Where is CMA headed? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Lucas

12-11-2008, 10:10 PM

Everyone has an opinion. Thats the great thing about being an individual.

I finally just read this Ezine (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=679) article by Gene Ching and Gigi Oh. (nice article btw)

If you have not read that yet, I urge you to do so in its entirety. The opinions shared by Master Zhao Changjun are the result of years of experience. My opinion is that his thoughts are very insightful as to what the future possibilities for CMA are.

Looking back at the attempted and failed entry into the Olympics, wushu has definately been effected. In connection with the large publicity that professional MMA gets, and the consumption of mass communication and media sources have given a large range of people more tools to determine what fighting is.

Its blatantly obvious that modern wushu is not fighting.

Like anything else in the world everything is constantly growing and changing. Numbered are the days when people will so be easily fooled by charlitans and frauds.

I'm not implying that there is a connection to wushu and fraudulent martial arts, rather that each have a defining line between themselves and what is actual combat.

Modern wushu however has the ability to capture the artistic soul in a person, and like all artists, there is a striving to display the beauty of their art.

Wushu and Sport Fighting are known to very large degrees throughout the world. When lined up side by side, there is a clear distinction of difference. What goes into the training and what the goals and end results are of such training.

Traditional foundational training of CMA, in my opinion, is one of the most important aspects of CMA, and what gives CMA a great uniqueness in the world.

I believe that, in regards to CMA, Master Zhao Changjun's method of development for his students is a very good thing. This would give students the opportunity to focus on the combative or the artistic aspect of CMA, depending on how one personally develops. Not everyone is a fighter.

In regards to wushu, it would be my wish to see more freedom allowed to practitioners, a more available platform for these people to display their souls to us.

The foundational training that would give people experience in both worlds before gaining a focus, would be a great aid in free expression of modern wushu. Part of the artistic aspects of martial arts is the warriors spirit itself.

How many times have you seen a well executed form with no spirit?

Being too categorized and confined only limits what people are capable of becoming.

This of course is just what I would like to see happen. Fortunately, ill be able to watch it all play out and see what happens. However I do personally feel that modern wushu has a place among cma. For what it is.

Wushu is at a point where it can be excepted for what it is, and its own uniqueness in the world of martial arts. A more artistic expression in a format derived from martial developments.

Today traditional chinese martial arts has many opportunities to test itself outside of itself. More and more people are heading in this direction. Many of TCMA's developed masters are very open minded and excepting of the platforms that the world has to offer.

Its the open minded ness and the desire to persevere that will keep the traditional from dying out. Mixing it up with others and pressure testing what you learn will always be the spice that makes a good fighter.

Passing on the knowledge of your art to the next generation is part of what will keep the traditional arts alive, another part is giving people with fight oriented goals the opportunity to test themselves and progress, using the material that is taught to them.

Regardless of the platform, as long as there is true pressure testing being done, we can continue to have our arts progress through the generations.

There is a wide range of sport combats available to choose from. most of these platforms have been developed within their respective regions/styles over the years of development for this very purpose.

Being able to live within the freedom that is art and the expression of your soul will always be a part of martial arts.

Whether this expression is through combat or presentation, the warriors spriit will always be one of the most important factors.

For the future of TCMA, its my belief that this same spirit will always be the driving factor behind why the traditional will never die.

Whats your opinion?

sanjuro_ronin

12-12-2008, 06:43 AM

I think that China didn't know how to play the game like the Koreans did to get TKD into the olympics.
Alos Wushu was a bad choice, they could have gone with San Shou or made a "new" system of Shuai Jiao that included strikes and subs and such, to take advantage of the MMA boom.

As for CMA, more san shou/sanda gyms will pop up to take advantage of the MMA trend.
The TCMA will still be there for those that want it.
Ninjutsu is still around so...

MightyB

12-12-2008, 07:54 AM

TCMA needs to decide what it's going to be: A Self Defense System, A Sportive Combative System, A method of Personal Development, A Path to Enlightenment, Etc... whatever TCMA is supposed to be, it has to BE IT. No exceptions.

Can there be benefits that are gained that aren't it's intended meaning- yes, but those benefits are -- cursory at best.

For instance- if it's supposed to be for enlightenment- could you develop some self defense skills by practicing it?--- maybe- but they will be lackluster in comparison to what else is out there.

Lucas

12-12-2008, 10:41 AM

as far as TCMA is concerned what I think would be cool would be sanshou + an aspect of wushu. Presentation of your style.

If you are doing TCMA, there is a chance you have a form or two up your sleeve. It would be cool to see a display of someones form before they fight.

Kind of like a lead up to the fight, jump up to the Lei Tai platfrom and show us your form, balance, speed, power, etc. Then after each guy has shown off a bit, they beat the snot out of each other. not forms in the modern wushu format, but from the traditional roots.

I know this is a little shaw bros style, but I dont think its really that far fetched.

The only problem is a lot of non traditional guys fight in san shou.

however there could a seperate traditional division. where entries must have some sort of formal training in traditional chinese arts. similar to weight divisions. showcasing your mantis against your opponents hunga, then fighting on the platform.

not too sure about any sort of scoring for the forms section, would be tough.

I doubt this kind of thing will ever happen, but the entertainment factor would be pretty high in my opinion.

showcasing traditional styles against each other, through forms, training methods and other various aspects that may be unique to one style, then fighting in a full contact san shou match IMO would be a very exciting event.

Just remember, you heard it here first. :D

Pork Chop

12-12-2008, 01:19 PM

The only problem is a lot of non traditional guys fight in san shou.

however there could a seperate traditional division. where entries must have some sort of formal training in traditional chinese arts. similar to weight divisions. showcasing your mantis against your opponents hunga, then fighting on the platform.

Yeah, lowering the average quality of competitors ALWAYS improves the level of their fighting on the whole. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the incredulity, but there's a lot of us who can still perform our forms well enough to place (even if we don't practice them) and not use a lick of it when we step in the ring. You're going to see guys sneaking into the easier division in order to score a highlight film knockout over a less skilled opponent.

I say easier, because if you're spending time on making your forms pretty, then you're not using that time to train fighting. It's been my experience that even the guys who can use their traditional art for fighting, don't typically have the prettiest forms, and aren't the ones spending all their time training forms.

Lucas

12-12-2008, 02:10 PM

thats why i suggest not going for pretty forms, if you read everything i wrote, But just a display of their traditional form. A display of their style. Simply a display. Doesnt even have to be a form, like i suggested, it could be anything that is unique to your style. A display.

also why i suggested that the aspect of the form itself be for an exhebition purpose, not really for grading or scoring. that would be too difficult. Just to show a traditional form of your style before you fight your opponent.

Remember this is along the idea of traditional preservation. Hell even if the form is only 4 movements. Who cares. You could totally opt out of doing the form for something else.

A lot of traditional guys only do 1 or 2 forms. once mastered dont need to spend forever training it.

I do 2 forms. I can do them very well, but I only practice them on a semi regular basis at this point. Hardly my focus at all, but I still know them very well. I always will.

One guys form may suck, his opponents may be good. Doesnt really matter, its just a display. The fight results will be the fight results.

There is such a varying degree between people out there.

We have so many people JUST showing their traditional forms, without fighting. What i propose is to do more than just show us a form. Show us your form. then show us your fighting. I'm opting for a more realistic approach to a display of your traditional style.

We are talking about traditionalists here.

what did you think of that article linked

Lucas

12-12-2008, 02:18 PM

also, im not suggesting guys ONLY fight in a traditional division. But they could enter here AS WELL.

Nothing to stop them from competing in other international/national sanshou/sanda matches.

hell more power to them if they succeed in both.

besides its just my daydream anyway.

bawang

12-12-2008, 07:53 PM

they need to add lion dance music to sanda matches that should be the next step in kung fu
about artistic side, sure wushu is artistic and graceful but it ruins reputation of real kung fu because ordinary people generalize. if people wanna express them selves artistically why cant people do things like ballet or capoeria?
people call it wu shu (martial skill) but i call it wu shu (no skill)

Whether this expression is through combat or presentation, the warriors spriit will always be one of the most important factors.

this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_bEgMqPudU
this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUp1D81kLW8

can i ask you, do you seriously think the average kung fu guy in north america has it

YouKnowWho

12-12-2008, 10:55 PM

We have so many people JUST showing their traditional forms, without fighting.
Too many people misunderstand the purpose of the forms. Forms are used for teaching and learning only. It was not designed for training. Once you have learned your forms, you can just record it on DVD and you no longer need to train those forms from the 1st move to the last move. You should start to break it apart and dig out a lots of nice single or combo drills. Those are the information that you will need to train for the rest of your life and not the form itself.

Where is CMA headed?

IMO, it should be the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw. You may add ground game if you prefer.

firepalm

12-13-2008, 12:42 AM

this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_bEgMqPudU

can i ask you, do you seriously think the average kung fu guy in north america has it

Can I ask you, do you seriously think anyone (kung fu guy or otherwise) in north america or otherwise is f_cking retarded enough to do something like that? :rolleyes:

Yeh, yeh... you speak to warrior spirit... there's a lot of simple folk in the country side all over the world and if they pluck a banjo well, I'll give 'em props. If they sit there and slice up their tongue with dirty rusty machetes then I'll call them nothing more then a retard........ warrior f_cking really? :eek:

firepalm

12-13-2008, 01:05 AM

The answer to the original question in my opinion is whether some here like it or not is; towards diversity. And that diversity includes within the spectrum of term CMA not only Traditional but also the sportive aspects (ie; Modern Wushu & Sanshou) and Internal styles, Chinese Wrestling and side topics like Lion Dance, TCM, etc...

The many styles of CMA come from all parts of China and will often reflect the very diverse cultural differences found in China. Something such as Modern Wushu is also a direct reflection of the times that it grew out of (the Communist era of China). Sanshou came later during that era but also reflected a changing of views in the CMA circles of China & from the Gov't.

