Worst BJJ Coach ever

[MasterKiller]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M8QrppY4Qa8

Holds a choke until his blue belt student goes totally out once

Holds a choke until he almost goes out another time

Holds an inverted heel hook until it "snaps"

[The Willow Sword]

I saw a very controlled training session. You know in Japan the traditional Judo Dojos train you to render a person unconsious and then teach you how to revive that person as well. Its part of the training. Just because you dont like it doesnt qualify this as a bad instructor video. I actually liked this vid and i dont usually like the ground play vids i see. Peace,TWS

[MasterKiller]

I saw a very controlled training session. You know in Japan the traditional Judo Dojos train you to render a person unconsious and then teach you how to revive that person as well. Its part of the training. Just because you dont like it doesnt qualify this as a bad instructor video. I actually liked this vid and i dont usually like the ground play vids i see. Peace,TWS

Main Entry: mo·ron
Pronunciation: \ˈmȯr-ˌän\
Function: noun
Etymology: irregular from Greek mōros foolish, stupid
Date: 1910
1: usually offensive : a mildly mentally retarded person
2: The Willow Sword

[brothernumber9]

But isn't the general idea that when you tap, you are submitting? And that it is implied that the aggressor cease? Why not just hold him in an arm bar til his elbow is torn to shreds? who cares if he taps, he needs to learn the right way right? I can't agree with that. The instructor, although probably skilled, showed complete douchebagery.

[BentMonk]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M8QrppY4Qa8

Holds a choke until his blue belt student goes totally out once

Holds a choke until he almost goes out another time

Holds an inverted heel hook until it "snaps"

I'm all for training hard and with realism, but the heel hook was a bit much. Injuries mean you can't train, so where's the benefit in deliberately injuring your students? The key word here is training. Tapping means you acknowledge that you have been submitted. To go to this extreme in a training session is IMO unnecessary and dangerous. Perhaps the instructor was showing off for the video...I don't know. I had to turn the sound down, I hate that freakin' song. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M8QrppY4Qa8

Holds a choke until his blue belt student goes totally out once

Holds a choke until he almost goes out another time

Holds an inverted heel hook until it "snaps"

Not respecting the tap makes you an a-hole.
That said, maybe that student was in need of a lesson, in that case, just like any other MA, the beat down may have been appropriate.

[Three Harmonies]

****ing DOUCHE BAG!!!

[1bad65]

I would never train with that guy.

[Reverend Tap]

Wow, nothing like having an instructor who treats his students well.

"I submit."
"TOO BAD!"

Jebus.

[The Willow Sword]

You guys LOVE IT when some guy beats the hell out of and chokes out a guy in the cage matches or the freakin UFC. You guys grunt like gorillas when you see it happen. But lo and behold you get all nancyfied and goody two shoes when you see an instructor doing it to a student in a training vid. :rolleyes:

gimme a break. :rolleyes:


MasterKiller:

Word: wuss (wussy)
n. Slang
1. A person regarded as weak or timid and especially as unmanly: Ex. In a sentence "Masterkiller is a wuss."
[Probably blend of wimp and pu$$y1.
wussy adj.
2. Masterkiller
here is a pic of MK as well.

[BentMonk]

I have friends who are amateur MMA fighters. When they are training they respect the tap, they do not continue until the other guy is unconscious or a limb breaks. In an actual match when a fighter taps the match is stopped by the ref. The only time unconsciousness or breakage occurs is by accident or because someone was too stubborn/stupid to tap. Sorry dude, but your argument has been tapped out by the facts. The instructor in the clip is an ass plain and simple.

[MasterKiller]

BM is right on.

Unless this kid was making white belts pass out after they tapped and just had it coming, this is TRAINING, not fighting.

[taai gihk yahn]

You guys LOVE IT when some guy beats the hell out of and chokes out a guy in the cage matches or the freakin UFC. You guys grunt like gorillas when you see it happen. But lo and behold you get all nancyfied and goody two shoes when you see an instructor doing it to a student in a training vid. :rolleyes:

if you can't understand the difference between a student / teacher training relationship and a cage match between two opponents, then maybe you need to start tapping earlier in your sessions in order to prevent further brain damage...

