The "Ultimate" Problem

[AdrianK]

Martial arts nowadays are filled with adaptation, because they need to be. Instructors really are changing and learning on a regular basis. Thats a good thing, a changing world needs new ideas. However I'm very disappointed that many teachers are either changing for the wrong reasons, or while they change because of irrefutable evidence, aren't learning the lessons that changes in the martial arts world have taught us. I figured I'd voice my opinion here, to see if I can find like-minded people.

These are a few of the problems I see in the martial arts today, and I'd definitely appreciate any criticism, debate and discussion that anyone has to add. I believe that in this way of being tested by our peers, we may all learn and benefit.

The idea of an "Ultimate" Technique/Form/Style has not left the martial arts.
Years ago, this was a far more prominent issue. Many Instructors would outright voice the opinion that their style is "Unbeatable", is the "Best", etc. Unfortunately from what I've seen, this viewpoint hasn't left, its just changed. Now there are hosts of instructors who, adapting to the MMA mentality, will preach the ideas they've been forced to adopt, however still with the belief that their chosen style, idea, training method, technique, or form can defeat all practictioners.

This leads me to the next point, Application, for several schools, is the new "Ultimate" idea. Application is essential, but its only one training method that makes a martial artist. I feel there is an extreme overfocus on this. However, while I cannot list all of the issues with martial arts here, I will say this - I believe we need to learn and appreciate the benefits of all of the relevant training methods we've learned, and not get caught up in finding a "special" way to do things that no one else has thought of(or that we think no one else has thought of). Application is one of these things that some schools seem to think they're "special" in their understanding of. The overemphasis takes away from all other parts, and creates an unrealistic sense of ability with the practitioner.

A Single part of martial arts, no matter how essential it may be, cannot be overemphasized. To become a proficient fighter and martial artist, there must be a balance and understanding of all parts involved.

The emphasis can also be seen on the scientific side as well. With many people attempting to rationalize or legitimize their ideas and martial arts by using science, we've learned the scientific method can be beneficial. However, this is also being misused by many people to come to "absolute" conclusions regarding the martial arts, by people who either do not have a complete understanding of the sciences they're explaining, or are placing too much emphasis on the scientific conclusion, as if it could win a fight by itself. Science is something to consider and understand, to expand our knowledge, and to develop ourselves. It cannot win a fight by itself, and far too often science being used to legitimize an entire style, by explaining a single aspect of the incredibly complex and diverse subjects that make up martial arts and fighting.


The next issue I have is with styles. I will not say that styles should be mixed, or that they should remain preserved and unchanged. I will not say that styles should be abolished. However, I will say that many people are limiting themselves to become that particular style or styles. This includes Mixed Martial Artists. Simply because you do a mix of styles, does not change this. Martial arts as I see it, are templates on how to use, and develop your body. The expression and development of the highest levels must be nurtured by the practitioner themselves, special care must be taken to understand your own body in order to achieve the maximum power, strength, etc., and in order to do that you must understand the principles, the movements, the forms, and your own body, in its entirety. This means it is an endless journey of development. Your body will go through countless changes, and you must adapt to these changes constantly, in order to maintain proficiency. By not restricting yourself to becoming the style, which in itself is a static set of ideas that only covers a small portion of the expression of the human body and mind, your development and proficiency has no barrier. It is, as said before. Endless.


Next, In regards to fighting and competition - Far too often the issues with fighting and competition are not the style itself, but a lack of preparation or understanding of the situations that a fighter will encounter. I've seen many of my peers compete who are very well prepared, and many who are very unprepared. Competition in particular, The problems I've seen with Kung Fu stylists are not related as much to their proficiency in sparring, their conditioning, or their power. Its rather their teachers and/or their own lack of understanding of the "game" they are entering into. Many times I've seen students go into competition with no strategy or game plan. Simply the idea to fight and win. If we look at the lessons learned from successful boxing and MMA coaches, kung fu teachers can better prepare their students for the ring/octagon/whatever. This in itself, includes fighting on the street as well. If you don't understand the dynamics of street fighting, you are at a serious disadvantage. Understanding and consideration of these aspects can better prepare fighters for the real world.


Finally, the last issue that I'll speak about is the overemphasis on fighting, in itself. No, Fighting, Sparring, Competition, all of this helps us grow. However, the issue I have is not that this is part of what we do, but that many people feel that this, or physical health benefits, are the only reasons to train in the martial arts.

