View Full Version : Body weight exercises: how much weight?
Mr Punch
01-05-2009, 09:48 PM
I've seen the figure 60% of your body weight for the amount of weight you are moving in a standard push up. I've also seen 75% but the 60% is the one I've found most on the net. (I.e. at 80 kg BW I'm moving 48/60 kg in a push up.)
Anyone know where these figures come from and which is more reliable?
Also, does anyone have similar figures for
curls
chin ups
lunges
squats?
I know the last two may seem to be your whole bodyweight but of course, you're not actually lifting your legs...
sanjuro_ronin
01-06-2009, 06:52 AM
I've seen the figure 60% of your body weight for the amount of weight you are moving in a standard push up. I've also seen 75% but the 60% is the one I've found most on the net. (I.e. at 80 kg BW I'm moving 48/60 kg in a push up.)
Anyone know where these figures come from and which is more reliable?
Also, does anyone have similar figures for
curls
chin ups
lunges
squats?
I know the last two may seem to be your whole bodyweight but of course, you're not actually lifting your legs...
Not sure why you think it matters...
BW exercises can be either muscular endurance, in the over 20 rep scheme ( most fall into this) or they can be "muscle builders" in the 8-12 rep area or even power builders in the under 6 rep area ( for many, chins fall into one of these categories).
In BW exercises, how many reps is the key factor.
Now, you can always play with adding weights such as a weighted vest or a weight belt.
BW exercises results depend on the initial level of strength/fitness.
for beginners in my school they have tended to be power and muscle builders at first as they can only do low reps but then over a month or three as they get in to the higher rep range of 20-25 they are strictly endurance/fitness and cardio exercises.
I had a student get stuck in the BW rythm, she like the mental zone she got in doing 'rounds' and could do 10-15 w/o even breaking much of a sweat...i kept telling her she needed to change up and add weight via weight vest and/or add weight training...she didn't and was seriously lacking in power and speed after 3.5 years of doing just the BW workout...she had awesome cardio though.
Mr Punch
01-06-2009, 06:03 PM
Not sure why you think it matters...Partly, I think it doesn't matter: just plain old curiosity.
But partly because, as I'm weight-training (and BW training) mostly for rehab, I have got somewhat obsessive about numbers: the stats of what I'm doing. This has a useful purpose in that I can see the progress I am making and sometimes just comparing my improvements on certain days with the amount of pain I'm feeling (or not feeling) it helps me to continue. Anal obsessiveness is quite a common function of chronic pain I would think!
I always aim to add weight to my BW exercises when I've reached a certain level (that of being able to do n reps without feeling it), and overall, if on a bad day no other stats are available I count the total volume of my lifts. On some workout days I do one more BW exercise and one less weighted exercise, and it is for those numbers that I was wondering if anyone knew or could point me to a site.
Don't get me wrong - the bottom line is: I'm bored at work in the middle of writing a report and a thought it was an interesting question the board hadn't seen yet! :D :D :D
how many sets/reps are you doing?...the one thing I found out about the BW stuff is that too many reps leads to tendon issues...especially as one [cough] advances with age...I was doing the 'workout 1' from trainforstrength.com for several months and the pushup pyramid has you doing something like 156 pushups total...I've often wondering if just doing 1 set of each exercise to failure and just keeping doing it to failure until you can do 100 or so in a row is enough reps for any motion.
for me, and the students of mine that I've watched do 'workout 1' for several months, it seems that once you could do that particular workout fully as he describes it two or three times a week w/ no DOMS or other issues you've maxed it (and I think any BW program) w/o adding the weight vest and could just drop back to once a week while moving on to other workouts for power.
Mr Punch
01-06-2009, 11:28 PM
how many sets/reps are you doing?...the one thing I found out about the BW stuff is that too many reps leads to tendon issues...especially as one [cough] advances with age...I was doing the 'workout 1' from trainforstrength.com for several months and the pushup pyramid has you doing something like 156 pushups total...I've often wondering if just doing 1 set of each exercise to failure and just keeping doing it to failure until you can do 100 or so in a row is enough reps for any motion.
for me, and the students of mine that I've watched do 'workout 1' for several months, it seems that once you could do that particular workout fully as he describes it two or three times a week w/ no DOMS or other issues you've maxed it (and I think any BW program) w/o adding the weight vest and could just drop back to once a week while moving on to other workouts for power.Thanks for the input... I'm really not as advanced in age as, say, you, though am I, Matt?! :p
I'm not actually worried about how many BW exercises or the quality of them... more really just wondering about how much weight they count as effectively.
But just FTR, I'm varying them depending on what my programme says!
