Application of this Longfist Technique?

[MasterKiller]

At .55 seconds, the stepping with the hands extended, one in front, one in back.

You see this in a lot of long fist forms, but I've never really heard a sound explanation of the intent of this move.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGyGwy38dM

[brothernumber9]

at 0:55 (fify five)? or 0.55 (0 point 55). Either way, I don't see what you are describing.

[MasterKiller]

at 0:55 (fify five)? or 0.55 (0 point 55). Either way, I don't see what you are describing.

Sorry, at 26 seconds.

[Wong Ying Home]

Do you mean the movement shown when the person in the vid is in pu bu with a crane hand or hooking hand behind and the other hand over the foot, or the movement either side of it i.e just b4 or just after ?

[MasterKiller]

Do you mean the movement shown when the person in the vid is in pu bu with a crane hand or hooking hand behind and the other hand over the foot, or the movement either side of it i.e just b4 or just after ?

The walking after the posture with the hands extended. 27 seconds to 30 seconds.

[Wong Ying Home]

Notice after he rises from the pu bu there is a push with the right hand, then his right leg rises up with a a hooking motion to lift his opponents leg, this can be a throwing action, or if you change the left hook to a grab, after lifting the opponents leg he pulls it back, and tries to withdraw, you follow, by keeping the left hand grabbing, your right hand is either pushing into him or he has grabbed it. the stepping is to follow and enter and then step through his legs to push, there are many variables to apply.

That's about as clear as mud but hope it helps

[Judge Pen]

He's running away from the guy with the guan dao.

[David Jamieson]

Notice after he rises from the pu bu there is a push with the right hand, then his right leg rises up with a a hooking motion to lift his opponents leg, this can be a throwing action, or if you change the left hook to a grab, after lifting the opponents leg he pulls it back, and tries to withdraw, you follow, by keeping the left hand grabbing, your right hand is either pushing into him or he has grabbed it. the stepping is to follow and enter and then step through his legs to push, there are many variables to apply.

That's about as clear as mud but hope it helps

I concur with this interpretation

[Mr Punch]

He's trying to catch up with his sound effects by pushing a little wave of 'Whhooosh'. If he catches up he goes supersonic and it's like a fuel air bomb.

And I thought wing chun was gay... :p :eek: :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Enter on a 45. take the opponents foot out, and turn him with the palm. Now step through his space and he will fall down with almost no effort. The rest of the steps are follow thru to clear you out of the zone when you are done.

[Golden Arms]

Not a fan of much of the Longfist I have seen. That type of application is questionable at best in my book. If it works for others though, I am more than happy to let them have their cake :)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Although I love the forms, I am not too much into the Moslem Long Fist styles myself. I really like the Old school Shaolin Long Fist though. it's uglier, but much more direct in it's function in my opinion.

[MightyB]

He's running away from the guy with the guan dao.

Agree'd. This is by far the best explanation for that technique.

[mickey]

Greetings,

While there are definitely applications that take place before the walking step, I have always seen that move as a means to create space for the next line of techniques in the opposite direction. The form may have originally had a longer practice line; i.e., the walking step concises the form into a smaller space. If you remove that move, you may arrive at what the original form really looked like; again, a very long line of techniques, justifying the term "Long Fist."


mickey

[huolung]

Hello all.

I'm a bit new to this forum and feel privileged to be here with all of you. The technique you speak of is called xing (hsing) bu. It is a basic footwork pattern within several styles categorized as longfist, but is most prominent in meihuazhuang (plum flower boxing). The technique is used primarily for escape and withdrawal according to several sources (to include Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming). The hands are extended out in both directions in order to create a sense of expanded awareness. I am not at all an authority. This is what I've read and have learned in instructional videos. But I hope it helps.

Namaste

[Robert Young]

Hello all.

I'm a bit new to this forum and feel privileged to be here with all of you. The technique you speak of is called xing (hsing) bu. It is a basic footwork pattern within several styles categorized as longfist, but is most prominent in meihuazhuang (plum flower boxing). The technique is used primarily for escape and withdrawal according to several sources (to include Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming). The hands are extended out in both directions in order to create a sense of expanded awareness. I am not at all an authority. This is what I've read and have learned in instructional videos. But I hope it helps.

