An "Inside" scoop on Praying Mantis

[Taijimantis]

I spoke recently with a respected Seven Star Praying Mantis Sifu.
After a brief conversation on the phone with him today, he related some information he obtained on a recent trip to China and into Shantung Province, where he met with several Tanglang Grand masters. The result of these meetings both verified some of my theories on Praying Mantis History, and led to a schocking discovery!

If any of you other NPM practitioners have any insight, please speak up.

The Sifu (whose name I am not printing yet out of respect for him, should I have misunderstood and misquoted him) is a reliable source, and the information he gave me comes straight from the revered horse's mouth so to speak.

NPM did not split into its popular schools at the end of the Qing Dynasty as is commonly taught. Rather it happened much sooner. According to the information I recieved it happened at the third generation of the Seven Star line (Lee San Chien aka Lee the "Lightning Fist") and from there into only three schools the Seven Star, the Tai Chi, and the Plum Blossom. These are the only styles which are "recognized" in China, all others are considered to be "illigitimate" children of Wong Long.

This verified some of my ideas on Praying Mantis History, and at the same time raises new questions...

Namaste.

[Ericsepishii]

Wow,

Very interesting information indeed.

[Vertiggo]

Taiji Mantis,

What is the difference between 7-Star, Tai Ji & plum blossome mantis and for that matter how are they similar? Why would the other mantis systems (such as six harmoney, 8-step, secret gate, wah lum)be considered illegitimate?

D'you know, d'you know, d'you know???

-a curious mind

[Taijimantis]

I have some reservations about calling people like Chan Pui "illegitimate", especially when his banner hangs in my Training Hall under the approval of my Sifu, whi is "legitimate" as a Tai Chi Master.
I will be looking into this in detail at the end of this semester, after the holidays.

The first question...
Speaking only from a knowledge of TCPM and 7*PM, there was no difference in the beginning. The differences now are slight and have evolved over the generations.

My sifu told me that the Kung Fu aspect of TCPM is seven star. "No different." he said.

Namaste

[cha kuen]

7 star mantis forms are connected and use more crushing steps. TCPM forms are more broken and use a lot of hops rather than crushing steps. Their fighting concepts are the same. Whether the other styles of mantis are legit or not, they all have the same principles and movements.

[8stepsifu]

Because we trace our lineage to Plum Blossom. 6 Harmony is not because it is a cross between 7 star and plumflower. PM styles that didn't directly come from Wong Long or his decendents(so to speak) are considered illigitamite. I have never heard of Shining board, but if they can trace it back to one of those three, then it's ok. According to our tradition, there was no Tai Chi Mantis, Only 7 Star and Plum Flower, but things could happen before or after so just because we don't know of it, doesn't make it any less valid or plausible

8Step Sifu

[Taijimantis]

This much, I am aware of.

The question is this; Why are the Plum Blossom, Tai Chi, and Seven Star the "legit" ones? What are the political situations that caused this to happen?

Another is the question of when the split occurred, and why there are so many variations of the story?

All Northern Mantis is very similar, and it has changed from the contributions of it's masters over the generations.

[Taijimantis]

8 step Sifu...

You must have been positng the same time I did, and I should tell you that MY feelings on the subject are that it is not my place to decide if something is "legit" or not.

Personally, I am trying to come up with the common truth on Northern Praying Mantis as a whole. We all claim to be descended from Jo-Si Wong Long. The politics surrounding the split fasinate me, as do the historical discrepancies.

To the best of my knowledge, it is entirely possible that your view of the split is correct and that there was no Tai Chi Praying Mantis, as it is my understanding that the Tai Chi was not incorperated into the system until it reached Chi Shou Jun and Wong Gok Din. Realisticly it may not have existed "officially" until then. As I said earlier, Ly Sifu says that the Kung Fu aspect of the system is Seven Star.

In any case I look foreword to putting some names to these Chinese Grandmasters to try and better understand the story behind all of this.

Any other input is greatly appriciated.

namaste

[ShaolinMantis]

I was told also that in fighting Taiji & 7 star are the same. Which would agree with Ly Sibak. Differences are training, power delivery, dealing with Power from an attack ( meaning asorbing an attack, deflecting rather than blocking, footwork /lighter steps )

[Taijimantis]

Si-Hing
Thanx for the newsletter (and the support) it looks great!