BTW, that guy is playing w/fire - when he chokes the guy out and holds it past the tap, how is so sure that the guy is going to wake up? what a retard; he deserves to get jumped in the parking lot for that betrayal of trust

[Lee Chiang Po]

When you have a studen/instructor relationship, you have a responsibility both ways. The student should respect his teachers always, and should readily show this respect. The student should also know that he is safe with his instructor and know that he will not hurt him in their training. The instructor excepts money from his students, and also has this obligation to see that his students do not get hurt or hurt one another. This is a bladent disregard for the well being of his students. If the student needed to be addressed for misbehavior there are more prudent ways to do so than to injure them. I know for a fact that a sleeper will kill you. And it can also render you a brain damaged idiot. It is something that should never be practiced other than to show the position and technique. The sleeper is different from a choke in that the choke cuts off the air supply, but the sleeper stops the flow of blood to the brain. I can render a person completely unconscious in only 4 seconds. Anything beyond that can cause serious problems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

BM is right on.

Unless this kid was making white belts pass out after they tapped and just had it coming, this is TRAINING, not fighting.

That was my point, I know a few Blue belts that got that treatment, though not as bad as on the clip, when I was training BJJ.
It was rare, but it happened.
Actually, it happened more in TKD and Kyokushin than in BJJ and I don't recall it happening ever in Judo...

[SimonM]

Furthermore the guys in the cage matches stop choking if the other guy taps!

[MasterKiller]

Furthermore the guys in the cage matches stop choking if the other guy taps!

No, the referee usually stops the guy from choking the other guy.

[SimonM]

Fair enough. Point is that chokes rarely go until the other guy passes out.

[Ray Pina]

Video got taken down. But generally, only an insecure teacher would hurt their student. My experience in BJJ has been one of more advanced people toying with me... purposely ****ing up to train me to flow into better positions, giving me submissions.

I had a teacher strike me out of frustration once and it was the end of our relationship. Not because it hurt, scared or bothered me. But because it revealed he didn't have the solution to the problem I was facing.... and couldn't be honest with either of us about it.

I respect a man, and especially a teacher, who can admit when they don't know. It gives much more credence to the other things they have taught me.

[Knifefighter]

It is something that should never be practiced other than to show the position and technique. The sleeper is different from a choke in that the choke cuts off the air supply, but the sleeper stops the flow of blood to the brain. I can render a person completely unconscious in only 4 seconds. Anything beyond that can cause serious problems.

Judo has been applying blood chokes for over 100 years and BJJ has been doing so for almost as long with no adverse consequences.

[SimonM]

Agreed. But not based on a teacher who continues to apply the choke until the student actually passes out.

[David Jamieson]

Judo has been applying blood chokes for over 100 years and BJJ has been doing so for almost as long with no adverse consequences.

ridiculous statement. rendering someone unconcious via stoppage of blood to the brain is dangerous and can in some cases cause death. I'm sure that you, nor anyone else here has the stats on how many people have suffered from brain damage or death from the application of these choke holds.

also, RESPECT THE TAP.

That asshat in the white GI is NOT doing so and ergo is a crappy instructor and should be stripped of his entitlement to teach. Go compete and then get turfed from that venue for not respecting the rules.

[lkfmdc]

ridiculous statement. rendering someone unconcious via stoppage of blood to the brain is dangerous and can in some cases cause death. I'm sure that you, nor anyone else here has the stats on how many people have suffered from brain damage or death from the application of these choke holds.



you are WRONG (again) :rolleyes:

http://www.judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm

[Knifefighter]

ridiculous statement. rendering someone unconcious via stoppage of blood to the brain is dangerous and can in some cases cause death. I'm sure that you, nor anyone else here has the stats on how many people have suffered from brain damage or death from the application of these choke holds.

Actually, I believe Judo organizations keep track of this and have published reports that no one has ever been killed from a choke in a judo competition (looks like lkfmdc beat me to it. I also know firsthand that there has never been a fatal choking incident in a BJJ competition.

That being said, I understand that, obviously, a choke held too long can cause brain damage or death.

