About the Ving Tsun forms and the necessity of a teacher

[k gledhill]

Nicely written , from P Bayers site..


The importance of the Ving Tsun Forms is often underestimated. They are seen as a collection of techniques and sometimes wrongly put in a hierarchical order which implies that the 2. Form (Chum Kiu) is superior or even better than the 1. Form (Siu Lim Tao) etc..

The forms shouldn’t be seen as seperated fields but rather as parts of a whole. If one part is missing the Ving Tsun of the practitioner would be incomplete. The different forms complement one another and help to overcome certain deficits.
As already mentioned in other articles the 1. form predominantly trains the use of the elbow. The 2. form combines these arm movements with turning of the body, pivoting, kicks and footwork. The wooden-dummy-form trains these techniques in other combinations again whereas it also trains the right distance and synchrony. In addition to that the dummy provides a special feedback of ones force. This kind of feedback cannot be simulated by a partner. Furthermore, you are able to train without any pressure or stress and with your own tempo. Therefore, the dummy-form provides a training which is indispensable.

The 3. form (Biu Jee) deviates in parts from the principles of the other forms. It indicates with it’s techniques that everything goes in combat and frees your mind from thinking only in categories of techniques or sequences.
Besides mastering the long pole as a weapon other features like punching power, driving force and precision are trained with the pole. With the training of the knives you master to handle weapons with blades (knives/swords) and you gain an insight of the seriousness of a fight with blades or weapons and thereby train a certain aggressiveness and will power.
Because of the fact that the principles of the 3. form and the form of the knives differ from the other forms they are taught later in the learning process. Nevertheless, they are essential parts of Ving Tsun.
The several techniques and sequences of movements of the form cannot be interpreted 1:1 into combat situations. The complexity of a fight cannot be covered by rehearsed situations. A combat depends on a lot of different factors and is therefore unpredictable. All forms train a certain behaviour which is advantageous in a combat situation according to the Ving Tsun philosophy.
In the course of my own Ving Tsun training I learned to appreciate the forms. They provide all tools necessary for fighting but without a teacher who can explain them and without guided partner training (from exercises to sparring) you cannot grasp the meaning of the forms.
Therefore, it is necassary to have a good teacher to learn Ving Tsun properly and you have to experience Ving Tsun and feel it while training with this teacher to build structure. The forms help you to correct occurring mistakes and help to improve your techniques if you received the right information.
With this article I like to thank my Ving Tsun teacher, Philipp Bayer, for making Ving Tsun accessible to me and making it a part of my life.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which makes one wonder how other combat systems train, and do so very effectively, without forms at all.
Certainly without prearranged forms.

While I think that forms are crucial form ones OVERALL understanding of any "forms based system", I don't think one can say that that provied all the tools for fighting.
The tools may be "in there", but it takes quite a bit of actual fighting to make them fighting tools and forms are NOT fighting.

To say that fighting is " The complexity of a fight cannot be covered by rehearsed situations. A combat depends on a lot of different factors and is therefore unpredictable." and then to say that fixed and prearranged forms provied all the tools for fighting, doesn't seem to make any sense.

[k gledhill]

All depends on the teahcer/coach showing you ; )

[Liddel]

I like the write up at face value, some good points to be mulled over for many... but i tend to agree with ronins call.


EDIT....then to say that fixed and prearranged forms provied all the tools for fighting, doesn't seem to make any sense.

But your right it does depend on the teacher and more importantly the forms themselves...

For discussion sake... i disagree with the following -


The complexity of a fight cannot be covered by rehearsed situations. A combat depends on a lot of different factors and is therefore unpredictable.

This depends on what you call rehersal situations, sparring IMO is a rehersed situation of confrontation is it not ?... im wondering his train of thought in this regard.... :rolleyes:

There are many ways to train unpredictable situations IMO.

DREW

[couch]

Which makes one wonder how other combat systems train, and do so very effectively, without forms at all.
Certainly without prearranged forms.

While I think that forms are crucial form ones OVERALL understanding of any "forms based system", I don't think one can say that that provied all the tools for fighting.
The tools may be "in there", but it takes quite a bit of actual fighting to make them fighting tools and forms are NOT fighting.