When I see Ly Sifu on Thursday I will show it to him and ask him if he wants to participate.

As per the styles being the same, this was verified by the seven star sifu I spoke with. He is a very kind and generous man. He questioned whether or not I should be getting information from him about Tai Chi Mantis, but when I explained the purpose (that is determining the historical origins) he was more than willing to help, adding that as a Sifu of Seven Star, he should be better schooled in the other styles, so he too is anxious to see what I turn up.

namaste

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Not to encourage any fighting...but there are a few reasons why some my discredit a style.

Perhaps the three big styles of mantis have the longest history and the most practicioners. More popular can mean more well known. Also, maybe the most skilled kung fu practicioners were in the three main styles, where the other styles could have lacked this.

An example of is how many Hong Kong people say there is no such thing as "bat gik" (ba ji). Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but by looking at the previous points, you can understand why it's not very accepted there

[Fu Manchu]

Please define what you mean when you refer to a mantis style being illigetimate?

Mantis is unlikely to have developed in isolation of other styles during that time, given that it shares similar characteristics to other Northern Systems susch as tai Chi, HsingI etc. Accordingly, how did the original brand of mantis earn its legitimacy in the first place?

Given that you have claimed that Tai-Chi Mantis is a legitimate branch and it is a combination of two styles, then what are the conditions that have been violated that prevents a more modern branch of mantis from being legitimate?

[Taijimantis]

All I can tell you is the sketchy information I have, and that needs to be followed thru on.
I was simply told that the other styles were not "recognized" I dont know what that means yet.

[wisdom mind]

but seriously its good to be seeing posts about lineage discrepancies being handled sofar with no attacks or personal bashing...keep hooking yall.

[Shaolin Master]

Well Liu He Tanglang is really a composite of
TangLang Xing Yin Liu He Quan.

So that is understandable.

[mantis108]

As far as my understand of Tai Chi Praying Mantis goes, it "was" not a blend of 2 styles. There were no affiliation of any kind prior to Sigung Chui Chuk Kai's time. TCPM is a branch of Northern Mantis which is descended from Jo-Si Wong Long. One story speaks of TCPM got its designation from one of Jo-Si's disciples, who happened to have captured a mantis with a Tai Chi motif at its back. Another speaks of Master Sun Yuen Cheung named his branch TCPM; whereas, his peer Master Kong Hop Lung named his branch Mei Fah (Plum Blossom). It is largely Sigung Chui's effort to bring Tai Chi (Chen Style Small Circle) and Tai Chi Jeung (Palm system from a Taoist monastry in Shantung province China) into the TCPM system. Sigung admired the fighting ability of the Tai Chi fighters. This gives TCPM a unique flavour among other PM systems. Quite a number of forms can still be traced back to their creator(s) in TCPM. Personal note, I would consider all Northern Mantis and their hybirds as part of the family. Unless of course some silly WuShu-Kick Boxing BS, claims to be Taiji Praying Mantis and make a book about it. That I would call it worst than illegitimate and immoral. *Sigh*

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Taijimantis]

I tend to lean heavily in the direction of Si-hing Mantis 108 on most of his statement. However I have heard sevearl stories (one from Master Ly) about the Taiji being incorporated into the Mantis style Kungfu. Of course there is a language barrier there, and often we get our wires crossed as there is generally not time for lengthy discussion. I believe the Taiji systems were melded into the Kungfu with Sigung Chiu Chu-Kai.
Some stories have Grandmaster Chiu's Sifu (plural) being the ones to incorporate Chen Taijiquan into the system. The Taiji Jeung could not have been introduced at this time as it was Sigung who first learned the system and began teaching it openly.
I should stress that I was not saying Taiji Mantis is a "hybrid". It is Northern Praying Mantis. As I mentioned before, the styles evolve with the masters who teach them. Ly Sifu has changed several of the forms (including the wooden dummy form)so it is difficult to say.
It is time for my Dharma study and my wife is calling me to read right now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
More later

Namaste,

[mantis7]

HEY GUYS THINK OF IT THIS WAY....

