Dai nim tao

[rochester]

Is this the pien san portion of Lee Shing/Austin Goh wing chun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo4afixOv-Q

[k gledhill]

looks more like 'no' idea :D nice music though

[bakxierboxer]

looks more like 'no' idea :D nice music though

I dunno.... was that hip wiggling anything "significant"?
(maybe the music "helped" him?)

[k gledhill]

you saw that too huh ;) "..if you cant control yourself, how do you expect to control others ? "

[couch]

Salsa, salsa.

And for the record, there are no 'Big Ideas' in WC. Only small ones. LOL

[kung fu fighter]

Is this the pien san portion of Lee Shing/Austin Goh wing chun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo4afixOv-Q


looks like it's just a part of it.

[bakxierboxer]

you saw that too huh ;) "..if you cant control yourself, how do you expect to control others ? "

Enh!
"Hip wiggling" is put to its best effect with cooperative partners.
(although I've heard it said that there are some forms of "encouragement"
that can be used before-play........)

[kung fu fighter]

Here is austin Goh performing part of their Dai Lim Tao http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujeuvlcpbx0

[bakxierboxer]

Here is austin Goh performing part of their Dai Lim Tao http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujeuvlcpbx0

Hmmmmm....... NO "wiggle"!

[punchdrunk]

anyone know whys its called big idea? Or how it relates to their curriculum? Just curious I'm not being critical.

[k gledhill]

$ ;) all about pounds, shillings and pence. hey you ! yeah .. whannna see the 'BIG' idea ? I have a dvd series , with 100's of moves :D all from the BIG idea, not that smalllll one :D

[LSWCTN1]

from the little i know of Lee Shing wc the Dai Nim Tao is from the Fung Family Gulao lineage - i believe that it is a sort of collect of san sik movements?

possibly the best people to hear from would be Jim Roselando or Spencer Devine on this if you wanted to know more

[LoneTiger108]

possibly the best people to hear from would be Jim Roselando or Spencer Devine on this if you wanted to know more

I wouldn't include me! :eek:

What I know about this subject is pretty minimal compared to students of Uncles Sifu Goh and Sifu Joe Lee.

The opening set is definately Lee Shing Family though, if that helps at all...

[imperialtaichi]

From the 22 San Sau I learnt from Master Leung there is one move called Siu Nim Tau and one Dai Nim Tau. There wasn't a specific form called Dai Nim Tau.

[t_niehoff]

anyone know whys its called big idea? Or how it relates to their curriculum? Just curious I'm not being critical.

I can't say (and I doubt anyone else can) why Lee Shing named things as he did.

However, I'll give you my perspective -- take it fwiw. I learned DNT not as a form or routine, but as a yau dim (literally an "important point", i.e., one of the major things you will necessarily be doing). The "idea" of WCK (from SNT) is to control, so that you can control the opponent while striking. "Little idea" is a smaller version/expression of control, i.e., bridge control. "Big idea" is a larger version/expression of control, i.e., body control. (The arms are small, the body is large).

[couch]

The "idea" of WCK (from SNT) is to control, so that you can control the opponent while striking. "Little idea" is a smaller version/expression of control, i.e., bridge control. "Big idea" is a larger version/expression of control, i.e., body control. (The arms are small, the body is large).

Interesting take on the way you view your form. Thanks for that!

[punchdrunk]

thanx for the answer, I'll have to view the clip again with that in mind.

[k gledhill]

Phineas T. Barnum..now what did he say again....?:D

[imperialtaichi]

Hi John,

just wondering if this was the 22 san sau that you learnt from master Leung http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XMTU2Njc4NDA=.html

thanks
Navin

Hello Navin,

Yep, that's the one. The guy in the video learnt it from Master Leung as well.

When Master leung was watching this video, he said "this is not how to do it!"

Then he said "I suppose you can't show the real stuff on video."

This video is not doing the Kulo22 justice. The proper KL22 is way cooler than this.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

The "idea" of WCK (from SNT) is to control, so that you can control the opponent while striking. "Little idea" is a smaller version/expression of control, i.e., bridge control. "Big idea" is a larger version/expression of control, i.e., body control. (The arms are small, the body is large).

Interesting.

Master Leung often write Siu Nim Tau as "Little Sticky" and Dai Nim Tau as "Big Sticky". The pronounciation "Nim" in cantonese can mean "idea" or "stick", just slightly different tone.

Cheers,
John

[rochester]

Hello Navin,

Yep, that's the one. The guy in the video learnt it from Master Leung as well.

When Master leung was watching this video, he said "this is not how to do it!"

Then he said "I suppose you can't show the real stuff on video."

This video is not doing the Kulo22 justice. The proper KL22 is way cooler than this.

Cheers,
John

Once, just once, I'd like to see the "real" Kulo stuff...must be pretty amazing!

[t_niehoff]

Once, just once, I'd like to see the "real" Kulo stuff...must be pretty amazing!

"Real" stuff? Everyone in WCK has the "real stuff". We all have the movements of WCK. Lineage, branch, style, etc. is unimportant. Don't confuse curriculum with the subject matter. Lineage, branch, style are all just different "textbooks" but the subject matter (WCK) is the same.

[k gledhill]

not so fast there T :D

[Shadow_warrior8]

Once, just once, I'd like to see the "real" Kulo stuff...must be pretty amazing!


Isnt this Kulo Wingchun?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeAxb7aqsfE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxh5bMKX7IQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvY5yV6ugs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0VxUeiLFMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYhJn9OfeBs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qlfeMH2oBg

Seems pretty real to me

[LoneTiger108]

I can't say (and I doubt anyone else can) why Lee Shing named things as he did.

You're probably right T.

[imperialtaichi]

Lineage, branch, style are all just different "textbooks" but the subject matter (WCK) is the same.

Ultimately true....

But having a great "textbook" to begin wiith does make a big difference.

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
Lineage, branch, style are all just different "textbooks" but the subject matter (WCK) is the same.