To say that fighting is " The complexity of a fight cannot be covered by rehearsed situations. A combat depends on a lot of different factors and is therefore unpredictable." and then to say that fixed and prearranged forms provied all the tools for fighting, doesn't seem to make any sense.

I dunno...the way I see it is that the forms are the homework. A re-programming guide for your free time. The forms def. don't provide all the tools for FIGHTING, but I think they provide proper body mechanics and many answers to fighting SITUATIONS.

How bout that? :)

[k gledhill]

splitting hairs about 'what this may mean' ...there we go , down the road of ...now let me think :D SLAP !!! dont think, and dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly gloryyyyy...;)

[bakxierboxer]

The tools may be "in there", but it takes quite a bit of actual fighting to make them fighting tools and forms are NOT fighting.
......... to say that fixed and prearranged forms provied all the tools for fighting, doesn't seem to make any sense.

No more so than picking up a really nice hammer automagically makes you a
Master/Journeyman Carpenter.

[bennyvt]

yeh like a good tool box has heaps me tools. You may not have a certain took but he shown you con use a shifter as a hammer, a prying tool etc. But the whole dont think bit, them why post stuff if not to think about it.

[k gledhill]

humor son, humor :D....

tool box, is a 1:1 form mind set.....you are the 'car' not the mechanic, the mechanic part are the forms, the training to build and fix the 'car' BEFORE it goes on the track/road...the car will face what ? while doing 0-200mph sudden braking , acceleration, sudden turns with thoughtless shifts of the feet and hands to navigate...while competing .
rally -x, drag race, all for the event ...pit stop bad to fix something...
If you are being taught to be a mechanic ? you may never realize the fact that you are not a tool wielder ; ) but a complete vehicle . Are you a fighter or a formster ?

running people over or hanging around trying to fix things as they get thrown at the car by the side of the road ..tool in hand, chasing attacking actions with parts rather than attacking them with the whole car...relentlessly.


subtle

the system is a conceptual way of delivering an offensive response as your defense . the techniques allow the attack to be delivered via conceptual guidance....all to allow the perpetuity of attack regardless of attempts to stop it , run from it etc...the science of fighting .


If you where asked to attack someone putting up a defensive response , would you be able to deliver an attacking response other than going lead leg center-punching down their centers like a mule to a carrot ? I mean 'attack them' not wait to do a 'move' in a nice pose.

One of the things Philipp made me realize is that I was concentrating on being the mechanic too, lost in the tool box of applications , rather than building a greater idea. He simply shifted my overview of the forms as a means to an end not a 1:1 idea of this is for this and etc...but your trying to develop intrinsic positions to be able to attack thoughtlessly with nothing but tactical ideas and natural vt reactions...rather than a kwan -sao if they do a double handed attack while doing chi-sao ; ) or over use of hands for lack of the attacking idea, rather trying to use 'moves' that dont work in the reality of a flowing fight with unpredictable events ...more than 1 opponent 2-3 ? weapon/s. Sudden angle shifts of force coming , going , stopping suddenly, .....how to do this using the forms as a help to ingrain certain traits rather than memorize 'tool/responses' in magic bullet moment s : )
I love that saying.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No more so than picking up a really nice hammer automagically makes you a
Master/Journeyman Carpenter.

True, you need cool coveralls and a nice pair of work boots !
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dunno...the way I see it is that the forms are the homework. A re-programming guide for your free time. The forms def. don't provide all the tools for FIGHTING, but I think they provide proper body mechanics and many answers to fighting SITUATIONS.

How bout that? :)

Here is the thing, the body mechanics of combat to NOT relate to the mechnaics of forms.
Remember, in combat you are dealing with a live, resiting and unorthodox opponent, one that may fight with techniques you don't know of until its too late.
One of the many criticizims of many MA, not just WC, is that they don't look like their forms/training, when they fight.
Whereas other systems of combat that don't "train forms", do.

