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SimonM
12-11-2008, 12:54 PM
I'd refer people to Harriet Hall's column in the volume 14 number 3 2008 issue of Skeptic magazine on pages 8 and 9 where she proposes a modern origin of Acupuncture.

I'm interested to get other's opinions on the article.

Lucas
12-11-2008, 02:10 PM
I'd refer people to Harriet Hall's column in the volume 14 number 3 2008 issue of Skeptic magazine on pages 8 and 9 where she proposes a modern origin of Acupuncture.

I'm interested to get other's opinions on the article.

is this available online anywhere?

sanjuro_ronin
12-11-2008, 02:30 PM
I'd refer people to Harriet Hall's column in the volume 14 number 3 2008 issue of Skeptic magazine on pages 8 and 9 where she proposes a modern origin of Acupuncture.

I'm interested to get other's opinions on the article.

Link Biotch !

SimonM
12-11-2008, 03:05 PM
AFAIK it is not available online. IF it is it would be at www.skeptic.com

But the magazine has a wide Canadian and American distribution. It's my second favorite magazine.

taai gihk yahn
12-11-2008, 03:13 PM
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

"Harriet Hall, a retired family practitioner who is interested in quackery, has summed up the significance of acupuncture research in an interesting way:

Acupuncture studies have shown that it makes no difference where you put the needles. Or whether you use needles or just pretend to use needles (as long as the subject believes you used them). Many acupuncture researchers are doing what I call Tooth Fairy science: measuring how much money is left under the pillow without bothering to ask if the Tooth Fairy is real."

Xiao3 Meng4
12-11-2008, 03:22 PM
I'm interested in that article too.

"Traditional Chinese Medicine" (TCM) is modern, that's pretty well known. Acupuncture as is taught and practised in China and much of North America today is TCM. There have definitely been certain modern developments such as electro-acupuncture, laser acupuncture, and ear acupuncture (the system was actually developed in the US.) 5 element acupuncture as practised by JR Worsely is also a modern derivative. Both TCM and 5 element acupuncture have their roots in Classical Chinese Medicine, but have deviated from the Classics in certain ways.

"Classical Chinese Medicine" (CCM) is pre-TCM Chinese medicine. Acupuncture definitely played a major role. It consists generally of the classically defined methods found in the Nei Jing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing), the Nan Jing, the Jia Yi Jing, and the Zhen Jiu Da Cheng Jing. Funnily enough, this form of acupuncture strongly influenced French Acupuncture, which in turn influenced European acupuncture in general.

I know next to nothing about Japanese or Korean acupuncture.

"Ancient Chinese Medicine" (ACM) is Chinese medical literature that has been discovered archeologically. The MaWangDui silk texts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts)from 168 BC demonstrate that meridian theory was well established, a rudimentary form of acupoint theory existed, and Qi Gong was already in use. The text also contains many herbal prescriptions.

The meridians described in the Ma Wang Dui texts differ only slightly from those described in the CCM text of the Ling Shu, which is the second book of the Nei Jing.

A translation of the Ma Wang Dui medical texts exists, it's called "Early Chinese Medical Literature," (http://www.amazon.com/Early-Chinese-Medical-Literature-HARPER/dp/0710305826)but it's pricy: $500 on Amazon! You can often do an interlibrary loan for it, though.

TCM may be modern, but acupuncture is old.

Xiao3 Meng4
12-11-2008, 03:30 PM
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

"Harriet Hall, a retired family practitioner who is interested in quackery, has summed up the significance of acupuncture research in an interesting way:

Acupuncture studies have shown that it makes no difference where you put the needles. Or whether you use needles or just pretend to use needles (as long as the subject believes you used them). Many acupuncture researchers are doing what I call Tooth Fairy science: measuring how much money is left under the pillow without bothering to ask if the Tooth Fairy is real."

May I refer you to a book called "The Basics of Acupuncture" (http://www.amazon.com/Basics-Acupuncture-Gabriel-Stux/dp/3540632352)
and of course the WHO's (http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2002/9241545437.pdf) perspective.

Also, 99% of the studies are done from a TCM model standpoint, as opposed to CCM, and yet there are still marked successes. Interestingly, what is considered "Sham acupuncture" in TCM is actually a distinct methodology in and of itself within the CCM model.

SimonM
12-11-2008, 03:40 PM
"Ancient Chinese Medicine" (ACM) is Chinese medical literature that has been discovered archeologically. The MaWangDui silk texts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts)from 168 BC demonstrate that meridian theory was well established, a rudimentary form of acupoint theory existed, and Qi Gong was already in use. The text also contains many herbal prescriptions.
.

References to needling in early texts is actually addressed in the article I originally mentioned. Apparently there was some ambiguity over the use of the term as using a stout needle for the purpose of bloodletting and for the lancing of boils and sores was part of early Chinese medical practice. This is rather different than stimulating magical channels full of breath in the skin with thin steel needles.

taai gihk yahn
12-11-2008, 04:10 PM
May I refer you to a book called "The Basics of Acupuncture" (http://www.amazon.com/Basics-Acupuncture-Gabriel-Stux/dp/3540632352)
and of course the WHO's (http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2002/9241545437.pdf) perspective.

Also, 99% of the studies are done from a TCM model standpoint, as opposed to CCM, and yet there are still marked successes. Interestingly, what is considered "Sham acupuncture" in TCM is actually a distinct methodology in and of itself within the CCM model.

the problem with the WHO report is that it says little about inclusion criteria of studies beyond that most were randomized and some were not, but says noting about what sort of methodological review was done to determine if in fact a cited study was either reliable or valid;

Cochrane Review (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/) is considered the "gold standard" for review and meta-analysis of extant research, and has a much different perspective in general...

here is a sample when you search for Chinese Medicine (http://search.cochrane.org/search?q=Chinese+Medicine&restrict=review_abstracts&scso_colloquia_abstracts=colloquia_abstracts&client=my_collection&scso_evidence_aid=evidence_aid&scso_review_abstracts=review_abstracts&lr=&output=xml_no_dtd&sub_site_name=Cochrane_Reviews_search&filter=0&site=my_collection&ie=&oe=&scso_newsletters=newsletters&scso_cochrane_org=this_site&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cochrane.org%2Fse arch%2Fgoogle_mini_xsl%2Fcochrane_org.xsl&btnG=Search); almost without exception, the conclusions refer to the poor methodological quality of available studies;

of course, one can argue TCM / CCM don't do well when assessed in this manner; and I do not disagree - but if the TCM crowd wants to play the EBM game, then they have to play by the rules, do good research and accept the outcome; otherwise, they should go the other route and say straight out that TCM and other similar forms of medicine are highly subjective in their application, and that while they may be individually successful on a case-by-case basis, no generalized conclusions can be drawn

Xiao3 Meng4
12-11-2008, 04:42 PM
References to needling in early texts is actually addressed in the article I originally mentioned. Apparently there was some ambiguity over the use of the term as using a stout needle for the purpose of bloodletting and for the lancing of boils and sores was part of early Chinese medical practice. This is rather different than stimulating magical channels full of breath in the skin with thin steel needles.


The Ling Shu has a description of the 9 needles in scroll 12 (chapter 78.) The detail of their description is much greater than what I'm posting here; the list below comes just from their initial introduction.

1. Big needle with head whose tip is sharp - Shallow puncture
2. Straight needle with round tip - Used for massage
3. Large needle with round tip - Used for massage
4. Tubular needle with lance-like tip - Used for bloodletting
5. Needle that is like a lance - Used to drain pus
6. Needle that is pointed like a hair from a horse's tail; that is both round and sharp; whose body is slightly large - Used to extricate "cruel Qi"
7. Needle whose tip is like the beak of a mosquito or gadfly
8. Needle with long body and sharp tip
9. Needle whose tip is like a [flat] plane, whose tip is slightly round

Needle 1 and its CCM uses correlate with the method which is known today as "sham acupuncture"; shallow needling. The Ling Shu recommends this method for fevers and heat in the body, which in CCM and TCM theory could be true Yang excess (heat), relative Yang excess due to true yin deficiency (deficiency heat), or invasion of pathogenic heat. No mention is made of using particular regions of the body or particular acupoints, although there is mention of seasonal recommendations and prohibitions.