Ultimately true....

But having a great "textbook" to begin wiith does make a big difference.

Cheers,
John

The principle could be similar, however the implementation can be way different.

It is certainly not just different text books.


It certainly cannot be lump together and make fuzzy.


Every Details means something...

[imperialtaichi]

Once, just once, I'd like to see the "real" Kulo stuff...must be pretty amazing!

The Kulo22 while impressive, it is not some profound MA that enlightens you or give you some super-power. It is just practical effective street fighting techniques that you can use once it is shown to you. The most common comment when we were shown a technique is "Danm! Why don't I think of that!"

Hence the reluctant to show them on video; If you were shown some techniques in TaiChi Xingyi Bagua etc it is still going to take you years of training with a teacher to pull it off. Kulo techniques you just have to be shown on video and you can use it in your next fight.

Cheers,
John

[Shadow_warrior8]

Wingchun was meant to be simple and effective as a fighting art.

Kulo or any other lineage.

People, politics, lineages. EGO etc..... complicate things

"Yip Man has said that with Kung Fu, the simpler, the better, Yip Man tried to further simplify Wing Chun but was unsuccessful. If Wing Chun can be further simplified without losing skill, it will take the art to a higher level!"

Grandmaster Ip Chun http://www.geocities.com/wingchun_sg/

Sigung Ip Chun also said, You play kungfu, not kungfu play you. Translate that in cantonese....heh heh...

[rochester]

The Kulo22 while impressive, it is not some profound MA that enlightens you or give you some super-power. It is just practical effective street fighting techniques that you can use once it is shown to you. The most common comment when we were shown a technique is "Danm! Why don't I think of that!"

Hence the reluctant to show them on video; If you were shown some techniques in TaiChi Xingyi Bagua etc it is still going to take you years of training with a teacher to pull it off. Kulo techniques you just have to be shown on video and you can use it in your next fight.

Cheers,
John

Obviously, I was being sarcastic and Terence is correct. The proliferation of videos in recent years showing non-Yip Man versions of wing chun all show a very similar curriculum in my opinion. What I don't understand is why the "rice bowl protectors" always have to come out and discount what's being shown, rather than openly discussing their version of wing chun and their reason for doing things so we can all learn and grow. Why would anyone make a video of their art, as in the Kulo video, and show crappy techniques? If you're reluctant to show effective techniques on video then why make one in the first place.

Can you share with us one of the practical Kulo techniques, imperialtaichi, that will make us say "****, wish we'd thought of that"!

[Jim Roselando]

Punchdrunk wrote:

anyone know whys its called big idea? Or how it relates to their curriculum? Just curious

***

Siu Li & Dai Lin are the skills Leung Jan kept from his original Siu Lin Tao set that he felt were the most important keys of the entire set. He kept these two as the basics of his 12 Fist Side Body system.

The reason they are called Small Training Set & Big Training Set is even more SIMPLE!

They are two short sequences. Typical San Sao type stuff. Small Set has less actions/concepts than the Big Set. Hence why he called it: Small & Big or a Few Basics and Few More Basics!

As for the Lee Shing Dai Nim Tao set? Who knows why he called it that. Its just his Side Body stuff linked in a longer set rather than broken down. Many sifu's link the moves together. It doesn't matter if they are linked or broken down IMO. One Big Older Siu Lin Tau or 3 Form platform or 12 Fist San Sik. Content is all pretty much the same stuff. The CORE difference found in all these platforms is the arts conditioning and dynamics 99% of the time....

Fung Chun Sifu demo's the Siu Lin & Dai Lin at his sons school opening. The guy in the army pants announcing that Fung Sifu would be performing a few moves is Leung Ting Sifu. Shadow Warrior posted this earlier but here it is again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM


I have to run! Hope this helps!


Merry Xmas Everyone!


Back to LURK mode!


:)

[k gledhill]

You're probably right T.

I can :D but Must resist out of respect for those who follow the er.. flag waving forms ;)

[kung fu fighter]

Obviously, I was being sarcastic and Terence is correct. The proliferation of videos in recent years showing non-Yip Man versions of wing chun all show a very similar curriculum in my opinion. What I don't understand is why the "rice bowl protectors" always have to come out and discount what's being shown, rather than openly discussing their version of wing chun and their reason for doing things so we can all learn and grow. Why would anyone make a video of their art, as in the Kulo video, and show crappy techniques? If you're reluctant to show effective techniques on video then why make one in the first place.
!

I completely agree, I am curious who else on here feels the same way?

[chusauli]

Jim Roselando is right on the money about the Gu Lao WCK versions!

Having studied many branches of WCK, they almost all have the same elements, perhaps juxtaposed differently.

Teaching curriculums vary from teacher to teacher. For example, David Peterson and Gary Lam both studied under WSL, but they have a different curriculum and teaching format.

Its all WCK.

[k gledhill]

But they share a common 'idea' , no idea means no sharing , even with your students :D
You end up doing a wiggling dance using arm shapes broken up with a bout of rousing banner waving.:D

[LoneTiger108]

I can :D but Must resist out of respect for those who follow the er.. flag waving forms ;)

:D

Why not share? I'm sure you'll say something I haven't heard before (as usual) and you write so well of your own Sifus interpretations and concepts.

Maybe what you know can enlighten the rest of us...

[punchdrunk]

Jim Roselando, thank you for your very kind answer.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Da Nian Tou (big idea): This kind of Kung-fu is mainly applied to your attack or defense onto the middle part and the upper of your opponent's body. You can send out your forces with your hitting in clapping your hands inside or outside. You can also clap your hands at first layer. Nei, the second or the third. Your forearms will be the first layer, while the elbows and the arms, the second and the third respectively. The requirement is the same as stated above when you are practicing Tan Shou (spreading hands).
You should strike your opponent onto the center of his eyebrows as well as his nose and eyes by applying the principle in attacking midline of your own Zheng Zhang (central vertical palm).