I believe you are also going to see a continued growth of things like the Shaolin subculture. Personally once you get past the 'monk' thing, what is being done in many of these circles and schools, I believe, is very progressive in that they are doing their Shaolin forms (although argumentive over the true traditional nature of them) while having their people train in other areas of CMA like Sanshou, Modern Wushu, acrobatics, Wrestling, etc... and even TKD & Boxing. From what I understand many such schools are getting into the MMA thing as well.

On the Modern Wushu topic, some here might not like it or equate it to 'having no skill' :rolleyes: I personally look at it with a little more open view and think your average Wushu school does a better job of training the athletic qualities of their pupils. Quite honestly I really hate to say because I really like the Traditional CMA but I think a very large portion of it is just UTTER GARBAGE. Many talk about fighting but so few really do have the ability and many are nothing more then form schools, which in my eyes makes them no different a Modern Wushu (which at least trains their people better in their respective sport).

CMA will continue to grow, although I believe Traditional is a bit on the down, and it is only because of the diversity that that is so.

My two cents.:cool:

David Jamieson

12-13-2008, 06:46 AM

Can I ask you, do you seriously think anyone (kung fu guy or otherwise) in north america or otherwise is f_cking retarded enough to do something like that? :rolleyes:

Yeh, yeh... you speak to warrior spirit... there's a lot of simple folk in the country side all over the world and if they pluck a banjo well, I'll give 'em props. If they sit there and slice up their tongue with dirty rusty machetes then I'll call them nothing more then a retard........ warrior f_cking really? :eek:

I agree. shamanistic rituals such as shown are backwater and don't represent much more than a willingness. A larger stronger fighter could easily control someone or render them unconscious. It just takes slightly more work. lol

even pcp head cases that are 100% impervious to pain can be controlled and taken down.

self inflicted wounding as a mark of warrior spirit is erroneous. It's merely a display of pea**** feathers. lol

MasterKiller

12-13-2008, 06:58 AM

Too many people misunderstand the purpose of the forms. Forms are used for teaching and learning only. It was not designed for training. Once you have learned your forms, you can just record it on DVD and you no longer need to train those forms from the 1st move to the last move. You should start to break it apart and dig out a lots of nice single or combo drills. Those are the information that you will need to train for the rest of your life and not the form itself.

Where is CMA headed?

IMO, it should be the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw. You may add ground game if you prefer.

TTT for the truth.

WinterPalm

12-13-2008, 10:16 PM

If the core movement ideas, the very rudimentary physical manuevers, if they aren't present when you fight, then you aren't doing kung fu. It doesn't matter if you wear boxing gloves or bare knuckle it, the core way of movement, the fundamental training instilled to produce movement, if it is not there, then you aren't well trained.

Ray Pina

12-15-2008, 04:53 AM

David Jamieson

12-15-2008, 06:01 AM

Wushu is nothing more than a floor exercise.... the olympics already have that. I even saw girls throwing batons with streamers up in the air, doing flips and catching it with their feet. Honestly, who needs Wushu?

As for where CMA is headed? Down the drain if it doesn't get it's act together quick fast.

I was at a small BJJ tournament in San Juan yesterday. This is a small island. From the four or five schools that showed up to compete, there were 20 to 25 competitors. All strong, athletic men. Even the heavy guys sporting bellies were explosive. A good portion of us not only fight, but have fought in the past 45 days. One guy fought Tai Boxing Friday and won the heavy weight BJJ division yesterday.

This is a very small corner of a very large planet and yet the level is being pushed here. There's no excuse for CMA's pathetic capability in the ring, cage or mat when there are so many Kung Fu schools in the U.S.A.

I don't know who to blame.... the style, the teacher, the students. I'll blame the teachers and the students. Because that's what makes a style. And they have made CMA a laughable side show that can't perform.

Sorry.

ray, you're asking an apple to be an orange.

is ring fighting the only standard for martial arts?

should snipers only be snipers if they competitively shoot at things?

I see a need for testing applied methods. I don't agree that testing venue needs to be sportive competition and that it can be done in house.

If the standards are poor, taht will show in a reality based situation at some point I would thing.

sportive combative is what it is and it is not the gold standard of martial arts as much as anyone would really like it to be.

most ufc, nhb and amateur level stuff is frat boy dross on a lot of levels and frankly quite a lot of martial artists can't be bothered with the poor attitudes, peeing into peoples salads or masturbating onto their pillows as is the way of the ufc set as shown on television. lol, its disgusting really and I can see why a lot of martial artists would never want to associate on any level with those kinds of antics.

not too mention, just because you "roll" regularly with some other dudes doesn't amount to anything either. It's just training, isn't big money and isn't world class, so in that sense, all the amateurs out there don't have any more bragging rights than anyone else.

Anyway, CMA will be fine. San shou splintering and so on will do fins in their own venues and not everything needs to be defined by mma which has it's own standard and it will do fine with it's thing. But cma doesn't need to be that. It can still be what it is and still have tremendous value to anyone who undertakes the practice of it.

Ray Pina

12-15-2008, 10:02 AM

My response has/had nothing to do with competitive fighting.

Wushu is not martial arts. It's performance. I respect the skill and ability of those who practice it. It is aesthetically beautiful. So is drunken boxing, three-sectional staff and chain whip forms.

None of that has anything to do with CMA remaining relevant, from a martial arts perspective. Actually, the continued focus and emphasis on forms and "traditionalism" (read Chinese costumes and customs) only further alienates CMA from the practicing, functional martial arts world.

Again, this is discussed here all the time. I don't think it is a secret or a surprise to anyone that your average Kung Fu player has very little to no experience comparing his or her skills realistically with anyone, let alone high-level boxers, kick boxers, MMAers, Vale Tudo, Tai Boxers.... in short, people who have made hand-to-hand combat their life and business.

When you're technology is generation 1 Atari and you are competing with X-Box 360.... you don't compete. You go away.

Kung Fu has already been wiped off the martial art map. It's irrelevant. Its only lifeline now is the historical/Shaw brother appeal. And that will fade away as more realistic arts continue to gain favor. Chuck Lidel has more meaning to 13 year olds then Bruce Lee.

This isn't a hater response. This is reporting.... just in case you didn't get the memo or continue to look through your rose blossom, shaolin glasses.

David Jamieson

12-15-2008, 10:16 AM

mawali

12-15-2008, 10:39 AM

Excellent point Ray,

CMA guys do not stand a chance in any competitive event especificall if they say their art is a 'killer' art. It just does not stand up. iF someone is doing their New Age CMA then all good and well, Let them enjoy the high.

Guys like Cartmell, Cung Le and a small few are getting the mileage out of thier art and that, at least, is good press that for those who train, the skill is definately there!

This is what CMA has come down to! Empty Farce, invisible self protection and other weird stuff;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

Even karate is onto this invisible force!

Ray Pina

12-15-2008, 01:47 PM

How do you feel about boxing? It is fairly old has no wrestling, no takedowns, no locks and no throws. Is it anachronistic by your viewpoint as kungfu or rather cma practice is?
I think boxing has great striking mechanics, footwork and slipping (head movement).
The thing I don't like is its eagerness to exchange striking. But that's its game.

how about wrestling? It has no striking, no stand up whatsoever? Throwback or useful still?
I think wrestling creates explosive, strong, sensitive flowing athletes. I think they are very dangerous people, particularly so because they excel in circumstances most are uncomfortable in ... tight, face to face fighting (standing or ground). The thing I don't like about wrestling is its eagerness to expose it's head. But that's part of it's game, no striking.

how about judo
I just got beat by a 2nd Dan Judoka yesterday. He flowed off of me perfectly and three me over his shoulder. After 4:40 of ground game, he submitted me with a choke .... he had an armbar and a choke going at the same time. I didn't want to give him my arm. We both had one loss and had to fight again. He won by points the second time.

He was better then me. He has 15 years of Judo.

I'd like to fight him with full striking and ground and pound.... I have 20+ years striking and less then a year BJJ. If you can read into all of that .. the fact that after one match I learned enough not to get thrown again, not get submitted, end the match having escaped his mount and regained side control, then his back, then mount and time ran out ... against a Judo Black belt and I'm a BJJ white belt more than comfortable throwing the fists, you'll see what I don't like about Judo.

or taekwondo?

Tae Kwon Do is $hit but it's better than Kung Fu. At least it's stylists get good, crisp kicking and develop true sense of distance and timing because they spar often. That's their thing.

Lucas

12-15-2008, 01:48 PM

now, one question.

did everyone read the article linked in its entirety and understand the divisions being drawn between traditional martial arts and modern wushu performance?

that division is kind of the framwork i started this thread on. partly why that article is important to read fully and understand.

Ray Pina

12-15-2008, 01:57 PM

I admit I didn't read the article.

I break Kung Fu down into 3 groups:

wushu: not even a martial art. Pure performance.

The Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Mantis, Long Fist types: Guys who go to the "kwoon", train in Kung Fu slippers and divide the time between stance training, chi gung, form work and fully cooperative trapping drills that aren't very realistic.... which is why they aren't trained full force with boxing gloves, how they should be.

Then you have the internal guys: these guys train single movements forever thinking they can chop a man in half, and that this is the "high level" way to train. But when you spend two hours, 3 to 5 times a week walking back and forth doing a single movement, you're not having your will and resolve tested and fortified, the difference in every fight. You're not developing true distancing or timing. You may be developing good mechanics, but Tiger Wood has perfect mechanics. He's not a fighter either.

There are also the San Da guys.... out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training... they're sweating. They're working with boxing gloves. They're throwing each other. THEY'RE FIGHTING.

Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.

Lucas

12-15-2008, 02:48 PM

There are also the San Da guys.... out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training... they're sweating. They're working with boxing gloves. They're throwing each other. THEY'RE FIGHTING.

This is a big factor with what that article is breaching.

There are a lot of traditional guys that are sanshou guys. I mean, China having the largest population of martial artists in the world makes for a HUGE, and I mean HUGE variance in what people are doing.

China has thai boxers, BJJers, TKDers, Karateka, JJJ, Judo, SJ. etc...Its all there.

every aspect that IS martial arts is being expressed somewhere within china. MILLIONS of people. millions. That is a huge number.

but see, there are SanShou/Sanda guys that refer to themselves as kungfu guys. Because thats their foundation. Its what they know, and they are going the fighting route. Taking their foundation, their basics, training the hell out of them and stepping into the ring. With CMA. dropping all the extra stuff and just doing the ring thing.