[punchdrunk]

i enjoyed the article a lot. the author knows his stuff. I also agree with couch that the forms are mostly homework. Once they are learned you should do them on your own far more than in a group (use your time wisely). Sanjuro of course the mechanics of a form cannot match the mechanics of combat, one is solo and fairly constant, the other is constantly changing. Thats like realizing someone who fights all the time will beat someone who just does forms only. experience in the feild always beats the theorists right? no argument with that.

[bakxierboxer]

True, you need cool coveralls and a nice pair of work boots !
:D

So true!
It is, after all is (theoretically) said and done, the coverall-less plumbers who seem to take such obscene delite in showing off their butt-cracks.......

[LSWCTN1]

i think (IMO) that this article proves that Mr Bayer makes his students think for themselves and not try to have his hand, but his flavour in their own hand

for example, i know that Mr Gledhill has often advocated learning the knives before the forms - to me that symbolises that he has taken WC and made it is own - and has become the master of it rather than a slave to it.

Something i can only hope to emulate!

[bennyvt]

i hope you joke about learning the knives before the other forms. That is spastic. The knives he done to early stuff up your range, stepping. You have to chase arms etc. The ideas in against what the early training teacher you. Main problem is working with the knive early leads to opening up your centre. Barry have a great article in response to robert chu about this. Ill find it and give links.Why not step in and hit. Yes there are other ways but none that are better. Unles you class needing angles or blocks to allow you in.. I come down to are you doing wslvt or have you just added to what you already did. It seems that not enough learning the basics and just went straight to the advanced stuff. Being a slave is not learning it in the proper sequence them once finished making it work. Mastering is not changing it because you didnt do the hard work to be able to use the basics. My teacher was at the end of the dummy and barry made him start again so he did wslvt not just adding it to the crap he did before

[couch]

i hope you joke about learning the knives before the other forms. That is spastic. The knives he done to early stuff up your range, stepping. You have to chase arms etc. The ideas in against what the early training teacher you. Main problem is working with the knive early leads to opening up your centre. Barry have a great article in response to robert chu about this. Ill find it and give links.Why not step in and hit. Yes there are other ways but none that are better. Unles you class needing angles or blocks to allow you in.. I come down to are you doing wslvt or have you just added to what you already did. It seems that not enough learning the basics and just went straight to the advanced stuff. Being a slave is not learning it in the proper sequence them once finished making it work. Mastering is not changing it because you didnt do the hard work to be able to use the basics. My teacher was at the end of the dummy and barry made him start again so he did wslvt not just adding it to the crap he did before

He's not kidding and Kevin will explain it better. The reason for Bayer/Gledhill teaching the knives first is to get into a 'chasing the man' and 'killing' mind frame for WC.

And just my two cents: who made up all these 'rules' that say we can't teach it the way we want? Why can't I teach someone the last section of the dummy form the first day in class? There are many philosophies on how to teach WC. And for the record, my Sifu DIDN'T 'make me start again' when I went from TWC to Moy Yat WC. He saw right off the bat that I had put in a lot of work and that things just had to be tweaked. He didn't waste my time.

Lastly, it's definitely not the elder's WC anymore...it's MINE. So if you don't want to learn MY Wing Chun from me, go learn THEIR Wing Chun from them. Mine, mine, mine to do with what I please. I was in a cult martial arts club for long enough preaching just as much crap as this and nobody's gonna tell me different now. :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some, if not most, of the FMA teach weapons first and then empty hands.
Not uncommon at all.

[sihing]

Some, if not most, of the FMA teach weapons first and then empty hands.
Not uncommon at all.

Could be because of the environment that one is in that influences that.

As I understand it in the Philippines, they are almost literally born with knives and sticks in their hands. If that is the case, then I could see why one would train with weapons first.

For me, logic says that I can lose a weapon or not have one available at all times (travelling on a plane for e.g.; confined spaces or surprise attacks), but for the majority of the time will have access to my limbs.

I'd rather learn empty hand first, then make them better with the weapons training, ala JKD thinking that the FMA training increases one's attributes to a higher level, rather than literally learning how to stick fight, or knife fight (if there is such a thing).

James

[couch]

Could be because of the environment that one is in that influences that.

As I understand it in the Philippines, they are almost literally born with knives and sticks in their hands. If that is the case, then I could see why one would train with weapons first.

