NEW YORK CITY MANTIS SCHOOL

[magnatron]

HAS ANY ONE HEARD OF A TONY CHUY IN MANHATTAN? I AM THINKING OF POSSIBLY JOINING HIS SCHOOL, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOWW IF ANYBODY HAS SEEN HIM AND IS HE GOOD? I REALLY WANT TO LEARN THE MANTIS SYSTEM THANKS IN ADVANCE TO ALL

I AM THE SEEKER OF LOST SOULS

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Tony Chuy is one of the best instructors I have ever met. If you are looking to learn mantis he is the man you should study under. He has a very well thought out and thorough training method. I've never seen anything like it. I highly recommend him.
~ETB

"Someone I once flattered in a book thinks he owes me nothing. Oh, the trash I have for friends." ~Martial

[magnatron]

MANY THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY,DO YOU KNOW IF HE TEACHES ONE TO FIGHT USING THE TECHNIQES IN THE FORMS OR IS IT ALL LIKE THE KICKBOXING THAT ONE SEES DONE IN ALMOST ALL THE SCHOOLS?

I AM THE SEEKER OF LOST SOULS

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Don't worry, no kick boxing bs here. He only teaches techniques from the forms. One learns trapping, takedowns and all. Advance levels do free sparring. I'm telling you. This is the place to go.
~ETB

"Someone I once flattered in a book thinks he owes me nothing. Oh, the trash I have for friends." ~Martial

[MantisBoxer]

Magnatron:

Mr. Chuy does not teach fighting, I know personally 2 former students of Mr. Chuy who left him because of the simple fact that they didn't learn any sparring. One stuedent trained with Mr. Chuy for 6 1/2 years the other for 3 years and during that time, they never sparred.

There are two other very good Sifu's in New York that have a great reputation for SPARRING, they really do teach their students how to fight and I mean how to fight. They use all their traditional classical mantis techniques, not just drills, but actually sparring.

One of the Sifu's I know very well cause I have had the honor to play hands with him and he is amazing with his mantis fighting, his name is Sifu Raul Ortiz, the other I have not had the pleasure or the honor to play hands with him, but I have seen him fight, he is also great. His name is Sifu Carl Albright.

These two Sifu's have all their students fight at tournaments, but I have to say that I have never ever witness any of Mr. Chuy's students fight in any tournament ever given, in NY, MD, TX, CA etc.

If you are interested in learning from these two gentlemen, I suggest before you join any school check them out and talk to them. Sifu Ortiz's school is located in Bethpage, Long Island which is only about 45 minutes from the City, and Sifu Albright's school is located in Brooklyn, which is also about 45 minutes from the City.

What's great about these two Sifu's is that they come from the same family lineage Chiu Chi Man, I do have Sifu Ortiz's phone # (516)942-4025 he is my training brother under Master Lee Kam Wing, I don't have Sifu Albright's phone # but I'm sure you can get it from the phone co., or maybe one of his students might be able to post it. He trains under Master Chiu Leun my Sifu's training brother.

Good luck in your search. By the way I'm not saying that Mr. Chuy doesn't know mantis, I'm saying he doesn't teach sparring.

Good Luck
MB

[BeiTangLang]

Just because a school does not participate in half-@ssed "sparring" at tournaments, do not be confused that they do not fight.....a mistake that can get you into trouble. That goes for any school.
Just a thought,
-BTL

"Eat bitter & you will taste bitter."

[Young Mantis]

MantisBoxer,

Just because those two students did not learn sparring does not mean Sifu Tony Chuy does not teach it at all. I study with Sifu Chuy and have taken many sparring classes with him, not just the two-man drills but actual sparring.

The philosophy at our school is that the student must know and understand enough of the style before they can learn how to spar with it. We commonly do not allow students to spar until they have reached at least Intermediate level. However, the time it takes for a student to reach that level varies with each individual and it very well could be that the students you speak of were not deemed ready for mantis sparring classes with Sifu. In fact, I can probably even guess which students you are referring to and yes, after 6.5 years, unfortunately he was not ready for it.

Sifu also does not teach just anyone who comes to the school simply because they are willing to pay tuition. The students are screened for character and then must train with him for some length of time to gain his trust to learn the more advanced applications. However, starting at the beginner level and throughout our training, students are taught two-man drills to begin developing sensitivity, distancing, timing, and reflex, all of which are very important skills for fighting.

