Comparison between wing chun and other long rang fighting styles

[Hitman]

Dear all,

According to one of Sifu Leung Ting's books - the effectiveness of a technique depends on how long it takes to complete the technique.

If this is the case then how come some choy lee fut practitioners using their long rang technique can beat some wing chun practitioners?

Sifu Duncan Leung mentioned that choy lee fut techniques seem to be designed to counter wing chun techniques.

Or

Jumping side kick used in kick boxing matches - Benny "The jet" Urquidez using jumping side/ back kick in some of his kick boxing matches.
A jumping kick takes at least twice the time to complete than a kick from a stationary position.

My question is why does the statement above does not apply to choy lee fut and any other practitioners who use long rang techniques in fighting.



Please can we have good constructive discussion about it and not turning this thread into who can beat who.



Thank you very much

[taai gihk yahn]

<distractedly wanders into thread, realizes what's going on, slowly backs out, slams door, runs like he1l>

[bawang]

i said something but i just remembered who leu ting was

LOL

i guess he means fastest man wins

[taai gihk yahn]

i said something but i just remembered who leu ting was

LOL
<sticks head back in door>
you do realize that you are making a reference to a post that you just deleted, right?

[bawang]

i know mom
hitman i guess from what u posted urself its not the fastest man wins its the strongest man

[TenTigers]

i know mom
hitman i guess from what u posted urself its not the fastest man wins its the strongest man
Well, which would you like to be hit with the least; a fast deadly eye strike, or a strong deadly eye strike?

[David Jamieson]

hold a gathering.

profess your style.

fight.

last man standing wins.

[taai gihk yahn]

i know mom
happy to help, son

[lkfmdc]

However Offensive discussions on Wing chun May be to Ultimate fighters, Chances are that any Hard Work on effective tOOls Definitely Could result in effective Offensive tactics.

Ulitimately, Lower level Don’t Acquire through Work the tOOls they Desire until Constant Hard and diligent practice of the techniqUes

Consider Kungfu Contemporary Historically stUcK

[KC Elbows]

...According to one of Sifu Leung Ting's books - the effectiveness of a technique depends on how long it takes to complete the technique. ..

...If this is the case then how come some choy lee fut practitioners using their long rang technique can beat some wing chun practitioners? ...

The effectiveness of a technique does depend(in part) on how long it takes to complete the technique, though I don't know in what way Leung Ting was saying it did.

If the opening has to be found, quick jabs are appropriate. More dedicated moves might be ill advised or risky.

If one has their opponent at a disadvantage and has increased the opportunities for attack, and made a large enough opening for pretty much any attack, one quick jab would seem silly.

Each case effectiveness dependent on length of execution.

[Yum Cha]

Dear all,

According to one of Sifu Leung Ting's books - the effectiveness of a technique depends on how long it takes to complete the techniques

Thank you very much

Unfortunately, as with all sweeping generalisations, they are more wrong than right.
There is wisdom in the statement, and you've puzzled it out a bit yourself, you're on the right track.

Nobody can give you the answer, everybody's answers are different. And in different situations, the answers change.

Speed without power is why point fighters get wasted against good fighters. You can barely see their hands and feet move as they bound around like a mongoose and snake.

Power with no speed, watch a BBJ guy take a striker down, stabilise, move through side position 1,2, into a guard, slowly develop a triangle choke, and work it to a finish. Sure, speed may flair here and there, but it can be like watching two slugs mate.

Nothing is absolute. Speed, power, strategy, luck, grit, aggression, intelligence, terrain and so many more variables come into play.

As you can probably tell, you won't get a lot of good discussion off this.

[YouKnowWho]

Nothing is absolute.
The best counter for straight line attack is the circle attack. The best counter for circle attack is the straight line attack. If your opponent uses straight punch at your face, a 45 degree downward hook punch can interrupt his straight punch. If your opponent uses a hook punch and if you can dodge under it, a straight punch to his kidney may finish the fight.

The choy lee fut double circle punches (same direction) followed by a kick to the stomatch is one of the best combos that I have ever seen.

[Ray Pina]

I would say it's not the technique that's the "fastest" but the one that lands first.

I have seen Wing Chun guys rifle off countless chain punches in 5 seconds, 10 seconds, etc... none have power. A straight blast with no hip, shoulder, waist in it might land first, but not cause as much damage as an arcing strike.

Also, I have spent considerable time in the past working specifically on beating Wing Chun guys in Chi Sau, as this was the primary groups of folks that I would train and compare with. I like Wing Chun, but for all of its talk of directness, I actually find the style spends too much time chasing hands looking for fuk sau or pac sau. when the hands should be going to the target and let the elbows do the reflecting.

Or, punch the arm. And then turn it into fuk sau or pac sau depending on if your strike deflects inside or outside. Best if it lands square though. This is getting a way from the point though.