Heat is the root (and branch) of many problems. In TCM, certain point prescriptions for heat are given, and the needle is inserted deeply to attain Qi (De Qi). In Randomized Controlled Trials, Sham acupuncture is considered to be superficial needling at points that are not acupoints. The CCM treatment of heat uses simple superficial needling and does not mention acupoints at all. Therefore the "Sham" Group is actually getting true CCM treatment for heat syndromes. If the disease being researched is primarily a heat syndrome, the results between TCM needling and "Sham" needling will be inconclusive; often, the "sham" group may have better results than the TCM group!

Needles 7, 8 and 9 are considered to be the precursors of modern acupuncture needles. Needle 7 is for "fever and chills, and painful rheumatism in the luo channels." Needle 8 is for "Deep and distant rheumatism." Needle 9 is for "Grasping the Great [True] Qi, which is unable to flow through the gates (points) and joints." Needle 9 is the closest in nature to modern acupuncture needles.

http://www.itmonline.org/image/bleed1.jpg
The picture shows the nine needles, from right to left.
Needles 7 and 8 collectively belong to needle type 7.

Xiao3 Meng4
12-11-2008, 04:54 PM
almost without exception, the conclusions refer to the poor methodological quality of available studies;

of course, one can argue TCM / CCM don't do well when assessed in this manner; and I do not disagree - but if the TCM crowd wants to play the EBM game, then they have to play by the rules, do good research and accept the outcome; otherwise, they should go the other route and say straight out that TCM and other similar forms of medicine are highly subjective in their application, and that while they may be individually successful on a case-by-case basis, no generalized conclusions can be drawn

I agree that most RCTs are not well organized, either due to a lack of proper understanding or a lack of Rigor on the part of the researchers. My post above explains one of the problems that I myself see with the research methods.

Regarding generalized conclusions... that's a tough one. I personally think every patient is unique, and should therefore have a treatment customized for their particular condition... to use a standard "point prescription" for certain syndromes is very TCM... of course, TCM is the way it is because China, in an attempt to gain credit with the West, "modernized" CCM by reformatting the medicine to conform more with Western Biomed: Pasteurian theories of disease, point prescriptions, and taking out many things that the Western biomed community would have a hard time understanding. As a result, I think TCM is not as complete, not as customizable, and certainly not as effective as CCM... yet it's TCM which is being "researched," to play the EBM game as you say. **** politics.

Xiao3 Meng4
12-11-2008, 05:08 PM
Cochrane Review (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/) is considered the "gold standard" for review and meta-analysis of extant research, and has a much different perspective in general...


Wow, cool site! Thanks for that, I've bookmarked it.

taai gihk yahn
12-11-2008, 08:04 PM
I agree that most RCTs are not well organized, either due to a lack of proper understanding or a lack of Rigor on the part of the researchers. My post above explains one of the problems that I myself see with the research methods.
having done research myself, I agree that it is very difficult to design a good study, and in some cases it may not be possible to accurately asses certain things w/RCT's (although anecdotal case studies can be a great alternative!)


Regarding generalized conclusions... that's a tough one. I personally think every patient is unique, and should therefore have a treatment customized for their particular condition... to use a standard "point prescription" for certain syndromes is very TCM... of course, TCM is the way it is because China, in an attempt to gain credit with the West, "modernized" CCM by reformatting the medicine to conform more with Western Biomed: Pasteurian theories of disease, point prescriptions, and taking out many things that the Western biomed community would have a hard time understanding. As a result, I think TCM is not as complete, not as customizable, and certainly not as effective as CCM... yet it's TCM which is being "researched," to play the EBM game as you say. **** politics.
well, you've hit the nail on the head; I agree 100% w/your assessment of TCM versus CCM (my sifu would agree too - he learned CCM from some old guy in NYC Chinatown by the nick-name of "One Needle Wong" - you can imagine what that might have entailed...); TCMis very much a construct and does try to dovetail, almost desperately, w/biomed approach, which sort of strains both...

and yes, everyone is unique - which is why when you use a standard formula to evaluate and treat someone w/something like osteopathy, you get into trouble real fast, because if you use the same maneuver on everyone with similar symptoms, some will get better, others won't, because for some it was the right thing, for others not; and so you will not get statistically significant effect; OTOH, if you individualize the dx/ rx. for each participant, then you get nailed on poor methodology! and as far as the rules of the RCT game go, you fail, and rightly so!

look, if people would read my posts a bit more thoroughly, they might notice that I don't actually dismiss TCM /etc.as a viable modality; heck, my manual background is primarily osteopathic, which takes at least as much heat as TCM, but IMPE works better than anything I've ever come across; but what I am critical about is the whole "have your cake and eat it" bit - meaning that on the one hand TCM tries to paint itself as "alternative" to biomed approach, but then tries to also say that it can be validly judged by biomed standards; so which is it?

so, as you point out, TCM is playing the EBM game for whatever reason - and unfortunately, it's getting creamed; just mention "TCM research studies" and "from China" together and you will get everything from eye rolls to snorts from anyone who has ever tried to decipher one of those things; bottom line: designing good research is hard; it's not just about measuring blood levels and throwing around stats and bingo, instant credibility; it's predicated on a way of thinking that is reductionist first, with the desire to reassemble into the whole, versus the way TCM tries to look at big picture; furthermore, studying the effects of a standardized medication's effect is hard enough - when you get into something like TCM (or manual medicine), where the skill of the operator is a factor, as well as his ability to synthesize a series of interactions that can behave in a very non-linear, complex-systems sort of way, and you are just asking for trouble; as you say, a lot of the intangibles can get lost in the process; but even my OB/GYN wife when talking about RCT's will tell you that they don't tell you the whole story even in "standard" medical practice (to me, RCT's get you into the neighborhood - but you still have to go door to door afterwards); on the flip side, anecdotal case studies can be very valuable because they express those nuances that RCT's can't; and this is my point: I think that a lot of TCM guys want so desperately to be "accepted" or "respected" by allopathic medicine that they figure they have to do this sort of research - and that's where they get nailed, because first off most of them aren't trained in research design / methodology / stats and second because what they do is highly subjective in a lot of ways - like tongue or pulse dx. - each practitioner has their own take on it, and can make it work for them - but they may totally contradict the next guy - meaning that intra-rater reliability is good, but inter-rater su(ks! and right there you have a major problem from an EBM perspective

which is why I say this: personally, I have no problem with the notion that TCM, like a lot of osteopathic stuff, is very subjective, and multifactorial, and that the ability to reproduce results from one person to the next by some sort of formulaic approach just doesn't really work; what's wrong with the unique interaction between doctor and patient being a factor in that person's healing? nothing; but if you want to be able to claim efficacy from this perspective, what you can't do is generalize to a certain herb or acupoint being "effective" for treating something like chronic bronchitis; fact is, we are still human beings, and if placebo effect is operating to varying degrees during TCM or similar types o treatment, I think that's ok, it's part of the process along with the more "objective" aspects (problem is, insurance companies don't want to pay for that, of course);

anyway, don't mistake my skepticism for dismissal - a true skeptic always pushes hard - but when presented with solid evidence will change his opinion based on that evidence; my feeling is that you can't pull any punches: if TCM is going to try to legitimize itself via the EBM route, the biggest favor that we can do is rigorously critique those studies, point out their flaws, really look critically at the data; only in this way will TCM / acup. be taken as credible by the main, if it can stand up to scrutiny at this level; of course, if it can't succeed in this venue, then it should consider letting it go and embrace the fact that it doesn't fit into that mould - meaning it may not be able to make global claims, but at least it has a chance to be taken seriously on its own terms...


Wow, cool site! Thanks for that, I've bookmarked it.
glad you like it - it is the "gold standard" for evaluation of research, meaning that the medical establishment will look to this for guidance - meaning whether we like it or not, we had better pay attention to it...

Doc Stier
12-11-2008, 10:46 PM
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

"Harriet Hall, a retired family practitioner who is interested in quackery, has summed up the significance of acupuncture research in an interesting way:

Acupuncture studies have shown that it makes no difference where you put the needles. Or whether you use needles or just pretend to use needles (as long as the subject believes you used them). Many acupuncture researchers are doing what I call Tooth Fairy science: measuring how much money is left under the pillow without bothering to ask if the Tooth Fairy is real."
I cordially invite anyone who believes the statements quoted above to visit me for empirical clarification on this subject. I will gladly stimulate the appropriate energy point or points in order to cause your body site of choice to become either totally numb and devoid of any feeling or sensation whatsoever, or to become so sensitive that the lightest touch will be quite painful.

