Style vs Training

[sihing]

Something got me curious and I thought I would post my thoughts and questions. Looking at MMA, I believe it is a generalized method of training rather than a specified way of combat. Some look at MMA as a style I don't, that is why I don't understand the endless comparison's.

So now, using this example, it would be great to figure this out. If someone took a totally untrained person (no boxing, grappling or MA experience), who is in relatively decent shape, and showed them a good bag rountine (not how to hit the bag, just the routine), had them spar, grapple (again no coaching on technique or strategy) and showed them a conditioning routine for them to go thru on a regular basis. Now, how would this guy do, after 4 weeks of this with let's say 10 workouts a week. This would represent someone that is conditioned to fight but has no real skills, only those learned from his own thoughts and understanding from his experience over the last 4 weeks.

Now, what would happen to his effectiveness is he was trained in a specific Martial Art or a bunch of them (WC &/or Boxing, Wrestling &/or BJJ). By what % do you think he would improve? I wonder what the ratio between conditioning and skill breaks down too.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Something got me curious and I thought I would post my thoughts and questions. Looking at MMA, I believe it is a generalized method of training rather than a specified way of combat. Some look at MMA as a style I don't, that is why I don't understand the endless comparison's.

So now, using this example, it would be great to figure this out. If someone took a totally untrained person (no boxing, grappling or MA experience), who is in relatively decent shape, and showed them a good bag rountine (not how to hit the bag, just the routine), had them spar, grapple (again no coaching on technique or strategy) and showed them a conditioning routine for them to go thru on a regular basis. Now, how would this guy do, after 4 weeks of this with let's say 10 workouts a week. This would represent someone that is conditioned to fight but has no real skills, only those learned from his own thoughts and understanding from his experience over the last 4 weeks.

Now, what would happen to his effectiveness is he was trained in a specific Martial Art or a bunch of them (WC &/or Boxing, Wrestling &/or BJJ). By what % do you think he would improve? I wonder what the ratio between conditioning and skill breaks down too.

James

How do you teach someone a "bag routine" or get the sparring or grappling, without teaching them how to do it???

[anerlich]

I can't see the point of pursuing such a hypothetical because it would never happen.

MMA is not a "generalised way of training." It is a point of view that assumes that to maximise one's chances in fighting, or martial competition, with as few rules as possible, you need to have skills in unattached and attached striking, in the clinch or on the ground, or at least have meqns of countering or neutralising those with skills on those areas.

Your post indicates you feel that MMA does not require much skill. Unless you have superb physical attributes, that notion is profoundly incorrect.

That notion displays not insight, only ignorance.

[stonecrusher69]

Something got me curious and I thought I would post my thoughts and questions. Looking at MMA, I believe it is a generalized method of training rather than a specified way of combat. Some look at MMA as a style I don't, that is why I don't understand the endless comparison's.

So now, using this example, it would be great to figure this out. If someone took a totally untrained person (no boxing, grappling or MA experience), who is in relatively decent shape, and showed them a good bag rountine (not how to hit the bag, just the routine), had them spar, grapple (again no coaching on technique or strategy) and showed them a conditioning routine for them to go thru on a regular basis. Now, how would this guy do, after 4 weeks of this with let's say 10 workouts a week. This would represent someone that is conditioned to fight but has no real skills, only those learned from his own thoughts and understanding from his experience over the last 4 weeks.

Now, what would happen to his effectiveness is he was trained in a specific Martial Art or a bunch of them (WC &/or Boxing, Wrestling &/or BJJ). By what % do you think he would improve? I wonder what the ratio between conditioning and skill breaks down too.

James


If the guy is doing bag work and is sparing all the time even for 4 weeks he'll develope some skill. How much is uncertain. Not much for sure but more then he had before. What makes a good fighters is not all tecnique or conditioning. Some people you can't just mess with. The fighting spirt is the most important element not training or tecnique .

[Knifefighter]

If a physical confrontation lasts more than 30 seconds, conditioning is going to play a huge role in the outcome.

That being said, you can take the best conditioned guy in the world, and, if he has no fight training or experience, he will get dominated by someone who has fight training, but less conditioning.

An yes, style matters. That's why you can't take a guy who is a world class wrestler, put a stick in his hand and expect him to do well in a full contact stick fighting match.

[chisauking]

Compared to developing real wing chun skills, Fighting is easy.