This last issue is a personal viewpoint, and I don't expect anyone to agree with, or follow what I believe martial arts is about. Albert Einstein said, "Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile". Selfishness is a staple of our society. Martial arts should be used to develop our bodies and minds to help the people around us. No, not specifically with physical conflict - With genuinely helping people in any way we can. Many people shun strength training, but imagine how many people you can help by simply having the strength to. In American Society, we don't have as much of a need for fighting or protection. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't train it, its what martial arts were created for in the first place.. But we need to help our neighbors, develop loyal friendships, and better the world around us. This should be the first and foremost goal of any human being. Our world is still in a terrible state, we simply have the benefit of not having to deal with the worst problems. But we still have issues at home we can help with, and the strength, both mental and physical, that you develop on a daily basis through the martial arts, can help shape the world into a better place, and keep it that way.

[YouKnowWho]

Martial arts should be used to develop our bodies and minds to help the people around us.
Many years ago I taught Taiji to a group of old people (60 to 70 years old). I always taught them the combat application for each moves. They asked me, "Do you expect us to use Taiji to fight in our old age?" I told them, "Application is the only guideline that can help you to remember how to do your form correctly".

The moment that you de-emphasizes the combat part of the CMA, the moment that CMA will move into a direction that cannot be reversed. For example, you may find a move that is "pretty for look" or "good for health". You add that move into your form and pass it down to your next generation. Since you had taught your next generation that combat is not the most important part of the training, they may also add some moves that will have no value in combat. After several generations like this, the form that you have passed down will become something that no one will be able to understand it. IMO, combat is the only way that can keep CMA to maintain it's original flavor.

There are many people in California who can't care less about combat. They had formed organization such as "Taiji for Health", "Taiji for Spiritual Development", ... Those people are the main stream and we are just the minority that trying to tell the rest of the world that CMA is not only good for health, spiritual development, harmony to the society, ... CMA also have combat value.

Without combat in mind, nobody want to spend painful training time to develop certain skills that's only useful in combat and not useful in our daily life. Certain skill development may soon or later disappear from this planet. IMO, that will be a lose in our civilization.

[AdrianK]

I appreciate your comments. I don't mean to de-emphasize combat ability - As said in my post, there must be a balance, and combat application is a major part of martial arts. I don't think anything should be added that isn't relevant in some way to developing your body or mind as a martial artist. As such, useless movements would serve no purpose but to dilute the art. What I meant wasn't that each movement should not have a combative focus, but more that ones only purpose should not be simply to fight.. there are plenty of people who can benefit from your mental and physical strength and ability, outside of fighting.

Nonetheless, that portion was mostly to state my own personal aspirations. That being said, I personally believe in the preservation of the styles original goals, concepts, principles, etc.. A personal expression or improvements should be taught as such, not as the original style itself, or some fictional "secret method passed down". A Martial artist may have need for his own personal form for "health" in old age, for instance. There is no need to "Add" this to the style you teach, it is a personal expression and should be used or taught, as such.

I understand your interest in preserving the combat application of martial arts, and that much of western society does not understand the combat value of CMA. It is up to you and your peers to pass on and preserve these traditions. However, because of the nature of martial arts, its not up to us if some people pass down non-combative styles or forms. That is the nature of personal expression, and the fact that true warriors are becoming scarcer and scarcer in western society. I personally do not agree with removing the combat application, but understand the value for some people in learning only the health benefits - This is because of how popular taiji has become. It is more popular and effective to market "Taiji for health", to market a mysterious "power" than simply "Health Exercises for old people".

I could get into how badly martial arts have suffered from business practices and greed, but thats another discussion...

[YouKnowWho]

In American Society, we don't have as much of a need for fighting or protection.
If US government hire you tomorrow as the main MA instructor to teach FBI, CIA, anti-terror group, president's body guard, ... then you may want to look at CMA from a different angle. :)

A friend of mine after he had accepted a job like that, he no longer mentioned the word "sport". He has used the word "combat" since then.

[AdrianK]

If US government hire you tomorrow as the main MA instructor to teach FBI, CIA, anti-terror group, president's body guard, ... then you may look CMA from a different angle.

1.) The hand-to-hand combat focus for these groups is very small in comparison to their entire job. It is important, but as such, it requires only the basics of fighting to be drilled, as they have many job requirements that are just as, if not more important. The basics that they are taught and use, are universally in most all combative arts. Because of the team-based nature, as well as the inclusion of firearms, the usefulness of the more refined combat aspects of CMA is not nearly as important.