For me, logic says that I can lose a weapon or not have one available at all times (travelling on a plane for e.g.; confined spaces or surprise attacks), but for the majority of the time will have access to my limbs.

I'd rather learn empty hand first, then make them better with the weapons training, ala JKD thinking that the FMA training increases one's attributes to a higher level, rather than literally learning how to stick fight, or knife fight (if there is such a thing).

James

I'm picking up what you're laying down here. One thing to point out (and you already know this, this is for forum's sake) is that all the stick motions are empty hand motions for striking in FMA. So there is no separate thinking needed.

I see the same in the WC. Even though things have gone through a process, the staff and sword form have gone through the WC Engine and has motions and positions that mirror those in the SNT form.

Best,
k

[k gledhill]

i hope you joke about learning the knives before the other forms. That is spastic. The knives he done to early stuff up your range, stepping. You have to chase arms etc. The ideas in against what the early training teacher you. Main problem is working with the knive early leads to opening up your centre. Barry have a great article in response to robert chu about this. Ill find it and give links.Why not step in and hit. Yes there are other ways but none that are better. Unles you class needing angles or blocks to allow you in.. I come down to are you doing wslvt or have you just added to what you already did. It seems that not enough learning the basics and just went straight to the advanced stuff. Being a slave is not learning it in the proper sequence them once finished making it work. Mastering is not changing it because you didnt do the hard work to be able to use the basics. My teacher was at the end of the dummy and barry made him start again so he did wslvt not just adding it to the crap he did before


What I said was to learn the knife thinking...first ;) The footwork is different to bare hand so for this reason it isnt mixed up until later on....but the essential knowledge of fighting anyone with '100% of you against 50% of them' becomes a pattern...further to this thinking is how we achieve it with bare hands in a flowing give and take of a fight, what angle/s , relative to what line of force, using what techniques developed where ? Then we can say start here with basics to achieve that lofty goal , your destination so to speak...allowing the student to hold and play with a knife to explain the distances , tactics , that may present themselves to a sword carrying fighter, with knuckle dusters ...ever seen a sword fight where they punch each other after losing the distance of the sword, or pushing away to regain cutting / striking distances...?

separate ideas or one big one ? why wait to explain the goals to a beginner for 8 years
:D after a while certain traits are ingrained ...so they need to be unleashed early ...your developing a fighter , not a clone. A free thinking fighter , who can move and use the training in a free flow from natural movements and techniques

The whole system is devoted to this thinking, if its shown early enough via knife thinking...face 2 edged weapons head-on ? let them come at you in arcs while you stand like a tree waiting .... good idea or bad idea, when to make your move ? too late ?too soon? , wrong side..."can we do it again ?" :D get the idea...simple really. not spastic.

[sihing]

I'm picking up what you're laying down here. One thing to point out (and you already know this, this is for forum's sake) is that all the stick motions are empty hand motions for striking in FMA. So there is no separate thinking needed.

I see the same in the WC. Even though things have gone through a process, the staff and sword form have gone through the WC Engine and has motions and positions that mirror those in the SNT form.

Best,
k


There's some good footage on Youtube with Dan Inosanto from the early 80's, demoing stick/knife drills then showing the empty hand application as well. I think it is easier to apply the weapons stuff to empty hand than visa versa, simply due to the range and such, the only thing is that for weapons there is slightly more distance involved, with empty hands (ala Ving Tsun), the range is tighter in since there is no threat of getting hurt from a slash or cut/thrust present.

I honestly believe that quality exponents from both training systems (FMA & VT) can aquire the skills of either system quite easily even though they have expertise in just one, as both systems require interdependent movement and coordination from both limbs, sensitivity, and specified body mechanics to acheive usefulness in it's method. For me, the VT has come first, but someday it would be cool to add in the attribute development gained from FMA practice.