Get anyone from a poor background, with little hope and care for society…..put him in the following program:

2-hours punch bag routine, 2-hours kicking a padded post, 4-miles run, random mistreatment (on a physical & psychological level), S&C routine – all on a daily basis.

Take him out for regular fights….let him taste pain & flow of adrenaline….build his confidence with experience of violence…

In 6-months’ time – wahlah! You would have someone that’s very capable in fighting (for real, not in some pansy make-believe sparring in a club environment), and I would be confident enough to state that this person would be able to beat most members of this forum in a REAL fight.

This program is real simple, but it develops most attributes needed for fighting: courage, violent mindset, strength, speed & timing, endurance\stamina (cardiovascular fitness), resilience to pain, body conditioning.

In fact, this was how two of my friends were trained. They were debt collectors, trained by the triads for the role of enforcement. All they did on a daily basis was to hit bags and kick post, spar – literally until their hands & shines bleed. Their leader would take them out to cause trouble, picking fights whenever possible. After a while, they got so good at fighting, they would fight multiple opponents at once. One of them had developed such a powerful punch that when you held a punch pad for him, his punch would make a loud crack and more often than not, hurt the person holding up the pad. On a few occasions, I have seen them knock people out with single punches.

Time is important to those ‘organisations’. They don’t have 5-years’ training people to use wing chun.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Still not sure what the parameters of the question are. But, if this mysterious chap pounds away at a bag and rolls around on the ground without technical guidance, he will be an unsophisticated, unintelligent fighter. Sure, the physical aspects of the training may give him the feel for bashing things in. But this is not fighting. Even an intelligent streetfighter is given feedback from his experience which he can apply in order to improve.

I sincerely hope MMA is not considered to be a generalized method of training. I am sure many would argue that it is as valid a martial art as any other, albeit, with a shorter history.

I just realized that I have seen a few "home-trained" fighters compete in MMA competitions organized by my grappling coach. These guys usually end up getting picked apart by other newbie fighters who have had the benefit of some coaching.

Suki

[sihing]

How do you teach someone a "bag routine" or get the sparring or grappling, without teaching them how to do it???

For the bag routine, you tell them the routine, not teach them how to do, e.g. make him do rounds on the bag, starting with 4 2 min rounds, 30-40 seconds rests inbetween. The rounds increase every week. You can also explain the idea of pacing, and not to go all out for the 2min duration, stuff like that. The only thing you don't do is show him proper punching and kicking technique.

Similar thinking for the sparring and grappling. You don't correct them when they are sparring with a parnter, just get them in there for rounds and rest inbetween, same with grappling.

James

[sihing]

If the guy is doing bag work and is sparing all the time even for 4 weeks he'll develope some skill. How much is uncertain. Not much for sure but more then he had before. What makes a good fighters is not all tecnique or conditioning. Some people you can't just mess with. The fighting spirt is the most important element not training or tecnique .


Yup I agree, one would of course gain some improvement just from performing the task, and his own ability to improve his technique just from trial and error type thinking.

I agree also with your statement about fighting spirit, the thing is things like that are inconclusive and there is no way to measure it until the two fighters are out there. The one that walks away obviously has more of the fighting spirit than the other.

The thing is, IMO without the actual teaching of a particular style of hitting or grappling, one's improvement is not nearly as high as if he was taught the proper mechanics and techniques.


James

[sihing]

Still not sure what the parameters of the question are. But, if this mysterious chap pounds away at a bag and rolls around on the ground without technical guidance, he will be an unsophisticated, unintelligent fighter. Sure, the physical aspects of the training may give him the feel for bashing things in. But this is not fighting. Even an intelligent streetfighter is given feedback from his experience which he can apply in order to improve.

I sincerely hope MMA is not considered to be a generalized method of training. I am sure many would argue that it is as valid a martial art as any other, albeit, with a shorter history.

I just realized that I have seen a few "home-trained" fighters compete in MMA competitions organized by my grappling coach. These guys usually end up getting picked apart by other newbie fighters who have had the benefit of some coaching.

Suki

MMA compared to a system like WC, IMO is much more generalized, in the sense that you are learning much more than just a particular range of fighting (like really getting into the science of boxing, or Muay Thai, but just skimming the surface to get the basic skills). Some MMA guys train at MMA gyms, other's like GSP go to the specific places, like a boxing gym to box, a wrestling gym to wrestle and a kickboxing gym to kickbox. He is training in specific gyms to learn and train in their method, to combine it himself in application. If you have the time and energy this would be the way to go, instead of going to one gym to train all of it, maybe the information is not specific enough or the quality is not high enough to fulfill your needs. Just generalizing here, as I am sure there are gyms out there that have top notch Muay Thai guys, Boxing coaches and Grappling Experts all in one place, the thing is you would have to be there all day everyday to gain great skill in all areas, average people don't have that luxury.

