Hung Gar knees

[wetwonder]

Hi,

I started leariing Hung Gar recently. I am in the middle of first form. I've been going 4 to 5 times per week. Once I moved past the first horse stance segment and into the forward stances and unicorn stances, my legs muscles started to really bog down. Some nights they ached so much I couldn't sleep. This, I figured is normal while developing strenghth, and thus caused me no concern. In the last week, however, the tops of both knees are very tender whenever I bend them while bearing weight. For example, when I sit down on the toilet, the pain flares up until I am fully down. Also going down the stairs, bending, etc.

My Sifu is very very good about watching and ensuring my form. I started at 30 pounds overweight, and have now lost 7 pounds so far. Are my knees responding normally here? I haven't mentioned it to Sifu.

Thanks.

[TenTigers]

you said you are thirty lbs overweight. Was this a very gradual increase in weight, say during your developmental years, or a fairly rapid weight gain, say, over a few years?
Quite often, when people gain weight rapidly, their body cannot adequately adapt to the excsess strain placed upon the body. Sometimes due to the way the body gains bodyfat-not evenly distributed,as in men, from the waist up, hense the term, "apple body." You may notice in overweight people, that they appear knock kneed. Their knees turn or bend inward. This is due to the knee not being able to withstand the added weight. All the tendons and ligaments are being abnormally stretched beyond their proper range.
If you are going into a new form of exercise, this may add to the knee problems.
Or possibly create a problem, due to added stress.
You might need to rest, and then strengthen the supportive structures of the knee.
I say,"might," as I am not a doctor, or a PT. I am just commenting on what I observe.
TaaiGihkYan would be more qualified to answer your question, as he is a PT as well as an experienced Martial Artist.

But first, we will need to invoke him into appearing. Gather the following items:
frankinsence, myhrr,quicksilver, cinnabar, cinnabuns, party hats and a rubber chicken.
Oh, and don't forget the clown shoes.
Then, at the stroke of twelve, noon I think...start chanting the mantra,
"ooheeeyo, ooooo-oooh"
then hope and wait....
oh and put on the party hat and clown shoes, otherwise he will not appear.

[wetwonder]

Thanks for the input. This was normal gradual weight gain that accompanies aging. This is my first time with matial arts.

As far conjuring up more help, I've never dressed up as a clown, but I am willing to learn.

[TenTigers]

Thanks for the input. This was normal gradual weight gain that accompanies aging. This is my first time with matial arts.

As far conjuring up more help, I've never dressed up as a clown, but I am willing to learn.

Outstanding! Attitude is everything!

normal gradual weight gain that accompanies aging...are we talking about from late twenties to forties-fifties? If it is, than it isn't really gradual, as the body's structures are already developed, so any weight gain besides lean muscle mass,(fat) is considered stress.

[SDJerry]

I study Hung Gar and my sifu said it is normal to have stiff or sore knees especially during the first year(s) of training. The low stances work your quads and from what he said, that can cause the muscles to pull your knee cap in tighter than what you are used to. He said this is completely normal and is not harmful, just shows that you are doing your stances correctly.

There is a difference between stiffness/mild soreness and the pain you feel when something is torn though so if you still feel something is up just check with your doc.

[David Jamieson]

the pain will remain. you will be able to handle it better with continued practiced and continued correction of structure.

right now, your tendons are gaining strength and you are feeling it.

remember to rest!

[banditshaw]

I had chronic knee pain when I started Hung. My right knee had always been a problem since I had injured it playing Soccer as a youth. It would pop out at times and I would have to squat to pop it back in place.
The stancework was brutal and sometimes I could barely walk the stairs.
The pain eventually went away and to this day I haven't had the same kind of pain. My knees feel stronger actually.
Do what the others here have said and you should be ok.

[taai gihk yahn]

But first, we will need to invoke him into appearing. Gather the following items:
frankinsence, myhrr,quicksilver, cinnabar, cinnabuns, party hats and a rubber chicken.
Oh, and don't forget the clown shoes.
Then, at the stroke of twelve, noon I think...start chanting the mantra,
"ooheeeyo, ooooo-oooh"
then hope and wait....
oh and put on the party hat and clown shoes, otherwise he will not appear.

you forgot duck on a string, but as it's a Pastafarian holiday (when isn't it, I ask you!?), I'll cut you some slack;

ok, as for the knees - what it sounds like (and not having examined you or taken a thorough history I can't be sure, so it's really all conjecture based on probabilities), is that your quadriceps tendons are inflamed and irritating your knees; this would make sense given a) the fact that you recently began practicing something you never did before; b) the emphasis on isometric (static holding) and eccentric (controlled release) quad contractions that Hung style stance training encompasses; c) your weight; d) the fact that you are training 4-5 days / week

the one about which I personally would be the most concerned is the frequency - it seems a bit much, and not letting your body recover sufficiently can certainly produce the symptoms you are experiencing; and the painful movements you describe - sitting on the toilet, walking down stairs - these are all eccentric quad movements, which are the most difficult type of contraction to do and also the ones that produce the most delayed onset muscle soreness, so that's why they may be irritating;

so, if it were me, I might consider decreasing down to 3x / week - like M, W, F - give your body time to recover; stay well hydrated; talk to your doc about what sort of anti-inflammatories are right for you (e.g. - some cause stomach irritation); consider having some good bodywork / acupuncture done - that can help recovery time, also help loosen you up in general

again, this is all conjecture and just throwing some ideas out, not actually suggesting that you do any of the above or take to heart what i say - just some ideas to give you some venues to explore on your own, to pick the course that addresses your specific needs appropriately

[DMK]

Don't forget to do a good warm up as well and massage your knees before and sometimes after class. Hung gar requires low stance but do them gradually train smart knee injuries can wipe you out for 2 months. There is know hurry.

