A message for Humanity...

[MAX]

Oh , man .. Wherever you are , and however you are ..
You are a HUMAN , having eyes , heart and mind ..
Look what happened , going on and will be to happened ..
Look at the blood being shed ..




Lookt at th tears being shed ..
Look at the body parts scattered .. It is the remains people like you ..




Do you see your hand ?? there are who lost it ..
Do you see your eyes ?? there are who disappearnce it ..
Do you understand what I say in your mind ?? there is who lost his head which has a mind like you ..
Yes , man ..
That is what happened in Gaza and is still happened for a moment ..




That is happened for Gaza people ..
No house .. No Family .. No life ..




Did you see that ??


Is this HUMANITY ???
Please , just answer me .. don't think too much ..
All religions DENY that ..
Why you are looking for reasons , is there any justifications for this massacre ??
Is there any justifications to bomb an unarmed people with aircraft ??
Is there any justifications to kill babies ??
My brother .. My sister ..
Now , while you reading my words , there are who dead .. distort .. blooding .. any more things you can't imagine it .
Maybe in this moment who lost his parents .. her husband , their children .




May be there are many houses destroyed ..
All that happened and the world have been silent ..
No one doing any thing to stop this massacre ..
So , have you accept this ?? Do you want to continue in silence??
I believe in your strong .. I believe in your word ..
Any idea from your humanity can change the situation , and the history will tell that about you .
Let's go ,
Go and EXPRESS your refusal ..
HELP people in GAZA
HELP them with your strong ..
HELP them with your WORD ..

http://www.arb-up.com/files/arb-up-2008-6/dZJ41104.jpg

[WinterPalm]

My tax dollars go to support stuff like that in Afghanistan...but nobody can help em but themselves.

[WinterPalm]

Oh yeah, this is a bit off topic and sure to lead to some great dialogue. :D

[IronWeasel]

Is there any justifications to bomb an unarmed people with aircraft ??




If said people allow Hamas to attack civilian targets unchecked, then...yes.

[BoulderDawg]

If you listen to the Israelis talk you would think they are getting bombed into the stone age......I have my doubts about any of that. For it seems strange to me that Hamas is dropping hundreds of bombs on Israel but there is no property damage to speak of or deaths.

[IronWeasel]

If you listen to the Israelis talk you would think they are getting bombed into the stone age......I have my doubts about any of that. For it seems strange to me that Hamas is dropping hundreds of bombs on Israel but there is no property damage to speak of or deaths.


I agree...

Except that there has been property damage, and deaths.

[Drake]

Come on.... you fire hundreds of rockets into Israel... wtf do you expect? Peaceful dialogue with a group that has already said they favor self-destruction over peace?

I blame the residents of Gaza for supporting Hamas and rejecting a path to peace. Most of them facilitated Hamas in some way, be it moral or material support. This is a case of action-reaction, and Hamas clearly favors self-destruction based on their actions, and seem completely fine with large civilian casualties as a result of ATTACKING A SUPERIOR MILITARY FORCE FROM A SUPPORTIVE POPULATION CENTER, INCLUDING SCHOOLS

[Lucas]

another message for humanity (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52889)

[sanjuro_ronin]

People reap what they sow.

[SimonM]

I agree...

Except that there has been property damage, and deaths.

Like... FOUR deaths.

Compared to HUNDREDS of dead Palestinian civilians.

Hamas are a bunch of jerks but as long as Israel acts like a bunch of NAZIS (there, I said it, Israel is a Nazi state) and as long as the world keeps patting Israel on the back for being a bunch of GENOCIDAL thugs, the Palestinians aren't going to give those fvcktards in Hamas the boot...

Because they are the only ones trying to stand up for the Palestinian people.

Fvck the nazi state of Israel.

Tzipi Livini is scum, total scum.

[uki]

Like... FOUR deaths.

Compared to HUNDREDS of dead Palestinian civilians.

Hamas are a bunch of jerks but as long as Israel acts like a bunch of NAZIS (there, I said it, Israel is a Nazi state) and as long as the world keeps patting Israel on the back for being a bunch of GENOCIDAL thugs, the Palestinians aren't going to give those fvcktards in Hamas the boot...

Because they are the only ones trying to stand up for the Palestinian people.

Fvck the nazi state of Israel.

Tzipi Livini is scum, total scum.wow. i couldn't agree with you more.

[Drake]

Like... FOUR deaths.

Compared to HUNDREDS of dead Palestinian civilians.

Hamas are a bunch of jerks but as long as Israel acts like a bunch of NAZIS (there, I said it, Israel is a Nazi state) and as long as the world keeps patting Israel on the back for being a bunch of GENOCIDAL thugs, the Palestinians aren't going to give those fvcktards in Hamas the boot...

Because they are the only ones trying to stand up for the Palestinian people.

Fvck the nazi state of Israel.

Tzipi Livini is scum, total scum.

Hamas is using human shields. Get your blame right. I think Hamas would've liked to have a higher body count. Also, they don't aim at military targets. Hamas just fires rockets and land where they may. Should we wait until a lucky rocket attack hits a day care center at nap time before we condemn Hamas? If we wait a little longer, they could even hit an orphanage or high school, seeing as they don't bother with silly things like geneva conventions or law of war. Maybe we should let them kill a few more civilians in order to get the body count up there. I know, I say we give Hamas advanced weapons so we can see what they would LIKE to do to Israel. It's a fact, if Hamas could, they'd kill every Israeli there, allowing them to wipe Israel off the map, as they often claim their intent is.

Didn't you condemn waterboarding in another thread? It's ok to fire rockets at whatever, and they are persecuted over it, but dunking someone is water is brutal torture? You are confused.

[SimonM]

Whatever.

I'm not a fan of Hamas but trying to blame them for Israel BLOWING UP SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS FULL OF CIVILIAN NON-COMBATTANTS is bullcrap.

[Drake]

Whatever.

I'm not a fan of Hamas but trying to blame them for Israel BLOWING UP SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS FULL OF CIVILIAN NON-COMBATTANTS is bullcrap.

Because Hamas clearly wasn't firing rockets from a school. They would never do such a dastardly thing! FYI... geneva conventions permit atacking protected buildings if the enemy is using them as a means to attack.

[SimonM]

Even if Hamas was using a school,
Even if the Geneva conventions allowed an attack,
Killing hundreds to avenge four is still WRONG.

[taai gihk yahn]

it all sucks; there is blame to go around on both sides; it's not a matter of degree - even one innocent child dying on either side is too many; the shortsightedness of those in power is astounding: both Israel and Hamas are "training" the next generation of traumatized haters; of course, some would probably prefer to see a state of perpetual conflict...

[BoulderDawg]

Like... FOUR deaths.

Compared to HUNDREDS of dead Palestinian civilians.

Doesn't it seem strange that Hamas has fired hundreds and hundreds (I think I read over 500!) into Israel and yet there has only been four deaths.....That doesn't sound right. Just the law of averages says you're going to kill more people than that.

Especially if you are "targeting" civilians!:D

[SimonM]

It's all just a flimsy excuse for Israel to pursue their pogrom.

[Drake]

Even if Hamas was using a school,
Even if the Geneva conventions allowed an attack,
Killing hundreds to avenge four is still WRONG.

I wouldn't count a population that supports, morally and materially, a terrorist organization that indiscriminately attacks innocent people based on their religion, as being all that innocent. They don't exactly reject Hamas, and in fact, most support them. Again, saying that the Israelis were lucky enough to only lose 4 citizens before they finally acted does not mean they should respond. Diplomacy clearly doesn't work with these guys. There isn't any other option here.

[SimonM]

Like... FOUR deaths.

Compared to HUNDREDS of dead Palestinian civilians.

Hamas are a bunch of jerks but as long as Israel acts like a bunch of NAZIS (there, I said it, Israel is a Nazi state) and as long as the world keeps patting Israel on the back for being a bunch of GENOCIDAL thugs, the Palestinians aren't going to give those fvcktards in Hamas the boot...

Because they are the only ones trying to stand up for the Palestinian people.

Fvck the nazi state of Israel.

Tzipi Livini is scum, total scum.

Yeah, like I already said...

[WinterPalm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqhoCj4uFfQ

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cGqroT1FZ5Y

[David Jamieson]

hmmm


Apr 6, 1994 - Eight people were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 13, 1994 - Five people were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 19, 1994 - In a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel-Aviv, 21 Israelis and one Dutch national were killed.

Nov 11, 1994 - Three soldiers were killed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip when a Palestinian riding a bicycle detonated explosives strapped to his body. Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge the car bomb killing of Islamic Jihad leader Hani Abed on Nov 2.

Jan 22, 1995 - Two consecutive bombs exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, killing 20 soldiers and one civilian. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 9, 1995 - Seven Israelis and one American were killed when a bus was hit by an explosives-laden van near Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jul 24, 1995 - Six civilians were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in Ramat Gan.

Aug 21, 1995 - Three Israelis and one American were killed in a suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus.

Feb 25, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, 26 were killed (17 civilians and 9 soldiers). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 25, 1996 - One Israeli was killed in an explosion set off by a suicide bomber at a hitchhiking post oustide Ashkelon. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 3, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, 19 were killed (16 civilians and 3 soldiers).

Mar 4, 1996 - Outside Dizengoff Center in Tel-Aviv, a suicide bomber detonated a 20-kilogram nail bomb, killing 13 (12 civilians and one soldier).

Mar 21, 1997 - Three people were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb on the terrace of a Tel Aviv cafe. 48 people were wounded.

Jul 30, 1997 - 16 people were killed and 178 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem.

Sep 4, 1997 - Five people were killed and 181 wounded in three suicide bombings on the Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem.

Oct 29, 1998 - One Israeli soldier was killed when a terrorist drove an explosives-laden car into an Israeli army jeep escorting a bus with 40 elementary school students from the settlement of Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip.

Nov 2, 2000 - Ayelet Shahar Levy, 28, and Hanan Levy, 33, were killed in a car bomb explosion near the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem. 10 people were injured. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 20, 2000 - A roadside bomb exploded at 7:30 in the morning alongside a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. Miriam Amitai, 35, and Gavriel Biton, 34, were killed and 9 others, including 5 children, were injured, 5 of them seriously.

Nov 22, 2000 - Shoshanna Reis, 21, of Hadera, and Meir Bahrame, 35, of Givat Olga, were killed, and 60 wounded when a powerful car bomb was denotated alongside a passing bus on Hadera's main street, when the area was packed with shoppers and people driving home from work.

Dec 22, 2000 - Three soldiers were injured in a suicide bomb attack at the Mehola Junction roadside cafe in the northern Jordan Valley. The terrorist, who detonated a belt of explosives strapped to him, was killed in the blast.


well? commentary?

[David Jamieson]

and..........


Jan 1, 2001 - A car bomb exploded near a bus stop in the shopping district in the center of Netanya. About 60 people were injured, most lightly. One unidentified person, apparently one of the terrorists involved in the bombing, died of severe burns. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 8, 2001 - A powerful car bomb exploded at 4:40 PM in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Beit Yisrael in Jerusalem, causing mild injuries to four people.

Feb 14, 2001 - Eight people were killed and 25 injured when a bus driven by a Palestinian terrorist plowed into a group of soldiers and civilians waiting at a bus stop near Holon, south of Tel-Aviv.

Mar 1, 2001 - One person was killed and 9 injured when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a Tel Aviv to Tiberias service taxi at the Mei Ami junction in Wadi Ara.

Mar 4, 2001 - Three people were killed and at least 60 injured in a suicide bombing in downtown Netanya.

Mar 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at 7:40 in the morning in the Talpiot industrial/commercial zone in Jerusalem. Seven people were injured, one moderately. The Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 27, 2001 - 28 people were injured, two seriously, in a suicide bombing directed against a northbound No. 6 bus at the French Hill junction in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 28, 2001 - Two teenagers were killed and four injured, one critically, in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 22, 2001 - A terrorist detonated a powerful bomb he was carrying near a group of people waiting at a bus stop on the corner of Weizman and Tchernichovsky streets in Kfar Sava. One person was killed and about 60 injured in the blast, two severely. The terrorist was also killed in the explosion, for which Hamas claimed responsibility.

