Mastery

[Wu Wei Wu]

According to Malcolm Gladwell in his new book "Outliers" 10,000 hours of practise is required before a person reaches mastery. His examples include Bobby Fischer, Mozart., et al.

If 'mastery' is defined as a high level of proficiency;

Does this tie into the classical notion that masters are aged individuals who have practised technique as well as applied a considerable amount of abstract thinking to Gung Fu?

Is it possible to have a young master?

Any thoughts?

Suki Gosal

[CFT]

I guess it begs the question: "mastery of what"?

Fischer competed.
In a sense Mozart competed with his peers for patronage. If his latest opera was rubbish then it would bomb at the theatre.

There is a mechanism for quality control.

[couch]

That's huge question in my mind. Worth spending some considerable amount of time hashing out, too. For the sake of mastery being about accruing 10'000 hours, there could definitely be a 'young master.' But in my mind, there is a sense of maturity that is only accrued the more 'real world' experience you have, the more research you've done on topics including yourself and just by getting older and living life. So. Is mastery about the 10'000 hours or about mastering your mind, body and soul as well?

[Wayfaring]

Is it possible to have a young master?

Any thoughts?

Suki Gosal

What's the young master's fight record?

[David Jamieson]

transmission is the stumbling block of the young. along with deep understanding and life experience which simply doesn't exist at a young age.

teaching method is more clear after you've experienced a lot fo different people.

[m1k3]

According to Malcolm Gladwell in his new book "Outliers" 10,000 hours of practise is required before a person reaches mastery. His examples include Bobby Fischer, Mozart., et al.

If 'mastery' is defined as a high level of proficiency;

Does this tie into the classical notion that masters are aged individuals who have practised technique as well as applied a considerable amount of abstract thinking to Gung Fu?

Is it possible to have a young master?

Any thoughts?

Suki Gosal


Bobby Fischer earned the title of Grandmaster at 15 years and 6 months.

[stonecrusher69]

I guess it begs the question: "mastery of what"?

Fischer competed.
In a sense Mozart competed with his peers for patronage. If his latest opera was rubbish then it would bomb at the theatre.

There is a mechanism for quality control.

after 10,000 hrs of practice takes a long time. At that point, one should be competed in the basics at least.

[Liddel]

EDIT.... along with deep understanding and life experience which simply doesn't exist at a young age.

I would beg to differ. Some people experience alot of what life has to offer very early through good and bad experiences...more so than others there own age.

When i was 20 i had traveled to many different countries and experienced many different cultures - its something Kiwis tend to do alot of, travel, because we're very far from the rest of the world -

I had one person in the US (bout 35) ask me if we had running water LOL and another (bout 40) asked how much time it took to get to Toronto from home... i said bout 20 hours all up and she replied "what, driving" LOL

Perhaps Kung Fu is slightly different and your point does hold water but my belief is it depends on the individual.

Ever heard the term 'old soul'... that kind of thing :)

DREW

[Wayfaring]

I would beg to differ. Some people experience alot of what life has to offer very early through good and bad experiences...more so than others there own age.

And others of us, although having experienced life, since we've been so sheltered have maintained the emotional development of those far below our own age.

[anerlich]

I had one person in the US (bout 35) ask me if we had running water LOL and another (bout 40) asked how much time it took to get to Toronto from home... i said bout 20 hours all up and she replied "what, driving" LOL


When I was contracting at IBM we had a guy that we convinced that the Sydney Harbour Bridge was shut down for an hour in the middle of the day so that the kangaroos could cross. We almost got him signed up for a day of wombat riding on a weekend as well. He wasn't a dope, just spent far too long inside offices and in front of screens.

I don't know that 10000 hours of practice alone is enough. I think a certain amount of overcoming adversity and meeting unique personal challenges have to be included. Also I don't think mastery comes unless you are pushed (or push yourself) right up against your limits on at least one occasion.

But I think experience matters too ... most of my friends that married in their early twenties got divorced within 10 years, Me and the other rejects and late developers who stayed on the shelf and married around 30 are still together. Not that I'd dare to presume I'd mastered marriage - not even close LOL.


Ever heard the term 'old soul'... that kind of thing

I can see that, but I think retaining the curiosity and wonder of a child is also necessary.

[LoneTiger108]

According to Malcolm Gladwell in his new book "Outliers" 10,000 hours of practise is required before a person reaches mastery. His examples include Bobby Fischer, Mozart., et al.

If 'mastery' is defined as a high level of proficiency;

Does this tie into the classical notion that masters are aged individuals who have practised technique as well as applied a considerable amount of abstract thinking to Gung Fu?

Is it possible to have a young master?

Any thoughts?

Suki Gosal

10,000 hrs? That'll be 1250 8hr days, 250 5-day weeks which is almost 5 years full-time training.

Sounds like a standard Shaolin student to me, not a master. Many Shaolin guys that complete more than that aren't masters, just exceptional practitioners. Maybe he was referring to this number 'per technique'?!

Ever heard that saying about 'quality not quantity'?