Alternately or additionally, I would be happy to dramatically increase or decrease the the internal organ function of your choice by similarly stimulating and manipulating the appropriate acupuncture points. For example, I could cause you to experience multiple, copius bowel movements everyday for next several days, or cause you to have no bowel movement whatsoever for the next week or two. :eek:

Your choice, of course, but be careful what you ask for....! These affects can be convicingly demonstrated whether you believe that I can do so or not, and does not depend on mental suggestion or the like to be effective. :rolleyes:

Real Classical Oriental Medicine is a precise method of energy healing which easily transcends what people believe to true or false about it, and has done so with such success for such a long time, that it has unwittingly created a major problem. Namely, that more than half of the total human population of our planet is Mongoloid by race and living in Asia, they are too healthy on the whole, they live too long, and there is not enough of almost anything to meet their needs.

The World Health Organization (WHO) has estimated that more human suffering, illness and disease has been successfully treated thus far in human history by Classical Chinese/Oriental Medicine than all other healing and medical modalities combined to date.

Not too bad for supposed quackery, eh? ;)

Doc Stier, OMD

sanjuro_ronin
12-12-2008, 06:36 AM
I'll say this about it, I never believed it.
Then I was getting rehab on my left shoulder for tendonitus and an "impingment".
The therapist suggested Accupunture, I laughed and said I don't believe in that stuff.
He replied I had nothing to lose so I said sure.
Well, he put a needle in my hand, on that web between the thumb and index finger and some on shoulder, put a pad that contracted my muscle ( we had used just the pad before to no real difference) and after 20 min session, I had almost total ROM and after 5 sessions I was MUCH better.
That's all I can say.

Xiao3 Meng4
12-12-2008, 09:00 AM
having done research myself, I agree that it is very difficult to design a good study, and in some cases it may not be possible to accurately asses certain things w/RCT's (although anecdotal case studies can be a great alternative!)

My vision of the future of Medicine is an integrated approach. A major component of this is inter-disciplinary respect, understanding and communication. I don't want to oppose other models, I want to work with them for the benefit of my patients.

In this vein, it's very tempting to want to "speak the local language"; to have some kind of Western BioMed explanation as to why what I'm doing actually works... and I will admit that I've collected a few choice pieces of research which I feel to be well designed and up to snuff, or at least vetted by a respectable international body. However, I am 100% in agreement that studies from China are NOT reliable, RCTs are often not able to accurately assess certain components of acupuncture due to their propensity towards generalization, and TCM studies often leave huge gaps in their approach. It's to the point where I feel that I'm better off explaining acupuncture to MDs via the standard "Foreign Body Invasion" model ("Look, it's like simultaneously capitalizing on the inflammatory/autoimmune effects of getting a sliver and the effects of triggering a selected nerve fibre response..." Super crude, limited in scope, but understandable at least.)

The anecdotal case studies method is definitely the route I prefer these days. In Canada, many medical tests are government subsidized, so it's very easy to have patients get a bunch of tests done before beginning treatment, and have them track their progression in part through regular testing. Of course, the changes in their symptoms are also an important component, as are the changes in their signs... although often times acupuncture deals with subclinical signs, so it's sometimes difficult to point to these when talking with a Western Doctor. Naturally, it's easier when there's some kind of true clinical sign. In combination, they provide a strong picture of the results of treatment for myself, the patient, and their doctor.

Actually, my father went to see an acupuncturist in Toronto a few years back. He had quite poor liver funtion and high cholesterol. His bloodwork has always been a cause for concern. After his treatments, he went and had new bloodwork done, and his MD called him in to discuss the results. The first thing he asked was, "are you on any medications or treatments that I'm not aware of?" My dad, being a classic "don't p!ss off the MD" personality, said No. His MD continued on to say, "Your bloodwork is the best it's been it 15 years." If only my dad had explained himself!

The rest of your post was a truly enjoyable and informative read. In no way do I feel you to be criticizing acupuncture, and I commend you for your rigorous approach to research analysis.


I cordially invite anyone who believes the statements quoted above to visit me for empirical clarification on this subject...

Haha Doc, way to throw down the gauntlet! :D


and after 20 min session, I had almost total ROM and after 5 sessions I was MUCH better.
Glad to hear you had a positive experience! :)

SimonM
12-12-2008, 09:11 AM
You going to pay for my bus ticket down to Texas Mr. Strier?

Alternatively you could contact James Randi and try to claim your million bucks.

Doc Stier
12-12-2008, 12:05 PM
You going to pay for my bus ticket down to Texas Mr. Stier?

Alternatively you could contact James Randi and try to claim your million bucks.
Sorry, Simon, you're on your own for the bus fare. ;)

And I don't think my work qualifies for James Randi's challenge, as it does not fall into the 'magic' or 'psychic phenomenon' categories, and besides, he has that whole offer set up in a way which guarantees that nobody will ever collect the million dollar prize. :rolleyes:

Doc

SimonM
12-12-2008, 12:24 PM
No.

Nobody ever has collected the prize because nobody has been able to provide verification under scientific conditions of a supernatural ability.

The ability to regulate the organs of the body by manipulation of an un-measurable, invisible, energy field would certainly qualify as supernatural. And that is what you claim to do right?

taai gihk yahn
12-12-2008, 02:42 PM
I'll say this about it, I never believed it.
Then I was getting rehab on my left shoulder for tendonitus and an "impingment".
The therapist suggested Accupunture, I laughed and said I don't believe in that stuff.
He replied I had nothing to lose so I said sure.
Well, he put a needle in my hand, on that web between the thumb and index finger and some on shoulder, put a pad that contracted my muscle ( we had used just the pad before to no real difference) and after 20 min session, I had almost total ROM and after 5 sessions I was MUCH better.
That's all I can say.

well, I have had similar results with people who have had the run-of-the-mill-PT (that is, crap) and I've gotten my hands on them and they've had full shoulder AROM in minutes; reason is that most shoulder "impingement" has nothing to do w/the suprasipnatus tendon getting stuck, it has to do with hyperteonicity of muscles that resist shoulder abduction (lifting it up sideways), such as intercostals, subscapularis and / or latissimuss, which are easily treatable with one or two simple manuevers; alternately, doing a simple HVLA to the thoracic spine can dramatically increase available AROM as well; once in a while, it's more complex, like treating the same side hip / pelvis (quadratus lumborum being a big culprit here), sometimes you have to squeeze their head for a while as well...

anyway, I don't know what points in the shoulder were needled, but the LI4 pt. seems to have some sort of generalized detonification effect on arm flexors / internal rotators (of which subscap and lats could be considered contributory); anyway, I completely believe that it worked, I just don't consider it that amazing in context of how readily that sort of thing responds to other intelligent interventions - the really amazing thing to me is that so many PT's are just thick-skulled and insist on continually cranking on people's arms with no discernible positive effect...

taai gihk yahn
12-12-2008, 03:07 PM
I cordially invite anyone who believes the statements quoted above to visit me for empirical clarification on this subject. I will gladly stimulate the appropriate energy point or points in order to cause your body site of choice to become either totally numb and devoid of any feeling or sensation whatsoever, or to become so sensitive that the lightest touch will be quite painful.
that's reasonable - I would propose that the mediating medium is the fascial system...assuming you are not jabbing needles into nerves or ganglia, which I suspect you are not...