Xiao Nian Tou (small idea): Practicing your attack or defense with your marked fists onto the middle part and the lower of your opponent's body, you can hit him on his oxter, belly and rids by making use of the middle stance of your body.

Bang Shou (binding your hands): When you are guarding against the attacks sent by your opponent onto the middle part and the lower of your body, you can send out your forces sideward, forward, upwards, backward or downward at some varions angles. You can force your opponent's gravity center sidelong, and change your outer hand into an inner in either a little or more. You can press your opponent's elbows and armpit by applying an action in moving along a small arc, stirring up his Qiao Gan (bridge pole), mainly attacking his throat and chin in shoveling his neck.

Chou Di Chui (striking your opponent under your sleeve): You should mainly attack the center of your opponent's chest where his heart is located around. The sleeves of the ancient dress in China had been relatively large, so it's hard for your opponent to judge the strike you are sending under your sleeve hiding your hands or fists in mystery.

Lan Qiao (barring bridge): You should block the attack made by your opponent from the middle way and the upper, in closing and pressing his Qiao Shou (dridge hand).You can either attack his neck, nose or chest bu using the hand method in both attacking and defendingl.

Note: You can lessen the area being attacked, counteract your opponent’s strength, strengthen your striking power and get advantaged position by Zhuan Ma (changing your horse-riding stance), Zhu_an Yao (turning your waist), or Chu Jian (making your shoulders outward)

http://en.shaolingongfu.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=35

This is the english translation of some parts of wingchun books ordered from here
http://www.tinwopp.com/
Enjoy

[k gledhill]

:D

Why not share? I'm sure you'll say something I haven't heard before (as usual) and you write so well of your own Sifus interpretations and concepts.

Maybe what you know can enlighten the rest of us...

Your cup is full.... first you must empty it.

[LoneTiger108]

Your cup is full.... first you must empty it.

Apparently, my cup isn't as FULL as your own!! Well, it is today. Being Boxing Day my cup is forever full I'm afraid! :D

What I do know is that the so-called 'form' in the Lee Shing Family was normally referred to as a 'Sup Yee Sik' 12 Set drill. The reference to 'Dai Lim Tao' comes from one of the first sets and was 'used' because...??!!

According to Uncle Joseph Lee;

"The Form consists of the following 12 Handsets;

* Siu Lim Tao
* Dai Lim Tao
* Sam Jheen Choi (Three finger jab)
* Biu Choi (Charging/Thrusting punch)
* Sap Jee Choi (Reverse meridian/Cross hand punch)
* Dip Cheung (Double Butterfly Palm). Alternating low palm strikes.
* Lan Kiu (Bar Arm Bridge)
* Teet Jee Chum Kiu (Iron Finger Sinking bridge). Back fist flowing into low strike followed by low palm strike.
* Tang Ma Biu Jee (Rising thrusting finger with phoenix eye)
* Hok Bong (Crane bong). Level Bong Sau, moving into side body with simultaneous attack
* Wan Wan Yeu (Life after Death). Using the waist to lean back to avoid strikes detected late, then using the return waist power in the hand strike
* Fook Fu (Subduing the Tiger). Mixture b/w Gan and Fak Sau with phoenix eye."

Taken from his website here http://www.josephleewingchun.com/PienSanWingChun.jsp

Personally, I have yet to see anyone actually demo these 12 sets in a complete form, let alone explain where each one originates from or what it's for. That is except for Uncle Lee in his DVD and my own Sifu, 'on a good day!'

The order sometimes changes from family to family and things are added or taken away. The only people who have any idea of what these sets are about are Lee Shings eldest students I believe, or anyone from Kulo or Side Body systems. I have heard that it originates directly from Leung Jan himself, whist he taught the 'rich merchants' during his 'retirement'. ****! We teach all this stuff in a similar fashion at The Yum Yeurng Academy, and it isn't all that special imo. Just a different approach to teaching, for that 'quick fix' I think.

So Kevin, how close were/are you to Lee Shing Family??

FWIW I did train all these sets individually, without knowing they were part of a 'form'. One of my favourite explanations I heard about why Lee Shing 'banned' students from talking about this stuff was because it "made your Martial Arts lazy!" and "everyone will want to learn it because it's so easy!" and might miss the importance of SLT. It would have also gone directly against Ip Mans teachings as he didn't know it (apparently) or never taught it (if he did know it!).

An example, if I was to 'prove' that your Chun Kuen was useless if I used "x" method, you would never drill your fist work as hard as you will do if you 'think' it's invincible!!

Better go. The beers having a cloudy effect on my typing and my teacher is now probably getting some 'burnt ears' which is never good! I shouldn'y have said anything myself, but hey, it is Christmas!!

Has anyone else really had any first-hand experience of this 'form' or any sets within it that can explain a little more than I can? Uncle Goh knows this form too and some of his guys have trained it for years.

My knowledge is very limited I'm afraid...

MERRY CRIMBO ANYWAY!! & ALL THE BEST FOR 2009!

[kung fu fighter]

Apparently, my cup isn't as FULL as your own!! Well, it is today. Being Boxing Day my cup is forever full I'm afraid! :D

What I do know is that the so-called 'form' in the Lee Shing Family was normally referred to as a 'Sup Yee Sik' 12 Set drill. The reference to 'Dai Lim Tao' comes from one of the first sets and was 'used' because...??!!

According to Uncle Joseph Lee;

"The Form consists of the following 12 Handsets;

* Siu Lim Tao
* Dai Lim Tao
* Sam Jheen Choi (Three finger jab)
* Biu Choi (Charging/Thrusting punch)
* Sap Jee Choi (Reverse meridian/Cross hand punch)
* Dip Cheung (Double Butterfly Palm). Alternating low palm strikes.
* Lan Kiu (Bar Arm Bridge)
* Teet Jee Chum Kiu (Iron Finger Sinking bridge). Back fist flowing into low strike followed by low palm strike.
* Tang Ma Biu Jee (Rising thrusting finger with phoenix eye)
* Hok Bong (Crane bong). Level Bong Sau, moving into side body with simultaneous attack
* Wan Wan Yeu (Life after Death). Using the waist to lean back to avoid strikes detected late, then using the return waist power in the hand strike
* Fook Fu (Subduing the Tiger). Mixture b/w Gan and Fak Sau with phoenix eye."