Apr 23, 2001 - Eight people were lightly hurt in a car bombing in Or Yehuda, a few kilometers north of Ben-Gurion Airport, which senior police officers said could only be described as a "miracle" in an area packed with pre-Independence Day shoppers.

Apr 29, 2001 - A car bomb blew up close to a school bus travelling near the West Bank city of Nablus. There were no injuries in the attack. The body of the suicide bomber was found in the car. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 18, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber wearing an explosive vest detonated himself outside the Hasharon Shopping Mall in the seaside city of Netanya. Five civilians were killed and over 100 wounded in the attack. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 25, 2001 - 65 people were injured in a car bombing in the Hadera central bus station. The two terrorists were apparently killed in the explosion. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

May 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded in the center of Jerusalem shortly after midnight. There were no injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility.
A bomb exploded at 9:00 in the morning near the intersection of the capital's main Jaffa Road and Heshin Street. The bomb included several mortar shells, some of which were propelled hundreds of meters from the site of the explosion. 30 people were injured, most suffering from shock. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

May 30, 2001 - A car bomb exploded shortly before 16:00 outside a school in Netanya while a number of students were still in the building studying for matriculation exams. Eight people were injured, suffering from shock and hearing impairment. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

June 1, 2001 - 21 people were killed and 120 wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday, June 1, while standing in a large group of teenagers waiting to enter the disco.

June 22, 2001 - Sgt. Aviv Iszak, 19, of Kfar Saba, and Sgt. Ofir Kit, 19, of Jerusalem, were killed near Dugit in the Gaza Strip as a jeep with yellow Israeli license plates, supposedly stuck in the sand, blew up as they approached. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 2, 2001 - Two separate bombs exploded at about 8:20 Monday morning in cars in the Tel-Aviv suburb of Yehud. Six pedestrians were lightly injured. Police sources say the bombs were probably set by terrorists. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a radical PLO faction, claimed responsibility.

July 9, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber was killed in a car-bombing attack near the Kissufim crossing point in the southern Gaza Strip, causing no other casualties. Disaster was averted as the bomb exploded without hitting any other vehicles. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 16, 2001 - Cpl. Hanit Arami, 19, and St.Sgt. Avi Ben Harush, 20, both of Zichron Yaakov, were killed and 11 wounded - 3 seriously - when a bomb exploded in a suicide terrorist attack at a bus stop near the train station in Binyamina, halfway between Netanya and Haifa, at about 19:30 Monday evening. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 8, 2001 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated his car bomb, lightly wounding one soldier, at a roadblock near the B'kaot moshav in the northern Jordan Valley shortly after 9:00. One soldier was lightly wounded.

Aug 9, 2001 - 15 people were killed, including 7 children, and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 12, 2001 - 21 people were injured in a suicide bombing in the Wall Street Cafe in the center of Kiryat Motzkin at 17:30. The terrorist was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 21, 2001 - A bomb placed under a car exploded at 14:15 near the Russian Compound in downtown Jerusalem; one woman was treated for shock. A second, very large unexploded bomb was discovered inside the car and dismantled.

Sept 4, 2001 - 20 people were injured when a suicide terrorist exploded a powerful charge on Hanevi'im Street near Bikur Holim hospital in central Jerusalem shortly before 8:00 AM. The terrorist, disguised as a Jew in ultra-orthodox clothing, aroused the suspicion of passersby due to the large backpack he was wearing. As two Border Police officers approached the man, he detonated his shrapnel-packed bomb. Both officers were wounded - one critically. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Hamas claimed responsibility.

Sept 9, 2001 - Three people were killed and some 90 injured, most lightly, in a suicide bombing near the Nahariya train station in northern Israel. The terrorist, killed in the blast, waited nearby until the train arrived from Tel-Aviv and people were exiting the station, and then exploded the bomb he was carrying. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, injuring 17 people. One person killed in the explosion is believed to be the terrorist bomber.

Oct 1, 2001 - A large car bomb exploded in the Talpiot neighborhood of Jerusalem. Several people were lightly injured.

Oct 7, 2001 - Yair Mordechai, 43, of Kibbutz Sheluhot was killed when a Palestinian suicide terrorist affiliated with the Islamic Jihad detonated a large bomb strapped to his body near the entrance of the kibbutz in the Beit She'an Valley.

Nov 26, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed himself and lightly wounded two Border Policemen at the Erez crossing point in the Gaza Strip. The bomber joined workers waiting to be cleared for entry into Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 29, 2001 - Three people were killed and nine others were wounded in a suicide bombing on an Egged 823 bus en route from Nazereth to Tel Aviv near the city of Hadera. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 1, 2001 - 11 people were killed and about 180 injured when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem. A car bomb exploded nearby 20 minutes later. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 2, 2001 - 15 people were killed and 40 injured, several critically, in a suicide bombing on an Egged bus No. 16 in Haifa shortly after 12:00. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 5, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb shortly after 7:30 AM on King David Street in Jerusalem. A number of people waiting at a nearby bus stop were lightly injured. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Police are investigating whether the bomb, packed with nails and shrapnel, went off prematurely. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Dec 9, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb near a bus stop at the Checkpost Junction in Haifa shortly after 7:30 AM. About 30 people were injured, most lightly and suffering from shock. A second explosive device was found and detonated nearby. The terrorist was killed.

Dec 12, 2001 - Four people traveling in two cars were lightly wounded in an attack at 18:00 PM by two suicide bombers near the Gaza Strip community of Neve Dekalim.

[David Jamieson]

and.........


Jan 25, 2002 - 25 people were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated explosives outside a cafe on a pedestrian mall near Tel Aviv's old central bus station at 11:15 AM on Friday.

Jan 27, 2002 - Pinhas Tokatli, 81, of Jerusalem was killed and over 150 people were wounded, four seriously, in a suicide bombing on Jaffa Road, in the center of Jerusalem, shortly before 12:30. The female terrorist, identified as a Fatah member, was armed with more than 10 kilos of explosives.

Feb 16, 2002 - Two teenagers were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. A third person subsequently died of his injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 18, 2002 - Policeman Ahmed Mazarib, 32, of the Bedouin village Beit Zarzir in the Galilee, was killed by a suicide bomber whom he had stopped for questioning on the Ma'ale Adumim-Jerusalem road. The terrorist succeeded in detonating the bomb in his car. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 27, 2002 - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up at the Maccabim roadblock on the Jerusalem-Modi'in highway Wednesday night, injuring three policemen.

Mar 2, 2002 - Eleven people were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

Mar 5, 2002 - Maharatu Tagana, 85, of Upper Nazareth was killed and a large number of people injured, most lightly, when a suicide bomber exploded in an Egged No. 823 bus as it entered the Afula central bus station. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 7, 2002 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the lobby of a hotel in the commericial center on the outskirts of Ariel in Samaria. 15 people were injured, one seriously. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 9, 2002 - 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded at 22:30 PM Saturday night in the crowded Moment cafe at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets in the Rehavia neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 17, 2002 - A suicide bomber exploded himself near an Egged bus no. 22 at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 25 people were lightly injured.

Mar 20, 2002 - Seven people, four of them soldiers, were killed and about 30 wounded, several seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus No. 823 traveling from Tel Aviv to Nazareth at the Musmus junction on Highway 65 (Wadi Ara) near Afula. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 21, 2002 - Three people were killed and 86 injured, 3 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing on King George Street in the center of Jerusalem. The terrorist detonated the bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers. The Fatah al-Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 27, 2002 - 30 people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The terrorist was a member of Hamas from Tulkarem, on the list of wanted terrorists Israel had requested be arrested.

Mar 29, 2002 - Two people were killed and 28 injured, two seriously when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2002 - One person was killed and about 30 people were injured in a suicide bombing in a cafe on the corner of Allenby and Bialik streets in Tel-Aviv. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 31, 2002 - 15 people were killed and over 40 injured in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 31, 2002 - An MDA paramedic was very seriously injured along with three other people at 17:00 Sunday afternoon in a suicide bombing at the emergency medical center in Efrat, in the Gush Etzion bloc south of Jerusalem.

Apr 1, 2002 - A police officer was killed in Jerusalem when a Palestinian suicide bomber heading toward the city center blew himself up in his car after being stopped at a roadblock. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 10, 2002 - Eight people were killed and 22 injured in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #960, en route from Haifa to Jerusalem, which exploded near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 12, 2002 - Six people were killed and 104 wounded when a woman suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge at a bus stop on Jaffa road at the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 7, 2002 - 16 people were killed and 55 wounded in a crowded game club in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv, when a suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge in the 3rd floor club, causing part of the building to collapse. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 19, 2002 - Three people were killed and 59 injured - 10 seriously - when a suicide bomber, disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.

May 20, 2002 - A suicide bomber, apparently bound for Afula, killed himself after Border Policemen approached him for questioning at a bus stop. There were no other injuries.

May 22, 2002 - Two people were killed and about 40 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.

[David Jamieson]

and........


May 23, 2002 - A bomb planted by terrorists exploded underneath a fuel truck at the Pi Glilot fuel depot north of Tel Aviv. The truck burst into flames, but the blaze was quickly contained.

May 24, 2002 - A security guard opened fire on a terrorist attempting to ram a car bomb into the Studio 49 Disco in Tel Aviv. The terrorist was killed and five Israelis slightly injured when the bomb exploded prematurely.

May 27, 2002 - A grandmother and her infant granddaughter were killed and 37 people were injured, some seriously, when a suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 5, 2002 - 17 people were killed and 38 injured when a car packed with a large quantity of explosives struck Egged bus No. 830 traveling from Tel-Aviv to Tiberias at the Megiddo junction near Afula. The bus, which burst into flames, was completely destroyed. The terrorist was killed in the blast. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 11, 2002 - A 14-year-old girl was killed and 15 others were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.

June 18, 2002 - 19 people were killed and 74 injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 19, 2002 - Seven people were killed and 50 injured - three of them in critical condition - when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem shortly after 7:00 P.M., as people were returning home from work. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 16, 2002 - Nine people were killed and 20 injured in a terrorist attack on Dan bus no. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel in Samaria. An explosive charge was detonated next to the bullet-resistant bus. The terrorists waited in ambush, reportedly wearing IDF uniforms, and opened fire on the bus. While four terror organizations claimed responsibility for the attack, it was apparently carried out by the same Hamas cell which carried out the attack in Emmanuel on Dec 12, 2001.

July 17, 2002 - Five people were killed - two Israeli and three foreign workers - and about 40 were injured, four seriously, in a double suicide bombing on Neve Shaanan Street near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 30, 2002 - Five people suffered light to moderate injuries in a suicide bombing at a felafel stand on Hanevi'im Street in the center of Jerusalem. The bomber, who was killed, apparently exploded prematurely.

July 31, 2002 - Nine people were killed and 85 wounded, 14 of them seriously, when a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus. The explosive device was planted inside the cafeteria, which was gutted by the explosion. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 4, 2002 - Nine people were killed and some 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of Egged bus No. 361 traveling from Haifa to Safed at the Meron junction in northern Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 5, 2002 - A bomb exploded in a car at the Umm al-Fahm junction in northern Israel, killing the terrorist and wounding the driver, an Arab Israeli resident of Nazareth.

Sept 18, 2002 - Police Sgt. Moshe Hezkiyah, 21, of Elyachin was killed and three people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Umm al Fahm junction. The terrorist, who was apparently planning to detonate the bomb after boarding a bus, set the charge off early when approached by the police for questioning. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 19, 2002 - Six people were killed and about 70 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb in Dan bus No. 4 on Allenby Street, opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsbility for the attack.

Oct 10, 2002 - Sa'ada Aharon, 71, of Ramat Gan was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board Dan bus No. 87 across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway (Route 4). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 21, 2002 - 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera. The bus had pulled over at a bus stop when the suicide bomber, from Jenin, driving a jeep, approached from behind and exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 27, 2002 - Two IDF officers and a non-commissioned officer were killed and about 20 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at the Sonol gas station at the entrance to Ariel in Samaria. The victims were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. The terrorist was identified as a member of Hamas.