James

[sihing]

What I said was to learn the knife thinking...first ;) The footwork is different to bare hand so for this reason it isnt mixed up until later on....but the essential knowledge of fighting anyone with '100% of you against 50% of them' becomes a pattern...further to this thinking is how we achieve it with bare hands in a flowing give and take of a fight, what angle/s , relative to what line of force, using what techniques developed where ? Then we can say start here with basics to achieve that lofty goal , your destination so to speak...allowing the student to hold and play with a knife to explain the distances , tactics , that may present themselves to a sword carrying fighter, with knuckle dusters ...ever seen a sword fight where they punch each other after losing the distance of the sword, or pushing away to regain cutting / striking distances...?

separate ideas or one big one ? why wait to explain the goals to a beginner for 8 years
:D after a while certain traits are ingrained ...so they need to be unleashed early ...your developing a fighter , not a clone. A free thinking fighter , who can move and use the training in a free flow from natural movements and techniques

The whole system is devoted to this thinking, if its shown early enough via knife thinking...face 2 edged weapons head-on ? let them come at you in arcs while you stand like a tree waiting .... good idea or bad idea, when to make your move ? too late ?too soon? , wrong side..."can we do it again ?" :D get the idea...simple really. not spastic.

You can teach it this way of course, as there are a whole bunch of ways to teach the training method. Since I don't know the WSL knife set nor it's training concepts/prinicples, I can't teach it nor tell anyone what it is all about, but I can still teach someone not to stand toe to toe with someone when in combat, and that flanking offers an advantage. To me in my limited experience in WSL method, the flanking/blindside concept and application is everywhere to be seen (maybe due to my experience in TWC, which is blindside fighting nuts), and one cannot apply the training properly without it's presence arising in the application. If someone strikes me with a lead jab and I apply a strike over top (for the sake of understanding, applying fok concept and body mechanics), I will make the flank happen automatically while stepping in to follow up. It's built into the system, but just needs to be explained and shown so that people while training it realize that it is there, as an added positional advantage. Of course, this effect to the opponent is temporary, but in practice we isolate it so that the skills can be realized and learned.

James

[chisauking]

Bah, who needs wing chun......

Just get yourself a pair of these: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH-yMPsA

[couch]

Bah, who needs wing chun......

Just get yourself a pair of these: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH-yMPsA

I wouldn't be doing any fancy Kwan Sau's with those! LOL

[k gledhill]

nice !..one thing we dont do is turn the blades inside the arms ...or x wrists along the centerline , as empty hands or you will be nicknamed 'empty hand' ;)

some do this in bil gee hi/lo and turn the hands inside the ams , preparing to cut yourself before the knives are introduced ...8 years later :rolleyes:...train to stand in front of people and offer moves with LOW % while they chop, chop, slash, stab ...:o distance is your friend :D cut whats closest to you with the nearest weapon.

[k gledhill]

You can teach it this way of course, as there are a whole bunch of ways to teach the training method. Since I don't know the WSL knife set nor it's training concepts/principles, I can't teach it nor tell anyone what it is all about, but I can still teach someone not to stand toe to toe with someone when in combat, and that flanking offers an advantage. To me in my limited experience in WSL method, the flanking/blindside concept and application is everywhere to be seen (maybe due to my experience in TWC, which is blindside fighting nuts), and one cannot apply the training properly without it's presence arising in the application. If someone strikes me with a lead jab and I apply a strike over top (for the sake of understanding, applying fok concept and body mechanics), I will make the flank happen automatically while stepping in to follow up. It's built into the system, but just needs to be explained and shown so that people while training it realize that it is there, as an added positional advantage. Of course, this effect to the opponent is temporary, but in practice we isolate it so that the skills can be realized and learned.