Taken from his website here http://www.josephleewingchun.com/PienSanWingChun.jsp

Personally, I have yet to see anyone actually demo these 12 sets in a complete form, let alone explain where each one originates from or what it's for. That is except for Uncle Lee in his DVD and my own Sifu, 'on a good day!'

The order sometimes changes from family to family and things are added or taken away. The only people who have any idea of what these sets are about are Lee Shings eldest students I believe, or anyone from Kulo or Side Body systems. I have heard that it originates directly from Leung Jan himself, whist he taught the 'rich merchants' during his 'retirement'. ****! We teach all this stuff in a similar fashion at The Yum Yeurng Academy, and it isn't all that special imo. Just a different approach to teaching, for that 'quick fix' I think.

So Kevin, how close were/are you to Lee Shing Family??

FWIW I did train all these sets individually, without knowing they were part of a 'form'. One of my favourite explanations I heard about why Lee Shing 'banned' students from talking about this stuff was because it "made your Martial Arts lazy!" and "everyone will want to learn it because it's so easy!" and might miss the importance of SLT. It would have also gone directly against Ip Mans teachings as he didn't know it (apparently) or never taught it (if he did know it!).

An example, if I was to 'prove' that your Chun Kuen was useless if I used "x" method, you would never drill your fist work as hard as you will do if you 'think' it's invincible!!

Better go. The beers having a cloudy effect on my typing and my teacher is now probably getting some 'burnt ears' which is never good! I shouldn'y have said anything myself, but hey, it is Christmas!!

Has anyone else really had any first-hand experience of this 'form' or any sets within it that can explain a little more than I can? Uncle Goh knows this form too and some of his guys have trained it for years.

My knowledge is very limited I'm afraid...

MERRY CRIMBO ANYWAY!! & ALL THE BEST FOR 2009!


Hi Spencer,

Just wondering if you could give a little more details of how Fook Fu is preformed as well as how it's applied? what's the concept behind this san sik from Dai lim tao?


Does your Uncle Lee have any explaination of the dai lim tao 12 san sik drills in his DVD?

feel free to pm me!

thanks
Navin

[k gledhill]

Apparently, my cup isn't as FULL as your own!! Well, it is today. Being Boxing Day my cup is forever full I'm afraid! :D

What I do know is that the so-called 'form' in the Lee Shing Family was normally referred to as a 'Sup Yee Sik' 12 Set drill. The reference to 'Dai Lim Tao' comes from one of the first sets and was 'used' because...??!!

According to Uncle Joseph Lee;

"The Form consists of the following 12 Handsets;

* Siu Lim Tao
* Dai Lim Tao
* Sam Jheen Choi (Three finger jab)
* Biu Choi (Charging/Thrusting punch)
* Sap Jee Choi (Reverse meridian/Cross hand punch)
* Dip Cheung (Double Butterfly Palm). Alternating low palm strikes.
* Lan Kiu (Bar Arm Bridge)
* Teet Jee Chum Kiu (Iron Finger Sinking bridge). Back fist flowing into low strike followed by low palm strike.
* Tang Ma Biu Jee (Rising thrusting finger with phoenix eye)
* Hok Bong (Crane bong). Level Bong Sau, moving into side body with simultaneous attack
* Wan Wan Yeu (Life after Death). Using the waist to lean back to avoid strikes detected late, then using the return waist power in the hand strike
* Fook Fu (Subduing the Tiger). Mixture b/w Gan and Fak Sau with phoenix eye."

Taken from his website here http://www.josephleewingchun.com/PienSanWingChun.jsp

Personally, I have yet to see anyone actually demo these 12 sets in a complete form, let alone explain where each one originates from or what it's for. That is except for Uncle Lee in his DVD and my own Sifu, 'on a good day!'

The order sometimes changes from family to family and things are added or taken away. The only people who have any idea of what these sets are about are Lee Shings eldest students I believe, or anyone from Kulo or Side Body systems. I have heard that it originates directly from Leung Jan himself, whist he taught the 'rich merchants' during his 'retirement'. ****! We teach all this stuff in a similar fashion at The Yum Yeurng Academy, and it isn't all that special imo. Just a different approach to teaching, for that 'quick fix' I think.

So Kevin, how close were/are you to Lee Shing Family??

FWIW I did train all these sets individually, without knowing they were part of a 'form'. One of my favourite explanations I heard about why Lee Shing 'banned' students from talking about this stuff was because it "made your Martial Arts lazy!" and "everyone will want to learn it because it's so easy!" and might miss the importance of SLT. It would have also gone directly against Ip Mans teachings as he didn't know it (apparently) or never taught it (if he did know it!).

An example, if I was to 'prove' that your Chun Kuen was useless if I used "x" method, you would never drill your fist work as hard as you will do if you 'think' it's invincible!!

Better go. The beers having a cloudy effect on my typing and my teacher is now probably getting some 'burnt ears' which is never good! I shouldn'y have said anything myself, but hey, it is Christmas!!

Has anyone else really had any first-hand experience of this 'form' or any sets within it that can explain a little more than I can? Uncle Goh knows this form too and some of his guys have trained it for years.

My knowledge is very limited I'm afraid...

MERRY CRIMBO ANYWAY!! & ALL THE BEST FOR 2009!

