match here next month.

I'm not great. I'm not bad. I have more real experience than most. I have some great footage of me kicking all types of ass in real fights but am bored posting it. It doesn't get my any better. And the only fight that matters is the next one.


As for protecting your family. It starts with making it so no one can get in. And if they do you dispose of them quickly and as neatly as possible with your weapon of choice.

My parting advice would be not to underestimate your typical BJJ player. I come from a long line of striking styles, but punching isn't brain surgery. Most of these guys, by the time they're purple belts, can pick you up, slam you on your head and walk away. Boots to the cranium come naturally. As do head buts and elbows.

Peace to you and a great weekend.

[fawlung]

Thanks for replying Mr. Pina.

I would agree that a typical BJJ player shouldn't be underestimated and I do agree with your assessment of how a student should be after training a while in BJJ. I guess it struck a chord when you mentioned defending a person's family.

Just for my own claritive purposes, when I think about the need to protect my family, I don't think of an unarmed threat.

Getting back to what Peace & Love is looking for. I think there have been some great posts and I really liked one of Ten Tigers posts.

For peace & love to actually be seeking advice and trying to find the best place for him, I think that puts him above the norm and it's great that you're trying to find a good home to train at. Good Luck and you're always to come work out with us if you want.