Alternately or additionally, I would be happy to dramatically increase or decrease the the internal organ function of your choice by similarly stimulating and manipulating the appropriate acupuncture points. For example, I could cause you to experience multiple, copius bowel movements everyday for next several days, or cause you to have no bowel movement whatsoever for the next week or two. :eek:

Your choice, of course, but be careful what you ask for....! These affects can be convicingly demonstrated whether you believe that I can do so or not, and does not depend on mental suggestion or the like to be effective. :rolleyes:
again, considering that we auto-regulate our own auntonomic functions constantly (e.g. - mental stress can result in constipation; panic can lead to loose bowels), this in and of itself is not too difficult to encompass: your being able to do so would simply indicate that your level of skill is up to that sort of thing;

of course, the real way to test this is simple: Doc gets a volunteer to agree to a list of say 10 different body functions, one of which Doc will cause to change via his acup. treatment; however, he doesn't tell the volunteer which one exactly he will pick, but writes it down and puts it in a sealed envelope somewhere; if the volunteer has the same augmented / decreased function as the one Doc writes down, then it's purely objective, we know the treatment caused it; in this case, it's guaranteed not placebo, because Doc has 10 things to choose from, it's too many for someone to replicate on their own (or if they did, you'd know it was self-mediated); it's not unethical, because the subject agreed that any of the 10 would be acceptable if it occurred; I would personally volunteer for that study if I had the opportunity - but unfortunately I am not near Texas...
props to Doc for being willing to "step up" to the plate on this though (I have always had the same perspective: if you don't believe what I do works, come see me; if I can't appreciably fix you in 3 sessions, no charge)


Real Classical Oriental Medicine is a precise method of energy healing which easily transcends what people believe to true or false about it, and has done so with such success for such a long time, that it has unwittingly created a major problem. Namely, that more than half of the total human population of our planet is Mongoloid by race and living in Asia, they are too healthy on the whole, they live too long, and there is not enough of almost anything to meet their needs.
I don't know if I buy that - it's a bit of a stretch; that would imply that the degree of good treatment was uniform and consistent across millennia, it ignores things like climate, diet, genetics, public health programs, etc.


The World Health Organization (WHO) has estimated that more human suffering, illness and disease has been successfully treated thus far in human history by Classical Chinese/Oriental Medicine than all other healing and medical modalities combined to date.
where is this available in print?


Not too bad for supposed quackery, eh? ;)
see, I believe that acupuncture is "real": meaning that having been needled, it has produced sensations unlike any other I've felt from any other modality (although, I can't say it has "fixed" anything more effectively for me than getting a good osteopathic treatment has); but by its very nature, it's ripe for misapplication, misappropriation and misunderstanding; never mind that there are different schools of thought that can conflict with each other, but all of which have at some point or another "helped" patients;

bottom line, as I mentioned earlier, it is a modality that is part of a system of healing that to a large degree is predicated on the skill of the operator and his interaction directly with the patient; as such, I think that when you start using a double-blind, RCT format, you have to be very careful about the design and the outcomes, because I think you can draw a lot of false conclusions, both supporting and "debunking" it;

so, while I am personally not casting doubt on Doc's claims nor calling into question his clinical track record (I would have no way of being able to do that), the most I can say is that I can totally see why some people would consider acupuncture as quackery and feel justified in that opinion; which is why TCM (or whatever) peeps have to be very careful when they want to play the EBM game and start claiming clinical efficacy based on studies that are flawed in design (of which there are many); my point with all this is to state the problem clearly: TCM as a profession, if it wants to be considered kosher from an EBM perspective has to learn how to present itself appropriately in that vein; now, it could go the other way, and just say "look, what we do would not be validly / reliably assessed by that methodology" and come up with other ways to delineate itself; but producing flawed studies with dubious claims does nothing, it only serves to provide the naysayers with even more ammo...

SimonM
12-12-2008, 03:09 PM
Please keep in mind that even if Acupuncture is nothing more than placebo effect (likely) that doesn't stop other "medical" practices from being total bunk. ;)

taai gihk yahn
12-12-2008, 03:13 PM
Please keep in mind that even if Acupuncture is nothing more than placebo effect (likely) that doesn't stop other "medical" practices from being total bunk. ;)

for example:

laparoscopic "cleaning" of the knee has been shown to have absolutely no difference in effect versus sham procedure on patient's reports of symptoms, despite it having been an established form of intervention for decades

MRI's showing lumbar spine bulging discs have been shown to be invalid / unreliable in diagnosing the cause of LBP, because the incidence of "abnormal" disc bulges on MRI are almost as common in asymptomatic people as in symptomatic LBP patients, despite being the final word in diagnosis for years

just 2 examples...

Xiao3 Meng4
12-12-2008, 03:33 PM
The ability to regulate the organs of the body by manipulation of an un-measurable, invisible, energy field would certainly qualify as supernatural. And that is what you claim to do right?

There may be some practitioners (and CMAists) that view Qi as a quantitative force, or "energy field." I personally disagree with this definition.

Qi to me is "the dynamic relationship between two complementary polar aspects comprising a singular whole," or to put it succinctly, "the dynamic relationship of YinYang." It's a "relationship," not an "energy," and as such is qualitative more than quantitative.

So when I practice acupuncture, I'm adjusting the "relationships" of the body's many complementary polar aspects - be it the relationship of the left musculature to the right, the limbs to the trunk, the front stabilising muscles to the back ones, the inflammatory response to the anti-inflammatory response, the sympathetic nervous system to the parasympathetic, autonomic to the somatic, the physiology to the psychology, or other observed relationships. Granted, acupuncture doesn't use the labels I've just used, and many relationships are often adjusted at once: none of the relationships in the above-mentioned “polar aspects comprising a singular whole,” however, have any need for a supernatural force in order to be affected or manipulated. Neither does any other acupuncture claim for that matter, and those who say otherwise are, in my books, on the same level as dishonest (or at least misguided) Kung Fu instructors.


that's reasonable - I would propose that the mediating medium is the fascial system...assuming you are not jabbing needles into nerves or ganglia, which I suspect you are not...


The Fascial system is definitely a very useful target for acupuncture. Some have related it directly to the Jing Jin (Contractile aspect) of the body.

Doc: I do not mean to imply that you are dishonest or misguided because you use the word energy, since I do not think that you mean to imply a supernatural cause to your effects.

taai gihk yahn
12-12-2008, 03:41 PM
My vision of the future of Medicine is an integrated approach. A major component of this is inter-disciplinary respect, understanding and communication. I don't want to oppose other models, I want to work with them for the benefit of my patients.
then a much greater degree of clarification is going to be needed on both ends...


In this vein, it's very tempting to want to "speak the local language"; to have some kind of Western BioMed explanation as to why what I'm doing actually works... and I will admit that I've collected a few choice pieces of research which I feel to be well designed and up to snuff, or at least vetted by a respectable international body. However, I am 100% in agreement that studies from China are NOT reliable, RCTs are often not able to accurately assess certain components of acupuncture due to their propensity towards generalization, and TCM studies often leave huge gaps in their approach. It's to the point where I feel that I'm better off explaining acupuncture to MDs via the standard "Foreign Body Invasion" model ("Look, it's like simultaneously capitalizing on the inflammatory/autoimmune effects of getting a sliver and the effects of triggering a selected nerve fibre response..." Super crude, limited in scope, but understandable at least.)
not too crude; but no reason why you should stop there - I firmly believe that all TCM-related phenomena can be fully explained utilizing contemporary anatomical / physiological knowledge - and really ought to be as well - the challenge is to be able to synthesize the "western" knowledge in such a way that it describes the complex systems-based way in which TCM (and I would argue, osteopathy) effects the organism; because, if it can, it verifies the validity of the approach; this doesn't mean getting rid of the metaphorical descriptors previously used either, it just proves the strength of the approach - if you can describe something works using a system that is "alien", that, to me, confirms the universality! and there is nothing "crude" about describing TCM anatomically / physiologically - I personally think that the "western" way of describing things is inherently elegant and amazing - organic chemical equations describe a certain aspect of the fundamental processes of life - what's crude about that?
personally, I think that the connective tissue matrix in combination with the autonomic nervous system are important mediators in terms of "why" acupuncture "works"...


