Tang Lang Methods

[Shaolin Master]

We always talk about who is best, who is authentic, etc.......for a change lets make a topic.

Fellow tang lang practitioners I would like to commence a discussion on the training in tanglang as you see it.

In your respective tanglang styles (doesn't matter which) what is the approach to developing the methods of quicker steps, are your forms learnt one way first (fundamentally) and then developed further. What type of methods do you use to strengthen your fundamental methods. How do you train in developing particular forms of Jing or tanglang shou (like sticky,trapping and pulling training) etc.....oh and also how about step methods (lightness and nimbleness) ...


Regards

Shi Chan Long

[mantis108]

Interesting. I don't speak for others in TCPM. Here's my take: Footwork to me is of utmost importance. There are quite a number of exercises and drills in TCPM to train that (see the list below). A lot of the concepts are in the 2 men drills. Push hand and sticky hands for sensitivity. IMHO, the core teaching of TCPM is in the 64 Sau Fa (actually more than 64 if the counters are included). I would liken it to the Wing Chun's Chi Sau. So Sau Fa is my main focus. I will always stick to Sigung's advice that is to spend more time with Sau Fa.

Exercises and drills of TCPM

Tui Sei Moon
Dai Sei Moon
Sarm Bei Sai
Jin Bo Sarm Tsui
Lou Hau Shan Fung
and others.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Taijimantis]

Just to add one thing to what my brother Mantis 108 said...

The thing to improve on all of the above according to my sifu...

Practice.

Namaste.

[Shaolin Master]

Everyone knows 'practice'...we talking about practice what..not just practice /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...Regards friends

SO that is TCPM...how about 7Star and others....?

Regards
Shi Chan Long.

Once we have all cards on table we can break it down to understand each hand ..:)

[8stepsifu]

If I'm understanding the question correctly then it's methods of training. Our training methods differ from stage to stage. In the begining students work on Tan Tui (body coordinations) after this they begin learning hand strikes, palms, fists etc, then kicking, sets with ever increasing physical fitness routines. Chi Sau (sensetivity sparring) is taught and drilled from early one. First train the body, then train reactions, then comes actual fighting. Anyway, for kicking, training involves endurances such as standing on one leg and kicking 100-200 times and holding your leg out strait for a few minutes. Throwing also has these endurances and form specific excersices. For grip, there are many excersices to get grip and waist movement. It should go without saying that there is lots of stance training and chi kung at it's given stage. Also there are focus pad drills and combos and heavy bag work, jumping rope etc. Also blindfolded chi sau and sparring both with gear and with only grappling gloves. Because of the nature of our system, chi sau can and usually does go to a throw and ends with grappling or a standing joint lock. In spite of what some may say, I think that chi sau is one of the best ways to improve a person's skill in kung fu.

8Step Sif

[This message was edited by 8stepsifu on 11-25-00 at 11:11 AM.]

[Vertiggo]

I vividly recall my teacher once telling me that training is 95% mental preparation and boy, was he right. I literally had to psyche myself 3x's a week just to show up at the school door because I used dread the idea of enduring the first half of class which always consisted various drills for an hour-and-a-half:

-20 minute deep/low horse stance
-stance drills from both sides: front horse, side, crane, monkey, seven star, cat, crossed, mantis hops, various rolls.
-punch & palm strikes drills: rolling punches, 1-punch 1,2,3,4,5, etc.
-kicks: 1-kick equals 1,2,3,4,5, crescent inside & outside, tornado, windmill, ground, etc.
-calisthenics: isometric, holding a steel bar upfront while in various horses, breathing, various pushups, ab work, etc.

After these drills, then we would proceed in toughening/conditioning exercises:

-palm strikes on various padded objects/bags (iron palm followed with application of dit dat jow).
-wooden dummy
-2-man drills
-striking at the an iron pole to toughen forearms
-working on the heavy bag

Followed with forms training:

-gung lik keun, bung bo, etc.
-weapons training
-two-man sets

And then:

-sparring, sparring, and lots of sparring as we referred as "playing the gung fu" (YEAH!!!)