I think Bruce put it best, he said one cannot fight from a pure naturalness state as this would be too unscientific and lack economy of motion and logic; and that one cannot fight from a purely scientific POV, here you would be fighting like a mechanical man. The key is to be naturally unnatural, or unnaturally natural, combining both the learned skill in a specified environment and your ability to make those skills come out naturally without thought or thinking to interfere.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that certain styles demand a certain more athletic ability than others, certain systems attract fighters more than others.
MMA is, at its core, a basic blend of various MA, as we know, BUT as one progresses it can be as advanced as any other system out there, more so actually.
Of course the vast majority of fighters that are of the elite level have a sold core in a specilaized system, that may well be the case for many years, or perhaps not.
As training in MMA gets better and better the technical skills of fighters brought up in MMA will eventually equal those that are average in the specilaised areas.
I don't think they will ever match the elite level simple because, one can only do so much of many things compared to someone doing everything of one thing.

[bennyvt]

i dont think its a style thats why its called mma as in different martial arts mixed togeather. If you in to the mma school they normally teach mauy tai or kickboxing and some grappling style.

[m1k3]

I think the easiest way to look at it is that MMA is a rule set for a combative sport.

How you train and what you train is up to you. I am sure different fighters train in different ways and as the sport matures the training methods will continue to improve.

[Knifefighter]

I think that certain styles demand a certain more athletic ability than others,

Certain styles demand that you do in training what you would have to do for real... that's the only difference. The reason these styles "demand" more athletic ability is because they are closer to what is demanded in full-on physical confrontations.

Anyone who tells you that athletic ability is not needed is either clueless or blowing smoke up your ass (including the BJJ marketing B.S. that promises this).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Certain styles demand that you do in training what you would have to do for real... that's the only difference. The reason these styles "demand" more athletic ability is because they are closer to what is demanded in full-on physical confrontations.

Anyone who tells you that athletic ability is not needed is either clueless or blowing smoke up your ass (including the BJJ marketing B.S. that promises this).

Granted, but I think we all can agree that TKD demands a tad more athletic prowess than Ba gua or WC for example, don't see many of those people doing lead leg hook kicks and 360 deg spinning kicks, do we?

[Knifefighter]

Granted, but I think we all can agree that TKD demands a tad more athletic prowess than Ba gua or WC for example, don't see many of those people doing lead leg hook kicks and 360 deg spinning kicks, do we?

Using WC or Bagua in a physical confrontation is going to take just as much athletic ability as using TKD in that same confrontation. People who can and have used the former in confrontations get this. The problem is with those who don't understand this and sell the B.S.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Using WC or Bagua in a physical confrontation is going to take just as much athletic ability as using TKD in that same confrontation. People who can and have used the former in confrontations get this. The problem is with those who don't understand this and sell the B.S.

Well, even though we weren't discussing confrontations, I agree that ALL systems require a certain level of physical ability to be effective.
My point was that certain system require more than others, regardless of how effective they are.
Not to say that all TKD practioners are uber-athletes, far from that.
Typically though, in a system that prides itself with head high kicks, areal and jumping kicks, a certain athleticisim is a plus and as such, a typical practioner of such a system will be more athletic than one that doesn't require them to be so,

[anerlich]

Just generalizing here, as I am sure there are gyms out there that have top notch Muay Thai guys, Boxing coaches and Grappling Experts all in one place

There are such places, and not necessarily big and well known either. As in every profession, there are specialists and generalists, ands some who combine general competence with some specialist skills.


the thing is you would have to be there all day everyday to gain great skill in all areas,

Not really. It requires commitment, but most of the advanced guys at the place where I go can work all ranges quite well and some compete or have competed successfully at advanced levels. Even the school owner, who has fought Shooto professionally in Japan and medalled in black belt BJJ competition in Brazil and Australia, doesn't train or teach full time.


average people don't have that luxury.

"Average" people don't get really good at even one aspect of fighting. Average people drop out of MA after a few months. But to suggest you have to be superhuman or live like a monk to succeed in "MMA" is to limit your own possibilities or admit to limitations which aren't necessarily there.