[Grilo]

my 2 cents worth.
as a standard definition Master (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/master).
You cannot list world greats as masters. Their skills, accomplishments, and time period all play a roll in who they were. I am not negating them, just putting them in a total different category.
Who was the last recent Master of something or who in your eyes is the next master at something?
Mastery of a skill is different than being a master, grand master, or almighty. A master usually comes with a level of standard that has to be met. ie a Chess grand master needs to have played and won in a set number of championships, a Master gunner in the army/marines is a rank. Mastery of something is different.

I have included the link to the definition for a reason. #6 is what i point to as a master in Kung fu. You can be a kick ass fighter, or the door to enlightenment doesnt matter but in kung fu if you cannot pass that on or have people want to learn it from you... are you a master?

Master is also a title given not taken. Ask the grand masters, 'are you a master?' and they would probably ask, ' are you my slave?'

Perfection, mastery, enlightenment, they are all levels we want to attain and never will. It is about the path and the journey and the people along the way that make you a master. Having people seek you out to ask you a question, usually the same one every time, 'why?'. Mastery is the ability to lead these people that seek you out to find their 'because' as you find/understand your own.

mastery in something is a way of life not a name, level, position you have.

P.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe in the "old soul" coming back and being some sort of child prodigy - and I also believe in what Anerlich was getting at when he wrote: "I don't think mastery comes unless you are pushed (or push yourself) right up against your limits on at least one occasion."

As for the 10,000 repetitions: I think that is an arbitrary number that may or may not be reality.

But as for MASTERY, the point is that the number of reps has to be very significant.

Because it seems to me that Mastery requires 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration - to borrow and amend a famous phrase from Albert Einstein.

One of the reasons why I always scoff at the idea that wing chun is "such" a concept based art that it is "counter productive" to drill individual techniques, ie.- a pak against a straight punch, a garn vs. a low round punch, etc.

While recognizing that the "flow" of wing chun must be uppermost in one's approach to the art - and therefore spontaneity is the name of the game in the final analysis - nonetheless, it's been my experience that one must drill certain set responses (yes, I said "set" responses)....

countless times in order gain any semblance of mastery - while recognizing that each and every time might come out slightly (or occasionally very) different than the time before.

[Museumtech]

As for the 10,000 repetitions: I think that is an arbitrary number that may or may not be reality.

This is more along the line that I have been told, 10,000 reps not hours, to master a technique. That's master a technique not, to become a master. Let's not get ahead of our selves.

I my view a master of Wing Chun has mastered all of the techniques.

Peter

[Wu Wei Wu]

The book specifies 10,000 hours (personally I think this number is arbitrary and is just used to emphasize a dedication and hard work) involved to attain mastery.

However, the distinction in mastery of technique is an important one and can be described in a number of ways, for example:

- the number of repetitions for the movement to be 'automated'
- change from a (CNS) cortex based activity to cerebellum based activity
- go from conscious incompetence to unconscious competence.

Suki

[TenTigers]

Gung-Fu is like any other skill, such as a guitar. It takes many hours of practicing scales, runs, riffs, etc before one can improvise, or jam on a simple I,IV,V Blues progression. Then there are the Steve Vai's of the world, who shut themselves off in their rooms every day for ten hour practice sessions until the instrument and their playing is a total expression of themselves, spontaneous outpouring of emotion from the soul directly out into the fingertips. To know your instrument so well, that if there is a sound in your head, it immediately is able to come out in your hands on the instrument-that is mastery.
My Gung-Fu is like my guitar playing. I can jam, and I have moments of spontaneous inspirational flow. But, I do not know the entire fretboard. I cannot do a "C " scale in every position, find any note at will on the fretboard.
But from what I know well, my chops-when I find my groove, I can wail.

So..I am not a master. But some things I can do very well.

[Liddel]

I think the 10k reps rather than hours is a good point... Sifu mentioned to me on the first day of training more than a decade ago id need at least 8k hours to learn and practice VT to have a decent skill level...thats not even close to mastery. Its similar to an apprenticeship just to get going etc.

Slightly off topic but your post Tentigers reminds me of guys like Angus Young or Hendrix...or Eddie VH.

They got to a point where they know thier craft so well (in this case shredding an axe) that they can perform under ever changing situations...uneffected, or totally change the art.

Jimi could play better than most with his teeth, which is insane and angus head bangs like a machine gun and rolls around on the floor without screwing up one single note...EVH plucks notes with fingers from one hand.

Many would agree they could be classed as masters but would they think that themselves.....

Could the term 'master' be more about perspective, like being in the top percentage for whatever your doing ?

P.S Tentigers... Gilmour is GOD ! LOL :p

DREW

[TenTigers]

yes...Gilmore IS god.

[Laukarbo]

u are a master when u got the glow.... :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWVhiIisH30

[chusauli]

I guess the question is - mastery of what? A single motion? Yes, perhaps 10,000 reps will make it automatic for you, but not WCK as a whole.

Maybe in WCK as a whole with 10000 hours, you can have a "working situational knowledge"...

We're human, I prefer the term "a work in process"...

For a long time I also studied NLPand we were taught that we could have "similar results" if we mapped them as "success leaves clues". But seeing what people who have had a lifetime of practice with, its hardly a comparison at times.