If you have any other questions about our school or our method of training, feel free to either write to the school's address at info@northernmantis.com or to me.

Young Mantis

[Tiger_Fighter]

Although not a mantis practitioner myself. I know and have trained with Mr. Chuy. I can say without any hesitation that he is the best teacher I have ever had. And let me be clear that when I say teacher I mean more than one who teachers the MA. Being a part of his school, not only do you learn Praying Mantis. But you also learn throughly about the history, lineage, culture of the system and people(as you should with any school)Not to mention the occasionaly chinese etiquette. Mr Chuy is more than a MA teacher, he represents the Asian culure,people and the Tong Long system at its finest. As for the fighting aspect....If you are contemplating joining the school in hopes of competeing in TOURNAMENTS. Save yourself the time. Mr. Chuy doesnt teach tournament fighting/ers. He teaches the Praying Mantis system in its entirety. I would hope that the difference between the two is understood.
As with anything do your research. And I hope that you chose the school that is best suited for you, magnatron. GOOD LUCK!!

[baji-fist]

I too have heard good things about Tony Chuy. I would go over there and decide on your own if you like his class or not. Another person you may want to check out is Su Yu Chang. He teaches five styles of mantis (7 star, eight step, mei hua, six harmony, and closed door mantis). Along with mantis he also teaches Bajiquan, Piquazhang, Yin Fu baguazhang, and Taijiquan. Here is his website if you have time to check it out: http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[taichi108]

Magnatron, I agree with Baji-fist. Go there and check it out. Everything a have been told by my older Kung Fu brothers is positive. He teaches traditional Seven Star Mantis. You have to decide if the school is right for you. If you want to do sparring right away there are schools who dwell on that.


Good luck with your search.


Steve M.

[ShaolinMantis]

Chuy Sisuk
Trained under Bendan Lai & Chiu Chuk Kai
He teaches 7 Star and Taiji Mantis

[Laughing Buddha]

As someone who has participated in a number of free-sparring classes, I must disagree with those who claim that Mr. Chuy doesn't teach sparring. He does, but only when you have reached a certain level. Some of the moves must be drilled into the student so that the first rush of adrenaline doesn't blow the knowledge away and reduce the student to that of a common bar brawler. If you cannot fight with Mantis consistently, then what is the point of learning Mantis? Might as well hang out in rough bars and pick up fighting tips there, right?

To quote William Shakespeare, "there is method to his madness." He starts off with drills as Young Mantis says. A lot of junior students may find this boring and repetitive but this is the beginning to learning to fight with Mantis. Like a boxer who first learns to jab, he must also learn to move along with learning to jab, all without tripping over his own feet or tangling up his arms while executing his moves. You may laugh but this doesn't come naturally to some people. And some people who think they're coordinated actually aren't. The abovementioned drills get more and more intricate until you can do them in your sleep, almost.

As others have said, Mr. Chuy has a well formulated lesson plan and he doesn't do things willy-nilly nor does he rush things. His knowledge of Mantis and weapons is extensive and not just on the physical side of things either. Compared to other schools, his school may be more formal but you learn Mantis and its applications, provided you have the patience and the humility. It took me a long time before the lightbulb lit up in my head but light up it did. And I still have a long way to go before I can truly say I even understand Mantis one-quarter way. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. And another...and another...

A "Laughing Budda" or "Dai Tao Fut" is usually found cavorting in front of and leading the lion(s) in a Southern Lion Dance troupe.

* I speak for myself and not for my Si Fu nor kwoon, so any errors I make are mine alone.›

[Brad]

Hey Baji-fist! I just went to Su Yu Chang's website and took a look at the mantis clip. I couldn't really see a lot of detail but I absolutely love the way he moves! What style of mantis is that? Is it just a combination of mantis styles?

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Well, I was all prepared to make a response to Mantis Boxers reply but it is not necessary now. It is obvious from the overwhelming response that Mr. Chuy is a good teacher and that he does in fact teach real fighting methods. As stated above, competitions mean nothing. Learning to fight to compete is neglecting a huge chunk of techniques. It also limits one to the rules in the given tournament. As far as comparing Mr. Ortiz's training methods and Mr. Chuy's....well, I was a student of Mr. Ortiz but left because of the fact that sparring was taught too soon. I didn't feel I had enough understanding of the style to effectively use it in a fighting situation. I started to study with Mr. Chuy because he drills the basics, forms and techniques before sparring is even considered. This, like Young Mantis has said is the only way to effectively use mantis in combat or sparring. Otherwise one will just look like a kick boxer.

