Horse's ass?

[Mr Punch]

In weightlifting, to support heavy loads we are taught to arch the back in a concave manner. In TMA, in the horse we are taught to tuck the base of the spine in (making a slight convex back). In boxing we are taught to sit on our punches (which naturally leads to a slightly tucked, convex lower back if I'm right).

Of course, my power generation in weightlifting is different to that in MA, but it shares a lot of points: rooting, explosiveness, connectivity along the spine and through the hips... even to locking out the hips and keeping connectivity between the shoulder blades (which is emphasized in some MA)...

What do you do in your style? Have you ever experimented with a different position (there's also the 'S-back' espoused by some)? What were the results? What do you see as pros and cons?

[Oso]

imo, GREAT effing topic.

the spine...everything passes through it, one way or the other.

basically, in my backyard physics analysis, you can initially break the spine in to two planes (x and y)

calling x the verticle and y the horizontal, you basically have two methods of power 'generation' or 'transference'

X/Vert 'power' is shown in xingyi, western wrestling (the head snap preamble to a lower level shoot {credit to MP for pointing that out a couple of years back}, and a lot of mantis stuff in our line (Peng Lai) via a lot of short striking up the center combined with short choppy footwork pumping the hips vertically and transferring the power to the arms via the spine.

Y/Horiz 'power' is shown, well everywhere a little more obviously than the X axis, IMHO, but most punches and kicks of any 'style' evolve out of the Y axis of the hips torquing the spine and releasing through the shoulders.

'S' backs vs. concave vs. convex...doesn't it really come down to the transition between one to the other?

well, I imagine, cuz I don't know specifically, that if you were to take in to account the connective points of ALL the muscles... you could show how one 'arch' of the spine vs. the other would provide a better angle for specific muscles to transfer power to the limbs...

this is a very deeeeep subject...or maybe it's just the bourbon? :D

[Mr Punch]

basically, in my backyard physics analysis, you can initially break the spine in to two planes (x and y)LOL, I'd rather not be breaking my spine in any plane! :eek: :D


X/Vert 'power' is shown in xingyi, western wrestling (the head snap preamble to a lower level shoot {credit to MP for pointing that out a couple of years back}, and a lot of mantis stuff in our line (Peng Lai) via a lot of short striking up the center combined with short choppy footwork pumping the hips vertically and transferring the power to the arms via the spine.Hmm, similar vertical power is supposed to be in wing chun, but I must admit I've found more power incorporating the few xing yi principles of power generation, or even tai chi.

Back to the lower spine tuck subject. In vertical power there must be some kind of ripple/wave or in the very least, some kind of expansion (ie stretching the spine) to generate enough motion for a significant force. A few years ago I would have thought that tucking the lower spine would cause some kind of 'block', an obstacle to the power coming up from your legs. Since doing Japanese koryu 'internals' and a little xing yi, I see it more as the lower spine being part of the base as opposed to the base being the legs/feet only. My koryu teacher explained it as being the keystone to the arch of your legs (however straight they may actually be) and therefore you can generate power at short range in any direction.


Y/Horiz 'power' is shown, well everywhere a little more obviously than the X axis, IMHO, but most punches and kicks of any 'style' evolve out of the Y axis of the hips torquing the spine and releasing through the shoulders.Dunno, we've already mentioned xing yi and wing chun which don't seem to do this. Given, of course, that many wing chunners seem to punch like small girls ( :rolleyes: ).

And while for example, the boxing jabs certainly starts off with exagerrated torque in the horizontal plane (or more like a corkscrew involving both planes I'd say) when you've got it off pat you can deliver it with minimum torque from basically a vertical platform which if you sit on acts in a similar way as tucking the base of the spine. I know the jab isn't a power punch by nature (though it can pack a wallop), but the uppercut and even the hook to a large extent also work the horizontal plane right?


'S' backs vs. concave vs. convex...doesn't it really come down to the transition between one to the other?See, that's interesting too. I think part of the reason that wing chun's punches do have sucha rep for being girly slaps is because people misunderstand the basic principle of sil lum tao, which is a dynamic base, rather thana static one: they don't practice enough with motiion (which partly comes down to the whole lack of usefull sparring thing: and by useful I mean that most chunners sparring concentrate almost exclusively on speed to the detirment of postion and power).

Plus, especially in some lines, I've heard that wing chun punching should be like as if your suspended by a line from the top of your head. Now I've heard this in tai chi too, but that's just an analogy to get you to pull your head up in the right way, whereas in those chun lines I've actually heard some nutters say that you're effectively swinging your whole body into the punch from the line attached to your head. This of course, defies physics, as there is no real line attached to your head.

I digress. Surely the chain ripple effect in vertical power should come from the interaction between the tucked and the untucked spine, and therefore the important quality is the transition, the flex.

[Oso]

xing yi principles of power generation, or even tai chi.

shouldn't vertical and horizontal power generation principles/theory be found in most styles?



Dunno, we've already mentioned xing yi and wing chun which don't seem to do this. Given, of course, that many wing chunners seem to punch like small girls ( ).

I said most...and I can't even begin to comment on WC, in xingyi i did, from the 5 element punching/arm movement, all axis of power generation from the hips/spine were there.



from the base of x and y power generation you then get in to the angles in between vert and horiz but still mostly the spine is generating basically x or y or both even and the attacking limbs have more to do w/ changes of angle...we can't forget the fact that it's not JUST so called spinal/coiling/silk reeling 'energy' that affects the power of a strike...the raw strength of the primary muscles groups driving extension of the limbs is included...but, imho, a better understanding of, and the ability to be relaxed and let the body flow are keys to succesfull delivery of all this 'powa!' ;)

and, CMA styles are not the keepers of the grail...i'm having a helluva time changing my hook punch to a western boxing style for the mma class i'm doing...just feels weird to me right now but I see what's going on, just having to retrain the body to move a little differently

out for now...

[David Jamieson]

lifting requires the posterior chain. this is the natural shape of the spine when in a squat.

when you are punching forward, you are not lifting up and the shape of the spine is different than when you lift. hence the tuck which affords sinking.

[Pork Chop]

...i'm having a helluva time changing my hook punch to a western boxing style for the mma class i'm doing...just feels weird to me right now but I see what's going on, just having to retrain the body to move a little differently


Seems almost every boxing gym I've been to throws their hooks a little different.
Some have huge weight transitions, some not at all.
Even pivoting on the front foot is sometimes an option, one coach preferred collapsing the knee and keeping the foot somewhat stationary- because they were dead set on keeping all the weight up front.

Personally, I try to pick up the new style & try it out. If it doesn't come out well or if I can't generate anywhere near the same power, I'll stick with what works.

[Oso]

yea, these guys have a heavy twist to the front foot, i'm not against it per se...just alien at this point...i generally don't move the feet to a large degree on punching, besides constant shifting to stay in punch range and working the waist/spine transmission from the rooted lower half...

getting ready to head in to that class shortly, so, I'm sure I'll get more practice :)