Forget about all the kungfu theories

[jack]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzUwNzk2OTY=.html

[Lucas]

i have no sound and cannot read the language. what exactly happened there. was that a taser or a pistol?

[solidtux]

I translated the video title using Ubiquity and this is what I got:

Russia's largest supermarket melee heavy security KO World War thieves live video

So I'm assuming one of the groups were the security guys in the supermarket and the other guys were the thieves. But I'm not sure.

[Lucas]

lol cool thanks. makes a lot more sense now.

[jack]

It seem like the unchange formula in a fight is still punches + kicking + grappling.
:p

[AdrianK]

Don't forget the flying knee to a downed opponent :D

[Hardwork108]

Don't forget the flying knee to a downed opponent :D

That is what I like about some of the Eastern European countries. When it comes to hoodlums the good guys are allowed to take the bull by the b@lls and break their faces without worrying about hypocritical human rights legislation, PC. etc.

Those security people knew how to fight(probably ex-soldiers) and they looked very competent.

I believe that a couple of minutes intense beating can do a lot more to change a criminal´s behavior than years of expensive rehabilitation.;)

[Hardwork108]

...was that a taser or a pistol?


I could be wrong but knowing the Eastern European approach then it was most probably a pistol and don´t make a mistake, because most probably that man would have fired if provoked.

[taai gihk yahn]

almost definitely a revolver of some sort - tasers have that boxey look, and from what I know about life over there, the mentality just wouldn't support the use of a taser anyway;

[Hardwork108]

It seem like the unchange formula in a fight is still punches + kicking + grappling.
:p

....All of which are present inside most kung fu styles. ;)

[taai gihk yahn]

There is hope for mankind yet. Just two lines in the post without detailed explanation of what a revolver is made of; how it works as opposed to a taiser and of course a genetic profiling of the various East European races detailing DNA make up.

I must say, I am rather impressed!:D

apparently that hope is not to be uniformly applied to all of mankind across the board...

but keep going - it's glaringly apparent that you just can't help yourself, that sarcasm as a form of "communication" is something that just happens reflexively with you - and we all know where that got you once; and will eventually get you there again, amigo...

[Hardwork108]

apparently that hope is not to be uniformly applied to all of mankind across the board...

but keep going - it's glaringly apparent that you just can't help yourself, that sarcasm as a form of "communication" is something that just happens reflexively with you - and we all know where that got you once; and will eventually get you there again, amigo...

Sheesh! the guy can´t even take a joke!

I am sorry, Ok.

I deleted my post, are you happy now?

A yes or a no will do, thank you!

HW8
PS. "amigo"? Did I see racist conotations there?;)

[taai gihk yahn]

Sheesh! the guy can´t even take a joke!
if it were a joke, I'd take it just fine; if we were "friends" (you know, like I am with all those mentally-challenged G.K's you love to go on and on about), I'd actually be the first to laugh (and agree); but it's not - it's exactly what you think, it's not out of some sense of bon homie; and that's fine, whatever; but anyway, please, continue...


I am sorry, Ok.
don't be sorry - I personally don't care - in fact, please, keep doing it - it will only hasten your eventual re-departure; remember, you're the one who got banned once for your style of posting, so go ahead, dig your own hole - dig like the wind!


deleted my post, are you happy now? A yes or a no will do, thank you!
again, I don't really care;


PS. "amigo"? Did I see racist conotations there?;)
see whatever you like there, hombre...

[Hardwork108]

if it were a joke, I'd take it just fine; if we were "friends" (you know, like I am with all those mentally-challenged G.K's you love to go on and on about), I'd actually be the first to laugh (and agree);

And you are the one who called me an "amigo".:confused:


but it's not - it's exactly what you think, it's not out of some sense of bon homie; and that's fine, whatever; but anyway, please, continue...


don't be sorry - I personally don't care - in fact, please, keep doing it - it will only hasten your eventual re-departure; remember, you're the one who got banned once for your style of posting, so go ahead, dig your own hole - dig like the wind

again, I don't really care;


see whatever you like there, hombre...