Nov 4, 2002 - Two people - a security guard and a teenage boy, both recent immigrants from Argentina - were killed and about 70 were wounded in a suicide bombing at a shopping mall in Kfar Sava. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 21, 2002 - Eleven people were killed and some 50 wounded by a suicide bomber on a No. 20 Egged bus on Mexico Street in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem. The bus was filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, traveling toward the center of the city during rush hour. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

[David Jamieson]

and..........


Jan 5, 2003 - Twenty-two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel-Aviv. The attack was apparently carried out by two members of the Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, with the help of the Islamic Jihad.

Mar 5, 2003 - Seventeen people were killed and 53 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus #37 on Moriah Blvd. in the Carmel section of Haifa, en route to Haifa University. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2003 - Over 40 people were wounded in a suicide bombing on the pedestrian mall at the entrance to the London Cafe in the center of Netanya. The bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 24, 2003 - Alexander Kostyuk, a 23-year-old security guard from Bat Yam, was killed and 13 were wounded, two seriously, in a suicide bombing outside the train station in Kfar Sava. Groups related to the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PFLP clamied joint responsibility for the attack.

Apr 30, 2003 - Three people were killed and about 60 peoople were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a beachfront pub "Mike's Place" in Tel Aviv. The Fatah Tanzim and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out as a joint operation. Investigation revealed that the two British Muslims involved in the suicide bombing were dispatched to perpetrate the attack by the Hamas military command in the Gaza Strip.

May 17, 2003 - Gadi Levy and his wife Dina, aged 31 and 37, of Kiryat Arba were killed by a suicide bomber in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 18, 2003 - Seven people were killed and 20 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus no. 6 near French Hill in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
A second suicide bomber detonated his bomb when intercepted by police in northern Jerusalem. The terrorist was killed; no one else was injured.

May 19, 2003 - Three IDF soldiers were lightly injured when a Palestinian on a bicycle detonated explosives next to a military jeep near Kfar Darom in the southern Gaza Strip. The bomber was killed. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 19, 2003 - Three people were killed and about 70 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Amakim Mall in Afula. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 22, 2003 - Nine Israelis were injured when a roadside bomb was detonated next to a bus near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip.

June 11, 2003 - Seventeen people were killed and over 100 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #14A outside the Clal building on Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 19, 2003 - Avner Mordechai, 58, of Moshav Sde Trumot, was killed when a suicide bomber blew up in his grocery on Sde Trumot, south of Beit Shean. The suicide bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 7, 2003 - Mazal Afari, 65, of Moshav Kfar Yavetz was killed in her home on Monday evening and three of her grandchildren lightly wounded in a terrorist suicide bombing. The remains of the bomber were also found in the wreckage of the house. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 12, 2003 - Erez Hershkovitz, 18, of Eilon Moreh, was killed and three people wounded when a teenaged Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself at a bus stop outside Ariel. Amatzia Nisanevitch, 22, of Nofim, died of his wounds on August 28.

Aug 19, 2003 - Twenty-three people were killed and over 130 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2003 - Nine IDF soldiers were killed and 30 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a hitchhiking post for soldier outside a main entrance to the Tzrifin army base and Assaf Harofeh Hospital. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2003 - Seven people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at Cafe Hillel on Emek Refaim St., the main thoroughfare of the German Colony neighborhood in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 4, 2003 - Twenty-one people were killed, including four children, and 60 wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist from Jenin in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 9, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber exploded himself at the DCO located at the entrance to Tulkarm. The bomber approached the reception window and exploded himself, injuring two IDF soldiers and a Palestinian.

Oct 15, 2003 - Three Americans were killed and one wounded at the Beit Hanoun junction in the Gaza Strip when a massive bomb demolished an armor-plated jeep in a convoy carrying U.S. diplomats.

Nov 3, 2003 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the West Bank village of Azun, near Kafr Qasem, when he saw Israeli security officials searching for him. One IDF soldier was lightly wounded. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade claimed responsibility for the failed attack.

Dec 25, 2003 - Four Israelis were killed and over 20 wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Geha Junction, east of Tel Aviv, near Petah Tikva. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

[David Jamieson]

and...........

Jan 14, 2004 - Four Israelis - three soldiers and one civilian - were killed and 10 wounded when a female suicide bomber detonated a bomb at the Erez Crossing in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and the Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

Jan 29, 2004 - Eleven people were killed and over 50 wounded, 13 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus no. 19 at the corner of Gaza and Arlozorov streets in Jerusalem. The Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, naming the bomber as Ali Yusuf Jaara, a 24-year-old Palestinian policeman from Bethlehem.

Feb 22, 2004 - Eight people were killed and over 60 wounded, 11 of them school pupils, in a suicide bombing on Jerusalem bus no. 14A near the Liberty Bell Park. The Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, which was carried out by Mohammed Za'ul, from the Bethlehem area.

Mar 6, 2004 - Two Palestinian policemen were killed in a terror attack on the Erez crossing in northern Gaza involving rifle fire and suicide car bombs, including jeeps camouflaged as IDF vehicles. Two of the vehicles exploded on the Palestinian side of the crossing, and four terrorists were killed. There were no IDF casualties. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the military wing of Fatah all claimed responsibility.

Mar 14, 2004 - Ten people were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide bombing at Ashdod Port. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 17, 2004 - Border Policeman Sgt. Kfir Ohayon, 20, of Eilat was killed, three others wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up at the Erez Crossing. Hamas and Fatah claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

May 22, 2004 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated an explosive device at the Bekaot checkpoint in the northern Jordan Valley. The commander of the IDF checkpoint was lightly injured, as well as several Palestinians. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 11, 2004 - Sgt. Ma'ayan Na'im, 19, of Bat Yam, was killed and 33 wounded when a bomb exploded at a bus stop in downtown Tel Aviv at about 7 a.m. One person was critically wounded, four were moderately wounded, and the rest were lightly hurt.

Aug 11, 2004 - Two Palestinian bystanders were killed and 18 people were wounded, including six Border Policemen, when a bomb was detonated south of the Qalandiyah checkpoint at the northern entrance to Jerusalem.

Aug 31, 2004 - Sixteen people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12. The buses were traveling along Beersheba's main street, Rager Blvd, near the city hall. Hamas in Hebron claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 8, 2004 - A booby-trapped car exploded next to Israeli security personnel at the Baka al-Sharkiyeh checkpoint, near the Green Line border with the West Bank. The Palestinian driver of the car was killed in the blast. The Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 14, 2004 - A suicide bomber riding on a bicycle blew himself up near an armored IDF jeep at an agricultural gate, south of Qalqilyah, injuring two IDF soldiers.

Sept 22, 2004 - Two Border Policemen were killed and 17 Israelis wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist at the French Hill junction hitchhiking post in northern Jerusalem. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 7, 2004 - A total of 32 people were killed in terror bombings at two Sinai holiday resorts frequented by Israelis: 29 at the Taba Hilton and three at Ras a-Satan. Among the dead were 12 Israelis; over 120 were wounded.

Nov 1, 2004 - Three people were killed and over 30 wounded in a suicide bombing at the Carmel Market in central Tel Aviv. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Nablus claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out by Amar Alfar, 18, from Askar refugee camp in Nablus.

Dec 7, 2004 - St.-Sgt. Nadav Kudinsky, 20, of Kiryat Gat of the Oketz canine unit was killed by a bomb, along with his dog, when a booby-trapped chicken coup exploded northwest of the Karni Corssing in the Gaza Strip. Four soldiers were wounded in the exchange of fire while evacuating him. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

[David Jamieson]

and..........

Jan 5, 2005 - A terrorist infiltrated the Erez crossing terminal in the Gaza Strip, activated an explosive device, hurled grenades and opened fire. An IDF force shot and killed the terrorist. The Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 12, 2005 - One Israeli civilian was killed and three IDF soldiers wounded when a bomb was detonated as a military vehicle patroled the route near Morag in the southern Gaza Strip. Two terrorists were killed by IDF forces. The area was booby-trapped with explosive devices, in addition to the bomb that exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 13, 2005 - On Thursday night, shortly before the closing of the Karni Crossing, terrorists activated an explosive device on the Palestinian side of the crossing, blowing a hole in the door through which Palestinian terrorists infiltrated the Israeli side of the crossing and opened fire at Israeli civilians. As a result of the explosion and during exchanges of fire, six Israeli civilians and three Palestinian terrorists were killed, and five Israeli civilians were wounded. Hamas and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed joint responsiblity for the attack.

Jan 18, 2005 - An ISA officer was killed, an IDF officer seriously wounded, and 4 IDF soldiers and 3 members of the ISA were lightly wounded in a suicide bombing attack at the Gush Katif junction in the central Gaza Strip. While search procedures were being carried out, the suicide bomber with explosives strapped to his body detonated himself. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 25, 2005 - Five people were killed and 50 wounded Friday night, when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside the Stage club on the Tel Aviv promenade at around 11:20 P.M., on the corner of Herbert Samuel and Yonah Hanavi streets. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 12, 2005 - Five people were killed and about 90 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself outside Hasharon Mall in Netanya. The bomber was identified as Ahmed Abu Khalil, 18, from the West Bank village of Atil. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 28, 2005 - A suicide bomber detonated himself outside the Beersheba Central Bus Station. Two security guards who stopped the bomber were severely wounded and about 50 people were lightly wounded or treated for shock. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 26, 2005 - Six people were killed and 55 wounded, six seriously, in a suicide bombing at the Hadera open-air market. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 5, 2005 - Five people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Sharon shopping mall in Netanya. The terrorist detonated the bomb when he was stopped by security guards, one of whom was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 29, 2005 - Lt. Ori Binamo, 21, of Nesher was killed when a terrorist en route to carry out an attack in Israel detonated himself at roadblock set up near Tulkarm following an intelligence tip. A second intended suicide terrorist was also killed in the blast as well as the taxi driver and a third passenger. Three soldiers and seven Palestinians were wounded.

[David Jamieson]

and.........


Jan 19, 2006 - Thirty-one people were wounded in a suicide bombing in a shawarma restaurant near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Jerusalem Battalions of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2006 - Four people were killed when a suicide bomber hitchhiker disguised as an ultra-Orthodox yeshiva student detonated his explosive device in a private vehicle near the entrance to Kedumim.

Apr 17, 2006 - Eleven people were killed and over 60 wounded in a suicide bombing during the Passover holiday near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv, at the Rosh Ha'ir shawarma restaurant, site of the Jan 19 bombing. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 29, 2007 - Three employees of a bakery in the southern city of Eilat were killed in a suicide bombing. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 4, 2008 - Lyubov Razdolskaya, 73, of Dimona was killed and 38 wounded - Razdolskaya's husband critically - in a terror attack carried out by a suicide bomber at a shopping center in Dimona. A police officer shot and killed a second terrorist before he detonated his explosive belt. A Hamas statement from Gaza praised the attack, calling it an "heroic act".

Mar 6, 2008 - Eight students of the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva in Jerusalem were killed when a terrorist armed with a Kalashnikov assault rifle infiltrated the yeshiva and opened fire in the library where about 80 people were gathered, mostly teenagers. Eleven others were wounded, three critically. The terrorist, a resident of East Jerusalem, was killed by an IDF officer.

May 14, 2008 - At about 6 pm an Iranian-made Grad rocket launched from the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip hit a busy shopping mall in central Ashkelon. 90 people were wounded, four of them seriously, among them a 24-year-old mother and her infant daughter.

July 2, 2008 - Three people were killed and over 50 wounded in a terror attack in Jerusalem. Driving a bulldozer on Jaffa Road between the Central Bus Station and the Mahane Yehuda market, the terrorist plowed into cars and pedestrians as well as two public buses carrying some 50 passengers. Police shot and killed the terrorist.

so, who wants to talk about proportions? anyone?

the problem is as plain as the nose on ones face. we are lucky to sit here with our bellies full and our eyes watching it on tv instead of having it in our everyday lives. BUt lets not make light of these terrorists.

p.s I 100% support Israel, even realizing that like any humans, they will make errors in their doings here.

[SimonM]

That's fewer Israeli soldier and civilian combined fatalities since 1994 than Palestinian civilian fatalities this month.

It disgusts me that anyone could support the genocide being perpetrated by the warmongers who rule Israel.

