My BJJ Conundrum

[Ray Pina]

The only thing holding me back from my blue belt is my weakness in finishing from the back.... and I admit, it's my least favorite position... though I've been forcing myself there to improve.

Taking someone's back in BJJ is very powerful, which is why guys are screaming from the sidelines to take it and sink the hooks. But as much as I've been accused here of being a sport-head fighter, I'm first and foremost a martial artists. And on my back, with a guy sitting in my lap, with my hooks in or not, is not the place I want to find myself anywhere other than in the SAFETY of the cage or BJJ matt. I just don't think it is a wise position to place oneself, because it leaves one so vulnerable. And also because it is very committed. One you take it and sink the hooks, your ability to disengage and engage elsewhere, defend other fronts, is very compromised.

So I'm learning it. Because I want to be a great BJJ player some day, but it's just one of those things. Taking the ability, the gained experience and knowledge and applying out how and where you like.

When I train Hsing-I, Taiji is the most stupid style. When focusing on Taiji it takes care of the shooting wrestler so fine and MMA beats them all, because it's all inclusive. Or something like that or nothing like that. It is what it is but "Kung Fu" still sucks :p

[MasterKiller]

The only thing holding me back from my blue belt is my weakness in finishing from the back.... and I admit, it's my least favorite position... though I've been forcing myself there to improve.

Taking someone's back in BJJ is very powerful, which is why guys are screaming from the sidelines to take it and sink the hooks. But as much as I've been accused here of being a sport-head fighter, I'm first and foremost a martial artists. And on my back, with a guy sitting in my lap, with my hooks in or not, is not the place I want to find myself anywhere other than in the SAFETY of the cage or BJJ matt. I just don't think it is a wise position to place oneself, because it leaves one so vulnerable. And also because it is very committed. One you take it and sink the hooks, your ability to disengage and engage elsewhere, defend other fronts, is very compromised.

So I'm learning it. Because I want to be a great BJJ player some day, but it's just one of those things. Taking the ability, the gained experience and knowledge and applying out how and where you like.

When I train Hsing-I, Taiji is the most stupid style. When focusing on Taiji it takes care of the shooting wrestler so fine and MMA beats them all, because it's all inclusive. Or something like that or nothing like that. It is what it is but "Kung Fu" still sucks :p

I weigh 167 lb and am usually the smallest guy in the gym, so I learned to fight from my back out of necessity. Consequently, the triangle is my bread-and-butter, and I have a pretty good half-guard game as well.

[Ray Pina]

Oh, I love guard. And I think it's critical. My triangle is $hit, but I have a couple good arm bars and sweeps from there.

To me, the guard is different.... you've been knocked down, and the man remains aggressive. You keep your contact, and pull him in and secure him. Even on the street, it is not ideal, but you can use the man as a shield a bit... and I often break guard to get up and scramble anyway. It's just my way.

Taking the back is different though. I'd rather hang out and threaten the guillotine, drop my weight in a sprawl and pound the back of the head/neck, work the ribs and look for a foot to grab and roll him over. To me, that's remaining aggressive but retaining positional awareness and mobility. Jumping on someone's back and rolling them over, yea, I guess you could still shield with them, but to me I feel sluggish, not as quick to pop up and go and face someone else, run.

But that's the thing, right? Everyone finds their own flavor from within the framework of a sound system.

[Merryprankster]

Hey, I've got a brown belt and I still don't take the back very well. Everybody's got their fortes.

[MasterKiller]

I'm pretty good at taking the back in training, especially from the half-guard (thanks to some tips I got from Carmine Zocchi when I was at NY San Da). But you saw my last match. When I had the chance to take the guy's back and sink in the RNC, I went too fast, didn't secure the hooks, and slide off to the side and out of position.

Pretty much any ground fighting leaves you vulnerable in a real fight. But if push comes to shove and it hits the ground, I'd rather be on his back, with the hooks in, lifting his legs up with my heels like a rocking horse, than underneath him.

[冠木侍]

I weigh 167 lb and am usually the smallest guy in the gym, so I learned to fight from my back out of necessity. Consequently, the triangle is my bread-and-butter, and I have a pretty good half-guard game as well.

Arm triangle or with the legs?

I'm very comfortable on my back given my rudimentary experience with grappling.

[Water Dragon]

Look at it this way, Ray. It's a tool, just like anything else. Just cause you have the tool in your toolbox, doesn't mean you HAVE to pull it out.

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it, so take the back, sink the hooks, and choke the $hit outta 'em.

[jet64]

Hi Ray! Just wanna ask why you say taiji is the most stupid style? :)


well it depends on who's doing it :)

[bakxierboxer]

Look at it this way, Ray. It's a tool, just like anything else. Just cause you have the tool in your toolbox, doesn't mean you HAVE to pull it out.

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it, so take the back, sink the hooks, and choke the $hit outta 'em.

Or, you can do like TenTigers and carry around some of those "Relaxed Fit" conundrums. :D

[Mas Judt]

Look at it this way, Ray. It's a tool, just like anything else. Just cause you have the tool in your toolbox, doesn't mean you HAVE to pull it out.

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it, so take the back, sink the hooks, and choke the $hit outta 'em.

On the other hand, you will fight like you train, so why develop a habit that is ONLY good in the ring?

[Ray Pina]

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it, so take the back, sink the hooks, and choke the $hit outta 'em.

That is the position I have ultimately taken. Plus, I'm a kook. I have to learn as much as I can. My coach says jump and I go for the sky.

[Ray Pina]

Just wanna ask why you say taiji is the most stupid style?


Because of all but one teacher I've met have been kooks. They all tell you not to use power in push hands... yea, because when I use power I throw them around like the weak, baseless, martial artists that they are.

I know. I know.... you're not supposed to USE power in the training. You're not supposed to use power in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu either. For the same reasons.

The difference is, if you want to exhaust yourself squeezing like an animal to hold a bad position, or try to bench press me off when I have you pinned, please do! Waist your energy. My technique, leverage and position is what has you pinned.... not my "power." I have that too though, if I should or want to dig it in a bit.

Only STUPID Taiji would reprimand a martial artists, boxer, fighter, for using power.

I know that's not a true statement. Good technique is always effortless. And I know that's what Taiji means. But what is stupid Taiji going to do about it?

Get my point?

[Merryprankster]

Good technique is always effortless.

I wish that were true! Good technique, like the Judo saying, maximizes effectiveness while minimizing effort, certainly. But boy do I wish it were effortless!!! :-)

[Knifefighter]

I know that's not a true statement. Good technique is always effortless. And I know that's what Taiji means. But what is stupid Taiji going to do about it?Get my point?

Good technique is only effortless if your opponent's skill level is way below yours.