Its all about ratio. CMA just has sh!tty ratios.

Its like saying every sport fighter out there is a Brock lesnar or Cung le. Just because the ratio says most sport fighters can fight. I can guarantee you there is a sport guy out there with a glass jaw, strikes like a wet noodle and a crap ground game.

Its just kind of the opposite. CMA has a real bad ratio, but there are people out there that are going about things the right way.

Also I think its a bad idea to base an opinion of CMA off of experiences soley in the USA. Bad combo in my opinion. The USA generally abuses everything that comes here.

Its all good though. There will always be people that look at things realistically, and love CMA.

CMA having such a bad light shed on it, IMO is a good thing. People are not able to get away with a lot of the stuff that they used to.

For instance. How many (we will use the USA as an example) guys went to asia and learned a few years of -insert random asian art- and came to teach in americal. TONS. How many of them can say they truly know their arts? Things like this dont happen as easily, but the mark left by actions like these will take decades to shed.

Now a scenario;

You have 3 people.

All practice CMA.

#1 person learns 3 years of CMA. At this point (s)he's decided to enroll into the san shou program after close evaluation of his/her goals and abilities. (S)he enrolls, and goes about the standardized process of becoming a san shou fighter. Pretty basic. Lots of time and training and repetition and fighting. They either does well, does poorly, or does moderately. Those are pretty much the available outcomes. Permanent and dibilitating injury falling under the poorly done category.

#2 person learns 3 years of CMA. At this point they decided that modern wushu is what they love. They compete and do well, poorly or moderately. Same deal basically. Just different activity.

#3 elderly person is refered to CMA by a friend, health care provider, family member, etc. They begin to study (we will use taiji for this scenario due to populartiy) taiji with the hopes of gaining better over all health. Possibly due to current issues that could use help, modern medicine may have been having problems providing. There is a good chance this persons state of health will improve. They may also notice a wide variety of bonuses associated with their studies (ive personally witnessed this too many times to think this wouldnt happen)

This is an example of the versatility that CMA has to offer.

The old saying:

Its a life style, or its a way of life.

is true, for most loving endeavors. I think the fact that CMA has the ability to offer such a wide variety of ways of life is one of the things that makes it so unique.

Thats not to say that other outlets do not offer the same availability, there are others, CMA just happens to be one.

Rarely is this attribute of CMA even recognized, except by CMA practitioners. Even though it is a fact.

I always find that odd.

sanjuro_ronin

12-15-2008, 02:49 PM

David Jamieson

12-15-2008, 02:58 PM

Golden Arms

12-15-2008, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
I admit I didn't read the article.

I break Kung Fu down into 3 groups:

wushu: not even a martial art. Pure performance.

The Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Mantis, Long Fist types: Guys who go to the "kwoon", train in Kung Fu slippers and divide the time between stance training, chi gung, form work and fully cooperative trapping drills that aren't very realistic.... which is why they aren't trained full force with boxing gloves, how they should be.

Then you have the internal guys: these guys train single movements forever thinking they can chop a man in half, and that this is the "high level" way to train. But when you spend two hours, 3 to 5 times a week walking back and forth doing a single movement, you're not having your will and resolve tested and fortified, the difference in every fight. You're not developing true distancing or timing. You may be developing good mechanics, but Tiger Wood has perfect mechanics. He's not a fighter either.

There are also the San Da guys.... out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training... they're sweating. They're working with boxing gloves. They're throwing each other. THEY'RE FIGHTING.

Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.

I have fought San Shou for around 8 years, and practiced Hung Gar, (along with some Judo, Kali, and other stuff) for quite a bit longer. I might add that I have been hit harder and learned more from my Hung Gar training than from my San Shou, and that we do very little cooperative work unless it is a new skill. According to your analysis, my training program doesn't exist.

David Jamieson

12-15-2008, 03:00 PM

I have fought San Shou for around 8 years, and practiced Hung Gar and Judo for quite a bit longer. I might add that I have been hit harder and learned more from my Hung Gar training than from my San Shou, and that we do very little cooperative work unless it is a new skill. According to your analysis, my training program doesn't exist.

according to that analysis, a great deal of people don't exist. don't feel bad. :)

Lucas

12-15-2008, 03:04 PM

Chuck Lidel has more meaning to 13 year olds then Bruce Lee.

In america, ya for sure.

However there are quite a few countries where most people, kids or adults, would say "who?" if you dropped chucks name, but would likely know bruce lee. Didnt they just put a golden statue of bruce lee in moscow?

Not to make any comparison, we here all know who each of these guys are.

but this is just to point out, that the americas are only 1/3 of this world.

There is a lot more to factor in than just what youve seen and done.

SimonM

12-15-2008, 03:06 PM

Lucas

12-15-2008, 04:08 PM

where do you guys figure private security professionals (bodyguards) fit into this equasion.

This is a whole different type of martial artist all together. They cant spend too much time on empty hand or their other skills can suffer im sure.

They certainly arent out there fighting for entertainment. However their confidence and profeciency are very important to their jobs. Generally these guys are given a target to protect.

Secret service guys come to mind. THey do a lot more than just protect the Prez.

Govt. officials, Wealthy business men, high profile criminals, etc.

all of these people procure protection at one point or another.

those that protect them arent fighting very often, but when the **** goes down, they have to make sure they win. Be it with gun, car or body, the job must be done and the contract must survive. Thats their goal. most of the time i assume they are just getting the F out of a hot area and not even having any confrontation.

just interesting to think about.

YouKnowWho

12-15-2008, 04:20 PM

Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.
If Sanda guys use Judo for throwing, boxing for punching, and MT for kicking then I agree that Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them. If they use SC for throwing and LF for kicking and punching then Kung Fu should deserve the credit.

taai gihk yahn

12-15-2008, 04:51 PM

too bad those wrestlers don't punch eh? useless thing that wrestling when they have to face someone punching them about teh head and neck.
too bad about those boxers getting their limbs busted by a joint cranker with the hooks in.
too bad about those Muay Thai guys getting choked out because they can't slip a lock.
too bad about the bjj guy getting stabbed
do you really think wrestlers don't try to hit each other, don't know what it's like to get hit, don't know how to avoid getting hit, don't know how to take a hit?
do you think it's that easy to catch, hold onto and lock-up a trained boxer's hands / arms?
MT guys spend a good deal of time training gaining position in a clinch, so would have at least as much ability to avoid a choke as any "stand-up" art
the typical unarmed BJJ guy probably has as much chance of getting stabbed as the typical unarmed TCMA guy;
just remember though, these guys are all used to one common element: training against resistance; meaning that for them to shift laterally and acquire another skill set under the same contextual parameters is going to be a lot easier than for someone who practices the majority of their art in the air or against compliant partners

it's all too bad especially that of the myriad styles of chinese martial art, none of them addresses combat...)
TCMA always had two parallel roads; one was the stuff used by the guys who fought for a living: security guards, thugs, gangsters, soldiers, etc. then there were the guys who trained their "weekend warrior" style, which is what a lot of the former types were happy to give out when they decided that they could make a better living doing that instead of risking their lives guarding / raiding someone's caravan
in the case of the former, empty hand combat was never a priority - weapons training was the deal, and therefore "real" TCMA was really about using a weapon to kill someone whenever possible; empty hand grew to prominence as a) technology shifted to firearms as primary; b) former MA teachers wanted to be able to show their stuff without killing someone else or getting themselves killed - all trappings of being more "civilized"...
plus, you have all that Confucian cultural mishegas to deal with, mixed in with the Daoist hoo-doo voo-doo bits...

p.s My Gun trumps everything you do and takes less than a heartbeat to do it.
not necessarily. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill)..

I still enjoy cma practice. :)
me too; but I have no illusions

Ray Pina

12-15-2008, 05:16 PM

lol.

ray, i believe you have successfully thrown away the baby when you dumped your kungfu bath after your bad experience.

too bad those wrestlers don't punch eh? useless thing that wrestling when they have to face someone punching them about teh head and neck.

too bad about those boxers getting their limbs busted by a joint cranker with the hooks in.

too bad about those Muay Thai guys getting choked out because they can't slip a lock.

too bad about the bjj guy getting stabbed

it's all too bad especially that of the myriad styles of chinese martial art, none of them addresses combat...

p.s My Gun trumps everything you do and takes less than a heartbeat to do it. I still enjoy cma practice. :)

Read this carefully.

You asked me for my opinion on several arts you listed. I gave you my honest thoughts on those styles. They are my opinion, based on my experience. Nothing more. Nothing less.

However, the hostility, gleamingly apparent by your remark that your gun trumps "everything I do," just highlights the type of passive aggressiveness I find with Kung Fu types... and it stems from what you feel to be true inside.

Someone here made a remark that there are competitive fighters not worth a snot. That would be me! I've yet to win a sanctioned fight!

Do I take it personally? Hell no. I know I have knock out power. I tapped 5 guys who showed up to win yesterday. Losing, and how you deal with it, is part of being a winner.

As for what's going on in China and other parts of the world, it's no surprise to me. There was an American in San Juan yesterday. A genius working for the CDC who just moved from Bangkok. He game me a t-shirt of some South East BJJ association. Schools everywhere. Turns out there's a BJJ school in SHanghai and I'll be there in March so I'll check it out. Which is a shame. That I'll be in Shanghai looking for BJJ instead of Ba Gua. But I know to find good Ba Gua I'd have to eat a bunch of **** if I'm lucky.... and it will probably be bad. Where as the BJJ will most likely be surprisingly good.

As for me having a "bad" kung fu experience.... hog wash. Again, I don't want to flame the hater fire, but my kung fu experience has been better than most.

My initiation into Kung Fu was from an Italian that studied with several names in Chinatown. Then I got introduced to guys who fought with Norman and Milton China, Frank Yee, the Wing Chun guys at the Free Masons club. Hanging in the parks in NYC CHinatown. That alone is more than probably 90% of the people here. And that was core, 5 days a week for 5 years.