James

granted you dont need to do the forms etc...i dont imply that, the knife tactics and execution are the finger pointing to the beginner to develop for future, not " now we do something completely different for another 8 years ..." .
The flanking is subtle, we can counter a lead jab by simply parrying it with the rear vu by our jaw as we strike 'under' it to the head/neck/ body with the attacking action...if the jab drops to block that we strike from the vu, while retracting the other arm in the attack sequence ....striking over, under etc...in rotation...using the forearms as the perimeter to hold the line with each strike , flanking. Many resort to a 2 handed assault , rather than rotation, because the elbows ideas are diluted . Over fighting 50% , or over-controling an arm with your 2 when a properly trained single arm can do the job of 2, 'alone'...in rotation. Tan strike from the outside edge of the arm striking /flanking, jum inside edge , flanking striking...each offers the other a partner to shut invasion to your own vulnerability while executing this attack idea....all the techniques act to aid the simple attack ...bongs go sideways to open doors , not to jam them...for a strike from the free hand , vu sao..... By keeping the elbows in and striking we offer several actions...the forearms low [ by low elbows] angles and inward elbows offers , not a wedge, but a knife, that stabs and parries along the blade...
you cant stab and parry, in one beat, if you have the knife held at a wide angle to the target [ elbows out ]....by using one arm at a time , you always allow yourself the rear attacking line, regardless of what they do to the lead..if they dont train to strike a striek or attack in the same beat BACK we keep ATTACKING to the end ...combat mind .. ...we train to be ambidextrous so we can flow with a fighter turning side ways to avoid and defend from us...NOT by us going down the center into 2 waiting blades :D

The flanking idea, can be over done by stepping to far outside the line of force too, knife steps ,and leads to arm chasing ,But with knives its okay and what you want, arm cutting from distances, not trading cuts like a pirate movie. bare hands can become 'over controlling' while attempting to deliver a strike from to far away to utilize the elbow/forearm angles...
the flanking can be as subtle as not even touching an incoming arm, but to simply react to the line of force coming, or even avoiding it, to allow it to overturn itself with its own force ..uncontrolled.

[bennyvt]

ok i read he says to teach the knives first. The main contradiction of the knives is they chase the hands. Some thing that you accuse others of doing. I learnt to flank without the knives. Strange that being we are both from the wslvt. Oh and i have been doing wslvt for about ten years now and no i haven't learnt the weapons. Barry says your hands have to be perfect before you do. My problem is that every thing is so abstract. I dont want, if someone does a right hook do this but a simple 'tan sao is to stop anything that comes from outside your arm be that a hook, jab etc'. Not 'tan sao is a way of enabling you to be able to attack". Its just to abstract to make sense until after i know the use of it. And simply the fact that wslvt teaches stepping and double dan chi is enough of a reason to start again and sorry but you had wasted your time. Tweaking it leads to people explaining things not the same as most wslvt but a mixture of both. On barry's wall it said 'if you think your teacher is right forget your old ideas and learn.' I have only done the wslvt system so i tend to think different.

[bennyvt]

about starting again. As barry says ' it doesn't matter what you say or understand it what your body does.' meaning if you did ten years me one thing then you tweaked it to turn it into the wslvt system do you really think your body will do it properly. You need the hours me operatic conditioning to get your body to do it. Your body without the training will do what it always did. Hence why when barry went to wsl he made him stand in stance for hours and had to do the hard yards. Not just fill his head with ideas.even dan chi is different from other school which do you do. I know you can explain using wslvt terms and heads but without the basic training i feel you would not really be doing wslvt but some generic vt with wsl heads throwv in.

[k gledhill]

Of course it matters what you understand... you think standing in a stance with an empty head will fill on its own...all come in a 'flash' :D

i can explain concurrent to your basic training, break off from the step by step to show a complete overlook...you talk in archaic methods...maybe someone was being tested in another way altogether, nothing to do with understanding yet...just resolve to finish it.

[bennyvt]

I shouldnt have said spastic, that sounded a bit harsh.
Standing in stance while doing the moves properly will train your body to do it. I know heaps of people that sound really good, but if your body dont do it then you arent doing VT. VT is about the actions not the understanding. Knowing that I should do something does not mean my body will do it quick enough to take advantage. My point was that whether you step into the centre or the outside (depending on many factors but you can do both) this is all taught before the knives so I dont see why you have to learn them first. I the barry system you have to be able to do what you are up to at a suitable level to be able to learn the next thing. Barry's standards are pretty high. I wish robert chu had a digital copy of the thing barry posted about the knives, it may be on the WSL forum but it explains better then I could why you need prefect hands before you learn the knives. I cant find a copy unless I type iot out and its like three pages. I also went to hk and china and trained with others that had finished the system and I found if your basics are good enough you dont need the rest of it. Only when the person is better do you need to resort to using the more advanced stuff. I mainly found if you step properly not many people can deal with it anyway.
Also I normally write these at work so it has preemptive text so the "head" bit was supposed to be ideas. I try to catch them but some slip through.