I emptied my cup of years training with a 'direct student ' of Yip Man....;) not easy trust me. Ive met other students of the same teacher,wsl, even though I can now decipher a common idea , its amazing how the personal explanations or 'truth' can differ when trying to explain the same idea. Its not by deception, its simply , imo, allowing the loose 'you can do this' to flow a little to freely. Or overindulge in you can do this move or this move etc...standing in one place , rather than attacking the students relentlessly over and over doing the same simple things...subtle shift ..I know I have done both now. Have you ?:D or are you still waving that flag ?

What your describing above ^ is a personal idea concocted from parts. There's a lot of it about ;... " flicking tan sao "," low soft bong" ...:D

thats not a cup thats a 'bowl' thats needs tipping over :)

You where asked not to talk about it perhaps because it would reveal certain truths to others ...it has.

I share nothing in common with you beyond names for arm shapes.

Happy new year !

[LoneTiger108]

I emptied my cup of years training with a 'direct student ' of Yip Man....;) not easy trust me.

It's funny how this 'saying' is so misinterpreted. Answer me this. When you emptied your cup, did you do so by drinking it or throwing it away?


What your describing above ^ is a personal idea concocted from parts. There's a lot of it about ;... " flicking tan sao "," low soft bong" ...:D

thats not a cup thats a 'bowl' thats needs tipping over :)

Your correct here, to some extent as the descriptions of the sets are obviously Uncle Lees interpretation, or reminder of what the posture 'looks like'. Personally, I feel that if you have no experience of this way of teaching, why should you be too critical? This 'bowl' you refer to is all in your mind!

We are all family, it's just a shame some feel they need to 'big up' their Sifu by putting others down.

The 12 set form is just that. A simple collection of methods. How each individual trains the set is where the knowledge is 'seen'. It all may have been a big secret back in the day, but it's so common today especially with the intro of Youtube and the Kulo (Gulao) families.


Just wondering if you could give a little more details of how Fook Fu is preformed as well as how it's applied? what's the concept behind this san sik from Dai lim tao?

Fook Fu? The 'taming/hidden Tiger'?!! Now THAT would be telling! :eek:


Does your Uncle Lee have any explaination of the dai lim tao 12 san sik drills in his DVD?

Not exactly. BUT some demos are definitely influenced from this hand set, especially with regards to the stepping applications and legwork. (that 'taming tiger thing!)

[k gledhill]

It's funny how this 'saying' is so misinterpreted. Answer me this. When you emptied your cup, did you do so by drinking it or throwing it away?



Your correct here, to some extent as the descriptions of the sets are obviously Uncle Lees interpretation, or reminder of what the posture 'looks like'. Personally, I feel that if you have no experience of this way of teaching, why should you be too critical? This 'bowl' you refer to is all in your mind!

We are all family, it's just a shame some feel they need to 'big up' their Sifu by putting others down.

The 12 set form is just that. A simple collection of methods. How each individual trains the set is where the knowledge is 'seen'. It all may have been a big secret back in the day, but it's so common today especially with the intro of Youtube and the Kulo (Gulao) families.



Fook Fu? The 'taming/hidden Tiger'?!! Now THAT would be telling! :eek:



Not exactly. BUT some demos are definitely influenced from this hand set, especially with regards to the stepping applications and legwork. (that 'taming tiger thing!)

tossed it like a sack of ****.... hiding behind your own , 'we just do it this way so do others' dont fly dude...;)

critical comes with knowledge of an idea and why some are traveling a circular path rather than destined to a goal... kind of like walking a circle waving a banner :D

your holding that 'bowl' tight....Desmond spencer has fresh soup for you , or tea , depending what vessel you bring.... :D

no video series to buy either or an outfit or mebership...no arse kissing the sifu required.

I have met several students of 'name' sifus who said exactly the same thing . They tossed 6-10 years of information and training in a heartbeat , simply because the information they now had was
superior ...and made whatever they and I did redundant to a 'FIGHTING' use , we all have , you too, a martial arts idea of blocking punching , chain punching etc... large forms Dai lim tao etc...useless without certain information to make it flow as an attack system.

If your idea is attack for a period of time longer than your opponent and you need techniques to allow this idea ...and I'm not referring to a head on chain punch blast down peoples centers :D...

an unthinking process at full speed with no hand-chasing off the line ...:)

[kung fu fighter]

Fook Fu? The 'taming/hidden Tiger'?!! Now THAT would be telling! :eek:

Not exactly. BUT some demos are definitely influenced from this hand set, especially with regards to the stepping applications and legwork. (that 'taming tiger thing!)

what's the stepping applications and legwork involved with fuk fu hand set?

is it circular stepping of how to turn around to face the attacker?

is the application of fuk fu hands applied like gan sau?

[LoneTiger108]

critical comes with knowledge of an idea and why some are traveling a circular path rather than destined to a goal... kind of like walking a circle waving a banner :D.

There you go again! You must have something against 'banner waving' or any cultural aspect of chinese arts, which Wing Chun is deeply rooted imho. Even though our methods are definitely different, I would still like to think the destination is the same.


your holding that 'bowl' tight....Desmond spencer has fresh soup for you , or tea , depending what vessel you bring.... :D.

Er... Maybe not. When you 'big up' your brothers, you should let them know 'who' you're yapping to Kev! I do, however, have little respect for bullies and 'hard men' and this reputation preceeds him. Maybe he would be better off meeting some of my brothers who aren't as shy as myself.

Obviously I'm all up for meeting Wing Chun family members, if they open their minds too as I would (and have!). If all they want to do is 'prove' how hard they are, they're missing the point of Wing Chun itself. I saw a similar misconception like this at SENi08!


large forms Dai lim tao etc...useless without certain information to make it flow as an attack system.

I agree to some extent. ALL the forms are useless without certain information. Shame that, but most of us are not even interested in 'knowing' what this information actually is, even if it's laid out in front of everyone to see! :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

1. what's the stepping applications and legwork involved with fuk fu hand set?

2. is it circular stepping of how to turn around to face the attacker?

3. is the application of fuk fu hands applied like gan sau?

Sorry for the delay on this one kff, but as I've said before, what I know of this Dai Nim Tao is very limited!