/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[ShaolinMantis]

I am training with my Sisuk ( Shisu )quite a bit these days. As a TCPM & Taiji (Chen & Yang)he believes the foundations, the essense of ALL kung fu styles are the same. Therefore working the Basics, working the basics, working the basics will enhance your skills on most levels. Lots of Horse stance training 3- 5 mintues daily, then other stances ( forward, cross leg, taiji, etc ) same timing, for all styles. Correct basic punches ( 2 direction with body not arms) For TCPM - single steps drills (20) also 8 step drills. For TCPM and Taiji Push hands ( two hands, single hands, moving ). As for forms, there are basicly three levels of skill. Bum Bo for example: learn the basic moves, techniques, aplications, balance. Next level, understanding and training with fighting and lightness in mind. and so on...

My Sifu (#2) who does TCPM , Bei Shaolin, 7 Star.
Drills us with stances, Elbow strike drills, Single step, 8 step drills, lots of two man drills, Chi Sao type drills, Lots O kicks ( Northern Shaolin )

For my Students & myself: All of the above adding some Two man drills, Chi Sao type training from Kali/Aris working angles, footwork, body position. closing "the gap"

[Ericsepishii]

I am with Sifu Brendan Lai's class,
re: WHF lineage Northern (7 *) Praying Mantis.

One of the steps that we practice is
the monkey step stance. Not only going foward
but step / retreat, step / retreat;
step, step, retreat, step, step, retreat;
retreat, step, step, retreat, step, step, etc..

When practicing, we tend to concentrate on
certain two man exercises, which when done
properly slowly builds up / improves one's
abilities. These exercises range from simple
two movement exercises to those that are several
motions long and more complex. Depending
on the exercise, one's sensitivity, sticky force,
trapping & pulling ability, blocking and hitting,
advancing and retreating stepping, etc. are worked on.

Some of these exercises are as follows:

#1 Dieu Sau re: Mantis hook/pulling
#2 Au Lau Choi aka: Dieu Fung Tung or 1-2-3
#3 Kwa Sau, Lau Sau (Tung Choi)
#4 Jeem Sau (two types with or without stepping)
#5 Patt On aka: Slapping the Table
#6 Tow Fah San aka: Peach Tree Umbrella
#7 Hak Fu Tow Sum aka: Blk Tiger Steals Heart

As for developing Jing, after being shown and
told about a particular motion that requires Fah Jing by Sifu Lai, this is more or less left up to
the student to work on by him/her self or with
the assistance of fellow students.

[Vertiggo]

What's fah jing???

[Shaolin Master]

A little difficult to translate adequately...but...you could say 'Coiling or Spring Energy'

[shaolin mantis]

Hard training is a requirement in attaining a high
level of kung fu. A lot is learned from training
for the first 10 to 20 years. After so many years
the amount of new knowledge levels off. So what is
important is understanding of the system you are
practicing for so many year. One need to know and
understand the principles behind certain movements
or techniques. Once you understand the principles,
then everything should be automatic. Its like learning to ride a bike. Once you have the balance
and courage to ride the bike, then you will find
out that the faster you go the harder it is to
fall. The forms or sets that you practice is like
reading a book. Everyone interprets what they read differently. So like the point of the book one needed to interpret what the sets are trying to teach you. Each movement in a set is like a word in the book. You needed to put all the words
together to understant what's going on.

[Robinf]

We do a lot of conditioning practice first alongside learning forms. Forms are learned and practiced each move then strung together and then speed is added on.

The conditioning is just different drills to work on transitioning between stances, between techniques, etc., taken from different forms.

Personally, now this is personally, I have found that sport Taekwondo has helped me immensely with quickening my footwork. The downside is that you get in the habit of always being on your toes, so extra attention has to be payed when translating this energy to kung fu to keep myself rooted.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[count]

Shaolin Master,
Maybe this is useful? Here is a method to train the hopping energy required in mantis as well as angles of attack and defense. We work on a triangle for angles or two triangles for two man drills. You can place your front foot on the front tip and rear foot on a rear point. Of course your chest is either facing in to the triangle or facing out. We than practice changing from side to side using either an empty stance or 70-30 or 60-40 stance. You will notice that if you change the front foot for the back your chest faces the opposite direction too. When hopping or stepping from side to side change your hands as well. Later on you can train with a partner using the go, lo, tsai and kua blocking/trapping hands. Kind of like a Praying mantis push hand drill. Well, I don't know if I have explained this well enough to try on your own but if you do you will find the burn in your legs and really develope speed and opening and closing skills among other things. Lot's of fun too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Shaolin Master]