One w/o: warm-ups include say 10 or so lunges (BW only), 10 T-push-ups, then the workout proper has chin-ups (always to failure for me cos I can't get the reps yet :eek: , but increasing... supposed to be 3 x 12 for two weeks, then 3 x 10, then 3 x 8; T-push-ups 3 x 12 then 3 x 10 then 3 x 8, started with nothing, now up to 10 kg dbs...
sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2009, 06:34 AM
how many sets/reps are you doing?...the one thing I found out about the BW stuff is that too many reps leads to tendon issues...especially as one [cough] advances with age...I was doing the 'workout 1' from trainforstrength.com for several months and the pushup pyramid has you doing something like 156 pushups total...I've often wondering if just doing 1 set of each exercise to failure and just keeping doing it to failure until you can do 100 or so in a row is enough reps for any motion.
for me, and the students of mine that I've watched do 'workout 1' for several months, it seems that once you could do that particular workout fully as he describes it two or three times a week w/ no DOMS or other issues you've maxed it (and I think any BW program) w/o adding the weight vest and could just drop back to once a week while moving on to other workouts for power.
Quite correct, excessive amount of use in any range of motion can lead to joint and tendon issues such as tendonitus, carpal tunnel and impingments, especially in the rotator cuffs/shoulder areas.
Doing 100 reps of something with NO WEIGHT can be more "wear and tear" than doing 5 with serious amoutn of weights.
Repetitive motion injuries and wear n tear are something that people should be well aware off.
Besides, the body doesn't need to do so much to get muscle memory or even get "good at it".
Studies done show that, for long term muscle AND memory retention that less resp over a long period of time is th ebest way to go.
For short term retention, many reps over a shoer period of time does the trick.
Makes sense health wise too.
sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2009, 06:36 AM
Oh and if you do train to failure there is NO REASON to train beyond it.
If you max out at 77 reps doing push ups and you can't do any more, at all, resting and doing more will have very little effect.
no, Mr. Punch, you aren't as advanced in age as I am :(:p
as far as determining how much weight they count as...I don't think it matters because ultimately, BW exercises are really only good for increasing initial fitness level from a sub standard level (what I promote them for to my students walking in for the first time), increasing endurance, and I'm sure ReHab as you are using them.
Oh and if you do train to failure there is NO REASON to train beyond it.
If you max out at 77 reps doing push ups and you can't do any more, at all, resting and doing more will have very little effect.
yea, I wasn't going to...what I've been thinking about is adding one set of the most common exercises at the end of my M/W/Sat days.
Mr Punch
01-07-2009, 06:20 PM
as far as determining how much weight they count as...I don't think it matters because ultimately, BW exercises are really only good for increasing initial fitness level from a sub standard level ... increasing endurance, and I'm sure ReHab as you are using them.
Really? I think there are core strength gains to be had, I think they have a use in warming down and warming up (inc as a part of a heavy weights routine), and ultimately there is always a progression: push-ups, weighted push-ups, variations (also then with weights), plosive variations... there are always ways you can improve with BW exercises too. For example, I don't think I can do ten plosive decline push-ups with twenty kilos on my back yet! ... or... erm... one! :eek: :D
Hence, as part of an integrated programme I think it's reasonable to work out how much weight they're 'worth'. Maybe I'm nuts.:o
Really?
maybe...I dunno...I'm not an expert, just saying what I think.
but, yea, there are surely core strength gains to be had but again, only to a point unless you gain weight while doing them...and I think that using BW exercises in low reps to warm up or warm down kinda goes w/o saying...but, warmups and warmdowns aren't ever counted for the workout volume...are they?
if you add weight via a weight vest (or your 5 year old sittin on yer back) it isn't really BW exercises anymore...is it?
the thing about BW exercises that is best about them is that they are usually compound exercises.
my point being that they are great and awesome...to a point, then you need to move on to other stuff (as martial artists, 'power' stuff like much of the crossfit style of exercises) but it's still good to do BW stuff as part of an overall program.
Mr Punch
01-07-2009, 07:32 PM
maybe...I dunno...I'm not an expert, just saying what I think.
but, yea, there are surely core strength gains to be had but again, only to a point unless you gain weight while doing them...and I think that using BW exercises in low reps to warm up or warm down kinda goes w/o saying...but, warmups and warmdowns aren't ever counted for the workout volume...are they?
if you add weight via a weight vest (or your 5 year old sittin on yer back) it isn't really BW exercises anymore...is it?...All good points. Probably a completely redundant thread! I'll shut up now. Where's the **** coffee...
coffee??? oh, yea...12 hours away...I'm on beer now :D
btw, my students ended up someplace in the stix...the closest thing to them is a kendo school...but, they don't have the dollars for the equipment and apparently you can't borrow...they say they are walking regularly but have to step around a lot of pig and cow crap...
GunnedDownAtrocity
01-07-2009, 10:02 PM
pushups = 0lbs
pushups with 2 plates on back = 90lbs
dips = 0lbs
dips with 2 plates = 90lbs
chins = 0lbs
chis with 2 plates = holyshtsickles u is strong
Mr Punch
01-07-2009, 10:08 PM
Is that like, dinner plates or side plates?
Mr Punch
01-07-2009, 10:18 PM
coffee??? oh, yea...12 hours away...I'm on beer now :DWish I was! They don't let me drink at school.
btw, my students ended up someplace in the stix...the closest thing to them is a kendo school...but, they don't have the dollars for the equipment and apparently you can't borrow...they say they are walking regularly but have to step around a lot of pig and cow crap...Kendo equipment is big dollar. In some schools they just make you train with no armour if you don't buy it - though the full contact is, I hope, out. Let them know to get in touch if they're ever in the Big Mikan, and I'll hook em up with some training/conviviality.
re: GDA's post and my earlier question: you can't really consider anything normally considered to be a body weight exercise still a BWE once you start adding weight...right? It would still most likely be a compound exercise which is good but not justa BW ??? serious question though I might just be @nal about definitions.