[k gledhill]

For some reason you haven't understood what I meant...one doesn't learn the knife form , one has the ideas governing the tactics of facing an equally armed opponent, with knives , carrying the knives yourself, the approach to combat ...% of survival. watch the clip of what sharp knives do.
Why fight 2 when you know how to raise the % in your favor in empty hands AND wepons with simple information....not stand there do this ...6months pass, ok now do this , 2 months pass, get sick mis a class or 5 ...then etc....etc....8years later ...this is a knife...

form follows function, function is guided by understanding...if I explain the ideas t you you have knowledge, not just repeating arm moves alone...if you have an arm move with the understanding of its function , not as 1:1 application , but to a further ability, not so apparent as a 'tool box' full of tools :D. The forms are simply time out to train them over and over in the pursuit of perfection...we use each other to show imperfections, we do forms to isolate and repeat, chi-sao to pressurize with real time , helping each others mistakes. BUT the fighting is another thing ...we dont adopt a chi-sao basic stance before a fight , we DONT use 2 arms extended as chi-sao whe engaging an opponent, we dont try to be feelers of arms and follow then around as they try to find a way in, like a tickling game or a clinch, vt dont clinch :D .
Having the tactical idea planted in your head will make you realize that a LOT of what is being touted as VT is nothing more than a self defense regimen made up by the 'teacher'...using the 'generalizations' of the system to blind the student into further wasted time...thinking the forms are 1:1 , chi-sao the way to do it....
, answering the students questions with 1:1 thinking ... why ? :D dilution by transferring water from glass to glass over the years , as my old sifu would say " there is still some water left in each glass as it is transfered...
If the glass of water is 1/2 full [ or 1/2 empty :D] to start with then you see my point...

Many are working without the whole idea . No idea of what a knife tactic looks like...

Philipp Bayer describes it as WSl did , water fight , simple you stand in front of someone long enough and you will get drops hitting you no matter how good you are ' %' again.
You adopt certain tactics to stay dry for the rest of your life, not chop and change ideas in a place where thinking can get you killed or worse someone following those ideas you gave them gets hurt.

the mind set I speak of is from WSL , not a hybrid... 10 students of 1 teacher can all hear the same words, but cannot put them together in a similar format to another listener ...not blaming anyone, or saying your wrong you cant do that, just to keep listening , keep listening, keep listening...another thing my old sifu said to me ...listen .

Actions do speak louder than words , but the words are as they say, the 'PEN', mightier than the ________?

IOW the ideas, the concepts , the tactics of the whole system openly presented to a beginner may not all be soaked up , but they plant the seed of a mind set , early on . Allowing the student to be thinking for themselves and being able to answer their own questions , even being able to fight their sifu/ teacher...because the teacher has given them the ability at an early stage...not feeding them $ grains of info, on a daily basis, relying on them for the almighty 'word' and a level , or sash with certificate , proving it :D then selling them a dvd series for 6 easy payments of $49.99 showing 100's of MOVES :D never a real fight against an unwilling opponent , just complying students , who drop with air punches , and amazing leg blocks ...ranting better go.
;)

[chusauli]

Beautiful!

[bennyvt]