2.) The vast majority of martial artists are not, and will never be part of any of these groups. Each of these groups have training methods that are well preserved. I am almost entirely sure they do not hire "Taiji for Health" guys to train their men, am I correct? :) And I am sure any intelligent person who goes into this field would not train with people such as that, either.

You must train in what suits your lifestyle.

[YouKnowWho]

Besides combat, health, and spiritual development, CMA can also give you "fun". When your moves work beautifully against your opponent, that kind of satisfaction can not be replaced by anything that exist on this planet. A friend of mine told his wife that CMA is his 1st wife and she is only his 2nd wife. It's very difficult for none CMA person like his wife to understand this kind of mentality.

If we take combat (2 persons interaction) away from CMA then this kind of fun will no longer be available. It's like you love to play chess but you can't find anybody who are available to play with you. You will feel very lonely.

Sometime a CMA teacher teaches to his students is not because he needs the money but because he needs some sparring partners so he can have some fun in his daily life.

Fun do play a big part of the CMA.

[bawang]

hi, i think the main problem is people are too soft. for good kung fu you need to have a cruel heart and spicy hands. when you punch someone, its like imaginging smashing their face with a hammer, it should be the same feeling. mma people are strong brutal aggressive thats why they win.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

1. You must study only BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai and condition like crazy every day.

2. You must spar full on, 100% against 110% resisting opponents from the first day, and everyday.

3. You must fight in every bare knuckle NHB MMA competition possible and win.

4. You must have your vids on Youtube

5. You must wear gay, skin tight spandex pants and have lots of tatoos.

Anything less than this means your Sh!t is fake and you are a TCMA loser.

[David Jamieson]

1. You must study only BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai and condition like crazy every day.

2. You must spar full on, 100% against 110% resisting opponents from the first day, and everyday.

3. You must fight in every bare knuckle NHB MMA competition possible and win.

4. You must have your vids on Youtube

5. You must wear gay, skin tight spandex pants and have lots of tatoos.

Anything less than this means your Sh!t is fake and you are a TCMA loser.

I concur! lol.

seriously though, if you turn MA training into some kind of spiritual mental journey then you will disolve the wholeness of it.

It is a "martial" art after all.

Kungfu on the other hand is different and is holistic.

language is important.

meditation is not martial, kindness and goodness to others is not martial. Martial is to destroy enemies, destroy evil and train to be a victor.

It is all well and good to incorporate the mechanisms of restraint, but these are not martial.

[YouKnowWho]

meditation is not martial, kindness and goodness to others is not martial. Martial is to destroy enemies, destroy evil and train to be a victor.
- Be able to kill but don't want to kill is called kindness.
- Not be able to kill but claim don't want to kill is cowardliness.

You don't want to move mountain and fill up ocean because you can't. You don't want to get a tree branch for an elder because you don't want to. There is a big difference between "don't want to" and "can't".

US loves to talk about "regime change" because US has WMD. US may prefer to talk about "world peace" if US doesn't have WMD.

[AdrianK]

The point isn't to dissolve the combat aspect. Nor is it to put any less focus on it during training. The point is not to overemphasize any aspect of training, and to have something beyond fighting, to train for.

If there were no more enemies, will you stop training?

By overemphasis on fighting, I do not mean people spar too much, or compete too much, or such. These things themselves are part of martial arts. I love sparring, and I love competing.

The point was that people overemphasize on training to fight someone, as if their life depends on it on a daily basis. What happens when you get older? When you have no more street fights to get into? Then you must find another reason for training. A passion for the arts themselves, for instance.

There are two words you need to consider, martial, and arts. As martial, it must remain combative, this is the core, but it shares another definition. As art, it is personal expression, and interpretation. Thus the health and strength benefits, the ethics and morals that still many older kung fu teachers focus on. Any spiritual journey is based on what you define as spirituality, I don't believe I ever mentioned spirituality in my post.


And as for mental development, every journey you undertake to master something, is among other things, a mental journey as well. What point is there to do something with our lives if it does not help us grow as people?


Nonetheless, the points everyone decided to consider in the post, were only my personal reasons for doing martial arts. When I decide to teach in the future, they're views that I will choose to express onto my students, as they are views I find very important to martial arts. But as said in my post before, they're views I don't expect anyone to share with me, as everyone has their own reasons for training, and many of them have lifestyles very different from mine. I would not expect my friends in the military, whose life depends on combat effectiveness, to not have an excessive focus on combat effectiveness. It is their life, and it is necessary for them. However, I would not expect an eighty year old person who only wants to maintain their health, to have any focus on combat effectiveness whatsoever. Finally, as said before, the only way we're going to make this world better is by helping eachother. I feel martial arts is a vehicle for this, as it helps develop a strong willpower.