[anerlich]

With regard to TKD, it is interesting that the Cuban guy that was in medal contention and got DQ'd and banned for life tried to kick the ref in the head, a clear undefended shot, and the ref hardly blinked, let alone got hurt.

Not saying you can't fight with TKD, but that even the techniques of elite level competitors aren't always the deadly strikes one might imagine. To which I imagine there are parallels in every art.

[Liddel]

Something got me curious and I thought I would post my thoughts and questions. Looking at MMA, I believe it is a generalized method of training rather than a specified way of combat. Some look at MMA as a style I don't, that is why I don't understand the endless comparison's.

I see what your saying James. I wouldnt call it generalised but its no secret there are arguments for both sides. Grapplers dont strike when rolling, boxers criticise MMA strikers technique etc etc.....generalised compared to only training in one dicipline but specialised in relation to cage or no holds barred fighting IMO.


what would happen to his effectiveness is he was trained in a specific Martial Art or a bunch of them (WC &/or Boxing, Wrestling &/or BJJ). By what % do you think he would improve?

Think about the best skilled people in MMA buddy, its my opinion that the best MMA fighters are those that started out in a TMA early in life..... they land actions others never tried untill the last few years... you wont see a spinning back kick in the first 40 odd UFC's IMO...

That said...

The person is the deciding factor IMO. some people are just athletic, they have a nack for picking up stuff physically, others....not so much :o

I feel tech is more important rather than conditioning, some fully fit guy may waste himself and gas out because he wastes energy when punching and the unfit guy conserves energy through knowledge and practice etc thats but one example.

Without proper instruction people can make a situation worse though. In a VT sence a guy can cross his arms giving you an advantage or lean to far loosing balance, a guy could see a RNC and try to do it muscling a guy to the ground only to cross his ankles in front for the experienced unfit opponent to take advantage of......

So i feel your question is too vauge and hypothetical to know for sure... one can postualte for discussions sake but at the end of the day i say it depends on the individual training the style...

and thats why i love MA's, no ones gunna save my a$$ but ME ! :p

balance is needed IMO, not enough conditioning make the difference with skill and vice versa.

LOL
DREW

[CFT]

With regard to TKD, it is interesting that the Cuban guy that was in medal contention and got DQ'd and banned for life tried to kick the ref in the head, a clear undefended shot, and the ref hardly blinked, let alone got hurt.

Not saying you can't fight with TKD, but that even the techniques of elite level competitors aren't always the deadly strikes one might imagine. To which I imagine there are parallels in every art.I think the guy was just p*ssed off and wanted to vent his frustration, not actually knock the ref out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the guy was just p*ssed off and wanted to vent his frustration, not actually knock the ref out.

I would agree, maybe, after all it was WTF Taekwon-doh ;)

On a side note, I recall, vividly, the first time I ever really kicked someone full force with a round kick, a time when everything clicked right.
It was in kyokushin, he was 198lbs and I was 155 at the time, it was in Montreal.
The round kick Knocked him out, cold, but what freaked me out was that it shattered his cheek, crushed his nose and there was so much blood.
Truly scared the crap out of me that day, I though I had killed him.
As it was he was "fine".
I think I probably drilled him as hard as I did because he was bigger, though it was full contact...I think that, at the time, I tend to subconciously hold back a bit when kicking to the head,
I know that, while I had spared with bigger, he was my first big opponent.
After that I did find myself 'pulling" kicks to the head, but I got that straightend out the old fashioned way, Got KO'd by a spinning round kick.
LOL !

[TenTigers]

yeah. When I was in TKD, I knocked a guy out with what I "thought" was just snapping a front leg roundhouse to the head. Not even with alot of power. It felt controlled. Yet, the guy was out. Don't underestimate "those flippy little kicks of TKD."

[sihing]

So then, taking the human element out of it (individual attributes, spirit, motivations, experience, etc...), can one put a number to how much conditioning, how much the style or way you do things effect one's ability to perform effectively in Martial Arts, Wing Chun in particular?

One reason for this thread is that fact that in the past I have stated that I like what I practice because I know that I don't have to be in tip top shape to make it work, it works all on it's own because it is a high quality art that teaches good basic combat principles and techniques (good fast stable footwork, powerful strikes, ability to adapt and change on the fly, good strategy) as compared to learning nothing at all; only to have others say in response something along the lines that if you think you can fight without physical conditioning you don't know what you are talking about. Physical conditioning to me can have a variety of meanings. Anyone that puts actual time in towards the practice of a Martial Art is physcially conditioning themselves.