Then I learned internal from Master David Bond Chan.... the man. His Ba Gua is 4th generation. From the real deal Master Wong tsong Fei. Real deal people. Real fighters. I've seen the old man beat young strong men. Beat me every time, every way. I had to consider that Kung Fu because everyone was Chinese and I knew they were "kung fu" styles but the training and thinking was completely different.

How can you take pride in Kung Fu and not be one of the people getting off your a$$ and doing something about it? Is that what your training has taught you? Leave it to someone else?

I'm more Kung Fu than most of you. But when the house smells like $hit I acknowledge it and do some house cleaning. Not bury my nose in the sand and make believe everything is roses.

Kung Fu is fu(king dead. And you all killed it.

Instead of typing $hit, bring it back to life.

Lucas

12-15-2008, 06:02 PM

Read this carefully.

Someone here made a remark that there are competitive fighters not worth a snot. That would be me! I've yet to win a sanctioned fight!

I disagree with you on that Ray. You may not have won a sanctioned fight. But you are still a fighter and you CAN fight. The difference being most likely you have an apptitude for the work.

There are, and we have all seen them, people who just cant get it. They either dont understand the motor skills involved, their bodies just wont move right, or some other factor is in the way.

Some people, even after years and years of practice, their fighting will always just be so, so. If that. They may have good technique at this point, but thats just from repetition.

Its just like anything else really.

Take driving for example. Everyone can drive a car. Most people do. But how many of them can REALLY DRIVE?

One of the best drivers ive ever met couldnt get his license till he was 25. He just had some roadblocks put up in his way, from driving before the law said he could. didnt stop him from driving, and now he races.

OOP, saved by the bell. Time to go home!

Ray Pina

12-16-2008, 04:11 AM

Sure. A lot of people don't get it. Probably more than half has been my experience. You have 10 guys, two will be naturals who pick things up right away. A couple drills and they got it. But also, these guys tend not to miss training, never. Even when they're injured they train around it.

The rest will get the techniques at their own pace. Some quicker then others, but they're casual about it.

Maybe 3 years ago I'd say someone would stumble into a cage match that had no business there.... that was me, with no BJJ training at all. Today, even at the amateur level, folks are super hard core. You have to be. That's the thing that I'm trying to get across here.... I don't think Kung Fu people really appreciate how hard folks are training.

At the BJJ tournament I was at this weekend, God, everyone looked like race horses. Sleek muscle. Gis get torn open, and the bodies are chiseled. Not from body building, but from training. This is what it takes. The best man wins.

TenTigers

12-16-2008, 05:57 AM

Hey Ray, how long did you study with Norman Chin and Milton Chin, and Frank Yee?(I was not aware of this-you've never mentioned it before) How long were you in David Bond Chan's school?

sanjuro_ronin

12-16-2008, 06:18 AM

Read this carefully.

How can you take pride in Kung Fu and not be one of the people getting off your a$$ and doing something about it? Is that what your training has taught you? Leave it to someone else?

I'm more Kung Fu than most of you. But when the house smells like $hit I acknowledge it and do some house cleaning. Not bury my nose in the sand and make believe everything is roses.

Kung Fu is fu(king dead. And you all killed it.

Instead of typing $hit, bring it back to life.

This part of your post, Ray, I totally can relate to in many ways.

David Jamieson

12-16-2008, 06:57 AM

sorry ray, but I think you're the only passive aggressive here and trying to cherry pick one counterpoint to go off on me is not making your opinion any stronger or more acceptable.

truly.

yes, the points are only your opinion and you insult every kungfu person out there with your one sided rants about how it's ineffective etc etc.

Your remarks are basically taunts, so don't expect everyone to slide up to your feet and profess your wisdom when so many of yoru statements are brimming with outright ignorance.

Your few years of kungfu training is NOTHING when compared to what there is available and the methods and how they are used. You pick out the weakest examples and hold those up as the axioms of teh whole.

This further underlines your own passive aggressive attitudes towards martial arts from china.

I can't change your crappy experience ray. just do your thing and its probably better if you let others do theirs.

also, it ain't about you man. You try to bring it there, but you and i are insignificant in the scope of the subject.

when you say your training is better, i say your training is irrelevant to the next step up. you then apparently try to throw that at me as passive aggressive.

To me, that only makes you looks stupid ray. I merely stated a fact, and the fact is that all h2h and sportive combative is anachronistic when compared to a firearm and you can train your whole life and be just spiffy with a rear naked but in reality,. you, and I and everyone else is nothing compared to less than an ounce of lead travelling at 300 miles a second. it's just a fact and it outlines the relevancy of the subject.

that being that all h2h art are useless in the face of superior firepower. period. take it at face value and try to accept that not everyone is into what you are and there are plenty of people out there who train nothing but kungfu and some can kick your ass and some can't. so what.

you take it too far with your ignorant blanket statements about slippers and your other underhanded comments.

some of what you say is well founded, quite a lot of it is just bitter rants though.

Ray Pina

12-16-2008, 07:36 AM

Hey Ray, how long did you study with Norman Chin and Milton Chin, and Frank Yee?(I was not aware of this-you've never mentioned it before) How long were you in David Bond Chan's school?

I didn't study with Frank Yee, my first Kung Fu teacher Sifu Mike did. His brother Mark introduced me to "Uncle Milton" over dinner. I trained heavily with his guys for a couple years, 2 or 3. That was one of my best martial arts experience.... no forms. We would go ape **** on the bags for 3 minute rounds, then put on head gear and light bag gloves and chi sau full contact with head strikes but semi-fast stoppage. We would spar. Not point spar, but fight spar. Got KOed for the first time with this group.

Good guys. We would all get dinner afterwards. Unfortunately, politics over who was actually who's student and thus who should get paid caused issues right as it was time for me to start learning from Master Chan. I will say Sifu Mark never charges us. We were simply there for each other if one had a flat, a problem, etc. I owe Sifu Mark a lot because he was the first person I trained with that kept it very simple. And knew that it was a bout bringing and controlling aggression.

Master Chan. I trained with him, I'd like to say for 7 years. I started sometime in my mid-20s up until about four months before I moved here. I moved here two years ago Feb. 1. I'm 34. So maybe 10 years.

I can say training with Master Chan has transformed my thinking and the way I approach martial arts study. I no longer care about acquiring techniques. I care about finding ways to fuel them most efficiently: Structure, mechanics, positional leverage.

At the same time, I now see how foolish a lot of martial arts thinking is... take something as standard as the Wing Chun practice of top-side fuk sau straight to an eye jab. They take pride in this. It's stupid.... when you release the top-hand to go for my eyes, my underside arm can wedge your strike high and off target while getting your eye..... no control. Everyone just wants to hit faster and harder. Close your door, open their door, hit while your door is still closed.

This is why after 3 kickboxing and 2 MMA losses I'm still so pretty.:) I may lose, but no one has beaten me up. Well, one guy bounced me off the ropes and broke my face, but that was an exceptional case (him, and the situation).

Ray Pina

12-16-2008, 08:01 AM

yes, the points are only your opinion
Which you asked for

Your remarks are basically taunts,
Says you.

Your few years of kungfu training is NOTHING when compared to what there is available and the methods and how they are used.

I think I have a pretty extensive resume when it comes to martial arts with over 25 years of training. When I saw the trapping, sticking and power potential of Kung Fu, I spent considerable time what I thought was the best available training. It took 5 years for me to find Master Chan. It wasn't easy and it wasn't cheap. Four hours total commute time each training day when I didn't have a car. When I wanted to learn BJJ, I started at Renzo's Gracie. I've never been one for lineage hype, but at the same time I've seen enough to know that there's a big difference between schools. So I seek the best.

And I know there's still so much more to learn.

I can't change your crappy experience ray. just do your thing and its probably better if you let others do theirs. also, it ain't about you man. You try to bring it there, but you and i are insignificant in the scope of the subject.
Bro, I work from home in Puerto Rico. I surf and smoke krippy every day. My experience is far from crappy. As for my training, it is all about me. My competing too. Has nothing to do with anyone else.

when you say your training is better, i say your training is irrelevant to the next step up. you then apparently try to throw that at me as passive aggressive.
I never said my training was better. I said Kung Fu $ucks. I don't need to have a BMW to know Hyundai's are $hit.

you can train your whole life and be just spiffy with a rear naked but in reality,. you, and I and everyone else is nothing compared to less than an ounce of lead travelling at 300 miles a second. it's just a fact and it outlines the relevancy of the subject.
True. But I honestly think my life's training made me aware of a very dangerous situations early, allowing myself to handle them safely. The last one running from a group of armed men.

there are plenty of people out there who train nothing but kungfu and some can kick your ass and some can't.
I've yet to meat one. And I have a lot of video footage of guys who wished they hadn't tried. I got video literally cracking skulls, breaking arms and ribs. Unfortunately they have been my best fights. But because they have also been the worst opponents. I'm not saying that to antagonize. Again, just my experience. These guys were so removed from reality that the experience was probably a wake up call. I know I'm good friends with one of the guys now and he fights in the same amateur circuit I do.

you take it too far with your ignorant blanket statements about slippers and your other underhanded comments.

What footwear do you use in your training?

SimonM

12-16-2008, 08:18 AM

do you really think wrestlers don't try to hit each other, don't know what it's like to get hit, don't know how to avoid getting hit, don't know how to take a hit?

First rule of wrestling: anything you can get away with is not against the rules. ;)

brothernumber9

12-16-2008, 08:32 AM

First rule of wrestling: anything you can get away with is not against the rules. ;)

Hahaha. Tell me about it. In one of my last matches in highschool, I was going to square off against a guy I faced in a tournament earlier in the year. The guy would cheat like hell and I wanted to get him back for our first match. SO I hid a toothpick in my knee pad and at some point(s) in the match, I had planned to pull it out and jab him with it a few times.

The toothpick broke inside my knee pad and stabbed me over an inch deep right above my knee cap. I went on to lose...again. Good times.