[lkfmdc]

or....

http://www.judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

[BentMonk]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I fail to see the practicality of choking someone all the way out during practice. Common sense should tell even the most naive newbie to Judo or BJJ that they do not want to let themselves be caught in a choke. If someone plans on saying, "Well they'll know how it feels to get choked out." are you also saying that instructors should knock out their students as well, just for the experience. Like I said, I'm all for training hard and with a decent amount of realism but come on...:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

2 separate issues

1. Yes, respect the tap, and don't choke students out

but

2. Chokese are NOT life threatening and brain damaging....

[1bad65]

I've been choked out once by an instructor. It was a triangle I thought I was capable of escaping so I did not tap. My instructor told me when I came to that I was only out for a few seconds and he let off the moment I went limp. He also told me to quit sleeping during class. ;)

[David Jamieson]

you are WRONG (again) :rolleyes:

http://www.judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm

dude!? what are you talking about tehre are cases of recorded deaths right there on that page!!! :confused:

[Lucas]

reading those reports what jumps out is

"when properly applied"

i highly doubt humans have always done everything exactly right all the time.

in the history of 'choke holds' im sure 1 guy did it wrong and F'd someone up in the process.

thats along the lines of humanity. i dont have a paper that says so, but it would be pretty much common sense to expect at least 1 bad situation in the history of choking people out.

[Lucas]

also

"No fatalities as a result of shime-waza have been reported"

whats key in that statement?

[SimonM]

2 separate issues

1. Yes, respect the tap, and don't choke students out

but

2. Chokese are NOT life threatening and brain damaging....

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Furthermore you have RND'd the correct to unconsciousness. ;)

[Lucas]

the facts being, in sporting events, both fighters, and the judges, as well as the ref are all properly trained, and aware of what is happening and in control of the situation. this being the reason no fatilities have ever been reported. people are doing things right

its during improper training, real life situations. IE cops/bouncers/streetfights is when the problems and deaths occur.

[Ray Pina]

I don't quite understand the recent change in argument... are we unclear as to whether not respecting the tap is a cowardly and di(ky thing to do, or that a submission taken to its extreme can fu(k someone up. I've been doing BJJ for about two years now. I've already broken my clavicle, tore the $hit out of my chest/upper shoulder and am nursing a double golf ball size ding on my shin stopping a crazed newbies from taking the corner and passing my guard.

Of course we can all hurt each other. I know going in that I can break everyone's arm in class except one guy, my teacher. I tap like I'm playing the drums with him. Sometimes someone gets a little nutty during drills, making things difficult, you slap a couple quick submissions on them during free play to make the point and things settle on their own. That's why I love BJJ so much. The drama takes care of itself.

I hurt someone the other day who didn't tap. He screamed and I let go. He was being aggressive, was a little larger and younger than me so... I did nothing wrong but was embarrassed about it and told him so later. I have more experience than him. I should have been able to finish the kimura with steady pressure. Ride the tap. He was resisting, using strength so I exploded into it. And since he was riding me in half guard with side control for five minutes I was a little eager for pay back.

It happens. Unintentional damage is part of the game. We're all competitive. Intentionally hurting anyone, particularly a training partner, is just week and pathetic and a sign of someone who isn't experienced, mixing it up. Experienced guys understand what a drag an injury is. How it feels to miss out training.

[Knifefighter]

I don't quite understand the recent change in argument... .

It was in response to this dumba$$ post:


It is something that should never be practiced other than to show the position and technique.

[Three Harmonies]

Uhhhh loss of oxygen can cause brain damage, and potentially kill the person. Where the **** do some of you knuckleheads get your information????? Search here on KFO as an off duty cop in NY recently was killed via a mata leo!

Ray -
Dude, if you are that banged up you need to observe and change one, or both, of the following:
1- With whom, and where you are training.
2 - How you are approaching free rolling and your personal training.

Quite simply with good coach(es), good training partners, an absence of ego, and a smidge of common sense you should incur many injuries at all, and avoid most of the serious ones.

Jake

[MasterKiller]

Quite simply with good coach(es), good training partners, an absence of ego, and a smidge of common sense you should incur many injuries at all, and avoid most of the serious ones.

Jake

Yeah, but you know as well as anyone that some injuries just happen. I've had a popped rib (from knee on belly), a popped ankle (did it to myself doing a triangle), torn knee minscus, and numerous dings and cuts over the last 3 years.