[David Jamieson]

That's fewer Israeli soldier and civilian combined fatalities since 1994 than Palestinian civilian fatalities this month.

It disgusts me that anyone could support the genocide being perpetrated by the warmongers who rule Israel.

maybe fewer israeli soldiers, but what of the civilians who were killed for no good reason?
also your number is skewed in regards to palesytinian civilians. of the 700, i believe it is considered less than 1/3 are civs. but that is irrelevant, it's not about "how many for each" is it? is it really that?

genocide?

that's a bit strong. also untrue.

simon, you do realize that hamas embed their armed people amongst the civilians?

is that right?

[David Jamieson]

also worth looking at:


HOW ISRAEL BECOMES A STATE

The land of present-day Israel has been invaded, conquered and re-invaded since Biblical times.
1250 BC: Israelites began to conquer and settle the land of Canaan on the eastern Mediterranean coast.
961-922 BC: Reign of King Solomon and construction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Solomon's reign was followed by the division of the land into two kingdoms.

586 BC: The southern kingdom, Judah, was conquered by the Babylonians, who drove its people, the Jews, into exile and destroyed Solomon's Temple. After 70 years the Jews began to return and Jerusalem and the temple were gradually rebuilt.

638 AD: Conquest by Arab Muslims ended Byzantine rule (the successor to Roman rule in the East). The second caliph of Islam, Omar, built a mosque at the site of what is now the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem in the early years of the 8th Century. Apart from the age of the Crusaders (1099-1187), the region remained under Muslim rule until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the 20th Century


THE LAND PURCHASES

Let's go back to the late 1800's.

The land currently known as Israel was once an area called Palestine. For more than 1200 years…the dominant population there was Arabic.
Starting around the 1880's…a steady stream of Jews began to enter into the area and began buying land from the Arabs.
It turns out that many of the wealthy landowning Arabs were absentee landlords who made a quick buck by selling to the new Jewish settlers. These transactions OBVIOUSLY upset the peasant Arab farmers living on these lands who believed they had the RIGHT to live, cultivate and transfer these properties to their families.

Now…at around this time many of the Jews entering into Palestine were part of a group belonging to the ZIONIST movement. This group had one goal…."to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people." One of the ways this was done was with the creation of the Jewish National Fund….an entity that organized the purchase of land from the Arab landowners.
This practice went on for decades.


PROMISES AND MANIPULATION

It is now 1914….several months before the start of WWI. Both the Zionist Jews and the Arabs are hoping to achieve a separate sovereign state for themselves. The Jews wanted to increase their stake in the population of Palestine…while the Arabs fought amongst themselves as to what kind of Palestine they wanted.

A key player who exploited this situation was a man called Chaim Weizmann. He was an accomplished scientist… a master of European diplomacy with strong ties to Britain.

Weizmann realized that the key to the future of Palestine was going to be decided by the global politics at the time.
It turns out that history proved him right.

The following is going to be an intricate soap opera…so please pay extra attention.

When World War I broke out…Great Britain had many interests in the Mideast region…including Palestine. Even though it was of great strategic importance to them…Britain's police in the Middle East was an incredibly confusing mess.

For example:
---The British commissioner to Egypt, Sir Henry McMahon, was corresponding with Arab leader Sharif Husayn. In a letter dated July 14, 1915…Sharif proposed an area of land for total Arab independence (Arabian peninsula, Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine)…governed by Sharif and his family.

Three months later, McMahon responded that the British government will SUPPORT Sharif's goal for Arab independence when the war was over.

---Simultaneously, the British government was negotiating with the French over the SAME area! In February 1916…the "Asia Minor Agreement" was signed…divvying up the Middle East between the French and the British. AS for Palestine...it was destined to be controlled by the French, British AND the Russians!

---But there was ANOTHER agreement…this one affected the region for years to come.
British Foreign secretary Arthur Balfour had an idea. He wanted his government to establish a presence in Palestine.
Why?
Because the British were planning to attack Syria from bases in Egypt. They had already placed 300 THOUSAND troops for this effort…AND Palestine would be of great strategic importance to them.
But the British needed an ally to run Palestine…so they turned to the JEWS!!!
So guess who came in to help out to fulfill Balfour's idea?
Yup…..Chaim Weizmann (leader of the Zionist movement)


THE BALFOUR DECLARATION

So…on November 2, 1917…a document called the "Balfour Declaration" was presented.
The paper stipulated that the British government was sympathetic to the Zionist cause and favorably agreed to the "establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish People" AND that they would help the Zionists achieve their goal.
But then there was the following proviso….
"…let it be CLEARLY understood that NOTHING shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing (stress this!!) NON-JEWISH communities in Palestine…"

The Zionists were overjoyed at the "Balfour Declaration". Now their organization had clout from a world superpower…their dream of a homeland was closer to reality.

Needless to say, the Palestinians weren't too happy about this. They saw that a foreign power was making decisions about THEIR lives …directly contradicting THEIR wishes in the process. The Arabs felt it went against the earlier negotiations between Sharif and McMahon in 1915 BUT more importantly….there was an inherent INCOMPATIBILITY within the document.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to balance the rights of the Arabs while establishing the country as a HOMELAND for the Jews. This is where the seed of discord between the Arabs and Jews was planted…and it has grown ever since.

Beginning on December 9, 1917…British troops began to push out the Turks from Palestine and the surrounding areas. By October of the following year…Palestine was under British military rule.

The struggle to find an acceptable resolution between the Arabs and the Zionists continued. After a series of meetings and conferences….the "British Mandate" was developed. This further cemented the goals of the Zionists to take over Palestine.

The mandate declared that:
---there IS a historical connection between Palestine and the Jewish people.
---the British should help secure the establishment of the Jewish National Homeland
---AND…most importantly…a Jewish entity should assist in coordinating and developing this effort by regulating Jewish immigration AND "…ensuring the rights of other sections of the population are not prejudiced."

The entity that was formed was called the "Jewish Agency". The group behind the formation…the World Zionist Organization. Both groups were run by Chaim Weizmann.

This "British Mandate" gave the Zionists a renewed sense of purpose. They began to believe that not ONLY could they just settle into Palestine BUT that they could also set up their own political state.

Well…as you can guess…the Arabs were very unhappy with the "British Mandate". They argued that previous agreements made with them were NOT being honored. Also…they disliked the fact that the language in the British Mandate referred to them as "…the other sections…" when in fact…the Arab population consisted of 88% of the population of Palestine.




continued below...

[David Jamieson]

continued from above....


ARABS GETTING FED UP

By this time…the Arab people were having an identity crisis. A number of previous agreements for an Arab homeland were being reneged on by various European countries who were busy either transferring power, issuing empty promises OR carving up the Mid-East territories in their midst.

This situation created a series of divisions within Arab society.

Picture this:

The rich, powerful Arab elite lost their legitimacy when they aligned themselves with the foreign governments. The rest of Arab society were trying to figure out if they should continue to try to make the best of their changing territory OR to stick with their nationalist fervor.
This lack of cohesion among the Arab people hindered their efforts against the coordinated work of the Jews and their intention to establish their homeland in Palestine.

Now…there was one man who tried to have a go at this mess and attempted to make it work.
His name is Sir Herbert Samuels…the high commissioner of Palestine. It was his job to develop Palestine with the help of the Arabs and Jews while keeping the area under the auspices of British control. As the Jews continued to immigrate into Palestine during the 20's…Sir Herbert offered the opportunity to OTHER ARAB ORGANIZATIONS to take part and DECIDE how much to LIMIT Jewish immigration.


The Arabs rejected it.
Why?

They felt that if they accepted Sir Herbert's invitation…that would mean they would have to accept the terms of the "British Mandate" AND the "Balfour Declaration". Even though they would have had an equal say in the direction and development of Palestine under those agreements…they refused to participate!

Now…even though there was this animosity between Jews and Arabs….the sale of land between the two groups CONTINUED! Jews would still approach Arab landowners (many of whom lived outside of Palestine) and would purchase their properties. By the 1930's….the price of land spiraled out of control. Consequently…the Arab peasants who farmed the land for generations could not afford the rents to their landowners. The British saw what was going on but did nothing to stop this.

Why?
The costs of WWI depleted the British reserves so…they needed the money from the Jewish investments to help fund the "British Mandate" in Palestine.

So…while the Arabs were fighting amongst themselves and others…the Jews continued to stream into Palestine. They had organized themselves into a formidable group. This coordinated effort led to many advancements in Palestine. The Jews brought new farming technologies….developed welfare services…opened up schools, hospitals and synagogues.
AND…they still continued to purchase land at a furious pace.

The man primarily responsible for organizing this effort was Ben-Gurion. Over time, he was able to develop an economic and military infrastructure that would enable the Jewish people to defend themselves. He intuitively understood that in the future…THERE WILL BE MILITARY CONFLICTS with the Arabs. The desire of the Jews AND the Arabs to establish their own homeland in Palestine was forever IRRECONCILIABLE.


THE HITLER PROBEM

Now…there was another set of circumstances that pushed the Jews closer to an establishing a homeland for themselves.

It is now 1929….Germany is going thru a severe economic meltdown. One man rose to power by convincing the German people that one of the reasons for their problems was the Jewish people.
Adolf Hitler's degree of anti-Semitism was delivered with such intensity…many of the Jews living in Germany fled the country and immigrated to Palestine. When Hitler became chancellor of the Reich in 1930…the immigration increased.
37,000 in 1933….45,000 in 1934….61,000 in 1935.
By 1936….the Jews made up 31% or the population of Palestine.

That same year…the Arab frustration had begun to boil over. In April 1936, a series of Arab attacks gave way to the Palestinian Revolt. A loosely assembled group of Arab parties formed together and made three demands:
----a halt to Jewish immigration,
---no more land sales to Jews
---AND the formation of an Arab government in Palestine.

Welll…this particular bit of news came at a bad time for the British government…since they were planning to go to war with Germany. Consequently…there was a need for oil from the Middle East.
In order to get that oil …Britain needed to shore up its ties with the Arabs by appeasing them over the issue of Palestine.
Ironically…the Jewish influence over Britain was declining.
Most of the pro-Jewish British members had been transferred out of office AND the Jews had no choice but to support Britain in their campaign against Hitler and the Germans.

But the British had a difficult time trying to appease the Arabs. By the mid 1930's…the Jews had already firmly planted themselves in Palestine with their economic and military investments. Even if the Arabs were able to set up their own government in Palestine…they could have cared less about looking after the Jewish community.
The British could only see three available options in this mess:
---get out and leave the Jews and Arabs to themselves
---cordon off the Jewish and Arab areas
---stick around and see what happens next.
In July 1937…they got their answer.

A Royal Commission was dispatched to Palestine to assess the situation. The "Peel Commmission" reported the following: The existing "British Mandate" was a failure. The obligation Britain had to the Jews and the Arabs was impossible to continue.
So what do you think the commission recommended?

To separate Palestine into TWO states….one Arab…the other Jewish. AND to continue having Nazareth, Bethlehem and Jerusalem under British control.
The Jews didn't like the proposed boundaries…but they agreed to the principal of dividing up the land.
The Arabs, not surprisingly, completely rejected the idea.

It is now May 1939. The British declare an end of their responsibilities to the Jewish people in Palestine as set forth by the "Balfour Declaration". A new document called the "White Paper" was issued.

This resolution stipulated the following:
---establishing a Palestinian state in TEN years
---the establish of an Arab government to run that state
---future land sales by Arabs would be SEVERELY restricted
---the control of Jewish immigration would be under Arab control

Well guess what? The reaction from the Arabs was mixed while the Jews COMPLETELY rejected it. The Jews were so much against this policy that when WWII broke out in September 1939, Ben-Guiron, the architect of the Jewish development of Palestine said: "We shall fight the war against Hitler as if there were no White Paper and we shall fight the White Paper as if there were no war."




thoughts?

[David Jamieson]

continued from above...


But then something very interesting happened.