I knew asking you for a simple yes or no answer wouldn´t do it.

Anyway, I deleted my post in your honor and apologized so there.

[taai gihk yahn]

And you are the one who called me an "amigo".:confused:
LOL - you are too funny;


I knew asking you for a simple yes or no answer wouldn´t do it.
Anyway, I deleted my post in your honor and apologized so there.
hoorah for you, muchacho!

[Hardwork108]

LOL - you are too funny;



hoorah for you, muchacho!

"Muchacho"? Wow, that makes me feel years younger. Thank you and congratulations, you really know your therapy.:D

[jack]

....All of which are present inside most kung fu styles. ;)

how many kung fu masters will really fight like a kung fu master? :confused:

Those security guys fought well. I think boxing, kickboxing, bjj , muay thai are more useful in such fights.:p

[Hardwork108]

how many kung fu masters will really fight like a kung fu master? :confused:

The real ones!


Those security guys fought well. I think boxing, kickboxing, bjj , muay thai are more useful in such fights.:p

That is a very general statement.

Real kung fu is also very useful in such fights unfortunately most "kung fu-ists" nowadays don´t know REAL kung fu.;)

BECAUSE:

A. REAL kung fu instruction is difficult to come by.

B. REAL kung fu mastery takes a lot longer than the other arts that you have mentioned.

[Lucas]

drilled correctly, a kungfu guy can apply his basics in a relatively short amount of time. no, he would not be displaying a high level of understanding of his particular cma in a fight, but you can get a guy off the line and able to defend himself with punches, kicks, and throws pretty quick. as quickly as with any other martial art mentioned. unless you dont engrain the basics and conditioning first....

[Hardwork108]

drilled correctly, a kungfu guy can apply his basics in a relatively short amount of time. no, he would not be displaying a high level of understanding of his particular cma in a fight, but you can get a guy off the line and able to defend himself with punches, kicks, and throws pretty quick. as quickly as with any other martial art mentioned. unless you dont engrain the basics and conditioning first....

Traditionalists believe that without roots you don´t have kung fu. To develop kung fu roots it takes a long time. If you get a guy to use kung fu techniques effectively without roots, in a short time, is to get him to fight effectively(using kicks and punches) as a glorified kickboxer and not a genuine kung fu exponent!

[Lucas]

so 800 years ago when a man began training under his sifu, and was forced to defend himself within the first few years, and does so succesfully using the foundation he has been building, he is a glorified kickboxer huh?

funny, that. didnt know there was glorified kick boxers back then. just men who had a certain level of understanding of their arts. whether that be large or small, mastered or not.

seems to me he would have just been able to apply what foundation he has been working on.

of course this DOES depend on who you talk to.

even traditionalists can view this particual circumstance very differently. not everyone is of the same exact mindset.

the skill one has attained over time through hard work would be evident in ones actions, regardless of the amount of skill one has attained.

i agree that within a short amount of time one cannot master, ANYTHING, but i disagree that one is simply a 'glorified kickboxer' if they can apply their material after just a few years of training. as long as they understand the 'what' 'how' and 'why' of what they are doing, they are on the right track.

its people who dont understand their currently learned material that are the 'glorified kickboxers' you speak of.

one can build a certain extent of a foundation within a given amount of time, and if trained correctly, self motivation being required to give the effort to understand what they are learning, one can indeed 'know' what they are doing. even if it is only the basics.

[jack]

Bruce Lee used to be CMA guy too. He knew many CMAs.
But why did he gave them up & created JKD? :confused:

People who learn boxing, kickboxing, bjj, muay thai, karate also take years to perfect their skills too but it only take them a few months or perhaps a few weeks to put their arts into actual use.:rolleyes:

[Lucas]

i wouldnt say so much that BL gave up his cma, but rather incorporated what he found to be usefull into his JKD.

but point well made, he drew what he found to be effecient and effective from any source that held such material.

i think that if you cannot begin to apply your basics pretty quickly, regardless of your chosen style, your training has a fault somewhere within it.