[Three Harmonies]

Certainly. Perhaps I spoke to general. Injuries happen, but the list Ray has for just 2 years!?!?! Seems a bit to me. Just trying to be helpful, not a smartass (for once;)).
Jake

[Lucas]

it comes in waves for me

ill have long bouts of little to no injuries, then in a few months i bust/dislocate/tear/jam a few things. but then it is pretty much always been from sparring.

maybe theres a pattern....

[Ray Pina]

Uhhhh loss of oxygen can cause brain damage, and potentially kill the person.
True. But it's not like we're falling through ice and getting trapped under water for 20 minutes. And most of the submissions attack joints or blood flow to the brain. It's quicker. As a surfer I can go some time without air. Not only am I used to it, I have trained myself to stay relaxed to conserve more of it.



Dude, if you are that banged up you need to observe and change one, or both, of the following:
1- With whom, and where you are training.
2 - How you are approaching free rolling and your personal training.

Quite simply with good coach(es), good training partners, an absence of ego, and a smidge of common sense you should incur many injuries at all, and avoid most of the serious ones.


I didn't even know the clavicle was broke until I got the tore chest x-rayed in Sept.
Both happened at Renzos. Both were my fault.

First time I came up last Dec. to train like a mad man 10 days before a fight. I had no training for 10 months having moved down to PR and not in the know yet. That approach was dumb and just asking for an injury. I didn't tap on an Americana, I felt something pop but it didn't hurt until the next day. Four days before my fight. I learned I could fight in pain.

The tore chest happened in Dec. Better trained, a little ****y, I played with my friend who is a 260lbs black belt. He just crushed me in side control and I didn't want to tao from that. I don't think that's a legit submission, is it? But it turned out to be. I tapped and iced my **** and popped pain killers for a week.

My knee is a little banged up right now.... though I think that's from surfing. The body is great. It lets you play hard and repairs itself. Can't say the same for my surfboards and truck.

I respect the take it easy approach to training and you shouldn't be getting hurt often, but I'm training hard. I'm fighting. A decent injury every 12 months or so sounds abot right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You really need to hold onto a choke for a very long time to cause brain damage, I recall reading that its about 10-15 seconds AFTER the loss of conciousness, but don't hold me to that.
The worse result I have ever seen in all my years of training from a choke is the loss of bladder/rectum control and even that is rare, since smart people do their business before class/competition.
Chokes can kill and they can cause brain damage, BUT only if it's done on purpose and there is no supervision.

[David Jamieson]

Guys, I can put reems of stuff in a post about why choking other people is bad. BUt I won't because it would be redundant. I think that it should be obvious to anyone with a lick of sense that it is not a safe activity.

Getting back to the clip.

The guy in the white gi is NOT respecting the tap and is in a training situation. ergo he is not worthy of instructing and probably shouldn't be wearing that coveted belt.

[BentMonk]

I didn't think the point of this thread was to debate rather or not choking someone out could possibly cause injury. I think for most that observation would fall into the category of..."Duh". I think the point of the clip was to show that instructor is an ass hat that is not teaching correctly. I'm thinking MK posted it as a kind of PSA concerning what type of training not to do...but I could be wrong. :D

[MasterKiller]

Chokes can kill and they can cause brain damage, BUT only if it's done on purpose and there is no supervision. I guess it sucks extra bad when your supervisor is the one choking you unconscious, huh?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess it sucks extra bad when your supervisor is the one choking you unconscious, huh?

I don't know, some people pay good money for that, some people enjoy it a lot more than they should.
;)

[lkfmdc]

Guys, I can put reems of stuff in a post about why choking other people is bad. BUt I won't because I would embarass myself again.



There, fixed that for you

Tell us, where again did you get your medical degree? :rolleyes:

Read the articles in question, based upon years of actual competition and practice, peer reviewed and published internationally. Chokes are NOT dangerous. It's unrelated to the guy being an *******, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

I don't know, some people pay good money for that, some people enjoy it a lot more than they should.
;)

You need to quit spending time in that part of town.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There, fixed that for you

Tell us, where again did you get your medical degree? :rolleyes:

Read the articles in question, based upon years of actual competition and practice, peer reviewed and published internationally. Chokes are NOT dangerous. It's unrelated to the guy being an *******, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater :rolleyes:

To say that chokes are NOT dangerous is, well, wrong.
They are.
Under controlled circumstances, they are relatively safe.