~ETB

"Someone I once flattered in a book thinks he owes me nothing. Oh, the trash I have for friends." ~Martial

[Ericsepishii]

I would like to thank and add on to the
posts provided by Young Mantis, Tiger_Fighter
and Laughing Buddha. Thanks guys.

I personally know Sifu Tony Chuy and can
state that he knows how to fight utilizing
Northern Praying Mantis. He has received
"fighting training" from both Mantis Masters
Brendan Lai and Chu Chuk Kai.

As to teaching Sparring in his school,
there are different methods of "sparring".

What one thinks of as the type of
"Sparring or Fighting" that one can
take into those so called tournaments,
NO HE DOES NOT OFFER THIS TYPE OF TRAINING.
Most of these types of "fighting" tournaments
are not structured in a manner whereby all the
Northern Mantis techniques can be utilized
and to limit what techniques can or cannot be
utilized is a severe disadvantage to the mantis
person, unless the person's skill level/training
was/is really high level.

There exist other MA schools that have
special curriculum / training for fighting
tournaments, and in some / many cases
what is taught is not stictly the MA
that is being taught in class but rather
a mix of various other arts, such as kickboxing,
boxing, take down moves and maybe some of the
particular style's movements thrown in, etc...

However, what is offered as previously mentioned
are the two man drills and two person fist sets,
which can be played in different manners.

First is where you learn the motion(s) and
get use to doing this with a partner.

Then as you increase your knowledge and skill
level re: understanding the movement(s),
sensitivity; speed with focus, clarity and
proper power; ability with fah jing; etc...
one can increase the speed of doing these two
person forms.

Then as you get past this stage, when you do
you two person forms (this is with the
understanding that you have been practicing
with a specific partner) the two of you
can go to the next (higher) level of training,
which is to do the techniques / forms as though
you were really fighting / trying to hit
your opponent and your opponent has to
react / block - utilizing the established
techniques as related to the particular
form - which also requires a higher level
of skill.

If the "attacker" has higher skill level
than the "defender", the defender will get hit
and visa-versa.

Obtaining this "higher skill level" may take
less than 6.5 yrs, it may take more than 6.5 yrs.
It all depends on one's training (at school and
at home), attitude, understanding and abilities.

Sorry for the long winded post.

[BeiTangLang]

Magnatron, there you have it. The respected opinions of several members of the Mantis community saying that Sifu Chuy is a legitimate authentic instructor.
Ericsepishii,Young Mantis, Tiger_Fighter, and Laughing Buddha, thank you for replying as well. Your posts were quite informative as to what
Sifu Chuy offers and supports at his Kwoon.
Respectfully,
BTL

"Eat bitter & you will taste bitter."

[MantisBoxer]

First of all to the entire list on this post!
I was not reffering to tournament fighting, I was talking about using your mantis skills for street survival.

I mentioned tournaments cause usually that is the place where you can go and play your skills in a safe environment. I do agree that tournaments do make you a fighter, but you can still test your skills.

The problem with lost of kungfu practitioners in general is, the lack of testing their skills outside from their kwoon and it could be due to lots of different circumstances, one being "SCARED" "NOT TRUSTING THEIR OWN SKILLS" etc.

By no means did I mean to offened Mr. Chuy, or any of his students, that was not my intentions, but mainly to educate magnatron in doing some research of all mantis schools before he just runs into the first one he sees.

I do strongly believe that no style of martial arts should take 6 or more years before you can learn how to fight, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Most people that join a martial arts school do it to learn self defense. If they have to wait 6 or more years to learn how to fight, they might as well buy a gun, don't you think.

Now I don't want to get into a disscussion about theory and concepts here about the style or how your teacher teaches. But the problem here is that a lot of schools just BS the people that come to learn about all this mystical BS.

There is no mysticism in mantis, either your Sifu teaches you how to use it or he doesn't period. Again I never said that Mr. Chuy didn't know how to fight, he might, I have never seen him fight and I don't care.

But let's not BS the people in this forum with thinking that all the other Sifu's especially the ones that I mentioned only teach tournament fighting, because thats a MISTAKE THAT CAN GET YOU IN TROUBLE.