[jet64]

Ray,

I understand your point. Anyways, here's how you can test a real taichi. Ask for a sparring session, you attack as fast and as hard and try to hurt the taichi guy. If the taichi guy is for real, you wont be able to get a hard blow. Sometimes you can feel hitting the target but its soft touches only. Thats the way to test it, Push hands are BS I tell you.

:)

[Water Dragon]

On the other hand, you will fight like you train, so why develop a habit that is ONLY good in the ring?

A couple of reasons. First, you learn it so you can learn to defend it. Second, I don't think that technique is only good for the ring. It's a good position for smaller guys to fight bigger guys from, and it works very well strategically. I like using it to go from guard, around the back, to mount. Slao, even if I don't use the strategy, I might teach someone some day who will be very good with it. In that situation, I have to be at least good enough with it to demonstrate it.

I get what you're saying though, but I don't think it applies as much to the ground game as the stand up game. Things are slower on the ground, and there's a lot more cognizant (sp?) thinking going on as compared to stand up.

[Kansuke]

When focusing on Taiji it takes care of the shooting wrestler so fine



What does?

[TenTigers]

"BJJ Conundrum,"
I've seen those at the 7/11 . I think they come in flavors, too.
Like, "Kiss of Mint."

[Kansuke]

Are they ribbed for her pleasure?

[TenTigers]

well, ribbed might improve dental hygene,
sort of like gum massage or flossing, I suppose.
Perhaps like one of those tongue scrapers...

[Mas Judt]

A couple of reasons. First, you learn it so you can learn to defend it. Second, I don't think that technique is only good for the ring. It's a good position for smaller guys to fight bigger guys from, and it works very well strategically. I like using it to go from guard, around the back, to mount. Slao, even if I don't use the strategy, I might teach someone some day who will be very good with it. In that situation, I have to be at least good enough with it to demonstrate it.

I get what you're saying though, but I don't think it applies as much to the ground game as the stand up game. Things are slower on the ground, and there's a lot more cognizant (sp?) thinking going on as compared to stand up.


Yep. That part where his buddies are stomping you on the head or he is stabbing you repeatedly. Gives you lots of time to think :)

[Kansuke]

.............................. :rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

.............................. :rolleyes:




.................................................. ................:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[naja]

.................................................. ................:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

.................................................. ......................................:rolleyes::) :confused::eek::p

[Water Dragon]

Yep. That part where his buddies are stomping you on the head or he is stabbing you repeatedly. Gives you lots of time to think :)

Well, in that situation there's not much that is going to work for you, and not much you're gonna think besides, "Oh, $hit!"

[TenTigers]

it's a skill set. Something for your toolbox. Is it applicable in all situations? No. Nothing ever is. You pull it out when the opportunity presents itself. Obviously, in a mass attack, you will not be rolling with one person and instead utilize your standup skills to escape.

[Mas Judt]

Well, in that situation there's not much that is going to work for you, and not much you're gonna think besides, "Oh, $hit!"

Well, I'd disagree with that. My point is that sure, it's good to practice. But no, it's not a tool for actual combat and should not be confused as such. High kicks are in the same boat - great for sport - not always practical in the street.

You just need to be honest about what you are training for. Me, I like combat sports, and I do think live training is very, very important. But ultimately, it is a game. And like any games, the rules alter the purpose to 'winning the game.'

I can guarantee you that the average Cape Town thug, or ghetto kid in Manila will gut you like a trout if you confuse it with martial art.

I keep going back to an actor I worked with back in the 80's - he was a national wrestling champ. Very good, very confident. And he confused himself about what he was good at - and when he was attacked by an untrained, knife wielding opponent - he 'shot in', tried to take the back, and got stabbed 37 times and died.

Again, not to say live training is not valuable - but is not a fight, just a drill, and HOW you structure that drill can have a huge impact on wether you can do 'combat sport' or 'combat'. Or both.

I see MMA becoming more like Judo every day, where the hidden dangers aren't even understood enough to recognize they are there.

Which, going back to my earlier point - why focus so much energy on something with so little reward?

[Kansuke]

....................... :rolleyes: X100

[friday]

I don't understand why your're national wrestling champion friend thought it would be a good thing to do - i.e. to shoot in on a knife wielding guy and attempt to take his back???

Doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't the focus be on obtaining, and controlling the knife hand, attempt a throw, or using standing joint manipulation/breakage to control your opponent? otherwise create distance and run? are you saying your friend never had any self-defence training, or had anyone explain to him that the shoot was not a good idea vs a knife wielding attacker?

regardless, knowing how to grapple and fighting on the ground is a necessity. You may not want to take it to the ground but understanding how to fight in that position and being able to get back up is probably even more important for those fighters whose focus is on their stand up game.

[Oso]

#1 Ray...get over yourself and choke the **** out of the ****er, dude. :D

#2 on the debate about fighting like you train leading to bad street habits related to sport habit...

...is the consensus that it really is that difficult to switch mindsets?

I'm not so sure I'm convinced it is. Just take the idea of 'sportsmanship'...in the ring or on the mat you are going to do your best within a set of rules designed to keep people relatively safe.

'on the street' (can i get a 'oooohhhh'?) IF one keeps the correct mindet and, and this is really the bottom line to winning a 'real life encounter'...you have to be a mean b@stard with no compunctions about breaking the arm, leg, face or neck as need be.

I think the concept of the 'spiritual warrior' is a bunch o' crap...someone that is 'above' the violence but perseveres through perfection of 'technique'.

True fighters and warriors revel in the violence and if they train for sport have managed to contain the beast within enough to not get disqualified.

I just watched 'Redbelt' and without getting in to what I think are the flaws in that movie...

I did watch the 'extras' interview with Dana White and one thing I completely agreed with him about was the universal appeal to 'man' (gender specific) that fighting, violence and physical domination over another 'man' has and that very thing being paramount in the success of MMA in general and the UFC in particular.

What he did say they had not planned on was the success the UFC has had with women... DUH, it's coded way to deep for women to not get all hot and bothered by a big strong man beating the crap out of another man.

:p;):D

[Mr Punch]

....................... :rolleyes: X100OK, after Mas Judt's clear explanation of how he arrived at his viewpoint I think you'd better actually enter into the discussion with this one and clarify what your :rolleyes: x 100 is supposed to mean.


I don't understand why your're national wrestling champion friend thought it would be a good thing to do - i.e. to shoot in on a knife wielding guy and attempt to take his back???... etcMJ's a big boy: he can explain himself, but I think that that was exactly his point. People who train only one way and don't get reminders that that way may not be effective in da street when it is a higher percentage tech in the ring will quite probably get into trouble in da street.


regardless, knowing how to grapple and fighting on the ground is a necessity. You may not want to take it to the ground but understanding how to fight in that position and being able to get back up is probably even more important for those fighters whose focus is on their stand up game.Yeah. But it also depends: if you are focusing on SD, how much time do you feel you need to invest in the ground game? Everyone will vary due to time constraints, real street experience, aptitude and speed of learning in stand-up and ground etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The difference between sport and street is intent and mindset, nothing else.