Its a fairly common viewpoint on kung fu, which I don't expect anyone to agree with. However, they're personally held beliefs. Ethics are very important to many kung fu stylists, and this extends beyond the martial definition.

If martial arts were simply a western thing, you could reduce it to its definition. However, as we know, there are martial arts from all around the world, and differing viewpoints everywhere. It is impossible to define it simply by the words "martial arts" themselves, as they and their teachers, vary far and wide. The majority of them have history and culture to adopt that extends far beyond the martial definition.


However, the point is that, your reason for doing martial arts is your own. There is, from a logical standpoint, no "Incorrect" reason for doing martial arts. Just as there is no "incorrect" reason for painting, making music, or expressing yourself in any way.

[jdhowland]

AK, you bring up some really good points.

What "martial art" means nowadays is different from when it was first adopted into English in the fourteenth century. Originally, it meant something like "the technology and specialized skills of the military elite, (the knights and lords of medieval europe)." It never meant self-defense or a way to personal development. Now, it is used to mean anything from skills for contests to oriental cultism to killing tactics to a path to enlightenment...

One thing i like to bring up in my classes is that martial art is not about being champions of anything. It is not about being the best, the ultimate. It is not about winning (although winning is a desirable outcome). It is training for those who have the will to fight--at any level of ability. It was designed for group defense, not individual survival. On the battlefield it is better to have a cripple backing you up than to be the last man in your squadron.

John

[David Jamieson]

qigong, meditation and various other aspects support attributes of martial arts, but in and of themselves are not martial.

fighting is for young men. Youth get bored with breath work, meditation and self cultivation that is not visceral. Almost all youth are this way.

YKW - I understand the difference between can't and won't. I don't think it is germane to the point.

If you are putting forth a regimen of martial training, then it need not include any of the esoteric arts. this has been demonstrated to be true. Time and again.

If you want to learn to have Kungfu, then yes, train holistically and train the breath work, the calligrapphy etc, the path of the scholar warrior is fine. But this path is slow to get to the goal of "fighter" there are far faster and way more efficient methods of doing this and this is why people think studying martial arts with all the esoteric trappings is a waste fo time when all they want to do is learn to fight.

i agree with this.

you can always take up the soft stuff later when you are too old to actually mix it up with any efficacy. there is value in that.

fwiw, I train my personal kungfu. But I will gladly impart only fighting skills separate and apart as best as I am able to satisfy the thirst of those who ask. It takes less time and I don't have to be concerned with all the other minutia. I'm happy to share, the person is happy to receive and we move on. In the meanwhile, I am free to exchange with the like minded from the choices of other training that has nothing to do with martial arts.

[YouKnowWho]

YKW - I understand the difference between can't and won't. I don't think it is germane to the point.
Actually I agree with what you have said 100% there that, "meditation is not martial, kindness and goodness to others is not martial. Martial is to destroy enemies, destroy evil and train to be a victor." and I just enhance it a little bit.

[David Jamieson]

Actually I agree with what you have said 100% there that, "meditation is not martial, kindness and goodness to others is not martial. Martial is to destroy enemies, destroy evil and train to be a victor." and I just enhance it a little bit.

ok. understood. Hard to reckon what is written sometimes and takes further discussion to clarify. :)

[mantis108]

First and foremost, we must understand that ultimately martial arts is very much a dialectical progress of human experience. Chinese martial arts in particular was developed as a mean to preserve a way of living. Over time, it became inseparable from Chinese consciousness which means it has become a necessary mean of perfection within Chinese psyche (in particular Chinese National oversea). The journey of transcending self preservation to self perfection is long and perilous, and as interesting and difficult as the development of metaphysics in philosophy.

To talk about the dialectical progress of a martial art without a descent understanding of its history is senseless. As I am not interested in a long narration of Chinese history with regard to the 5 major trades including the military that require martial arts training, I will just say that there is very much a reason, albeit practical rather then speculative, to the development of kung Fu and that is non other than the idea of "Pure Good" (zhi Shan) of the Confucian school. Chinese as one of the ancient people and a country that is on the verge of "renaissance" owes a lot to those who dedicated their lives to develop Kung Fu and used it to protect and serve the people and the country with their blood and tears. Simply put, to think of Kung Fu as pure sport or pure artistic or frame it with utilitarian value of usefulness or not is just irrational IMHO.