These Sifu's just happen to like and test their own skills and have their students test their skills in a friendly environment, thats all, which is more then I can say for a lot of other Sifu's.

Whether you like it or not, don't knock it if you have not tried it. I'm the first to say, yes tournament fighting doesn't make you a fighter, but what a great way to have fun!.

MB

[BeiTangLang]

My thoughts on this:

"Obtaining this "higher skill level" may take less than 6.5 yrs, it may take more than 6.5 yrs. It all depends on one's training (at school and at home), attitude, understanding and abilities."

Is what was said, not "before one can learn to spar" & I fully agree. Some people do not have the patients to learn nor the mental stability needed for a MA like tang-lang. Some instructor would rather not give a murderer an advanced weapon....some people do not care whom they teach as long as they are paid.
Trust me when I say, I under-estemate no one regardless of if/how they train/spar or fight. I always asume that they are of much greater skill than I & try to avoid conflict.
I have yet to see a "mystical" school, so I do not know what you are talking about. If you are speaking towards building inner strength on the other hand, then I still say its not mystical.
I do agree with you that sparring is fun, but I just believe that greater care should be taken to teach good form before free sparring occurs in a kwoon.
Anyway, best of luck to Magantron in his search & to all of you in your respective searches whatever they may be.
--
BT

"Eat bitter & you will taste bitter."

[mantis7]

Eight_Triagram_Boxer

no to make this a flame but I am also a fighter of the ortiz school I am one of the seniors and I also taught a majority of the classes and I know I never had anyone fight before it was time.... Do you mind saying who you are.. I taught and trained at the south bronx school... Moat of our students were good fighters and we didnt only practice san shou we also did free sparring ( continuos sparring) full contact, We touched hands with out gloves with mantis techniques only, we were a fighting school and it was told of the back and I know for a fact those who wanted to fight was permmited to go at it in the begining to get the feel for it no one was ever forced to do so.....

Now if you trained with sifu during that period or before at the unionport school please let me know...

Victor

Ps if you know me then you know I can get down with my mantis ( no kick boxing here ) also with my thai boxing

If you are one of my seniors Then let me know also and for those out there Ortiz sifu only has 14 seniors students Gil eddie eddie v earl Mr B
diana chaz danny myself ryan the last 3 escape me right now.. But if you are from the portchester time or further please excuse me ...... nut I am assuming you trained at unionport or elton school

[mantisk]

I’ve been studying the Praying Mantis system under sifu Chuy for over five years now. Before I joined my school I’ve visited many different schools and spoke to a lot of teachers about their styles and how long they’ve been teaching and how they conduct their classes and whether or not they, themselves, teach the beginner level and not just the advanced level only.

To me, Kung Fu is more than just fighting or tournament fighting all together. I’ve always believed that when practicing kung fu one should keep in mind that martial arts, altogether, was developed for self defense as well as maintaining and improving one’s health.

Throughout my life I’ve always looked for genuine teachers rather than ones whose lineages are questionable. I think that my sifu’s skills and knowledge can represent the praying mantis system.

Sifu Chuy is the first to be authorized to teach the praying mantis system under Grandmaster Brendan Lai whom was one of twenty plus students authorized to teach under the late Grandmaster Wong Hong Fahn. Additionally, my sifu has studied the Tai Chi mantis style, in Hong Kong, under the late Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai for many years and was given the permission to teach before he died.

In our school we do sparring only when a student reaches a certain level and has met certain requirements such as forms, two man forms and two man drills, sahn sao and reflex & sensitivity training.
Sifu Chuy does not teach tournament fighting, point fighting nor kickboxing but instead emphasizes applying mantis techniques, strategies and the theories passed down from our ancestors.

If you’re looking to learn how to fight right away, our school is definitely NOT the place to come to. However If you are looking for traditional mantis fighting that was passed down by our ancestors of the style I would recommend you to come by and check out the school or go to: www.northernmatis.com (http://www.northernmantis.com) for more information.

Hope this clears up any questions you may have.

Mantisk

[This message was edited by mantisk on 12-06-00 at 03:31 PM.]

[This message was edited by mantisk on 12-06-00 at 03:32 PM.]