In May of 1940, Italy had entered the war.
For the British government that meant the global conflict was getting closer to their interests in the Middle East.
British Prime Minister Winston Churchill needed to make peace with the Arabs so he began to implement the "White Paper" policy of restricting Jewish immigration into Palestine. This came at a time when Jews across Europe were desperately trying to get out of the war path.
The tensions between the British and the Jews boiled over in April 1942 when a boatload of Jewish refugees was denied entry into Palestine. As the ship returned to sea…it sank leaving only TWO survivors.
This really ****ed off the Jews in Palestine. One person in particular was SOOO enraged he took it upon himself to create an underground Jewish force to kick the British out of Palestine.
That man's name….Menachem Begin.

It is now 1943. The news is spreading around that Jews throughout Europe are being persecuted by the Nazis. The Jewish underground in Palestine are attacking British forces in the hopes of opening up Jewish immigration. The following year in November, these rogue Jewish groups assassinated (in Cairo) a close personal friend of Winston Churchill.
This particular event distanced the British government even further from the Jews in Palestine.

It is now 1944. The news that a genocidal Holocaust against the Jews in Europe is now worldwide. By this time…more than 6 MILLION have perished. As a consequence…the precepts of Zionism (which is the establishment of a Jewish homeland) began to take a deep, fervent root with Jews EVERYWHERE.
It was at this point in history that ZIONISM unified the global Jewish community.


THE FINAL PUSH

When WWII ended…the British encountered ANOTHER problem. HUNDREDS of thousands of Holocaust survivors were in camps throughout Europe. All of them were demanding to be allowed to resettle into…you guessed it…Palestine!
Leaders thruout the world, including President Harry Truman, pressured Britain to loosen up its immigration restrictions.

In February 1947, the Brits went to the United Nations for their help in deciding what to do with Palestine. A few months later a special UN committee was setup to assess the situation. Then in August…the committee recommended the following.
---To separate Palestine into SEVERAL Jewish and Arab areas.
---to establish Jerusalem as an international area
---AND to economically tie in all THREE entities.
On November 29, 1947…the proposed UN resolution was adopted.

Well guess what happened…the Jews agreed to the PRINCIPLE of dividing the country.
The Arabs said they would do everything in their power to stop the implementation of the UN resolution.
Then it got worse….

The areas heavily populated by Jews were being attacked by Arabs. President Truman, on the advice of the State Department, reversed his position on Palestine and agreed to delay the partition. Additionally…the British were fed up with the Jewish clandestine groups attacking them so they help support the Arabs.
Meanwhile, these underground Jewish groups were able to create a communication network…linking them with the various Jewish settlements throughout Palestine.
Around the same time, Chaim Weizmann, leader of the Zioinists, was able to convince President Truman to change his position AGAIN and support the Jews.
Then it finally happened….

On May 14, 1948…the Jews declared the establishment of the state of Israel. The next day, Britain renounced its mandate over Palestine AND the US recognized the state of Israel. The Soviet Union followed suit…along with DOZENS of other countries.
A year later in May 1949…Israel became a member of the UN.
AS to be expected…the Arabs were not pleased with these series of events. Thousands of Arab troops (many who were poorly trained) fought against Israeli troops (many were WWII veterans). The Israelis won and held on to their territory (which was MUCH larger than what was allotted by the UN).

So…in 1949…after decades of promises, bad judgments, manipulations, blood, sweat and tears….Palestine was carved up.
Jerusalem was split in two…the Old City belonged to the Arabs, the New City belonged to the Jews.
As for the rest of the country…the Arabs settled into TWO areas.
The largest portion is the West Bank along the border of Jordan AND the Gaza Strip along the Mediterrean Sea.


SIX DAYS AND BEYOND

Decades pass…more skirmishes, battles and altercations take place between Israel and the surrounding Arab countries.
One of the more defining battles…the one that is a foundation for the peace process to this day….is the Six-Day war that took place on June 5, 1967.

It turns out that Israel's neighbors (Egypt, Jordan and Syria) were mobilizing themselves against Israel. Launching a pre-emptive strike against the Arab troops on their borders, Israel increases its territory big time.
They captured the West Bank and the Gaza Strip…along with the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula.
It is these territories that make up the basis of the ongoing Arab-Israeli peace negotiations.
This is where you will hear the phrase "land-for-peace".
You see…the Arabs are willing to RECOGNIZE the right of Israel to exist IF they return the lands they got during the 1967 war.

The Sinai peninsula was returned to Egypt in 1979…but the other THREE territories are still under Israeli control.

Let's take the Gaza Strip for example.
This tract of land is a bit larger than the cities of Santa Monica and Venice combined. It is the home of more than ONE million Palestinians…nearly a THIRD of them live in refugee camps run by the UN.
Compare that to the 7000 Jewish settlers that live there.
Israel controls almost 40% of the Gaza Strip…which includes the settlements…all of the major roads AND its borders.

Then there is the largest territory…the West Bank. Numerous Jewish settlements have been built here…60% is DIRECTLY controlled by the Israelis.
25% is secured by the Israelis but is CIVILLY administered by the Palestinians.
The remaining 15% is run by the Palestinian Authority.
Israel has CONTINUOUSLY and SYSTEMATICALLY built settlements in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
By 1987…the Palestinians had had enough.
They initiated a public uprising….or intifadah against Israeli occupation.

Initially the Palestinians participated in civil disobedience, boycotts and general strikes. But that quickly gave way to the current form of expression…suicide bombings.

Since the declaration of the intifadah there have been numerous attempts at peace by various Arab and Israeli leaders. Negotiations have been held…agreements have been reached…treaties have been signed…but somehow….at some point….someone throws a rock.
Then a shot is fired…then a Molotov ****tail is thrown…then a grenade is launched….then a suicide bomber explodes…then the tanks are called in.
People die…blood is spilt…hostilities are raised.
Once the anger calms down….both sides begin to talk again.

Let's hope that when that happens…no one throws a rock or fires a shot.

Produced By: Emiliano Limon
Read By: Bill Handle / KFI Radio AM640

Compiled from: The Library of Congress, The Origin of the Palestine-Israeli Conflict, BBC News, The UK Guardian

thoughts?

[AJM]

Yes I have a thought. (smelled smoke didn't you?) You can't sell guns and munitions without war.

[David Jamieson]

Yes I have a thought. (smelled smoke didn't you?) You can't sell guns and munitions without war.

actually you can.

guns are mechanisms used in war to be fair, but if not guns then swords and if not swords then stones and if not stones then tooth and nail.

humans make war upon their enemies.
It's a reality we all must live with.

each generation in almost any nation deals with war.

the question is, how do we as a species move beyond the use of violence for the formation of society?

don't be quick to answer that. just savour it a bit. :)

[Lucas]

the question is, how do we as a species move beyond the use of violence for the formation of society?



people have been trying to figure this out for a long time. there are many answers, unfortunately the answers are near to impossible because the amount of willingness and cooperation needed, by all people, is what the major root of the problem is.

i just dont know if we as a species CAN actually have peace on earth. I know we wont in my life time.

for the sake of the future I hope its possible, yet IMO i think ultimate peace goes against our nature as humans.

[David Jamieson]

You are probably right.

It is in our nature to be dualistic in all things.
A curse and a blessing all in one!

nevertheless, i hope the conflict in the middle east ends soon.
But I'm not holding my breath on it.

[Lucas]

You are probably right.

It is in our nature to be dualistic in all things.
A curse and a blessing all in one!

nevertheless, i hope the conflict in the middle east ends soon.
But I'm not holding my breath on it.

i hear you on that one. at least there are enough of us that strive to make a difference, that we dont break out into all out chaos and, well, WWIII

[Mr Punch]

Deaths Dec 1987 - Sep 2000 (First Intifada)
Palestinian 1549 (304 children)
Israeli 421 (18)

Deaths Sep 2000 - 2004 (Second Intifada)
Palestinian 3196 (620)
Israeli 946 (112)

Deaths 2004 - 2007
Palestinian 1290 (222)
Israeli 86 (8)


Demolition of houses for not having permits 1987-1998
2276

1999-2004
1049

2006
44 (294 homeless)

2007
39 (249 homeless, 113 children homeless)

2008
24 (168/99)NB 1: These are just the figures for the West Bank and East Jerusalem
NB 2: Land registration has been 'frozen' for 30 years, which means that Palestinians do not get building permits.


Demolition of houses for 'military purposes':

2004
1404 (10704 homeless people)

2005
17 (68)

2006
318 (2150)

2007
43 (182)

2008
37 (141 homeless people 67 of which were children


Demolition of houses for punishment:

2001
10 (66 homeless people)

2002
252 (1402)

2003
225 (1805)

2004
177 (909)NB: I haven't actually read the definitions as to what constitutes a punishment demolition.

General NB: I haven't looked for the stats on schools and hospitals demolished or destroyed in military action.


Death toll from current conflict:

Palestinians: 750
Israelis: 4I seem to remember about a third of those killed in the current action are children.


"no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis"Not sure they're achieving the third one. Maybe it is in order of priority.


One in two Gazans is now living in poverty. Aid is sporadic, and as the World Bank warned at the beginning of December, the blockade has forced Gaza to become reliant on smuggling tunnels (taxed by Hamas), which risked destroying its conventional economy. Inflation for key products smuggled through the tunnels is rampant, which in turn has brought cash to Hamas.

Hamas are scum. That is no excuse for Israel's actions.


Why are Hamas doing this to us? Why are they even here? What do they want to achieve?Unfortunately I can'tfind the exact article, but there are many more like it on any news site. Of course, it's not necessarily a represntative sample since not so many people interviewed at this time are going to be supporting Hamas openly, but quite why some Israel supporters feel that in Gaza in particular, unlike any other conflict involving terrorists bringing death within their own communities, people are in the majority in supporting these terrorists, I don't know.

The future repercussions of Israel's policy for Gaza. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-palestine-israel-children-psychology)


I repeat: Hamas are scum. That is no excuse for Israel's actions.

[Mr Punch]

actually you can.

guns are mechanisms used in war to be fair, but if not guns then swords and if not swords then stones and if not stones then tooth and nail.Stupid 'argument'. Swords and stones won't kill a fraction as quickly.


humans make war upon their enemies.
It's a reality we all must live with.

each generation in almost any nation deals with war.And some wars are just blah blah blah. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try and stop them.


the question is, how do we as a species move beyond the use of violence for the formation of society?Kwatz! By stopping using violence!

[David Jamieson]

Stupid 'argument'. Swords and stones won't kill a fraction as quickly.

And some wars are just blah blah blah. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try and stop them.

Kwatz! By stopping using violence!

easy answers.

[Mr Punch]

easy answers.Yep. So?

Talks. Redevelopment.

Beats bombs, tanks and wholesale destruction of a country's infrastructure, and alienation of the next generation.

Yeah, it's easy. Doesn't mean the results will be plain sailing or easy to achieve, but yeah, the plan's easy. Still right though.

[David Jamieson]

so mr. punch, what is your proposal to bring peace to the middle east.

oh and...

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

specifically this:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Ami Isseroff

The protocols of the elders of zion is a proven fraud.

so, how do you propose to deal with this kind of thinking?

also, do you know of the map? detailing the traps and such taht hamas has set in the urban areas throughout gaza? do you think that that meets UN standards? geneva convention?

it's all fine and good to say "hamas are scum" Good for you! now, what to do about them? what to do?

[Drake]

Wow... I wasn't aware of the scope of Hamas' attacks. That's unbelievable!

[Drake]

Guns and munitions sell equally well if there's a stalemate and nobody attacks. Arms race, anyone?

[David Jamieson]

The enclave of Hamas prior to this current conflict was 20,000 armed militants embedded within the Palestinian population.

Hamas kills it's own and kills Palestinians almost indiscriminately. they operate as a criminal organization, murdering arabs and jews and christians alike within Israel.

from my perspective, it is very clear what they represent and what must be done.

The most unfortunate thing is that they are cowards and use women and children and elderly people as shields and then use them to further their propaganda.

It is very frustrating and I sympathize with the people of Gaza and Israel for enduring this horrendous evil in their midst.

[Mr Punch]

so mr. punch, what is your proposal to bring peace to the middle east... so, how do you propose to deal with this kind of thinking?I've told you. Talking. Now, if you're going to say 'What would you talk about?' I'm going to have to call you an idiot!

There are two possible solutions, right?