The anecdotal case studies method is definitely the route I prefer these days. In Canada, many medical tests are government subsidized, so it's very easy to have patients get a bunch of tests done before beginning treatment, and have them track their progression in part through regular testing. Of course, the changes in their symptoms are also an important component, as are the changes in their signs... although often times acupuncture deals with subclinical signs, so it's sometimes difficult to point to these when talking with a Western Doctor. Naturally, it's easier when there's some kind of true clinical sign. In combination, they provide a strong picture of the results of treatment for myself, the patient, and their doctor.
precisely why you need case studies: to highlight why "sub clinical" signs are of relevance;


Actually, my father went to see an acupuncturist in Toronto a few years back. He had quite poor liver funtion and high cholesterol. His bloodwork has always been a cause for concern. After his treatments, he went and had new bloodwork done, and his MD called him in to discuss the results. The first thing he asked was, "are you on any medications or treatments that I'm not aware of?" My dad, being a classic "don't p!ss off the MD" personality, said No. His MD continued on to say, "Your bloodwork is the best it's been it 15 years." If only my dad had explained himself!
great example of complex systems theory at work in the body!


The rest of your post was a truly enjoyable and informative read. In no way do I feel you to be criticizing acupuncture, and I commend you for your rigorous approach to research analysis.
thanks for the kind words; I know I tend to get under some people's collars when I make statements like "there is little reliable and valid clinical evidence that exists supporting the efficacy of acupuncture"; they think I am labeling it as ineffective / quackery; no; I am just stating what the current climate is like; hey, if you are TCM and you want to be "accepted" by the main, this is the way they accept you; don't like it? too bad; do something about it - either come up with better designed studies (which may or may not "solve" things), or have the balls to push through a paradigm shift, in terms of concertedly "opting out" of the EBM game - that is, either TCM can be appropriately encopassed by the EBM approach, or it can't; but it better take a stand soon, because at present, it's getting it's asz kicked by the production of studies that are being ripped to shreds by Cochrane or UpTo Date (http://www.uptodate.com/home/index.html) (which is what most of the MD profession regularly uses to get its "bottom line" summarized info on all the tons of research out there, and they evaluate studies from a very strict EBM approach); incidentally, PT's had sort of the same problem w/EBM approach - at one point the joke was "PT's just better stop doing research on what they do, because they're going to run out of modalities pretty fast if they keep 'proving' that none of them work"...as a result, the research design got tighter / smarter and more adept at teasing out subtle nuances when assessing things like manual therapy, which is very difficult to study "objectively" for a variety of reasons;

anyway, I very much appreciate your balanced perspective as well - I respect that it takes a very balanced and secure mindset to be on the one hand very personally / professionally invested in a given approach and on the other hand to be able to discuss it objectively, for all its pluses and minuses, without getting defensive and emotional about it (unlike some people on this board...); anyway, onward and upward!

Xiao3 Meng4
12-12-2008, 04:02 PM
not too crude; but no reason why you should stop there - I firmly believe that all TCM-related phenomena can be fully explained utilizing contemporary anatomical / physiological knowledge - and really ought to be as well - the challenge is to be able to synthesize the "western" knowledge in such a way that it describes the complex systems-based way in which TCM (and I would argue, osteopathy) effects the organism; because, if it can, it verifies the validity of the approach; this doesn't mean getting rid of the metaphorical descriptors previously used either, it just proves the strength of the approach - if you can describe something works using a system that is "alien", that, to me, confirms the universality! and there is nothing "crude" about describing TCM anatomically / physiologically - I personally think that the "western" way of describing things is inherently elegant and amazing - organic chemical equations describe a certain aspect of the fundamental processes of life - what's crude about that?
personally, I think that the connective tissue matrix in combination with the autonomic nervous system are important mediators in terms of "why" acupuncture "works"...

Bingo!

As far as the functional application of Acupuncture goes, I'm completely satisfied with the theoretical and practical framework. No need to change anything, it works fine. At the same time, I'm very interested in finding ways to describe it through anatomy/physiology. What I have so far is, in my view, in its infancy (hence crude), however I'll start a new thread on the topic with what I have, I'd love to discuss it!


anyway, onward and upward!
:)

taai gihk yahn
12-12-2008, 04:13 PM
As far as the functional application of Acupuncture goes, I'm completely satisfied with the theoretical and practical framework. No need to change anything, it works fine.
right - I have never suggested disposing of the "classical" system per se, nor do I feel that it would make any sense to try to "add" to it;


At the same time, I'm very interested in finding ways to describe it through anatomy/physiology. What I have so far is, in my view, in its infancy (hence crude), however I'll start a new thread on the topic with what I have, I'd love to discuss it!
please do so; I would be very interested in your perspective; I have similar ideas about how taiji / so-called "internal" principles can be described in that vein as well, and have talked about that for some time now here (usually to the scornful reply that so-called "western" approach is and always will be woefully inadequate to the task - my response is that maybe those making that statement just haven't studied "western" stuff enough to employ it in a "live" manner...);

Doc Stier
12-13-2008, 11:03 PM
No.

Nobody ever has collected the prize because nobody has been able to provide verification under scientific conditions of a supernatural ability.

The ability to regulate the organs of the body by manipulation of an un-measurable, invisible, energy field would certainly qualify as supernatural. And that is what you claim to do right?
No, Simon, that is not what I do. :rolleyes:

I think of my work as more of a type of bioelectrical troubleshooting and repair, not as anything supernatural. I simply determine to the best of my trained ability where bioelectrical overloads and short-outs are occuring within someone's body, and match these diagnostic findings with the presenting symptoms in order to effectively correct the underlying pivotal causes. This process is based in great part on more than three decades of successfully treating the same conditions again and again in thousands of patients.

The results are totally measurable in that the same treatment methods, consisting of specific acupuncture point prescriptions, herbal formulae, and other auxilliary treatment modalities, will almost always produce the same results when applied to a specific health condition and it's usual symptoms. This has been repeatedly duplicated in my personal clinic experience probably 95-97% of the time on average. There's nothing magical or supernatural about it at all. :p

However, every treatment modality, both Eastern and Western, has known limitations which surface over and over again in the inability to effectively treat specific health conditions, illnesses, and diseases. I choose not to work on these particular problems, because I know that the probability of successful resolution is only 50% or less. Fortunately, there are a great variety of health problems that nearly always respond favorably. I will gladly address any of these problems with confident expectations of a successful outcome.

It's just like the professional plumber who came out to my house some years ago to fix a problem with our plumbing. The man came into the house, walked down to the basement, looked at all of the pipes and joints, and then went out to his truck again. He came back inside with a big pipe wrench, went back downstairs to the basement and knocked on a couple of the pipes and one joint with his pipe wrench while I watched him. He then said: "OK, try it now." I did, and everything worked perfectly once again. He charged me $65. :eek:

When I questioned the amount of his fee he said: "That's $5 for knocking on the pipes and $60 for knowing where to knock." :cool:

Was his success with such a small, simple effort magical or supernatural? Most certainly not. I couldn't really argue with his explanation, because knowing where to apply the acupuncture and which herbal formula to prepare is crucial to my work in a similar way.

Doc ;)

Lee Chiang Po
12-14-2008, 09:50 PM
Back in the mid to late 70's a group of young cardiologists went to China to study a very new form of open heart surgery. The thing that captured their attention more than anything else was the fact that they were using accupuncture as an anesthetic rather than gas or strong meds to render the patient pain free and unable to move during the surgery. It was a woman and she was completely awake and speaking with the nurse during the proceedure. The surgeon explained the benefits of accupuncture were that there was no respiratory problems afterwards, and no sickness associated with the meds.
Accupuncture, like most anything else, can not cure all ills. It has to be curable first.

SimonM
12-15-2008, 09:01 AM
Back in the mid to late 70's a group of young cardiologists went to China to study a very new form of open heart surgery. .

That was based on an anecdotal story told by one of Nixon's diplomatic aides. What people frequently forget to mention (or out-right deny) was the fact that conventional anastetic was also used.

herb ox
12-15-2008, 09:35 AM
True, they did use anesthetics, but at drastically lower concentrations than typically used. I have a textbook on acupuncture anesthesia with this study in it.

As for the World Health Organization - see this link here (http://www.who.int/medicinedocs/en/d/Js4926e/#Js4926e.5) for a list of 28 disorders shown thru controlled trials effectively treated by acu. MD's and other naysayers who claim TCM has no scientific evidence simply have never done a literature review with an open mind. There is plenty of evidence based medicine which supports the use of TCM.

Why is it that the WHO acknowledges CTM/TCM/Acu/Herbs as good medicine, but the FDA and other American based so-called 'medical experts' don't. For that, you'd have to do your homework - but I can tell you this - 80% of FDA employees go on to take highly paid positions for major pharmaceutical companies. Big pharma manipulates data and funding to ensure negative data about their products will never be made public.