[Kansuke]

Well, I'd disagree with that. My point is that sure, it's good to practice. But no, it's not a tool for actual combat and should not be confused as such.


That is a ridiculously categorical statement. Every situation is going to be different and it is the situation ("actual combat" :rolleyes: ), not a set of 'rules' some tool on the internet proclaims, that determines the best course of action in a given situation. If a given situation requires grappling skills and you don't have them, or don't have them to a sufficient degree, because some yahoo's 'philosophy' told you not to consider them important, it will still be your ass on the line.

The 'story' about the fella who was stabbed to death pretty thin, I must say.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is a ridiculously categorical statement. Every situation is going to be different and it is the situation ("actual combat" :rolleyes: ), not a set of 'rules' some tool on the internet proclaims, that determines the best course of action in a given situation. If a given situation requires grappling skills and you don't have them, or don't have them to a sufficient degree, because some yahoo's 'philosophy' told you not to consider them important, it will still be your ass on the line.

The 'story' about the fella who was stabbed to death pretty thin, I must say.

I don't know anything about THAT story, but I do know a "friend" of mine that came out of jail with some nice scars on his back and sides from trying to grapple a huy that was intent on shanking him.
Now, his stand up sucked ass too so I don't think it would have made any difference, but a shank is a "infighting" weapon, one that does the damage because the attacker is close enough to do hit with it.
His view was correct, though, he thought to establish control of the weapon arm and take it from there, the problem was lack of skill and training VS weapons.
Something that is very common in those that never train VS weapons.

Revolutionary eh?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The difference between sport and street is intent and mindset, nothing else.

Reply]
I totally disagree. There is a LARGE number of things in a sport enviroment, that are trained to become automatic impulses. These things will get you killed in a real, violent encounter. For example, the over powering tenancy for MMA people to try and intentionally go to the ground. It is SO INGRAINED, that when they are under pressure, they will do what they are comfortable, and know well. Since that is going to the ground, the attacker will pull a knife and slice him up while he's trying to mount.

With such a high number of people who carry a folder, the entire MMA premise is seriously flawed when applied to anything but a nice safe padded ring with refs.

As for learning the ground work in case you find yourself there, my idea of that is to practice drawing, and viciously stabbing my opponent with my folder, something I seem to be rather good at. I am even better at feeling for my opponents folder, drawing THIER knife, and stabbing them with that. Either way, the techniques are vastly different than what you would find in an MMA environment.

[Oso]

the over powering tenancy for MMA people to try and intentionally go to the ground. It is SO INGRAINED

RD, you're classifying all 'mma' people as grapplers and that's not true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
I totally disagree. There is a LARGE number of things in a sport enviroment, that are trained to become automatic impulses. These things will get you killed in a real, violent encounter. For example, the over powering tenancy for MMA people to try and intentionally go to the ground. It is SO INGRAINED, that when they are under pressure, they will do what they are comfortable, and know well. Since that is going to the ground, the attacker will pull a knife and slice him up while he's trying to mount.

With such a high number of people who carry a folder, the entire MMA premise is seriously flawed when applied to anything but a nice safe padded ring with refs.

As for learning the ground work in case you find yourself there, my idea of that is to practice drawing, and viciously stabbing my opponent with my folder, something I seem to be rather good at. I am even better at feeling for my opponents folder, drawing THIER knife, and stabbing them with that. Either way, the techniques are vastly different than what you would find in an MMA environment.

As someone that has done BOTH at a certain level higher than "novice" I can say that NEVER have any "bad habits" from sport entered into the realm of "the real world".
Not on my shift.
By the way, I carried a folder before it was fashinable, currently carry an Emerson CQB7 and before that a Spyderco.

[Drake]

Sometimes Army combatives, which is similar to BJJ, is set up where one opponent has a taser set to low power, to simulate the situation you just mentioned. It's an eye-opener.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sometimes Army combatives, which is similar to BJJ, is set up where one opponent has a taser set to low power, to simulate the situation you just mentioned. It's an eye-opener.

I've done some "street MMA" with buddies in which training folders are used ( we wear street clothes) and it doesn't take much to learn how to modify the "sport" into the "street".
The difference is awareness, whcih by the way is the hardest thing to teach REGARDLESS if you are sport or RBSD.

[SimonM]

Ah yes, the deadly 5tr33t where everybody is armed with concealed sharps and where the ground is littered with jagged stones, broken lightbulbs and empty syringes infected with Ebola crossbred with AIDS....

Certainly a grappler who tries to shoot on a knifer is likely to get stabbed but some of RD's statements border rediculous.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah yes, the deadly 5tr33t where everybody is armed with concealed sharps and where the ground is littered with jagged stones, broken lightbulbs and empty syringes infected with Ebola crossbred with AIDS....

Certainly a grappler who tries to shoot on a knifer is likely to get stabbed but some of RD's statements border rediculous.

I can tell you this, unless the knife guy has access to his knife, it isn't that easy to pull it out and used against someone that is concious that you may have it and believe me, the vast majority are consious of it.
That said, you do need to modify your grappling when a knife is present, just as you need to modify your striking.

[Oso]

That said, you do need to modify your grappling when a knife is present, just as you need to modify your striking.

preferably with something like this:

best mod vs. knife (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=45932&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15711&isFirearm=Y)

[Drake]

We were told to carry a knife while patrolling for this exact reason, actually.

[Drake]

And yes, we do carry M4s, but they are useless, borderline self-injuring in room clearing ops.

[Oso]

Ft. Huachuca? A buddy of mine did his AIT there back in the 80's...hadn't seen or heard of that place in a while.

[Reverend Tap]

preferably with something like this:

best mod vs. knife (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=45932&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15711&isFirearm=Y)

Assuming you've got sufficient distance, anyhow.

[Drake]

Ft. Huachuca? A buddy of mine did his AIT there back in the 80's...hadn't seen or heard of that place in a while.


This is my third time here. Not much going on here.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

preferably with something like this:

best mod vs. knife (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=45932&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15711&isFirearm=Y)

Reply]
A gun is almost useless in distances under 18-20 feet. A knife fighter can close the gap and jamb you while he draws and slices you ear to ear, before you can draw, aim and shoot.

You may get the draw, but not aim anywhere useful.

[Reverend Tap]

Reply]
A gun is almost useless in distances under 18-20 feet. A knife fighter can close the gap and jamb you while he draws and slices you ear to ear, before you can draw, aim and shoot.

You may get the draw, but not aim anywhere useful.

Indeed. The police around here (don't know if this is true elsewhere) are authorized to shoot knife-wielding suspects at anything within 25 feet as an act of self-defense, for precisely that reason.

Most people place far too much faith in firearms to automatically win a situation.

