Phillip B doing his thing

[Ernie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLWWfZvaO4U&feature=channel_page

enjoy

[stonecrusher69]

Cool.. His hands look very much like his sifu's..You can almost feel it buy looking at it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He obviously lacks chi, which says a lot of good things about his WC !
:D

[k gledhill]

Checking elbow positions ;)

[chusauli]

And he's very good - he has WSL's style and flavor.

I also applaud his perserverence and hard work.

[sihing]

Phillip has a very good rep in the WSL line, as can be seen from this vid, he definetly knows his stuff:) Whether or not if he can actually fight, I still highly appreciate his specific Wing Chun skills and would absolutely attend a seminar or visit his school to get some training in with him if the chance would arise.

I think lots of people forget, that he does all of this with a slight handicap, as he has only one hand, so you have to give him credit where credit is due. I've heard that he had to work damm hard to gain the skills he has. A good example of what can be done with a good work ethic, understanding of the material at hand and consistent effort, combined with the guidance of a Sifu/coach like Wong Shun Leung.

James

[k gledhill]

A system based on elbows and forearm angles ...hand or not makes no odds :D it helps , but we aren't meant to grab anyway unless forced to or have to, its JUT sao not lop anyway...but thats another thread :D
I never felt a chi-sao like his, or heard it explained as he does. I thought I was doing VT until I met him :D
the saying ...when you drink water you always think of the source...I feel Like I drank closer to Yip Man and WSl than from anything before.
I gained a confidence inside I never had before from years of punching fighting guys etc..., I felt for the first time that I could really have an edge over someone using a simple skill , rather than sticky hand bs. Chi-sao changed radically from wristing feeling cr&p, to developing the 'IDEA' .

I kept listening ...

[chusauli]

Kevin,

What you are speaking about is WCK's Chum Kiu skill - the area of the elbows to the wrist, and from shoulder to elbow, and the torso powers it from the Horse, waist, and hips. That is WCK. Most people think WCK is the extension - i.e. the fist, palm or biu sao, but real WCK is in the skill of the body and bridge.

Phillipe is showing that.

Most WCK think of SNT and BJ extension.

Very good.

[k gledhill]

He begins the idea in SLT ...the first actions show the wrists xing the line , not hi/lo gan sao....the training is to make the elbows in ...the only time we do this is SLT.
Chum kil according to PB is to end the fight quickly as possible ...to take yourself to them with good stance unity as you said. Coupled with the techniques developed from SLT ...not moves , subtle but its like being shown a part of the instructions to make a car you thought you had seen already...everyone I show this to says exactly the same thing ..
" How come I never heard it explained like this before ?" same results guys drop what they are doing /done for years because they know in that moment its a waste of time....

waste of time ...all those years, scary huh ? would you want to face that ? I didnt even know it was coming :D...thinking I would meet PB and see ANOTHER way ....

He doesnt pay me either to say this :D he moves like bruce lee...fast explosive intense !



set the fire in me again...

[chusauli]

That's how I felt when I learned from Hawkins. :)

In WCK terminology, we see the difference between Chien Bei Sao (Before Arm Hand) and Hou Bei Sao (After Arm Hand).

The majority of WCK is Chien Bei Sao.

Only a few learn Hou Bei Sao.

This terminology is useful in judging the ability of any WCK system practitioner.

If you're good you have it.

[k gledhill]

Being 'good' is no longer a random event ;) its a 'way' of thinking, that is lost to 'wristers'
, guys who spend hours feeeeelinng :D waste of time sadly.

one develops a fighter, the other a game player .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sometimes a "disability" allows one to find his way in a MA faster and better than most.
JJ Machado is another fine example.

[t_niehoff]

Being 'good' is no longer a random event ;) its a 'way' of thinking, that is lost to 'wristers'
, guys who spend hours feeeeelinng :D waste of time sadly.

one develops a fighter, the other a game player .

No. You develop a fighter (and fighting skill) ONLY by and through fighting, not by playing chi sao (however well you think someone plays).

[sanjuro_ronin]

No. You develop a fighter (and fighting skill) ONLY by and through fighting, not by playing chi sao (however well you think someone plays).

what about fighting related drills?

[couch]

Being 'good' is no longer a random event ;) its a 'way' of thinking, that is lost to 'wristers'
, guys who spend hours feeeeelinng :D waste of time sadly.

one develops a fighter, the other a game player .

Being good has a LOT to do with the 'way' you think and the 'way' you approach Wing Chun (or any other martial art). I also get what you're saying about wrist vs. elbow programming, though. But THAT argument has been going on as long as Ball vs. K1 vs. Heel shifting!!! LOL :D

[t_niehoff]

what about fighting related drills?

It depends on HOW you drill.

One sort of drills are essentially snippets of fighting (situational) -- for example, drilling passing the guard -- where you practice exactly what you are going to do as you are going to do it under realistic conditions. As you are fighitng within the drill, you will develop fighting skills by doing these sorts of drills.

The other sort of drills are prep work: developing coordination, etc. so that you can do the fighting and drilling mentioned above. This won't develop fighting skill but will enable you to do the fighting to develop fighting skill.

[couch]

It depends on HOW you drill.

One sort of drills are essentially snippets of fighting (situational) -- for example, drilling passing the guard -- where you practice exactly what you are going to do as you are going to do it under realistic conditions. As you are fighitng within the drill, you will develop fighting skills by doing these sorts of drills.

The other sort of drills are prep work: developing coordination, etc. so that you can do the fighting and drilling mentioned above. This won't develop fighting skill but will enable you to do the fighting to develop fighting skill.

You fight like you train. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

It depends on HOW you drill.

One sort of drills are essentially snippets of fighting (situational) -- for example, drilling passing the guard -- where you practice exactly what you are going to do as you are going to do it under realistic conditions. As you are fighitng within the drill, you will develop fighting skills by doing these sorts of drills.

The other sort of drills are prep work: developing coordination, etc. so that you can do the fighting and drilling mentioned above. This won't develop fighting skill but will enable you to do the fighting to develop fighting skill.

Agreed.
:D

[t_niehoff]

It continues to surprise me that people put up videos of themselves doing forms or chi sao (as though this was somehow impressive) and that others fawn over them.

To me it is like riding a bicycle.

You can create some bike riding forms where you go through the motions of bike riding (peddling, steering, braking, etc.) in the air. But does performance of those bike riding forms say anything about your bike riding skill? Wouldn't you feel silly showing others how "well" you perform your bike riding forms? Or arguing over whose bike riding forms were more "correct"? Or how your "lineage" had the original bike riding forms?

And then you can get a bike and put training wheels on so that you can practice riding a bike in an unrealisitc, limited way. Chi sao is WCK with training wheels. Wouldn't you feel silly showing everyone how well you can ride your bike with the training wheels? Or having training wheel bike races (chi sao contests)? Or fawning over how well so-and-so rides his training wheel bike? Or even thinking that riding with training wheels in any way prepares youfor mountain biking?

Does it help you learn to ride by practcing with training wheels? Perhaps. But you learn to really ride the bike by actually riding the bike without the training wheels. You become a better bike rider by really riding the bike. In fact, your bike riding skill will correspond to howmuch quality time you put in actually riding the bike -- not practicing your bike riding forms or riding around with the training wheels on.

[k gledhill]

No. You develop a fighter (and fighting skill) ONLY by and through fighting, not by playing chi sao (however well you think someone plays).

I thought that was obvious......what do you think happens when you learn to fight rather than do chi-sao games...? you fight more and understand the drill serves and end goal....not the end itself.....

you have to understand the system before talking Terence

[sanjuro_ronin]

It continues to surprise me that people put up videos of themselves doing forms or chi sao (as though this was somehow impressive) and that others fawn over them.

To me it is like riding a bicycle.

You can create some bike riding forms where you go through the motions of bike riding (peddling, steering, braking, etc.) in the air. But does performance of those bike riding forms say anything about your bike riding skill? Wouldn't you feel silly showing others how "well" you perform your bike riding forms? Or arguing over whose bike riding forms were more "correct"? Or how your "lineage" had the original bike riding forms?

And then you can get a bike and put training wheels on so that you can practice riding a bike in an unrealisitc, limited way. Chi sao is WCK with training wheels. Wouldn't you feel silly showing everyone how well you can ride your bike with the training wheels? Or having training wheel bike races (chi sao contests)? Or fawning over how well so-and-so rides his training wheel bike? Or even thinking that riding with training wheels in any way prepares youfor mountain biking?

Does it help you learn to ride by practcing with training wheels? Perhaps. But you learn to really ride the bike by actually riding the bike without the training wheels. You become a better bike rider by really riding the bike. In fact, your bike riding skill will correspond to howmuch quality time you put in actually riding the bike -- not practicing your bike riding forms or riding around with the training wheels on.

People demo chi-sao and forms to show their ability at doing chi-sao and forms, not to show their fighting ability, if people choose to view it that way, that is their problem, no?

[k gledhill]

Being good has a LOT to do with the 'way' you think and the 'way' you approach Wing Chun (or any other martial art). I also get what you're saying about wrist vs. elbow programming, though. But THAT argument has been going on as long as Ball vs. K1 vs. Heel shifting!!! LOL :D

way of thinking= knowing your developing to be a fighter not a performer of forms , and drill mastery or a chi-sao'er doing hours of trapping and feeling :rolleyes: there is a simple attack process, using the by products of the training. Most like I was , are shown the parts as moves/ bytes, that fall apart in a free for all of real time fighting...you need to move relative to a given line of force by the opponent naturally, you have to have techniques that allow one to attack as you deliver tactically defensive responses ...still attacking...:D

There is a systematic process, with redundant levels [ dan chi sao for one] chi-sao as well, there is a lot of redundancy in chisao , like using two arms extended equally together when fighting , seeing competitions with this as the goal to use 2 arms together in a clinchlike fight defeats the whole idea

I had a lot of fights personally , and never saw a connection with the 'self-defense side most learn today. AKA moves :D...when you fight you are aggressive and attack people.
You go at them like an animal ..grrrr :D so if you attack people , the system helps to develop an ability to do this ...straight lines at angles to other lines of force will naturally
cross each others path .

You wont see this if your shown a center-punch blast as fast as you can :D then do pak sao kick boxing with a jamming bong ...;)

[k gledhill]

There is a distinct and simple process , lost on many on the way because they adopt a chi-sao mind of over trapping over using 2 arms , over feeling....why ? simple they arent aware of a process, or lines and angles to deliver the fighting concepts...instead it is lost to
over drilling redundant levels ...adding more elaborate actions INSIDE an already redundant stage....making it more seems to make it a better thing ...NO :D

Chi-sao serves as a platform for 2 equal students to engage in random sides of give and take and ingrain natural reactions , while perfecting certain arm/elbow /stance/balance positions for fighting ....they wont adopt these same positions when engaging the opponent....the fight wont be as chisao. So why try to feel 1st , chase a hand to trap it, stand in a drilling posture ...use 2 hands extended standing in front of your enemy...?

One of the very basic ideas is to fight 50% of the person with 100% of yourself...you can do this if you train to use one of your arms as 2 per single strike and think to engage 1/2
the person with timing and perseverance of an end ..to defeat by attacking.

We see it in the UFC , guy gets hurt ,, time lapse of training to back off and start again..then the brain kicks in attack commences and the space has allowed the guy to recover ...or the ensuing attack is done on the front toes lunging with flailing strikes off balance , guy being attacked stops, attacker doesn't , ...loss of space for lack of training to ATTACK people in the right space , right time , right place.....with a simple idea working for you.

VT isnt a 'style' its the attack you see people delivering ......it only looks like VT if you stand and pose ; )

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look, what Phillip shows in that video is good chi sao. He understands a lot of things, including good technique in both attacking and defending, the body mechanics of good driving power, good delivery of short range vertical fist punching and palm striking, deflecting power, getting advantegeous body angles, etc. He's fast, he's aggressive, he knows how to stick to his opponent in order to control him, unbalance him, push him here, pull him there, and so on.

But it's just chi sao.

It's not fighting. It's a drill (chi sao) that enables a wing chun practitioner to develop certain things crucial to his close quarter striking art - but it has serious limitations in the overall scheme of things as regards what total, all-out fighting is about.

Just go back and look at what Phillip's partner/opponent is doing throughout the entire video.

And then ask yourself the following question: How much of what I saw from that guy is what I'm ever likely to see coming at me in a real fight, or a sparring match, (especially against a non wing chun guy), in a serious tournament, etc ???

Chi sao skills (and related drilling) are essential for developing and maintaining good overall wing chun expertise - but actual sparring/fighting is more essential. Because that's where the rubber hits the road. Until then you've just been tuning up the engine.

That's the bottom line here. After a certain amount of time spent learning the system, (and one has to assume that Phillip has reached that point long ago)...at that point...

for every hour of chi sao (and chi sao related drills) you do - you should be spending at least two hours actually sparring/fighting.

That's how I see it.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . .
for every hour of chi sao (and chi sao related drills) you do - you should be spending at least two hours actually sparring/fighting.

That's how I see it.
Victor, how can you say such a blasphemous thing? You don't need to fight to learn fighting. You just need forms, drills and chi sao. ;)
Phil

[Buddha_Fist]

But it's just chi sao.

It's not fighting. It's a drill (chi sao) that enables a wing chun practitioner to develop certain things crucial to his close quarter striking art - but it has serious limitations in the overall scheme of things as regards what total, all-out fighting is about.

Just go back and look at what Phillip's partner/opponent is doing throughout the entire video.

And then ask yourself the following question: How much of what I saw from that guy is what I'm ever likely to see coming at me in a real fight, or a sparring match, (especially against a non wing chun guy), in a serious tournament, etc ???

Chi sao skills (and related drilling) are essential for developing and maintaining good overall wing chun expertise - but actual sparring/fighting is more essential. Because that's where the rubber hits the road. Until then you've just been tuning up the engine.

So?

The video shows Philipp coaching his student by constantly checking elbow positions (what you see as a push), Wu Sao, etc. under pressure and in a continuously changing situation, hence instilling several habits so they hold up when his student is put under real pressure.

He's not sparring with a student, he's coaching.

Nuff said.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that sometimes people forget that someone demos things when they wanna show what is being demo'd or when they are instructing.
You don't see many people instructing in a middle of an all out fight.
Sure it would be great to see the "you see it taught, you see it fought" way of the Dog Brothers in their instructionals, but lest be truthful, for online clips and such, you don't really have the time or space to do more than demo.
Now, that said, it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone to follow the principles of:
YOU SEE IT TAUGHT, YOU SEE IT FOUGHT, when doing instructionals.

[TenTigers]

You don't see many people instructing in a middle of an all out fight.
.

there was a story of Bruce Lee doing just that, on the set of one of his movies. One of the extras was talking s**** and saying that he wasn't a fighter, just an actor, etc. Bruce Lee and him went at it, and while Lee was hitting him he was correcting his techniques. The guy was bloodied up, yet thanked him at the end.
-or so the story goes.

Probabaly one of those,"You're head's open" -thwack! type of "Instruction."

[taojkd]

I think that sometimes people forget that someone demos things when they wanna show what is being demo'd or when they are instructing.


I think the vid is a demo, not fighting.

As for the chi sao argument, i only train reactions in chi sao where i know exactly what the application is from sparring. I'm sure there are plenty of techniques that only exist in chi sao for scoring a hit (given that both arms are extended), but don't translate well into actual fighting. I don't really care to "play" chi sao as a competition. I like to play chi sao to fine tune reactions as a means of training in good muscle memory (i.e. a refinement drill).

Personally, i have found that sparring for a round, then taking one bad habit you did when sparring and training in good muscle memory in chi sao for a round (-repeat) is a good way to get better at fighting. Fight some, refine some, fight some more etc.

[t_niehoff]

I thought that was obvious......what do you think happens when you learn to fight rather than do chi-sao games...? you fight more and understand the drill serves and end goal....not the end itself.....


If it was obvious to you, then you wouldn't marvel at videos of people riding around with the training wheels on.



you have to understand the system before talking Terence

People who talk about "understanding" are the theory/fantasy guys.

It's not about "understanding" -- it's about skill (being able to do it). And skill doesn't come from "understanding" (if anything, understanding comes from skill). You don't "understand" how to ride a bike: you learn the skill and then get better by doing it. With a skill you talk about "knowing how to" as opposed to "understanding" (for example, you "know how to" wrestle or box as opposed to "understanding" wrestling or boxing), and you can only demonstrate that (skill) by doing it.

Videos of people doing bike riding motions in the air (forms) or riding around with the training wheels on (chi sao) doesn't show they can ride the bike or "know how to" ride the bike.

[t_niehoff]

People demo chi-sao and forms to show their ability at doing chi-sao and forms, not to show their fighting ability, if people choose to view it that way, that is their problem, no?

People can demo whatever they like.

At the same time, I was suggesting that we need to keep in mind the meaningfulness of what is being demo'ed. Doing bike riding motions in the air (forms) doesn't demonstrate anything other than you can do bike riding motions in the air (forms). Riding around with a bike on training wheels (chi sao) doesn't demo anything other that you can ride around on a bike with training wheels on (do chi sao).

[sanjuro_ronin]

People can demo whatever they like.

At the same time, I was suggesting that we need to keep in mind the meaningfulness of what is being demo'ed. Doing bike riding motions in the air (forms) doesn't demonstrate anything other than you can do bike riding motions in the air (forms). Riding around with a bike on training wheels (chi sao) doesn't demo anything other that you can ride around on a bike with training wheels on (do chi sao).

I agree with that.
While clips of people doing specific things can show some of that persons skills doing THOSE specific things, the only way to judge someone fighting ability, short of fightign them, is seeing them fight on a consistent level, perferable with well trained people.

[t_niehoff]

I agree with that.
While clips of people doing specific things can show some of that persons skills doing THOSE specific things, the only way to judge someone fighting ability, short of fightign them, is seeing them fight on a consistent level, perferable with well trained people.

Exactly. A martial art is to develop fighting skills, right? Well, we don't see fighting skills in forms or chi sao -- you only see them in fighting.

If you practice doing bike rinding motions in the air (forms) for years, you'll naturally develop the ability to do that "well." If you practice riding around on your bicycle with the training wheels on (chi sao) foryears, you'll naturally develop the ability todo that "well" too. But this says nothing, absolutely nothing, about having the ability to really ride the bike.

And I find it amusing that people point to things they see in the "air movement" (forms) or the training wheel practice (chi sao) as being useful in really riding the bike. How do they know if they don't ride the bike? It's theory.

[taojkd]

A martial art is to develop fighting skills, right? Well, we don't see fighting skills in forms or chi sao -- you only see them in fighting.


I think what separates one style from another is how you get to be good at fighting (the training methods). Without forms and drills, like chi sao, fighting is just completely chaotic. A good demo of a martial art is going from a form (i.e SNT), to a static application with a partner (i.e. chi sao, counter-punching drills), to live fighting. Theory ->Drill Application ->Live Sparring

A good demo should show that the instructor knows how to apply the theory to real world fighting (irregardless of style/lineage). I don't just want to see fighting in a demo.

[k gledhill]

Look, what Phillip shows in that video is good chi sao. He understands a lot of things, including good technique in both attacking and defending, the body mechanics of good driving power, good delivery of short range vertical fist punching and palm striking, deflecting power, getting advantegeous body angles, etc. He's fast, he's aggressive, he knows how to stick to his opponent in order to control him, unbalance him, push him here, pull him there, and so on.

But it's just chi sao.

It's not fighting. It's a drill (chi sao) that enables a wing chun practitioner to develop certain things crucial to his close quarter striking art - but it has serious limitations in the overall scheme of things as regards what total, all-out fighting is about.

Just go back and look at what Phillip's partner/opponent is doing throughout the entire video.

And then ask yourself the following question: How much of what I saw from that guy is what I'm ever likely to see coming at me in a real fight, or a sparring match, (especially against a non wing chun guy), in a serious tournament, etc ???

Chi sao skills (and related drilling) are essential for developing and maintaining good overall wing chun expertise - but actual sparring/fighting is more essential. Because that's where the rubber hits the road. Until then you've just been tuning up the engine.

That's the bottom line here. After a certain amount of time spent learning the system, (and one has to assume that Phillip has reached that point long ago)...at that point...

for every hour of chi sao (and chi sao related drills) you do - you should be spending at least two hours actually sparring/fighting.

That's how I see it.

I understand your viewpoint from a 'chi-sao' general view ....what philipp is doing is elbow work using forearms and alignmnet ....the game of sticking for the chi-sao is what most assume is the same...The idea being developed is for fighting , this is nothing like the fighting...the repetition of the same actions is to create mistakes from pressure...the guy PB is training with is making mistakes , PB just keeps the pressue up.
Imaging attacking with chum kil aka how to approach the attck facing the correct way...it wont be anything like chi-sao ...

The problem lies in everyone assuming the same things are being 'worked'

I used to do wristing chi-sao like most, with the game being to strike and block/trap etc...as a thing on its own...no fighting correlation to attacking someone tactically ...and only using chi-sao as a basis to make my actions natural, instinctive to motion and lines of force as I blast in using strikes with alternating hands like most guys doing charging attacks .

What we cant 'see' is the idea being developed/nurtured....why we have so many variations. What one sees is what one assumes is the same or , try to copy it add to it make a few additions ...without the basic idea in the first place.

I trained a long time without the same idea I have now...and feel like I wasted a lot of time...I could punch kick use tan sao liek everyone , do a bong etc...pak trapping...but there was something missing that I was trying to find myself after a while..PB had the answers...its not secrets , I can tell you , show you , anyone...and you will see its actually quite similar to twc. in tactical delivery. only the focus of the system is more on making the arm capable of beghaving in an a way that allows each arm to act as 2 per action . Utilizing the forearms and angles of the strike lines coincide with angles at tangents to the side the opponent throws at you...only by attacking in a way that makes the basic idea work ...if you create an 'intersection' of contact ' like 2 roads meeting ..you have the drills that make the responses flow as you maintain the attack...

but use strikes in common rotation that allow us to have an edge over the other guy with a simple skill....we can still strike with 2 hands in fast rotation . but adopting a hidden technique that makes the inner or outer forearms behave like the other hand , trapping by aligned strike positioning as we strike, not by leaving the line to parry, block. Either arm has the ability to be the opposite force while still travelling on striking lines to the opponents varying angles as we move with them.


So the chi-sao becomes a different idea than the sticking wrsiting trapping that I used to follow...now its aligning the strikes at random , coupled with angling to the specific side your being attacked form , twc same ideas..flanking blind side...

[k gledhill]

So?

The video shows Philipp coaching his student by constantly checking elbow positions (what you see as a push), Wu Sao, etc. under pressure and in a continuously changing situation, hence instilling several habits so they hold up when his student is put under real pressure.

He's not sparring with a student, he's coaching.

Nuff said.

thats my point , what 'you' see is what 'you' associate chi-sao too.....my input is to try to make the 'developmental' stages using chi-sao as an end to FIGHTING ...what we need are the movies I have of PB doing a bit of gor sao, but he has asked me not to post them... its not chi-sao :D

We do fighting entry training as well, have a guy attack randomly etc.. and fight randomly...but what you get is an attacker ...trying to deliver a constant overwhelming assault...so the coaching is to make the pair of 'fighters' see the clash as critical to delivering the attack/ counters...to try to 'turn the opponent' or make the run.

Pressurizing an opponent with relentless attacking can do this but you need attributes , beyond form and drill....heart, a goal :D, fitness levels running etc..] to maintain the idea...heavy bag work, focus pads, I do all this with the students so they know they are learning to ko a guy , not feel a sticky hit with LOP n CHOP :D been there so i know ;)

I use chi-sao now to prove actions and develop the fighting mistakes...iow we fight first and coach showing the idea we are tring to use to be able to simply 'attack me' if I take 2 steps 'away' from you...:D...

WSL and PB met because PB wanted to have a VT teacher, when they met PB was a TKD champion of his weight class, so he was asking guys if they could block his jumping spinning kick ...:D WSL asked him to do whatever he wanted and they faced off....seeing pb had a hand disability WSL asked if he should use one arm too , class act there...PB said no ....PB did the kick WSL stepped back and stood there....WSL asked " how long have you developed that attack ? " PB " x years [ not sure the years :D]...WSl says I beat you attempts to attack me by simply stepping back :D..

Point being if the guy steps away from you, can you sustain the attack? ...VT makes it a science.

I do the same thing now...I ask guys to do their chi-sao thing then step away a few steps and watch them look at me...? then I explain..and do it again chi-sao ...step away

not normal is it ? :D but then you start to see the attack and defender roles...I help you to be a good attacker by coaching ..not trying 'out wristy stick you'...

Then allow my arm to impede the attempted strikes to check for arm chasing as they step towards me, like a guy would just stick his arm out to block a punch......introduce the strike/parry of either arm using tan/jum training ...isolating it in dan chi- alignmet strike drills broken down into a 2 beat " align 1 beat- strike 2 nd beat " becoming redundant when a single strike from either arm is doing the 2 beats of dan chi previously done...

then introducing the closer proximity drilling oc chi-sao...in strike distances and 1beat counters and strikes...with angling to movement in and away of facing the now moved target...attacking 'facing' angling ' strikes with 1 beat 2 function ability in rotation...

introduce the idea that your blocked ...how to keep the attack going....po-pai shoves to regain strike distances in a flowing attack , low stright kisks to allow further enrty even if you step away....

[k gledhill]

If it was obvious to you, then you wouldn't marvel at videos of people riding around with the training wheels on.



People who talk about "understanding" are the theory/fantasy guys.

It's not about "understanding" -- it's about skill (being able to do it). And skill doesn't come from "understanding" (if anything, understanding comes from skill). You don't "understand" how to ride a bike: you learn the skill and then get better by doing it. With a skill you talk about "knowing how to" as opposed to "understanding" (for example, you "know how to" wrestle or box as opposed to "understanding" wrestling or boxing), and you can only demonstrate that (skill) by doing it.

Videos of people doing bike riding motions in the air (forms) or riding around with the training wheels on (chi sao) doesn't show they can ride the bike or "know how to" ride the bike.

Your so busy trying to 'backpeddle' I dont watse time wwith you :D still waiting for your inch punch rational...that thread...

You dont understand the system 'I' am doing ...you can understand what you like I dont care, Im trying to convey an alternative to yours , my old idea....a fighters way of using the system to be a better VT fighter...why would you argue if it might improve you ? you seem like the 3 monkeys while going blah blah cant hear you !! :D

going to repeat mantra forever blah blah...:rolleyes:

wsl was fantasy to you ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your so busy trying to 'backpeddle' I dont watse time wwith you :D still waiting for your inch punch rational...that thread...

You dont understand the system 'I' am doing ...you can understand what you like I dont care, Im trying to convey an alternative to yours , my old idea....a fighters way of using the system to be a better VT fighter...why would you argue if it might improve you ? you seem like the 3 monkeys while going blah blah cant hear you !! :D

going to repeat mantra forever blah blah...:rolleyes:

wsl was fantasy to you ?

An honest question here, who did WSL fight?

[Knifefighter]

An honest question here, who did WSL fight?

And why are there so many WC demo clips, but so few actual "going full on against resisting opponent" clips?

[sanjuro_ronin]

And why are there so many WC demo clips, but so few actual "going full on against resisting opponent" clips?

Actually, I gave up asking that a while ago, no one ever answered...there used to be a clip on youtube of that, it was some teenagers from a eastern european school I think.
It looks like hard contact kick boxing, but there was some obvious "chain punching", if I recall...

[Knifefighter]

Actually, I gave up asking that a while ago, no one ever answered...there used to be a clip on youtube of that, it was some teenagers from a eastern european school I think.
It looks like hard contact kick boxing, but there was some obvious "chain punching", if I recall...

Its funny how many people don't "need" to post any evidence of them actually performing their methods against resisting opponents, yet most of these same people
have the "need" to post about how great their system is and how effective their methods are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its funny how many people don't "need" to post any evidence of them actually performing their methods against resisting opponents, yet most of these same people
have the "need" to post about how great their system is and how effective their methods are.

Ah well...yes, this is true.
And some people tend to justify the effectiveness of their chosen system by what others have done.
Not a good way since what others do or have done has ZERO to do with that we can do.
Heck some people are good fighters REGARDLESS of what they do, not because of it.

[k gledhill]

they didnt have videos and you tube back then ...:D

You cant see whats being developed in videos ergo we get T with the threads of " its a form in the air wow, its chi-sao , gee wilickers..." I cant blame him and the video doesnt explain anything ...so its going to be pigeonholed as another chi-sao video wow ...

Im trying to explain the underlying ideas... sadly those need more videos...maybe Ill try to post some soon. easier than words, my student say this, THEY understand what Im saying , but relalize that most wont, becasue they are trying , like I used to , that a tan is a the same tan and a bong is bong ...the ideas and developmental directions are completely different. And yet when you see / hear them you can still use your existing 'framework' but with a new set of instructions ...and embark on a new road of endless training :D Im almost 50 !! I started when I was 24:rolleyes:

[m1k3]

I have seen a couple of clips on youtube that were supposed to be of rooftop fights. They were black and white, grainy and the skills were not very impressive. I was going to make some additional comments but I didn't want to open the "street vs. sport" can of worms. :eek:

[Knifefighter]

Im trying to explain the underlying ideas... sadly those need more videos...maybe Ill try to post some soon.

Your ideas posted to video would have much more validity if they also included actually going hard against resisting opponents.

[punchdrunk]

i enjoy the posts in particular the part about disengaging from the chi sao to make the learner either maintain and overwhelm the partner or face another re-entry, that is familiar to me. I don't really worry about chi sao not being fighting, neither is any other drill really. Actually neither is competition. TO fight you must fight, so either get a violent occupation or start challenging others with no rules. Neither is something i suggest for fun more out of percieved neccessity (pay the bills).
Thanx for the post K.

[m1k3]

i enjoy the posts in particular the part about disengaging from the chi sao to make the learner either maintain and overwhelm the partner or face another re-entry, that is familiar to me. I don't really worry about chi sao not being fighting, neither is any other drill really. Actually neither is competition. TO fight you must fight, so either get a violent occupation or start challenging others with no rules. Neither is something i suggest for fun more out of percieved neccessity (pay the bills).
Thanx for the post K.

Punchdrunk, I believe competing in MMA is about as close as you can get to a real fight legally. I do BJJ as my main art and I do it mainly for the rolling. You can go pretty close to full force and still have a lot of fun doing it without worrying about serious injuries.

At 55(almost) I have NO intention of ever getting into a real fight but the competition on the mat can get pretty intense. You are dealing with many of the same issues as you would in a fight such as fatigue, an opponent who is out to beat you and the randomness of not knowing what will happen next.

If I were to get into a fight I feel comfortable in knowing that I can go hard against a variety of different types of opponents, I know what it feels like to have some one put their best or near best effort against me, how to get out of bad situations and that I can deal with a fair amount of pain.

Is this really a fight? Nope, but it is about as close as you can get in a training environment.

There are a lot of people out there who "train" but have never been pushed hard, have never felt what it is like to be gassed out yet keep on going and who have never had to push through the pain of a solid neck crank or punch to the face and keep going.

As for multiple opponents and weapons, unless you can get out of Dodge you are going to get hurt and probably bad. All the training in the world won't help you deal with the shock and blood loss of a serious cut. Or how to deal with 2 or 3 people trying to beat the sh*t out of you at the same time.

So, train because you enjoy it and don't sweat the small stuff.

:D

[k gledhill]

this is a specific part of fighting. Its called 'felony assault' I believe, how many years one gets for it ? I dont even want to know ...when I was doing security work in bars etc..if a guy got into a fight he would leave immediately and another guy would swap with him...jail is a reality , been there several times , spent the night a few times :D but we all have wild backgrounds ..er dont we ? Ive had 40-or more fights hands on street beatings weapons etc...so what, its my reality not Terences :D

My idea of fighting is to attack you without warning ;) not a nice thing but it works . :D makes guys edgy around me , cant understand why ? Kidding !!

I fight with the students regularly, we use shoots take-downs , aware of possible scenarios...etc, using weapons, drawing a gun during the conflict, gun retention , guns drawn when on the ground has a funny effect on the following actions :D
Ideas of handcuffing from attacks etc..its not all G&P cage ...I do thai stuff etc...anything to mix it up and break out of 2 guys doing chi-sao for hours :D
I have students of BJJ /wrestling teachers who teach me too, so its not blinkers on and chi-sao forever.

[Knifefighter]

I fight with the students regularly, we use shoots take-downs , aware of possible scenarios...etc, using weapons, drawing a gun during the conflict, gun retention , guns drawn when on the ground has a funny effect on the following actions :D
Ideas of handcuffing from attacks etc..its not all G&P cage ...I do thai stuff etc...anything to mix it up and break out of 2 guys doing chi-sao for hours :D
I have students of BJJ /wrestling teachers who teach me too, so its not blinkers on and chi-sao forever.

If this really was true, it should be a simple thing for you to post a few clips, right?

[t_niehoff]

Your ideas posted to video would have much more validity if they also included actually going hard against resisting opponents.

The point is ANYONE can have an "idea" of how to make their WCK "work". And they can pass along that "idea" to others. They can make that "idea" sound plausible to the gullbile and/or the inexperienced (with fighting). This is precisely what the TCM "masters" do. They can also demo that "idea" in chi sao (training wheels) or demo it in cooperative situations that impress the gullible and/or inexperienced with their performance. But none of that means anything meaningful because what works with the training wheels on (chi sao) or in cooperative situations doesn't mean it will work while fighting at high intensity. The ONLY way to know if what we are doing is valid or not is to do it at high intensity, with hard contact, against athletic, skilled, nonWCK people. If you are doing THAT, and doing it regularly, then you know. If you aren't doing
THAT (fighting), and doing it regularly, you CAN'T know. And, that's the only way to develop your WCK beyond the beginner's stage (forms and classical drills) in the first place.

My view is it doesn't matter who posts videos of what or who had skills in the past. And that's because it doesn't matter what anyone else can do. Wong or your grandmaster or master isn't going to fight for you. And you can't fight like Wong or Leung Jan or whomever anymore that you can fight like Tyson or Ali or any other fighter. What matters is what YOU can do. And you have to find your OWN WAY of doing it. No one can teach you your own way. Just because they can do something, it doesn't necessarily follow you can do it that way or how they say to do it. The only way to find out how you can do it, is to go through the hard work of learning to fight with WCK movement -- of learning to ride the bike. The only way to learn to do that is by doing it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Alright, you guys asked for it. So here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcaqH8fb--c&feature=related

[t_niehoff]

I fight with the students regularly, we use shoots take-downs , aware of possible scenarios...etc, .

This is just another way people delude themselves -- "fight with your students". This is precisely what so many do and it's just another way of keeping the blinders on. Go mix it up with some decently skilled, nonWCK fighters,preferably some MMA guys. Guys who have genuine skills with shooting and taking people down, skilled strikers, etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's one that might raise a few eyebrows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-UIcxMJNQ

[Ultimatewingchun]

Part 2 from the same people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-48M0w1E3c

[Knifefighter]

Here's one that might raise a few eyebrows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-UIcxMJNQ

I'd say that is a pretty good representation of what WC is like when used in a full-contact fight, as well as a representation of some of the inherent weaknesses.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And one more....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39TpLLBIIk&feature=related

[m1k3]

That was interesting. Is that an example of how you train at your school? I may have stuck with my wing chun if we had trained like that....sigh...

[Ultimatewingchun]

I won't comment on how I think some TWC might have eliminated some of the weaknesses knifefighter might be referring to - as opposed to the strictly straight ahead version of wing chun we saw in those vids...

because even TWC has its limitations - and therefore we would be talking about "other" weaknesses...

so all in all, I have to agree with knifefighter's assessment.

Because wing chun is such an infight - it is conducive to the fight going to clinch (and possibly ground) very easily. In fact, one of the strengths, if you will, of what is shown on these vids is how one can smoothly transition from wing chun straight blasts on the centerline/central line (hopefully done when they are appropriate) - and right into double collar ties with knee strikes.

And yes, more to the point of how this thread has turned, this is roughly where wing chun training must take you: all out full contact sparring/fighting.

Chi sao is just part of the tune up. This is the actual road your engine needs to drive on.

[Ultimatewingchun]

m1k1

Yes, in my school when we spar it is full contact with gear and often goes to clinch and/or ground.

[k gledhill]

This is just another way people delude themselves -- "fight with your students". This is precisely what so many do and it's just another way of keeping the blinders on. Go mix it up with some decently skilled, nonWCK fighters,preferably some MMA guys. Guys who have genuine skills with shooting and taking people down, skilled strikers, etc.


Terence YOU need to go out and fight strangers who you havent got a clue if they can fight or not :D try a simple scenario ....fight 2-3 at a time and show us the mixed martial arts wonderment of grappling 3 guys :D

Oh yeah! thats not real its only real if its one on one and I wear shorts and gloves with a ref in a cage ;)

[k gledhill]

The point is ANYONE can have an "idea" of how to make their WCK "work". And they can pass along that "idea" to others. They can make that "idea" sound plausible to the gullbile and/or the inexperienced (with fighting). This is precisely what the TCM "masters" do. They can also demo that "idea" in chi sao (training wheels) or demo it in cooperative situations that impress the gullible and/or inexperienced with their performance. But none of that means anything meaningful because what works with the training wheels on (chi sao) or in cooperative situations doesn't mean it will work while fighting at high intensity. The ONLY way to know if what we are doing is valid or not is to do it at high intensity, with hard contact, against athletic, skilled, nonWCK people. If you are doing THAT, and doing it regularly, then you know. If you aren't doing
THAT (fighting), and doing it regularly, you CAN'T know. And, that's the only way to develop your WCK beyond the beginner's stage (forms and classical drills) in the first place.

My view is it doesn't matter who posts videos of what or who had skills in the past. And that's because it doesn't matter what anyone else can do. Wong or your grandmaster or master isn't going to fight for you. And you can't fight like Wong or Leung Jan or whomever anymore that you can fight like Tyson or Ali or any other fighter. What matters is what YOU can do. And you have to find your OWN WAY of doing it. No one can teach you your own way. Just because they can do something, it doesn't necessarily follow you can do it that way or how they say to do it. The only way to find out how you can do it, is to go through the hard work of learning to fight with WCK movement -- of learning to ride the bike. The only way to learn to do that is by doing it.
yeah no coaching just go for it ...:rolleyes: do your own thing , who needs an idea anyway ! ideas phhhtt !:rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

i enjoy the posts in particular the part about disengaging from the chi sao to make the learner either maintain and overwhelm the partner or face another re-entry, that is familiar to me. I don't really worry about chi sao not being fighting, neither is any other drill really. Actually neither is competition. TO fight you must fight, so either get a violent occupation or start challenging others with no rules. Neither is something i suggest for fun more out of percieved neccessity (pay the bills).
Thanx for the post K.

Seung ma / Toi ma drills help this facing re facing in chi-sao...this drilling seung ma toi ma , is a random equal starting point for each partner to offer attack and counter attack angles relative to the extending attacking arm leg...to adopt the correct response and angle to the given attacking line of force...We deliver an attack and 'strike the strike' Chum kil is how to face /reface the attack lines before you...to move with them etc...and adopt % tactical positions...these same tactics apply to later knife fighting ...so the movemnt is similar that you would avoid being center to 2 sharp blades or 2 arms coming to you form either of YOUR flanks...by simple movement , feinting you can use the simple act of entering to you hard by evasive tactical movement..

fight 1/2 the persons stength if they face you time the counter relative to the over extension/strike etc... minimize the % of the other amr being as effective as it wants to be.

Our own arm attacks are 'lines of force' and can be any strike , the side we take to fight it means we fight that 1/2 of the person while facing and close enough to strike with either arm 'with force' this means moving striking turning etc...in the same timing...its not easy and requires a lot of repetitions of this simple stage....many arent even aware of seung ma toi ma drills and adopt a wristing safety area of 2 beat counters forever with the odd 1 beat 2 arm delivery.

you do a tan [ outside forearm edge] strike , I respond with a jum [inside edge froe-arm] strike as I angle to the entry force while both deflecting the tans line as I strike you with the jum edge strike in one beat...

Your tan 'outsideedge' is one beat attacking with a 1/2 step because you want to move with movement not deliver a strong straight line of force thats hard to 're-face'.

The response teaches alignment relative to a given strike line of force ...you can counter or attack with either depnds on the positions of the fight to respond with the counter or attack the angles...

FAcing the line of attack with the ability to 'reach' with either tan or jum strikes in rotation or a rear vu under arm jum strike ....after a while the angles become natural so you place yourself out of the ability of the offside arm to strike with force without facing you ...most dont train to maintain our idea so they will overturn easier, relative to our centerlines...their movement shows us what sides we attack ...ergo equal ability to attack without stopping because they turned left :D

simple stuff really but hard to make the arms work with the alignment , its very easy to get comfortable touching the arm or 'blocking' by touch rather than try to cut into and through the arm using the forearm bones as you make a heavy blow or not....if blocked you remove etc...strike from the free hand vu-sao...
A lot of the chi-sao is to check the man -vu relationships and elbow positions, under pressure. Repetition leads to sticky games that are redundant ...

CHi-sao is simply the critical point of contact angles with real time movemnt and real time positions angles, elbows power to stop or not , balance to counter an incoming force etc...move with it and after it .....not deliver air strikes as a game of 'tag' or lop n chop got you freeze start again bs...

Same sceanrio as stepping away is to ask the student to hurt you with a punch at chi-sao proximity..AND use the techniques as strike/deflection...usually it takes several goes to get the idea never mind hurt anyone ...you get the idea that you need to hurt people with solid punches acting as 1 beat ..in rotation so EACH arm is capable of doing this on either side seamlessly during the fight... elbow positions are the idea here so SLT + facing of chum kil are combined ...

SLT is the time out for the elbows in of jum/tan....

In some of the movies I have of PB , you can see he simply allows movement across his line rather than adopt tan da or stop it ...allowing the striker to overturn themselves gives us a flank .

[m1k3]

Terence YOU need to go out and fight strangers who you havent got a clue if they can fight or not :D try a simple scenario ....fight 2-3 at a time and show us the mixed martial arts wonderment of grappling 3 guys :D

Oh yeah! thats not real its only real if its one on one and I wear shorts and gloves with a ref in a cage ;)

LOL!!!! That was funny!.....uh wait....you're being serious aren't you?

2 or 3 on 1 is real, and its called a beat down. If you can't beat even one guy in the ring how are you going to beat 2 or 3 in the deadly streets? :confused:

If the 2 or 3 really want to fight and have even a small clue about what they are doing you are in big trouble. Unless, of course, its a kung fu movie and they only come at you one at a time. :p

BTW Terence, help out a fellow grappler here, how do you handle all the glass and lava and aids needles when you are rolling around on the street? :rolleyes:

One of the cool things about grappling is that you have much more of a choice as to whether or not a fight goes to the ground. Another is that you can throw your opponent to the ground while continuing to remain standing yourself.

[sihing]

Terence does have some good points, but he is talking about what I believe is the last stage of development and also about application. When Terence looks at PB's vid, he see's it as playing.

He is right this is playing. Sifu Lam has a good analogy about this. In stage 1 there is training, a give and take between training partners so they can learn the basics. There's lots of repetative training at this stage. Sifu Lam says both parnters must have big hearts to help one another learn. 2nd stage is playing, which is a more random training environment where both partners are not necessarily complying with one another's movement, they counter one another and bring the drills alive from the 1st level. 3rd stage is Bei Mo (challenge fighting), here the two people agree to "test" their skills against one another with limited rules and no real intention of hurting one another. 4th stage is fighting, here there is no testing, no playing but only application, with real intent on hurting the other guy for whatever reason. Each level is useful.

The first 2 are definetly in the relm of training, development of the skill at hand, gaining of understanding and experience with the system being learned. The 3rd stage is a bridge between training and application, to test one's ability and to see where the weaknesses are so that they can strengthen them with more training. The 4th stage is just pure application, with killer instinct in place. Here there is no concern of this or that style, system or anything, rather only victory.

Some of us get stuck at one stage or another. That is why it is wise to have a coach or experienced Sifu in your corner to lead you to the next stage of development. But IMO each stage is necessary to develop proper WC skill, understanding and then application, which to me is a journey one would mostly take on their own.

On this forum we talk mostly about stage 1 and 2, development and simple application in a strict form of what we are learning. The funny thing is, people that are in the 4th stage mindset, critize those in the 1st and 2nd stage mindset, without realizing that neither is talking about the samethings, lol. For me, it is becoming harder and harder to spend time here, simple due to the fact that no one really knows where the other people are coming from. Sh!t, can two people here even agree on what taan sau represents and accomplishes, I doubt it.

The fact of the matter is PB is far better off with the skills he has now (as I am too), in regards to effective use in combat, than he would be if he never took up the practice of VT. To me that is all that counts, improvement.

James

[Knifefighter]

Oh yeah! thats not real its only real if its one on one and I wear shorts and gloves with a ref in a cage ;)

Then you must be doing multiple opponent full-on fights with no gear... please post your vids of this. :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

LOL!!!! That was funny!.....uh wait....you're being serious aren't you?

2 or 3 on 1 is real, and its called a beat down. If you can't beat even one guy in the ring how are you going to beat 2 or 3 in the deadly streets? :confused:

If the 2 or 3 really want to fight and have even a small clue about what they are doing you are in big trouble. Unless, of course, its a kung fu movie and they only come at you one at a time. :p

BTW Terence, help out a fellow grappler here, how do you handle all the glass and lava and aids needles when you are rolling around on the street? :rolleyes:

One of the cool things about grappling is that you have much more of a choice as to whether or not a fight goes to the ground. Another is that you can throw your opponent to the ground while continuing to remain standing yourself.

thats funny :D Im talking about stand up 1st Terence thinks you have to grapple people to be real. and wear shorts ;)

Ive grappled maybe 3-4 times in street fights because I tried to maintain standup with 2-3 guys regularly...no cool aid :D beer was the main reason ;) them not me I didnt start drinking and REALLY being evil for a while...add 6 pack and look out but thats another thread

Happy new year !

[k gledhill]

Then you must be doing multiple opponent full-on fights with no gear... please post your vids of this. :rolleyes:

This was working, 10 15 years ago .. no videos..Plus you never carry a video with you when you go out hoping for a fight :D then ask someone randomly to take the camera as you throw punches :D

my resume : http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ewslnyc/resume.html

[sihing]

This was working, 10 15 years ago .. no videos..Plus you never carry a video with you when you go out hoping for a fight :D then ask someone randomly to take the camera as you throw punches :D

my resume : http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ewslnyc/resume.html

Kev,

I don't think they will ever understand, it's a different way of thinking. I know I didn't until I experienced (like yourself) personally.

If anyone needs to post some vid, Terence should be one of the first. I've had some up for awhile now, and even though I consider it sh!t now, it is still there for all to see. Luckily change and evolution are a constant thing in this universe:)

James

[hunt1]

Good post Sihing right on the mark. There are certain people who post just to hear themselves and never take the time to try to understand where the other person is coming from. They post just to prove to themselves they are right and are not interested at all in understanding how others approach things. They also cannot accept any criticism of their own skills even posting videos that show glaring faults and then attack anyone that tries to point out the faults.

[Knifefighter]

This was working, 10 15 years ago .. no videos..Plus you never carry a video with you when you go out hoping for a fight :D then ask someone randomly to take the camera as you throw punches :D

my resume : http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ewslnyc/resume.html

LOL @ doing it "back in the day" when there was no video. Since you were able to do this for real "back in the day", you should have no problem doing it now in the training facility, since video equipment is now ubiquitous... of course, we all know none of that will or ever did happen.

[k gledhill]

just for you...NOT ;)...I have taken a little camera video several times to class but always forget...one day.
Your missing my point , NOBODY CAN carry a camera expecting random violence and take the shot...like you seek it but you cannot find it....when you dont want it pow it hits you on the head , and it makes you so angry ,, grrrr you forget the camera :D:D:D:D..then your like OH SH&t can we do that again ?? :D:D:D
Happy new year !

[sihing]

Good post Sihing right on the mark. There are certain people who post just to hear themselves and never take the time to try to understand where the other person is coming from. They post just to prove to themselves they are right and are not interested at all in understanding how others approach things. They also cannot accept any criticism of their own skills even posting videos that show glaring faults and then attack anyone that tries to point out the faults.

Thx:)

Their behaviour is that way because (I believe anyways) they have based an identity on their belief's or ideologies. So, if someone criticizes it, it is like attacking them physically, they feel offended. Just because someone does something, it doesn't mean that is what they truly are. For me, I am no fighter, but that doesn't mean I can't defend myself if I am forced to.

The funniest thing, is that no one is saying that the other methods don't work as well, lol. I don't hear anyone saying that boxing sucks, or MT sucks, or that BJJ doesn’t' work, it is just that there are other ways to do things. The thing is VT is not showcased in comps like the other arts I listed are, and the clips on Youtube and other places showcase training instead of application. IMO VT is not a good choice for comps, that's a different animal all together in my book.


Happy New Year everyone::eek::cool::D

James

[k gledhill]

Kev,

I don't think they will ever understand, it's a different way of thinking. I know I didn't until I experienced (like yourself) personally.

If anyone needs to post some vid, Terence should be one of the first. I've had some up for awhile now, and even though I consider it sh!t now, it is still there for all to see. Luckily change and evolution are a constant thing in this universe:)

James


I think we should have a concerted forum request for Terence to show his stuff :D
lets see the moves!! ...the VT in action, how real fighters fight, really... er yeah !:D:D:D

and yeah you have to meet Philipp and do it, not read my take..or you WILL miss all that heavenly glory. One guy in the world to try out. Philipp Bayer.

[sihing]

I think we should have a concerted forum request for Terence to show his stuff :D
lets see the moves!! ...the VT in action, how real fighters fight, really... er yeah !:D:D:D

and yeah you have to meet Philipp and do it, not read my take..or you WILL miss all that heavenly glory. One guy in the world to try out. Philipp Bayer.

Well if I've learned one thing from my experience of going to LA the first time, one will never truly know what is what until you train or fight with them face to face, the rest is pure speculation, which of course is one of the ego's greatest ally.

T will never do it, too much to lose. Plus like he has said about himself in past posts, he sucks anyways:)

James

[k gledhill]

He said that ? Like " I cant fight my way out of a wet paper baaaag " means I think Im great really, but hide behind false humility, meanwhile I will tell everyone how to do it or its just NOT good enough :D:D:D

[sihing]

He said that ? Like " I cant fight my way out of a wet paper baaaag " means I think Im great really, but hide behind false humility, meanwhile I will tell everyone how to do it or its just NOT good enough :D:D:D

He basically tells people not to listen to him, as he sucks, but to go down to where the fighters are (local MMA gym, boxing gym, etc etc..). But he continues to use their words? Very interesting if you ask me, he won't put up, and never shut's up, lol. For me, I already know that I would learn allot by hanging around guys like that. The thing is I'm not interested in learning MMA or boxing, but rather WC. WC is a training system, and in the end it doesn't fight, I do, I just use what the training has taught me to increase my odds in a fight.

Actually, in alot of ways Terence has allot of good things to say, he's the BS meter for the forum...he is just too far to one side, all application, never training. From what I understand he has student spar in the first class and teaches from that. IMO, WC is all about isolation training, taking moments in time and building the reflexes and mechanics from there. But before that can even happen, one has to have the basic reflex within their bodies, ideas like elbow positioning, elbow initiation, stance sitting, mid body alignement, relaxation (in a simple form), all of this is learned with SNT and CK, only to be brought alive with the drills that encompasses VT training.

James

[k gledhill]

It seems just koing someone with a punch or 2 isnt good enough ...I train in a mixed martial art gym...guys all respect each other... No Terence walking around going ' you suck' try it with them over there , they will show you how good I think I am :D:D:D

[Knifefighter]

...he is just too far to one side, all application, never training. From what I understand he has student spar in the first class and teaches from that.

I'm pretty sure he only does that to make a counterpoint to the purely theoretical guys that make up the majority of posts here.


IMO, WC is all about isolation training, taking moments in time and building the reflexes and mechanics from there. But before that can even happen, one has to have the basic reflex within their bodies, ideas like elbow positioning, elbow initiation, stance sitting, mid body alignement, relaxation (in a simple form), all of this is learned with SNT and CK, only to be brought alive with the drills that encompasses VT training.

Our own arm attacks are 'lines of force' and can be any strike , the side we take to fight it means we fight that 1/2 of the person while facing and close enough to strike with either arm 'with force' this means moving striking turning etc...in the same timing...its not easy and requires a lot of repetitions of this simple stage....many arent even aware of seung ma toi ma drills and adopt a wristing safety area of 2 beat counters forever with the odd 1 beat 2 arm delivery.
you do a tan [ outside forearm edge] strike , I respond with a jum [inside edge froe-arm] strike as I angle to the entry force while both deflecting the tans line as I strike you with the jum edge strike in one beat...
Your tan 'outsideedge' is one beat attacking with a 1/2 step because you want to move with movement not deliver a strong straight line of force thats hard to 're-face'.
The response teaches alignment relative to a given strike line of force ...you can counter or attack with either depnds on the positions of the fight to respond with the counter or attack the angles...

There's a reason you will never hear tedious theoretical rambling like the above from people who actually use their stuff against real opponents.

[Ernie]

Hilarious put a wing chun video clip up on a wing chun forum and watch all the egos spiral out of control….
Happy new year guys … new years rez ,,,, stay away from forums they make otherwise sane people act like neurotic lunatics lol
:cool:

[Chuan fa]

Hilarious put a wing chun video clip up on a wing chun forum and watch all the egos spiral out of control….
Happy new year guys … new years rez ,,,, stay away from forums they make otherwise sane people act like neurotic lunatics lol
:cool:

I agree. Makes for some entertaining reading though.

Happy New Year.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Personally, of all the wing chun debates/fights we've seen so far on this thread (including those that were deleted by the moderator) - my favorite wing chun confrontation involved the two cats.

Not very theoretical...but right to the point. :cool:

Of course, some will probably complain that if it went to clinch and ground so fast - then the big cat's wing chun wasn't very good. Obviously, he needs more chi sao training. :rolleyes: :D

Happy New Year.

[k gledhill]

I'm pretty sure he only does that to make a counterpoint to the purely theoretical guys that make up the majority of posts here.




There's a reason you will never hear tedious theoretical rambling like the above from people who actually use their stuff against real opponents.

If you havent heard it before doesnt make it a rambling theory :D its called information you dont understand ;)

[k gledhill]

Hilarious put a wing chun video clip up on a wing chun forum and watch all the egos spiral out of control….
Happy new year guys … new years rez ,,,, stay away from forums they make otherwise sane people act like neurotic lunatics lol
:cool:


Its an old clip too... people see what they know to associate with it...elbows , theory whats that ?:D

happy new year !

[sihing]

Hilarious put a wing chun video clip up on a wing chun forum and watch all the egos spiral out of control….
Happy new year guys … new years rez ,,,, stay away from forums they make otherwise sane people act like neurotic lunatics lol
:cool:

That's a good one bro...I haven't made a resolution in years, but this one I know I can uphold:)

Happy New Year:)

JR

[Ali. R]

That video to me is a very classy clip and he’s doing his thing… And it was put up in good taste because; it is what it is, and that’s very good wing chun…

Why take away or add to that clip especially when most here are highly unqualified, and especially dealing with that man’s level of understanding?

Like the man said, just enjoy it…:(


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

good point, Philipps level of understanding is from a completed system under WSL ...he explains with complete information from the knife down ...a system from a fighters point of view ...
I am just trying to break down the parts for whoever wants to read it...the rest is ??? :D

but nobody could tell from watching one clip...

I get slammed for not showing my own violent tendencies :D:D

[Ali. R]

One needs true understand to look at a clip and to make a judgment or call...

I’m sorry I didn’t see this one…



I think lots of people forget, that he does all of this with a slight handicap, as he has only one hand, so you have to give him credit where credit is due.

James

I like that post, but I feel that the handicap situation that you pointed out there is nothing more then a plus or advantage, because he doesn’t have the disadvantage of giving away intent through his fingers or hand, in which makes him even more dangerous (that side of his body) which will be amazingly hard to read or feel…


Ali Rahim.

[Buddha_Fist]

That's a good one bro...I haven't made a resolution in years, but this one I know I can uphold:)

Happy New Year:)

JR

I say you cannot! ;)

[k gledhill]

One needs true understand to look at a clip and to make a judgment or call...

I’m sorry I didn’t see this one…



I like that post, but I feel that the handicap situation that you pointed out there is nothing more then a plus or advantage, because he doesn’t have the disadvantage of giving away intent through his fingers or hand, in which makes him even more dangerous (that side of his body) which will be amazingly hard to read or feel…


Ali Rahim.

like being stabbed with a short pole aligned to have the mass etc...all aimed correctly into you ...not a pleasant feeling .:D

the alignment ideas of the drill dan chi..chi-sao seng ma toi ma are all without the wrist
wrisiting or flexion of the wrist, or using deflections off the centerline, are discouraged at an early level ...this way when attacking with the trained striking arms [ 2 actions per 1 efficiency], they dont waiver from targets unless acted on by an outside force. from all the systems alignmnet drills , dummy alignment etc..This signal / force immediately tells the displaced arm what to do [ man sao], relative to the centerline , flank , and allows the rear strike [ vu sao] to simply fly in if required while swapping out the previous arm [man sao]....
Also for this reason each arm can be striking outside edge inside edge rotations without stopping. Each fighting whatever flank it is faced with seamlessly...to the onlooker it would look like a chain punching attack , only from the sides , and with elbows starting and recovering back to SLT positions....tight to the line so the both explode off the line forwards [tan elbow spreads off the line in an explosive manner and recovers back to do again ] or hold inward [jum elbow in to close entry after taking the tan strike back to 'reload' ] as they strike....all the techniques feed the ability to attack either flank..ie bongs go sideways left or right depending what arm they are displacing to feed the vu-stike in....open a hole with bong slapping force fill with a strike...
left tan strike would attack the left flank arm [example not fixed] the right jum would take its place in a strike rotation holding the inside line of you facing direction to simply strike ....if anything stops the strike you have a signal to feed off from chi-sao. ...always attacking in....
Jut sao becomes the primary removal rather than the lop sao..jut allows even a missed removal to remain on the strike /defense lines , unlike lop, that missing will chase off line..if your feinted and lop you open up..if your feinted and use jut you still keep striking regardless....no think hit, lat sao chit chung exercises...

the system opens up as an 'attack' development, rather than random wait stand and block chasing things here, there, doing redundant inefficient actions...always being forced to trap and strike with 2 arms fighting one arm...no basic skill ability available....only because it was never introduced.

the end results are that you can deliver a sustained attack flanking, or forcefully grabbing and turning guys from facing you, or be in a place tactically that they cant use both arms equally against you, in a flowing exchange ...made possible by clips like you see PB doing...

don't forget you need one mistake , one opening to try to finish the guy not 5 minutes of chi-sao.

[punchdrunk]

"don't forget you need one mistake , one opening to try to finish the guy not 5 minutes of chi-sao. "
THat's a good point and gets the idea across to not do "touchy feel " chi sao where you roll and roll to increase sensitivity... better to gain awareness by running the hands inside and out and put the pressure on. Happy New Year!

[k gledhill]

we hit , the 'touchy feely' thing is overplayed games, comes from a misguided goal .

If you attack someone and they put their arm in the way of your strikes you need instant , non-thinking responses to keep hitting, not to perpetuate more feeling /trapping. The more you feel touch the more you give the guy breathing time.

attack for 9 out of 10 seconds . raise the %

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's one that might raise a few eyebrows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-UIcxMJNQ

Nice solid contact on this and the other vidoes, though someone should teach these people angles.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, these guys need more footwork and angling, true. But they're serious about what they're doing, that's for sure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, these guys need more footwork and angling, true. But they're serious about what they're doing, that's for sure.

Seriousness in training, what a novel idea.
:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

we hit , the 'touchy feely' thing is overplayed games, comes from a misguided goal .

If you attack someone and they put their arm in the way of your strikes you need instant , non-thinking responses to keep hitting, not to perpetuate more feeling /trapping. The more you feel touch the more you give the guy breathing time.

attack for 9 out of 10 seconds . raise the %


***Yeah, I like these ideas - and would love to see more vids of this kind of thing in an actual sparring/fighting situation with full contact. That would be good, right?

[Ali. R]

we hit , the 'touchy feely' thing is overplayed games, comes from a misguided goal .

If you attack someone and they put their arm in the way of your strikes you need instant , non-thinking responses to keep hitting, not to perpetuate more feeling /trapping. The more you feel touch the more you give the guy breathing time.

attack for 9 out of 10 seconds . raise the %


One can actually hit and block simultaneously with non-thinking responses, the perpetuating of more feeling is to nullify one’s intent into the form of “Da’

Hitting is secondary; being able to stop a strike is the primary… Anyone can throw a punch (strike), but can one stop or block (sao) a punch or strike when it really counts…

What happens when one is able to hit back at will, you may get knocked out… If all one thinks and does is offense, then that’s all one will receive is offense when under pressure and you will get hit a lot, if your opponent has the capabilities to do so…


Ali Rahim.

[Mr Punch]

One can actually hit and block simultaneously with non-thinking responses, the perpetuating of more feeling is to nullify one’s intent into the form of “Da’

Hitting is secondary; being able to stop a strike is the primary… Anyone can throw a punch (strike), but can one stop or block (sao) a punch or strike when it really counts…

What happens when one is able to hit back at will, you may get knocked out… If all one thinks and does is offense, then that’s all one will receive is offense when under pressure and you will get hit a lot, if your opponent has the capabilities to do so…


Ali Rahim.... :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

One can actually hit and block simultaneously with non-thinking responses,Agreed.


the perpetuating of more feeling is to nullify one’s intent into the form of “Da’ English version available?


Hitting is secondary; being able to stop a strike is the primary… Anyone can throw a punch (strike), but can one stop or block (sao) a punch or strike when it really counts…Nonsense. Hitting, as in maintaining a good structure, as in feeling the spaces and allowing your hands to find their way to the opponent's centre (whether a strict line or not), as in maintaining the right lines to cut off your opponent's strikes without looking for and following his arms and before you even disrupt his structure with your punch... is the main objective of wing chun. You are talking about the common phenomenon of chasing arms.

Did you ever see anyone in a real fight or in the ring try to block a strike? It doesn't happen because that kind of reactive stuff is fantasy. If your structure is good you'll limit the options available to your opponent which will sometimes give the appearance of blocking.


What happens when one is able to hit back at will, you may get knocked out… If all one thinks and does is offense, then that’s all one will receive is offense when under pressure and you will get hit a lot, if your opponent has the capabilities to do so…You can get knocked out at any time, by anyone. If you're afraid of getting in hard and taking a few shots your timidity will show in your fighting. Don't think offence: don't think. It's where being an instinctual fighter comes in.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, these guys need more footwork and angling, true.Try 'some'!


But they're serious about what they're doing, that's for sure.Aye, you've gotta be serious when running in a straight line at your opponent. It's kind of like Field Marshall Haig's plan in WW1... :rolleyes: 'Sides, if you're not serious you'll only half remember those half-taught judo throws when your punching is ineffectual!

...oh... snap!

.
.
.
And some people were complaining about a bit of chi sao from P Bayer?

[sanjuro_ronin]

A fight is won ( survived) by the person that inflicts the most damage on the other person(s).

[Ali. R]

A fight is won ( survived) by the person that inflicts the most damage on the other person(s).

If one has equal or more offensive understanding, and can stop your strikes too, then he’ll delivery the most damage (the winner)…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If one has equal or more offensive understanding, and can stop your strikes too, then he’ll delivery the most damage (the winner)…


Ali Rahim.

My defense tends to be offensive, probably because of the kali influence.
Defensive tends to = reactive with most people, not that beat way to go.
Active defense is much better.

[Ali. R]

That’s true especially with “da” and not just with one hand…

The best thing to me about wing chun is “Da”, being able to work both hands together, therefore never being stuck offensively or defensively, nullifying ones intentions through a soft jam and wedge, while at the same time forming the attribute of blocking and striking simultaneously…

Soon as one's opponent attacks, one should re-route their opponent's intensions, while blocking and striking and the same time through softness and structure, not just from offensive awareness...

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Aye, you've gotta be serious when running in a straight line at your opponent. It's kind of like Field Marshall Haig's plan in WW1... 'Sides, if you're not serious you'll only half remember those half-taught judo throws when your punching is ineffectual!

...oh... snap!

.
.
.
And some people were complaining about a bit of chi sao from P Bayer?" (Missed-his-Lunch)


***Do you have any videos of yourself doing any better than the guys in the vids we've been discussing?

Or if that's too hard a question, then perhaps answer this: Do you have any vids of yourself at all actually full contact sparring that you'd like to show us?

[Dave P]

Too bad, this topic isn't about Philipp's vid anymore...

[Mr Punch]

That’s true especially with “da” and not just with one hand…

The best thing to me about wing chun is “Da”, being able to work both hands together, therefore never being stuck offensively or defensively, nullifying ones intentions through a soft jam and wedge, while at the same time forming the attribute of blocking and striking simultaneously…And I thought 'da' meant 'punch'. Guess I was wrong. There's never an easy answer.

While I don't disagree, I always think if you can do it with one hand it's better than doing it with two. So for example, if you throw out a tan-da (Maybe that's what you mean by 'da'... As in something '-da'?) to jam on one side and hit him on the other, you're often uneccesarily overcomitting. Whereas if you can just slip his punch with your own, your punch jams his to some extent (not 'stopping' it: I think that's largely unrealistic and too reactive; but taking some of the wind out of its sails) and your other hand is free to cover (cut down his target options.


Soon as one's opponent attacks, one should re-route their opponent's intensions, while blocking and striking and the same time through softness and structure, not just from offensive awareness...Fair enough, now your position is clearer.


(Missed-his-Lunch)Was that humour Victor, old chap? Might be a New York thing! ;) :D


***Do you have any videos of yourself doing any better than the guys in the vids we've been discussing?

Or if that's too hard a question, then perhaps answer this: Do you have any vids of yourself at all actually full contact sparring that you'd like to show us?Nah. I do have a valid opinion though... or was there a problem with what I said? Tell you what, if you don't agree with what I say, say why, then we don't have to go through this 'Where's your video?!' crap every time someone expresses an opinion that differs from yours. That's discussion.

I don't have video because:
1) When I did full contact MMA I was busy training (and paying for it); my classmates were all in very low paid jobs (the gym was in the East Tokyo projects: literally the only outlet these people have is fight gyms and the only money/time they had for anything resembling socializing was fight gyms) and wouldn't have wanted to take time out to film; and my teacher (being in a very competitive industry over here) wanted control over all the media on him.
2) My kung fu bros don't get on net discussion boards and refuse to be videoed.

I'm not getting any anytime soon because:
1) I've been seriously injured and doing strictly low-impact rehab-conscious training for a year now.
2) See 2 above.

I did have a hard (not full) contact session the other day (not too taxing for me, my opponent is 5'5" or so and probably half my weight though very skilled), but even a vid of that wouldn't satisfy I'm sure: as you know I cross train(ed) so it's not even only wing chun, though the set-ups I used to drop him and sweep him and even get in a body slam position were wing chun structure and angles which if you remember (back to relevance) were what were missing from that Russian vid.

[Mr Punch]

Too bad, this topic isn't about Philipp's vid anymore...I confess I didn't read the whole thread because it started to degenerate into random whiffling. But it is the nature of thread on boards everywhere.

It turned into a discussion about 'what is good wing chun?' which is nearly always unfortunately a matter of lineage, which us lineage ronin don't care about, and consequently are more happy with varying styles of wing chun.

Some people were criticising PB for even doing chi sao it seems. Well, I cross train, and firmly believe in not overdoing chi sao, but would also say that it is a useful practice tool to a certain degree, and essential to udnerstanding wing chun. I was criticising Victor's Russian vid for its practitioners having a too-linear approach, and not using angles at all when in or near contact range... and implicitly in my defence of PB's vid pointing out that his use of angles is good.

I wouldn't be too precious about one thread: you have the right attitude to frequency of posting! :D Then again, your last post missed I'm sure a vital chance to make good points about PB's vid...!

[Mr Punch]

That video to me is a very classy clip and he’s doing his thing… And it was put up in good taste because; it is what it is, and that’s very good wing chun…

Why take away or add to that clip especially when most here are highly unqualified, and especially dealing with that man’s level of understanding?

Like the man said, just enjoy it…:(


Ali Rahim.The thread could have ended here: perfect summary.

But now I'm contributing to the mindless tattle too... I'm starting to feel like Joy (noooooo! I'm too young!!! :D )

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I was criticising Victor's Russian vid for its practitioners having a too-linear approach, and not using angles at all when in or near contact range... and implicitly in my defence of PB's vid pointing out that his use of angles is good."


***AND my whole point on this thread was/is to say that, yeah, Phillip's angles are good, and a whole bunch of other things he does on that vid are good - but I would rather see vids of "good wing chun angles and other good stuff" done in a sparring/fighting situation against a skilled guy trying to put the hurt on also (ie.-in a full contact situation)...

instead of another chi sao vid.

So what's the problem with that?

[Dave P]

instead of another chi sao vid.

There's more sparring in this PhB vid, although still in training situation... and good angles again ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ph7-z6oe9Bg

Chi Sau is an important part of training as we all know, but also very nessecary as it's about enhancing your skills. Ultimately it's all about the real fight, that hopefully never has to come.

Sparring is often used to check on what point we stand, to see where our mistakes are and where we need to improve ourselves. To see what excercises need to be done. Perhaps more Chi Sau, stepping, or even more sparring...for example...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue isn't Phil's skill, its pretty obvious.
It isn't that its a chi sao clip.
Its that, we tend to get "only" static clips of people demoing WC.
Now, BJJ, for example, has its share of guard passing clips and "static and cooperative" clips, but it also has many, many clips of BJJ used in a fight, very effectively I might add.
WC is lacking in this, so it would be nice to see more of them.

[m1k3]

The issue isn't Phil's skill, its pretty obvious.
It isn't that its a chi sao clip.
Its that, we tend to get "only" static clips of people demoing WC.
Now, BJJ, for example, has its share of guard passing clips and "static and cooperative" clips, but it also has many, many clips of BJJ used in a fight, very effectively I might add.
WC is lacking in this, so it would be nice to see more of them.

Quoted for truth. :D

[cobra]

I think I'm going to go get into a fight and make a video of it. Be right back!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think I'm going to go get into a fight and make a video of it. Be right back!

Try to use a good camera, I hate those clips from phones, very unprofessional.
:D

[edseas2]

Phillip B -

He's a whole lot of bad news!

Ed