I do realize that for optimum performance, one should have a top level of conditioning, it reflects in your ability to defend yourself and it is just a healthy way to live (as long as it is not overboard). But sometimes in life one cannot or will not want to maintain the hightest of levels of combat fitness. Sometimes injury's or other life cirrcumstances come about and make it almost impossible to workout on a regular basis. If combat, using MMA as an example, is not about conditioning, then why do they for the most part work on strictly that allot the time (at least this is what I see when I watch UFC Revealed, or TUF). GSP and Silva, from what I saw when they profiled them worked allot on the skills, wrestling, boxing, kicking etc. more so when I watched them, guys like Sean Sherk, Wanderlia Silva, concentrated more so on conditioning when I watched their profiles. On TUF, they spar of course, but most of it is combat conditioning and them learning from the experts on the show that are there to teach them. I don't see much (in regards to standup fighting) in the area of them refining their skills, making themselves tighter more skillful strikers, able to set up the others guys, instead of just relying on toughness and trading shots with their opponent. I know that MMA stand up is different than strict boxing due to the fact that one can be taken down ala wrestling style, but when you watch good boxers on HBO, even with the larger gloves on, there is such a great difference (speed, accuracy, set ups, timing) when they strike one another than when most of the MMA guys strike, for the most part anyways in my observations.

IMO skill in what you are doing is just as important as the conditioning aspect, even more important later on in life when you can't work out as much. IMO WC, which is based more so on skill rather than physical attributes like speed or strength, fit's this bill as it teaches us a high level skill. Gaining those skills thru the proper process is the hard part, but I've always believed thru my own experience and that of others, that when you gain the skills, it is easier to maintain them than it was to gain them. I've seen guys that are slowly getting out of shape, get better and better at their ability to use WC realistically (again we are not talking about fighting in a ring or octagon, against another that has time to work on a strategy to defeat you), to me this is due to their understanding of what they are trying to achieve increasing.

Just some thoughts on the matter:)

Good posts presented so far:)

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

If combat, using MMA as an example, is not about conditioning, then why do they for the most part work on strictly that allot the time (at least this is what I see when I watch UFC Revealed, or TUF). GSP and Silva, from what I saw when they profiled them worked allot on the skills, wrestling, boxing, kicking etc. more so when I watched them, guys like Sean Sherk, Wanderlia Silva, concentrated more so on conditioning when I watched their profiles. On TUF, they spar of course, but most of it is combat conditioning...

Don't base things on a TV show or highlights, the show what they thing the "common joe" wants to see.
It looks cool to see these guys in tip top conditoning and how they get there.
These shows are not MA "instructionals".

As for the rest of your post, I will get back to you when I have more time, its a very good post and topic.

[sihing]

Don't base things on a TV show or highlights, the show what they thing the "common joe" wants to see.
It looks cool to see these guys in tip top conditoning and how they get there.
These shows are not MA "instructionals".

As for the rest of your post, I will get back to you when I have more time, its a very good post and topic.

That's quite possible, that they are showing us what they think we want to see. In contrast, 24/7 highlighted the recent De La Hoya vs Manny P fight, and in that most of what I saw was them refining their tools. Yes they did road work and conditioning of their bodies to prepare for the longest possible fight, but most of the stuff I saw was in regards to tightening up their already high level skills, and which is guided by the specific strategy they have for the opponent they will meet.

James

[couch]

But sometimes in life one cannot or will not want to maintain the hightest of levels of combat fitness. Sometimes injury's or other life cirrcumstances come about and make it almost impossible to workout on a regular basis.

James

This resonates with me. I've got two little ones, a small business to run and have to help my wife make the household run somewhat smoothly.

When I train WC, I want it to be fun, functional and contain certain elements of conditioning. I run once a week and try to get some cardio in here and there - but that doesn't always happen.

Best,
K

[sihing]

This resonates with me. I've got two little ones, a small business to run and have to help my wife make the household run somewhat smoothly.

When I train WC, I want it to be fun, functional and contain certain elements of conditioning. I run once a week and try to get some cardio in here and there - but that doesn't always happen.

Best,
K

Yup, life can get pretty busy, that's why I try to keep it as simple as possible.