Interesting posts...

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can't put a time frame on any human physical endevour.
Fact is, what takes Tim 10k hours can take Phil 20k and take John 5K.

[TenTigers]

not only that, but how do you define mastery? It is an individual experience. My students stand in awe of my technique, yet I feel as a beginner when touching hands with my Sifu, who then feels he is a shadow of his own.
It's all relative.

[sihing]

not only that, but how do you define mastery? It is an individual experience. My students stand in awe of my technique, yet I feel as a beginner when touching hands with my Sifu, who then feels he is a shadow of his own.
It's all relative.

Good post, I was asking myself the same question.

IMO, the word and meaning behind Mastery, is a thing of the mind. The mind will set limitations and boundaries to the true reality of what is happening and what we are capable of. Therefore if you are living in that reality you will be subjected to that paradigm. If you ever break thru a limitation, you wonder why you ever thought that way in the first place.

James

[stonecrusher69]

I know in the Philippines to be considerd a Grandmaster one had to have a certain number of decades put in and also a long teaching record to be considerd by your peers as a master or grandmaster. Perhaps thats not a bad way to look at it.It does not say wherether the person is good or not it can give you some idea.

[Wayfaring]

Here's a more philosophical approach to this question. Is "mastery" more of an ideal to strive towards continuously rather than a destination to attain?

[TenTigers]

Here's a more philosophical approach to this question. Is "mastery" more of an ideal to strive towards continuously rather than a destination to attain?
There is a sky above sky, a skill above skill. There is always a higher mountain.You should always be striving to develop and grow. When you stop, and you become complacent in your skills, then you do not stay where you are, you backslide and your skills decline. Usually people who do this do not realize it until they are too far gone. Usually, their egos prevent this.

[taai gihk yahn]

mastery is the ability to utilize a technique as if one were not utilizing a technique;

[bakxierboxer]

mastery is the ability to utilize a technique as if one were not utilizing a technique;

.... which might "translate" as their techniques had become "reflexive" or "spontaneous".

OTOH, it's still useful for a "teacher type" to be able to demonstrate "a technique" as "just that".

[Wu Wei Wu]

The term 'mastery' is clearly a loaded one, especially in the domain of Gung Fu. Perhaps 'high degree of proficiency' should be substituted.

Chu Sau Li - I'm interested to hear what aspects of NLP, if any, had any cross-application to Wing Chun.

Suki

[chusauli]

Suki,

I suppose you are familiar with NLP, so I will not go into detail...you can use all of the following:

Presuppositions, Modelling, Well formed Outcomes, VAK, Anchoring, Chaining anchors, Swish Patterns, 6-Step reframe, rapport skills, Meta states, Representation systems, Strategies, Predicates, Information gathering, Meta Model, Outcomes, Eye accessing cues, time line, Reframing, Communication, Training, Training the Trainer, Peak Performance, Self Actualization, Milton Model, Satir Model.

All in NLP can be used to aid in any learning. Its just a way of cutting down and saving time in business, therapy, coaching, peak athletic performance, and medical treatment.

WCK practitioners would do well to integrate more of it. I'd certainly like to hear your experiences.

Best regards,

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Chu Sau Li,

I have the humble familiarity of an autodidact.

Its such a huge topic and the tendency is for people to emphasize particular aspects that they are into. For instance, I recognize most of the terms that you used but certainly not all of them.

I can tell you from my experience;

1) That my main concern is "how do I use this to better my Gung Fu" i.e. how can the theory (anchoring, meta states, time line, modalities" be turned into a drill with real time application. So, I would definitely be interested in how you (specifically) incorporate NLP tools into training Wing Chun.

2) Most useful to me have been meta states. I've had a bit of luck being guided by a hypnotherapist so I've used self inductions for a few years to create some resource states for e.g. Wing Chun, studying, working etc. I used to be into swish patterns and anchoring but the novelty wore off after a while.

3) A problem I find is that when you incorporate this stuff, a lot of becomes subconscious, so you have to step back to understand what you are doing.

3) A big thing for me is posture, macro and micro gesture changes (to make assessments and predictions regarding the opponent). This has obvious application to de-escalation strategies when the 'tells' are obvious of someone in a heightened state of aggression.

I hope this makes sense. Also interested to hear any observations you have and perhaps even suggestions.

Suki

[chusauli]

Suki,

Gladly discuss them all with you. Might be a better thing for us to do offline.

Feel free to contact me at chusauli@gmail.com.

Hope to chat soon.

[Hardwork108]

......also a long teaching record to be considerd by your peers as a master or grandmaster. Perhaps thats not a bad way to look at it.It does not say wherether the person is good or not it can give you some idea.

My wing chun sifu always said that to really understand a technique one has to be at a level to teach it. Teaching it to different people makes the teacher further understand the particular technique in question by seeing it from a different "angle", hence helping him in its mastery.

Furthermore according to him (and it makes perfect sense to me), one becomes a Grand Master when one or more of his disciples reach a masters level.

HW108

[Mr Punch]

lol, seconds out, round two

[taai gihk yahn]

lol, seconds out, round two

yeah, let the games begin anew...