Physical confrontation however important is only the tip of the ice burg. The true value of Kung Fu transcends ego centric goal be it self preservation or self perfection. It is an important contribution, whether past or future, to the continue success of an ancient people.

Mantis108

[YouKnowWho]

If we treat CMA as health, art, or spiritual development only then many valuable CMA training method will be lost forever. For example, why do you want to train this skill?

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1445/singleheadweightpo1.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleheadweightpo1.jpg)

- It won't improve your health.
- It has no art value, and
- It doesn't improve your spiritual development.

Since this ability does not come with our birth, we will never have this ability that only has combat value but no other value.

[Oso]

from my limited experience, i just have a hard time believing that martial arts was all about spirituallity or healthfullness back in the day. it seems that westerners projected those ideals upon a culture they did not understand and wily old chinese guys had to have coined 'a sucker is born every minute' way before Barnum was supposed to have said it.


certainly 20th century americans have taken the ball and ran with it...I just saw an advert for 'Tai Chi Chih' here in town and googled it....

[jdhowland]

"...the 5 major trades including the military that require martial arts training..."

At the risk of sounding pedantic, this might also be stated as: "...that require fighting arts training..." thereby preserving the difference between the traditional English language use of the word martial and the Chinese wu/mo "military" arts.

One of the points i was trying to make in my earlier post is that average citizens do not participate in martial arts in the original sense. But it isn't necessary to assume the same for wu shu/mou gei.



Physical confrontation however important is only the tip of the ice burg. The true value of Kung Fu transcends ego centric goal be it self preservation or self perfection. It is an important contribution, whether past or future, to the continued success of an ancient people. Mantis108

Very well put. This is an excellent reminder that Chinese gung fu would be less than what it is without the cultural attachments that give identity and tell the story of long struggle and sacrifice.

Mantis108, thank you for the reminder.

jd

[David Jamieson]

If we treat CMA as health, art, or spiritual development only then many valuable CMA training method will be lost forever. For example, why do you want to train this skill?

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1445/singleheadweightpo1.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=singleheadweightpo1.jpg)

- It won't improve your health.
- It has no art value, and
- It doesn't improve your spiritual development.

Since this ability does not come with our birth, we will never have this ability that only has combat value but no other value.

This is attribute development directly related to martial strength development.
there are many exercises like these that develop specific attributes related to skill/strengths required when fighting.

[AdrianK]

If we treat CMA as health, art, or spiritual development only then many valuable CMA training method will be lost forever.

I'm not advocating treating it only as health or art. Spirituality never even entered the discussion until other people brought this in. I am only advocating peoples freedom to treat it however they'd like. Martial arts have more benefits than simply combat application - Some people choose to overfocus on the health portion, some people on the art portion(wushu), and some people on the combative portion.

What I believe in is balancing all that is in martial arts, and not overfocusing on any one portion. Take into consideration all that the martial arts have to offer, and maintain a balance. I don't think I need to explain the value of mental development to a fighter.. Its the difference between Sugar Ray Leonard... and Tank Abbot, for instance.

Now, due to the nature of society, you won't ever have to worry about the combative portions being lost, as long as they make sense and they work. Humanity will always have an interest in combative arts.. its just that in a peaceful society, some people shun conflict, so there are groups who have no interest in it, as well.

[Lucas]

ive noticed many times on forums, people will form a response to one aspect of your post. thats why it seems people are thinking you are advocating any one aspect of martial arts, and you are having to constantly reiterate your intentions. they are just pin pointing and focusing on certain aspects of your post, rather than the whole.

it seems to me, in your original posting, that you are talking about the balancing between the mariad aspects that are available to us in martial arts training. yet with understanding that each person lives a different lifestyle, thus creating the demand for what their focus may be.

at this point i'm holding the majority of my opinion to myself. i will say though, that the points you make about imbalances, i believe have always been in martial arts, although there is a noticable extreme in the modern day. from more than one angle. I do believe a lot of this is stemming from culture itself. from not learning and knowing where your material comes from culturally, to where you live in the present day. americans for example, have increasingly become hunters for the 'quick buck' or 'fast results'. So culturally speaking, you will find many americans catering to, and asking for this type of training.

you get a guy with no past experience, in his 20's-30's and he wants to be the next UFC champ in 3 years.

someone will try to cater to his demand.