I think it is fair to say that there are different levels of functionality, different contexts of funtionality, and the such. Most of us here are not competing on any signifigant level, so our needs are different, but people sometimes confuse the two, their real wants and needs, with those spouted out to us from the media. The chances of me having a confrontation with a top notch fighter is nil to zero, I don't fight at the drop of the hat anyways, as this proves nothing, even though there have been situations recently that could have warranted it due to my work envirnonment.

For me when I decided to start some cardio work, I said to myself it might as well be in the area of my expertise, so I do bag work 3X a week, most just punching stuff, but it is a good workout and keeps the love handles in check, :o. Like you said, it's all about havin some fun, getting some functionality out of it, and enjoying the process and makin friends. We can't take this stuff too seriously.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's quite possible, that they are showing us what they think we want to see. In contrast, 24/7 highlighted the recent De La Hoya vs Manny P fight, and in that most of what I saw was them refining their tools. Yes they did road work and conditioning of their bodies to prepare for the longest possible fight, but most of the stuff I saw was in regards to tightening up their already high level skills, and which is guided by the specific strategy they have for the opponent they will meet.

James

Boxing fans wanna see this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This resonates with me. I've got two little ones, a small business to run and have to help my wife make the household run somewhat smoothly.

When I train WC, I want it to be fun, functional and contain certain elements of conditioning. I run once a week and try to get some cardio in here and there - but that doesn't always happen.

Best,
K

Holy crap dude, you're me !
My little ones, Sofia 5 and Marisa 15 months, keep me very busy.
I run a small size business ( ASME welding and fabrication) and have to help my wife at home since she gets back about 6PM.
I wake up every morning at 5AM to workout so, yeah, it better be fun !!

[sanjuro_ronin]

We can't take this stuff too seriously.

James

There are cycles, sometimes we MUST be serious so that other times we can have fun.

[Knifefighter]

One reason for this thread is that fact that in the past I have stated that I like what I practice because I know that I don't have to be in tip top shape to make it work, it works all on it's own because it is a high quality art that teaches good basic combat principles and techniques

You would be just as effective as a fighter if you were not in tip-top shape and were a boxer, MMA guy, BJJ, wrestler, etc.

If anything, once you have trained for competition and then gotten out of shape, you will end up as a better fighter than the guy who never trained for competitions and ends up equally out of shape.



If combat, using MMA as an example, is not about conditioning, then why do they for the most part work on strictly that allot the time (at least this is what I see when I watch UFC Revealed, or TUF). GSP and Silva, from what I saw when they profiled them worked allot on the skills, wrestling, boxing, kicking etc. more so when I watched them, guys like Sean Sherk, Wanderlia Silva, concentrated more so on conditioning when I watched their profiles.
Some guys work more on conditioning and some guys work more on skill. Each is important and each can be the determining factor. That being said, don't fool yourself into thinking the conditioning guys you see don't also have skill.



IMO WC, which is based more so on skill rather than physical attributes like speed or strength, fit's this bill as it teaches us a high level skill.

WC teaches no higher skill level than BJJ, boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, etc.


I've seen guys that are slowly getting out of shape, get better and better at their ability to use WC realistically (again we are not talking about fighting in a ring or octagon, against another that has time to work on a strategy to defeat you), to me this is due to their understanding of what they are trying to achieve increasing.

Please don't speak of realistic in realms that you have never experienced. Getting your face smashed in is realistic whether it happens on the street or in a ring.

And LOL @ not being able to beat someone in a ring where he has time to work on a strategy (as do you) and thinking you can beat some guy on the street who can do anything from shanking you with his blade to throwing gasoline on you and lighting a match to it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One reason for this thread is that fact that in the past I have stated that I like what I practice because I know that I don't have to be in tip top shape to make it work, it works all on it's own because it is a high quality art that teaches good basic combat principles and techniques (good fast stable footwork, powerful strikes, ability to adapt and change on the fly, good strategy) as compared to learning nothing at all; only to have others say in response something along the lines that if you think you can fight without physical conditioning you don't know what you are talking about. Physical conditioning to me can have a variety of meanings. Anyone that puts actual time in towards the practice of a Martial Art is physcially conditioning themselves.