Namaste

You are actually correct on this one. The technique is called Xing Bu (walking step). The only minor difference is that it is a basic footwork on many styles in northern CMA, NOT ONLY in Longfist. Xing Bu is basically a CMA way of running, either charging or escaping. In this case, it is an escape. The form is called Er Lu (Second routine) Mai Fu (Ambush); one of the main routines in our LongFist forms. The Xing Bu here (27 - 30 second) is to escape from the opponent.

The Xing Bu here should be practiced that practitioner SHOULD look back once or twice before he/she turn back after the running. The purpose is to look at the opponent who is chasing.

[MasterKiller]

You are actually correct on this one. The technique is called Xing Bu (walking step). The only minor difference is that it is a basic footwork on many styles in northern CMA, NOT ONLY in Longfist. Xing Bu is basically a CMA way of running, either charging or escaping. In this case, it is an escape. The form is called Er Lu (Second routine) Mai Fu (Ambush); one of the main routines in our LongFist forms. The Xing Bu here (27 - 30 second) is to escape from the opponent.

The Xing Bu here should be practiced that practitioner SHOULD look back once or twice before he/she turn back after the running. The purpose is to look at the opponent who is chasing.

Running from an opponent requires a form? You could be correct, but I don't like this interpretation because I would never tell someone to retreat with their back to the opponent UNLESS it was a full-out sprint.

[Robert Young]

Running from an opponent requires a form? You could be correct, but I don't like this interpretation because I would never tell someone to retreat with their back to the opponent UNLESS it was a full-out sprint.

That is why the next move is to turn back with a left hand grab and right hand fist. The form is called Ambush. You set up a retreat and turn back to attack. This is the way it was designed and it is the way we were trained.

The key of this is to train Xing Bu. The "step" should be trained to run low and big and fast. You can actually ran very fast with it and still maintain stability.

[YouKnowWho]

Running from an opponent requires a form?
If you want to train how to kick sand onto your opponent's face when you run like hell then you may need a form (or a drill) to train that ability and accuracy. Unfortunately, it will be useless on any paved road.

In one LF form there is a move that you use your palm to strike at your opponent's groin. Every time I did that, my opponent always punched at my face before I could reach his nuts. I finally understood that move was suppose to be used as "grab a handful of sand from the ground and throw at my opponent's face". After that day, no abstraction in any CMA style could bother me and my imagination had been fully developed since then.

In SC there is a move that you twist both arms counter-clockwise and then clockwise. My teacher told me it was a throwing skill that you twist your opponent in one direction and then borrow his resistance to twist him to the opposite direction. I believe that move was originally used by ancient Chinese to handle the car steering wheel in order to dodge the incoming traffic.


I am not too much into the Moslem Long Fist styles myself. I really like the Old school Shaolin Long Fist though.
What's Shaolin Long Fist? Is it something besides Cha, Wha, Hong, Tang, and Pao? Shaolin does have Da Hong Chuan and Shao Hong Chuan but I believe it came from the Moslem LF Hong family.

I believe All Shaolin style MA came from outside of the temple in the 1st place. If you killed someone, you shaved your head and hided in Shaolin temple. When you got bored, you trained your art and some other monk saw you and wanted to learned from you, your art started to spread in that temple. 100 years after that, your art became part of the the Shaolin style.

[Oso]

If you want to train how to kick sand onto your opponent's face when you run like hell then you may need a form (or a drill) to train that ability and accuracy. Unfortunately, it will be useless on any paved road.

odd or not that has been a consistent theme in every style of kung fu I've trained...from the hung gar to the very mixed up style I did for 13 years to my current.

but my favorite technique for throwing dirt/leaves/sand is from the venerable tome "Skills of the Vagabonds"...the form at the back of the book... ;) :D

but, seriously...and I was given a hard time about this a couple of years back here on the forum...but at the 'mixed up style' I did for 13 years there was a little saying:

If he can't see, he can't fight you
If he can't walk, he can't fight you
If he can't breathe, he can't fight you

maybe kinda silly sounding but all those things are true. at the root of all the 'fight' training we did, your technique should be aiming to destroy one of those things in your opponent...if not all three (not necessarily at once, of course)

the issue is how you decide to try and affect your oponents vision, breath or balance and whether you train realistically enough against resistive opponents enough to be able to truly affect your opponent in one of those ways.

[YouKnowWho]

If he can't see, he can't fight you
If he can't walk, he can't fight you
If he can't breathe, he can't fight you
If he can't put weigh on his front leg, he can't punch you. If you are good enough to step on your opponent's knee joint, you don't have to worry about his punches. Someone called this "dirty fight". As far as I know there is no such thing as "clean fight" in CMA. A Karate guy always carried a can of red pepper. He would open that can and threw the red pepper powder at his opponent's face before he jumped in. IMO, that's not "clean fight" either. A CMA guy loved to slide his finger tips across his opponent's eyes before jumping in. It was an excellent way to start a fight but that's not "clean fight" either. There was a challenge fight. A challenger walked to a guy and asked, "May I spar with you. Sir?" The guy been challenged said, "OK" and jump in and almost beat the that challenger to death. That was not a "clean fight" either.

[Reverend Tap]

If he can't put weigh on his front leg, he can't punch you. If you are good enough to step on your opponent's knee joint, you don't have to worry about his punches. Someone called this "dirty fight". As far as I know there is no such thing as "clean fight" in CMA. A Karate guy always carried a can of red pepper. He would open that can and threw at his opponent's face before he jumped in. IMO, that's not "clean fight" either. A CMA guy loved to slide his finger tips across his opponent's eyes before jumping in. It was an excellent way to start a fight IMO.

"Clean" and "dirty" fighting implies rules.

Anything with rules is a match, not a fight.

Of course, one of the best advantages possible is to be in a fight that your opponent thinks is a match. :D

[huolung]

You are actually correct on this one. The technique is called Xing Bu (walking step). The only minor difference is that it is a basic footwork on many styles in northern CMA, NOT ONLY in Longfist. Xing Bu is basically a CMA way of running, either charging or escaping. In this case, it is an escape. The form is called Er Lu (Second routine) Mai Fu (Ambush); one of the main routines in our LongFist forms. The Xing Bu here (27 - 30 second) is to escape from the opponent.

The Xing Bu here should be practiced that practitioner SHOULD look back once or twice before he/she turn back after the running. The purpose is to look at the opponent who is chasing.

Okay! It's good that there is someone to back me up on this. I do however apologize for having mis-communicated. When I used the term Longfist what I meant to say was most Northern Styles commonly categorized or referred to as longfist.

As far as application of the technique, and I know there was a bit of criticism over the fact that it is practiced within the forms, Dr. Yang states with emphasis the importance of walking as opposed to running and walking on the outside edges of the feet to keep from unnecessary jarring of the brain which could (according to him) lead to brain damage. That take notwithstanding, I do see the majority of practitioners running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
Running from an opponent requires a form? You could be correct, but I don't like this interpretation because I would never tell someone to retreat with their back to the opponent UNLESS it was a full-out sprint.

As I understand it, the fact that xing bu is executed from a low position offers an outstanding rooting option while allowing for a lengthy stride. And as Robert said earlier, the Longfist player should be looking back at his opponent. I believe I've mentioned the intent to develop multi-directional awareness so to speak. Also turning the back in this manner protects the center gate or doors (i.e. solar plexus, groin, etc...)


Namaste

[Judge Pen]

If he can't see, he can't fight you
If he can't walk, he can't fight you
If he can't breathe, he can't fight you


I thought this was from one of the bad karate kid sequels.

Big suprise, but I was taught "alternate" applications for certain techniques that included either throwing sand or other objects.

[Oso]

I thought this was from one of the bad karate kid sequels.

Big suprise, but I was taught "alternate" applications for certain techniques that included either throwing sand or other objects.

lol, heh, could be knowing my old school, don't remember seeing it from KKII and I didn't see anything after that.

[Robert Young]

As far as application of the technique, and I know there was a bit of criticism over the fact that it is practiced within the forms, Dr. Yang states with emphasis the importance of walking as opposed to running and walking on the outside edges of the feet to keep from unnecessary jarring of the brain which could (according to him) lead to brain damage. That take notwithstanding, I do see the majority of practitioners running.


Although Xing Bu in Chinese means walking step, it is actually a CMA way of running. Training Xing Bu starts with walking. After students develope a good posture or good way of walking, they should train for speed, which become running. All the LF forms from our GM Han's line practice this way, slow first then speed. I found that this is a very good way of training. Eventually, all LF forms should be practiced fast. That is where the strength and power start to develope. Without power and speed, you won't get the benefit of LF form training.



... the Longfist player should be looking back at his opponent. I believe I've mentioned the intent to develop multi-directional awareness so to speak.


Well said. This is the most important key.

[YouKnowWho]

It's good that there is someone to back me up on this.
Beside Robert Young, I'll back you up on this too. As far as I know, the Xing Bu exists in at least 3 different CMA styles, the LF, Bagua, and SC. All 3 styles are from the north part of China. The long fist has a very special training and that is "multiple steps with single punch". In long fist Tan Tui #10, you move in 3 steps to deliver a single punch. In long fist Pao Chuan #3 there is a move called "running punch" that you punch when you are running. Both are pretty unique and I believe both use the same principle of Xing Bu. The Xing Bu training give you great mobility. It gives you the ability to "run like hell" when you lose a fight.


Dr. Yang states with emphasis the importance of walking as opposed to running and walking on the outside edges of the feet ...
Even if Dr. Yang and I had the same long fist teacher (He trained in Dan Jan University and I trained in Jan Kao High School), we have different opinion on this. As far as "walking on the outside edges", I believe it was trying to develop a good side kick (CMA side kick likes to use the outside edge instead of the bottom or heel of the foot).

[Ben Gash]

It may just be that the arms are incidental to the stepping, and it's just the posture they were in at the start. It is "ambush" fist, so the running away is not far fetched, as one of the principles is to draw your opponent in by seeming to retreat then coming back at them.
As a straight application of the technique as is, if you take the hook hand to be a wrist grab, the palm hits and then takes his head out of line. With his posture thus controlled you apply the sweep, but if he avoids the sweep you can put some weight on him and them drive him forward until he hits a wall or goes down.

[YouKnowWho]

draw your opponent in by seeming to retreat then coming back at them.
Agree! This is why when your pull your opponent around (pull him in circle is better than pull him in straight line), you don't want to look at him and you just run toward his back (nobody will like his opponent to be at his back). This will force him to make certain commitment, either follow you or resist you. Since you and his body are attached, you can sense his intention without looking at him. The moment that you can sense his commitment, the moment you can borrow his force by either help him to resist you some more or help him to run after you a bit faster.

Since the history of SC is much longer than the history of LF, I'll assume this LF strategy may come from SC.

[huolung]

[QUOTE=Robert Young;904639]Although Xing Bu in Chinese means walking step, it is actually a CMA way of running. Training Xing Bu starts with walking. After students develope a good posture or good way of walking, they should train for speed, which become running. All the LF forms from our GM Han's line practice this way, slow first then speed. I found that this is a very good way of training. Eventually, all LF forms should be practiced fast. That is where the strength and power start to develope. Without power and speed, you won't get the benefit of LF form training.




I agree with you on the importance of speed and especially the gradual development thereof. The only dispute I have (and a humble one at that) is that the science of running is quite different than what the posturing for xing bu would allow. Proper running technique is described as a controlled fall where the body's momentum is constantly moving forward. The balls of the feet strike the ground first, causing a spring-like action once the heels strike the ground. Successful running also calls for less contact between the feet and the ground in order to make it more efficient. Xing bu, on the other hand is meant to be executed from a significantly lower posture, which like all stances in longfist provides better rooting. The heels are to contact the ground first with a thorough rolling of the feet from heel to toe (and emphasis of weight on the outer edges). The low posture makes for a longer stride and more control. This control allows for one to stop or change direction without the inertial resistance that running would cause. Of course I could be totally wrong and that's okay, as your take is a very fresh and new way for me to look at this technique.


Namaste

[Robert Young]

[QUOTE=Robert Young;904639]Although Xing Bu in Chinese means walking step, it is actually a CMA way of running. Training Xing Bu starts with walking. After students develope a good posture or good way of walking, they should train for speed, which become running. All the LF forms from our GM Han's line practice this way, slow first then speed. I found that this is a very good way of training. Eventually, all LF forms should be practiced fast. That is where the strength and power start to develope. Without power and speed, you won't get the benefit of LF form training.




I agree with you on the importance of speed and especially the gradual development thereof. The only dispute I have (and a humble one at that) is that the science of running is quite different than what the posturing for xing bu would allow. Proper running technique is described as a controlled fall where the body's momentum is constantly moving forward. The balls of the feet strike the ground first, causing a spring-like action once the heels strike the ground. Successful running also calls for less contact between the feet and the ground in order to make it more efficient. Xing bu, on the other hand is meant to be executed from a significantly lower posture, which like all stances in longfist provides better rooting. The heels are to contact the ground first with a thorough rolling of the feet from heel to toe (and emphasis of weight on the outer edges). The low posture makes for a longer stride and more control. This control allows for one to stop or change direction without the inertial resistance that running would cause. Of course I could be totally wrong and that's okay, as your take is a very fresh and new way for me to look at this technique.


Namaste

I don't see where our view is different. The purpose of Xing Bu is exactly what you said here.

I think the confusion part is that your running is normal people's definition of running. I have mentioned earlier that Xing Bu is CMA way's of running.

A very common problem of people practicing LF, especially our GM Han's line, is that there is no power and speed in their forms' practice. This situation is also common in my own line, also is very common in most of my LF uncles. Most LF people have pretty descent structures (stances and postures), but not the power and speed. Xin Bu is especially common in this case. Without training speed, Xing Bu is only a different way of walking. There would be no MA benefit but for health purpose.

[huolung]

[QUOTE=huolung;904918]

I don't see where our view is different. The purpose of Xing Bu is exactly what you said here.

I think the confusion part is that your running is normal people's definition of running. I have mentioned earlier that Xing Bu is CMA way's of running.

A very common problem of people practicing LF, especially our GM Han's line, is that there is no power and speed in their forms' practice. This situation is also common in my own line, also is very common in most of my LF uncles. Most LF people have pretty descent structures (stances and postures), but not the power and speed. Xin Bu is especially common in this case. Without training speed, Xing Bu is only a different way of walking. There would be no MA benefit but for health purpose.



Ahso! My apologies. Thanks for clarifying.
Namaste

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have no qualms about the strategic applications about the running step shared in this thread, but in the form that MK referred to the opponent was already thrown before the steps were taken. If the guy has been already thrown, why drag him?


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

If the guy has been already thrown, why drag him?
Maybe you want to drag the dead body away from the crime scene. Or maybe you want to bring food back to your nest to feed your young.

[mickey]

Greetings YouKnowWho,

In other words....you saw that, too? Okay, we are dragging the dead body away. :)

You're too much! :)


mickey

[punchdrunk]

nice to hear some of the ideas from long fist forms, considering how many longfist people must be out there we don't hear nearly enough from them. Thanks for sharing guys.

[YouKnowWho]

If the guy has been already thrown, why drag him?
Since when you execute your "leg sweep", you will use your left hand (in this clip) to pull down your opponent's shoulder or neck. The right hand is the one that you use to control his arm, and since in this clip, his right hand is forward and left hand is behind, I assume this the the breaking point between the previous sequence and the up coming sequence. There may not have any relation between the leg sweep and Xing Bu IMO.

[mickey]

Greetings,

YouKnowWho, I agree with you.


mickey

[Shaolinlueb]

some of these reply's had me chuckling.

drag the body from the crime scene. rofl

[Tainan Mantis]

The form here, Mai Fu, means to ambush.
The underlying concept of the characters mai fu are to lie in wait and attack the enemy unawares.

Hiding in the tall grass and springing out behind them as they pass would be an example of this idea.

In this form the concept of mai fu is applied in retreat. Once an attack by you is made you run away to escape in order to induce your opponent to commit to forward movement.

At that time you turn around and attack.

TWO PERSON SETS

There quite a few long fist forms that apply this principle in the two person sets.

This teacher, Zhou Baofu, is well known for making the forms look aesthetically pleasing to the eyes. So the retreating move looks a little bit like he is GOING somewhere as opposed to ESCAPING.

[huolung]

The form here, Mai Fu, means to ambush.
The underlying concept of the characters mai fu are to lie in wait and attack the enemy unawares.

Hiding in the tall grass and springing out behind them as they pass would be an example of this idea.

In this form the concept of mai fu is applied in retreat. Once an attack by you is made you run away to escape in order to induce your opponent to commit to forward movement.

At that time you turn around and attack.

TWO PERSON SETS

There quite a few long fist forms that apply this principle in the two person sets.

This teacher, Zhou Baofu, is well known for making the forms look aesthetically pleasing to the eyes. So the retreating move looks a little bit like he is GOING somewhere as opposed to ESCAPING.


YUP! You are wise indeed...