SimonM

12-16-2008, 08:38 AM

I've had people head butt me, elbow me, knee me in the crotch, and try stupid hu jow-style rips on my arms and shoulders during matches.

And I have elbowed, kneed and head-butted too.

David Jamieson

12-16-2008, 08:42 AM

Ok, first of all, wrestler guys, you wrestle, you don't box and if you wrestle dirty, good for you. Not the point at all and you are wandering into teh weeds of argument with that stuff, so just keep it. wrestling is wrestling, it's got it's merits and i never said it didn't.

secondly, Ray, your saying kungfu sucks is the point I am on about. Not sure how or why you want to disconnect on that. You are clearly saying that you think your training path is superior, I'm saying it's not, it's just training. You backpedal on the black and white point of it.

You haven't met any kungfu people with superior skills to yours maybe because you don't approach any of them that present a reasonable threat to you?

why not really step up and see whats what with you instead of bashing on such a wide array of things as to lump them all into one thing taht you say sucks.

also, hyundai is superior to bmw in many respects from price points to reliability to maintenance costs. So again, in that analogy your reason is flawed as is your reasons for calling out kungfu.

As for footware, it depends on where I'm training, but in my own gym I wear something like an indoor soccer shoe. a martial arts specific shoe i guess. Outside, it's whatever I have on my feet. I have worn the cotton slippers you hate so much apparently, but I fail to see what footware has to do with anything. You could be wearing pink fuzzy slippers when you get attacked! lol. It's not about footware, it's about stepping and footing regardless of terrain.

your experience is only your own, it's different from anyone else as there's is different from yours. You say kungfu is dead and that I killed it?

I say you're wrong and you just don't know it yet. That's my opinion.

sanjuro_ronin

12-16-2008, 09:16 AM

In terms of practical applications, the "only" thing CMA need to do is fight more, with as limited rule set as possible.
The results will take care of themselves.

TenTigers

12-16-2008, 09:17 AM

" His brother Mark introduced me to "Uncle Milton" over dinner. I trained heavily with his guys for a couple years, 2 or 3. "

You said, "His guys."
Who's guys?
Milton Chin's Guys, or Mark Manganiello's guys?
are you saying trained with Milton Chin, or with Mark Manganiello?

SimonM

12-16-2008, 09:23 AM

In terms of practical applications, the "only" thing CMA need to do is fight more, with as limited rule set as possible.
The results will take care of themselves.

Yes! Thank you!

bawang

12-16-2008, 09:53 AM

hi dave, yes the vid of the silat shaman is backward and primitive but so is kung fu, boxer rebellion anyone. im not saying we should all go slicing our tounges, im saying that guy has balls and is batsh1t insane, which we should look up to
the main problem today in north america is peple want to do for fun and hobby. real kung fu is not fun. its bitter. its pain.

David Jamieson

12-16-2008, 09:58 AM

hi dave, yes the vid of the silat shaman is backward and primitive but so is kung fu, im not saying we should all go slicing our tounges, im saying that guy has balls and is batsh1t insane, which we should look up to
the main problem today in north america is peple want to do for fun and hobby. real kung fu is not fun. its bitter. its pain.

real kungfu is not just getting up and fighting people either. just like real yoga isn't just bending about in a quite room. there are more aspects to kungfu as a complete art that works on churning out a complete person.

anyone can fight. animals fight, it;'s not hard, you just have to want to and your technique doesn't matter, all you have to do is win or lose.

kungfu is so far beyond that as an art and as a lifestyle practice. To relegate it to just the punching, kicking, locking and throwing is to only look at one side of it.

what of wude in everyday life? what of self reflection? what of the fact taht people want to maintain body fitness through these esoteric practices and what of those who do not care to fight.

why so much value placed on what young men want to do?

fight is one thing. you do it for a time in your life and then you do it no longer, but kungfu, you can practice until you die.

this is the biggest stumbling block for so many people who do not understand what kungfu is. that's cool, maybe they'll get it when they are old and grey and useless as fighters.

bawang

12-16-2008, 10:15 AM

TenTigers

12-16-2008, 10:17 AM

In terms of practical applications, the "only" thing CMA need to do is fight more, with as limited rule set as possible.
The results will take care of themselves.
Here here!
That, and being well rounded with a good training ethic.

But, here's the thing; we've already said this time and time again. We've already established the FACT that it isn't the technique, it's the training.
When are people here going to wake the f*** up and stop saying the same thing over and over again. You're preaching to the choir.
Those that get it, are doing something about it. Those that don't are jumping around with flippy broadswords and silk pajamas to the Star Wars theme song.

Christ. That's the same reason I split up with my ex. She wouldn't stfu.
Find another forum.
This is like watching the same rerun of Gilligan's Island over and over again.

David Jamieson

12-16-2008, 10:24 AM

hi dave, you have to be able to fight to have wu de, other wise its de, most of time people say wude its about mutual respect
from what i know green forest code is when someone is in a fight you help him, and you never beat prostitutes or monks or poor people

wu de is about respect and understanding. wu de is the conscious decision to argue instead of physical attack.

wu de is to chose not to use force despite your being able to.

like i said, anyone can fight and some fo the best talent in fighting ime is not coming out of training in martial arts.

I would venture that most of the poorest fighters are in gyms, dojos and kwoons everywhere. I mean, people go to these places because they want to learn how to fight right?

and when they learn a bunch of stuff? what do they do?

TenTigers

12-16-2008, 10:26 AM

oh, and Sanjuro Ronin, that tirade wasn't directed at you, it was at people like Ray, who think they are enlightening everyone here with their new found wizdom.
I like Ray's blogs. I really enjoy watching him grow as a fighter, learning the ropes, and pushing himself.
But when he goes on, and on, and on about "Kung-Fu this, and Kung-Fu that," it's tiring. It wasn't interesting the first time. It's just f***ing tedious at this point.

And, he loses what credibility he had.
At first, it's like,"Oh this guy is having an experience. He's learning something."
But, by the umteeth time, people are just thinking,"Oh, here he goes again."
Blah,blah, blah.

SimonM

12-16-2008, 10:28 AM

you have to be able to fight to have wu de, other wise its de,

Thank you bawang, that is sig worthy.

sanjuro_ronin

12-16-2008, 10:32 AM

MightyB

12-16-2008, 01:03 PM

Personally I'd like to see TCMA move more in the direction of combatives and CQB rather than transitioning to combat sports. I think the transition to combatives would be easier and fit the general theories better. To do this- the TCMA crowd would have to get exposed to the reality crowd and their methodology of teaching... Lots of yelling, hard contact, and realistic scenario stuff under stressful conditions. Plus- a serious study of firearms, realistic stick and knife disearms.

SimonM

12-16-2008, 01:09 PM

And a return to realistic melee weapon use. No more waving around a piece of tinfoil with a pretty handle.

MasterKiller

12-16-2008, 01:23 PM

Ray Pina

12-16-2008, 01:32 PM

are you saying trained with Milton Chin, or with Mark Manganiello?

Mark and his guys. Mark trained with Milton and Norman.

MightyB

12-16-2008, 01:32 PM

Well, if you do that, it's no longer necessarily Traditional or Chinese, now is it?

Good Point.

Maybe TCMA does = LARP

Ray Pina

12-16-2008, 01:47 PM

anyone can fight. animals fight, it;'s not hard, you just have to want to and your technique doesn't matter, all you have to do is win or lose.

kungfu is so far beyond that as an art and as a lifestyle practice. To relegate it to just the punching, kicking, locking and throwing is to only look at one side of it.

This is my last post on the subject.

If anyone can go fight, then these Wing Chun, Hung Gar-only masters should go out and represent their styles and skills against other stylists of the same level (amateur/pro). The venues are there. The other fighters are there. Kung Fu is not there.

Yes, fighting is only one-side of Kung Fu or any martial art which is a two-sided coin.
Side one: real ability developed over years of hard training, testing and real combat.
Side Two: Inner peace and self awareness developed through the above.

Modern Kung Fu lacks both sides of that coin. That's why I say it $ucks and has no value.

I studied Kung Fu. I have sought out the top names. I challenged Emin Boztepe like an a$$hole at one of his seminars years ago. Posted the footage.

He was a class act. I learned from him. And since I've matured to the point where I don't have to post video of every little martial endeavor I have. I have plenty. I'm fighting and competing all the time now.

This related to what I said earlier, my training is my training and that's all that matters. What Kung Fu is doing is Kung Fu's business. But as someone out there mixing it up with all kinds of styles, I don't see Kung Fu out there.

If this bothers you, that's an issue for you and your Kung Fu brothers to address. Don't hate the messenger. A lot of you guys are teachers. Instead of hating on me and wondering what I'm doing, where are your students? Why haven't you produced that Kung Fu-only champion?

I always hear the same thing from Kung Fu, karate types: jobs, women, not enough time. That's it. Real fighters are married to their training. They work at their abilities. Kung Fu players like to look as if they do these things but they don't. Which brings us back to why Kung Fu aint out there.

You guys get on my case but I don't understand. Please answer this question: Do you really think Kung Fu only guys are out there wowing the fight world? Mixing it up with today's modern fighters at the various levels available to them?

Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe I've been hit too many times and am just missing all this Kung Fu mastery taking place seemingly before my very eyes.

TenTigers

12-16-2008, 01:55 PM

Read this carefully.
As for me having a "bad" kung fu experience.... hog wash. Again, I don't want to flame the hater fire, but my kung fu experience has been better than most.

My initiation into Kung Fu was from an Italian that studied with several names in Chinatown. Then I got introduced to guys who fought with Norman and Milton China, Frank Yee, the Wing Chun guys at the Free Masons club. Hanging in the parks in NYC CHinatown. That alone is more than probably 90% of the people here. And that was core, 5 days a week for 5 years.
I'm more Kung Fu than most of you. .

your wording is very misleading. It almost sounds as if you trained with these people, rather than training with someone who did.Of course, not that it amounts to anything. Mark ran a good class, and you had a great experience.