Good science? Hardly. In my opinion, man cannot be trusted. Nature guides the way.
Now, go take your prozac while I practice my magical hooey qigong exercises!

peace

herb ox

Doc Stier
12-15-2008, 10:02 AM
Simon:

A few questions for you:

1) Have you ever formally studied Oriental/Chinese Medicine at an accredited school?

2) Have you personally ever been treated with Oriental/Chinese Medicine techniques by anyone who was formally educated in the application of these modalities?

3) What exactly is the primary reason for your generally negative perspective of Oriental/Chinese Medicine?

Doc

SimonM
12-15-2008, 10:18 AM
1) No.
2) Yes.
3) I have no problem with properly tested medicine regardless of point of origin. But when people try to pass off the placebo effect as real medicine. Well... that is quackery.

Doc Stier
12-15-2008, 11:15 AM
Ha! Ha! What a hoot! :D

So, Simon, in your esteemed, but totally uneducated opinion regarding acupuncture, it works solely through a placebo effect induced via the power of positive suggestion? :rolleyes:

That must be the reason that Veterinary Acupuncture has been the fastest growing veterinary speciality in the past 10-15 years time. After all, everyone knows how animals of all kinds are easily influenced by the power of suggestion, thereby vastly increasing their positive expectations of benefit from the acupuncture treatments. Right? ;)

Doc

SimonM
12-15-2008, 12:00 PM
All that proves is that it's popular flim-flam. :D

herb ox
12-15-2008, 12:45 PM
Hopeless...

there must be a point we can needle on SimonM, right?

'tis true - veterinary acupuncture gets great results - there's no placebo effect in animal research, which is why they are often used for medical studies, so, SimonM, what it proves is not flim flam, rather it shows there is a documentable effect other than produced by the human mind.

The only reason MD's call placebo effect 'quackery' is because they can't profit from it. And yet, even MD's give placebo pills with high cure rates- a recent survey shows up to 50% of MD's use it. check out this link for the article. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-12-10-placebo_N.htm) By that standard, you have to call 50% of physicians quacks. That may include your MD as well.


ox

SimonM
12-15-2008, 01:02 PM
I am a strong advocate against biomedical testing of non-human animals; particularly primates.

That being said if you have some sort of documented effect (preferrably using a double-blind methodology) provided by acupuncture on animal test subjects and can point to a journal entry on the issue I'll set aside my ethical objections to the methodology and read it.

Furthermore have I EVER, even ONCE, suggested that quackery is limited to TCM/ACM/MCM exclusively?

Doc Stier
12-15-2008, 01:44 PM
Simon:

I am beginning to think that your attachment to double blind study and your very dim, limited viewpoint on this topic is perhaps due to this condition.....! :eek:

couch
12-17-2008, 06:03 AM
As a Registered Acupunk and Chinese medicine practitioner, I'd like to weigh in my opinion on the whole thing. (Good job by Christian so far!)

Regarding the idea of double-blind clinic trials and all that western medicine: I could care less. I see over 30 patients per week in my private practice and I would say that over 90% walk out of here after 10 weekly sessions feeling much better. From 'simple' pain to complicated medical problems, it just works and that's all I care about.

Chinese medicine is scientific in its own right - it just doesn't 'look' like western medicine and who ever said that was a bad thing? The ancient Chinese looked at the stars, moon, sun and other patterns in nature and mapped the macrocosm (the universe) on the microcosm (the human body). In the case of herbs, it doesn't get any more scientific to know that eating 3 mushrooms makes you feel better from fatigue, but 4 kills you.

So from my perspective, if it works like it does for me at such a high percentile - I could give a crap about some study on this or that to appease all the 'western' thinkers. Maybe all the 'scientists' see the world wrong? Maybe I see the world without any 'sterile coloured glasses' on and they're insane and I'm not.

Best,
Kenton

Xiao3 Meng4
12-17-2008, 01:50 PM
Here's a Western Study demonstrating one of the identifiable NON-PLACEBO effects of acupuncture.

Dr. Bruce Pomeranz is an MD, Professor, CM at McGill University, PhD at Harvard in 1967, Assistant Professor at M.I.T. 1966-1968, Professor of Zoology and Physiology at University of Toronto since 1968.

Taken from "Basics of Acupuncture" (Stux, Berman, Pomeranz; Springer-Verlag Berlin, Heidelberg, New York, 2003)


Evidence for Endorphins in Acupuncture Analgesia (Pages 16-17)

The other early naloxone* study was by Pomeranz and Chiu(1) In awake mice; they used the mouse squeak latency paradigm and gave EA [Electro-Acupuncture] at LI.4. Numerous control groups were used in this latter experiment in an attempt to pick out some of the possible artifacts. Each group received one of the following treatments: EA alone, EA plus saline, EA plus i.v. naloxone, Sham EA in a non-acupuncture point, naloxone alone, saline alone, or no treatment at all (just handling, restraint, and repeated pain testing.) The results were unequivocal; naloxone completely blocked AA; sham EA produced no effect; and naloxone alone produced very little hyperalgesia (not enough to explain reduction of AA by subtraction.) Moreover, the results in mice and in humans indicated, first, that AA was not a psychological effect and secondly, that AA was truly blocked by naloxone. In a later study, Cheng and Pomeranz(2) produced a dose-response curve for naloxone and found that increasing doses produced increasing blockade.

*Naloxone is an endorphin antagonist. Researchers were able to identify endorphin production as one of the mechanisms for acupuncture analgesia by showing that naloxone blocks AA. Furthermore, it was discovered that Naloxone only prevents AA from initiating, and does not negate AA that has already been administered.

Note: The first Naloxone treatment implied by the first sentence was done on humans.

(1)Pomeranz, B, Chiu D (1976) Naloxone blocks acupuncture analgesia and causes hyperalgesia: endorphin is implicated. Life Sci 19: 1757-1762

(2)Cheng R, Pomeranz B (1979) Electroacupuncture analgesia is mediated by stereospecific opiate receptors and is reversed by antagonists of type 1 receptors. Life Sci 26: 631-639

Xiao3 Meng4
12-17-2008, 02:14 PM
So from my perspective, if it works like it does for me at such a high percentile - I could give a crap about some study on this or that to appease all the 'western' thinkers.

I find that with acupuncture, success rates are very much related to the practitioner, which makes it hard to establish generalized research guidelines. At best, Researchers can pick out and identify specific actions, but I doubt anyone will ever come up with a good picture of how acupuncture capitalizes on those specific actions in concert. Oh, wait, someone already did... it's called CHINESE MEDICINE. ;)

Kudos on having happy clients. :)

couch
12-18-2008, 07:02 AM
I find that with acupuncture, success rates are very much related to the practitioner, which makes it hard to establish generalized research guidelines. At best, Researchers can pick out and identify specific actions, but I doubt anyone will ever come up with a good picture of how acupuncture capitalizes on those specific actions in concert. Oh, wait, someone already did... it's called CHINESE MEDICINE. ;)

Kudos on having happy clients. :)

I think that all types of medicines have blind spots, however, there is more than meets the eye out there, right? Something unquantifiable, if you will. There are many people running around, trying to smash two atoms together - trying to find the secret to life...and it won't happen. We're not supposed to find it all out. It's supposed to be the great mystery and we have to learn to accept that. :)

I agree that many results are practitioner dependent, too. What I also find absolutely fascinating is that I can treat a person with TCM, someone else can use 5-element, someone else can use Kikko-style and another could use Japanese meridian therapy...and we could all achieve the same results!!! So what's really going on here? Intention? Are all equally scientific methods in their own right? Is it practitioner dependent?

Very cool, in the least.

How's your weather in NB? It snows and then rains here...third time this winter we've gone from -17 to +9 in two days. No wonder everyone is coming in complaining of W-C and W-H!!!

herb ox
12-18-2008, 09:34 AM
ahh... Intention!

... now we're getting somewhere!