[Laughing Buddha]

Without going into a lengthy discussion about theory and concepts, the bottom line is that if one cannot instinctively (i.e. without thinking, not even for a split second) execute a Mantis strike and/or a chain of Mantis strikes and blocks to suit the situation, then one is not using Mantis. As such, allowing a person to "go in swinging from day one" because they're eager to "get into the thick of things" is something my Sifu, Tony Chuy, doesn't allow. After all, the student might get in a lucky strike and tag you, but what has he learned of Mantis? Nothing, except that without Mantis, he has tagged you. Or, if you're quick enough to defend yourself using Mantis, what has he learned about Mantis? Again nothing, except that you executed a series of movements which he couldn't follow but his attack was parried as a consequence and you've tagged him. If he's an exceptional person with great command of his body, he might have picked up, maybe, 40% of what you did at speed and could perhaps imitate you badly without knowing the principles behind the technique. Net result: Student learns nothing.

You're right: There is nothing mystical about learning to fight. And the time taken to truly master the style is long because nowadays, most of us lead very sedentary lives with very sedentary jobs. How many of you have filled up the water jars in your house from the village well a mile or more down the road nowadays? Or swung your scythe to harvest the grain you're growing in your fields, thus building up your waist power and forearms? Or chopped down a tree to shape the wood which you'll use to build the extension to your hut and also the muscles in your upper back and arms? No one, I think. We also only practice a couple of hours a week. The very dedicated might practice two or three hours a day, seven days a week. But this is still nothing compared to how much the people of ages past practiced. How many of you can do one-hour long continuous low horse stances? I can't. But the ancients did as a matter of routine. Impatience is the hallmark of present day civilization. Everybody wants everything NOW. That is the main problem. As for buying a gun, do you think that you would know where the safety was if you'd never to uched a gun in your life, never watched a video, never read about it and had no instructor? Would you know how to release the ammunition clip in an automatic, any automatic? How to reload the clip so that it won't jam on you? Or when it jams, how to clear that jam without shredding your hands or rendering the gun inoperable? Where to put your thumb so that the recoil won't sprain it when firing heavier calibre firearms? And even if you know all the above, can you put all ten or fifteen rounds within a 2 centimeter grouping on target on your first-ever try even in a non-combat gun range? The answer to all these questions is no. Modern conveniences (and the gun is one of them) reduce the time needed to learn and do complicated things. And even they require practice. But our bodies, unfortunately, still haven't reached that stage. We believe that there are no short cuts. Yet. When the day comes that a genetically engineered knowledge virus can be used to infect our bodies with all the knowledge that we want an d need, then yes, you can go from "zero to hero" in a short time. Currently, you still can't get the knowledge equivalent to a Ph.D. without having gone through grade, middle and high schools and at least a bachelor's degree. Even geniuses need at least fifteen or so years from 1st grade to Ph.D. but it leaves them largely socially maladjusted (i.e. there's a heavy price to pay).

I apologize for the rather verbose post but if other teachers think that they can produce effective fighters in the Mantis style in shorter time, then I say more power to them. But I know that my Sifu, Tony Chuy, will not do this and I will thank those who use other techniques to not arbitrarily label his methods "BS". Disagree with his methods if you must, but such pejorative language is highly offensive.



-------------------------------------</P>

A "Laughing Budda" or "Dai Tao Fut" is usually found cavorting in front of and leading the lion(s) in a Southern Lion Dance troupe.</P>

* I speak for myself and not for my Si Fu nor kwoon, so any errors I make are mine alone.

[mantis7]

nice reply.. As for MR Chuy never had the chance to see a clss I am glad you all have found a good sifu... But for as going at it to early.. Remember a majority of practioners are there to learn how to defend oneself... There ae very few people out there willing to take the road of a gung fu warrior.... Now as far as controlled sparring ( with padding and ala kickboxing) is one thign that is what the lower rank students were exposed to and used to increase there basic kick punching strikeing and ditang... AS for the bare hand training that was left to the seniors..

The classes especial mine were geared to mabu training, 3 star training, tanlou ( kuens) hand drills and others of the like..... I showed wequences had apply it slow then fast then with certian jing energy.. LOL when the other seniors used to teach ( not nameing names:>) none came to them.. when ever I had the floor it was always packed.....I belive when training a good gung fu fighter , warrior what have it is important to drill basic but at the same time you got to show them how to exactly how to use it for combat no IFS ands OR BUTTS about it... if you cant use your gung fu in 2 years what good is it.....

for those that must know I use my gung fu everyday I have to apply it to apprehensions in a deptartment store enviorment as a loss prevention detective..... I get into 2 to three fights a day and if it took me that long to be able to apply REAL GUNG FU I would be dead instead of writing this.. I am not saying MR Chuy's way is wrong just not my cup of tea....