Good topic. I for one prefer front kicks to round houses because they're sharp, penetrating and great to stop a charging man. Fast, direct, effective. But sometimes the longer route pays for dividends.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The effectiveness of a techniques is based on how much damage it can inflict.

[Drake]

Striking doesn't matter. It always becomes a ground fight anyway!

*runs into the woods screaming*

[SimonM]

it can be like watching two slugs mate.


Eurgh, that is the yuckiest simile I've seen all week.

[bakxierboxer]

I would say it's not the technique that's the "fastest" but the one that lands first.
{snip}

... I for one prefer front kicks to round houses because they're sharp, penetrating and great to stop a charging man. Fast, direct, effective. But sometimes the longer route pays for dividends.


"Interesting"..... primarily because this is the first time I've seen you post something "technical" with which I can agree.... and then you went and made it TWO things!

This also raises a question I've had for quite a while...
WHY is it that I've seldom seen front kicks used in MMA?
(especially in light of the fact that 'most players" are "wide open" in the midsection?)

As for "longer routes", those will be available (or not) depending on the player's "guard".... or if it even exists at all.

[SimonM]

It's because of two things: 1) it's relatively easy to screw up a front kick and end up on your ass. A roundhouse is slightly safer. Slightly.

2) A lot of the guys doing MMA were trained in MT as their primary kicking art. MT is heavy on roundhouse kicks and light on everything else.

[bakxierboxer]

It's because of two things: 1) it's relatively easy to screw up a front kick and end up on your ass. A roundhouse is slightly safer. Slightly.


You must've learned "different" kicking than I did.

[Yum Cha]

I like Wing Chun, but for all of its talk of directness, I actually find the style spends too much time chasing hands looking for fuk sau or pac sau. when the hands should be going to the target and let the elbows do the reflecting.

Ray, there you go, giving away all the secrets....:D

[Yum Cha]

This also raises a question I've had for quite a while...
WHY is it that I've seldom seen front kicks used in MMA?
(especially in light of the fact that 'most players" are "wide open" in the midsection?)
.

Didn't Cung Lee take out an opponent with a front kick to the liver?

[SimonM]

You must've learned "different" kicking than I did.

I'm a wrestler and rarely kick at all. But I have caught more front kicks than roundhouse. From that I sort of assumed. ;)

[bakxierboxer]

Didn't Cung Lee take out an opponent with a front kick to the liver?

?????
Dunno, but if he did, that'd be ONE!

OTOH, Cung Le IS a bit of an "exception" when compared to most MMA types.

[Lucas]

As much wood as a woodchuck could chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

[bakxierboxer]

I'm a wrestler and rarely kick at all. But I have caught more front kicks than roundhouse. From that I sort of assumed. ;)

Heh!
My, my..... "how about that!?!

To me, this means that you actually haven't been exposed to ANY "legitimate" kicks.
(as done by an experienced TMA fighter)

Now, all you've got to do is figure out why/how I can say that. :D

(now, all I have to do is figure out how this thread puts Wing Chun into the "long hand" range/class)
((which actually plays into the reason for my own statement))

[YouKnowWho]

But I have caught more front kicks than roundhouse.
That's interest. It's much easier to grab a stick that swinging at you body (timing is not critical) than to catch a spear that stab at your heart (timing is critical). The front kick coming in as a straight line and leave as a straight line. If you miss that gap, that kick has already been pulled back. The round house kick come in as a curve and leave as a curve. You can catch it before it lands on your body or after it leaves from your body.

You can always move in and run your opponent down (squeeze the space) to counter a round house kick and whether you can catch that kick or not is not important any more. But if you do that to a front kick then you may run into that kick.

I do agree that both front kick and round house kick can be caught. But we may have different opinion on which one is easier to catch than the other. The reason is simple, when you see a round house kick coming at you, you can move in and ignore that kick (since that kick is not in your moving path). If you can move in fast enough, you may catch his leg below the knee (easy to hold). When you see a front kick come in at you, you have to deflect that kick then move in (since that kick is in your moving path). You may catch his ankle which is not easy to hold since his knee is still free. There is just one more step there that will slow down your shooting (if you are a wrestler).

[Mr Punch]

2) A lot of the guys doing MMA were trained in MT as their primary kicking art. MT is heavy on roundhouse kicks and light on everything else.This is wrong. Yup, they're heavy on roundhouses, but teeps are a staple too, and not to be messed with.


I'm a wrestler and rarely kick at all. But I have caught more front kicks than roundhouse. From that I sort of assumed. ;)You've been training with people who can't throw good front kicks.