Some have postulated why so-called 'sham' acupuncture works as well in some situations as real acupuncture - the intent of the person administering the acupuncture determines the result.

cheers

herb ox

Xiao3 Meng4
12-18-2008, 02:18 PM
I agree that many results are practitioner dependent, too. What I also find absolutely fascinating is that I can treat a person with TCM, someone else can use 5-element, someone else can use Kikko-style and another could use Japanese meridian therapy...and we could all achieve the same results!!! So what's really going on here? Intention? Are all equally scientific methods in their own right? Is it practitioner dependent?

I agree that intention is important and vital.

HOWEVER

For intention to be effective, it must be integrated with reality.

It seems as though many alternative practitioners view intention as the be-all, end-all of medicine. "As long as your intent is clear, then you'll be successful" is an oft-repeated mantra. I'm not suggesting anyone on this thread has repeated such a claim, I'm just addressing the idea that many practitioners do have this viewpoint. A good portion of my class held this perception while I was in school.

To those that follow such a train of thought, I urge you to try your hands at flint-knapping (the making of stone tools with other stone tools.)

If, as is claimed, intent is all you need, then it should be a simple matter to knap a blade out of stone, as long as your intentions are clear and focused.

Nuh-uh. Doesn't work that way. The intention may be clear, but without an understanding of the tools and medium involved, you'll be lucky to knap something into an egg shape, if that. More likely, the stone you're trying to shape will break in an unexpected way, or the tools you're using will break instead.

Intention, however, is very powerful in the sense that if my intention is strong enough, I will find or devise the tools necessary to knap my stone. They say necessity is the mother of invention... and necessity and intention are like conjoined twins. :)

With intention, I can persevere and learn the nature of stone, and the relationship my tools have with it. Once having learned it's nature (how to identify its cracks, its weak spots, its strong spots, etc,) I am able to pick and choose where to start, where to finish, what pieces to remove and how, and what pieces to leave behind. As such, 3 cavemen with 3 different tools and 3 different stones, when asked to knap identical blades, will all go about it in a different way yet achieve very similar results.

Likewise, in Medicine, a practitioner's intention can guide them towards the tools and understanding they need. What I think is key, though, is that TOOLS AND UNDERSTANDING ARE NEEDED FOR INTENTION TO MANIFEST. Whereas a flinknapper must understand their tools and the nature (diagnosis) of their stone, a medical practitioner must understand their tools - be it massage, needles, herbs or drugs - and the nature (diagnosis) of their patient. With this understanding, a practitioner is able manifest their intention and pick their treatment methods appropriately. The end result is an effect which matches the practitioner's intention. With intention only, and no tools, no understanding of the nature of their patient, and no understanding of the relationship between their tools and their patient, who knows what will happen!? Iatrogenic disease, anyone?

So, if you ever come across a healer who claims that what they do works because of their intention alone, beware! Bewaaaare! And ask what exactly it is that they mean. If they start explaining it as being separate from anything ("Like, I just send good vibes through the needles and you get better, dude") then run away. If they see intention as linked to something real (ie not supernatural,) then you're good to go. :)


How's your weather in NB? It snows and then rains here...third time this winter we've gone from -17 to +9 in two days. No wonder everyone is coming in complaining of W-C and W-H!!!

The weather's been about the same... lots of wind, lots of precipitation, but the temperature's swinging wildly here to. We went from +12C to -18C overnight this past weekend, and it's been like that a bunch of times already.

Reverend Tap
12-18-2008, 10:18 PM
Here's the sum total of my personal experience with acupuncture, which I think may be relevant.

I have been getting drastically sick once every five months for a couple years now. When I say once every five months, I mean it; five months of totally nothing, one full day of horrible sicky, the next day I feel fine and the process repeats. I've forgotten the precise number of days the intervals have been but it's almost been clockwork. Each and every time, the one day's been bad enough to land me in the ER, and each and every time, I've been treated symptomatically, given a bunch of tests, and sent out the door with a shrug. This at a facility that's been getting "Top 100" status for several years, as well as seeing an outside specialist. So, I figured I had nothing to lose by trying the local TCM clinic. I'm not gonna say the practitioner cured it; he didn't, and indeed was as perplexed by it as all the people I've seen have been. But he did give a tentative assessment and had me do one acupuncture session. One needle each in the wrists, feet, ankles, and one in the sternum. Felt really bizarre, but having gotten tattoos I'm familiar with the crazy things nerves do in such situations.

Now, the reason I mention it when the problem I went in for was unsolved (and I will say that I had no particular expectations either way going in, just figured it was something else I could try), is that it seems to have cured my night sweats. For years, right up until the night before I went in to the clinic, I had problems with dehydration due to my sweating buckets while sleeping, but it was something I was so used to, I don't recall even mentioning it during the interview. Immediately after that session, bam. Not sweating at night anymore (well, not unless I'm actually overheating anyhow). Nothing significant changed in my lifestyle at the same time, and anyway the night sweating had persisted through several massive lifestyle changes over the years.

I know anecdotal evidence is sketchy at best scientifically speaking, but I don't think my situation exactly lends itself to shouting "placebo" when the apparent side-effect was something I wasn't even thinking about. Hell, I wasn't even the one who noticed the change; my wife did, since suddenly that night I didn't seem to be melting anymore.

Take it as you will.

Jack Squat
12-30-2008, 09:42 PM
There are many placebo-controlled, double-blind studies on acupuncture, both on animals and humans.

For human studies, visit Medscape, the internets largest provider of free, peer-reviewed medical studies (www.medscape.com) and simply search "acupuncture". A good review of the current published medical literature can be found in the study article titled "Acupuncture: A Clinical Review" which comes up when searching acupuncture at Medscape.

There are other websites which publish peer-reviewed medical literature, but they charge to view anything more than the abstracts (PubMed for example).

Research in the U.S. is currently being done thanks to grants from the NIH which finally became available in the mid 1990's. Many difficulties with acupuncture research including the task of making the studies double-blind and placebo-controlled, but after a rocky start in the 1970's, the field has produced solid research. There is a speciality for physicians called "medical acupuncture" and they have their own peer-reviewed journal which publishes evidence-based clinical papers and research findings. The journal is called The Journal of the American Academy of Medical Acupuncture. Google it and I'm sure you will find more information.

Hope this helps all involved...

Jack

GeneChing
01-20-2016, 09:43 AM
I don't make the news. I just report it. :)


19 January 2016
Acupuncture for Menopausal Hot Flashes: A Randomized Trial (http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2481811)
Carolyn Ee, MBBS; Charlie Xue, PhD; Patty Chondros, PhD; Stephen P. Myers, PhD; Simon D. French, PhD; Helena Teede, PhD; and Marie Pirotta, PhD

Background: Hot flashes (HFs) affect up to 75% of menopausal women and pose a considerable health and financial burden. Evidence of acupuncture efficacy as an HF treatment is conflicting.

Objective: To assess the efficacy of Chinese medicine acupuncture against sham acupuncture for menopausal HFs.

Design: Stratified, blind (participants, outcome assessors, and investigators, but not treating acupuncturists), parallel, randomized, sham-controlled trial with equal allocation. (Australia New Zealand Clinical Trials Registry: ACTRN12611000393954)

Setting: Community in Australia.

Participants: Women older than 40 years in the late menopausal transition or postmenopause with at least 7 moderate HFs daily, meeting criteria for Chinese medicine diagnosis of kidney yin deficiency.

Interventions: 10 treatments over 8 weeks of either standardized Chinese medicine needle acupuncture designed to treat kidney yin deficiency or noninsertive sham acupuncture.

Measurements: The primary outcome was HF score at the end of treatment. Secondary outcomes included quality of life, anxiety, depression, and adverse events. Participants were assessed at 4 weeks, the end of treatment, and then 3 and 6 months after the end of treatment. Intention-to-treat analysis was conducted with linear mixed-effects models.

Results: 327 women were randomly assigned to acupuncture (n = 163) or sham acupuncture (n = 164). At the end of treatment, 16% of participants in the acupuncture group and 13% in the sham group were lost to follow-up. Mean HF scores at the end of treatment were 15.36 in the acupuncture group and 15.04 in the sham group (mean difference, 0.33 [95% CI, −1.87 to 2.52]; P = 0.77). No serious adverse events were reported.

Limitation: Participants were predominantly Caucasian and did not have breast cancer or surgical menopause.

Conclusion: Chinese medicine acupuncture was not superior to noninsertive sham acupuncture for women with moderately severe menopausal HFs.