So what was it that you did NOT like about the training? Aside from the fact that what Mark did in his class was just a small group out of the entire school-but, that's the way it is in most schools. You have a solid core, and everyone else keeps the lights on.
We have grappling and fiht night on Fridays. Only a small group show up. SOme of the guys don't seem to make it in for Wednesday's Monguohk Seut Gow class as well. (Guangzhao style SJ)
I think Tiger Shullman has the right idea-you need a certain amount of hours in core training, kickboxing, and grappling to be promoted.

TenTigers

12-16-2008, 02:05 PM

oh, and not fer nuthin-one of my students,Pan, won his first amature MMA fight in Thailand by TKO. This was in August. He was not satisfied with his performance, so he doesn't want it up on youtube. I thought he did great, but I understand and respect his wishes. I do the same thing. I have many vids that I am not satisfied with so they get scrapped, so I can't blame him.
But it is also a numbers thing-I have had several who said they wanted to fight, one took it to the ring. There will be more. He is setting a fine example, and will inspire others. It's a process, and I'm not in a hurry.

sanjuro_ronin

12-16-2008, 02:31 PM

Well, if you do that, it's no longer necessarily Traditional or Chinese, now is it?

Actually, it would be a RETURN to be traditional.

lkfmdc

12-16-2008, 02:32 PM

MasterKiller

12-16-2008, 02:33 PM

Actually, it would be a RETURN to be traditional.

Firearms....?

sanjuro_ronin

12-16-2008, 02:35 PM

This is my last post on the subject.

If anyone can go fight, then these Wing Chun, Hung Gar-only masters should go out and represent their styles and skills against other stylists of the same level (amateur/pro). The venues are there. The other fighters are there. Kung Fu is not there.

Yes, fighting is only one-side of Kung Fu or any martial art which is a two-sided coin.
Side one: real ability developed over years of hard training, testing and real combat.
Side Two: Inner peace and self awareness developed through the above.

Modern Kung Fu lacks both sides of that coin. That's why I say it $ucks and has no value.

I studied Kung Fu. I have sought out the top names. I challenged Emin Boztepe like an a$$hole at one of his seminars years ago. Posted the footage.

He was a class act. I learned from him. And since I've matured to the point where I don't have to post video of every little martial endeavor I have. I have plenty. I'm fighting and competing all the time now.

This related to what I said earlier, my training is my training and that's all that matters. What Kung Fu is doing is Kung Fu's business. But as someone out there mixing it up with all kinds of styles, I don't see Kung Fu out there.

If this bothers you, that's an issue for you and your Kung Fu brothers to address. Don't hate the messenger. A lot of you guys are teachers. Instead of hating on me and wondering what I'm doing, where are your students? Why haven't you produced that Kung Fu-only champion?

I always hear the same thing from Kung Fu, karate types: jobs, women, not enough time. That's it. Real fighters are married to their training. They work at their abilities. Kung Fu players like to look as if they do these things but they don't. Which brings us back to why Kung Fu aint out there.

You guys get on my case but I don't understand. Please answer this question: Do you really think Kung Fu only guys are out there wowing the fight world? Mixing it up with today's modern fighters at the various levels available to them?

Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe I've been hit too many times and am just missing all this Kung Fu mastery taking place seemingly before my very eyes.

Your post doesn't make any sense.
You say that kung fu sucks and then " I studied Kung Fu. I have sought out the top names. I challenged Emin Boztepe like an a$$hole at one of his seminars years ago. Posted the footage.

He was a class act. I learned from him. "

Well?
What happened?

David Jamieson

12-16-2008, 02:47 PM

This is my last post on the subject.

If anyone can go fight, then these Wing Chun, Hung Gar-only masters should go out and represent their styles and skills against other stylists of the same level (amateur/pro). The venues are there. The other fighters are there. Kung Fu is not there. there are san shou venues. that 's the kickboxing for cma. not enough? you want an old man leaping like a grasshopper to pwn tyson or something? what is it you're looking for and why should everything be defined on your terms?

Yes, fighting is only one-side of Kung Fu or any martial art which is a two-sided coin.
Side one: real ability developed over years of hard training, testing and real combat.
Side Two: Inner peace and self awareness developed through the above.

Modern Kung Fu lacks both sides of that coin. That's why I say it $ucks and has no value. It does have those things and imo your view has no value in this regard.

I studied Kung Fu. I have sought out the top names. I challenged Emin Boztepe like an a$$hole at one of his seminars years ago. Posted the footage. good for you, seeking out and actually receiving instruction are different things. I don't know what to say about Boztepe, I don't know him.

He was a class act. I learned from him. And since I've matured to the point where I don't have to post video of every little martial endeavor I have. I have plenty. I'm fighting and competing all the time now. again, good for you.

This related to what I said earlier, my training is my training and that's all that matters. What Kung Fu is doing is Kung Fu's business. But as someone out there mixing it up with all kinds of styles, I don't see Kung Fu out there. the more you go on, the more you don't seem to understand what kungfu is from where i sit.

If this bothers you, that's an issue for you and your Kung Fu brothers to address. Don't hate the messenger. A lot of you guys are teachers. Instead of hating on me and wondering what I'm doing, where are your students? Why haven't you produced that Kung Fu-only champion? kungfu only champions are out there, same as karate only etc etc. Not sure why you think this bothers us any more than correcting you for your erroneous and egrigious statements that blanket all chinese martial arts as useless because they don't play in yoru mma venue. a mark of your ignorance and intolerance and not mine or theirs (kungfu people)

I always hear the same thing from Kung Fu, karate types: jobs, women, not enough time. That's it. Real fighters are married to their training. They work at their abilities. Kung Fu players like to look as if they do these things but they don't. Which brings us back to why Kung Fu aint out there. not actually ray, it brings us back to you not being able to separate hobbiests, which exist in all martial arts camps including your own.

You guys get on my case but I don't understand. Please answer this question: Do you really think Kung Fu only guys are out there wowing the fight world? Mixing it up with today's modern fighters at the various levels available to them? there aren't any in the televised world of make believe that exists in the us, but in china, there's plenty of wow martial arts as well as all throughout asia, but i guess you don't get that channel an dtherefore they don't exist at all.

Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe I've been hit too many times and am just missing all this Kung Fu mastery taking place seemingly before my very eyes. ray, you're missing a LOT. not just something, but plenty.

Lucas

12-16-2008, 02:57 PM

The best way to learn about CMA fighters, would be to travel throughout china looking for them, and then fighting them.

You will find them, you will lose to some and win against others.

Likely you will be stuck with sanshou format to fight under. Might be missing the submission wrestling. But if you look further, you can find plenty of CMA being used in chinese MMA. Of course like any other style in the world, if its in MMA, its not going to be used alone.

take thai boxing for example. go to thailand and fight the best thai boxers you can find. you wont be allowed to do any submission fighting in a thai boxing match. but you can surely determine the effectiveness of the thai boxers stand up game. Same with CMA

except we change Thaiboxing to Sanshou. and change the Muay Thai to Kung Fu.

but there it is.

China is a big.

bawang

12-16-2008, 02:58 PM

Firearms....?

qing army had rifle forms
rifle existed since ming dynasty
adding firearms would be the next step of kung fu

David Jamieson

12-16-2008, 03:01 PM

Chinese martial arts are about fighting. That is what they were designed for. The whole idea of health, spiritual growth, etc were LATER, MUCH LATER "add ons"

If you are interested in just health, there are more efficient, and enjoyable, ways to improve you health. Some aspects of TCMA are potentially injurious. Others are in fact detrimental to health in the long run.

You'd be hard pressed to argue that today TCMA has NOT suffered. Its reputation as a fighting form has suffered a lot. There are frauds, and BS, and lots of people who talk about fighting without fighting.

By the same token, you can't say TCMA doesn't work. TCMA includes punches, kicks, elbows, knees, trips, sweeps, throws and pummeling. All these things are used in fights all the time....

The biggest problem is HOW TCMA are practiced... this falls down into several source problems

1. Outdated or misunderstood methods

2. Adherance to patently ridiculous myth being passed off as fact

3. Xenophobia, and unwillingness to adapt

4. Lack of real instructors, and many real instructors being as subjected to the above root problems as the frauds

all martial arts are about fighting. they are martial. however, kungfu is not only about fighting. perhaps that is where the fly in teh ointment lies with ray and his ilk.

kungfu is a whole person experience and has combat arts as an applied part of the awareness and understanding of ones place in the world and as a human being.

yoga is more than stretching and bending, there are other studies that are completely dropped from it because people just don't know about them or don't have the time or inclination to bother with anything more than what they believe is the core of it.

kungfu has sadly become or is heading this way in some respects and is dropping the meditation practice, the physiological study, the breath work and sundry other aspects that make for the whole art and why? Because people wanna fight with it only? TO me, that's stupid. You can go fight anywhere, but to find good kungfu is hard because many teachers can't or won't deliver the whole package.

kungfu is and always will be more than mere combat.
too bad for those of you who won't get the full course supper and instead feast on the scraps and insist that it tastes better.

It only tastes better because of ego and an unwillingness to accept the broader scope of it.

To let arts deteriorate because of desire is folly.

lkfmdc

12-16-2008, 03:14 PM

all martial arts are about fighting. they are martial. however, kungfu is not only about fighting. perhaps that is where the fly in teh ointment lies with ray and his ilk.

a car represents a lot of things to a lot of people, a status symbol, a sign of independence, etc... but it is still primarily a way to get from point A to point B

IE, no matter how shinny the side walls, if the engine doesn't run what good is it? Kung Fu is a fancy car that frequently doesn't run

TenTigers

12-16-2008, 03:16 PM

"Chrome won't get ya home."

(but it'll get ya laid!)

sanjuro_ronin

12-17-2008, 07:07 AM

qing army had rifle forms
rifle existed since ming dynasty
adding firearms would be the next step of kung fu

Even japan that was far more anti-firearm than China had MA that taught firearms.

MightyB

12-17-2008, 07:57 AM

qing army had rifle forms
rifle existed since ming dynasty
adding firearms would be the next step of kung fu

The last thing we need is another form- I can't even comprehend the ridiculousness of a firearms form--- although "Equilibrium" was a bad@ss movie... no- there's plenty of good CQB stuff out there that's already been proven to work- we just have to learn and incorporate some of it. Plus we need disarms that actually work.