Along with my job I have learned to apply my chinna very effectively on struggling and moving targets....

But you all can practice hand movements, jing , static postures and what have you but unless you learn how to penatrate on a target or learn how timinig, reflexs and human reaction to pain corespondes to fighring skill there is now one can learn how to use there gung fu.. That is like calling yourself a boxer without never steeping in the ring.....( this is not geared to no one just a genral statement)


but everybody remember not all sifu's are compatible with everyone.. just like many schools of thoughts sifu's will get diffrent types of students that gravitate towards them..

If you all at the tony chuy's school are so incline i may just drop by to see a class.. you all ahve peaked my curiosity....

[mantis7]

you are right in what you say... but using your gun anology.. you learn to USE you weapon,, by being shown how to fire it. the effects wind, moving target, breathe control and other various effects that can occur.. the key word is use and only by use can some one become comfortable aplly skill and technique....

now if you practice using your gung fu for 5 years or even less for 3 years and only practiced using limited contact in class. just running drills practicing fajing and foot work you wil not beable to use it in a fight to defend yourself... And I hope you dont try to tell me other wise...

You can practice your chin na again and again on a WILLING partner but try it on some one fighting to get away... Try using your to cut some one of from escape with the experience of knowing how someone moves.. its not going to happen
try using penatrating jing to strike a opponent that is backing up and moving with out the ability of knowing how the body moves when struck....

IT is like chess but like in learning how to play chess you learn the movements of each individual piece how they collorate to each other piece and how to string them together to make attack and defenses.. but all during the training proces you actually learn by playing the game.. yes easy to learn a life time to master...

gung fu in my opinion was made the same way quick to learn and grasp but a lifetime to master...
we all need to first learn how to play the game.. which will show us the basics and HOW to apply them.... NOT master them fisrt then learn how to apply them that (excuse the french) ass backwards... the only thing you all will get when you get to that glorious level of master is to find yourself back at the begining with the BASICS.. Gung fu is a full circle.... BAsic to Basic.... nuthing else.....

many gung fu warriors know how to apply a chin na tech or basic tech on a partner but Try putting it on me while we are fighting and you will see what happenes...

Can I aplly my mantis YES I have applied full speed chin na tech on unwilling fleeing attackers.. I have pulled shoulders out of place...BRoken fingers and other such things((( not bragging)) I am just realistic....

The only reason for this is beacuse as I learned these things I learned to apply them in REAL TIME COMBAT as I felt the movements and understood the movements.. When actually appling that is when you actually get the nuances and a full understanding of HOW TO DO IT RIGHT,,,,,, IF you are taught a tech and apply it again and again and you feel like YES I finally got it then you go to apply it and all of a sudden your attacker moves off angel or pulls some weird as move you find yourself SOL and struggling to keep the tech or doubting yourself and wondering if it really works or that you some how didnt do it right ( like most begginners)

Its just diffrent schools of thought mine is not better than anyones out there and I have been around training with some of the best and they werent all great fighters more than most were great scholars but there skills were not that great...

also remember that a sifu that cant fight well may still give great insight.. but a sifu teaching gung fu that never in his life really applied its may not be worth that much....

That is my two cents...


Victor
US ARMY
19 delta calvary scout recon
urban assault student
Demolitons student
7 star mantis practioner
Warrior
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Laughing Buddha]

You bring up a couple of cogent points and I agree with them. The only point on which we differ is the time when this "reality training" in the form of free-sparring is started at our respective kwoons. It's not that we don't free-spar as was claimed by Mantis Boxer. It's just that we start later and some people don't get to that point for one reason or another. And, as you said, different people have different opinions as to when free-sparring should start.</P>

To use an analogy since we've both spent time in the armed services in different nations: Just as the army doesn't issue live ammunition in what you term Urban Assault exercises until the trainees have gone through a sufficient number of dry runs and proven that they won't shoot their platoon-mates or themselves accidentally, so it is the same with us. It's just that we do more dry runs than most. Eventually, we get to the live ammunition part, too. It just takes longer, that's all. Call it safety if you will. Or call it "getting comf ortable in your shoes by taking the time to break them in." Personally, I like to think of this as the "Blister Reduction Principle to Free-Sparring". :) </P>


-------------------------------------</P>

A "Laughing Budda" or "Dai Tao Fut" is usually found cavorting in front of and leading the lion(s) in a Southern Lion Dance troupe.</P>

* I speak for myself and not for my Si Fu nor kwoon, so any errors I make are mine alone.