1. Fu Mei Gert is a common Martial Art method in other styles, and is found in DNT in a more relaxed, high stance way I believe. Designed to prise open the opponents stance and take his centre (of gravity)

2. A low sweep behind is the general idea, not particularly to face bu to bring down the opponent to the floor (for tiger mauling!)

3. I've seen variations including a gan 'kuen' (specifically forng ngan choi or phoenix eye) with a manipulating lower hand.

I hope this helps, but as I said, MANY more know this 'form' far better than I do. Research is one thing, being taught by Lee Shing himself is a totally different experience! And 'they' are still very much alive and teaching today.

From what I understand though, some will not even talk about it with 'outsiders' as it really is just a 'family thing' the Lee Shing students hold in remembrance. It wasn't something that Ip Man wanted to promote at all, and if you have looked into it you should know why that was...

[kung fu fighter]

3. I've seen variations including a gan 'kuen' (specifically forng ngan choi or phoenix eye) with a manipulating lower hand.

what's the manipulating lower hand doing? is it an under grabbing hand to control one of the attacker's bridge hand( tan sao grabbing from underneath your partner's bridge) while doing fung ngan choi with gan structure with the other hand to control the attacker's other hand?

How is the gan 'kuen' (specifically forng ngan choi or phoenix eye) with a manipulating lower hand done?

thanks
Navin

[LoneTiger108]

How is the gan 'kuen' (specifically forng ngan choi or phoenix eye) with a manipulating lower hand done?

Hey Navin! Quick response there!?

The PE has many 'ways' I believe. One would be dependent on your 'idea' of Gan Sau. If you believe the posture to be a combination of Tan and Fook sau, then the fook sau is holding the arm whilst the tan sau creates the phoenix eye. This can come at you from all directions, but in a simple way I use a left fook to control your left lead and bring it downwards, whap my right elbow up into your left one and 'screw' the pe into your neck/temple. All in a blink of an eye!!

Is this what you meant?? All from the outside-in to begin with.

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Navin! Quick response there!?

The PE has many 'ways' I believe. One would be dependent on your 'idea' of Gan Sau. If you believe the posture to be a combination of Tan and Fook sau, then the fook sau is holding the arm whilst the tan sau creates the phoenix eye. This can come at you from all directions, but in a simple way I use a left fook to control your left lead and bring it downwards, whap my right elbow up into your left one and 'screw' the pe into your neck/temple. All in a blink of an eye!!

Is this what you meant?? All from the outside-in to begin with.

Hey Spencer,


Are both of your arms on the outside of the attacker's bridge? or is one inside and one outside?

is the fook done like a lap with fingers pointiong forward or like the hook hand fook of chi sao?

not sure wha you mean by this "whap my right elbow up into your left one and 'screw' the pe into your neck/temple. All in a blink of an eye!!"

is this all done with juen (pivoting)?

What's the goal of fook fu? is it to cross the attacker's arms?

There is something i would like to ask you in private, what's your email address?


thanks
Navin

[k gledhill]

There you go again! You must have something against 'banner waving' or any cultural aspect of chinese arts, which Wing Chun is deeply rooted imho. Even though our methods are definitely different, I would still like to think the destination is the same.



Er... Maybe not. When you 'big up' your brothers, you should let them know 'who' you're yapping to Kev! I do, however, have little respect for bullies and 'hard men' and this reputation preceeds him. Maybe he would be better off meeting some of my brothers who aren't as shy as myself.

Obviously I'm all up for meeting Wing Chun family members, if they open their minds too as I would (and have!). If all they want to do is 'prove' how hard they are, they're missing the point of Wing Chun itself. I saw a similar misconception like this at SENi08!



I agree to some extent. ALL the forms are useless without certain information. Shame that, but most of us are not even interested in 'knowing' what this information actually is, even if it's laid out in front of everyone to see! :eek:


yapping to ? I take it back . Stay in your little well froggy . have a good kung fu life. bye

[LoneTiger108]

yapping to ? I take it back . Stay in your little well froggy . have a good kung fu life. bye

Back to the 'froggy' croaks again? Only seems like yesterday that you started on that one! :D Wake up Kevin! Your previous Sifu couldn't have scared you that badly. Surely!

Have a great life in whatever you choose to do, and remember if YOU are ever in London, why not come and meet me and my brothers, I'm sure you're not so disrespectful in real life.


Hey Spencer,


Are both of your arms on the outside of the attacker's bridge? or is one inside and one outside?

is the fook done like a lap with fingers pointiong forward or like the hook hand fook of chi sao?

not sure wha you mean by this "whap my right elbow up into your left one and 'screw' the pe into your neck/temple. All in a blink of an eye!!"

is this all done with juen (pivoting)?

What's the goal of fook fu? is it to cross the attacker's arms?

There is something i would like to ask you in private, what's your email address?


thanks
Navin

SO many questions!! You're asking the wrong person here Navin, but I'll be available on the email below this year if anyonw wants to talk privately.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello again,


A little more Dai Lin Tao info since this thread is still going!


The Dai Lin is actually the nickname for the set. It is just an extension of the Siu Lin basics so it is normally called:

"Dai" Siu Lin Tao

"Big" Small Training Set


See, the Siu Lin is the first of the 12 Fists. The "Dai" Siu Lin is the second of the 12. It is just two core basics san sao sequences. The "dai' siu lin just has more basics than siu lin. That is why LJ sifu called them: Small Training & Big Small Training.

Nothing more than basics kept from the Siu Lin Tao longer/traditional form.


Hope this helps!

[LoneTiger108]

See, the Siu Lin is the first of the 12 Fists. The "Dai" Siu Lin is the second of the 12. It is just two core basics san sao sequences. The "dai' siu lin just has more basics than siu lin. That is why LJ sifu called them: Small Training & Big Small Training.

Nothing more than basics kept from the Siu Lin Tao longer/traditional form.


Hope this helps!