MightyB

12-17-2008, 07:59 AM

Reality Self Defense training is appealing to the modern Executive in me.

Ray Pina

12-17-2008, 08:09 AM

I have gained some valuable things from Wing Chun, Mantis and a ton of stuff, been transformed by E-Chuan. Now I am studying Brazilian jiu-Jitsu. There are things I love about the style and things I don't like about the style. Right now I just shut up and train, at least until I put 5 years in and get to see some more.

Kung Fu, I have put in a fair amount of time. Probably have done more fighting during that time (sanctioned, challenge, street) than most here. Kung Fu has all the kicking, punching, locking, throwing... that is true. It is also true that Kung Fu has not produced a fighter than can be considered top-notch by today's standard.

Why?

Well, let's look at this community as an example. Everyone feels they are training the good stuff, the right way, with the proper Wu De... total martial artists. Better informed about the body, mind and soul than most other stylists.... how many total posts this past month? How many here have fought someone outside their kwoon this past month? How many hours trained this past month, on a given week?

Kung Fu just doesn't attract or create fighters. If it did, it would be producing them.

Fighters like to fight, not talk philosophical bull$hit. If they see something, they want to try it. And for real.

I don't understand what all the back and forth is. The problem is you. The Kung Fu players. The fights are there. You just have to rise to the challenge. The challenge to yourself and your skills.

Excuses? I know there will be many. Save them. I'm sure they'll need repeating in the future.

MightyB

12-17-2008, 08:18 AM

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I think you're overgeneralizing. One key component of your last argument was spot on though: "Kung Fu just doesn't attract or create fighters. If it did, it would be producing them." That is true- but that doesn't imply weakness of the art or anything. It just means that kung fu appeals to a different crowd than MMA. It can be trained hardcore- ILKMFD and Master Killer do that- but alot of the people I see in Kung Fu aren't there for that. Maybe it is a form of LARPing, but they seem pretty happy with that and I'm not going to rip them for that anymore. I found that I can indulge my aggressive/competitive nature in Judo- you found you could do it in BJJ- that's really not a good enough reason to trash all the kung fu out there.

Ray Pina

12-17-2008, 08:49 AM

To each their own for sure. I'm no hater. But if Kung Fu is going to claim martial art status, it needs to carry its own martial weight.

If there's going to be guys claiming that Kung Fu training produces a better character of martial artist, then we need to see it. So far, I see a bunch of people shirking their responsibilities as martial artists and teachers.

A secure martial artists is honest with himself and others.

Why am I glad my MMA fight got canceled? BECAUSE I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH YET!!!!!

I have done more fighting than most of the guys here combined and I can say I suck. I know my strengths and weaknesses. And I'm working to improve.

Kung Fu is all but dead and to read the posts here you would think it's in its golden age. These people need to wake up or shut up. But the funny thing is, it's these type of people that will talk you to death before taking action.

And then they get mad when you point it out to them.

TenTigers

12-17-2008, 12:50 PM

Kung Fu is all but dead and to read the posts here you would think it's in its golden age..

what exactly gives you the idea that Kung-Fu is dead?
Where do you get your information? From your own ideas and a few forums?
Did you notice that alot of people post on many forums? It is not the pulse of the Martial Arts world. In fact, most people on the forums are young, ignorant, beginner students.

I have been involved in Martial Arts for quite awhile. I have seen its ups and downs, but that is mainly due to booms, meaning you see its peaks and then when you see the valleys, you think it is dying. It is merely an ebb.

I have owned schools for over twenty years, and read many publications on the industry. Yes, industry. There are trade publications, websites, magazines that are geared strictly towards school owners and proffessionals. There are conventions, seminars, networking organizations. In all of these, top Martial Artists from around the globe discuss the industry.

Martial Arts is bigger than ever. Kung-Fu is not as popular as it was during its heyday-David Carradine/Bruce Lee era, but there are more Mo Kwoons popping up every day. Chinatown still has many schools. Doc Fai Wong has a huge organization, Buk Sing CLF is growing and opening up more schools, Yee's Hung-Ga, Lau Family, Chiu Family, Lam Family-all big and growing. Styles that used to be obscure and less known are opening up schools. Now you see Southern Mantis, Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Buk Sing, Ngor Cho, etc.

Kung-Fu is far from dying. And as far as MMA is concerned-most schools are adapting more fighting and grappling into their curriculums.
You will see more and more Kung-Fu schools offereing shuai-jiao before you turn around. ( My prediction.)

Just because YOU don't see Kung-Fu in MMA events has no bearing on the art. You also don't see Tai Chi in MMA events. Tai Chi is HUGE.

"Jeang dai ji wa" is an expression that means,"A frog at the bottom of the well."
He is in his own little world, and when he looks up, all he sees is this little circle of sky, and from his limited experience, he judges the world. When in actuality, he knows nothing.

Golden Arms

12-17-2008, 12:54 PM

Ten Tigers nailed it.

lkfmdc

12-17-2008, 12:59 PM

TCMA isn't dying, but it sure has changed directions. In the "old days" every school in Chinatown had some boxing gloves in a corner and at some point in the week everyone did some sparring

While we see some very large organizations, we see less and less fighting in TCMA. Look at the CMA tournaments, you can get 1000 people doing forms these days, still how many to do san shou/san da?

Sure, people are "adding in fighting" in response to the MMA wave, but how "real" is it? Have you seen NAPMA's "MMA program"? NO different than all the other "add ins" they offer....

TenTigers

12-17-2008, 02:03 PM

I agree lkfmdc, the McKwoons will jump on the bandwagon, or get left behind-but, it's a start. They are opening their eyes.
I agree about the ad-ons. Gracies have an ad-on program, just as Krav Magaa, Swain Judo,Bully Buster, Cardio Kickboxing, and pretty soon Kisi will be part of it.

I guess we could call it,"MMA Lite";)

bawang

12-17-2008, 02:37 PM

The last thing we need is another form- I can't even comprehend the ridiculousness of a firearms form--- although "Equilibrium" was a bad@ss movie... no- there's plenty of good CQB stuff out there that's already been proven to work- we just have to learn and incorporate some of it. Plus we need disarms that actually work.

im not talking about adding firearm forms
im talking about adding firearms

Lucas

12-17-2008, 02:45 PM

im not talking about adding firearm forms
im talking about adding firearms

not too far fetched either.

I know a local place that teaches firearm use and saftey as well as advanced tactics and CQB work.

They also offer thai boxing.

I think you can play airsoft there as well.

David Jamieson

12-17-2008, 03:17 PM

I took tactical small arms training. Twice. It was awesome! Both times. lol

Move through a course, pop ups, baddies and neutrals, blind spots, quick looks, drop n roll firing all sorts of really useful information on how to move through spaces with a firearm and use it effectively.

also huge lesson in situational awareness. If you can get this training, I recommend it. It is a highly relevant skill in this day and age imo.

Ray Pina

12-17-2008, 06:17 PM

what exactly gives you the idea that Kung-Fu is dead?
Where do you get your information? From your own ideas and a few forums?

I base my conclusion not on what I read online or in magazines but on what I see out in the field. Whenever I see men strapping on 12 oz gloves, 4 oz gloves, no gloves.... I see all types of garb: American Thai Boxers with strings wrapped around their biceps, wrestlers with tight shorts, guys like me who where their traditional gi top to stay warm back stage.... where are these Kung Fu robbed saints strutting around with trophies for their drunken form? Obviously whooing MMA crowds in, where was it, Malaysia? And I'm guessing your student is moonlighting in BJJ somewhere, no? To compete in MMA?

Anyway, these Kung Fu guys just aren't around. They open their mouth large and wide here, but they aint itching to go out and do something. Believe me, if a guy went out and got knocked out it would be posted all over the place. Guys post training clips like it's something. And even the training is weak a$$. Sorry.

I have seen its ups and downs, but that is mainly due to booms, meaning you see its peaks and then when you see the valleys, you think it is dying. It is merely an ebb.
Can you refer me to the time when Kung Fu was at its peak? Not from a media standpoint. Jackie Chan can still sell some tickets. And who doesn't love Bruce Lee.

I'm talking about a time when Kung Fu boxers were, not even beating and dominating, but even hanging with western boxers. Hell, when have they even dominated hardcore karate guys? Never!

I have owned schools for over twenty years, and read many publications on the industry. Yes, industry. There are trade publications, websites, magazines that are geared strictly towards school owners and proffessionals. There are conventions, seminars, networking organizations. In all of these, top Martial Artists from around the globe discuss the industry.
This has nothing to do with Kung Fu's decline... or maybe it does.

Martial Arts is bigger than ever. Kung-Fu is not as popular as it was during its heyday-David Carradine/Bruce Lee era, but there are more Mo Kwoons popping up every day. Chinatown still has many schools. Doc Fai Wong has a huge organization, Buk Sing CLF is growing and opening up more schools, Yee's Hung-Ga, Lau Family, Chiu Family, Lam Family-all big and growing. Styles that used to be obscure and less known are opening up schools. Now you see Southern Mantis, Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Buk Sing, Ngor Cho, etc.
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of people making bank selling the Kung Fu dream. This is why these people use words to defend the fact that out of all these schools and how many champions? Fu(k... how many boxing champions has this little island I live on alone produced. All those names. All those organizations.... legends that words built. Where is the substance?

I'm not talking about tough guys. Tough guys are a dime a dozen. I'm talking about a champion. A man who can hold his head high with the best of the best... the St. Pierres, the Silvas. And I know Kung FU guys don't consider these guys high level fighters. They look at them as brutes. But that's because they are that far removed from the reality of the thing. Those two men are masters at many skills. And improving.

Kung-Fu is far from dying. And as far as MMA is concerned-most schools are adapting more fighting and grappling into their curriculums.
You will see more and more Kung-Fu schools offereing shuai-jiao before you turn around. ( My prediction.)
Then maybe we will see something someday. And maybe Apple will trade for $150 a share tomorrow. I hope so.