Tip top shape...
Well, even Pro fighters don't walk around in peak shape, though their everyday is much better than "our" Tip top.
I don't think that one systems is any better than another in terms of being used while not in "peak performance mode" and that charateristic you mention:
(good fast stable footwork, powerful strikes, ability to adapt and change on the fly, good strategy),
Are ones that every system strives for.
We do have to realize that fighting shape doesn't equal HEALTHY, there is nothing healthy about fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've seen guys that are slowly getting out of shape, get better and better at their ability to use WC realistically (again we are not talking about fighting in a ring or octagon, against another that has time to work on a strategy to defeat you), to me this is due to their understanding of what they are trying to achieve increasing.

Sometimes when the power of youth and "shape" aren't there, one is forced to rely on technique and as such, many times people do get better.

[sihing]

Tip top shape...
Well, even Pro fighters don't walk around in peak shape, though their everyday is much better than "our" Tip top.
I don't think that one systems is any better than another in terms of being used while not in "peak performance mode" and that charateristic you mention:
(good fast stable footwork, powerful strikes, ability to adapt and change on the fly, good strategy),
Are ones that every system strives for.
We do have to realize that fighting shape doesn't equal HEALTHY, there is nothing healthy about fighting.

You know what I find interesting, is that Pro boxers, get into shape for a fight, then stop training after that (I could be wrong, but I remember Duran and other fighters in the past doing this). It seems the MMA guys continue to workout, help other figthers and the such all the time. I find this part of the sport to be a good example of people helping people.

I think all stand up systems strive for those qualities, but do they teach that? Does Karate as a general art form, teach that, or does it teach it's own ideas of how to fight, and totally changes what someone would do naturally, instead of just improving the natural fighting instinct that someone may have? IMO not all arts, including the various WC lineages, are equal or the same in that manner, some are more functional in just what they are trying to teach one, as compared to other methods. My first WC training system taught me not to fighting in a natural form, but to adhere to a strict degree to what it taught (strict Man/Wu sau guard, strict stance formation, strict strategy about lining up with the opponent, strict concept of facing and positioning with the opponent). Now I realize that I was being forced to try to make the art appear (tan da, pak da, t-step and kick, bla bla bla..) when I was sparring rather than just letting the training effect my natural movements.

Today, the training is more about developing a particular structure, body mechanic and delivery system, all to be used when it is needed, only for the time it is needed, without having to adhere to it at all time. Not being a slave to the system, but using it for your own needs.

My goal is to practice perfect form as much as I can during training, but realize that when the sh!t hits the fan, that more than likely what comes out will be far less than perfect. But something learned that is simple, direct and efficient backed up by a solid body structure/mechanic, is better than nothing at all. Improvement is improvement, and is relative to who you are using it against. What works against a scrub, probably won't against a pro, but the odds of meeting up with a pro are nil to zero.

Hitting the bag, working on my drills and playing chi sau can be a good workout. Taking things to the extreme is always dangerous, some do that, and then they burn out or let it take them out for life. A healthy life is a life of balance and moderation in everything we do, all with the motivation of achieving joy and harmony with the universe as a whole.


James

[anerlich]

I've seen guys that are slowly getting out of shape, get better and better at their ability to use WC realistically (again we are not talking about fighting in a ring or octagon, against another that has time to work on a strategy to defeat you), to me this is due to their understanding of what they are trying to achieve increasing.

There was a a story in the local paper here recently about an flyweight ex-boxer in his late 70s who knocked out one of two debt collectors who were harassing a female acquaintance.

"Mr King, who has a weak heart, is almost blind in one eye and was diagnosed with leukemia four years ago, said the fallen man's co-worker then repeatedly punched him in the stomach, but his fist bounced off his rock-hard abdominal muscles. He said the man took off down the driveway."

Just in case you thought only arts like WC continue to work as you get older, or that you necessarily have to turn soft and fat as you age.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/granddad-kod-repo-man/2008/11/29/1227491893024.html

If you're concerned about survival into old age, you're several thousand times more likely to die from lifestyle related heart disease than as a result of violent crime according ot the CDC. So you might be better off working on fitness than technique as you age.

[Knifefighter]

Does Karate as a general art form, teach that, or does it teach it's own ideas of how to fight, and totally changes what someone would do naturally, instead of just improving the natural fighting instinct that someone may have?

I'm not sure who is brainwashing you, but WC and any of its variations are far from what someone would do naturally. All you have to do is look at a couple of untrained guys in a school yard fight to see their movements are nothing like WC.