[kfman5F]

Don't forget to use dit da jow. It should really help. If you are not familiar with it, ask your Sifu. :)

[wetwonder]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful input.

Taii, I think you're right about the tendns/quads part. Good insight. I'm going to do three days a week for a while, with a rest day in between.

I told Sifu last night and he had me rub something onto my knees. It was a concoction of leaves and twigs soaking in water that I rubbed well into the tops of my knees. It really soothed them. It was like Ben-Gay, but without the odor. It had the faint smell of whiskey. I feel less pain today.

[Hardwork108]

Hi,

I started leariing Hung Gar recently. I am in the middle of first form. I've been going 4 to 5 times per week. Once I moved past the first horse stance segment and into the forward stances and unicorn stances, my legs muscles started to really bog down. Some nights they ached so much I couldn't sleep. This, I figured is normal while developing strenghth, and thus caused me no concern. In the last week, however, the tops of both knees are very tender whenever I bend them while bearing weight. For example, when I sit down on the toilet, the pain flares up until I am fully down. Also going down the stairs, bending, etc.

My Sifu is very very good about watching and ensuring my form. I started at 30 pounds overweight, and have now lost 7 pounds so far. Are my knees responding normally here? I haven't mentioned it to Sifu.

Thanks.

I would certainly say that you should tell your sifu about your knee problems while at the same time decrease the frequency of your training to 2 or 3 times a week until things improve. Your sifu may even be able to adjust your training until your knees get better without you having to decrease your weekly sessions.

If your problem is related to inflamation of knee ligaments then it may be a good idea to regularly take some Arnika drops in water. Arnika drops are available from your local (natural) pharmasist/drugstore. This medicine helped me a lot with my chronic tendon (shoulder) inflammation.

Someone also suggested that you use Dit Dai Jow. Try to get a good brand (perhaps from your local Chinatown) and don´t just massage it superficially but make sure that you take a some minutes to rub it in deep.


Good luck.:)

[Lucas]

It was like Ben-Gay, but without the odor. It had the faint smell of whiskey. I feel less pain today.

thar be the jow mon

[taai gihk yahn]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful input.

Taii, I think you're right about the tendns/quads part. Good insight. I'm going to do three days a week for a while, with a rest day in between.
you may be able to resume more intense training at some point, but recovery time is critical, especially at the beginning


I told Sifu last night and he had me rub something onto my knees. It was a concoction of leaves and twigs soaking in water that I rubbed well into the tops of my knees. It really soothed them. It was like Ben-Gay, but without the odor. It had the faint smell of whiskey. I feel less pain today.
sounds good; yeah, I forgot to mention using dit da jow, but obviously others didn't - certainly a useful thing to apply, if ti's well made;
also, this highlights the need to be very communicative w/your teacher regarding any pain / discomfort you have that goes beyond what one would expect to experience...

[tattooedmonk]

Corrective Exercise Training.

[SteveLau]

Wetwonder,

If you don't mind, pls tell us your age and your physical condition when you first started training Hung Gar. Have you been an athelete before that? After having suffered from several self-inflicted muscle injuries since year 2000, I can say that I have enough sports science knowledge to comment on the topic.

First, be careful of muscle soreness. Yes, I have heard of people before said that it is normal. I have believed so causally too for quite a long time. But what does normal means here? My current view is that even muscle soreness is a sign of muscle skeleton overuse injury though it is not serious. The danger here is when a student overlooks such symptom or even believes it is alright to have muscle soreness after exercise. There is a formal medical term for it - Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS). When one exercises well, muscle soreness should rarely occur. And that is true to me even I exercise three times per week.

Getting back to Hung Gar Knees, there was a classmate in a private school in which I learnt Hung Gar many years ago. He had good physique, and seemed to have previous MA training. He have said once that Hung Gar training makes his knee muscles very sore. These are the lower end of the quad muscles just above the knee. When he got to learn the second hand set (Tiger Crane Double Style Fist), I saw him once dropped to the floor on his knee at the ten tiger moves section. His knees were shakingly weak. And the Sifu said to him, "How did you train to such a state?" I think the training was wrong somewhere, and the Sifu was mainly to blame.

At the end, if you have soreness over a week, I strongly advise you to revise your training. May be you train too hard, too frequent, too much (in workout volume per week).



Take care,

KC
Hong Kong

[wetwonder]

Thanks Steve. I'm 45. I started at the beginning of December. I'm a competitive tennis player, pllaying about 5 times a week in the Spring/Summer/Fall. Tennis is about sprinting side to side and up and back, over and over. It doesn't do much that matches the deep stances of the Hung Ga, so the muscles that do that are not accustomed for it from tennis.

[SteveLau]

Wetwonder,

So if you are a competitive tennis player, your physical condition should be good. With regards to the moves of tennis and martial art, they have very much commonality. For instance, both players need to move often in different directions quickly and strongly. One difference is that tennis player needs to sprint over much longer distance in the court than MA player does. Also, you sd you do tennis 5 times per week in certain seasons. Well, then you probably have no time and energy to do other physcial demanding activity. Staying healthy is about the whole picture of one's life style. We all need to take rest and recuperate sometimes.



Take care,

KC
Hong Kong