1) Talk. Keep talking. Be prepared to make some sacrifices on both sides while these nutters continue killing, but keep talking.

2) Kill them all. Be prepared to make some sacrifices on both sides but keep killing until you've killed all of the terrorists.

Unfortunately, in (2) you have two major problems:

a) You don't know who are terrorists and who aren't.
b) The more people you kill, the more survivors become terrorists, if not in Palestine then in other countries.

The only way to effectively carry out (2) by extension, would be to kill every Palestinian and eventually, of course, every Moslem. Genocide.

Israel's policy has always failed, and is still failing. That is because it is unworkable.

If you talk to people, build hospitals and schools, help them establish farms and meaningful work, you prevent more and more people from considering terrorism as an option and fewer and fewer people harbouring terrorists.

If you kill, the killing has to continue.

There. It's simplistic because I'm not a negotiator involved in talking to Hamas, Palestinian community organisations, relief agencies and the Israeli govt and army... and because we have no way of knowing how the talks would pan out... but it's the only solution:

Talking, investment, rebuilding.

If there were ever a good case for a long-term international peacekeeping force protecting the building of infrastructure and conducting surgical strikes on known terrorists, it's here.

So, there you are, I've answered your question. Now I have three for you:

What do you think are the objectives and probable/possible outcomes of Israeli policy?

Do you think that this kind of military action has a better chance of achieving a lasting peace or those stated objectives than talks?

Do you think peace is even possible?

[David Jamieson]

Hmmm.

I know it's an emotional issue. I am not sure you are weighing it correctly though. At least not from my perspective.

Talk. Ok. So, did you read what wa posted in regards to Hamas position?
Did you read the timeline on the creation of the State of Israel.

Both of these are factual.

Should Israel sit and talk to themselves?
Does the nation of Israel anger you for any reason?

Talking has been done in the past and will happen again.
But first, there is some clean up to do.

Whatever you and I may think is irrelevant, the decisions have been made and what is happening is happening. so be it. You calling me an idiot in context to the situation, as if it will do anything is...well, idiotic. lol

I support Israel's actions. As I've stated before. I find it ironic that an American or Brit, not sure, such as yourself, who's country is involved in a war that has killed thousands of innocents against the wishes of it's own citizenry and that of the global village should have such harsh judgments of Israels actions against an actual real and verified enemy.

i realize there is fog of war, friendly fire and errors amongst the service men doing their jobs.

regards. :)

[jo]

There will never be peace because peace is bad for business.

Those who profit from war have become too entrenched in governments on all sides.

No more war, no more big profits.

Peace is bad for business.

- jo

[David Jamieson]

There will never be peace because peace is bad for business.

Those who profit from war have become too entrenched in governments on all sides.

No more war, no more big profits.

Peace is bad for business.

- jo

platitudes.

[Mr Punch]

I know it's an emotional issue. I am not sure you are weighing it correctly though. At least not from my perspective.Fair enough. Just BTW, I'm not sure if I come across as such, but I don't actually have an emotional connection to this particularly. Don't know why.


Talk. Ok. So, did you read what wa posted in regards to Hamas position?
Did you read the timeline on the creation of the State of Israel.Yep. And I was already aware of both of those points.


Should Israel sit and talk to themselves?Of course it needs outside parties talking to both sides.


Does the nation of Israel anger you for any reason?I don't think so. I don't have any negative reaction when talking, thinking, or being presented with new information on them. I don't pretend to understand the opinions and feelings in the situation which is perhaps how I can more objectively view just the stats, and take hope in the ability of people to find solutions through discussion, as in N Ireland eventually... as in ongoing attempts between N Korea, China and Japan on various issues despite disgusting attitudes and animosity on all sides... and countless other examples past and present. My hope isn't objective of course, but I don't think it is illogical either.


But first, there is some clean up to do...

I support Israel's actions. As I've stated before.What is the objective of that clean up? You haven't actually answered the questions I asked you. What are Israel's objectives: to 'stop Hamas'? Is that not too simplistic itself? And again, please look at my questions with regards to that objective from my previous post.


I find it ironic that an American or Brit, not sure, such as yourself, who's country is involved in a war that has killed thousands of innocents against the wishes of it's own citizenry and that of the global village should have such harsh judgments of Israels actions against an actual real and verified enemy.LOL, as you probably know by now, this Brit didn't agree with the war in Iraq in the first place, nor the wasting of chances to negotiate with people like Sadr from the first opportunity etc etc , but that's a story for another thread.


Whatever you and I may think is irrelevant, the decisions have been made and what is happening is happening. so be it.Two words: discussion board! :D


You calling me an idiot in context to the situation, as if it will do anything is...well, idiotic. lolI agree it would be idiotic... I didn't call you an idiot though: there was a conditional in my post.

Regards to you too, cheers for the discussion.

[Drake]

So do you talk during or after the daily rocket attacks? Or maybe establish a cease fire that isn't followed?

The problem lies in the fact that Hamas will not back off from the logic that Israel must be destroyed. It puts a damper on dialogue, don't you think?

[David Jamieson]

Israel's objective is to significantly disarm Hamas and to make it clear to them as well as those who support them that to raise arms against their nation is folly.

the very worst of these militants are the targets and it is the very worst of these that are throwing their own people into the fire to avoid having to deal with thei enemy face to face.


For instance, Northern Ireland. here is a close example as far a similar situation goes.

England occupies and fights the IRA for years.
The IRA eventually gets it and lays down their arms and becomes a political group instead of a militant group.
Peace talks occur.
Ireland is now a republic.

It took a while.

Israel is more willing to put their emotions aside in my opinion and to let bygones be bygones. By all appearances, electing a terrorist group and letting them set up tactical positions where you live indicates an unreadiness for statehood at this time for the palestinians.

but as fast as Hamas can drop the weapons and get to the table and as fast as the "obliteration of Israel" can be scrubbed form their doctrine is as fast as there can be statehood for palestinians. Who by the way already rejected it once before.

In my view Hamas must give up the way of the gun to succeed. they simply must or their way of life will continue to be just more of the chaos and turmoil that they bring upon themselves and "their" people.

In the meantime, I suggest you Brits get a stronger voice. there is clearly not enough objection to the war going on and if there was, like us canucks, you wouldn't be there. perhaps we can focus our efforts in bringing peace to afghanistan by bolstering it's citizenry and ousting yet another herd of terrorist gangsters from that country.

[bakxierboxer]

There are two possible solutions, right?

1) Talk. Keep talking. Be prepared to make some sacrifices on both sides while these nutters continue killing, but keep talking.

2) Kill them all. Be prepared to make some sacrifices on both sides but keep killing until you've killed all of the terrorists.

Unfortunately, in (2) you have two major problems:

a) You don't know who are terrorists and who aren't.
b) The more people you kill, the more survivors become terrorists, if not in Palestine then in other countries.

The only way to effectively carry out (2) by extension, would be to kill every Palestinian and eventually, of course, every Moslem. Genocide.

The extension to #2 and your conclusion is already "ratified" by the expression:
"Kill'em all and let GOD/ALLAH sort'em out!"



Israel's policy has always failed, and is still failing. That is because it is unworkable.

Because, in their silly humanitarian way, they've yet to try your conclusion in the extension of #2(b).



If you talk to people, build hospitals and schools, help them establish farms and meaningful work, you prevent more and more people from considering terrorism as an option and fewer and fewer people harbouring terrorists.
......

Talking, investment, rebuilding.

If there were ever a good case for a long-term international peacekeeping force protecting the building of infrastructure and conducting surgical strikes on known terrorists, it's here.

In the last real move towards peace, Israel gave up Gaza and the West Bank.
They left infrastructure for the benefit of those receiving the lands.
The Palestinians (of one sort or another) made quite a show of destroying what was left to them....the more spectacular (and least valuable) "the better".
This included highly productive greenhouses and hydroponics farms.
They taped that destruction, all the while thoroughly "denouncing" (for the benefit of any viewers)("publicity stunt" don'cha know?) the wily/hateful Israelis and swearing (again) to eliminate their awful enemy that simply/maliciously won't stop giving them "stuff".... Israel.

[BoulderDawg]

Lets stop giving Israel high tech weapons and providing professionals to show them how they work. Let's put Israel on equal footing with their Arab neighbors and then how how anxious they are to fight. It's pretty easy to say "Let's fight" when you're carrying an automatic weapon and the other guy has a stick!

[David Jamieson]

Lets stop giving Israel high tech weapons and providing professionals to show them how they work. Let's put Israel on equal footing with their Arab neighbors and then how how anxious they are to fight. It's pretty easy to say "Let's fight" when you're carrying an automatic weapon and the other guy has a stick!

uninformed

[uki]

uninformedignorant...

[Mr Punch]

I'm going to ignore bakxierboxer's flights of fancy and Drake's facetious question (dialogue's have occurred, are occurring even in this situation, and will continue to occur, thanks, yes, to Israel, and various other parties - of course not Hamas).

The other thing Israel could do is:

1) Allow, and even facilitate, the passage of aid... if they have some say in the aid they prevent the black market through the tunnels giving more taxes and control to Hamas, and win some favour with the starving impoverished Palestinians (one in two or more is in poverty).

2) Allow, and even facilitate, medical assistance from the Red Cross and other organisations (again, a concession to the ordinary Palestinian citizen).

3) Assist the evacuation of ordinary Palestinians. This would be a large undertaking, but imagine the effect... Instead of saying 'get out' and bombing them in their designated shelters, or on their way to nowhere, they could provide trucks and safe havens: of course they search and control everyone who gets on, so no suicide bombers etc, and those terrorists who do get through don't have any access to any weapons.

All of the above could win over all of the war-sickened Palestinians who already think Hamas are scum, would take away any accusations from Hamas, wouldn't be so difficult to do as part of the military planning (there are already checkpoints everywhere and vehicles going each way) and would take away the accusations of anti-humanitarianism while reinforcing their genuineness in their supposed objectives.

It would cost a lot of money, but various aid agencies and foreign governments are already pouring money into the area and are prepared to do more to stabilise the region.

Oh, and talk.

[David Jamieson]

I'm going to ignore bakxierboxer's flights of fancy and Drake's facetious question (dialogue's have occurred, are occurring even in this situation, and will continue to occur, thanks, yes, to Israel, and various other parties - of course not Hamas).

The other thing Israel could do is:

1) Allow, and even facilitate, the passage of aid... if they have some say in the aid they prevent the black market through the tunnels giving more taxes and control to Hamas, and win some favour with the starving impoverished Palestinians (one in two or more is in poverty).

2) Allow, and even facilitate, medical assistance from the Red Cross and other organisations (again, a concession to the ordinary Palestinian citizen).

3) Assist the evacuation of ordinary Palestinians. This would be a large undertaking, but imagine the effect... Instead of saying 'get out' and bombing them in their designated shelters, or on their way to nowhere, they could provide trucks and safe havens: of course they search and control everyone who gets on, so no suicide bombers etc, and those terrorists who do get through don't have any access to any weapons.

All of the above could win over all of the war-sickened Palestinians who already think Hamas are scum, would take away any accusations from Hamas, wouldn't be so difficult to do as part of the military planning (there are already checkpoints everywhere and vehicles going each way) and would take away the accusations of anti-humanitarianism while reinforcing their genuineness in their supposed objectives.

It would cost a lot of money, but various aid agencies and foreign governments are already pouring money into the area and are prepared to do more to stabilise the region.

Oh, and talk.

Well.

On point 1, I believe Israel is doing just that through the 3 hour ceasfires and the co-ordination of movements of aid with the IDF.

On Point 2 I think they are also doing this, but there has been some snags due to the inherent danger of functioning in a war zone.


On Point 3 that is a big ask. Not that it can't be done but there would definitely need to be no interference in this from Hamas. Unfortunately Hamas is more than willing to kill there own in an effort to make Israel appear bad in their propaganda releases.

The "war sickened palestinians" can probably use the 3 hour ceasefires to start making their way out of harms way. I don't think they will be won over all to soon by Israel as it is a matter of record that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their agenda and reject peace with Israel. It has been steady escalation to this point as it is. I don't think the outside world has answers. I think the people need to move from harms way, expose the embedded army and let the course of it run.

then talk. Definitely, sit down and talk. It is hard to hold talks in a bee hive of killer bees. They (Hamas) have to be taken out of the equation first.