Mr. P: I don't think they are moving around much but if I find out they are I'll find out if they are going to be close. I didn't really think they were going to be too agressive about finding a place to train after moving but you have to encourage them to anyway.
sanjuro_ronin
01-08-2009, 06:35 AM
pushups = 0lbs
pushups with 2 plates on back = 90lbs
dips = 0lbs
dips with 2 plates = 90lbs
chins = 0lbs
chis with 2 plates = holyshtsickles u is strong
Never used push-ups for anything other than warm ups...
Dips, I have done them for 5 x5 with 110lbs - I like dips.
Chins, the most I have done was with 100lbs for 3 reps x 5.
I am a stronger pusher than puller.
GunnedDownAtrocity
01-08-2009, 11:14 AM
re: GDA's post and my earlier question: you can't really consider anything normally considered to be a body weight exercise still a BWE once you start adding weight...right?
i might be misunderstanding the question, but such exerceses are simply referred to as weighted dips, pushups, etc. weighted dips - 70lbs - 3x8.
unless your a badass like sanjuro. then you'd run out of plates for your chins and have to start attaching chains, babies, and dentures.
sanjuro_ronin
01-08-2009, 12:11 PM
i might be misunderstanding the question, but such exerceses are simply referred to as weighted dips, pushups, etc. weighted dips - 70lbs - 3x8.
unless your a badass like sanjuro. then you'd run out of plates for your chins and have to start attaching chains, babies, and dentures.
"Badass like Sanjuro WAS..."
:(
Last time I did them, and this was 2 months ago, I did dipes with 50lbs 5 x 5 and chins with 25lbs- 5 x 5 .
:(
i might be misunderstanding the question, but such exerceses are simply referred to as weighted dips, pushups, etc. weighted dips - 70lbs - 3x8.
unless your a badass like sanjuro. then you'd run out of plates for your chins and have to start attaching chains, babies, and dentures.
what I'm trying to get at is that, if we are talking about the benefits of BW exercises, the once you start adding weight you are not technically doing BW anymore so it means something else...what I'm not sure, besides then applying normal rules or standards of resistance exercises
sanjuro_ronin
01-08-2009, 01:04 PM
BW exercises are "pure strength" builders only if you can only do less than 3 reps of them.
For the vast majority of people BW exercises are about muscular endurance and IF you do them in a circuit type routine, cardiovascular endurance.
right, that's what I was trying to say upstream...
that's why I think they are a great first step for people, especially the average (meaning sub-average in strength) person walking in to a ma school for the first time.
just introduced my newest student on to Fish's website last night after doing the leg portion of Workout #1 in class....before bag kicking of course ;)
Mr Punch
01-08-2009, 06:11 PM
Yeah, I understand all that about pure strength and reps and whatever, and about technically it not being bodyweight when you add weight... Not wishing to be churlish here, but I don't give a fiddler's flying ****, gentlemen, whether it's technically BW or not.
My question goes like this:
I want to know when I do chins, how much weight are my arms pulling up?
When I do push-ups, how much weight are my arms pushing up?
I appreciate, as I said, it's a kind of pointless question, and I see GDA's point that it's zero until you add weight. But please, as you were, gentlemen, feel free to agree on things that we all hopefully know to be true by now!
:)
Pullups: your bodyweight x .5 per arm
Pushups: put a scale under each hand...but, it's going to change between the bottom and the top...more at the bottom and less at the top..i think...
troll...you realize you didn't phrase it very well in your first post don't you?
;)
:p
My question goes like this:
I want to know when I do chins, how much weight are my arms pulling up?
When I do push-ups, how much weight are my arms pushing up?I dunno, can't you sort of estimate it by comparing to a known quantity? E.g. do a pushup, then compare it to how much it feels like when benching. I reckon you could get within 5kg on the bench. I warm up for bench with 60kg, because that's what my bar + 2 plates + no collars weighs (and that's what I always leave on it) and that feels similar to a pushup IIRC (don't do many pushups these days). With chins IIRC it felt like about 3/4 of the full stack on the lat pulldown machine at the old gym I used to go to (obviously there's some mechanical advantage going on so it's not 1kg on the machine == 1kg lifted).
bakxierboxer
01-08-2009, 11:42 PM
.... I did dipes with 50lbs.... :(
That seems obsessive.
???????
You were referring to diapers, right?
Don't let the new(ish) kid get to ya!
GunnedDownAtrocity
01-09-2009, 07:33 AM
what I'm trying to get at is that, if we are talking about the benefits of BW exercises, the once you start adding weight you are not technically doing BW anymore so it means something else...what I'm not sure, besides then applying normal rules or standards of resistance exercises
oh ok yeah . . . once you start adding weight i'd consider it a weight lifting exercise.
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