[Hardwork108]

so 800 years ago when a man began training under his sifu, and was forced to defend himself within the first few years, and does so succesfully using the foundation he has been building, he is a glorified kickboxer huh?

Don´t assume that kung fu training 800 years ago was anything like it is today, specially in the West. Your fighting skills then could mean the difference between life and death.

From what I know the people did not train for a couple of hours, two or three times a week after work. Assuming that they had a real kung fu master (and not one of our forum´s "kung fu gods") teaching in the first place, and trained hard (perhaps in ways that would get your sifu sued nowadays) the varilus aspects including Iron Palm, Iron Fist, Iron Body,etc.


i agree that within a short amount of time one cannot master, ANYTHING, but i disagree that one is simply a 'glorified kickboxer' if they can apply their material after just a few years of training. as long as they understand the 'what' 'how' and 'why' of what they are doing, they are on the right track.

You misunderstand. A glorified kickboxer is one who dables in kung fu but mixes other arts such as bjj, Muy Thai, boxing to his curriculum without having built a firm foundation and understanding in kung fu. Meaning that he is using a Hybrid system that may of course work for him but it is NOT kung fu!!!


its people who dont understand their currently learned material that are the 'glorified kickboxers' you speak of.

Of course not. You could be a kung fu beginner with one year of experience in an authentic school and that would put you ahead (as far as purity/authenticity and even understanding is concerned) of most of the MMA "kung fu masters" here in the forums.

Lack of experience does not make you a glorified kickboxer. It is lack of understanding and that comes from training in non-authentic schools and or mixing irrelevant MAs to your curriculum.

And if as a beginner you decide to "complete" your kung fu training by practicing other irrelevant arts (as encouraged by some of this forums kung fu "experts") then that will, more likely than not, turn your kung fu into Glorified Kickboxing.


one can build a certain extent of a foundation within a given amount of time, and if trained correctly, self motivation being required to give the effort to understand what they are learning, one can indeed 'know' what they are doing. even if it is only the basics.

In the light of what I said before in this post you will by now know that I agree with your statement above.:)

[Hardwork108]

Bruce Lee used to be CMA guy too.
His "foundation" was CMA.


He knew many CMAs.

As far as I am aware he did not MASTER any style of CMA, not even Wing Chun!


But why did he gave them up & created JKD? :confused:

He gave up and created JKD probably because he found kung fu lacking in certain areas, rather like some of the "kung fu" crosstrainers here in the forum who have not understood let alone mastered any single system of CMA but yet are too ready to badmouth Chinese Kung Fu and point out its "flaws".;)


People who learn boxing, kickboxing, bjj, muay thai, karate also take years to perfect their skills too but it only take them a few months or perhaps a few weeks to put their arts into actual use.:rolleyes:

Your statement applies more to boxing, kickboxing,bjj,muay thai and some styles of karate( such as kyokushin) than it does for most major styles of kung fu, that by design take longer to learn.

Of course, there is always San Da for those who can´t wait.;)

[Kansuke]

For goodness sakes, this 'hardwork' character does nothing but repeat the same agenda over and over and over and over and over and over and over...


Even he must tire of it at some point!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

don't be sorry - I personally don't care - in fact, please, keep doing it - it will only hasten your eventual re-departure; remember, you're the one who got banned once for your style of posting, so go ahead, dig your own hole - dig like the wind!


Uh, isn't it Run Like The Wind? Wow, for someone so cerebral, you should need help with your Metaphors....