If you are looking for a style that teaches a more natural movement, something like Hung Ga would much better fit that bill.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

If you are looking for a style that teaches a more natural movement

Yay ZiRanMen! :)

[couch]

Holy crap dude, you're me !
My little ones, Sofia 5 and Marisa 15 months, keep me very busy.
I run a small size business ( ASME welding and fabrication) and have to help my wife at home since she gets back about 6PM.
I wake up every morning at 5AM to workout so, yeah, it better be fun !!

Ah! I knew there was a reason I liked ya...not just for you being a Canuck!

I have a 2.5 year old and a 1 year old. :)

[sihing]

I'm not sure who is brainwashing you, but WC and any of its variations are far from what someone would do naturally. All you have to do is look at a couple of untrained guys in a school yard fight to see their movements are nothing like WC.

If you are looking for a style that teaches a more natural movement, something like Hung Ga would much better fit that bill.

Once again Dale you misunderstand what I've wrote. IMO with WC, what it teaches one is mostly unnatural. People don't walk around all day with their elbows attached to their centerlines. Most people utilize muscles to lift objects and the such, instead of utilizing proper mechanics to optimize their strengths and power.
What I meant by my post was that after training in something like WC, one will see an effect on their natural movement. What was once uncoordinated, will become more focused, tightened up, with all parts of the body working together. What was once lacking in power due to utilization of the improper mechanics (and please don't tell me proper body mechanics doesn't play a role in power generation in ones strikes), will be more powerful because one learns to use the body and legs as one unit, all within a split second to generate some quality force in strikes. What was once a random swing towards someone's head will be more accurate because one will learn to attack a area no larger than your fist, to penetrate the smallest of defences and to react quickly when something goes wrong. None of this is a guarantee of success, but it all helps in winning a confrontation, and after some practice comes out naturally. Pretty well nothing in life is natural. We are not born knowing how to walk, how to talk, how to use our limbs, how to throw a ball, or shoot some hoops. We have to learn most everything from some source when it comes to things physical. WC enhances our attributes, body mechanics and structures in a specific way, so that one has a better chance of success in confrontations. This is the idea behind all the Martial Arts, correct? If not then why practice anything.

IMO, you don't believe WC has any benefit towards combat efficiency, not just that fact that lots of practitioners don't practice in a realistic way. In your mind WC sucks. That's okay, as we all have different opinions about a variety of things, that's what makes us a diverse species.

James

[Liddel]

If you're training what ever style you do in a functional way, wouldnt you be training technique and physical prowess in unisen ?

I say this from the point of view that fighting is practically one of the most exhausting physical things one can engage in...even if you are sparring at a lower intensity but for longer.

If you focus on tech in sparring like i have against friends of different styles, meaning how to strategically approach a style with my VT, my fitness is actually going to bennifit because im actually doing it, the task of fighting...cardio is integral.

At the other end of the spectrum, IMO even when doing the forms which is bout 98% technique realted your still training dexterity/mobility etc so physicallity comes in there to all be it less intense....

On a related note, im 28 and only semi fit as ive cut down training because of my lifestyle, but i notice that regardless of constant training.... the guys i know in thier late 30's early 40's are actually stronger than when they were in thier 20's....again regardless of how much they train... it could be the culmination of many years experience but.....

Which begs the question....

When is a mans hypothetical physical peak i wonder...Dale this is your area isnt it ?

Curious
DREW

[bennyvt]

cardio about 35 and strengtr about 18 to 25. I never trained for comp but i trained to defend myself. I used to go to the tuffest bar and had to stop from getting smashed. I have since learnt the art of dont go there it works well. But i trained about 10 hours a day and really hard. Also knew a guy that had a guy getting out of jail to kill him. Dam he trained hard. Smashed the guy who then killed someone a week later. Training can be hard without going in competitions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which begs the question....

When is a mans hypothetical physical peak i wonder...Dale this is your area isnt it ?

Curious
DREW

There is no real peak age for anything, but typically, based on what we see at the elite levels of sport performance:
Flexability - teens, early 20's at the most
Speed - Mid 20's.
Endurance- late 20's to early 30's
Strength - 30's
Chi blasts - 109

[Wayfaring]

There is no real peak age for anything, but typically, based on what we see at the elite levels of sport performance:
Flexability - teens, early 20's at the most
Speed - Mid 20's.
Endurance- late 20's to early 30's
Strength - 30's
Chi blasts - 109

Intelligence on Internet - 15

[sanjuro_ronin]

Intelligence on Internet - 15

Sexy nudes on the net - Priceless.
:p