Thanks for the input Jim! It's well needed here, as I can only speak from 'research' NOT tuition! ;)

You can clearly see your example in Uncle Gohs clip on Youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ujeuvlcpbx0

Although what I would add is, the 1st set introduces Pien San turning to the Huen Sau of SLT & the 2nd set introduces a Wu Sau to support the Saam Bai (3 prayer) set of SLT. Both are required to actually 'use' the SLT effectively as an attack imo. In other words, without the 12 methods, you're only ever guessing so you may as well create your own (as everyone outside this idea has already!)

I agree that the DNT is the name of just one set. But I still can't explain why Lee Shing used this phrase when teaching the 'form'. Others may be able to though. From my understanding, maybe this was used to try to explain that SLT has many 'bigger' ideas behind it!

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


From my understanding, maybe this was used to try to explain that SLT has many 'bigger' ideas behind it!


If I was guessing!!! And just guessing!!! He taught his Straight Body WC and after his Side Body WC. Maybe he felt that there are Two Core wc """Principles""" and when you learn his second set of training you get/have both Ideas/Principles of WC and its concepts???? "jing & pin"

Small Picture & Big Picture of WC if you know what I mean???


Just a guess! :)


I have to run!


Peace,

[kung fu fighter]

The reason that i think Lee Shing used the term dai nim tao (big idea) to discribe the Fung's 12 sets portion of his art was because it was an overview of the entire wing chun system. Where siu nim tao was small beginning. This way if a student went in the wrong direction with his wing chun developemnt, then he/she could go back and fix things when they learnt big idea.

[LoneTiger108]

If I was guessing!!! And just guessing!!! He taught his Straight Body WC and after his Side Body WC. Maybe he felt that there are Two Core wc """Principles""" and when you learn his second set of training you get/have both Ideas/Principles of WC and its concepts???? "jing & pin"

Small Picture & Big Picture of WC if you know what I mean???

I see what you're saying here Jim, although I have to disagree as there aren't only two 'ideas' of Wing Chun body mechanics (Jing & Pin/Pien) and Lee Shing would have known this (I can only presume!)

Little and big ideas I get. But the big idea is more than just pien san as we deal with juk san too, as should anybody who claims to know the pole!


The reason that i think Lee Shing used the term dai nim tao (big idea) to discribe the Fung's 12 sets portion of his art was because it was an overview of the entire wing chun system. Where siu nim tao was small beginning. This way if a student went in the wrong direction with his wing chun developemnt, then he/she could go back and fix things when they learnt big idea.

I like your thinking here Navin, and have to say I agree 100%!

I have read though that this set can be trained throughout your life without even learning the other forms! I think the whole idea of disecting and actually 'training' each set in many different ways was one of the staple points of The Yum Yeurng Academy when we formed.

What I have seen online are various examples of our interactive training, although the Gulao practitioners seem to be very skilled at this as they have had many more years exposure. It's a shame I see them 'not evolve' by incorporating Ip Mans sticky hands (fast hands) methods.

This is why I believe Lee Shing was so formidable, as he understood and taught everything very, very well.

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


I see what you're saying here Jim, although I have to disagree as there aren't only two 'ideas' of Wing Chun body mechanics (Jing & Pin/Pien)

I think you are confused. Not body mechanics but Facing or Side Facing arts. JR

and Lee Shing would have known this (I can only presume!)

He had experience with both so your guess is as good as anyones! There are loads of possibilities and unless you hop in a time machine and interview him, well, I guess its lost to antiquity hahahaha JR

Little and big ideas I get.

:-) JR

But the big idea is more than just pien san as we deal with juk san too, as should anybody who claims to know the pole!

Pin "side" & Juk "slant"??? I'm talking more about Straight and Side. I have seen many Kulo village pole sets. LS was creative as both his Straight Body YMWC and Side Body PSWC all have their own uniqueness. Its great that more of his Side Body is coming out tho. Thanks for sharing!

I have to run but thanks for the chat!


It's 2009 and I am officially back to Lurk Mode!


Peace,

[LSWCTN1]

Er... Maybe not. When you 'big up' your brothers, you should let them know 'who' you're yapping to Kev! I do, however, have little respect for bullies and 'hard men' and this reputation preceeds him. Maybe he would be better off meeting some of my brothers who aren't as shy as myself.

hi Spencer

You may have jumped the gun a little here

http://www.wcarchive.com/images/sifus/d/desmond-spencer-1.jpg

if this is him i think you have met him before - when you and i met.

He seemed like a nice guy, and my instructor reckons he's a decent guy too - and he isnt one to befriend an idiot!

[LoneTiger108]

if this is him i think you have met him before - when you and i met.

He seemed like a nice guy, and my instructor reckons he's a decent guy too - and he isnt one to befriend an idiot!

I never introduced myself, and vice versa so I definitely haven't 'met' Des before. Was he actually 'there'? Maybe I have it all wrong? Maybe it's a different Des I've been told about? Maybe I shouldn't take others word for it! :o

I have been passed his details a few times on here, as if he's the only WSL rep worth talking to in the UK, and to be honest I often wonder if people have heard of Sifu Clive Potter?? He seems to be an 'authority' here on WSL and is very respectful towards WSLs wife and son.


Pin "side" & Juk "slant"???

No Jim. Pin=slant, Juk=side! I'm sure we've had this chat before?


I have seen many Kulo village pole sets. LS was creative as both his Straight Body YMWC and Side Body PSWC all have their own uniqueness. Its great that more of his Side Body is coming out tho. Thanks for sharing!

Lee Shings Pien San WCK has been around for AGES in the UK! I haven't shared much really! I think it was both Uncles Goh and Lee who promoted it back in the nineties and were totally discredited by everyone for 'inventing' it all!! Funny how things change. Now the Gulao link is readily accepted but as I've said before, what I learnt was simply Wing Chun. 3 forms, dummy, pole, knives. No secret form but a little bit of formulae!