Primary Funding Source: National Health and Medical Research Council.

herb ox
01-25-2016, 04:57 PM
I don't make the news. I just report it. :)

Well, of course I was interested in this study. Unfortunately the outcome measurements given in the abstract are essentially meaningless given they have no context outside the article itself other than to show there was no statistically significant difference between the two groups.

Verum (i.e. "real") acupuncture vs "sham acupuncture" is a poor measure of efficacy as "sham" acupuncture is not physiologically inert. Moreover, there is no "non-treatment" or "conventional treatment" control group to compare the outcomes to.

What most "sham" controlled studies find is that verum acupuncture and sham acupuncture both bring improvement in symptoms, often significantly, when compared to non-intervention groups or conventional treatment groups.

The popular media jumps on this and says "acupuncture no better than a sham" (which raises my hackles) - but really it is not a correct conclusion especially when it is based on a crappily written abstract that gives insufficient information to base an educated opinion upon. No news article I have read on this study actually goes into the details of the study which implies poor reporting based upon the abstract alone or simply parroting other news articles that are saying the same thing....

GeneChing
03-16-2016, 10:14 AM
This might have nothing to do with acupuncture. Maybe it was a Kiss of the Dragon (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?5108-Jet-Li-s-Kiss-of-the-Dragon)assassin who just missed his mark.

Oh wait...that would still fall under acupuncture. :p


Pain in the neck: doctors find Chinese man’s aches and numbness caused by needles inside his body (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/1923095/pain-neck-doctors-find-chinese-mans-aches-and-numbness-caused)
PUBLISHED : Friday, 11 March, 2016, 4:17pm
UPDATED : Saturday, 12 March, 2016, 4:42pm
Kathy Gao kathy.gao@scmp.com

http://cdn2.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486x302/public/images/methode/2016/03/11/beb7645e-e757-11e5-9c87-1b0e9fb1e112_1280x720.jpg?itok=NahRc9uE
The two needles found inside a Chinese man's body (left), which were spotted after a scan carried out in hospital. Photos: Chutian Metropolis Daily

Doctors examined a Chinese man suffering from neck aches and numbness in his hands found he had two needles stuck inside his body, mainland media reports.

Surgeons have since removed the needles, which appeared to be moving around near to the abdomen of the man from Wuhan, the capital city of Hubei province, Chutian Metropolis Daily reported on Friday.

Both needles had already started to corrode, which led doctors to believe that they had probably been inside his body for the past two years.

The discovery was made after the man, identified in the report only by his family name, Wu, was given a computer scan at a hospital after complaining of pains in his neck and numbness in his hands.

Wu, 43, said he had no idea how the needles had come to be stuck inside his body.

One needle, which was 2cm long, was removed from close to his abdominal cavity. The other needle, which was more than 5cm long, was found inside the abdominal cavity.

Examinations carried out on two different occasions also revealed that the positions of the needles had changed, suggesting that the needles had been moving inside his body, the report said.

Doctors at the Hubei Provincial Hospital of Traditional Chinese Medicine were able to remove both needles using minimally invasive surgery.

herb ox
04-11-2016, 12:13 PM
9765

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Just tape these little man-made stones to your body and the rest is magic! Treats everything... "No Needles, no inhaling, no ingestion, no drama"


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These all-natural 6 acupuncture DIY crystals are made from a combination of premium gemstones, volcanic zeolites and breathable silicon. When applied directly to your skin, these crystals heat up, before cooling down. The energetic stimulation you will recieve is clinically proven to be effective. Now, you can Do-It-Yourself acupuncture at a fraction of the cost.

This could be the death blow to acupuncturists around the world!

:rolleyes:

And I love the stock photography for "Safety is top priority" - looks like it should be used for birth control or something.:p

SoCo KungFu
04-11-2016, 05:22 PM
Verum (i.e. "real") acupuncture vs "sham acupuncture" is a poor measure of efficacy as "sham" acupuncture is not physiologically inert.

It doesn't need to be, this is a ludicrous assumption


Moreover, there is no "non-treatment" or "conventional treatment" control group to compare the outcomes to.

There are many ways to control.


What most "sham" controlled studies find is that verum acupuncture and sham acupuncture both bring improvement in symptoms, often significantly, when compared to non-intervention groups or conventional treatment groups.

I see you still don't know how to interpret an effect size...


The popular media jumps on this and says "acupuncture no better than a sham" (which raises my hackles) - but really it is not a correct conclusion especially when it is based on a crappily written abstract that gives insufficient information to base an educated opinion upon. No news article I have read on this study actually goes into the details of the study which implies poor reporting based upon the abstract alone or simply parroting other news articles that are saying the same thing....

You, complaining about people stopping at the abstract? Ohhhh there's some irony....

herb ox
04-13-2016, 12:18 PM
You again? Obviously you have time to kill SoCoKungFu :p

Enjoy arguing with the wind, Sir.

Mor Sao
04-21-2016, 06:17 AM
Way too many sissies and girly men seem to think we want to listen to their hysterical *****ing and moaning.

Jimbo
04-21-2016, 08:03 AM
My first experience with acupuncture was 12 years ago when I was suffering from a serious case of tendinitis in my right elbow (tennis/pitcher's elbow?). I had it for weeks, and was so serious I could barely put on and take off a shirt by myself without difficulty. I did NOT want to get a cortisone shot for it, and suffered until a friend of mine was visiting back in town. He's an experienced acupuncturist and always takes his needles/kit wherever he goes. He gave me a general assessment by asking various questions. Then he had me lie on the floor and put the needles wherever he put them, and had me lay there for about 45 minutes. Then he took them out, had me stand up and that was that. Although I always believed in the possibility of acupuncture, I felt no different when I stood up, so I thought, "Well, I guess that didn't work."

Next morning when I woke up, I tried moving my elbow and it was totally healed! And it never came back. Now, someone might say it's all bunk, or a placebo effect. To that I say BS. It couldn't have been a placebo effect, because I already half-believed it wouldn't help my situation. And I didn't care either way; it worked, and that's all I care about. Since then, I occasionally will get acupuncture if I start feeling tendinitis in my wrists or hands (I'm a professional massage therapist). Usually it takes one or two treatments to go away; sometimes more, but not often.

That friend who treated my elbow tendinitis was one of the first graduates of Pacific College of Oriental Medicine (PCOM), which is a school with extremely high standards. I also know others who are graduates of PCOM or are in the program right now. The acupuncturists I occasionally see now are all PCOM alumni.

BTW, my friend who treated me that time did it for free.

Former PKA world kickboxing champion Bill "Superfoot" Wallace said he thought acupuncture was a bunch of nonsense until he suffered an injury to his left leg in the early 1970s. He kicked almost exclusively with that left leg, due to a serious judo injury to his right knee years earlier. He was told by doctors he would never kick with that left leg again. Elvis brought in an acupuncturist to work on Wallace. Wallace claimed he felt energy moving immediately, and eventually he completely regained his ability to kick with his left leg. He said he didn't understand how it worked, but he's a believer now.

GeneChing
06-23-2017, 09:15 AM
Actually, this is totally OT. I only post it here because there are needles. And it's one of those stories that needs to be shared on this forum. :p


After shoving 15 needles up his pee hole over past year, man finally forced to seek medical help (http://shanghaiist.com/2017/06/23/needle-*****.php)
BY ALEX LINDER IN NEWS ON JUN 23, 2017 10:50 PM

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/needle_*****.jpg

Recently, a man arrived at a hospital in Shenyang, Liaoning province to receive treatment after sticking more than a dozen needles up his urethra.
The man, in his thirties, had been shoving sewing needles inside his ***** for the past year, the victim of some extremely undesirable mental disorder. Eventually, he couldn't take the pain any longer and was forced to seek medical help. Doctors successfully removed 15 needles from his urinary tract, some of which had already begun to rust.

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/alexlinder/needle_*****2.jpg

One of the doctors who performed the operation on the man urged those with friends and family members who practiced similar "unusual hobbies" to help seek out medical attention as soon as possible -- rather than wait around until they've shoved over a dozen needles up their pee hole.
[Images via Pear Video]

The links won't work because our forum censors *****, but I'm sure you can figure out what that is.