[YouKnowWho]

We have to allocate our training time in such a way that we can get the best result out of it. Let's just remove the "health" factor out of this discussion since whether you take the "combat" or the "art" approach, you will always get the "health" as the byproduct. Let's also remove the "spiritual development" out of this discussion. It's too abstract and after so many years of "look inside myself", I still don't know whether I'll be good enough to go to heaven or not. Now we have just 2 elements left, the "combat" and the "art". Let's see how we are going to balance between this 2.

Assume you have learned 30 forms (include weapon) in your life time (a friend of mine had learned over 200 forms). If you want to repeat each form 4 times daily, that will take you 30 x 4 = 120 rep. If each forms take 5 minutes to perform (some Taiji form may take longer), it will take you 5 x 120 = 600 minutes = 10 hours.

If you want to maintain your combat ability and repeat each punch, kick, lock, and throw 10 times daily. There are 5 major punches, 5 major kicks, 40 major locks, and 100 major throws. It may take about the same amount of time to complete the same rep daily.

Since we only have 24 hours each day, we have to decide how to allocate our training time. IMO, we just don't have the luxury to do both.

Of course we don't have to train every solo form daily. We also don't need to train every combat skill daily. It just shows how much material that we need to cover in our training and we have not even covered the 2 men drills, equipment training, sparring training, and endurance training yet.

I had spent so much times in my solo forms training when I was young (I have learned over 50 forms). I had given up all my solo form training many years ago. No matter how much I love the performance art, I just don't have the time for it.

[bakxierboxer]

Now, due to the nature of society, you won't ever have to worry about the combative portions being lost....

Patent nonsense, especially since "some people never learn"!
You also need to explain how it is that so many students go through a decent number of years of publicly funded "education" and still "graduate" virtually (even actually) illiterate.
(and this says nothing at all about their accomplishments in some more abstract subjects)

[AdrianK]

Patent nonsense, especially since "some people never learn"!
You also need to explain how it is that so many students go through a decent number of years of publicly funded "education" and still "graduate" virtually (even actually) illiterate.
(and this says nothing at all about their accomplishments in some more abstract subjects)

Those that need it and use it, will retain it.
There are hundreds of thousands(millions?) of people in the security industry, in the military, and involved in professional fighting.

So, even without the millions of people who study martial arts without an immediate need for it, there would always be those who need and use it, to continue to pass on this knowledge.

But nonetheless, from my experience the brightest minds in martial arts, always find more than enough people to pass their martial arts to.. its the people of weak character, who have trouble keeping students.

[bakxierboxer]

Those that need it and use it, will retain it.

Not if they never "got it" in the first place.


There are hundreds of thousands(millions?) of people in the security industry, in the military, and involved in professional fighting.

So?



So, even without the millions of people who study martial arts without an immediate need for it, there would always be those who need and use it, to continue to pass on this knowledge.

Those who "need" and "use" MA are not at all guaranteed to have the abilities or inclination to pass it on.



But nonetheless, from my experience the brightest minds in martial arts, always find more than enough people to pass their martial arts to.. its the people of weak character, who have trouble keeping students.

It looks like your experience is somewhat limited.

[AdrianK]

Your speculation on whether some will continue to understand it or not is irrelevant. It cannot be proven either way. You are free to believe in what makes sense to you, my friend. I do not want to be brought into some kind of internet war, so I won't be engaging in a constant back-and-fourth dissection of each others posts. If you did not understand my previous postings, you can go back and re-read them for further clarification.

As for the comment on my experience, well, it looks like you're nothing more than a stubborn internet warrior, son. However, since we do not know each other personally, it would be wise not to speculate on these things.

After this I won't be responding to your posts. If you'd like to continue to respond to this posting itself, you're free to do so, however it would only be for yourself, as based on your attitude, I have no interest in reading any more of your replies.

[bakxierboxer]

As for the comment on my experience, well, it looks like you're nothing more than a stubborn internet warrior, son.

Son?
{snicker!}



After this I won't be responding to your posts. If you'd like to continue to respond to this posting itself, you're free to do so, however it would only be for yourself, as based on your attitude, I have no interest in reading any more of your replies.

I've earned my "attitude".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your speculation on whether some will continue to understand it or not is irrelevant. It cannot be proven either way. You are free to believe in what makes sense to you, my friend. I do not want to be brought into some kind of internet war, so I won't be engaging in a constant back-and-fourth dissection of each others posts. If you did not understand my previous postings, you can go back and re-read them for further clarification.