[Oso]

yea, but you're assuming I place too much faith in firearms...it's a tool like any other and why the f(ck would i prefer to take on someone hand to hand if they have a knife? tactical awareness is key to any self defense situation ...learning to use a hand gun for self defense is a strategy that gives you more options once it gets tactical

and, ok...so, i get the draw, it's pointed at him assuming i know how to draw and he's cutting me while my finger is on the trigger...

oh, yea, RD if you take time to 'aim' you're wasting time...i think it's called 'instinctive shooting' or 'point shooting' (my training has been informal but from professionals and I DO NOT claim to be an expert...but, I am one paranoid dude that never lets anyone get close to him that he doesn't know) and if I'm not mistaken it's a distinct method of training for close quarters shooting...most draws keep the arm close to the body and the gun not very far forward of the belly...if the b@stard is that close you just start pulling the trigger as you bring the weapon up to level as you look where you want the bullet to hit...yes, it requires training and practive but so does anything you think you might like to do with your hands to stop that knife:rolleyes:


Drake: you must be military then. He was...what was it 'aerial sensor specialist' or something like that...I think he flew in a 'Mohawk' turbo prop plane...it's probably absolete now...

[Kansuke]

As for learning the ground work in case you find yourself there, my idea of that is to practice drawing, and viciously stabbing my opponent with my folder, something I seem to be rather good at. I am even better at feeling for my opponents folder, drawing THIER knife, and stabbing them with that.



Ok, how many people have you "viciously stabbed" for real, not in a training simulation?


This "you'll be stabbed!!!" stuff makes about as much sense as the "his friends will jump in!!!" stuff. As if these things could never happen when people are NOT grappling on the ground.

I don't know who would shoot directly into a knife if they saw it right there in the other guy's hands. Someone might shoot only to find out too late the guy had a knife, but that could happen in a standing clinch, or when you just happen to be walking past someone with ill intent. In other words, if you know someone has a knife you are going to try to avoid that (shocking), but if you don't know they have it there is a good chance they will stab you if they really intend to whether you are standing or on the ground.

THE SITUATION DETERMINES THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION IN ANY PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

[Reverend Tap]

yea, but you're assuming I place too much faith in firearms...it's a tool like any other and why the f(ck would i prefer to take on someone hand to hand if they have a knife? tactical awareness is key to any self defense situation ...learning to use a hand gun for self defense is a strategy that gives you more options once it gets tactical

Nah, just making a general statement about most people. I figure there's a rather higher percentage of people around here who actually know what they're talking about in that regard.

[Drake]

We've been shown ad nauseum how ineffective firearms are at close range. We too go through "reflexive shooting", but when in tight quarters, you simply don't stand a chance against someone with a knife or even barehanded. I recall a particular episode where we had a guy come through a door and he had his own weapon turned on him before he even knew what was going on. This stuff happens for real, in much nastier places. Instinctive shooting doesn't help, really. If anything, it gives you a false confidence.

[friday]

Kansuke - i agree with you.

If you want to be able to defend yourself well against knife wielding attackers, then train for that context. Assuming fighters of equal skills, the fighter who is versed in both stand up and have a ground game who trains in this context is more likely to do better than someone who only has stand up skills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If I recall from the very excellent DVD "Die less often" by the Dog Brothers and Gabe Suarez, the survival rate is higher for gun shots than for knife wounds.

Of course someone with a gun that knows how to fight with a gun and not just shoot has a far better chance regardless of distance, in the end a firearm is the "ultimate weapon" in the hands of someone that can fight with it.

[Drake]

If I recall from the very excellent DVD "Die less often" by the Dog Brothers and Gabe Suarez, the survival rate is higher for gun shots than for knife wounds.

Of course someone with a gun that knows how to fight with a gun and not just shoot has a far better chance regardless of distance, in the end a firearm is the "ultimate weapon" in the hands of someone that can fight with it.


Firearms have an important place in weaponry, but at short ranges, you'd be better off with a spatula. Listen, I liked Equilibrium as much as the next guy, but it is very very dangerous to yourself to have a firearm as a weapon at close range. Easy to dodge, easy to take control. I've trained on this stuff until I couldn't stand it anymore. Gun loses every time.

Now, if you have some space between you and the opponent, the gun wins hands down, granted the person can shoot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Firearms have an important place in weaponry, but at short ranges, you'd be better off with a spatula. Listen, I liked Equilibrium as much as the next guy, but it is very very dangerous to yourself to have a firearm as a weapon at close range. Easy to dodge, easy to take control. I've trained on this stuff until I couldn't stand it anymore. Gun loses every time.

Now, if you have some space between you and the opponent, the gun wins hands down, granted the person can shoot.

Hence the ability to fight with a gun.
I know a few people that, even in zero range, will take almost anyone out with their gun, in one way or another.
The issue with most people and guns is that they see a gun as a replacement for fighting not a TOOL FOR FIGHTING.

[Oso]

what sanjuro said...twice...and I said once.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what sanjuro said...twice...and I said once.

While still in the military, a buddy of mine and I were working on gun fighting and such, he hit me, buy accident, across the back of the head with the gun and buy did I see stars on that one !
We then started fooling around with using the gun as a "impact weapon" as close range, worked very will and still allowed for shooting off of thrusts:
Uppercut to the chest or throat with the barrel, hold and shoot.
Butt to the eyebrow in a whipping motion was a good one.
Barrel to the eye and shoot was an other attitude adjuster.
Many things can be done...

[Drake]

The butt-stroke has been proven useless downrange.

[Old Noob]

The butt-stroke has been proven useless downrange.

M4 doesn't have a good, solid butt to stroke with. It's not as good a club as the old M16 was.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The butt-stroke has been proven useless downrange.

:D
perv !
LOL !

[Drake]

:D
perv !
LOL !

Useful in other locations. :eek:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, how many people have you "viciously stabbed" for real, not in a training simulation?


This "you'll be stabbed!!!" stuff makes about as much sense as the "his friends will jump in!!!" stuff. As if these things could never happen when people are NOT grappling on the ground.

I don't know who would shoot directly into a knife if they saw it right there in the other guy's hands. Someone might shoot only to find out too late the guy had a knife, but that could happen in a standing clinch, or when you just happen to be walking past someone with ill intent. In other words, if you know someone has a knife you are going to try to avoid that (shocking), but if you don't know they have it there is a good chance they will stab you if they really intend to whether you are standing or on the ground.

THE SITUATION DETERMINES THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION IN ANY PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

Reply]
You are thinking in too compartmentalized of a fashion. The answer that alludes you is that you should just assume the attacker has a knife, and is going to deploy it. Plan your self defense around this premiss.

Remember, knife defenses work whether or not the attacker has a knife. You use the same positional tactics, same defenses, same ways to lock, jamb and throw the opponent. The reverse is not true. MANY *Common* emptyhand skills are suicide in a fight with a knife wielder. This is especially so if the knife is concealed untill the last second.

As for the training comment, when we train, we use dulled practice knives. Some are real knives with the edges ground off for safety. This allows us to see just how well we can get the blade to target. I don't need to butcher someone to see how easy it is to carve up the un trained.

To add to that, even the dulled training knives are not 100% safe. I recently got stabbed and required 2 stitches in my arm from a relatively minor mishap. This occurred despite using a dulled for practice training knife. The mishap is a great example of why learning knife work is important. had I been in that situation prior to learning, I would have reacted like an emptyhand fighter, and instead of taking the cut on the boney side of my forearm, it could very well have slit my wrist.

When you train in a blade aware enviroment, you start to see all these little details that make the difference between life and death...details that empty hand fighters, especially BJJ trained exponents violate as a matter of course.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hence the ability to fight with a gun.
I know a few people that, even in zero range, will take almost anyone out with their gun, in one way or another.
The issue with most people and guns is that they see a gun as a replacement for fighting not a TOOL FOR FIGHTING.

Reply]
Excellent post!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
You are thinking in too compartmentalized of a fashion. The answer that alludes you is that you should just assume the attacker has a knife, and is going to deploy it. Plan your self defense around this premiss.

Remember, knife defenses work whether or not the attacker has a knife. You use the same positional tactics, same defenses, same ways to lock, jamb and throw the opponent. The reverse is not true. MANY *Common* emptyhand skills are suicide in a fight with a knife wielder. This is especially so if the knife is concealed untill the last second.

As for the training comment, when we train, we use dulled practice knives. Some are real knives with the edges ground off for safety. This allows us to see just how well we can get the blade to target. I don't need to butcher someone to see how easy it is to carve up the un trained.

To add to that, even the dulled training knives are not 100% safe. I recently got stabbed and required 2 stitches in my arm from a relatively minor mishap. This occurred despite using a dulled for practice training knife. The mishap is a great example of why learning knife work is important. had I been in that situation prior to learning, I would have reacted like an emptyhand fighter, and instead of taking the cut on the boney side of my forearm, it could very well have slit my wrist.

When you train in a blade aware enviroment, you start to see all these little details that make the difference between life and death...details that empty hand fighters, especially BJJ trained exponents violate as a matter of course.

One of the easiest ways to translate empty hands into weapons is to view every strike you get hit with as being "stabbed", then you analyse how m any times you "take a shot to get a shot in" and how many times you "take a shot to get in" and so forth, then you analize the amount of blood you spilled...
Adjust accordingly.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Take that concept up one notch and add a marker in the opponents hands. It will change your idea of what superior positioning actually is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Take that concept up one notch and add a marker in the opponents hands. It will change your idea of what superior positioning actually is.

Yeah, the marker is quite an eye opener to some.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One of the easiest ways to translate empty hands into weapons is to view every strike you get hit with as being "stabbed", then you analyse

Reply]
Reverse your thinking, instead of translating your emptyhand skills to weapons, take your weapons skills, and translate THEM into your empty hand.

Once you can do this, what you will have is authentic Chinese Kung Fu. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the easiest ways to translate empty hands into weapons is to view every strike you get hit with as being "stabbed", then you analyse

Reply]
Reverse your thinking, instead of translating your emptyhand skills to weapons, take your weapons skills, and translate THEM into your empty hand.

Once you can do this, what you will have is authentic Chinese Kung Fu. :)

If you are suggesting going from armed to unarmed, I don't favour that approuch, too many holes.
What works armed may not work unarmed, but what works unarmed usually works armed.
Especially when trying to translate knife work into empty hands, not good.
Stick is better, but still has its weaknesses.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you are suggesting going from armed to unarmed, I don't favour that approuch, too many holes.
What works armed may not work unarmed, but what works unarmed usually works armed.
Especially when trying to translate knife work into empty hands, not good.
Stick is better, but still has its weaknesses.

Reply]
I disagree completely. The techniques that you use a weapon with can almost allways be shortened up to work without a weapon. You just need to adjust the spacing and distance.

However, MOST emptyhand techniques leave you fundamentally exposed to deadly knife techniques. Even the way an empty hand fighter steps routinely and blatantly exposes the femoral artery to a knife slash. Same for the major veins in the arms.

If you are going emptyhand, to emptyhand, these errors don't matter. If one has a knife though, these seemingless inconsequential details make the difference between life and death.

Now if you are reversing that, in a knife fight, keeping your bleeders protected does not take away from an empty hand fight at all. If anything it makes you better covered and harder to hit, kick and shoot in on. Stabbs, and slashes just become hits and strikes. You use the exact same movement, only you hit instead of slice. The only difference is you have to be more selective about your targets.

Based on my historical research, Chinese martial arts are NOT empty hands first, with the weapon as an extension of the empty hand, they are WEAPONS skills first, shortened up to work empty handed if you lost your weapon. That way you do not need to learn 2 separate groups of techniques. Modern Kung Fu is taught backwards! You should START with the weapons, and learn the empty hand later.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
I disagree completely. The techniques that you use a weapon with can almost allways be shortened up to work without a weapon. You just need to adjust the spacing and distance.

However, MOST emptyhand techniques leave you fundamentally exposed to deadly knife techniques. Even the way an empty hand fighter steps routinely and blatantly exposes the femoral artery to a knife slash. Same for the major veins in the arms.

If you are going emptyhand, to emptyhand, these errors don't matter. If one has a knife though, these seemingless inconsequential details make the difference between life and death.

Now if you are reversing that, in a knife fight, keeping your bleeders protected does not take away from an empty hand fight at all. If anything it makes you better covered and harder to hit, kick and shoot in on. Stabbs, and slashes just become hits and strikes. You use the exact same movement, only you hit instead of slice. The only difference is you have to be more selective about your targets.

Based on my historical research, Chinese martial arts are NOT empty hands first, with the weapon as an extension of the empty hand, they are WEAPONS skills first, shortened up to work empty handed if you lost your weapon. That way you do not need to learn 2 separate groups of techniques. Modern Kung Fu is taught backwards! You should START with the weapons, and learn the empty hand later.

In regards to defence, you are correct, in regards to attack, nope.
While a slash and a "jab" with a knife can be quite traumatic, with a fist or open hand, they will do very little if anything at all.
With a knife you tend to let the weapon do the work for you, that won't work with empty hands.
Now, Impact weapons, that is another thing.
Your body is an impact weapon, it si NOT a cutting, slashing and thrusting weapon.
You defate people with empty hands by percussive strikes ( or submissions), you don't defeat them by "slashes and stabs".
The reason many FMA look so "flicky" with their empty hand work is because they are translating it from knife work, there is not enough power in their strikes.
Now, doing empty hand work, with the power base from impact weapons BUT with the defense and postioning of edged weapons, THAT is the way to go.

In other words, your power generation is off when you go from edge to empty hands.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In the Kuntao, the power generation is the same either way. It's all internal power.

If you think about it, sure a slash with an empty hand will not have the damage causing effect if it had been with a knife, but if you simply change the target to the side of the head, now it's just as much of a knock out shot as anything else.

[EDIT]
I just reread your last post. I think you are still thinking too compartmentalized. The Chinese martial arts, emptyhand and weapon work are integrated in one system. positioning, power generation, edged and blunt weapons are all done the same way, and each work whether or not the weapon in in play or not. The only difference is in the distance and the need for better target selection wihtout the blade.

also, Kung fu seeks to take the root and trip, or throw the opponent, so by useing the same tactics to accomplish that as when using a weapon, you can still take some one down and out even if the weapon is not there to slice them up prior to the take down.

This would be one explanation for the lack of ground fighting in Chinese arts. if you found yourself down, you were probably already gutted and dying, not facing someone looking to get all gay with you.

[WinterPalm]

BJJ is great in that you spend ample time training off of your back. Not really any other style that trains like this.
Like many other arts, if we put a knife in the guy's hand we are at a disadvantage but if we are on our backs and have no idea what to do...we are dead.

I never really bought into the whole one style is better than another...just preferences and ideas you gravitate towards...people that rag on any style and say their's is better is what irks me.

BTW, I wouldn't train with real knives like you guys are talking about...that's just crazy and someone is going to get hurt eventually.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the Kuntao, the power generation is the same either way. It's all internal power.

If you think about it, sure a slash with an empty hand will not have the damage causing effect if it had been with a knife, but if you simply change the target to the side of the head, now it's just as much of a knock out shot as anything else.

[EDIT]
I just reread your last post. I think you are still thinking too compartmentalized. The Chinese martial arts, emptyhand and weapon work are integrated in one system. positioning, power generation, edged and blunt weapons are all done the same way, and each work whether or not the weapon in in play or not. The only difference is in the distance and the need for better target selection wihtout the blade.

also, Kung fu seeks to take the root and trip, or throw the opponent, so by useing the same tactics to accomplish that as when using a weapon, you can still take some one down and out even if the weapon is not there to slice them up prior to the take down.

This would be one explanation for the lack of ground fighting in Chinese arts. if you found yourself down, you were probably already gutted and dying, not facing someone looking to get all gay with you.

In practice that doesn't work.

[Kansuke]

The answer that alludes you is .



The answer "alludes" me? Wtf?





And why do you keep typing "reply]" before your reply? Is there something wrong with your keyboard?

[Kansuke]

you should just assume the attacker has a knife, and is going to deploy it.



That tends to match my approach anyway, but how often is that really the case?

[Kansuke]

As for the training comment, when we train, we use dulled practice knives. Some are real knives with the edges ground off for safety. This allows us to see just how well we can get the blade to target. I don't need to butcher someone to see how easy it is to carve up the un trained.



Great, but that doesn't answer my question. Could you please answer my question?

[Kansuke]

I think you are still thinking too compartmentalized.



Is that your catchphrase or something? You've repeated that 4 or 5 times now.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In practice that doesn't work.

Reply]
Yet we do it with an extremely high degree of success every session.

[Lucas]

his real catchphrase is:

"GET TO DA CHOPPA !"

[Kansuke]

his real catchphrase is:

"GET TO DA CHOPPA !"




Good advice. She was the only one who actually got to da choppa.

[Lucas]

Good advice. She was the only one who actually got to da choppa.

lol, yep. well except for the ol predator slayer himself.

[Kansuke]

lol, yep. well except for the ol predator slayer himself.



I think he missed da choppa messing around with aliens and whatnot so he had to stay behind for a few weeks. He met a local woman and sired Alyssa Milano.

[Lucas]

I think he missed da choppa messing around with aliens and whatnot so he had to stay behind for a few weeks. He met a local woman and sired Alyssa Milano.

time well spent for the betterment of mankind as a whole!

[Lucas]

oh wait, im sorry i derailed the thread.

CARRY ON!

[Kansuke]

time well spent for the betterment of mankind as a whole!


Just doing what a Commando had to do.

[Knifefighter]

1- As usual, RD is completely clueless and talking out of his ass.
2- Unless you have unlimited time and space, have a weapon of your own, or can run away, a knife attack will often lead to grappling on the ground while someone is being stabbed or one person ending up on the ground and being stabbed.
3- If you want to survive a knife attack, learn what to do in terms of groundfighting/grappling against someone with a blade.
4- It takes a lot to kill someone with a blade.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x1v8VtD7d0c

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rDa1BCJPHvg

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually, killing someone with a knife is really easy. That is why they are so dangerous.

[Kansuke]

Actually, killing someone with a knife is really easy.



Ok, how many times have you done it?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why do I need to have done it to know how easy it would be?

If I take my Razor sharp, hair shaving Kabar and slice your Jugular clean through, you are going to bleed to death very quickly.

If you don't believe me, you are more than welcome to come here and let my slash through the side of your neck. If you live, I will buy you dinner and apologize for being wrong.

What do you say? Deal?

[Mr Punch]

The answer that alludes you is that you should just assume the attacker has a knife, and is going to deploy it. Plan your self defense around this premiss.

I hear this a lot. While it makes a large degree of sense in terms of abandoning some practices that would be dangerous/fatal against a knife, it's a generalization that needs qualification like many others.

If someone who doesn't have a knife is fighting me, I don't mind taking a couple of shots, which obviously I intend to ride, angle off etc, in order to get in and get the job done. It won't kill me. I'm not dangerosuly overconfident about this but it's a trade off: my aggression and ability to take a good hard shot (tested in FC) and his aggression. With a knife I couldn't do this of course: I have to be more cautious. That caution in an unarmed fight might take half the sting out of my aggression and lead to a beat down.


I disagree completely. The techniques that you use a weapon with can almost allways be shortened up to work without a weapon. You just need to adjust the spacing and distance.'Just'? 'Just'?

Factors involved in fighting in no particular order:

strength
training
endurance (often)
reach/size/('spacing'/distance)
timing
speed

So, assuming your statement is right in the first place you 'just' have to adjust a sixth of your game completely. Add to that that with a knife you don't need the strength to cut someone (I mean, sure, as KF implies, to really fillet someone takes strength and determination but you can get killed easily from a half-hearted, even semi-accidental cut with little power behind it), so that's another sixth you 'just' have to adjust. The timing will be different, so that's another sixth. Plus if you don't train specifically and realistically for knives, that makes the sixth of 'training' you 'just' have to adjust.

Which makes four sixths of your training you 'just' have to adjust.
It's like saying I could beat Fedor in the ring if I could j u s t adjust my timing, strength, technique and distancing... :D

[Reverend Tap]

The relative ease or difficulty of killing someone with a knife would depend in great part on the method one used. Most videos I've seen and incidents I've known of have been people just using straight stabs in their attack. Now, I'm not going to analyze combat efficacy here; the thing about stabbing is, it creates a simple puncture wound. Generally speaking, a puncture wound inflicted with a knife will not cause the rapid blood loss that a longer, shallower slash wound inflicted by the same knife will; that puncture wound will also be much easier to staunch with pressure and will generally clot much more quickly (though that last part isn't as related to surviving the actual altercation as it is surviving the period immediately thereafter). This is all just simple biology.

Now, taking it as a given that a long, slashing cut is going to be more dangerous than a simple stab, the combination of the blade's ability to draw a long cut with even a rather inaccurate motion and most people's relatively poor coverage of major blood vessels would indicate that it's really not as difficult to cause massive blood loss (and thus death) as you're indicating.

[Oso]

ok, raise your hands: how many people have actually been attacked by a person with a knife and/or taken one away from someone who was at least seemingly getting ready to use it?

[Drake]

ok, raise your hands: how many people have actually been attacked by a person with a knife and/or taken one away from someone who was at least seemingly getting ready to use it?

*raises hand*

Knives are scary.

[Oso]

guess everyone else got tucked in for the night ;)


yea, knives are scary

[Kansuke]

Why do I need to have done it to know how easy it would be?

If I take my Razor sharp, hair shaving Kabar and slice your Jugular clean through, you are going to bleed to death very quickly.

If you don't believe me, you are more than welcome to come here and let my slash through the side of your neck. If you live, I will buy you dinner and apologize for being wrong.

What do you say? Deal?



Could you answer my question please? Is it so hard?

[Kansuke]

ok, raise your hands: how many people have actually been attacked by a person with a knife and/or taken one away from someone who was at least seemingly getting ready to use it?



*raises hand*

[IronWeasel]

ok, raise your hands: how many people have actually been attacked by a person with a knife and/or taken one away from someone who was at least seemingly getting ready to use it?



Just the one time.

It was a fish scaler...and he missed on three slashes, then ran away.

Lucky me...

[WinterPalm]

ok, raise your hands: how many people have actually been attacked by a person with a knife and/or taken one away from someone who was at least seemingly getting ready to use it?

In an alley, very, very drunk.
I took a steel bar to the wrist and the knee while buddy took a knife to the back and through the lung...just missed his heart.

Not quite what you were looking for...

As far as I'm concerned, some training, some drills, but it all comes down to the moment it happens...real fights can't be replicated.

[Mr Punch]

Not sure of the relevance (unless it's to you having started on the beer for the night!? :D ) but I was attacked by a person with a knife, though he didn't attack me with the knife!

Geezer pushed me from the side into a doorway, I braced myself spun him round and chinned him, backed off and shouted and he looked dazed (crack I suspect) and pulled a Stanley. I backed off and walked into the shop he'd just tried to turn over to call the good constables.

Been attacked with a bottle (glancing blow, all that bull**** of Hollywood bottles breaking over Hollywood heads just that - but leaves an egg and a half), a chain and a car. Had my face cut up by rings on the end of a punch, had my teeth broken and cracked with paras. Closest I ever came to real nastiness was somebody getting glassed in front of me and my friend and I pulling them apart.

No relevance to the thread except repeating that in the case of weapons RD's 'just adjust your spacing' is utter simplistic bollocks.

[Oso]

ok, so no one here really has enough experience (irrelevent to how much training one has done irregardless of whether that training is deemed valid) to really know???

my three experiences were all as a bouncer...in all instances I became aware of the knife before anyone swung at me with it and basically 'snuck' each of them hoping to get control of the weapon arm before it became a mad slashing fest. I was successful all 3 times...one time humorously so...

[CFT]

Actually, killing someone with a knife is really easy. That is why they are so dangerous.I am sure KF means it is difficult to kill someone who already has a blade and is ready to use it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok, raise your hands: how many people have actually been attacked by a person with a knife and/or taken one away from someone who was at least seemingly getting ready to use it?

3 x with a knife
1 with a machete.

Its how I roll.
:D

[SoCo KungFu]

The relative ease or difficulty of killing someone with a knife would depend in great part on the method one used. Most videos I've seen and incidents I've known of have been people just using straight stabs in their attack. Now, I'm not going to analyze combat efficacy here; the thing about stabbing is, it creates a simple puncture wound. Generally speaking, a puncture wound inflicted with a knife will not cause the rapid blood loss that a longer, shallower slash wound inflicted by the same knife will; that puncture wound will also be much easier to staunch with pressure and will generally clot much more quickly (though that last part isn't as related to surviving the actual altercation as it is surviving the period immediately thereafter). This is all just simple biology.

Now, taking it as a given that a long, slashing cut is going to be more dangerous than a simple stab, the combination of the blade's ability to draw a long cut with even a rather inaccurate motion and most people's relatively poor coverage of major blood vessels would indicate that it's really not as difficult to cause massive blood loss (and thus death) as you're indicating.

Ummm...you are aware that we aren't just big walking bags of flesh right? You know there actually is stuff all up underneath that skin and muscle and bones....

I'll take a slash over a punctured/collapsed lung, cardiac tamponade, a nicked aorta, etc. etc. etc. anyday. Cuz you know...chest tubes are just SO much fun!!! Oh and lets not forget the joy that is sepsis, when all that bile and gooyie goodness work its way all around in there like a 4 year old finger painting. Good Times!

[MasterKiller]

3 x with a knife
1 with a machete.

Its how I roll.
:D

How many of those were womenz?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How many of those were womenz?

Well.....:o

[Reverend Tap]

Ummm...you are aware that we aren't just big walking bags of flesh right? You know there actually is stuff all up underneath that skin and muscle and bones....

I'll take a slash over a punctured/collapsed lung, cardiac tamponade, a nicked aorta, etc. etc. etc. anyday. Cuz you know...chest tubes are just SO much fun!!! Oh and lets not forget the joy that is sepsis, when all that bile and gooyie goodness work its way all around in there like a 4 year old finger painting. Good Times!

That would be why I said, "generally speaking." In any case, unless you're talking about a really shallow or stupidly-placed slash, there's not exactly a terrible chance of hitting some of that internal goodness either way; indeed, a sufficiently deep slash (say, to the gut or lower back) is more likely to cause problems because it covers a wider area and is hitting more structures all at once.

And anyway, look to the video posted by, I think it was, Knifefighter; the one showing a man stabbing the victim he's sitting on something like 30 times. If that man was going for a kill, which I think it's pretty reasonable to assume he was, a single slash across the throat would easily have accomplished what a couple dozen stabs to the face/neck/chest area failed to do. Using a blade to go for a kill in the moment means, above all else, aiming for rapid massive blood loss, which a slashing attack toward effective targets is simply more likely to provide.

[Golden Arms]

That would be why I said, "generally speaking." In any case, unless you're talking about a really shallow or stupidly-placed slash, there's not exactly a terrible chance of hitting some of that internal goodness either way; indeed, a sufficiently deep slash (say, to the gut or lower back) is more likely to cause problems because it covers a wider area and is hitting more structures all at once.

And anyway, look to the video posted by, I think it was, Knifefighter; the one showing a man stabbing the victim he's sitting on something like 30 times. If that man was going for a kill, which I think it's pretty reasonable to assume he was, a single slash across the throat would easily have accomplished what a couple dozen stabs to the face/neck/chest area failed to do. Using a blade to go for a kill in the moment means, above all else, aiming for rapid massive blood loss, which a slashing attack toward effective targets is simply more likely to provide.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that "it depends". I can speak from experience as well, since I have been attacked with and slashed pretty deep by a knife. From what I have heard, the neck can be tough on some people to get deep enough to drop a person right off the bat, due to the toughness of some of the tissues on some individuals. The throat itself is generally not as tough though. This is backed up as well by my dad, from his surgery days in Vietnam. It can be pretty tough to put down a human being with anything that does not physically destroy structure. At other times they can just fall wrong and die. Its not exactly black and white.

[Reverend Tap]

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that "it depends". I can speak from experience as well, since I have been attacked with and slashed pretty deep by a knife. From what I have heard, the neck can be tough on some people to get deep enough to drop a person right off the bat, due to the toughness of some of the tissues on some individuals. The throat itself is generally not as tough though. This is backed up as well by my dad, from his surgery days in Vietnam. It can be pretty tough to put down a human being with anything that does not physically destroy structure. At other times they can just fall wrong and die. Its not exactly black and white.

Huh. I had actually never heard that about the neck before. Good to know, and good points.

[Water Dragon]

ok, raise your hands: how many people have actually been attacked by a person with a knife and/or taken one away from someone who was at least seemingly getting ready to use it?

stabbed once, shot at twice.

[Lucas]

stabbed once, shot at twice.

one time a buddy of mine jumped through my front door with a knife in his hand pretending to be an attacker. i suprised myself by kicking his wrist and sending his knife flying.

his intention was not on assault, so it wasnt even any where near realistic. were his intention to actually harm me, i probably woulda been shanked. but my reaction and reflexes suprised me and kind of put me in a small state of denial for a minute, which in itself would have gotten me messed up if he were a real attacker. i was 17 at the time and stupid.

i ended up stabbing this same friend with a knife one time and unfortunately doing permanent damage to him (his hand). needless to say we werent very friendly at the time, but to be fair, we both had knives and he slashed my left tricep.

i was stabbed in my calf on one occasion when i was being jumped by various guys. they didnt want to kill me but they kicked my ass real good. one guy had a knife, one guy had a minibat, the rest kicked me when i was down. didnt even need stiches though, so doesnt really count.

ive had guns pulled on me no less than 8 times, though no shots fired (edit: i should add that 3 of these times were confused police officers, which I had called. they were operating on better safe than sorry, i must look like a bad guy ;) ). last time our entire office was taken hostage at gunpoint. man that was fun.

but all in all, ive never had a serious knife encounter.

I would like to hear about some actual knife combat situations if anyone is willing to share.

[BoulderDawg]

8 times!!!!! I can't imagine. I had a gun pull on me in a parking lot one time because of a road rage issue. The gun wasn't C ocked or aimed directly at me and I was close to knock it out of his hand if need be. Anyway the guy ran as I took a few steps towards him...Jesus was I mad

Me personally, I'm of the opinion that if you pull a gun on someone then go ahead and use it. Most people use a gun to threaten. Never a good idea. If I did carry a gun I would have blew the guys head off as soon as I saw his gun.

I've never been attacked with a knife.

[Lucas]

3 times cops.

1 time armed bank robber

1 time trinidadian drug dealers (HUGE mis understanding, the guys gave me and a friend a ride down the mountain later in that day, kinda strange story)

1 time home intruders (sleeping at a friends house, wrong place wrong time)

2 times gangsters (wannabe's kid punks, though it makes a firearm no less dangerous) from where i grew up.

[TenTigers]

once with a big folder-also slashed two or three times at me then ran away
-good for me.
once with a boxcutter (stanley utility knife) I blocked with my hand-got cut, he ran away
-bad and good for me.
Bad- I got cut, no major cables,though,
good- he ran, I could have bought it then.
I've seen friends get cut, enemies too. Knives are very, very dangerous.
It takes much less power to do incredible damage with a sharp blade.
A great equalizer. I teach my female students some of the blade I picked up.

[friday]

Im going to try and pick up some trad knife fighting when I visit my sifu next month - but can anyone tell me where I can get some training for knife fighting and disarms in Sydney?

Thanks
Friday! its my day!

[SoCo KungFu]

That would be why I said, "generally speaking." In any case, unless you're talking about a really shallow or stupidly-placed slash, there's not exactly a terrible chance of hitting some of that internal goodness either way; indeed, a sufficiently deep slash (say, to the gut or lower back) is more likely to cause problems because it covers a wider area and is hitting more structures all at once.

And anyway, look to the video posted by, I think it was, Knifefighter; the one showing a man stabbing the victim he's sitting on something like 30 times. If that man was going for a kill, which I think it's pretty reasonable to assume he was, a single slash across the throat would easily have accomplished what a couple dozen stabs to the face/neck/chest area failed to do. Using a blade to go for a kill in the moment means, above all else, aiming for rapid massive blood loss, which a slashing attack toward effective targets is simply more likely to provide.

"Generally Speaking," no....have you ever even actually been in an ER? Do you actually know anything about kinematics of injury? In even a "stupidly" placed penetration, its a very real danger that it can pierce underlying body organs. You do know you can bleed to death just as easily, even if external blood loss is minimal. With the exception of the neck a slashing injury will most likely net you some stitches and a nifty scare to tell your friends or impress some chick with. And while we're on the subject...Do you even know the anatomical difference in positioning between a jugular vein and a carotid artery? While neither are choice, one is definitely more severe than the other.

As far as a "sufficiently deep slash to the lower back or gut." Do you realize what you're even saying? Aside from all the muscle and fat tissue...do you honestly think you are going to accomplish that type of injury slashing with a common knife? Big ole butcher knife maybe, but getting stabbed by that same knife is probably going to be worse.

Anyways this whole topic is stupid. Being on the wrong end of a blade isn't an idea of a good day regardless of how. That being said, 95% of the time a deep penetrating injury with potential to perforate underlying internal organs is going to be much more severe, create more complications posing greater threat to life and require greater time and attention in recovery than a more superficial laceration.

And I don't need to look at some video of some jerk-off going to town with a knife, I've seen it first hand.