[David Jamieson]

There, fixed that for you

Tell us, where again did you get your medical degree? :rolleyes:

Read the articles in question, based upon years of actual competition and practice, peer reviewed and published internationally. Chokes are NOT dangerous. It's unrelated to the guy being an *******, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater :rolleyes:

... and you say i look like a dummy? lol
whatever dave.

go to any doctor and ask them if they think choking someone is dangerous.

ask them if choking someone unconscious is dangerous while you're at it so you can get teh two for one answer.

holy jeebuss, dude, don't let your personal beef with me get in teh way of having a freaking bit of intelligence will ya?

[taai gihk yahn]

nice articles Dave, and I agree with what was written in general;

however, my point is that, when you keep choking someone out after they pass out (indeed, even after they tap), you are now choking someone who is no longer resisting you; meaning that you are now in a situation of doing carte blanche damage without their interfering; and while the research may show that there have been no reported incidences of fatality w/judo chokes, bear in mind that the research shows a trend of non-fatality under a very specific situation: the person being choked stopped resisting and the person doing the choke respected that; now, take away the former, and you have the fatalities seen in law enforcement scenarios: the person didn't stop resisting, the LEO had no choice but to overpower them and was not able to finely grade the amount of force as a result (which is another reason in judo why you are "safer" - the context is set up for a more finely tuned degree of force - meaning that you have a better ability to know how to apply just the right amount to win, but not excessively); now, take away the latter, and now you have a situation where the choker is applying stress to human tissue with no way of knowing just how much damage he is causing: how can one be 100% sure that continuing to choke a non-resisting person won't cause unintended damage? even 99% sure in this case is, to me, unacceptable, because of the potential degree of potential consequences in that 1%;

so, not only is the guy a jerk, he's ignoring one of the parameters that created a situation where chokes become relatively safe, meaning he's into uncharted waters and therefore the research cannot be assumed to be completely valid here, because the context has changed...

[lkfmdc]

go to any doctor and ask them if they think choking someone is dangerous.



The person who wrote the articles is a doctor :rolleyes:

"choking"? Well, if the doctor is a little brighter than you (not a stretch) he might want a clarification. Sticking greasy rags down their throat? yup, dangerous. Submerging their head under water for 10 hours? Yup, dangerous

Judo/Jiu Jitsu chokes? NOPE. Not according to the science and the studies. In fact, if you had even bothered to read the articles you might have noticed at least one suggest that the "pass" is a neurological response and not indicative of actual blood or O being deprived

But you are the expert after all in all things :rolleyes:

[Three Harmonies]

Ross
Context is needed. If I choke you out and let go within X amount of time, then yes. Chokes are the safest method of incapacitation when compared to striking someone.
Regardless of what anyone says, if blood (ie. oxygen) flow is disrupted to the brain for X amount of time brain damage, as well as death can and will occur.
All in the context. But I here what you are saying bro;)
Cheers
Jake

PS Are you in Seattle anytime soon?

[bawang]

with taps its very safe except for the guy in this video lol
to me i think choking some guy after he passes out is like stomping on someone after they are knocked out, both are dangerous

[David Jamieson]

Dave.

You're a bitter man from my view and I feel sorry for you for it.
Hope you can find the happy somewhere dude.

Until then, best to maybe ignore me? Cause we don't get along to well. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys, seriously:

From that article:

ABSTRACT: Shime-waza or the "choke hold," when property applied, should not cause death; therefore, its primary purpose should be to subdue violent suspects. When properly applied, the choke hold causes unconsciousness in 10-20 seconds. No fatalities as a result of shime-waza have been reported in the sport of judo since its inception in 1882...

Note the "properly applied" part.