[BoulderDawg]

uninformed

Right...Right

Of course everyone who doesn't see your point of view is "uniformed"!:D

The truth is there have been close to 800 Palestians die in this conflict....There have been 10 Israelis........

What part of "Israeli has superior techonogy and weapons" do you disagree with?

What part of "If there was a level playing field Israel would be less prone to fight" do you disagree with?

[David Jamieson]

Right...Right

Of course everyone who doesn't see your point of view is "uniformed"!:D

The truth is there have been close to 800 Palestians die in this conflict....There have been 10 Israelis........

What part of "Israeli has superior techonogy and weapons" do you disagree with?

What part of "If there was a level playing field Israel would be less prone to fight" do you disagree with?

Not exactly. My reference was directly towards what you posted which by example of your post demonstrated that you are uninformed.

As for the truth, you, like I have no clear picture, so making bold statements further reveals you are uninformed. Please stick to the facts and keep your own emotional viewpoints out of it and the discussion can progress a lot further.

As for your uninformed comment about "level playing fields" let me tell you this.
In the region, Israel is the only democratic nation. It holds approximately 1% of the land in the area and when it first declared independence was attacked by it's neighbours , all arab nations, within days of that declaration in an attempt to destroy the newfound nation. In the 6 day war, this was attempted again. the arab nations who undertook to destroy Israel were once again thwarted by Israel.

So, you tell me, is that a level playing field? hence you are uninformed. By all means, read up, catch up in this thread and continue on, It is a worthwhile discussion seeing as we can otherwise only do that.

How do you feel about terrorists embedding themselves with 20,000 armed men, with Russian guns by the way, in a civilian populace and rigging traps all throughout the city of Gaza and killing their own indiscriminately to forward their agenda of teh obliteration of Israel?

So, maybe you can see where you do not have the required information to eneter the discussion and perhaps maybe you can accept that you are uninformed or at the very least ill informed?

[BoulderDawg]

Not exactly. My reference was directly towards what you posted which by example of your post demonstrated that you are uninformed.

As for the truth, you, like I have no clear picture, so making bold statements further reveals you are uninformed. Please stick to the facts and keep your own emotional viewpoints out of it and the discussion can progress a lot further.

As for your uninformed comment about "level playing fields" let me tell you this.
In the region, Israel is the only democratic nation. It holds approximately 1% of the land in the area and when it first declared independence was attacked by it's neighbours , all arab nations, within days of that declaration in an attempt to destroy the newfound nation. In the 6 day war, this was attempted again. the arab nations who undertook to destroy Israel were once again thwarted by Israel.

So, you tell me, is that a level playing field? hence you are uninformed. By all means, read up, catch up in this thread and continue on, It is a worthwhile discussion seeing as we can otherwise only do that.

:)

The numbers speak for themselves: 800 deaths verses 10...That's as clear cut as it gets.

I have no idea what the 6 days war has to do with the current situation. I have no idea why that would make it a level playing field.

If the Palestians have a equal amount of weapons technology to use I would suggest that someone tell them about it.

[BoulderDawg]

One other thing: Israel is NOT a democratic nation. If you are an Arab living in Israel then you are a second class citizen.....You have very few rights...Of course voting is NOT one of them.

[David Jamieson]

The numbers speak for themselves: 800 deaths verses 10...That's as clear cut as it gets.

I have no idea what the 6 days war has to do with the current situation. I have no idea why that would make it a level playing field.

If the Palestians have a equal amount of weapons technology to use I would suggest that someone tell them about it.

Very well, let me help you.

How many of those 800 are civs? Let me tell you. approximately 25% the rest are Hamas militants according to every news agency except for al jazeera :rolleyes:

the fact that you have no idea what the 6 day war is is the default why you shouldn't be making bold statements, accusations or throwing statistics around as if they mean something when you yourself do not understand their meaning.

The war is not with the Palestinians, if it was, it would be over and done with years ago. The assault is targeting Hamas specifically.

Please read more, cite more, become informed, it is a worthwhile subject to understand and the benefits of understanding this conflict are far reaching into understanding your own nations foreign policies and positions and perhaps can further your involvement with your own voice towards your own government as it does for millions around the world.

as opposed to making yourself look a little stupid on a forum that is far and removed from it.

But nevertheless, Max has brought it here for us to discuss.

[David Jamieson]

One other thing: Israel is NOT a democratic nation. If you are an Arab living in Israel then you are a second class citizen.....You have very few rights...Of course voting is NOT one of them.

Again, something uninformed.

Do you know what the Knesset is? Do you know that Arab Israelis sit in Israel Government? Do you know that Arab Israelis serve in the IDF?

[sanjuro_ronin]

There will never be peace in the ME.
No one "wants it".
Compromise is out of the question and there is to much generational hatred on all sides for it to just "go away".
Arabs would have to recognize Israel
Israel would have to "give up" territory
Water rights would have to be agreed on
And so much more...

[David Jamieson]

There will never be peace in the ME.
No one "wants it".
Compromise is out of the question and there is to much generational hatred on all sides for it to just "go away".
Arabs would have to recognize Israel
Israel would have to "give up" territory
Water rights would have to be agreed on
And so much more...

Arabs reconizing Isarel is the biggest problem.

Israel negotiating territory in exchange for lasting peace is doable.

Water rights is doable.

the problem from my point of view is allowing the islamic fundamentalist extremists have the voice for the arab peoples. We see how teh Taliban functions, we see how Hamas and Hezzbolla functions, we see how all teh permutations of these groups function and we see clearly in their charters that their agenda is the destruction of Israel.

I think that Israel has shown remarkable restraint through it all considering they could dash them to pieces if they chose to do so.

People foaming at the mouths calling Israel this or that are ridiculous and have succumbed to the fundamentalist propaganda.

[Mr Punch]

Well.

On point 1, I believe Israel is doing just that through the 3 hour ceasfires and the co-ordination of movements of aid with the IDF...
On Point 2...Did they have more than one three-hour ceasefire? If so, I missed it. If not, one three-hour ceasefire is a joke over however many days of fighting. Plus all of the aid agencies' reports and Red Cross etc were saying they still weren't allowed in, plus the aid ship that was rammed by the Israeli gun boat, and aid workers who have been targeted etc. It is not only Islamic news that's reporting this: it's everywhere.

If they are serious about not wanting to fail the ordinary Palestinians they could provide armed cover for the aid wagons, for example. Sure, this and Point 3 are big deals... but none of this **** is ever going to be easy: it just takes courage of your convictions.


On Point 3 that is a big ask. Not that it can't be done but there would definitely need to be no interference in this from Hamas. Unfortunately Hamas is more than willing to kill there own in an effort to make Israel appear bad in their propaganda releases.Of Hamas would interfere. Again, it's not going to put the Israeli army in any more difficult a situation than they already are. Hamas already knows where to find them and how to target them - what would change except they'd be helping people who would probably then view them more favourably.


The "war sickened palestinians" can probably use the 3 hour ceasefires to start making their way out of harms way. Orphaned kids, families with seriously wounded members, destroyed vehicles, no food, no money, on the verge of starvation... are to move where in three hours? The Israelis aren't even letting people into Egypt, apart from the small matter of Egypt already having close to a million Palestinian refugees.


I don't think they will be won over all to soon by Israel as it is a matter of record that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and their agenda and reject peace with Israel. It has been steady escalation to this point as it is.I think a lot of Palestinians are fed up with Hamas, and Fatah, and constantly being sandwiched between the two and Israel. If Israel were the only group helping them, Hamas and Fatah would have to start protecting and looking after the poeple and cleaning their act up... just like it was in N.I. when the British took the army out of the equation and started helping people to rebuild their communities showing the IRA and UDF for the bunch of loonies that they were.

The all to soon bit...? Well, they've all been taking pieces out of each other since before the State of Israel was created, so I don't think anyone's expecting a cakewalk, but we do KNOW their actions now (Hamas AND Israel) are just perpetuating it for the next however many generations.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Arabs reconizing Isarel is the biggest problem.

Israel negotiating territory in exchange for lasting peace is doable.

Water rights is doable.

the problem from my point of view is allowing the islamic fundamentalist extremists have the voice for the arab peoples. We see how teh Taliban functions, we see how Hamas and Hezzbolla functions, we see how all teh permutations of these groups function and we see clearly in their charters that their agenda is the destruction of Israel.

I think that Israel has shown remarkable restraint through it all considering they could dash them to pieces if they chose to do so.

People foaming at the mouths calling Israel this or that are ridiculous and have succumbed to the fundamentalist propaganda.

I will say this, IF Israel wanted to wipe them off the face of the Earth, they very well could.
So yes, they do show restraint.
Sad thing is the closest we have been to "peace" was with Rabin and Arafat and look how that ended.
Unless some "saviour" comes out and some how manages to get the main people talking, I don't foresee much in my lifetime...

[David Jamieson]

Mr.Punch. Israel could Level Gaza in a few seconds. This is not their goal nor their intention. Obviously, or it would be done and over with.

[David Jamieson]

I will say this, IF Israel wanted to wipe them off the face of the Earth, they very well could.
So yes, they do show restraint.
Sad thing is the closest we have been to "peace" was with Rabin and Arafat and look how that ended.
Unless some "saviour" comes out and some how manages to get the main people talking, I don't foresee much in my lifetime...

I somewhat agree, but I don't think the onus is on Israel. It's on the arab nations to recognize the validity of Israels statehood.

the arab nations make up over 99% of the region. The terrorist groups want the obliteration of Israel.
It is up to the arab nations to recognize Israel and rid themselves of the fundamentalist terror groups that are otherwise being fostered and supplied by them.

My support still goes to Israel. I sympathize with the palestinians, but they can make choices to not support these terrorists and to not support their crimes in favour of peace and let go of their hatred towards anyone who is not islamic, which is a backward and frankly destructive viewpoint with no result but chaos and destruction.

Here, where I am, in this place and in this world, I support Israels right to statehood and their right to defend themselves from the nations who surround them and the groups who want their annihilation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Israel needs a good PR person.

:D

I support Israel right to exist AND defend itself.
I also support the right for the existence of a Palestinian State.
I think that ALL countries found to support terrorism should be cut-off from the world market, INCLUDING the Saudi's.
I think that the big problem in the ME is the Arabs and their disregard for THEIR fellow man, unless it meets their needs.

[David Jamieson]

Israel needs a good PR person.

:D

I support Israel right to exist AND defend itself.
I also support the right for the existence of a Palestinian State.
I think that ALL countries found to support terrorism should be cut-off from the world market, INCLUDING the Saudi's.
I think that the big problem in the ME is the Arabs and their disregard for THEIR fellow man, unless it meets their needs.

I agree with all your points.
Frankly, if it was just you and I discussing this, it would be a boring conversation. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with all your points.
Frankly, if it was just you and I discussing this, it would be a boring conversation. :)

True, so, some spice !
Israel must Fall !!
For that will usher in Armegedon and after that, a new beginning, a heaven on Earth !!
:p

[David Jamieson]

True, so, some spice !
Israel must Fall !!
For that will usher in Armegedon and after that, a new beginning, a heaven on Earth !!
:p

Israel cannot fall! It will be a failure for humanity as a whole and will give further credence to the terrorist organizations coming from arab nations and embedding themselves in global society that will bring about our destruction!

Kill them all, do it now before it's too late!!

Unfortunately, it is the only mechanism we as humans have for dealing with these nihilistic *******s!


(disclaimer, this is merely an extreme counterpoint and not my actual view)

[SimonM]

CYA disclaimers aside I'd like to point out you just advocated for genocide. That's not even funny.

Bad form man; bad, bad form.

[BoulderDawg]

Very well, let me help you.

How many of those 800 are civs? Let me tell you. approximately 25% the rest are Hamas militants according to every news agency except for al jazeera :rolleyes:

the fact that you have no idea what the 6 day war is is the default why you shouldn't be making bold statements, accusations or throwing statistics around as if they mean something when you yourself do not understand their meaning.

The war is not with the Palestinians, if it was, it would be over and done with years ago. The assault is targeting Hamas specifically.