[This message was edited by Laughing Buddha on 12-08-00 at 03:44 AM.]

[mantis7]

Ok there I can agree with you there.. No argument there.... I would use the type of methodology you use at the kwwon to weed out the weekend warriors.. The slow method as I debated does have its advantages but it also has its bad points.. It is a moot point.... If you want to learn to fight fast then my way may be a litle better to do it slow is to master it at the same time as you learn it.. BUt imagine put our to methodology together and what could become of the practioner.. lol but hey can you do me the favor and find out who eight triagram boxer is for me.... I am dying to know because the way he feels
i was wondering if he was a 6 month trainneee or a long time member.. I have a feeling it was david.... but he was the only one who I knew had ties with mr chuy that trained at our school but it could bee someone else.. Sifu's hardcore methods chased a few people away,,,

LOL NO PAIN NO PLEASURE

find out who is eight traigram boxer ?????????

[Laughing Buddha]

You have some valid points and I'm glad that we have discussed a bit of each other's philosophies on the matter.

I'm afraid that I must allow 8_Triagram_Boxer the choice of revealing himself. Even if I did know who he is, I would not be able to violate a confidence. I'm sure that you understand.



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A "Laughing Buddha" or "Dai Tao Fut" is usually found cavorting in front of and leading the lion(s) in a Southern Lion Dance troupe.</P>

* I speak for myself and not for my Si Fu nor kwoon, so any errors I make are mine alone.>

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

It seems to me that this post has gotten out of hand. I have not replied to Manits7's question because it is irrelevant to the topic. The topic is, Mr. Chuy's school and whether or not he teaches fighting methods and sparring. I said my bit and that was enough. It became clear that Mr. Chuy is indeed a good instructor and that he does teach fighting methods. Then it evolved into a discussion of training methods and that was fine too. But knowing my identity is a useless piece of information. It will only satisfy your curiosity and nothing more. If you are dying to know, why not write me a personal e-mail rather than ask in this forum where it doesn't even pertain to the topic? So, whether or not I am this david person you speak of is going to remain a mystery because there was no reason to ask on here in the first place. Thank you....

~ETB
aka david

"Someone I once flattered in a book thinks he owes me nothing. Oh, the trash I have for friends." ~Martial

[mantis7]

Hey brother dont take it personal I am not on to flame or post bad things about anyone bro.... It was just out of wonder and curosity...

Bro you were from the school... You know I of all people had the biggest problem with sifu at one time.....All the seniors did at one time also but all families do.... look bro Im not looking to start any problems and please dont feel like I am trying to call you out didnt mean fot this to come out that way... This was more a talk of ideas nuthing more....

MR chuy has his methods and they aer his and his students and if you like that cool I prefer Albright sifu's.... That is my choice...

So please dont take any offense I didnt mean to say the name david lol didnt mean to ruffle any feathers lol its just in my nature any ways.. I inherited sifu Ortiz temperment... you know how that is like... but hey I will email you not a problem I am just wondering where all the students went I still get together with a few of the guys who went diffrent ways and started training else where and we get together and train....

I just dont believe in keeping anominity on the net I let people know who I am and back my word up at all time..... I dont care that people here what I say..... IF I say I trained under some one and in my opinion they werent that good I hold to my word..... **** bro thats how I feel then fine not everyone is going to feel that way but hey that inpaticular person was to my likeing....

I apologize for making it seem like a personal thing

Victor :cool:

[ChitownMantis]

(Bowing In)
Attn: Mantisboxer
I don't understand, from what I expiranced and researched. Studying the Martial Arts and fighting are to different things. I sounds like you are talking about fighting in the streets.

Do you know what you would call a person who knows a mantis style, yet only fights in the streets: a street fighter. Not to use word play, but sparing and fighting is different. The school that I studied in we sparred but only on friday. I saw sparring as a tool to get used to the fact that you was using what you have learn what you used but in a real live situation.

Let me know if you feel different or if anyone else reading this feels different.
(Bowing out)