Thank you for your replies everyone, it is nice to see the reflections of a traditional and a modern approach.
Count, I understand what you are saying completely but usually we use that as a shuffling step not so much a hop as it sort of loses the momentum or continuity of the push hands.
Shaolin mantis, thanks for the second general comment (I appreciated the first even more) but we all know that but we as practitioners must be able to see things not from our own level but from all levels thus we can appreciate ...do u not think so:) Also we must never take the fundamentals for granted:)
Eric, Vertiggo, 8Step and Mantis108 Thanks...I look forward to your well structured and thought replies....regards to u /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


ANYWAY ...lets move once the foundations are grasped the learning of forms (Combat, skill training and the rest later even though it is probably concurrent) is the next concept. Now in the approach that I was accustomed to the forms didn't have to much of an order after the fundamentals as they simply were reflected as differing concepts rather than levels of concepts. The levels as such would develop and could be applied to all levels of forms.
However some sort of systemisation would be good.

Thus it would be nice to look at different styles of Tanglang and whether they are systematic in their approach [in terms of forms]. So if you could state the Tanglang branch you are referring to and then if there is any particular order of things that would be good. Also 2 man forms are they learnt straight after the pertaining one man form or at a latter stage (7 star practitioners).

Weaponry can be included if desired.

Thank you once again and I look forward to your genuine responses

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[ShaolinMantis]

greetings

ShaolinMaster: I am guessing that you got a little mixed up with with the names on the posts. Since I did not post but once. The second was from the new SM, who wants my name. Resonable mistake. I am sure there will be more confusion later, unless one of us changes the screen name...

As far as training order for Mantis. Under my 1st Sifu we learned 7 star percing hand (or spear hand) first.
The timing, techniques, balance, power. Next was Bum bo. The prelude for the Mantis training was, Tan Tui, Lohan, and Shaolin #6 & 7. After that we moved on to Mantis, with some shifting back to Northern Shaolin before moving on to more advance Mantis sets.
With Sifu #2 (TCPM)we started with Kun Luk Kuen, then Bumbo.

Now after years of training, I have returned to the beginings. Everything makes more sense, and compliments everything else. More of the focus on my training has been not only for me to do things correctly ( small details, body alinement,hips, power delivery, angles ) but how to teach correctly. The enlightenment on that alone is amazing. On more than one occassion, I have been told, when teaching show your students this way, for your own practice, do it this way. When the student has proved themselves more, show them/add this concept(s) to their training.

My respects

ShaolinMantis-I

[Fu Manchu]

Vertiggo,

and after all that... when are you allowed to go home?

But seriously - do you train this way every class?

[beiquan]

ShaolinMantis - are you by any chance a student of Kam Yuen? just curious, because the only mantis people i have seen who also practice shaolin #6 and #7 were from his line (there is a school down here, sifu manuel marquez, that does this)

[ShaolinMantis]

beiquan:
Yes I am from that line, I will be at Manuel SiDai's this weekend for the Demo.

As for Shaolin 6 & 7 , Eng Sifu's Tai-Mantis school also does this, coming as well from the Wong Jac Man SiGung Lineage

[This message was edited by ShaolinMantis - I on 12-08-00 at 05:39 PM.]

[Vertiggo]

Fu Manchu,

Yes, every workout was essentially the same, except for Friday's where right after drills we went straight to sparring, sparring, sparring - playin' the gung fu. Here's an example of a typical workout:

The first half would consist of training in fundamentals: stances (static & dynamic), punch, palm, & kicking drills, calisthenics like various styles of pushups, ab work, etc. This would take about an hour.

After that, we would get a breather for 5 minutes, dry off, change T's or something and then proceed to forms training (hands, 2-man, or weapon) for about an hour or work on the wooden dummy or 2-man conditioning drills, iron palm, etc. This is another hour.

The rest of the class was devoted to sparring with everyone, including the teacher. He would call your name and you would have to get on the floor with him and "play the gung-fu." I hated/loved sparring with him because he would always use locks, traps, groundfighting, lots of footwork (hops, rolls, monkey) and pressure points. The best part was that sparring with him was like a chess match. You literally was forced to think in terms of strategies, feints, traps, etc. It was nothing compared to what I've witnessed in alot of schools were sparring is essentially kickboxing. We actually learned/played the system. This lasted for about 2 hours.

Oh yeah, class typically started at 7pm and was over by 11pm.

Hoped I answered your question satisfactorily.

--Vertiggo