Please read more, cite more, become informed, it is a worthwhile subject to understand and the benefits of understanding this conflict are far reaching into understanding your own nations foreign policies and positions and perhaps can further your involvement with your own voice towards your own government as it does for millions around the world.

as opposed to making yourself look a little stupid on a forum that is far and removed from it.

But nevertheless, Max has brought it here for us to discuss.


You replied to my post, but you're not in the least addressing what I wrote. Instead you're letting your emotions some into play and are blindly namecalling.

I said "I have no idea what the 6 day war has to do with the current situation" You read that as "You have no idea what the 6 day war was"....How did you arrive at that?

The question is still out there: What does the 6 day war have to do with the current sitaution?

Also, No matter what the percentage killed is (it could be a 100% Hamas) it's still 800 to 10. Also, (even if your numbers are right) it strenghtens my argument. That makes it 600 combat soldiers to 10......Hardly a level playing field? Also, in my post I mentioned nothing of civilians getting killed.

You are trying to change the entire argument. Just answer a simple question: How is it a level playing field?

Also, needless of any representation, Arabs do not have the right to vote.

[David Jamieson]

You replied to my post, but you're not in the least addressing what I wrote. Instead you're letting your emotions some into play and are blindly namecalling.

I said "I have no idea what the 6 day war has to do with the current situation" You read that as "You have no idea what the 6 day war was"....How did you arrive at that?

The question is still out there: What does the 6 day war have to do with the current sitaution?

Also, No matter what the percentage killed is (it could be a 100% Hamas) it's still 800 to 10. Also, (even if your numbers are right) it strenghtens my argument. That makes it 600 combat soldiers to 10......Hardly a level playing field? Also, in my post I mentioned nothing of civilians getting killed.

You are trying to change the entire argument. Just answer a simple question: How is it a level playing field?

Also, needless of any representation, Arabs do not have the right to vote.

BD- things don't happen in a vacuum. read the timeline for the creation of teh state of Israel. there is where the 6 day war is relevant. The entire history is relevant as it leads right up to this point which is now.

Simon, I'm not sure you aren't just hating here. You have a lot of vitriol towards Israel. Some of it rightly so, but your view is highly biased towards the views of Hamas and that is where we disagree strongly I would say.

You can make whatever personal assessments you want, they make no difference and do not serve to further the discussion here.

[David Jamieson]

CYA disclaimers aside I'd like to point out you just advocated for genocide. That's not even funny.

Bad form man; bad, bad form.

this statement is bad form in and of itself. You are cherry picking for the sake of it.
Let me ask you, do you sympathize with Hamas? Have you read their charter? Do you think Israel should be obliterated? Do you agree that the history of the area is relevant to the situation now?

[lkfmdc]

The Hamas game works something like this

You and your mother are sitting on a park bench. I run up with a knife and take a slash at your mom. You get up and run after me. I pick up the neighbor's kid and hold him in my arms while you take a swing at me. I then contact my local TV network and decry you taking a swing at the neighbor's kid.... then a I run back to the bench with a knife looking for your mom

[Drake]

You want big bad Israel to stop? Easy. Convince hamas to stop attacking them. Problem solved.

[David Jamieson]

The Hamas game works something like this

You and your mother are sitting on a park bench. I run up with a knife and take a slash at your mom. You get up and run after me. I pick up the neighbor's kid and hold him in my arms while you take a swing at me. I then contact my local TV network and decry you taking a swing at the neighbor's kid.... then a I run back to the bench with a knife looking for your mom

In a nutshell, this is essentially correct in it's assessment.
the same rings true of al aqsa brigade, al qaueda, hezzbollah, et al.

I think we are exposed to a lot of propaganda from these organizations and because of that exposure, we lose site of the meaning of the conflict and it seems that some misplace their sympathies or are ill informed or don't want to understand the history of the situation or you name it.

some are even just hating on jews because, well why not, it seems to be a pastime in some parts of the west and excused because of these circumstance to do so.

that's the sick part to me. the fact that all these hate groups and sites can pump out whatever they like and people gradually migrate their own thinking to those vile memes.

Now that is disgusting. If you don't think it's true, just have a look at the big conspiracy sites which are all about hating jews through proxy of hating israel.

Israel is jews, arabs and christians. There are brigades in teh IDF that are entirely muslim commandos. How many knew that? raise your hand? how many realize that teh Israeli government is made of Jews, Christians, muslims, and every sort of person and belief system that lives in Israel?

The amount of ignorance is ridiculous. If this was genocide, it would be over and done with. It's not, it is a defensive procedure to reduce the amount of armed militants that threaten the everyday lives of Israelis and Palestinians.

[lkfmdc]

There are inter-related problems in the Middle East

First of all, you have massive poverty and poor education. People who are unhappy and don't have all the facts are easily manipulated, so you have extremist groups capitalizing on this. Arafat and the PLO were purely political and pulled the "jihad" and the "Jew conspiracy" card all the time. I have a feeling the current Islamic extremists also aren't 100% driven by pure "ideology"

The second problem is that all media caters to what will "sell". The media in the middle east isn't interested in "truth" (nor would the US or western media if it wasn't for law, oversight and the possibility of being caught BTW), they are interested in ratings. Their audience is the uneducated masses who are discontent.

Finally, most middle eastern countries are ruled by an elite who are abusing their own people to their own ends. It is much easier to distract your population by blaming Israel then address your own injustice, economic explotation and infrastructure problems

[MasterKiller]

You want big bad Israel to stop? Easy. Convince hamas to stop attacking them. Problem solved.

If Isreal would give up the land that it illegaly obtained in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golan Heights, and Gaza Strip, they probably wouldn't get rockets lobbed at them so often.

[lkfmdc]

If Isreal would give up the land that it obtained when it was illegally attacked for no reason by the Arab states, they'd still probably get rockets lobbed at them because the Arabs don't want them to exist.

There, fixed that for you

[AJM]

Oh yeah, this is a bit off topic and sure to lead to some great dialogue. :D
Yes, like where is the outrage about the Congo and other hot spots.

[David Jamieson]

There are inter-related problems in the Middle East

First of all, you have massive poverty and poor education. People who are unhappy and don't have all the facts are easily manipulated, so you have extremist groups capitalizing on this. Arafat and the PLO were purely political and pulled the "jihad" and the "Jew conspiracy" card all the time. I have a feeling the current Islamic extremists also aren't 100% driven by pure "ideology"

The second problem is that all media caters to what will "sell". The media in the middle east isn't interested in "truth" (nor would the US or western media if it wasn't for law, oversight and the possibility of being caught BTW), they are interested in ratings. Their audience is the uneducated masses who are discontent.

Finally, most middle eastern countries are ruled by an elite who are abusing their own people to their own ends. It is much easier to distract your population by blaming Israel then address your own injustice, economic explotation and infrastructure problems

we have to stop agreeing or we could hurt our reputation here.

seriously though, I totally agree with you 100%.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, like where is the outrage about the Congo and other hot spots.

This is as valid a point as well.
the genocides that really are occurring don't get a lot of press or a lot of attention because for the most part there is nothing to be gained politically or financially from those regions.

If you would like to start a thread about it, I would participate. My wife's aunt is a member of the African Union Commision and I can, through her, access all sorts of relevant information in regards to what is going on.

I think that in regards to that, there is also, for America, the greater question of what to do about Liberia not to mention the piracy situation that the US Navy has just engaged in via their admiralcy, the genocide in Sudan, the Oil thefts in Nigeria, the violence in Niger, the poverty in Burkina Faso and the general state of destruction that is happening there.

Most of us here on this forum are completely oblivious to many of the worlds problems simply because we are insulated from them by our media, our government and in a lot of cases our own disinterest.

Once we start hearing about things and seeing things, we tend to react, but it is empty reaction like what we have here. An argument and name calling on a discussion board that is entirely unrelated.

it is a form of awareness I suppose and if it can cause only one person to consciously take positive action without doing or bringing harm, then it's worth it.

But, visit your political representatives website and spend teh time to write something to them. Make your views known. Offer thoughts and possible solutions taht they can put on the table where it counts.

good point ajm!

[Pork Chop]

we have to stop agreeing or we could hurt our reputation here.

seriously though, I totally agree with you 100%.

Yeah, Ross is saying everything I've wanted to say since the first post on this thread - but much more eloquently than I ever could've put it.

The only problems I have with Israel's actions are more akin to these:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSKRA25614320080423
Hard to keep considering someone your friend when they keep stealing your homework.

[AJM]

I don't want to make what is happening in Gaza seem unnewsworthy. It's a terrible tragedy. I just wanted to point out that there are other terrible tragedies going on as well.
David might find this of interest. Not open warfare, but the San people of Namibia and South Africa (probably the first humans according to Dr. Spencer Wells) are being systematically driven further into the desert and bush because of diamonds and gold. They are not really bush people and are not adapting well. There are darn few of them left.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't want to make what is happening in Gaza seem unnewsworthy. It's a terrible tragedy. I just wanted to point out that there are other terrible tragedies going on as well.
David might find this of interest. Not open warfare, but the San people of Namibia and South Africa (probably the first humans according to Dr. Spencer Wells) are being systematically driven further into the desert and bush because of diamonds and gold. They are not really bush people and are not adapting well. There are darn few of them left.


You really don't have to go further than our own backyard for that. The biggest holocaust in recorded history happened right here in North America against the indians of almost every tribe on the continent.

[AJM]

Sadly you are correct.

[Lucas]

the messed up part about the natives in the americas, was the amount of differing countries and nations involved in the enslaving and destruction of these people.

it wasnt like one nation against another, how we see this happen many times. it was an effort put forward by nearly every nation to visit these lands.

[IronWeasel]

If Isreal would give up the land that it illegaly obtained in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golan Heights, and Gaza Strip, they probably wouldn't get rockets lobbed at them so often.



I rolled my eyes so far back into my head that I fell off my chair.:eek:

[Drake]

Can we get some ^&%$ing global outrage over THIS, please?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/09/hamas.sketch/index.html

[bakxierboxer]

I'm going to ignore bakxierboxer's flights of fancy...

No problem.
OTOH, video of that destruction was on "mainstream" network news

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i am intentionally and blissfully ignorant on politics and world events. i never cease to amaze my friends with the things i don't know. i have no idea why isreal and gaza are fighting, and while i feel terrible for the civilian victims, i don't care to learn any more about it.

i do however frequent ogrish, and happened across a collection of pictures from gaza on the forums. i don't know if these would be classified as work safe or not, but they certainly aren't meant for anyone with a weak stomach. i've become a little more desensitised to such media than i care to admit over the years, but there are some pictures on this link that brought tears to my eyes. ive seen more graphic gore, but few pictures have captured this level of sadness.

http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

[BoulderDawg]

The is like being out with your son who's being a real A hole and picks a fight with someone much better than him. Well the fights over in a matter of minutes but the guy is still on top of your son pounding away at a man that can barely lift his head. Of course the father is going to join in the fight no matter if his son was right or wrong.

This is whats happening in Gaza. The people there have no choice. They have to fight because the Israelis are trying to kill everyone there and there's no where to go.

I hate bullies......Especially ones who feel they are justified becuase the other guy started it.

[David Jamieson]

The is like being out with your son who's being a real A hole and picks a fight with someone much better than him. Well the fights over in a matter of minutes but the guy is still on top of your son pounding away at a man that can barely lift his head. Of course the father is going to join in the fight no matter if his son was right or wrong.

This is whats happening in Gaza. The people there have no choice. They have to fight because the Israelis are trying to kill everyone there and there's no where to go.

I hate bullies......Especially ones who feel they are justified becuase the other guy started it.

you can't be serious. If Israel wanted to "kill everybody there" it would be done.

such sensationalist alarmist crap.

you have no idea of the situation and yet you sit here and spout things like this.

terrific! good for you!

[IronWeasel]

you can't be serious. If Israel wanted to "kill everybody there" it would be done.


..........




This.:cool:

[Infrazael]

**** Israel, **** the jews.

[AJM]

The plan is succeeding. There are normally rational people calling to turn the whole area into a parking lot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The plan is succeeding. There are normally rational people calling to turn the whole area into a parking lot.

I don't think there is a need to insult parking Lots.