The more you trian in mantis then train in a second style they will influecence each other....
so for example if you traine in monkey boxing as a second with mantis your mantis will develop along those lines of monkey mantis gung fu....THe chuen luen clan in new york we are heavily influenced with eagle claw.. IT is still mantis but with a lil twist it is still seven star....All REAL gunfg fu master know not every style is complete because if it was there wouldnt be no need for any others... All things need to change or die.... Change bri ngs movement and with out movement things grow stagnate and die....
So if you want to say what is classical wong long none can claim to be it because over the genration have been added to and taken away from.
So in all actuallity we are all illigitimate... Wong long created his vision and pasted it on and I hope he hoped that it would grow and get better... Which it has every divergence on the mantis system that has lasted the test of times is his students or student students improvement or personal view on the system. so this topic should be are theses sytems based on the classical wong long movement and not if we belong to him because onces you start to train in gung fu it stops becoming your sifus gung fu after a certian amount of time and becomes your own.....

Everyones goals shouldnt being able to have the ability to look like everyone else but being able to bring out the best in YOUR mantis and trying to be better than your teacher.. because it is only then that a teacher can say he produced a GREAT student when his student is as skilled or surpasses him. who wants a style or technique that can grow or adapt. Just like the sciences of the world we need to gro and look to our ansestors
and say yes they were good but dam we are better than our ansestors can sigh a reielf and be happy that we follow the road they did of improvment and discovery...

Victor

[Taijimantis]

I couldnt agree with you more.
However this isnt my point...
Initate and I talked about it this morning... As far as the whole "lineage thing" goes--who cares? Right? Just practice it...

While this is my attitude as a martial artist, as a social scientist (anthropologist in training here...) the whole thing is fascinating.

I am not trying to put anything down, just repeating some info I heard. Trying to put all the common pieces into the same pot and hopefully come up with something tasty!

Thank you all for understanding my intent... I am not out to **** anyone off...

[ShaolinMantis]

I found this in one of my archives. I thought you guys would find it interesting, if you have not seen/heard it already. This is a long post !!

This from a mailing list. I am posting it from there with the belief it is public info. The owner of this list is a Northern Shaolin Sihing.
Anyone wishing to join this “no nonsense” mailing list contact me I will put you in touch. Primary topics are Northern Shaolin & Mantis plus other Northern Styles & issues. These are mature discussions flamers are cut very quickly.

Enjoy:

>A bit more Tang Lang historical stuff....
>
>==============================================
>David Conches interviewed
>most of the shandong Masters of today in his numerous travels to
>Jinan, Qingdao, Yantai, visiting also Liangshan. Horacio served him
>as translator with Master Lin Tung Chu, 7th generation master of
>Lin family of Seven Star Praying Mantis. Lin Chin San was
>classmate or Luo Kwan Yu.
>
>Claudio Di Renzo, translator from Spanish.
>=============================================
>Tanglangchuan
>By David Conches (Spain) Director of Golden Dragon Magazine
>
>The legend says that one day, Zhuang Gong, kinf of the state of
>Chi (Qi), during the spring and autum period (770-476 b.c.) was
>travelling with a carriage a rural road, and was suddenly stopped.
>
>-What's wrong? -he asked
>-There is a big praying mantis on the way -responded the driver-
>and it is walking calmly despite your arrival, my lord.
>
>After hearing that, Zhuang Gong get off, took the mantis and put it
>softly on the grass aside the road. Some time later, in order to
>develop his soldier's courage, this king created several weapons
>inspired in the insect's limbs, and those which yielded them were
>called the "soldiers of mantis".
>
> We dont know about truth and false in this story, but we know
>that in Shandong province, in a zone between Yantai and Qingdao,
>it is said that a very antique book called "Lio Tao" exists, looking
>like having around 4000 years of age, in which the mantis style is
>mentioned. (the writer could not corrobore this by himself)
>
> Inspired by this story the method Tanglang Chi Fa (methods of
>mantis fighting) was created, as a boxing containing some
>techniques as rising, holding, parrying, extending.
>
> Mantis style (Tanglangquan) is caracterized by speed
>successions of movements mixed of hand and legs, with elastic
>and expressive steps, with vigor and courage. It has been and still
>is one of the systems with more efficacy in fighting several
>attackers, which is the reason why it is so popular in Shandong.
>
>
>ORIGIN AND SPREADING
>===================
> According to old contrasted chronicles, Tanglangquan comes from
>Hua Yi temple, in Lao Shan mountain, specifically from the second
>chief of the temple, known as Tong Che. His real name being Sang
>Sao xia He.
>
> Hua Yi temple is the only temple existing today in Lao Shan (old
>mountain). Some years ago there was also the pagoda of Chong
>Yien Zu Chi Su Che Tao Su Che Gun Shao Xia, it is the reminding
>Tong Chie pagoda, which was destroyied some 25 years ago, and
>now tanglangquan descendants want to rebuild, generating
>donatives to Hua Yi temple.
>
>Before becoming a monk, Tong Che was called Wang Le Wu,
>being the seventh of brothers, reason for which he was called Yu Qi
>or "seventh born".
>
>This great man was born in 1609 and died in 1702, his birth place
>Xixia town, Zimo district, Shandong province. Wang studied from
>his father Taizuchangquan, being recognized as a great martial
>artist at 20. He worked as an imperial guard or Ming under the
>official name of Man Shi.
>
>Wang family was rich and influenced Han government. But when
>manchu invaded their town causing several deaths, they destroyed
>the house killing all his family.
>
>During Manchu dinasty of Qing, Wang headed several
>insurrections, that is why people did not stop talking about Yu qi,
>but his movements were aborted and beyond defeat he was
>followed by Qing guards and he Wang Yu Qi, refuged in Hua Yi
>Temple in Lao Shan. The aboth of the temple helped him throwing
>him hot water to his face and making the guards believe he was a
>viruela ill.
>
> In those times manchus entered in Chinese territory, creating a
>period of calamities and chaos. During those invasions Wang
>fought bravely till one day, while in battle he was beaten, falling
>from a mountain and believed dead.
>
>He was rescued by a shaolin monk called Tung Chang, who took
>him to Shaolinsi and helped him recover. While that and later, he
>was taught the 17 martial systems taught at those times in
>shaolin.
>
>All this systems were composed originally or one routine or set:
>
>1 - Taizuchangquan (long boxing) created by Zhao Kuan Yin.
>2 - Dongbeiquan (long armed ape) created by Han Tong.
>3 - Chan Fong (rolling and closing) created by Chan Yin.
>4 - Duan Quan (short striking) created by Un Yuen.
>5 - Duan Da (strike shortly) created by Ma Chi
>6 - Hou Quan (monkey boxing) created by Sun Hong.
>7 - Kao Shen (body pushing) created by Huan Chang.
>8 - Men Chang Fei Chi (whip palm hitting) created by Tao Chang.
>9 - Suai Liao Yen Peng (holding and pushing strongly) created by
>Huai To.
>10 - Ko Lou Chai Suo (take, separate and break the circle) created
>by Liu Shin
>11 - Kun Lo Kuan Er (Separate and tapping the ears) created by
>Tan Fuan.
>12 - San Na Tie Fa (hold and control) created by Yan Ching.
>13 - Pien Yang Chiao (duck double kick) created by Lien Chou
>(one of the 108 heroes of Liangshan)
>14 - Chi Shi Lian Quan (seven continuous fists) created by Men
>Shan.
>15 - Kuo Li Puo Chuei (cutting the net in two) created by Chuei
>Nen.
>16 - Gun Chai Shu Lu (staff direct in spiral) created by Yan Kun.
>17 - Ke Sou Tong Quan (cover with continuous strikes) created by
>Chin Sien.
>
>His masters were the monks among who there were several
>importan Han governmnent people retired to monastic life. All of
>them were experts in several wushu methods.
>
>Aproximatedly in 1650 a.c. Shaolin temple was invaded and burned
>by manchu invaders. Many died and others could escape. Wang
>Le Wu fought the invaders, and later he tood refuge in Laoshan
>mountain, entering as a monk in Hua Yi temple. Changed the
>name to Tong Che and took the laic name of Sang Sao Xia Hi.
>
>The insurrects were defeated by Qing dinasty, but in places like
>Yantai,xixia, Chaoyuan, Pintu, Nayian, etc. some survived and
>they gathered at Hua Yi temple to communicate.
>
>Wang was allways at the head of the insurrects which he
>considered as sons, that is why he was known as Wang or the
>surname De Yi Shi, which means "having a son". That is why he
>was called Wang Lang. Wang was his surname and Lang means
>son. Also during a time he was called in disguise Qian Si San, a
>fake name to spy the enemy.
>
>General headquarters of Wang was in Xia Gou temple, at the high
>of the mountain protecting Yantai, and even when Wang Lang
>ideated the Tanglangquan in Hua yi temple, it was in that mountain
>that he developed the style.
>
> Much later was discovered that one of the monks, called Tan
>Tung, was the responsible of the traition that made Shaolinsi
>burning possible. With avenging spirit Wang Lang decided to hunt
>the guy and execute him to avenge the innoble acts. That is why
>he got down the mountain once a year for three years studying
>gong fu with good masters, and looking for the traitor. Once he
>found him he was defeated by the traitor who was a consumate
>fighter of shaolin temple.
>
>During a hot summer, wang lang sat at a tree and
>
>(HERE COMES THE FAMOUS STORY OF THE MANTIS
>IMITATION AND THE MONKEY STEPS)
>
> After long study he selected 12 techniques of attack and defense
>inspired in mantis and monkey, and divided them in three
>categories:
>
>Beng Bu (demolition steps)
>Lanchen (attracting and neutralizing)
>Bachio (eight elbow attacks)
>
>In time he become an expert in mantis hand techniques. He took
>then the best of the 17 styles he learned in Shaolin temple and
>gathered it to mantis hands and monkey feet, creating a new
>fighting style.
>
>After maturing and practising continuously the new methods, Wang
>lang searched Tan Tung and at a first hand contact Tan Tung was
>throwed along. He asked furiously:
>
>-Which style is that?
>-Tanglang chi Fa! - Wanglang answered
>
>Tantung embisted with all his power but Wanglang using the
>mantis claw took Tan Tung head off and took it to Lao Shan
>mountain, showing his work was complete. Then he dedicated to
>teach the style in Hua Yi temple.
>In 1679 Wang lang was 70 years old and taught the new method to
>taoist monk Li Ping Hiao or Sheng Shiao, who showed it to other
>masters later.
>The original mantis style or tanglangquan was the birth of other
>mantis styles like:
>
>Mimem tanglangquan, Qi XingTLQ, Liu He TLQ, Mei Hua TLQ, and
>Ba Bu TLQ.
>