As for the comment on my experience, well, it looks like you're nothing more than a stubborn internet warrior, son. However, since we do not know each other personally, it would be wise not to speculate on these things.

After this I won't be responding to your posts. If you'd like to continue to respond to this posting itself, you're free to do so, however it would only be for yourself, as based on your attitude, I have no interest in reading any more of your replies.

No offense, but Pete is older than Methusula and probably just as dusty.
And has more MA experience that most of us older guys have YEARS alive.

[SimonM]

We live in a world that is much less violent than the one 110 years ago. The rule of law is more firmly entrenched across a larger swath of the earth (though certainly not all of it) and the cultural millieu is one in which the values of pacifism are encouraged over aggression in school.

Now martial artists who don't want day jobs mostly make their money teaching martial arts.

In cultures that are largely passive the need for fighting is reduced.

And so martial artists re-brand their arts as health or spiritual growth activities.

Truth is that this is not what martial arts were originally for.

However it doesn't mean that those new applications of martial arts are without merit.

They may have merit. They may not. That remains to be seen.

[YouKnowWho]

The "health", "art", and "spiritual development" can all be done solo. Do we really want to see CMA becomes a "solo performance" in the future generation instead of "problem solving" for human inter-action? We can remove all the combat elements out of CMA and it will still be good for "health", "art" and "spiritual development".

We don't seen Wushu guys perform any joint locking skill because it's not pretty to watch. We also don't see Wushu guys perform any throwing skill because it will look silly to throw an invisible opponent. It may even more funny to perform any solo ground skill.

The problem is what will be left in CMA after we have removed the combat element? Nobody will care about heavy bag, equipment training, 2 men drills, ... Everybody just kick and punch in the thin air?

Even none violent scholars in ancient China still loved to play chess. In chess game, you want to win and defeat your opponent. It's just "fun" and has nothing to do with violence. In the old China, your friend came to visit you, you threw him a SC jacket and you 2 wrestled for 15 rounds. You two then took a shower and had some nice dinner and nice wine after that. There was no violence in that picture at all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have no issue with people TRYING to MAKE MA about stuff other than fighting, as long as they do it AFTER they have become good at fighting.
Its when people try to make MA about stuff OTHER than fighting beofre they can even beat an "average joe" that I have issues with.
Go get all healthy and spiritual when someone is stomping a mud hole on your face and then tell me how full filling it was.

[SimonM]

I understand that sentiment.

I paint.

I went to art school for two years.

After that time, in which I learned much about the fundamentals of art I developed a great fondness for the works of Mark Rothko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rothko), whose work remains very influential on my own.

Today at work I showed a co-worker a painting by Rothko and her response was "seems like something I might have done in first grade"...

It made me want to shout "no it's bloody well not!"

The point is that one must learn how to control a medium fully before improvising and doing something wierd with it.

[YouKnowWho]

as long as they do it AFTER they have become good at fighting.
I agree! It's better to talk about "world peace" after you have developed your own WMD.

If your teacher is a Sanda champion then any solo forms that he teaches you, you will learn without questions. If your teacher is a Wushu champion then you may question whether that form will improve your combat ability or not. The students confidence heavily depend on their teacher's combat ability. How can CMA be able to pass down from generation to generation if the next generation will have no faith in the current generation?

Of course some students may still want to learn from a teacher even if that teacher teaches CMA as a dancing art. But what kind of value will those kind of students be able to bring to the future CMA development?

A friend of mine introduced CMA into the most famous dancing group "Cloud Gate" in Taiwan. The CMA is integrated into their dancing skill. I can see that will help the future development of the dancing art, but I cannot see that will help the future development of the combat art in any way.

[David Jamieson]

The thing about "art" is that it is in the eye of the beholder. One mans treasure could easily be what another regards as ****.

But martial, that's different. You can only have one winner in a martial contest.

[bakxierboxer]

No offense, but Pete is older than Methusula and probably just as dusty.

None taken.

"Methuselah"!

In any case, the only problem with that is finding someone "qualified" to blow that dust off. :( :rolleyes:



And has more MA experience that most of us older guys have YEARS alive.

There are some who seem to think that "less is more".....
(ok, that usually means they need their heads examined.....)