[taai gihk yahn]

Uh, isn't it Run Like The Wind? Wow, for someone so cerebral, you should need help with your Metaphors....

actually, there was this sitcom on Fox back in the '90's called Good Grief (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqTR13HM8MI) w/Howie Mandel as the off-beat director of a funeral home; at one point he had his assistant, Raul, exhume a corpse wrongly buried (or somesuch), and I just remember him calling out, "Dig like the wind, Raul!"; hence my oxymoronic-like metaphor...

so, there it is :D

[jack]

Wing Chun used to simple, direct & practical but it has changed a lot now.
That's why leong Ting also tried to absorbed quite a bit from bjj, muay thai, boxing & of course other CMAs & later changed his WT into something else different from traditional Wing Chun. Bruce Lee doesn't need to complete his Wing Chun study.

Attend Ted Wong's seminar if you had a chance. Some had tried Wing Chun on him before & it didn't worked on him.

In China, Taiwan or Hong Kong, many had turned to san da, muay thai, tkd, bjj, mma etc instead of traditional CMAs. Of course, there are still some good CMAs fighters but they are getting rare nowsadays. They are also afraid of muay thay, mma, bjj fighters too.

Here is a clip of two CMA masters fought in a competition. They had learn their arts since youth. Judging from the way they fought, it looks like boxing & street fighting.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0sKUGgXp4

[taai gihk yahn]

oh man - that fight has been hashed and rehashed to death around here and is nothing more than an example of how two people perform when they have obviously never actually fought full contact against a resisting opponent; the skill level of both was abysmal and embarrassing; end of story

[aktionmancer]

oh man - that fight has been hashed and rehashed to death around here and is nothing more than an example of how two people perform when they have obviously never actually fought full contact against a resisting opponent; the skill level of both was abysmal and embarrassing; end of story

+1

also, this thread seems like itll turn into another style vs style or style vs practitioner threads.

[Lokhopkuen]

Doesn't Kung Fu translate as "Hard Work"?:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Doesn't Kung Fu translate as "Hard Work"?:rolleyes:

Of course it does and by implication translates"a Long Attention Span", as well. :D

[Hardwork108]

Wing Chun used to simple, direct & practical but it has changed a lot now.
That's why leong Ting also tried to absorbed quite a bit from bjj, muay thai, boxing & of course other CMAs & later changed his WT into something else different from traditional Wing Chun.

Leong Ting is a kung fu master and a businessman. He will add and take away anything to and from his Wing Chun, or Tsun as the case may be, to make it more marketable.


Bruce Lee doesn't need to complete his Wing Chun study.

Bruce Lee was one of those rare human beings who had a strong warrior spirit, dedication and intelligence to improve his abilities towards a combative end. That means that he could have beaten you up with ballet techniques. However, that does not and never made him a kung fu master nor an authority on kung fu and its supposed shortcomings.


Ted Wong's seminar if you had a chance. Some had tried Wing Chun on him before & it didn't worked on him.
That statement is not significant. Who tried WC techniques on him? From what lineage were they? How long had they practiced? Were they really trying to hurt him? Was it a challenge match?


In China, Taiwan or Hong Kong, many had turned to san da, muay thai, tkd, bjj, mma etc instead of traditional CMAs.

And many haven´t!

However this modern phenomenom is related to the fact that people have lower attention spans when training martial arts. This means that they want higher results in a shorter time and here you will get no arguments from me because you will get quicker results from all the MAs you have mentioned above.


Of course, there are still some good CMAs fighters but they are getting rare nowsadays.
Not as rare as you may think but rarer than MT, BJJ etc.


They are also afraid of muay thay, mma, bjj fighters too.
That is not a correct assumption. Maybe you have been reading too many posts by this forums know nothing knuckleheads?:p


Here is a clip of two CMA masters fought in a competition. They had learn their arts since youth. Judging from the way they fought, it looks like boxing & street fighting.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0sKUGgXp4

These aren´t masters! They may have had a reputation as masters and maybe they were masters of kung fu forms. In my book masters of kung fu know how to fight. I have met a few who can fight!