This also raises a question I've had for quite a while...
WHY is it that I've seldom seen front kicks used in MMA?You mostly watch American MMA? Go back and watch Pride, Shooto, Deep, K1 Max (MMA rules) or whatever. All of the Japanese promotions use fighters who are heavier trained in Thai and Kyokushin/Seidokaikan etc and have and use good front kicks. The latest generation of American MMAers, I think, a stronger base in grappling arts and a more generic approach to striking arts.

[bakxierboxer]

This is wrong. Yup, they're heavy on roundhouses, but teeps are a staple too, and not to be messed with.

You've been training with people who can't throw good front kicks.

There is that, and also "another element".



You mostly watch American MMA? Go back and watch Pride, Shooto, Deep, K1 Max (MMA rules) or whatever. All of the Japanese promotions use fighters who are heavier trained in Thai and Kyokushin/Seidokaikan etc and have and use good front kicks. The latest generation of American MMAers, I think, a stronger base in grappling arts and a more generic approach to striking arts.

I mostly make a point of "not watching" that stuff... although I think I've run across it while channel-surfing.
I still see little in the way of effective/actual MA skills.... and seldom end up watching more than a few minutes of it.

[Mr Punch]

Eh? So what MMA DO you watch?! Most of the Japanese and Japanese trained, Chinese and Thai fighters I've seen in MMA use front kicks and effectively... You're saying you don't watch American MMA, but you don't see front kicks? :confused:

[bakxierboxer]

Eh? So what MMA DO you watch?! Most of the Japanese and Japanese trained, Chinese and Thai fighters I've seen in MMA use front kicks and effectively... You're saying you don't watch American MMA, but you don't see front kicks? :confused:

Whatever is on late nights.
I don't care enough about the stuff to remember the names of the organizations.

I see altogether too much punching/kicking "at" people, as opposed to actually hitting them.

[lianweizhi]

I think one reason front kicks and side kicks (my personal favorite) aren't used as often is similar to what someone above mentioned already - most people trained primarily in roundhouse kicks and probably aren't very good at fronts and sides.

I agree with YouKnowWho's spear analogy, which is why I like the side kick so much - the last few sparring matches I've participated in with headgear and cup I've been able to land about 4 or 5 of these and leave just one or two footprints - yay for accuracy! But I would say few people have the flexibility to control the side kick as well as they should, to be able to land them on a consistent basis.

The second thing about the front and side kicks is that they do tend to be pretty easy to catch... if you meet the right (or wrong) person doing them. With these kicks, it is almost as important, if not moreso, to be quick to chamber as it is to be quick to deliver. Quick to deliver is obvious - force = mass x acceleration. But quick to re-chamber prevents your leg from getting caught. Flexibility also plays a big part here - more flexible guys (and gals) can retract their leg on the same trajectory that they attacked, providing less space to catch. Guys that get caught often simply fall into the opponent's grasp, even if they landed the kick, because they failed to retract quickly enough.

That said, I still love me some roundhouse kicks. My sifu used these even more than his hook kick (which his accuracy with still bewilders me to this day... I think I could literally run and hide in the bathroom and still get hit in the head by that kick), targeting the thighs and feet to trip you up or otherwise impair your ability to move.

[diego]

I think one reason front kicks and side kicks (my personal favorite) aren't used as often is similar to what someone above mentioned already - most people trained primarily in roundhouse kicks and probably aren't very good at fronts and sides.

I agree with YouKnowWho's spear analogy, which is why I like the side kick so much - the last few sparring matches I've participated in with headgear and cup I've been able to land about 4 or 5 of these and leave just one or two footprints - yay for accuracy! But I would say few people have the flexibility to control the side kick as well as they should, to be able to land them on a consistent basis.

The second thing about the front and side kicks is that they do tend to be pretty easy to catch... if you meet the right (or wrong) person doing them. With these kicks, it is almost as important, if not moreso, to be quick to chamber as it is to be quick to deliver. Quick to deliver is obvious - force = mass x acceleration. But quick to re-chamber prevents your leg from getting caught. Flexibility also plays a big part here - more flexible guys (and gals) can retract their leg on the same trajectory that they attacked, providing less space to catch. Guys that get caught often simply fall into the opponent's grasp, even if they landed the kick, because they failed to retract quickly enough.

That said, I still love me some roundhouse kicks. My sifu used these even more than his hook kick (which his accuracy with still bewilders me to this day... I think I could literally run and hide in the bathroom and still get hit in the head by that kick), targeting the thighs and feet to trip you up or otherwise impair your ability to move.
stop hits...can't catch when you fully extended. sparring is for sissies who didn't get beat by their pops. kung fu is defense according to bruce. :)

[lianweizhi]

Not sure what you mean by "stop hits" but as far as the full extension comment, I beg to differ... catching a full extension kick can be easily done if you create the right spacing. One of the main drills I work is hollowing out your torso to let the opponent get full extension but lessen the impact to you, and the leg will just drop into your waiting arms underneath, at which point you can follow up with a rear leg sweep or just push forward and knock him down.