In any case, what my experiences have shown me is that "merely" picking up a form sequence does not in any way transmit the applications.... even when they're "obvious" to a trained eye.
The reason for this is that the eye of the learner is (usually) untrained!
Even when that learner is "trained" it is not always in that particular style/manner and they don't necessarily have the requisite foundational knowledge to adequately infer the true nature of the material.

[David Jamieson]

None taken.

"Methuselah"!

In any case, the only problem with that is finding someone "qualified" to blow that dust off. :( :rolleyes:




There are some who seem to think that "less is more".....
(ok, that usually means they need their heads examined.....)

In any case, what my experiences have shown me is that "merely" picking up a form sequence does not in any way transmit the applications.... even when they're "obvious" to a trained eye.
The reason for this is that the eye of the learner is (usually) untrained!
Even when that learner is "trained" it is not always in that particular style and they don't necessarily have the requisite foundational knowledge to adequately infer the true nature of the material.

20 bucks on hollywood and vine gets you a qualified dust blower. lol

[bakxierboxer]

20 bucks on hollywood and vine gets you a qualified dust blower. lol

Is that a personal recommendation?

[Oso]

20 bucks on hollywood and vine gets you a qualified dust blower. lol

you mean you can pay a woman to do that? sheet, and here I've been trying to have relationships all this time....

[bakxierboxer]

you mean you can pay a woman to do that? sheet, and here I've been trying to have relationships all this time....

Now wait just a minnit!
(at least think about it a minnit)

He did say "Hollywood and Vine", so there's no actual guarantee of an "actual woman".

[Oso]

true...

now i'm trying to remember the 'test' joke from some movie...was it the 'grope test' or something like that...

[sanjuro_ronin]

None taken.

"Methuselah"!

In any case, the only problem with that is finding someone "qualified" to blow that dust off. :( :rolleyes:




There are some who seem to think that "less is more".....
(ok, that usually means they need their heads examined.....)

In any case, what my experiences have shown me is that "merely" picking up a form sequence does not in any way transmit the applications.... even when they're "obvious" to a trained eye.
The reason for this is that the eye of the learner is (usually) untrained!
Even when that learner is "trained" it is not always in that particular style/manner and they don't necessarily have the requisite foundational knowledge to adequately infer the true nature of the material.

Very true, IF one is to learn fighting from forms one must have a very good teacher, one that has a very deep knowledge of fighting AND forms.
A teacher that can not only apply the moves but knows how to train them and drill them.

[YouKnowWho]

learn fighting from forms
IMO, to learn fighting from form is only the beginning stage.

1st - you learn the form.
2nd - you learn the application.
3rd - you learn how to use equipment to help you to develop those application.
4th - you learn how to counter it.
5th - you learn how to counter those counters.

Modern Wushu stops at the 1st stage. Most CMA teachers stop at the 2nd stage. Very few CMA teacher continue on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th stages.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO, to learn fighting from form is only the beginning stage.

1st - you learn the form.
2nd - you learn the application.
3rd - you learn how to use equipment to help you to develop those application.
4th - you learn how to counter it.
5th - you learn how to counter those counters.

Modern Wushu stops at the 1st stage. Most CMA teachers stop at the 2nd stage. Very few CMA teacher continue on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th stages.

Agree 100% John.

[banditshaw]

Now wait just a minnit!
(at least think about it a minnit)

He did say "Hollywood and Vine", so there's no actual guarantee of an "actual woman".

True.
And therein lies the old pull and tuck technique. A stealth like maneuver it would seem.

[bakxierboxer]

IMO, to learn fighting from form is only the beginning stage.

1st - you learn the form.
2nd - you learn the application.
3rd - you learn how to use equipment to help you to develop those application.
4th - you learn how to counter it.
5th - you learn how to counter those counters.

Modern Wushu stops at the 1st stage. Most CMA teachers stop at the 2nd stage. Very few CMA teacher continue on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th stages.

I always tended to run the first 3 stages together.
It's rather difficult to form/execute the moves correctly if you don't know what they're supposed to be doing.
This also alleviates the waste of time that's spent doing the moves wrong and prevents having to spend time correcting any bad habits picked up doing the stuff wrong.

[bakxierboxer]

True.
And therein lies the old pull and tuck technique. A stealth like maneuver it would seem.

:confused:
That sounds like it came from one of those "Secrets of...." tomes. ;)
Which one was it? :rolleyes:

[bawang]

people want to learn too much for too little time
there is old story of a guy who only know bear hug and beat a lot of people because he was so strong, and a guy that only know bow stance punch and beat a lot of people because his fist was so hard