In fact the first time a 'side body' was mentioned was during the 1st point of the pole (Dai Yat Dim) which trains juk san alignment, a famous long-range 'spear like' posture from what I remember.

[CFT]

No Jim. Pin=slant, Juk=side! I'm sure we've had this chat before?
Spencer,

Is juk = zak (側)?

側 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B0%BC
zak does mean "side" but funnily enough can also mean slant/incline.

Pin - 偏 definitely means slanted though.
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B0%BE

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

Is juk = zak (側)?

側 - http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B0%BC
zak does mean "side" but funnily enough can also mean slant/incline.

Pin - 偏 definitely means slanted though.
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B0%BE

I really need the chinese add-on to see the characters!! :o The links don't seem to work for me either...

[CFT]

I really need the chinese add-on to see the characters!! :o The links don't seem to work for me either...You should be available to see them via your browser. You may need to change the page encoding.

Firefox: View -> Character Encoding -> More Encodings -> East Asian -> Chinese traditional (Big5)

IE: View -> Encoding -> More -> Chinese traditional (Big5)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I couldn't see the characters!

Same problem!

*

The kulo people refer to:

Pin as Side, Half Slice, Half Body, Angle Body etc.. The slant refers to the bodies twisting/angle. In other words. Side Facing versus Square Facing (san chin) theory!

Juk is what we call the WC systems that the body "lean back" or slant back a bit like the leaning tower of piza. Other than that, the word Juk has never been used for anything else from our lineage and we typically, almost always, call other WC arts Jing Sun.

*

Spencer! You should visit the Kulo Pin Sun group in Wales. They are all former Lee Shing instructors and some still teach LS. I'm sure you would have a fun time with them and get to experience it first hand. Its a good place especially since they all had over a decade of LS training before starting/switching to Kulo boxing.


Ciao!

Just some thoughts!

[CFT]

Can't think what character it could be. Does "juk" sound like the character for bamboo in Cantonese?

I uploaded a jpeg of the characters for zak and pin: http://www.flickr.com/photos/17731131@N00/3177004834/

[LoneTiger108]

Can't think what character it could be. Does "juk" sound like the character for bamboo in Cantonese?

I uploaded a jpeg of the characters for zak and pin: http://www.flickr.com/photos/17731131@N00/3177004834/

Yep they sseem to be the characters I'm familiar with, but we all seem to have varied translations. On their own, Pien is an adjective for 'leaning towards one side' or 'being biased'!! Obviously paired with San (Body) this makes sense to us Kung Fu peeps. Juk can be a noun, verb or adj, the noun being 'the side', commonly a juk gorng is a 'flank attack' and juk moon is a 'side door'! Again, paired with san gives us our term 'side body'. I accept as a verb it can also mean 'incline' or 'lean' but I've never heard this term related to Ip Mans 'leaning body'. I've always known Ip Mans 'style' as jing san too (square body) but that's only because of the way we all learn SLT. There is another reference to the 'bow' (as in bow & arrow) from what I understand.


Spencer! You should visit the Kulo Pin Sun group in Wales. They are all former Lee Shing instructors and some still teach LS. I'm sure you would have a fun time with them and get to experience it first hand. Its a good place especially since they all had over a decade of LS training before starting/switching to Kulo boxing.

Lee Shing instructors? Do you mean Austin Gohs elder students?? I'd love to meet and train with them, but I have no wishes to 'switch'! Who do they learn Kulo Wing Chun from now? They have probably never met any of Lee Shings elder generation, so whatever they got from Uncle Austin I can guarantee is very different from what I learnt. It would be a great exchange though and I'd welcome that! ALL of Uncles students I have actually met are very polite and helpful, with outstanding physical knowledge. I don't think the language was concentrated on much though, but this is normal in most families from what I've seen.

Politics aside, if only we all laid a few skeletons to rest we might all benefit from listening a little bit more. I strongly believe that most of what Lee Shing knew still has never been shared publically and it's one of my main reasons for being here on this forum. The same can also 'definitely' be said for Ip Man as they both were very close.

I'm of a younger generation who missed all the madness of the eighties and I hope all families can learn from their mistakes and move forward together. The dedicated will always remain faithful in the long run I suppose, so we'll have to wait and see. An event was recently held here in London, organized by Uncle Austin and I heard that it went very well indeed...

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


Lee Shing instructors? Do you mean Austin Gohs elder students??

Some of his Wales crew. JR

I'd love to meet and train with them, but I have no wishes to 'switch'!

Wishes to switch??? :eek: I'm just giving you an opportunity to experience something different. I could care less about converting anyone and know for sure Rob is not looking for more people. :cool: JR

Who do they learn Kulo Wing Chun from now?

Robert Stevens. JR

They have probably never met any of Lee Shings elder generation, so whatever they got from Uncle Austin I can guarantee is very different from what I learnt.

hahaha :rolleyes: Especially with what they are doing now hahaha Go hang out with them and feel their engine. You might have fun! JR

It would be a great exchange though and I'd welcome that!

Even tho you guarantee it's not what you know? hahaha I couldn't resist!


His e-mail:

kulo pswck @ yahoo. co. uk


Feel free to post a write up on your experience.


Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks for the contact Jim. I'll try to email soon.

We may be very similar, just taught in a completely different way, is what I meant. ;) All is good!

Peace to you too.

[LoneTiger108]

His e-mail:

kulo pswck @ yahoo. co. uk


Feel free to post a write up on your experience.

I tried, but the email was bounced back as it doesn't exist :confused:

If you're in contact, please ask someone to get in touch through the email in my signature.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


We e-mail regularly and that is working fine! Of course you need to link it together. I separated it to prevent spam etc..

I will also tell him to e-mail you.

:)

Just in case: kulopswck@yahoo.co.uk

[LoneTiger108]

Just noticed I missed the 'k'! :o

I'll try again.

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer!


I spoke with him about 5 minutes ago!

He knows you might contact him!


:cool: