simple question

[TenTigers]

why does SNT train one side at a time, rather than both together? FHSYK does the same thing.

[eomonroe00]

i dont know, maybe and energy thing, someone once told me that there was something significant about the energy developement when doing something with one side than the other than both together, like some parts of hung gar sets, dynamic tension sections

but i have tried both together, it makes sense, it might be the only form i know where you can do both hands together doing the exact same thing,

i have also done it with the first bak mei form, you have most likely seen it ten tigers,

[TenTigers]

actually many sets perform both sides together, such as saamjien kuen, and sam bo jin...um, ok, that was only two...did I mention saam jien?

[Paul T England]

dam good question

some thoughts..

Can you get the elbow as far across if you use both?

can a total beginner get the same coordination?

it would maek NOT turning the hips easier?

You would not have to concentrate of two hands doing different things

You would probably not be in the stance as long

(at the start of some hung gar forms, they use one hand at a time don't they, why?)

Happy New Year
Paul

[First Blood]

I guess then both hands would have to occupy a different position on the centreline !

[Vajramusti]

why does SNT train one side at a time, rather than both together? FHSYK does the same thing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW/IMO:

There are different sections of the slt. Each section addresses different things. After the first section involving the very important tan, fook, wu motions- another section works both sides together-
gum, fan, kau, jam, jut, biu, han, ding etc together, before going to other single hand flow work You develop live hands individually then work them together. Even when you work them separately. the other seemingly quiet hand is making subtle adjustments.
How someone else does it? Upto them!

Dont know what FHSYK abbreviation is.

joy chaudhuri

[TenTigers]

Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen-Tiger Crane set from Hung-Ga

[Vajramusti]

Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen-Tiger Crane set from Hung-Ga
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen good Tiger/Crane. No significant connection with slt imo. SLT is the foundation of an integrated system. Many other styles including hung ga and clf seem to have collections of forms.
IMO of course.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

1, Alots of Chinese martial art set settup this way based on the Traditional Chinese Blood and Qi balancing set up.


2, According to Emei 12 's teaching (which is a mother component of the SLT passed down by Yik Kam, #1 above was confirmed. and more Emei's teaching is ecoing within the SLT.

3, This sequence set up is a signature or "Time Stamp" for one to observe when it comes to deep search of the SLT and its evolution.

4, if your SLT /SNT is doing that, then by default make your training Qi related. You cant get away from the Zhen Qi stuffs.



And so what is the reason behind the SLT/SNT's sequence?

Do you really wants to know with no guessing? The answer is very very simple ---Zhen Qi and Blood balancing.


I would love to heard from every one why is this stuffs there? simple question right?

[TenTigers]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen good Tiger/Crane. No significant connection with slt imo. SLT is the foundation of an integrated system. Many other styles including hung ga and clf seem to have collections of forms.
IMO of course.

joy chaudhuri
actually, before Hung-Ga started "collecting" forms, it was indeed an integrated system, and consisted of three,or four "pillar sets," working synergystically towards the overall development of the combatant.

In our line, Gung-Ji Kuen, Fook Fu Kuen (Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen) Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen, and Tiet Sien Kuen+Ng Ying Kuen as a later addition perhaps.

Gung Ji Kuen focuses on developing proper structure, alignment,power generation, yeu ma hop yat,Hei-Gung,stepping,shifting. Each section isolates focuses on a specific aspect and training method.
In the second "half" Fook Fu Kuen, these are combined with additional techniques, teaching the student how to integrate the gung-faht with the kuen-faht.
FHSYK-teaches a further refinement of technique, introducing a "softer" ging, whipping energies, elusiveness in body shifting, and combining hard and soft.
Tiet Sien Kuen combines hei-gung,lien-gung,noi-gung, in structural-specific movements designed to incorperate into the development.
Ng Ying Kuen- brings in the mental/spiritual/techniques individually, which then are combined as a whole.

So, it is not a collection of forms (well, not from the start) but an integrated system, designed to take the practitioner from point A to point B in a logical, systematic, progression.
It originally was a short bridging system, and recently added into it were the long-armed techniques.
The main weapons were the pole and butterfly knives, with the Kwan-dao and Tiger fork added for power development, and the dan-dao, as this was an easily procured item-being a standard Ching infantry weapon. The set teaches opening and closing of the structure, and short range vs long range tactics.

That being said, over the past few generations, it has turned into just the opposite-a collection of forms, weapon sets, two man sets, etc. as the emphasis went from training combatants to training performers and opening up schools.

But, like any system, be it Hung-Ga or Wing Chun, it varies from school to school, teacher to teacher.

[TenTigers]

nice post, Hendrick. It would seem that although there might be simple questions, the answers are not that simple.

[Hendrik]

nice post, Hendrick. It would seem that although there might be simple questions, the answers are not that simple.

The answer is very simple if one know.
These stuffs are the 101 of any indoor student in the ancient time. One needs these information to get "into the door".



The following is the answer for SLT/SNT unless the SLT/SNT doesnt follow the description below.


1, For chinese human model, the left side of the body is "blood" dominant/part. The right side of the body is Qi Dominant/part.

since the Qi is travel faster then the blood by nature, Thus design the set with

The left side started and the right side follow sequence balance the speed of Blood and Qi.

IE, first activate the relatively slower "blood " element/part then activate the relative faster qi element/part. This way the blood and Qi are travel in a equal/balance way.

the double hand technics comes in at the very begining or after the left/right activation/cultivation/training. But everything needs to be balance or mirror as the general rule unless one knows exactly what one trying to do by purposely imbalancing the set.

Thus, it can be analogy with warm up the car's cold engine in a balance maner then drive it.


2, It is also known that martial set due to its complexity in movement and the mis timing of the blood and Qi element cause imbalance in body and health after long perior of practicing it.

Thus, Set is not just caligrafy as people today think. There is significant in the movent design.

in the ancient china, such as Yi Jing JIng, it starts by activating the lung medirians. the Emei 12 Zhuang starts with activating the liver medirian. These are different signature of different style and produce different result.




Well, these stuffs are seriour stuffs. But today we take it as no big deal, just physical technics, just caligrafy, everyone can change anything..... NO Shen NO Qi No Yee needed, keep add in this BJJ stuffs and that MMA stuffs and other style stuffs without in depth understanding...

Well, how sad the lost of indepth and keep thinking we know it all but in fact we are more a dodo bird.


The question one needs to ask is that after one practice the set for twice every day and 100 days what is the influence of this practice to the body, health? what is the result? it is not just talks and theory. Yes, the ancient design does produce result from lowering blood pressure to healing different disease to strengthen the body.... unless if the set is just a physical excersice set otherwise there must have result.










Another example is.

Similar to while investigating/ examine an ancient art piece, if it is from India then the India "rule" needs to be follow, if it is from China then the China rules needs to be follow. One cannot using today's rules to the investigation/ examine ancient art and draw conclusion.



This following attemp to explain things is great,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8qiBsOvceQ&feature=related



However, the explanation is off target because it missed the core.


in specific, the person who immitate YM SNT doesnt know the Shen Yee way of practice SNT such as GM TST has trying to educate the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUnR6ozlILQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbDXTBxt7II&feature=related



The other person who is doing the So Called authentic way is actually using a method of Directly moving the physical. This is a different way compare with the Shen Yee Way.


As a summary, The Shen Yee way is the way Using the Shen Yee to direct the qi and transport the body. While the Direct physical way is a way that direct rely on physical.
These two are a very different way.

One caution I would like to make here is that the Shen Yee way is not a short cut to have magical power or Qi blast, it is a different way of power generation compare with the usual Southern Shao lin direct physical/ dynamic tension way. Which in fact often take longer them to handle.




GM YM's teaching is actually very consistence.

Take a look at the YM SNT,
The set is called Little Intention or "nim Tau", which means the set got to do with Nim Training. The Chinese is very precise when in comes to naming.
"Nim" or as GM TST put it --- Nim lek or intentional power -- that is Shen Yee in today's term.

This set is not name as 18 hands or 36 bridge.... ect because the key is Nim.




Furthermore,
This off target example above is a classical case in CMA where when one doesnt understand the art well; and while trying to make it works, substitude the art's power generation with a Direct body method; and since that substitution works compare with those who have no clue about the Shen Yee method.

They think the Direct body method is the "it". not realize they have missed.





basically, it needs to take in consideration the classical Chinese tradition components/rules which is needed when investigating/ examine a Chinese martial art set.
otherwise, we could mislead other even with our good intention to help others.


In this post, we shared two classification components namely
1, the medirians handling and
2, the power generation dna.

the ancient Chinese having more components which makes differentiation of an art to others is clear eventhough we are slowly lossing the knowledge of these components however they exist.

if you love the art of Wing Chun, you can evolve it but dont mess it up because once it is mess up, the art is gone. For example if there is no Youtube of TST above one might think the other direct physical way is the way. and if one think that is the way, then the art of SNT is lost forever.

[zuti car]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BGgc02h95fU

[punchdrunk]

I'd say the simpler answer the better, left side first and alone to make it easier for a beginner to train what is usually their clumsy hand, and to concerntrate on the center and not have to share it yet. Two hands co-ordination begins in the second section. But everyones answer will reflect on what they train and how they train more than the official answer of what SNT is for and how it works, afterall it has evolved over time with different people.

[k gledhill]

we fight facing so each arm extended in rotation can reach the target from a side of the guy you strike....
each arm in the slt is isolated to perfect the action of elbow pre-strike position ...our centerlines offer a reference point. The only time we isolate any inward elbows is ..SNT/SLT . We are made aware of the facing and that each arm is equal to the other in ability...
We dont use 2 arms extended together unless we do Bil gee flank recovery etc...

Each arm is doing the exact as the other in its own extension while the other is in retraction man sao =lead attack hand / vusao = rear attack hand . They rotate as a constant partnership. Never allowing one to be impeded by the other aka tying ourselves up/trapped. Part of the chi-sao is to learn to retract and lead , retract and lead alternate , attack hand , attack hand....doesntmater what side you adopt to flank attack , because you have made each arm individual and work without the other as a 'crutch'

We use this simple ability to fight one arm of a guy we attack using one of ours , only our arms are trained to act as 2 fighting 1 ....its the systems intent to give us this striking dfelecting angles from SLT...and face the approprte angles using chum kil to face and move and reface the correct working angles of the arms as they change sides
etc...flowing with the other fighter...

All we do is to concentrate on the hitting of the moving opponent , the ingrained chi-sao is IF we make an 'intersection' of arms while either arm is leading the striking attack.
The SLT is a solo time to do your elbows in ...when your elbows go out from fatigue doing testing in chi-sao etc..dan chi ..alignment drills...you deliver 'wedges' that block your own acute forearm angles from SLT.

It is these acute angles that when they meet force allow it to slide past and off side away from your centerline.

Tan sao keeps the outside angles clear of the line... jum sao as it takes the place of the tan arm keeps the line closed by holding the elbow in as it strikes , then the tan stikes out from vusao positions, again feeding an outside line out side inside...all that changes is the side you attack and the arm edges ...they cant chase off the line because then ''you' are the windshield wipers yourself facing rain. Rain is your training partner . we help each other to perfect elbows for striking .

. Its easy to prove face to face , and further shows the futility of try to do lateral blocks to a lead arm that is only going to shoot the rear hand in and let whatever you do to lead happen ;) our man sao [asking hand[ is our front line , they block /react we can send it the folowing punch. and so on and so on...rain against windshield wipers ....stand infront of the car and you get taken down , stand next to the front wheels and it cant face you if it tries to reverse you go with it, if it manages to change side you adopt the same positions and have a water fight :D

[Museumtech]

SLT is also known as little idea so we start small, one side at a time. My sifu as, I am sure yours has, explains that SLT in fact works both sides at the same time. Hence the other fist is held back and away from the body. This is the introduction to the two-sided co-ordination.

Peter

[LoneTiger108]

A VERY interesting thread developing here!

I'm with Hendrik (mostly!) on this one. It's definitiely a 'health thing', and something that meant far more three hundred years ago than it does now!

The 'little thought' shouldn't be confused though, wondering how to strike here or defend there like most tend to drift. It's just a thought. A process.

My question is, why hasn't anyone mentioned the 'continual' hand set at the end of the form?? Which includes our signature fist work?

Now take that into consideration with the other two (single and double handed) variations and you have the three treasures of ALL Martial Arts!! Funny that, as it's all represented in just one little form.

How you take that knowledge 'into' your sets is your business, but for the main part SLT/SNT is done how it is presently because that's what everyone agreed back in the day. It helps us to learn how to learn, and sometime to re-learn when we lose ourselves from training far too much irrelevent mush...

[Liddel]

why does SNT train one side at a time, rather than both together? FHSYK does the same thing.

Aside from the fact there are parts of my SLT that do train actions in unisen, ill generalise my POV ...

It would depend on what your trying to accomplish and the results would be driven by that i would think.

Could it be as simple as...

To avoid things like crossed hands - You wouldnt train a double Bong which is why actions like double Fut appear in SLT because they dont break a VT rule such as crossing hands or

To further isolate mechanics - Double Gum turining into raising double Tie Sau done at the same time to focus and isolate the shoulders as the engine driving the forces rather than the usual elbow and wrist used in other parts of the form.

Or to avoid hunched shoulders during practice of the forms.

There a quite a few ideas one could think of but my particular POV is in line with Kevs 'constant partnership' point.
We use individual sides as we train because this is how we should be acting in fighting. One hand has a task seperate to the other literally, but in partnership to further your fighting performance....

DREW

[Hendrik]

there is an answer to every question in design.

HOwever, do one accept the answer? or do one inventing an answer to serve themself.

[Liddel]

there is an answer to every question in design. HOwever, do one accept the answer? or do one inventing an answer to serve themself.

One can only decifer and continue to learn and understand, at one point we thaught the earth was at the center of the universe and had theory to back it up as well as thinking the earth was flat LOL.

Anyone can backwards analyse SLT from what they've learnt, using the theories they have been given to validate conjecture. This is all anyone can do in the case of the question in the original post IMO.

Unless you claim to have been told by Ng Mui or YWC that we begin with one side because Qi travels faster than blood ? :rolleyes:


The left side started and the right side follow sequence balance the speed of Blood and Qi.

IE, first activate the relatively slower "blood " element/part then activate the relative faster qi element/part. This way the blood and Qi are travel in a equal/balance way.

For those that dont train both sides of the side kick in the last section of CK, (many only train one side in the traditional form, i train both L and R)
What would be the effects on thier ability with regard to your comment about balancing Qi and blood ?

Or perhaps as another example, what if i reversed my SLT starting on the right side rather than the left as taught to me by my Sifu. What would be the difference in results in your opinion Hendrik ?

Curious :rolleyes:
DREW

[Hendrik]

Unless you claim to have been told by Ng Mui or YWC that we begin with one side because Qi travels faster than blood ? :rolleyes:





This practice is older then Ng Mui or YWC if they exist.
This is a trace able practice in CMA classic.

What good is to dismiss an ancient reality in energy handling ?

[Liddel]

This practice is older then Ng Mui or YWC if they exist.

Ok fair enough....

Unless you claim to have been told by "insert masters name here" that we begin with one side because Qi travels faster than blood ?


What good is to dismiss an ancient reality in energy handling ?

Even if i agree with you that this is a reason for training one side at a time, what good would it be to emulate how it was done back then... in other words Hendrik -


what if i reversed my SLT starting on the right side rather than the left as taught to me by my Sifu. What would be the difference in results in your opinion Hendrik ?

If what your saying is true (and relevant) then there should be a difference in results between the two seperate methods of starting on the Blood side as opposed to starting on the Qi side..... if i understand your point correctly :rolleyes:

DREW

[Hendrik]

Unless you claim to have been told by "insert masters name here" that we begin with one side because Qi travels faster than blood ? ------


Any in depth TCM expert in China will tell you this. This is just a very basic stuffs.

One can check into the writing of the top internal/martial art grandmaster such as late Dr. Chow Cien-Cuan (who was very famous in the mid 1900) and see for themself what they missed.





Or perhaps as another example, what if i reversed my SLT starting on the right side rather than the left as taught to me by my Sifu. What would be the difference in results in your opinion Hendrik ?


Even if i agree with you that this is a reason for training one side at a time, what good would it be to emulate how it was done back then... in other words Hendrik
If what your saying is true (and relevant) then there should be a difference in results between the two seperate methods of starting on the Blood side as opposed to starting on the Qi side..... if i understand your point correctly :rolleyes:----------


I careless if you agree with me or not. Free world, do whatever you like and responsible for what you do. My post here is for those who like to know what is going on only.

For the indepth Chinese ancient martial artists , practicing the imbalance stuffs cause damaging internal organs and/ or cause stroke....etc.

That is well known in the field.

[Liddel]

I mean no disrespect Hendrik i just find it hard to believe that i can injure myself by reversing the sides in which i start and end a form (or part thereof) of VT or that training single actions or training them in unisen has a detrimental effect on my organs...thats all...


My post here is for those who like to know what is going on only.

:p I posted from the POV of wanting to know more Hendrik, sorry you took it as offencive, not my intention....i just ask questions for examples and try to give context to understand the topic in my own mind. Hence my Qestion about CK side kick and reversing actions in SLT.

You havent really elaborated - your perogitive - so i still struggle to see the value.

:o
DREW

[Hendrik]

i just find it hard to believe that i can injure myself by reversing the sides in which i start and end a form (or part thereof) of VT or that training single actions or training them in unisen has a detrimental effect on my organs...thats all... ------------


You dont have to believe. I dont either in the begining.....
until I saw the report.





:p I posted from the POV of wanting to know more Hendrik, sorry you took it as offencive, not my intention....i just ask questions for examples and try to give context to understand the topic in my own mind. Hence my Qestion about CK side kick and reversing actions in SLT.--------


I am being straight to the point because it is serious stuffs , you sure can take me as offensive.

I always ask people go Bai Si, this is one of the reason. Smart A$$ way doesnt work well for internal Training. The more advance the set the more serious it is. some has no clue on how much damage one can cause oneself while dealing with energy stuffs.


No reason I want to see anyone of you suffer one step missed off by a thousand mile.

Left is your heart, Right is your lever... so which one do you accelerate first? . the body has its own symphony rule...

[Hendrik]

IE:


walking style for balancing Yin deficiency. comes with instruction on how and what part of the body to be activate....

http://www.chinaqigong.net/mltyqg/yqg/XG/gf/index.htm



walking style for balancing Yang Deficiency...

http://www.chinaqigong.net/mltyqg/yqg/XG/gf/index.htm



With proper diagnostic of the imbalance and prescribe the suitable walking Kung, practice for 20-30mins a day will produce result of improvement in 30 days.


These are real kung fu cultivation, with these the body become balance, and only after the body is balance the martial art technics could be perform well.


IT is certainly not about "just work hard" Get more muscle power.... Getting more cardio.... It cant be because for those who are already having weak cardio due to imbalance, pushing it will cause more damage and tear/wear.

These part of the art is real stuffs but it is fading.....


NOTE: this above is just to share what is going on in Advance Ancient Chinese Martial art. DO NOT PRACTICE IT unless you have a SIFU Who knows the art in details and coach you properly.

[Hendrik]

Another important General Rule for those who do SLT/SNT, CK, Or BJ for health.


For Those who has High Blood pressure.

while doing SLT/SNT, CK, or BJ set
limit PALM strike , Bil Jee strike, or Upper block....etc below eyes brow level. Meaning not carry it above or at the Third eyes level.

when rise hands about the eyes brow level think your lower Dan Tien for balancing qi rising rpose.

[Hendrik]

another part of truth beside the physical one



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9nOD6foI64&feature=PlayList&p=EBF010BE77B21E04&playnext=1&index=14

[Tom Kagan]

why does SNT train one side at a time, rather than both together? FHSYK does the same thing.

Why not?

If SNT didn't train one side at a time, then what?

If it didn't start on the left, then what?


The ancestors picked one side at a time, and they picked left first. If they had picked both together or right side first, then that would be SNT instead. But they didn't.

[GLW]

Have you ever considered that the reason may be much simpler...

Most of the routines I know begin with movement to the left...left side twice. For example, Taijiquan often has Grasp Sparrow's Tail only on the right side...but things like Part Horse's Mane is done on both sides..often 3 times with 2 on the left and one on the right. (the modern routines like 24 Posture are more evenly balanced). Routines like Sun Lutang's Taijiquan set have around 60+% of the moves done to the right side. The revamping of that routine got it to something like 55% right and 45% left.

Long Fist sets often begin moving to the left. Such as Tan Tui..where you do odd numbers begin to the left so you always do one more on the left side than the right.... Quite common....

And why....well, it is NOT TCM theory. It is the realization that applications require the use of both sides AND the fact that MOST people are right handed. So, they start with the left to work it first...and to remind the person that the left takes more work because you use it less...

Add all of the other theory onto this...but the fact is that right handedness is the norm and the use of the left hand does NOT come naturally.

[Hendrik]

Do you know that ,

in China, modified Taiji Set is a source of imbalancing ?



The Name Taiji doesnt guareentee anything.

Late Dr. Chow Chuen Cua had a writting by evidence on these in the 60's..... the older generation knows about these stuffs thus they dont make change or make changes carefully.











Have you ever considered that the reason may be much simpler...

Most of the routines I know begin with movement to the left...left side twice. For example, Taijiquan often has Grasp Sparrow's Tail only on the right side...but things like Part Horse's Mane is done on both sides..often 3 times with 2 on the left and one on the right. (the modern routines like 24 Posture are more evenly balanced). Routines like Sun Lutang's Taijiquan set have around 60+% of the moves done to the right side. The revamping of that routine got it to something like 55% right and 45% left.

Long Fist sets often begin moving to the left. Such as Tan Tui..where you do odd numbers begin to the left so you always do one more on the left side than the right.... Quite common....

And why....well, it is NOT TCM theory. It is the realization that applications require the use of both sides AND the fact that MOST people are right handed. So, they start with the left to work it first...and to remind the person that the left takes more work because you use it less...

Add all of the other theory onto this...but the fact is that right handedness is the norm and the use of the left hand does NOT come naturally.

[TenTigers]

I know a person who due to his practice of Bak Mei, developed an imbalance in muscular development of one side of his body-specifically, his back muscles. I am not sure whether this developed into more problems, but I do know that he stopped training in that style. It makes sense, however. If your body overdevelops one side of the back muscles, and the spine, nervous system,and meridians connect directly to the organs, an imbalance would manifest in other areas.
As far as Tai-Chi is concerned, I have heard two arguments for the assymetry of the form. One is that the postures are so designed to balance the energy, and another said that once learning the entire set, you learn it on the other side.
The second, although sounds logical, doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint. Why not simply create a symetrical set to begin with? So, I am inclined to go with the first explanation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know a person who due to his practice of Bak Mei, developed an imbalance in muscular development of one side of his body-specifically, his back muscles. I am not sure whether this developed into more problems, but I do know that he stopped training in that style. It makes sense, however. If your body overdevelops one side of the back muscles, and the spine, nervous system,and meridians connect directly to the organs, an imbalance would manifest in other areas.
As far as Tai-Chi is concerned, I have heard two arguments for the assymetry of the form. One is that the postures are so designed to balance the energy, and another said that once learning the entire set, you learn it on the other side.
The second, although sounds logical, doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint. Why not simply create a symetrical set to begin with? So, I am inclined to go with the first explanation.

Martial arts ie: fighting, is (or should be) high level/intensity physical performance and that is never "healthy".
Just like high level athletes don't always have the b est "health".
Fact is, fighting is hard and unhealthy on the body, so is the training that leads one to be a great fighter.

[Shadow_warrior8]

I think most Hsing I, Pakua, Yiquan, Liu He Ba Fa stylist will disagree with your statement.

The stretching of tendons, ligaments, the breathing, chi, jing, shen, opening closing of the body, small heavenly circulation, big heavenly circulation, bone marrow breathing, opening the spine energy, its all part of "fighting" arts per se, but it works wonders for health as well.

Internal arts(for the lack of a better word) train the body and mind(yi) very differently from external muscle based arts which depreciates without practice or maintenance.

Like I have always been taught, internal practices are closed door stuff. Not secret, not new, just reserved for those with faith and humility.

[Lucas]

yet the act of fighting itself, is rarely if ever healthy.

all someone has to do is get their ass kicked to know that one.

so unless you are fighting, your not a fighter, so then sure your practices can be 100% healthy. but they arent practices that are creating a fighter. they are just health practices.

the aspect of fighting is a required activity for a fighter. without it, you are just something else.

i agree you can carry on with very healthy practices and not be detrimental to your body. but i do not believe a fighter can do this.

[GLW]

Considering that I learned Taijiquan from a founding professor of one of the largest Traditional Chinese Medicine colleges in China..and one who before retirement, sat of the board for doing the certification of graduating TCM doctors, and this person had no problem with 24, 42, 48 Yang Style, actually had a favoring for Yang and Wu Style as well as Shuai Jiao, Long Fist, Baji, and other styles... I think I will go with his professional opinion.

[GLW]

As for creating symmetrical sets.... The new routines like 24, Sun Style modern routine, and so on, WERE designed to be more even. In fact, they actually went to the trouble of counting the number of techniques done on the right and left and endeavored to keep them fairly even.

Now, if you were to speak with people like Fu Zhongwen, the nephew and close student of Yang Chengfu, you would have gotten an ear full on things like the lack of need for Qi Gong exercises - he believed that practice with the Yang Form and then the Yang sword for an hour or more each day was sufficient to promote health and long life...Seeing how he lived to 90... and then Ma Yuehliang and Wu Yinghua also lived long lives...even WITH the Cultural REvolution... and how other masters did as well...

I would say this mysticism is much less important than DOING it...and doing it consistently.

[Liddel]

I agree with lucas and Sanj on that one...

As far as form training, as one example -

My teachers explanation of the opening of CK( how we turn our arms and draw the fists back) when i asked why the difference from SLT ?, is said to emphasise having good shoulder posture.
When he was training in the 50's many hard core guys that in effect 'over trained' were getting hunched shoulders because of the behaviour of VT...

Having actions (elbows) out in front of the body all the time. Its easy to imagine.

GM Ip had told him he had ajusted CK as one aspect to counter this result (true or not it makes some sence)

I can see over trianing one side more than most giving some an imbalance with muscles and tendons etc but the results would be symetrical if you trained on reverse sides and IMO shouldnt have much effect on internal organs if balanced with a good lifestyle outside training.


It is the realization that applications require the use of both sides AND the fact that MOST people are right handed.

GLW
I personally dont beleive if i begin SLT on the right it will effect my internal organs.
Ive also taught left handers to begin on the right (rather than traditional left) because of your point...and they are still alive and very well - thank heavens -
And i am Bai Si and my Sifu is a CMD caligrapher and VT Sifu Hendrik :)


Internal arts(for the lack of a better word) train the body and mind(yi) very differently from external muscle based arts which depreciates without practice or maintenance.

I used to be of this opinion, but apply your kung fu in a real fight and i think youll find its more muscle based than you think :) :p

The friends that i spar with that do what would be considered muscle based arts, actually have a lot of body mechanics and theory of thier own married with physical training... its not that different in application just training methology IMO.

DREW

[Hendrik]

I know a person who due to his practice of Bak Mei, developed an imbalance in muscular development of one side of his body-specifically, his back muscles. I am not sure whether this developed into more problems, but I do know that he stopped training in that style. It makes sense, however. If your body overdevelops one side of the back muscles, and the spine, nervous system,and meridians connect directly to the organs, an imbalance would manifest in other areas.
As far as Tai-Chi is concerned, I have heard two arguments for the assymetry of the form. One is that the postures are so designed to balance the energy, and another said that once learning the entire set, you learn it on the other side.
The second, although sounds logical, doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint. Why not simply create a symetrical set to begin with? So, I am inclined to go with the first explanation.


In my understanding, Symetrical and simplicity are always favor and safer. If you examine Yi Jing Jing or Emei 12 Zhuang... those stuffs they are symetrical and simple...

[Hendrik]

so unless you are fighting, your not a fighter, so then sure your practices can be 100% healthy. but they arent practices that are creating a fighter. they are just health practices.
.


That is not the ancient chinese martial way.


Without Health there not much one can do.

Not to meantion in the ancient time where pressure points and shock strike being use where it is targeted to the minimum to cut off energy flow. And the martial artist is expect to be able to recover from the damage with thier practice.

The Shao lin has thier ways of strengthen thier body and healing the injury. The Wudang has thier ways......

You know how to damage, you know how to heal. if not then one doesnt have the complete view.



But then how many today train more then 2 hours everyday? without the 2 hours per day minimum how could one even called it for health, not to mention to be a fighter .

Just be realistics, most of us are taking Martial art as Base Ball Cards Fan, beside doing some post, what can one do?

So, sure nothing is applicable. No Shen, No Qi, No imbalance.... because sitting on the sofa and discussing Base Ball Cards cultivate expertise in Base Ball cards but not Shen, Qi....etc.

[Lucas]

i understand the balances between health and martial arts. as well as the relations many of our practices have on our bodies to the postitive. my only point was that, as a fighter, not all of your actions will be based along the holistic health aspect that many martial arts can provide. but just that, if you fight, actually fight, you will have detrimental effects upon your body from the action of fighting. a broken limb for example.

cause and effect essentially was my point. your actions will depend on how healthy your body remains in the long run.

someone who fights constantly, will have more and differing long term issues than those that do not fight.

there are many martial artists that will die never having fought for real a day in their lives.

then there are some that fight on a more regular basis.

each will have very differnt issues with their bodies in old age

[Tom Kagan]

Have you ever considered that the reason may be much simpler...

Most of the routines I know begin with movement to the left...left side twice. For example, Taijiquan often has Grasp Sparrow's Tail only on the right side...but things like Part Horse's Mane is done on both sides..often 3 times with 2 on the left and one on the right. (the modern routines like 24 Posture are more evenly balanced). Routines like Sun Lutang's Taijiquan set have around 60+% of the moves done to the right side. The revamping of that routine got it to something like 55% right and 45% left.

Long Fist sets often begin moving to the left. Such as Tan Tui..where you do odd numbers begin to the left so you always do one more on the left side than the right.... Quite common....

And why....well, it is NOT TCM theory. It is the realization that applications require the use of both sides AND the fact that MOST people are right handed. So, they start with the left to work it first...and to remind the person that the left takes more work because you use it less...

Add all of the other theory onto this...but the fact is that right handedness is the norm and the use of the left hand does NOT come naturally.


How is this any simpler than merely looking at as a proverbial coin toss, as I suggested previously?


Symmetry in TMA is overrated. Heck, besides both the subtle and not so subtle asymmetries in each of the forms of our style, the entire pole form is 100% lopsided if you choose to look at it through the lens of symmetry.

[Liddel]

How is this any simpler than merely looking at as a proverbial coin toss, as I suggested previously?

Symmetry in TMA is overrated. Heck, besides both the subtle and not so subtle asymmetries in each of the forms of our style, the entire pole form is 100% lopsided if you choose to look at it through the lens of symmetry.

Very good point Tom i agree.

This is why i asked Hendrik's opinion (or anyone with the same POV) of the side kick in CK, many schools only practice one side - the right but dont Gum and side kick on the left before Lin Wan Kuen.

A possible answer is it has been changed over time but do we see those that do only one side kick in CK have a derimental effect...?


But then how many today train more then 2 hours everyday? without the 2 hours per day minimum how could one even called it for health, not to mention to be a fighter .

This is a good point to make IMO Hendrik.

I trained a min of 3 hours a day four times a week for 12 odd years and when Sifu tests my pulse he has said i have a liver issue/blockage - thought that was my excessive lifestyle though not practicing VT. :o

Wonder what all day every day would do....

DREW

[Shadow_warrior8]

Thats interesting

IMO,
I would be keen on how to keep the
shoulder nest drawn in, yet soft,
chest soft,
back curved,
head suspended vertically as if from the ceiling.

Using muscular tension is just bad structure for jing, chi, shen. Well to me at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oisUCDAPS_8

In training for Hsing I Santi, even though we do small and big heavenly circulation on both sides, I am taught, left side leading is good for the heart.

http://www.geocities.com/jadedragonalaska/marshmallow.html

WANG SHU-CHIN

A student of the famed Chang Chao-tung on the mainland, Wang's Hsing-i and Pa-kua were orthodox, and machined to perfection. With his bulk, hands the size of small rosebushes, and his surprising speed, the goal of Hsing-i-to occupy the enemies territory-was adroitly done. The internal system stesses the cultivation of chi, deep breathing, and a drastically different approach to the mechanical aspects of fighting ... . like Shao-lin it has many advocates who can withstand with impunity a foot or fist to the midriff. Wang not only has this skill, but can actually use his vast stomach against one's fist on impact so as to produce a broken wrist. Throughout Asia he has been tested , and no one comes close to hurting him. Leading Japanese karate masters have bowed to him after failing on his punch.

But this alone cannot make a fighter. Frank "Cannonball" Richards, the carnival performer, and various other "marshmallow gut" types in the United States have the capability to take a stomach attack. Indeed, Harry Houdini died as a result of his inability with thhis feat. After inefectually Wang's belly once, I asked if he could take a solar plexus strike. "Try it," he said. I did-several times, with no effect. But beyond this special skill Wang could do something beyond the ability of all the fighters I saw. He could take any kick to the lower extremities(excluding, of course the groin). I kicked him repeatedly on his knee, calf, and ankle until my feet ached, all with no effect.

" How do you do it?" I asked.
His answer:"Chi."

Such skils do not connote anything more than defensive ablility. Coupled in Wang, these skills left an attacker only two targets, the head and groin, both very mobile and difficult to hit. But one still might properly ask, could he fight?

He could and did. He has spent much of his time in recent years in Japan and has fought several high-ranking karate men. No one has come close to defeating this seventy-year-old warrior. In the process he has come to a supreme depreciation of karate. He feels that the original forms borrowed from China have been distorted and that the sonsensical high kicks and vigorous body hardening avail nothing when confronted with real technique.

And technique he has. He uses Hsing-i fist with a corkskrew twist from one inch out with more effect than most men get form a full-stance strike. John Bluming, Dutch amateur judo champion and Mas Oyama's prize foreign karateka, even though he had hurt his wrist on Wang's stomach, disparaged him to me once when I was visiting Tokyo. "What else can he do?" asked John. I took John to Wang and asked that he be shown the corkscrew, but to keep it gentle. Wang put his relaxed fingers on Bluming's stomach, curled them into a fist and screwed. Bluming bent ovewr in agony and has since been a believer.

Chinese Boxing, Maters and Methods, by Robert W. Smith, pages 72-74, published by North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, CA, 1974, 1990, ISBN 1-55643-0835-X

[Shadow_warrior8]

八法詠春 小念头(Ba Fa Wingchun, Shil Lim Tao) This master is doing 刨花蓮詠春
Pao Fa Lin Wingchun Kuen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cl0D1zzlFA

There is great emphasis on coiling, wrapping of muscles, shoulder nest work etc...... Nice....

[Vajramusti]

Some nice points. But, Smith was wrong on some things. On Houdini-the common myth is that he died from a solar plexus punch. But Malcolm Forbes the founder of Forbes magazine- published a well rsearched book on famous deaths and myths related to them. The title was something like "They went thata way".According to him Houdini already had an infected appendix
and the punch spread the poison and he died several days later from the ruptured appendix.
Smith doenst think much of wing chun-but he never saw good wing chun and was more familiar with CMA in Taiwan...not post 1949 kung fu in Hong Kong. But, I enjoy his writings because of his flair for writing.
A bengal Tiger

[Tom Kagan]

Very good point Tom i agree.

This is why i asked Hendrik's opinion (or anyone with the same POV) of the side kick in CK, many schools only practice one side - the right but dont Gum and side kick on the left before Lin Wan Kuen.

A possible answer is it has been changed over time but do we see those that do only one side kick in CK have a derimental effect...?

People play golf and tennis well into their golden years in order to stay active and healthy. Health professionals don't typically suggest they need to also learn to swing with their less dominant side in order to prevent "imbalance".

There is a second sidekick elsewhere, but not within ChumKiu. I don't see this inclusion as symmetry, however. It's more like making a matched set.

Peanut butter and jelly go together as a matched set, but don't show symmetry. This matched set is just a convention, anyway. Given a different set of circumstances, convention could have just as likely dictated peanut butter and tuna fish as the set.

[Matrix]

Given a different set of circumstances, convention could have just as likely dictated peanut butter and tuna fish as the set.
Blasphemy!

By the way, is this theoretical, or are you actually making and eating a sandwich? ;)

[Tom Kagan]

Blasphemy!

By the way, is this theoretical, or are you actually making and eating a sandwich? ;)


What? The peanut butter stops the tunafish from falling off the bread. ;)

[Vajramusti]

People play golf and tennis well into their golden years in order to stay active and healthy. Health professionals don't typically suggest they need to also learn to swing with their less dominant side in order to prevent "imbalance".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee trevino- back surgery. Jack Nicklaus(sp?)- hip replacement. Tiger Woods-knee surgery.
For some- soon- golf carts in between holes.
joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

why does SNT train one side at a time, rather than both together? FHSYK does the same thing.

The answer is totally simple and practical; just try this:

1. stand in front of a wall, facing it, pick the point directly in front of your solar plexis, push against it using both hands. You will find you can basically move your elbows/spine/shoulder anywhere and you will still feel stable.

2. push against the same point again, still facing the wall, but this time only with your left hand. While still applying the force, move your left elbow around. You will now realise that there are only a few elbow positions that you can still feel stable and completely balanced, and for every different elbow position your right shoulder/spine will also need to be adjusted and coordinated to achieve good stability.

When you are striking an opponent, the maximum force is applied usually one point only; if your elbow is not in the right position, and your contralateral shoulder and spine are not coordinated, you will not be effective.

By practicing one arm of the time, it helps the beginner integrate and develop structure. That is also why it is necessary to do a good Siu Nim Tao before moving onto Chum Kiu otherwise one will miss out on some very important structure building.

Biu Jee, is another story....

Cheers,
John

[Tom Kagan]

Lee trevino- back surgery. Jack Nicklaus(sp?)- hip replacement. Tiger Woods-knee surgery.
For some- soon- golf carts in between holes.
joy chaudhuri


OTHOOH...

Elites are a different breed. Are you suggesting if they practiced their swing left handed, they wouldn't have injured themselves? ;) Plenty of switch hitters in baseball ended up with injuries, too.

At the end of the day, whether someone takes care of their teeth and also washes their hands regularly will have a far greater proven impact on their long term health and well being than whether their left TanSao is 2 inches off a meridian point compared to their right TanSao while practicing SNT.

:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

People play golf and tennis well into their golden years in order to stay active and healthy. Health professionals don't typically suggest they need to also learn to swing with their less dominant side in order to prevent "imbalance".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee trevino- back surgery. Jack Nicklaus(sp?)- hip replacement. Tiger Woods-knee surgery.
For some- soon- golf carts in between holes.
joy chaudhuri

Pro sports are not healthy and never have been.
Actually, the vast majority of competitive sports have nothing to do with health.

[Vajramusti]

Dont care to follow the zig zagging non sequiturs from wc to golf to brushing teeth.

FWIW IMO- balancing both sides is good for wing chun development. I distinguish between development and application. From balanced development one can have applications on one side or the other as may be quickly needed in a self defense crisis. BTW good pole work IMO development also involves balance development in the body-
one works both sides.
Pointing to the idea of balance is there IMO in all the forms-though approaches in teaching the principles can legitimately vary.
IMO wc can be used for fighting, health or a mix thereof- depends on objectives and details of training.


joy chaudhuri

[bennyvt]

being a strength and conditioning guy and remedial massage i like the rehab side. There are major problems with muscular imbalance. Vt main ones are a curved chest to mostly pushing movements, anterior tilt to the pelvis caused by standing in stance too much. Now the problem comes at the extreme take the forward shoulders this causes shoulder problems, weak rhomboids. Wrecked rouns cuffs etc. The anterior tilt causes tight hamptsings, sciatica etc. This can be fixed by doing the opposite actions until corrected but the thing is some is good for your training so you need to balance it cause any athlete that pushes themself will damage there body. Take marathon women that lord the periods. Football players with bad knees etc. Training is wrecking your body and fixing it so it is surmies next time.

[t_niehoff]

That is not the ancient chinese martial way.


It may not be the "ancient chinese martial way" -- but something being the "ancient chinese martial way" doesn't make that practice sound or useful. The overwhelming evidence supports that the "ancient chinese martial way" isn't good for health or good for developing significant martial/fighting skill.

The ancient chinese (as were the ancient europeans) were ignorant of the way the universe and our bodies really work. They had it wrong.



Without Health there not much one can do.


Athletes are concerned with health as they are concerned with performance.



Not to meantion in the ancient time where pressure points and shock strike being use where it is targeted to the minimum to cut off energy flow. And the martial artist is expect to be able to recover from the damage with thier practice.


Striking "pressure points" is one of those "ancient practices" that has no basis in reality.



The Shao lin has thier ways of strengthen thier body and healing the injury. The Wudang has thier ways......


And neither is particularly good.



You know how to damage, you know how to heal. if not then one doesnt have the complete view.


One doesn't need a "complete view" to develop fighting skill. And if one is concerned with health, it is better to have a view based on reality than crazy, out-dated views/ideas/practices.



But then how many today train more then 2 hours everyday? without the 2 hours per day minimum how could one even called it for health, not to mention to be a fighter .


Perhaps pro fighters need that much training, but not all fighters do. You don't need to be a professional fighter to be a fighter anymore than you need to play pro basketball to be a basketball player.



Just be realistics, most of us are taking Martial art as Base Ball Cards Fan, beside doing some post, what can one do?


You've just summed it up. Thank you. YOU are a "Base Ball Cards Fan". And I agree with you that many are just like you. But "Base Ball Card Fans" aren't baseball players, and nonplayers don't really understand the game, how it is played, how to train, etc. You can only understand the game, how to play, how to train, etc. by actually PLAYING THE GAME and not by playing with your Baseball cards. Base Ball Cards Fans can't teach/train others how to play baseball, they can only teach them to be Base Ball Card Fans.



So, sure nothing is applicable. No Shen, No Qi, No imbalance.... because sitting on the sofa and discussing Base Ball Cards cultivate expertise in Base Ball cards but not Shen, Qi....etc.

Shen, qi, etc. are baseball cards, and cards that have nothing whatsoever to do with fighting skill or health. You can cultivate a fantasy but it won't produce results either for skill or health.

[t_niehoff]

why does SNT train one side at a time, rather than both together? FHSYK does the same thing.

As I see it, the SNT isn't "training" and doesn't (and can't) "train" anything. Practicing fixed movements in the air doesn't develop anything significant. The forms are merely "memorializations".

A better question is: why are the movements represented that way? From my perspective, the answer is: a) for focus and b) because that representation reflects in some way possible usage. The SNT can only be "understood", like everything else, in terms of and from the perspective of application (fighting). You come to "understand" the form through fighting, not "understand" fighting through the form. First application, then dummy (drill), then form. Trying to go the other direction leads only to confusion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Athletes are concerned with health as they are concerned with performance.

Pro atheltes are far less concerned with health than with winning.


Striking "pressure points" is one of those "ancient practices" that has no basis in reality.

Yeah, shots to the jaw, temple, solar plexus, liver, the carotid sinus, occipitcal area,etc, all fantasy.


Nice work Mr.One Sided.
;)

[t_niehoff]

Pro atheltes are far less concerned with health than with winning.


You misunderstand me. A performance-type athlete can't "win" or even compete unless their body performs well. To perform well requires that the athlete is in overall good health. How many athletes are sickly?



Yeah, shots to the jaw, temple, solar plexus, liver, the carotid sinus, occipitcal area,etc, all fantasy.


Hendrik was referring to "pressure points" and that is what I was addressing (and, if you bother to read what I cited, it was Hendrik's notion that shock strikes were to "pressure points" to disrupt "energy flow") . Certainly the body has weak areas and anyone who fights will make use of and try to attack those. But that's very different than "pressure points" (ala Dillman, dim mak, "energy flow"etc.).



Nice work Mr.One Sided.
;)

Thank you, Mr. Reading Comprehension. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You misunderstand me. A performance-type athlete can't "win" or even compete unless their body performs well. To perform well requires that the athlete is in overall good health. How many athletes are sickly?

Not being sickly and being healthy are two different things.
Performance enhancing drugs don't make one sickly, nor do they make them healthy.


Hendrik was referring to "pressure points" and that is what I was addressing (and, if you bother to read what I cited, it was Hendrik's notion that shock strikes were to "pressure points" to disrupt "energy flow") . Certainly the body has weak areas and anyone who fights will make use of and try to attack those. But that's very different than "pressure points" (ala Dillman, dim mak, "energy flow"etc.).


You're answer was generic, something that I have mentioned to you before, you tend to answer specific points with a generic argument.


Thank you, Mr. Reading Comprehension.

You're welcome, Captain Generic.
;)

[t_niehoff]

Not being sickly and being healthy are two different things.
Performance enhancing drugs don't make one sickly, nor do they make them healthy.


You are confusing doing some unhealthy things with not being concerned with health and/or being healthy (you can do some unhealthy things and still be concerned with overall health or be healthy). My point is that as a group, athletes are concerned with their overall health, at the very least insofar as it pertains to their performance abilities.

BTW, as I see it, athlete doesn't mean pro athlete but anyone who adopts an "athletic" lifestyle.



You're answer was generic, something that I have mentioned to you before, you tend to answer specific points with a generic argument.

You're welcome, Captain Generic.
;)

No, my answer wasn't generic, but responded to, referenced, and cited Hendrik's post about "pressure points". If you read my post, you saw this was included and provided the context for what I said. In case you don't remember:

Hendrik wrote: "Not to meantion in the ancient time where pressure points and shock strike being use where it is targeted to the minimum to cut off energy flow. And the martial artist is expect to be able to recover from the damage with thier practice."

And I responded: Striking "pressure points" is one of those "ancient practices" that has no basis in reality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are confusing doing some unhealthy things with not being concerned with health and/or being healthy (you can do some unhealthy things and still be concerned with overall health or be healthy). My point is that as a group, athletes are concerned with their overall health, at the very least insofar as it pertains to their performance abilities.

BTW, as I see it, athlete doesn't mean pro athlete but anyone who adopts an "athletic" lifestyle.

Well, taking your interpretation of "athlete", I tend to agree, though there are many "recreational athletes" out there that place health as secondary to performance or "show".


No, my answer wasn't generic, but responded to, referenced, and cited Hendrik's post about "pressure points". If you read my post, you saw this was included and provided the context for what I said. In case you don't remember:

Hendrik wrote: "Not to meantion in the ancient time where pressure points and shock strike being use where it is targeted to the minimum to cut off energy flow. And the martial artist is expect to be able to recover from the damage with thier practice."

And I responded: Striking "pressure points" is one of those "ancient practices" that has no basis in reality.

If you don't see that as "generic" fine, perhaps "generic" is the wrong word.
You responded to a point made by Hendrick that, in HIS view, pressure point striking were based on what he said, your response was that:
" Striking "pressure points" is one of those "ancient practices" that has no basis in reality."
Not that HIS view has no base on reality, but that striking certain points of the body, like "ancient" MA tells us to, has no basis on reality.
Now, take into account that MANY TMA do not view vital point strikes in Hendricks way, that response was "overly generalized".
At least to me.

[Hendrik]

For some , The question is simple, the facts from the ancient China is also straight forward. From the facts there lay the results.

For some, it is endless arguments without having a clue of what is going on.

[t_niehoff]

For some , The question is simple, the facts from the ancient China is also straight forward. From the facts there lay the results.


The only FACT is that the ancient chinese believed these things. Modern science has proved that their beliefs were false. Of course, there are still people, who for various reasons, cling onto those beliefs, just like others cling onto astrology, etc.

Of course, you could prove all of modern science wrong, prove me wrong, etc., by proving that this sort of "training" develops fighting skills to a high degree (you called it "advanced martial art", right?). Just fight some proven good fighters and show your "pressure point striking" and short power strikes working. In other words, show that YOU can do those things you train to do in fighitng against decent opposition. We all know, however, that YOU can't do that and neither can ANYONE who trains that nonsense. It's all a fantasy.

On the other hand, we can see what sort of things do work, what does produce high levels of skills, etc. The evidence is before us. All we need to do is look and stop believing in fantasy.



For some, it is endless arguments without having a clue of what is going on.

Yes, it's true. But I keep hoping you'll get that clue. :)

[Hendrik]

The only FACT is that the ancient chinese believed these things. Modern science has proved that their beliefs were false. .........

But I keep hoping you'll get that clue. :)


Thanks.

Yes, It does tell the world who you really are isnt it?