Just because YOU don't see Kung-Fu in MMA events has no bearing on the art. You also don't see Tai Chi in MMA events. Tai Chi is HUGE.

"Jeang dai ji wa" is an expression that means,"A frog at the bottom of the well."
He is in his own little world, and when he looks up, all he sees is this little circle of sky, and from his limited experience, he judges the world. When in actuality, he knows nothing.

Yes. I know that story.

I also know the one of the raven that thinks the Phoenix wants to eat his rat... when the Phoenix only dines on a very special, rare dew that is not easily found.

TenTigers

12-17-2008, 06:48 PM

in Aguada, I had a student that teaches Hung-Ga. He also ran the full contact fights in PR, and his school dominated them as well. He fought full contact in Taiwan and got the silver. We have since lost touch, but what I am saying is that they are out there.
In the 70's and 80's, there was Tayari Cassel, Paul Vizzio, who dominated Karate guys, and in PKA, there were many Chinese stylists. I think lkfmdc can come up with several more.

My guy did not moonlight in BJJ, we have had people from all disciplines teaching in our Kwoon. Guys from Shuai Jiao, NHB fighters, GrecoRoman, Collegiate wrestling, Judo,Silat,etc. My good friend and Sifu, Chao Hung does Mohnguok Seut Gow (Guangzhao SJ) and has helped us bring that into our teachings as well.

He does, however "moonlight" in Muay Boran and Muay Chaya, and krabi-krabong. He is a direct student of Gen. Adjorn Amnat, and trains in Thailand several months out of the year.

and, you're not actually 'out in the field.' You are in here and there, at little known venues.
(not discreditiong your efforts, just your penchant for exagerrating) You do not speak on a regular basis with heads of schools, organizations, and systems.
If I want real information, I will listen to people who have their finger on the pulse of MMA and especially Chinese MMA. People like lkfmdc, who has been in the trenches since its inception.

bawang

12-17-2008, 09:37 PM

in high school china we use kung fu in school fights all the time
its just people here learn kung fu because of kung fu fantasy movies, its understandable why make a big fuss
also a lot of the chinese kung fu people i met are just tired of teaching westerners, i know one guy hasnt taught for 20 years another for 15 theres more to kung fu than wing chun and hung ga ray pina

KC Elbows

12-18-2008, 04:34 AM

Honestly, I don't know a single kung fu player of note in my area who has not, in the last few years, begun competing mma or training for it. The players I most hang with have all this year done their first mma bouts with decent results, especially as far as striking goes, with decent showings on the ground.

I don't see the problem.

Now, there are other kung fu guys in the area that are not progressive in this area, but they generally never were progressive. Since they are not noteworthy, why worry about them?

In my own circle, I have spent a long time doggedly working to get people solely working on the core style, drop unnecessary forms(that aren't that old anyway) and drill moves not only in the stereotypical application manner(distance set, timing unreal, etc), but instead see that as merely figuring out the details, but lesser to drilling live.

If you want to list the problems with a lot of kung fu players, here's my contribution:

1) Completely unthought out training priorities: normal people often try to learn skill sets that complement their weaknesses, some people instead learn twelve approaches to striking just because they're all Chinese, usually not truly drilling any one of them to competence.

2) Confucian doctrine/I must defend tradition- if all you know of Confucius is the Analects, then don't quit your day job, leave it to actual scholars to tell other people Chinese traditions(this goes double for Chinese people who aren't scholars of Confucian texts, sorry, Grandmaster, but if you don't seem to be living the pressure that is supposed to be at the top of the Confucian paradigm, you're taking advantage).

3) Modern equipment isn't traditional- neither is the polio vaccine, but they both enable you to continue your activities while protecting you from injury.

4) Weapons forms are nothing- sorry, but you need to at least shadow box with the moves to even look natural holding your weapon, if all you do is the form, you're not getting it.

5) Repetition solves everything- nothing wrong with working a thing, but you need to apply your move from various situations, not one.

6) Just me and my form/practice- great job, you've taken a practice that involves at least one other person and turned it into solitaire. Get a friend and have them hit you, then thank them for it.

7) This/that style sucks- wanna know a really old tradition that has been completely forgotten by a lot of so-called traditionalists? Stealing other people's stuff. Style bashers generally know nothing about what they speak of.

8) Only my style has X. Probably not. See #9.

9) The books and some magazines. I understand this is driven by the providers of content, but 90% of kung fu books are a form with no applications, with usually no clear signs that the practitioners know them. I understand for PRC wushu books, which downplay fighting among comrades, this is so, but this is hardly the only place it happens. If the book lacks the style in action, aside from text only books, then it isn't worth studying from a fighting perspective. I collect solely books with fighting content, compare it with what I know, and generally, improve by the comparison. My last trip in China, I combed through the book stores and came back with useful books, more than I can find here. One great book was simply the applications of Chen style, one after the other. Others were SC, sanshou, etc. And I am almost 100% certain that of the ten or twelve people I've met who knew a chain whip form, only one actually knew what it was he was supposed to be doing TO SOMEONE ELSE(SEE #6 AGAIN!!!)

10) If it's from China, it's precious. Sorry, but the best move I ever did was NOT look for kung fu teachers while I was in China. They started looking for me, and I was quickly able to weed out the less skilled and more annoying, and the more skilled found me and treated me like a fellow practitioner, instead of a cash cow. There's plenty of mediocre and bad stuff in China, and only more good stuff because there's more practitioners, and more competition between schools. If you immediately go looking for a "master" and never put people through the necessary things to show they are that, you could easily end up studying drek.

sanjuro_ronin

12-18-2008, 06:31 AM

On advice of a far wise sage, I picked up Brian kennedy's and Elizabeth Guo's book about Chinese MA training manuals,
This discussion is nothing new it seems.
CMA have had these issues since they became "civilized".

Vajramusti

12-18-2008, 07:31 AM

Not uncommon. Folks often generalise about all of kung fu whereas their surveys are not real surveys- nationwide, world wide etc.Nothing wrong with commenting on what you see. But what is in front of your nose is not necessarilt the whole world.

Good TCMA sifus = there is not one in every kwoon.Even in traditional days you searched for a good teacher.

There are very good TCMA practitioners but not all such folks jabber on chat lists or post on U Tube. And if you hurt someone with TCMA skills it's not wise to go bragging about it or make
a public announcement about it. Legal implications are factors in any serious confrontation.

joy chaudhuri

YouKnowWho

12-19-2008, 03:18 AM

list the problems ... 3) Modern equipment isn't traditional…10) If it's from China, it's precious.
I agree with everything that you have said but I have different opinion on these 2.

3) Modern equipment isn't traditional

I go to gym regularly and I have a personal gym set up at home myself. So far I still have not be able to find any modern training equipment that can achieve the same result as the traditional one. For example, the traditional weight pully requires a long rope (as long as 25 to 30 feet). This way, when you release that rope, the rope will carry a wave from your hands to the other end and that can delay the pulling come from the dropping of the weight. This will give you a "surprised" pulling that will force your body to react to it. The rope of the weight pully in the modern gym is just too short (10 - 15 feet) to train this function. Since it's metal wire rope, it doesn't create any waves. Also I cannot find any training tool in the modern gym that can develop a "2 arms twisting" such as:

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

There are many special ancient CMA training tools such as:

- pole hanging
- scoop a ball out of a hole,
- use your leg to twist a single head pole.
- long bag training,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KJG0tFJe4g&feature=related

are not available from the modern equipment design.

10) If it's from China, it's precious:

Since this kind of ancient equipment training knowledge is still not available in the western world. The KB is similiar to the stone lock but some of the stone lock training methods are still missing in the KB training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlVUcNQIhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddnosDhAQos

Since this knowledge still have to come from China, it's precious information IMO.

Ray Pina

12-19-2008, 04:34 AM

Kung Fu is heading where you take it.

sanjuro_ronin

12-19-2008, 05:08 AM

I agree with everything that you have said but I have different opinion on these 2.

3) Modern equipment isn't traditional

I go to gym regularly and I have a personal gym set up at home myself. So far I still have not be able to find any modern training equipment that can achieve the same result as the traditional one. For example, the traditional weight pully requires a long rope (as long as 25 to 30 feet). This way, when you release that rope, the rope will carry a wave from your hands to the other end and that can delay the pulling come from the dropping of the weight. This will give you a "surprised" pulling that will force your body to react to it. The rope of the weight pully in the modern gym is just too short (10 - 15 feet) to train this function. Since it's metal wire rope, it doesn't create any waves. Also I cannot find any training tool in the modern gym that can develop a "2 arms twisting" such as:

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

There are many special ancient CMA training tools such as:

- pole hanging
- scoop a ball out of a hole,
- use your leg to twist a single head pole.
- long bag training,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KJG0tFJe4g&feature=related

are not available from the modern equipment design.

10) If it's from China, it's precious:

Since this kind of ancient equipment training knowledge is still not available in the western world. The KB is similiar to the stone lock but some of the stone lock training methods are still missing in the KB training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMlVUcNQIhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddnosDhAQos

Since this knowledge still have to come from China, it's precious information IMO.

Nice stuff John, thanks for that.

SimonM

12-19-2008, 02:30 PM

Shameless bump

KC Elbows

12-19-2008, 03:48 PM

Since this knowledge still have to come from China, it's precious information IMO.

I agree, and great post. My point wasn't that there was never good equipment in China. I'm saying that whatever gear allows you to train aspects of your fighting well is good. There's the heavy bag, gloves that, while often preventing use of many traditional hand techniques, still leaves a lot of things that can be trained, etc, just as there is useful traditional equipment.

The "Everything from China is precious" comment is more about people not being discerning regarding things Chinese. The most public teachers or those most trying to get a student want students, but somewhere there's a guy who, in order to make sure everybody gets well trained, can only take on one or two more students, and he wants somebody who's a good fit. Obviously for some people visiting China, language is an issue, but a martial artist with talent can find a very good teacher in China, and I think many who go never really get to experience this to the extent they could, though it is very likely these days that they will come out of most training they undertake there with a knowledge of sanshou in addition to whatever forms they might pick up, which is good.