Also:

Discussion

The 14 fatalities presented were allegedly caused by "choke holds", 13 by law enforcement officers, 1 by a student learning Vo et Vat, a Vietnamese version of judo. In the sport of judo, which started in 1882, no fatalities have been reported. Judoists are taught to apply shime-waza using the principle "maximum efficiency with minimum effort." The maximum pressure is applied directly on the "carotid triangle" without applying the pressure on other parts of e neck, causing unnecessary damage. In all 14 cases, this author has noted evidence of injuries to the structures of the neck from bruises, ecchymosis, hemorrhages to fractures of the cartilage of the neck (Cases 1, 5, 10, 13, and 14), and intervertebral discs (Case 7). Submucosal or mucosal injuries are noted in the larynx in Cases 1, 2, 6, 11, and 13, All these findings indicate that tremendous force was exerted on the necks of the suspects.

If the carotid artery hold is properly applied, unconsciousness occurs in approximately 10 seconds (8-14 seconds). After release, the subject regains consciousness spontaneously in 10-20 seconds. Neck pressure of 250 mm of Hg or 5 kg of rope tension is required to occlude carotid arteries. The amount of pressure to collapse the airway is six times greater...


And:

Conclusion

The effects of carotid artery hold or shimewaza have been studied extensively. However, the use of this hold by law enforcement officers has resulted in deaths. The police department training manuals emphasize that control hold should be used only when necessary to stop a suspect's resistance and not necessarily to cause unconsciousness.

The enforcement officers, although trained, have great difficulty in subduing violent and uncooperative suspects. Some suspects are under the influence of drugs: Case 3, acute heroin-morphine intoxication; Case 4, phencyclidine (PCP); and Case 9, acute ethanol and cocaine intoxication. These suspects may have had greater tolerance for pain, thus making it more difficult to restrain them and to recognize whether the state of unconsciousness is due to drugs rather than to the restraining holds. In other words, these suspects were not cooperative.

In judo, the participants are taught to "choke" properly and in turn have been "choked" and have the ability to realize its effects before unconsciousness ensues. The officials, referee, judges, and coaches can recognize the player when he is "choked out" (becomes unconscious). If enforcement officers are to use the choke holds to subdue violent suspects as a last resort, they should be properly trained and supervised by trained certified judo instructors. Then possibly there will be less misuse or abuse of the techniques of choking which, when used improperly, result in fatalities.

The number of fatalities resulting from the use of choke holds will decrease if the following procedures are followed:

1. Choke holds to be taught by trained and certified instructors:
* to be familiar with the anatomical structures of the neck and where the pressure is to be applied (carotid triangle)
* to know the physiology of choking, that only a small amount of pressure is needed to cause unconsciousness
* to recognize immediately the state of unconsciousness and to release the pressure immediately.
* to learn proper resuscitation methods if unconsciousness is prolonged
* to prevent aspiration of vomitus and not to place the restrained suspect face down. Keep the suspect under constant observation.
2. To revise the police training manuals to emphasize the above procedures. These are the procedures and principles taught by judo instructors which have prevented deaths caused by shime-waza in the sport of judo for over 100 years.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In short:
Chokes are safe when applied properly under controlled circumstances.
They are dangerous when applied improperly and under uncontrolled circumstances.

Debate/discussion over in this regard, ok?

[MasterKiller]

Here is another video of the SAME TEACHER not releasing when someone taps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dESYw4gLl70

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is another video of the SAME TEACHER not releasing when someone taps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dESYw4gLl70

He didn't release the lock, but he released the pressure.
That the same guy?

[Knifefighter]

He didn't release the lock, but he released the pressure.
That the same guy?

I didn't see the first clip, but in the last one, he released both the locks and the pressure each time his opponent tapped. The guy in this clip did absolutely nothing wrong.

[1bad65]

I agree with Knifefighter, the guy did nothing wrong in that video. I've had that done to me, instead of restarting in a neutral position after tapping, you are released but forced to stay in a bad position and resume. It really works your defensive game.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didn't see the first clip, but in the last one, he released both the locks and the pressure each time his opponent tapped. The guy in this clip did absolutely nothing wrong.

Well, he didn't relase the triangle completely, he just sweeped him from it into a mount, if I recall correctly.

[Three Harmonies]

The first triangle he does I count at least 3 seperate times the kid taps and it is not released. Guy is a douche. Period.