Of course, if you don't have the right spacing, you will eat the kick, but IMO, one of the most important things a good fighter should have is a sense of spacing and timing - the right spacing allows you to generate maximum power.

[SimonM]

Heh!
My, my..... "how about that!?!
To me, this means that you actually haven't been exposed to ANY "legitimate" kicks.
(as done by an experienced TMA fighter)


No that would be a mistake. I've sparred against strikers before.

I've also been in fights with people who weren't wrestlers.

I have had plenty of opportunities to defend against kicks.

I just personally don't use them much.

Except for the low roundhouse... I love that thing. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Didn't Cung Lee take out an opponent with a front kick to the liver?

I believe it was a round kick, one those tight, triangular round kicks that some people do, other than those "wide looping MT round kicks".

[sanjuro_ronin]

A good front kick is not a "typical" teep, as many MT coaches tend to "push" the teep rather than use it as a "traditional" front kick.
While you certainly can push the front kick, any front kick, a typical TMA front kick tends to dive in and THROUGH the target, making its buckle unto itself.
If its higher than solar plexus level it will drive the person back, but at or lower than that level, it should make the person "crumple" upon impact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A "not so bad" lead leg front kick from Pat Smith:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0R_g8lNgk

An angled front kick:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ351FDtPA

[YouKnowWho]

The beauty of the front kick is most of the time your opponent will run into your kick if he has strong intention to knock your head off. It's a kick that can counter all kind of punches (because your leg is longer than your opponent's arm).

The front kick can also give you a chance to build your "leg bridge" but that will be a complete different subject.

IMO, the front kick is "CMA 101" that will give you the most reward for your training time investment.

[bakxierboxer]

No that would be a mistake. I've sparred against strikers before.

????
I thought that you were one of those guys that didn't think "sparring" was any good, since you need to work against a "fully resisting" opponent.



I've also been in fights with people who weren't wrestlers.

I have had plenty of opportunities to defend against kicks.

Judging from what you've written so far, apparently not against experienced TMA fighters.



I just personally don't use them much.

I've figured that out already.



Except for the low roundhouse... I love that thing. ;)

I have no use for it at all.... except as a target.

[SimonM]

????
I thought that you were one of those guys that didn't think "sparring" was any good, since you need to work against a "fully resisting" opponent.


I think you have me mistaken for somebody else, sir, I have never espoused that sparring was no good. I love sparring. I think a sparring match much better "resistive training" than forms and advocate sparring regularly.



Judging from what you've written so far, apparently not against experienced TMA fighters.


Are you suggesting that forms of grappling aren't traditional? I'm a CMA guy. Just one who does less of the kicky-kicky and more of the trippy-throwy.

[bakxierboxer]

I think you have me mistaken for somebody else, sir, I have never espoused that sparring was no good. I love sparring. I think a sparring match much better "resistive training" than forms and advocate sparring regularly.


That hasn't been apparent to me, until you just said that.



Are you suggesting that forms of grappling aren't traditional? I'm a CMA guy. Just one who does less of the kicky-kicky and more of the trippy-throwy.

Not so much that, as you don't seem to have had much experience against folks who actually trained in combat/application-oriented striking/kicking TMA.
Your experiences/conclusions about front/round kicks are evidence of that, and I don't appear to be "The Lone Ranger" when I point that out.

FINDING the "right" TMA is not nearly as easy as it might be.... it's probably the case that it was easier "back in the day".

[SimonM]

Actually it took me a long time to settle on a wrestling methodology and I went to many schools throughout my youth finding a right fight. Prior to the kung fu school I ended up at the best-fit was an early-teenage stint at a judo school but they closed.

I have boxed (even entering into a semi-pro match, which I lost).
I have done kick boxing.
I have wrestled and done submission wrestling.
I have been in fights in uncontrolled environments.

I'm not the world's greatest kicker, I'll admit that, but I am really good at smacking people with the earth.

So, in short, I agree that finding a good fit style / school / method is hard.

[bakxierboxer]

Actually it took me a long time to settle on a wrestling methodology and I went to many schools throughout my youth finding a right fight. Prior to the kung fu school I ended up at the best-fit was an early-teenage stint at a judo school but they closed.

I don't believe that I ever had a "bad fit" within any school I attended.
It also seems that every school I walked in to was a "good fit".... :cool:
OK, I didn't walk into all that many. :D



I'm not the world's greatest kicker...

Me neither. :D
(otoh, I used to make a few bucks from bar-bets.... ) :D :D



I'll admit that, but I am really good at smacking people with the earth.

A little difference here, too.... I tend to like using the earth as an anvil.



So, in short, I agree that finding a good fit style / school / method is hard.

YMMV?
For some, it has to be.... that is their "path".

[SimonM]

That is something I can most certainly agree on.