>David Conches Golden Dragon magazine issue 7
>


null

ShaolinMantis-I

[Vertiggo]

Extremely interesting article. Thx for sharing ShaolinMantis.

[mantis108]

This material is remarkalbely interesting. It addresses quite a few areas that were clouded and put forth possible theories (we have to becareful with oral tradition when new material comes to light). Here are some points that I find most interesting. In one of the article concerning the history of Tai Chi Praying Mantis, some of these points are addressed as well yet with slight differences.

1) The background of Wang Long. In both versions, he came from wealthy and powerful family.

2) Influence of his father. In TCPM, his father hired Sifus to teach Wang Long.

3) He was well versed in TaiJo (TaiZu) Long Fist. In both versions.

4) He travelled lots, far and wide as well.

5)He made frequent stays at "A" temple in Shantung province. He seemed to have established an operation base of sort.

6)He Learned 17 style and went to creat 1 more.

7)He was battling someone (friend or foe) whom inspired him to improve.

8)He observed a battle between the insects.

9)He took 12 principles from his own study. In TCPM version, he took from his Taijo LongFist teachers' teaching.

10)He compiled 3 forms. Both versions are the same. In TCPM version, it took him 6 years and the help of the abbot in the Shantung temple.

11)He had a hugh social network of martial artists.

12)He was involved in the rebellion against the Manchurians rulers

13)No further theory of what happen to him afterward. Did he die of natural causes, captured or others?

It seems some questions being answered yet again it opens new avenues. The search continues...

Thanks for sharing Sihing Shaolin Mantis I.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Interestingly enough, I've actually been to Hua Yi temple in the Laoshan mountains. It was pretty difficult to find, as it wasn't really marked on any of the maps, and it wasn't listed as being a place that had anything to do with preying mantis. But joy! We found it (after a heck of a lot of walking through those mountains), and sure enough, there was a pagoda, a big plaque, and a couple of enourmous statues that had been built to commemorate Wang Lang, and if I remember correctly they had parts of that story enscribed onto a stone tablet. All of this is actually outside of the main temple, in a little out of the way area that is denoted as being the martial arts school (now empty and abandoned). Hmmmm.....I'll see if I can find any of the pics I took and post them up here if you guys want....

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com

[BIG MANTIS]

its nice to see an intelligent discussion of this issue i would lke to congratulate all on this thread for keeping the true spirit of the martial arts in mind and not spewing garbage, threats, and insults like so many other threads. I am a wah lum student and appreciate the cvility of the posters