Standing submission in 2008 Shootboxing S-Cup

[MasterKiller]

http://i36.tinypic.com/34ilop2.gif

[Lucas]

http://i36.tinypic.com/34ilop2.gif

but wait. isnt this one of those things that we arent suppose to be able to do. you know, the reason why chin na is pointless...:eek:

[MasterKiller]

but wait. isnt this one of those things that we arent suppose to be able to do. you know, the reason why chin na is pointless...:eek:

Well, to be fair, there is no groundfighting in Shootboxing, so obviously if you can't go to the ground, it limits your escapes.

[Lucas]

ya, still pretty awesome though.

how do you get those little vids like that?

[lkfmdc]

in the 5 years (or more?) that they have allowed standing submissions, there have been less than a handful you can point to.....

[SimonM]

From my experience standing submissions are difficult to execute easier to escape and limited in scope of applicability. But they aren't entirely useless.

[Lucas]

so from a self defense/offense standpoint, how difficult do you think it is to break/tear/dislocate the joint, as opposed to submission.

rather than a controled applied pressure, it would be a quick abrubt sharp application.

i know we dont really, know, the answer since no one is going around doing this.

but just for speculations sake...

[Three Harmonies]

Well that was a choke first of all, and it is very doable (back in the dizay I got several of these when bouncing).
As for tearing and destroying.... look up Shinya Aoki's arm break from a few years back.
Jake

[Lucas]

Well that was a choke first of all, and it is very doable (back in the dizay I got several of these when bouncing).
As for tearing and destroying.... look up Shinya Aoki's arm break from a few years back.
Jake

ya i remember watching that break.

thats my point, if you remember that vid, it was fast. it almost seemed to suprise both fighters, definately the guy that got his arm messed up.

my point being, breaks/tears/etc. , from a reality stand point, are easier to pull off than standing submissions.

granted a choke is a choke, but you can still do some nasty stuff to someone you are choking, especially if its standing.

also im just trying to talk about things other than the US govt.

[diego]

ya i remember watching that break.

thats my point, if you remember that vid, it was fast. it almost seemed to suprise both fighters, definately the guy that got his arm messed up.

my point being, breaks/tears/etc. , from a reality stand point, are easier to pull off than standing submissions.

granted a choke is a choke, but you can still do some nasty stuff to someone you are choking, especially if its standing.

also im just trying to talk about things other than the US govt.

makes sence to me, usually chinna is blended with the whole taking his center stomp the knees hit the groin...claw the face tear the eyes and footsweep same hand and leg...when he falls do standing wrist break/lock.

no one is maiming their opponnents so mma is jokes, chinese knew what they were doing way back when pirates would invade. all of the mma vs kf fad was jokes and the lames that fell into it well. lol

[Lucas]

makes sence to me, usually chinna is blended with the whole taking his center stomp the knees hit the groin...claw the face tear the eyes and footsweep same hand and leg...when he falls do standing wrist break/lock.
no one is maiming their opponnents so mma is jokes, chinese knew what they were doing way back when pirates would invade. all of the mma vs kf fad was jokes and the lames that fell into it well. lol

thats such an awesome mental image when your not expecting it, lol.

the mma vs kungfu thing always makes me throw up a little bit. you know when you catch it just before it gets in your mouth then you swallow to keep it down.

[diego]

thats such an awesome mental image when your not expecting it, lol.

the mma vs kungfu thing always makes me throw up a little bit. you know when you catch it just before it gets in your mouth then you swallow to keep it down.


all the old masters say in the end a punch is a punch you just do basics. lol, in my carear studying youtube martial media it shows me that all red belt grandmasters are just really good beginners.


bjj when you are 60 no more chasing the guy around, you sit there and take it like a little ***** and maybe break his thumb, get up and run.

KF @ 60 no more low sweeps and jump kicks, tornado like lightning fast long fist combo's...just basic jab, cross, hook, upswing and finger strike just like old Bruce said. buddy trys to hump you so you flick his eye hit the groin and stomp the jaw, try to wheel chair your ass back home.

I truly believe JKD self defense manuals is where martial arts are going...no one has the time to live like an athlete so the sport of mma is just hype...self defense is why we do martial art. gimmicks everything else be...

[SimonM]

makes sence to me, usually chinna is blended with the whole taking his center stomp the knees hit the groin...claw the face tear the eyes and footsweep same hand and leg...when he falls do standing wrist break/lock.

no one is maiming their opponnents so mma is jokes, chinese knew what they were doing way back when pirates would invade. all of the mma vs kf fad was jokes and the lames that fell into it well. lol

Before I am too harsh of your posting style could you please clarify for me if English is your first language?

[MasterKiller]

you know when you catch it just before it gets in your mouth then you swallow to keep it down. That's what she said!

[Ray Pina]

Two things

1) Just sent that link off to my coach. I like that and want to learn it though I realize it won't be so easy to pull off.... what else is new?

2) Why, every time something cool or useful is demonstrated in video someone has to pop off that Kung Fu does it too, in this case being Chin Na? So far in every example it has been clear as day the person doing the cool thing is not a Kung Fu player.... they're fighting already. That's exhibit numero uno. All the proof you need already. Just enjoy it, incorporate it. If you want to claim it for Kung Fu do it yourself or dig up a Kung Fu example.

[MasterKiller]

1) Just sent that link off to my coach. I like that and want to learn it though I realize it won't be so easy to pull off.... what else is new? Ray, It's just an arm triangle. I originally learned it as a counter after you parry a jab.

Incidentally, LKFMDC teaches this submission on his DVDs from a single neck tie.

[MasterKiller]

Well that was a choke first of all, and it is very doable (back in the dizay I got several of these when bouncing).
As for tearing and destroying.... look up Shinya Aoki's arm break from a few years back.
Jake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

[Knifefighter]

http://i36.tinypic.com/34ilop2.gif

Like all submissions, that submission is much more effective when done on the ground. When locked in on the ground, it is almost impossible to counter. When done standing, however, it is very easily countered with a simple technique.

[SimonM]

2) Why, every time something cool or useful is demonstrated in video someone has to pop off that Kung Fu does it too, in this case being Chin Na?

Well this IS a CMA forum.

[Lucas]

That's what she said!

lol

1234567

[Lucas]

Well this IS a CMA forum.

also i was just popping off being a jokster.

kinda filling in the spot of the expected CMA guy.

isnt that a tradition around here?

[Oso]

i'd have to see another angle before I agreed it was a choke...or an arm triangle/choke...or a bigger pic for my old ass eyes...

i don't see it as a choke because I don't see any compression on the airway at all and minimal on the blood vessels...there seems to be a large gap/space under the dudes left arm...it's very high on the front of the neck/throat if at all placing any pressure there.

so...I wonder if he is getting the sub by virtue of pain due to compression of the nerves on the upper vertebre and/or compression of the vertebre/spine

[MasterKiller]

i'd have to see another angle before I agreed it was a choke...or an arm triangle/choke...or a bigger pic for my old ass eyes...

i don't see it as a choke because I don't see any compression on the airway at all and minimal on the blood vessels...there seems to be a large gap/space under the dudes left arm...it's very high on the front of the neck/throat if at all placing any pressure there.

so...I wonder if he is getting the sub by virtue of pain due to compression of the nerves on the upper vertebre and/or compression of the vertebre/spine

It's a simple arm triangle.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HmNzO9LwAn4

[Three Harmonies]

Oso
Trust me, it is a choke!
Jake

[Oso]

It's a simple arm triangle.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HmNzO9LwAn4


only at the end of that clip can you see that he has compression on the throat in the clip of the fight there is a huge gap between the guys arm and the neck...still not convinced of what happened in the fight.

[Oso]

Oso
Trust me, it is a choke!
Jake

why would I trust your opinion that it's a choke?

[MasterKiller]

only at the end of that clip can you see that he has compression on the throat in the clip of the fight there is a huge gap between the guys arm and the neck...still not convinced of what happened in the fight.

Personal belief is not a prerequisite of absolute truth.

[Ray Pina]

Personal belief is not a prerequisite of absolute truth.

Fu(k yea! You just earned my respect for life with that!

Thanks for the post. Now I understand.... I pull those off after punishing a guy in side control, we call it "cien kilo" down here. Bump the forearm away, pin the head to the mat, take mount, finish.

That's super impressive to pull that off on someone who's standing and punching back. I'm nowhere near that comfort level yet. Big Balls! I got to watch that video again.

Thanks again.

[Knifefighter]

Oso
Trust me, it is a choke!
Jake

The tap from a head and arm choke like that, or others such as the Von Flue or D'Arce, generally comes as a result of both pressure to the neck and a blood choke. Sometimes you have to tap from the pressure, sometimes to the choke itself.

[Knifefighter]

I pull those off after punishing a guy in side control, we call it "cien kilo" down here. Bump the forearm away, pin the head to the mat, take mount, finish.

Generally, you are better off to finish a head and arm on the side rather than the mount.

[Ray Pina]

You know what it is. I usually pass to the left (like my weed) and get side control and start looking for that far arm (their left) for Americana/Kimora or armbar. They push off with it..... so to finish from the side, wouldn't I have to go to mount and then to the opposite side? I'm asking genuinely? I'm a newb and a kook.

[MasterKiller]

You know what it is. I usually pass to the left (like my weed) and get side control and start looking for that far arm (their left) for Americana/Kimora or armbar. They push off with it..... so to finish from the side, wouldn't I have to go to mount and then to the opposite side? I'm asking genuinely? I'm a newb and a kook.

I actutally prefer to do Arm Triangles from North/South, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8Egt1ePiI

[Knifefighter]

You know what it is. I usually pass to the left (like my weed) and get side control and start looking for that far arm (their left) for Americana/Kimora or armbar. They push off with it..... so to finish from the side, wouldn't I have to go to mount and then to the opposite side? I'm asking genuinely? I'm a newb and a kook.

Yes, you need to be on the same side as the arm. You can skip the mount and move right on over to the far side. Going for the mount first can get you stuck in half guard.

[MasterKiller]

Yes, you need to be on the same side as the arm. You can skip the mount and move right on over to the far side. Going for the mount first can get you stuck in half guard.

From side control, I learned to do a "jump-ship" (what my teacher called it). You pin their arm with your head, then jump over to the opposite side and slide into the arm triangle, similar to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWu32GbjI0A

[Oso]

Personal belief is not a prerequisite of absolute truth.


it's not personal belief...you can clearly see the guys neck and that the other guys arm is not on it for either a wind or blood choke...i think he submitted due to a neck or jaw crank from that lock.

don't know what that guys background was but i do know that catch wrestlers like (or at least the one I knew and learned a bit from liked ) to crank the jaw and that it can hurt enough to tap