;)yeh, i get that you mean ideas. I thought off the other guy that you taught the form. And yes teaching a certain mind set is a good thing. Im not quiet sure what the testing bit is about that you metioned before. When barry learnt off WSL he wouldn't accept westerners because he had tried and they were all lazy and wouldnt train hard. Barry had to beg to be allowed and he only let him because he worked so hard then WSL started to teach others again. So I guess you can say that he was tested. But as far as I know all the students of WSL started again. There is so much information from the form, dan chi, chi sao etc that is different and has to be trained properly. I comes down to what ever your body has trained most will come out when pressured.As far as chi sao being like a fight. You seem to level this at me alot and I, my teacher or barry has ever said anything of the kind. In the few fights I have had I dont think I have used anything close to chi sao. I understand chi sao is more to teach you what do do when your hands are stuck in order to be able to attack, not try to chi sao the other person. We say that if you train properly and hard your body will do it when your brain doesnt have time to think. Barry's favourite saying is "If you have to stop and think its too late", hence doesnt matter how much is in your brain it needs to be trained porperly to get your reflexes to do the right thing.Practice doesnt make you prefect, prefect practice does.Oh my school doesnt have books, videos, belts/ sashes or anything like that so not sure where that was going, and as far as someone that hasnt had real fights against real opponents I think you should ask your teacher who barry is before you say stuff like that. I can understand what you are saying, I just find that it would be great and very interesting to and advanced person that is bringing it all togeather but I feel it is a bit abstract for a beginner, this is just me as I like to be able to see the frame work but I also find it helps to have examples and theories. Just a different mind set. I see function as the use for it.Here is a link to the article that I mentioned, this was the only thing I thought was weird as I liked the article that you posted.
http://www.vingtsun.net.au/BLVTMAA%20The%20Knives.htm

[k gledhill]

I'm not writing all directed at you at all...chi-sao etc..just general view point of mine from my personal experience... I know Barrys rep , so not implied either :D again its a wide family of practitioners....
BTW P Bayer started with WSl in a random manner too....he went to the school to see about learning...looked inside and saw everyone playing a game on a table...A guy comes up and asks him what the wants ...and is told to come back later....so he goes to the stairs but they stink of ? so while waiting for the elevator the guy comes back and says ," you still here ?"..then he met WSL and did a few interesting things :D in a quest to find someone who could deal with his TKD kicks [ he was his weight class champion tkd at the time] , just to cut it short, WSL was his teacher from that point on :D...lucky guy.

[chusauli]

Funny how my name popped up here.

I think I may have asked one time, in the days of the old WCML why the WSL WCK knife set had several versions, not the several versions that Yip Man taught.

After all, different people learned from WSL, but the set came from WSL. For example, Nino Bernardo's set is different from Gary Lam's, David Petersen's is different from John DiVirgilio, and Augustine Fong's is also different (he learned one set from Wong Shun Leung). And all of these are different, too... I saw it from David Petersen, and then saw Clive Potter excerpt on youtube, I can see WSL probably went through many incarnations of a knife set, before finally teaching a final form...

Will the real WSL knife set please stand up?

That was my original question which prompted Barry's reply, even though I never contacted Barry directly.

Just my $0.02.

[bennyvt]

Chusauli
I only said your name cause the article that I was refering to had your name on it. I think WSL taught several ways as he was fine tuning his approach. I know that when he went to bejing they said he needed a standard form as a cirricullum so it changed slightly again. But as far as I know it was pretty much the same and when he taught it he was like, "this is how I was taught, I feel you can do this too" so most know the changes as variations of the same theme more then complete changes of the form. This is only my impression from barry talking about it as I dont know it yet.
K gledhill
Sorry, my teacher says I take stuff to personal. Yeh man I totally agree with you about chi sao and fighting. We class chi sao as only a small part that you may have to do to get past defence not something you try to do. If you can just punch thats the best VT there is.I love the old stories about training. Especially how they meet WSL etc. I heard as a westerner you really had to earn the other guys respect. and other people werent all that happy having westerners learn and complete the system under WSL.

[k gledhill]

As for variations :rolleyes: Ive seen both Yip Mans sons perform in the same seminar differences., chi-sa with either and its 2 different ideas..some forget and some make it up, some dont know the whole thing but teach it anyway :D some hold the real deal...keep listening :D I would like to meet Barry sifu one day
Most of my 'fights' are a punch, then watch the 6 ft butt slide ;) ...rare to even require chi-sao, its a developmental tool , not the car. Ive chi-saoed with students from various lines of WSL. I have been able to understand the thinking they share from the root ideas WSL gave to Philipp...All share the common ideas , but for some fundamental changes to developing ...some develop the wrists because they dont change focus on striking distances while developing from dan chi sao basic development in a 2 beat tempo....to 1 beat closer proximity drill....impact training, etc...angling off the line and onto the line of force..striking the strike reaction drills. lat sao chit cheung...yada.etc...